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Day 41 of the Truss premiership and some terrible front pages – politicalbetting.com

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  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    But it might not since cash purchasers (who form the majority of BTL landlords and other property "investors" last time I saw) would evade the tax. Also those who've paid off their mortgage wouldn't be paying the tax or incentivised to downsize or not hold multiple properties.

    Taxes should be simple but consistent, if you're going to tax land then tax land, don't tax mortgages.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913

    .

    Leon said:

    Oof. About to go to Heathrow for an agreeable and extended trip abroad


    But a couple of faint symptoms of covid. And I have been socialising a fair bit recently


    MORAL DILEMMA

    Ignore the symptoms (they are minor) get on the plane and see more of the world?

    Or take a test, risk a positive: be forced to stay home and also inconvenience quite a few people?

    No dilemma, get on the plane. Testing is not required anymore.
    No LEGAL dilemma.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the
    calamity of her first month in office!
    You’ve changed

    Truss is a libertarian not a Tory who is trashing the party and leading it sleepwalking to its worst defeat since 1832 on current polls.

    She has until the local elections to turn it round or she is gone
    Why should it be the poor local councillors who have to be stuck with the fork to tell us what we all know

    "Yep, she's done...."

    Get rid before Christmas, start the New Year as afresh as this parliamentary party can muster.
    Boris and May only went after poor local election results in May 2019 and May 2022 respectively, Truss will likely be the same
    Come on. Boris and May did not go because of poor local election results.
    That was the catalyst
  • Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    Yes. The battle to win it back is far from over.
    It's not over for North Korea either.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Which of the following do you think would make the best prime minister? (11-12 Oct)

    Keir Starmer: 42% (-1 from 6-7 Oct)
    Liz Truss: 13% (-1)
    Not sure: 41% (+2)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/13/voting-intention-con-23-lab-51-11-12-oct-2022 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1580496391985459201/photo/1

    Even now, Sir Keir is barely struggling to beat "not sure" (which, of course, means "neither"). Time for him to start telling us what he would do.
    Yes, Starmer's in real trouble isn't he, especially compared to Truss? At least Truss has told us what she'd do. However....
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    Yes. The battle to win it back is far from over.
    Win it back from who? The financial markets? Because you don't achieve that by going into more debt to them, which is exactly what Truss is doing it. All for tax cuts for the rich and a massively inefficiently designed energy subsidy.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Carnyx said:



    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the calamity of her first month in office!
    I’m a monarchist but I don’t like this. Ask yourself: why did this stuff never happen to the Queen?

    Because she had impeccable manners and knew how to behave as a monarch

    Even if there was no malign intent in KC3’s mutterings (and how can anyone be sure?) they can certainly be interpreted as dissing the elected Prime Minister. And that is really bad - for the Monarchy

    A few years of it could turn me into a republican. It’s the one single thing they must not do. KC3 needs to kick out the cameras if he can’t control his words

    I agree but we have to remember that Charles is quite old (and not doing nearly as well as his mother or father did in respect of ageing), seriously stupid and quite new at the job. It is completely unrealistic that he is going to perform to the impeccable standards of his mother but he will hopefully improve.
    'seriously stupid'

    Lol!
    Were Victoria and Elisabeth the only two properly smart British monarchs of the last 200 years? Even longer maybe..
    Go back to 1625 and add Cromwell and you might have a point. I also wonder how far Vicky relied on darling Albert, who was a seriously serious cookie by comparison with a lot of the formal kings.
    I reckon young George has got a chance to shine here, if and when of course he gets his chance! Kate has provided a significant benefit to the gene pool, having no aristocratic background!
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Ole Penny is a far better communicator than Truss (in parliament now). Though that’s not a high bar to cross
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The higher debt interest bills, twice what the OBR expected in March, are extraordinarily politically painful because they buy nothing: no new police officers, doctors or hospitals https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/kwasi-vs-the-markets
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    I’m not wrong. A young Ursula von der Leyen




    *Fans self with covid test packet*
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 698

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    You're the chump who can't understand the meaning of the word "deterrence".

    As long as the war doesn't escalate to WMDs then we will not get directly involved, that is our red line, as it should. If it does, then we absolutely should and must.
    Actually you’re a chump who doesn’t understand why tactical nukes were invented in the first place. The whole idea is to provide a military option which falls short of all out nuclear war but levels the conventional playing field. Back in the day NATO were keen on them because they could never hope to defeat an all out invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets conventionally. In my opinion that is a highly dangerous doctrine as it would probably lead to escalation but to threaten to immediately fire our strategic nukes as soon as a tactical nuke is just suicidal.
  • .

    Leon said:

    Oof. About to go to Heathrow for an agreeable and extended trip abroad


    But a couple of faint symptoms of covid. And I have been socialising a fair bit recently


    MORAL DILEMMA

    Ignore the symptoms (they are minor) get on the plane and see more of the world?

    Or take a test, risk a positive: be forced to stay home and also inconvenience quite a few people?

    No dilemma, get on the plane. Testing is not required anymore.
    No LEGAL dilemma.
    Depends on airline and where you are flying. Not unusual to have to declare no symptoms. IANAL but assume false declarations could create potential legal issues either abroad or as a civil matter.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    Don’t worry, a small tactical nuke won’t be met by an overwhelming nuclear response.

    It’ll be met by an overwhelming conventional response. Overwhelming, as in every NATO country throwing everything it has available against the Russian military. There won’t be a Black Sea fleet, and there won’t be dozens of bases from which further attacks might be launched.
    Yes, my expectation would be a conventional escalation.
    It will be a conventional escalation, NATO doesn’t want a nuclear war. There will be *one* opportunity for Russia to back down, and very quickly. Leave Ukraine by tomorrow, or face what they know would be coming.
  • Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    You're the chump who can't understand the meaning of the word "deterrence".

    As long as the war doesn't escalate to WMDs then we will not get directly involved, that is our red line, as it should. If it does, then we absolutely should and must.
    Actually you’re a chump who doesn’t understand why tactical nukes were invented in the first place. The whole idea is to provide a military option which falls short of all out nuclear war but levels the conventional playing field. Back in the day NATO were keen on them because they could never hope to defeat an all out invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets conventionally. In my opinion that is a highly dangerous doctrine as it would probably lead to escalation but to threaten to immediately fire our strategic nukes as soon as a tactical nuke is just suicidal.
    Deterrence has succeeded in avoiding nuclear escalation for over three quarters of a century.

    I won't reject that for the usual suspects here wanting to be apologists for Putin's aggression.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Sandpit said:

    I think talk like this is very dangerous. It's tantamount to giving Putin permission to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

    The Kyiv Independent
    @KyivIndependent
    ·
    18m
    ⚡️ Macron: France won’t strike Russia if it nukes Ukraine.

    "Our doctrine is based on the fundamental interests of (our) nation, and they are clearly defined. If there were a nuclear ballistic attack in Ukraine, these interests would not be called into question," said Macron.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1580481219564687360

    Whatever happened to strategic ambiguity?
    I watched the clip hoping to summarize it and I think it's pretty strategically ambiguous...

    He says clearly that a nuclear attack on Ukraine wouldn't be a nuclear attack on France under its doctrine, which I think is obvious and doesn't give anything away. Then he says Russia has a responsibility not to escalate the conflict in either direction, either vertically (chemical or nuclear weapons) or horizontally (widening the territory involved in the conflict) which you could take to mean that if Russia used chemical or nuclear weapons, either NATO would get directly involved in Ukraine, or NATO would attack Russia, or NATO would arm Ukraine so that they could attack Russia.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 698

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    And on that should hangs the fate of humanity. What if it doesn’t work in deterring Putin? You either don’t escalate and prove yourself toothless or you doom every single person in the country.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    If Truss can get the Tory share in the polls back up to 30% she's probably safe in the medium-term, which might happen over the next couple of months. Of course that's why everyone who wants to get rid of her wants to do it as quickly as possible, in case her position does recover slightly.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    Don’t worry, a small tactical nuke won’t be met by an overwhelming nuclear response.

    It’ll be met by an overwhelming conventional response. Overwhelming, as in every NATO country throwing everything it has available against the Russian military. There won’t be a Black Sea fleet, and there won’t be dozens of bases from which further attacks might be launched.
    That ends in the same place as a nuclear response so you might as well go with Bart Stromberg's Trident launch and save a few a days on the way to the extirpation of modern civilisation in the Northern Hemisphere.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    Every single one of your alter egos knows this is bullshit, and yet you persist in peddling it endlessly.

    Almost like you are trying to convince yourselves...
  • Scott_xP said:

    The higher debt interest bills, twice what the OBR expected in March, are extraordinarily politically painful because they buy nothing: no new police officers, doctors or hospitals https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/kwasi-vs-the-markets

    Which brings us back to a question not really being asked in the papers.

    Even if we were going to do the Kamikwaze budget, seeing as it mostly applies from April, why not announce it in April rather than September and have an extra seven months of lower government debt, and lower mortgage costs for homeowners?

    Who knows, maybe by April the Ukraine war might have ended and some of the Kamikwaze stuff would have been affordable by then?

    Just incredulous stupidity.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    But it might not since cash purchasers (who form the majority of BTL landlords and other property "investors" last time I saw) would evade the tax. Also those who've paid off their mortgage wouldn't be paying the tax or incentivised to downsize or not hold multiple properties.

    Taxes should be simple but consistent, if you're going to tax land then tax land, don't tax mortgages.
    This is not precluding a land tax in any way, the main intent is so governement has a lever they can pull when houses are in an inflationary spiral and needs to be damped down. Therefore as the number of cash buyers is actually small compared to the total number of buyers it would still work. Revenue raised is a secondary effect and if house prices are stable I would expect the extra to approach 0%
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    It has been made very clear to the Russian high command that the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be met by a devastating conventional response from NATO.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    Yes. The battle to win it back is far from over.
    It's not over for North Korea either.
    It's very straightforward to regain sovereignty from the markets. Just don't depend on them. Don't spend more than you have got. Don't be in a trillion pounds worth of debt.
    Unfortunately this is one of those 'I wouldn't have started from here' situations.
  • Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    You're the chump who can't understand the meaning of the word "deterrence".

    As long as the war doesn't escalate to WMDs then we will not get directly involved, that is our red line, as it should. If it does, then we absolutely should and must.
    Actually you’re a chump who doesn’t understand why tactical nukes were invented in the first place. The whole idea is to provide a military option which falls short of all out nuclear war but levels the conventional playing field. Back in the day NATO were keen on them because they could never hope to defeat an all out invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets conventionally. In my opinion that is a highly dangerous doctrine as it would probably lead to escalation but to threaten to immediately fire our strategic nukes as soon as a tactical nuke is just suicidal.
    Deterrence has succeeded in avoiding nuclear escalation for over three quarters of a century.

    I won't reject that for the usual suspects here wanting to be apologists for Putin's aggression.
    For a libertarian that is inconsistent- Most libertarians would not want the state to decide (or risk it ) when they die
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    When A&E Stats were first recorded in current format October 2010 there were precisely Zero / Nil/ Nada people waiting 12 hrs

    12 years later the same figure shows more than 32.000 (9.6% of everyone attending) waited more than 12 hrs

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/ae-waiting-times-and-activity/ae-attendances-and-emergency-admissions-2022-23/

    And in Wales? And Scotland? It will be similar there too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    edited October 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    You’re a pathetic coward. A fucking appeaser

    We should say to Putin that if he moves a single division to a NATO border we will nuke Moscow and destroy St Petersburg. No, if he moves a single battalion

    No, if another Russian soldier moves more than ten metres

    No. If just one rifle is aimed west

    No, if Putin does a single poo west of Moscow that’s it. Nukes. No more restrooms in Smolensk for you, Vladimir. We’ve got captain @BartholomewRoberts manning the red button, and if you do a single jobby this side of the Urals we bravely flush you down the Khazi of history even tho it means everyone in the world immediately dies in frantic and fiery agony
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited October 2022

    Ole Penny is a far better communicator than Truss (in parliament now). Though that’s not a high bar to cross

    Penny probably dodged a bit of a bullet in all honesty. She was on board the tax cut train too throughout the campaign. I have to set aside my prejudices to say there is a chance she could easily have been in Truss’ position right now, albeit I don’t think she would have made the situation worse by being a sh*t communicator.

    She might end up getting the job anyway, but having seen the whole “slash tax” argument crash and burn allows her to play a more consensus-building tune.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,989
    edited October 2022
    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the calamity of her first month in office!
    I’m a monarchist but I don’t like this. Ask yourself: why did this stuff never happen to the Queen?

    Because she had impeccable manners and knew how to behave as a monarch

    Even if there was no malign intent in KC3’s mutterings (and how can anyone be sure?) they can certainly be interpreted as dissing the elected Prime Minister. And that is really bad - for the Monarchy

    A few years of it could turn me into a republican. It’s the one single thing they must not do. KC3 needs to kick out the cameras if he can’t control his words

    'elected'?
    She’s an MP. That’s our electoral system. If we don’t like it we can change it. Now we have Brexited we are a free and sovereign democracy once again
    As we were before we Brexited.
    Sovereign, in the sense of either accept everything or leave, yes.

    The People made their decision.
    Yep they did, which rather proves the point. We were/are sovereign.
    Perverse logic.

    If Scotland had Yes in 2014 would that have rather proven the point that they were sovereign pre-2014?
    No, because they only got the vote with the agreement of the UK government. Scotland had no legal route to unilaterally leaving the UK, without UK consent, so was not sovereign (and the same still applies). The UK was able to unilaterally leave the EU with no one else's permission, so it was sovereign.

    ETA: But it's somewhat semantics anyway. We pooled sovereignty in the EU and it's fair enough to object to that.
    As I said other countries explicitly grant parts of their own country the right to secede if they vote to do so, just as the EU does, its not unprecedented. As per your ETA if we pooled sovereignty in the EU then we clearly weren't fully sovereign, just as Nevis and New Caledonia aren't fully sovereign even though they have the right to become so just as we did. We had more sovereignty than them, but we weren't fully sovereign and now we are.

    Its fair to claim that pooling sovereignty was a good idea, because it was more beneficial than being fully sovereign if that's what you believe.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    edited October 2022

    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    You're the chump who can't understand the meaning of the word "deterrence".

    As long as the war doesn't escalate to WMDs then we will not get directly involved, that is our red line, as it should. If it does, then we absolutely should and must.
    Actually you’re a chump who doesn’t understand why tactical nukes were invented in the first place. The whole idea is to provide a military option which falls short of all out nuclear war but levels the conventional playing field. Back in the day NATO were keen on them because they could never hope to defeat an all out invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets conventionally. In my opinion that is a highly dangerous doctrine as it would probably lead to escalation but to threaten to immediately fire our strategic nukes as soon as a tactical nuke is just suicidal.
    Deterrence has succeeded in avoiding nuclear escalation for over three quarters of a century.

    I won't reject that for the usual suspects here wanting to be apologists for Putin's aggression.
    If nuclear weapons were Putin's ace in the hole, he'd have used them already.
  • Andy_JS said:

    If Truss can get the Tory share in the polls back up to 30% she's probably safe in the medium-term, which might happen over the next couple of months. Of course that's why everyone who wants to get rid of her wants to do it as quickly as possible, in case her position does recover slightly.

    Not at all, I simply want her gone in 2022 because of my Betfair book.......
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,964

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    In which case there likely would actually be a Russian nuke on London.

    Trident is to defend the UK as a last resort, not to attack a nuclear missiles armed power to defend a non NATO state
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Which brings us back to a question not really being asked in the papers.

    Even if we were going to do the Kamikwaze budget, seeing as it mostly applies from April, why not announce it in April rather than September and have an extra seven months of lower government debt, and lower mortgage costs for homeowners?

    Who knows, maybe by April the Ukraine war might have ended and some of the Kamikwaze stuff would have been affordable by then?

    Just incredulous stupidity.

    Arrogance.


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
  • Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    You're the chump who can't understand the meaning of the word "deterrence".

    As long as the war doesn't escalate to WMDs then we will not get directly involved, that is our red line, as it should. If it does, then we absolutely should and must.
    Actually you’re a chump who doesn’t understand why tactical nukes were invented in the first place. The whole idea is to provide a military option which falls short of all out nuclear war but levels the conventional playing field. Back in the day NATO were keen on them because they could never hope to defeat an all out invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets conventionally. In my opinion that is a highly dangerous doctrine as it would probably lead to escalation but to threaten to immediately fire our strategic nukes as soon as a tactical nuke is just suicidal.
    Deterrence has succeeded in avoiding nuclear escalation for over three quarters of a century.

    I won't reject that for the usual suspects here wanting to be apologists for Putin's aggression.
    For a libertarian that is inconsistent- Most libertarians would not want the state to decide (or risk it ) when they die
    I'm a libertarian not an anarchist, there is a role for the state and matters of war and self-defence are in my eyes self-evidently part of that.

    Preventing nuclear escalation via deterrence is a legitimate role for the state.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Leon said:

    I’m not wrong. A young Ursula von der Leyen




    *Fans self with covid test packet*

    She's a good looking woman now. Not exactly a shocking revelation that this was always the case. I'd be more impressed if you managed to discern that Merkel or Therese Coffey had been fit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329

    Leon said:

    I’m not wrong. A young Ursula von der Leyen




    *Fans self with covid test packet*

    She's a good looking woman now. Not exactly a shocking revelation that this was always the case. I'd be more impressed if you managed to discern that Merkel or Therese Coffey had been fit.
    Fair. I just wanted an excuse to check her out as a young woman. Oooooof
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Have you done your Covid test? If so what was the result?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
    “Build more homes” needs to be the starting point. Every solution requires building more homes.

    Anyone suggesting immigration as a solution to labour shortages, needs to be clear that more homes are required first.
  • Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
    “Build more homes” needs to be the starting point. Every solution requires building more homes.

    Anyone suggesting immigration as a solution to labour shortages, needs to be clear that more homes are required first.
    Kind of. Build more homes obviously comes with a time lag, so it will take longest to have an impact. The others can be much quicker, some very quickly. They all need to be done.
  • Stereodog said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    And on that should hangs the fate of humanity. What if it doesn’t work in deterring Putin? You either don’t escalate and prove yourself toothless or you doom every single person in the country.
    Then Putin has made his choice.

    What if Putin nukes London, should we not retaliate so that those of us living in the North West can survive escalation?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
    “Build more homes” needs to be the starting point. Every solution requires building more homes.

    Anyone suggesting immigration as a solution to labour shortages, needs to be clear that more homes are required first.
    In addition people have been saying the year on year rise is unsustainable and the market will self correct for the last 25 years...yet to happen and yes partly because politicians keep interfering to keep the spiral going
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited October 2022

    When A&E Stats were first recorded in current format October 2010 there were precisely Zero / Nil/ Nada people waiting 12 hrs

    12 years later the same figure shows more than 32.000 (9.6% of everyone attending) waited more than 12 hrs

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/ae-waiting-times-and-activity/ae-attendances-and-emergency-admissions-2022-23/

    And in Wales? And Scotland? It will be similar there too.
    5.8% in Scotland, this month, with graphs for previous data - situation generally deteriorating.

    https://publichealthscotland.scot/publications/nhs-performs-weekly-update-of-emergency-department-activity-and-waiting-time-statistics/nhs-performs-weekly-update-of-emergency-department-activity-and-waiting-time-statistics-week-ending-2-october-2022/

    This omits Shetland (tech issue) - which would tend slightly to improve the figures, it says.

    What I can't work out is hwo they deal with waits in ambulances. The English data seem to omit any waits in ambulances for up to 4 hours. But I may be misreading this.

    The English link: "The Monthly A&E Attendances and Emergency Admissions collection collects the total number of attendances in the calendar month for all A&E types, including Minor Injury Units and Walk-in Centres, and of these, the number discharged, admitted or transferred within four hours of arrival.

    Also included are the number of Emergency Admissions, and any waits of over four hours for admission following decision to admit."

    But Scottish criteria just say 'arrival' tout court.

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/nhsscotland-performance-against-ldp-standards/pages/accident-and-emergency-waiting-times/
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Wonder which book she took.
  • Cookie said:

    Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    Yes. The battle to win it back is far from over.
    It's not over for North Korea either.
    It's very straightforward to regain sovereignty from the markets. Just don't depend on them. Don't spend more than you have got. Don't be in a trillion pounds worth of debt.
    Unfortunately this is one of those 'I wouldn't have started from here' situations.
    Difficulty is that part of the Sovereignty some people want is to be free to spend like a sailor without consequences.

    And walking away from Eurorestrictions doesn't remove many of the consequences.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584
  • Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
    “Build more homes” needs to be the starting point. Every solution requires building more homes.

    Anyone suggesting immigration as a solution to labour shortages, needs to be clear that more homes are required first.
    In addition people have been saying the year on year rise is unsustainable and the market will self correct for the last 25 years...yet to happen and yes partly because politicians keep interfering to keep the spiral going
    There is a limit though. Central London prices went through what the rest of the country have been doing since 2010 a decade or so earlier, but the prices have flatlined here in nominal terms, decreased real terms, for the last six or seven years here. Expect the same to start happening over the rest of the country, apart from the most desirable areas, as the very well off are continuing to do very well despite the economic turmoil.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the calamity of her first month in office!
    I’m a monarchist but I don’t like this. Ask yourself: why did this stuff never happen to the Queen?

    Because she had impeccable manners and knew how to behave as a monarch

    Even if there was no malign intent in KC3’s mutterings (and how can anyone be sure?) they can certainly be interpreted as dissing the elected Prime Minister. And that is really bad - for the Monarchy

    A few years of it could turn me into a republican. It’s the one single thing they must not do. KC3 needs to kick out the cameras if he can’t control his words

    'elected'?
    She’s an MP. That’s our electoral system. If we don’t like it we can change it. Now we have Brexited we are a free and sovereign democracy once again
    As we were before we Brexited.
    Sovereign, in the sense of either accept everything or leave, yes.

    The People made their decision.
    Yep they did, which rather proves the point. We were/are sovereign.
    Perverse logic.

    If Scotland had Yes in 2014 would that have rather proven the point that they were sovereign pre-2014?
    Not the same thing at all.

    If Scotland voted Yes they are still dependent upon the UK to leave. They couldn't just leave, but would have been allowed to leave.

    When we voted to leave the EU the EU could not stop us leaving.

    So the circumstances are very different and the logic is not perverse.

    We were Sovereign before we left, Scotland wasn't. Hence we could just leave and Scotland couldn't.
    Utter bollox from an obviously halfwitted moron. In Scotland teh people are sovereign , not some half witted German reject or a bunch of poseurs in Westminster.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Interesting question IMO: would Labour really want Boris back as PM? After all, he won a 365 to 203 seats victory less than 3 years ago.
  • Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Tell us Nadine, do you have an answer to that mindbender? Someone who isn't Liz Truss but can claim that the public voted for them?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the calamity of her first month in office!
    I’m a monarchist but I don’t like this. Ask yourself: why did this stuff never happen to the Queen?

    Because she had impeccable manners and knew how to behave as a monarch

    Even if there was no malign intent in KC3’s mutterings (and how can anyone be sure?) they can certainly be interpreted as dissing the elected Prime Minister. And that is really bad - for the Monarchy

    A few years of it could turn me into a republican. It’s the one single thing they must not do. KC3 needs to kick out the cameras if he can’t control his words

    'elected'?
    She’s an MP. That’s our electoral system. If we don’t like it we can change it. Now we have Brexited we are a free and sovereign democracy once again
    As we were before we Brexited.
    Sovereign, in the sense of either accept everything or leave, yes.

    The People made their decision.
    Yep they did, which rather proves the point. We were/are sovereign.
    Perverse logic.

    If Scotland had Yes in 2014 would that have rather proven the point that they were sovereign pre-2014?
    Not the same thing at all.

    If Scotland voted Yes they are still dependent upon the UK to leave. They couldn't just leave, but would have been allowed to leave.

    When we voted to leave the EU the EU could not stop us leaving.

    So the circumstances are very different and the logic is not perverse.

    We were Sovereign before we left, Scotland wasn't. Hence we could just leave and Scotland couldn't.
    Utter bollox from an obviously halfwitted moron. In Scotland teh people are sovereign , not some half witted German reject or a bunch of poseurs in Westminster.
    Welcome back Malcolm! First post I've seen from you for ages.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Here is an off the wall suggestion

    A governement introduces a concept of a minimum mortgage interest rate which ratchets up and down with the base rate, say for example making mortgages cost 2% more per year than currently.

    The 2% extra interest goes to the treasury
    The minimum mortgage percentage also acts as a dampener on rising house prices
    Could even have a different minimum rate for BTL mortgages thats a little higher

    Could be in favour for BTL and non primary residences only.

    Not much point in lower house prices for owner occupier workers if they then have to pay a surcharge to the government that makes it just as bad or worse than the high house prices were.
    If it reduces house price inflation from the current 10% or more a year to say a mere 5% then in the round it would be beneficial for house buyers
    The 10% a year is far from sustainable anyway. Market will correct sooner or later.

    As discussed on here before the solutions are:

    Foreign non resident or ltd company buyers tax - 10% extra
    LVT to replace council tax
    Reduce housing benefit substantially
    Remove govt props that support the market
    Build more homes
    “Build more homes” needs to be the starting point. Every solution requires building more homes.

    Anyone suggesting immigration as a solution to labour shortages, needs to be clear that more homes are required first.
    Kind of. Build more homes obviously comes with a time lag, so it will take longest to have an impact. The others can be much quicker, some very quickly. They all need to be done.
    Building houses can be fast, it’s the planning and bureaucracy that takes the time.

    You can now buy a 3-bed house in a dozen containers, delivered by lorry to your site for less than £100k. What’s required, is for it to be easy to get planning permission for these, and for banks to give 20-year loans on them.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Interesting question IMO: would Labour really want Boris back as PM? After all, he won a 365 to 203 seats victory less than 3 years ago.
    How can you bring back a PM who less than 6 months ago most of the MPs refused to serve in a government under?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Okay, enlighten me.

    If you could get heroin from the chemist, under supervision, then why would anyone want something as fcuked up as Fentanyl?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Have just noticed. The video of Truss meeting the King. Lots of comments about her appalling courtesy thing. And his "you're back again? Dear oh dear". But listen between "again" and "dear". He grimaces and sucks his teeth loudly. Its comedy gold!

    https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1580264025648431105

    I am no fan of Truss but, quite frankly, I find it rude of the entitled, privileged, white male Monarch to react in that way.

    There is no need for it.

    People approving of such ignorant behaviour because its towards someone they politically do not like would not be so accomodating if it was someone like Starmer or Davey.
    Utter rubbish, Truss is the most hapless and unpopular PM in 100 years. It was a mild remark reflecting on the complete calamity of the current government before the King swiftly moved the conversation on.

    I have no problem with it at all and given she was open in her republicanism in the past who could blame Charles in enjoying secretly the calamity of her first month in office!
    I’m a monarchist but I don’t like this. Ask yourself: why did this stuff never happen to the Queen?

    Because she had impeccable manners and knew how to behave as a monarch

    Even if there was no malign intent in KC3’s mutterings (and how can anyone be sure?) they can certainly be interpreted as dissing the elected Prime Minister. And that is really bad - for the Monarchy

    A few years of it could turn me into a republican. It’s the one single thing they must not do. KC3 needs to kick out the cameras if he can’t control his words

    'elected'?
    She’s an MP. That’s our electoral system. If we don’t like it we can change it. Now we have Brexited we are a free and sovereign democracy once again
    As we were before we Brexited.
    Sovereign, in the sense of either accept everything or leave, yes.

    The People made their decision.
    Yep they did, which rather proves the point. We were/are sovereign.
    Perverse logic.

    If Scotland had Yes in 2014 would that have rather proven the point that they were sovereign pre-2014?
    Not the same thing at all.

    If Scotland voted Yes they are still dependent upon the UK to leave. They couldn't just leave, but would have been allowed to leave.

    When we voted to leave the EU the EU could not stop us leaving.

    So the circumstances are very different and the logic is not perverse.

    We were Sovereign before we left, Scotland wasn't. Hence we could just leave and Scotland couldn't.
    Utter bollox from an obviously halfwitted moron. In Scotland teh people are sovereign , not some half witted German reject or a bunch of poseurs in Westminster.
    Hello Malky!! Nice to see you back and to see you channelling Buchanan. Hope you and your lady are well and that it is as sunny as it is over on this side.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Tell us Nadine, do you have an answer to that mindbender? Someone who isn't Liz Truss but can claim that the public voted for them?
    Subtle, isn't she? :lol:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Scott_xP said:

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (11-12 Oct)

    Con: 23% (+1 from 6-7 Oct)
    Lab: 51% (-1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 7% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/13/voting-intention-con-23-lab-51-11-12-oct-2022 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1580496386755555328/photo/1

    Truss resurgence begins!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Tell us Nadine, do you have an answer to that mindbender? Someone who isn't Liz Truss but can claim that the public voted for them?
    It's very cryptic but "smorgasboard" could be a clue she's thinking of someone blond.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    Scott_xP said:

    MPs circulating a smorgasboard of names re who should replace Truss as PM are not taking into account the fact that they cannot foist upon the British public another Prime Minister that the public have not voted for. A totally untenable position.
    #backliz

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1580507233917763584

    Tell us Nadine, do you have an answer to that mindbender? Someone who isn't Liz Truss but can claim that the public voted for them?
    Subtle, isn't she? :lol:
    Still, good to have confirmation that MPs are already starting to discuss the successor…
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Which of the following do you think would make the best prime minister? (11-12 Oct)

    Keir Starmer: 42% (-1 from 6-7 Oct)
    Liz Truss: 13% (-1)
    Not sure: 41% (+2)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/13/voting-intention-con-23-lab-51-11-12-oct-2022 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1580496391985459201/photo/1

    Even now, Sir Keir is barely struggling to beat "not sure" (which, of course, means "neither"). Time for him to start telling us what he would do.
    Yes, Starmer's in real trouble isn't he, especially compared to Truss? At least Truss has told us what she'd do. However....
    Well, if all he cares about is winning the election, then he's doing enough by default.

    It won't help him actually do anything about the problems the country faces, though!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (11-12 Oct)

    Con: 23% (+1 from 6-7 Oct)
    Lab: 51% (-1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 7% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/13/voting-intention-con-23-lab-51-11-12-oct-2022 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1580496386755555328/photo/1

    Truss resurgence begins!
    Sleazy, broken Labour on the slide, to umm a 28 err point ... lead ...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    edited October 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    I have some sympathy with your argument, but I think the problem is that a promise to nuke Moscow in retaliation for Russia using a nuke on a Ukrainian trench in rural Donetsk lacks a certain credibility when Britain hasn't yet been willing to commit its own soldiers, tanks and fighter jets to the war.

    If I was Putin I wouldn't take such a threat of nuclear deterrence seriously while British tanks were parading in Poland and Estonia, rather than joining a Ukrainian attempt to liberate Melitopol.

    So I think that the threat of a conventional response, sinking the Black Sea fleet, destroying airbases, etc, is more credible, and therefore more likely to act as a deterrent.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Have we had a thread on why the LibDems don't seem to be benefiting from the trussterfuck?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    A rushed clarification from Macron:

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We do not want a World War.

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We are helping Ukraine to resist on its soil, never to attack Russia. Vladimir Putin must stop this war and respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity.


    https://www.twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1580505003714048001
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Yesterday the talk amongst Tory MPs was whether or not Liz Truss should go. Today it’s shifted to how quickly she goes, what’s the mechanism and who do they replace her with.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1580510779291619329
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    edited October 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Okay, enlighten me.

    If you could get heroin from the chemist, under supervision, then why would anyone want something as fcuked up as Fentanyl?

    Multiple reasons. It’s cheaper. It’s much more addictive. Some say the initial high is more intense - tho the lows and withdrawal are worse and way more dangerous. The dealers cut the heroin with fentanyl - so you get hooked on fentanyl anyway

    It’s why I’ve gone off legalisation. The new drugs are too menacing
  • Have we had a thread on why the LibDems don't seem to be benefiting from the trussterfuck?

    More interesting that REFUK are not benefitting either.

    She is so bad people just want her gone and the clearest way is a Labour win.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited October 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    Don’t worry, a small tactical nuke won’t be met by an overwhelming nuclear response.

    It’ll be met by an overwhelming conventional response. Overwhelming, as in every NATO country throwing everything it has available against the Russian military. There won’t be a Black Sea fleet, and there won’t be dozens of bases from which further attacks might be launched.
    That ends in the same place as a nuclear response so you might as well go with Bart Stromberg's Trident launch and save a few a days on the way to the extirpation of modern civilisation in the Northern Hemisphere.
    I’m hoping that I’m south enough to avoid all that radioactive fallout sh!t :D
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    edited October 2022
    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    It therefore irks them because it is an inarguable reason for Brexit. They will never be able to turn around and say “Brexit was a mistake” because Brexit is already, in these terms, a success. We are sovereign again. We control our own borders. The fact the borders are pathetically uncontrolled is down to OUR stupid useless government which we can elect or dismiss

    Every time I see Ursula von der Wotsit on the telly I give thanks for Brexit. Quite sincerely

    Tho she must have been extremely hot in her 20s

    It's a fantastic construct you've made for yourself. 'We have sovereignty therefore Brexit can never be wrong, and I, Leon, can always proclaim I was right to vote Leave.'

    You can airily wave away all the damage it has caused and is continuing to cause, all the unfilled promises that swung God knows how many votes that the government has abandoned one by one since 2016, by burbling on about sovereignty.

    I don't really care, and I suspect most people including the vast majority of Leave voters other than the real hardcore, cared about sovereignty, how much of it was shared, all that jazz, before the referendum campaign. It was boring political theory. Cummings - I assume it was he but whoever it was - their malign genius was to make sovereignty a synonym for whatever your pet concern was. Borders? Sovereignty. Red tape? Sovereignty. A trade deal with the US? Sovereignty. Ensuring any French made cars are dumped in the Channel? Sovereignty. (Someone told my Dad they voted Leave because they hate Peugeot cars. Seriously. Still astounds me. I know someone who voted Leave, after fully expecting to vote Remain, cos they didn't like George Osborne's apocalyptic warnings about economic meltdown. Cheers George.)

    It's genius really. Like 'Take Back Control' - you can make it mean whatever you want it to. It can never be rebutted. Because even if the Union crumbles, even if we continue to have massive labour shortages, even if we're all hunting rats, none of it matters. Cos sovereignty.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329

    A rushed clarification from Macron:

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We do not want a World War.

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We are helping Ukraine to resist on its soil, never to attack Russia. Vladimir Putin must stop this war and respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity.


    https://www.twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1580505003714048001

    Do they realise this is the Opposite of Reassuring?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Okay, enlighten me.

    If you could get heroin from the chemist, under supervision, then why would anyone want something as fcuked up as Fentanyl?

    Multiple reasons. It’s cheaper. It’s much more addictive. Some say the initial high is more intense - tho the lows and withdrawal are worse and way more dangerous. The dealers cut the heroin with fentanyl - so you get hooked on fentanyl anyway

    It’s why I’ve gone off legalisation. The new drugs are too menacing
    Which is exactly why the old drugs should be legal.
  • Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Okay, enlighten me.

    If you could get heroin from the chemist, under supervision, then why would anyone want something as fcuked up as Fentanyl?

    Multiple reasons. It’s cheaper. It’s much more addictive. Some say the initial high is more intense - tho the lows and withdrawal are worse and way more dangerous. The dealers cut the heroin with fentanyl - so you get hooked on fentanyl anyway

    It’s why I’ve gone off legalisation. The new drugs are too menacing
    That's all the more reason to legalise.

    Legal and regulated gives certainty on product quality and standards and that what you buy isn't laced with something else.

    Legalised beer and wine can be much safer and lower ABV than prohibition era moonshine.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    It therefore irks them because it is an inarguable reason for Brexit. They will never be able to turn around and say “Brexit was a mistake” because Brexit is already, in these terms, a success. We are sovereign again. We control our own borders. The fact the borders are pathetically uncontrolled is down to OUR stupid useless government which we can elect or dismiss

    Every time I see Ursula von der Wotsit on the telly I give thanks for Brexit. Quite sincerely

    Tho she must have been extremely hot in her 20s

    Like the lab leak, just because you say it’s inarguable, doesn’t mean it is. Without wishing to be credentialist I’ve studied both EU law and history to Masters level, and am a qualified lawyer, and I firmly believe that the UK was sovereign in the EU. But I accept that I’m not going to change your mind, partly because you wouldn’t understand many of the concepts I’d have to refer to, but more because it’s an emotional thing with you (as so much is) so I can’t be arsed trying. This stuff used to wind me up admittedly, but now I’m sitting back watching the shitshow you sold the country with a similar resigned fatalistic air I view the prospect of nuclear Armageddon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Have we had a thread on why the LibDems don't seem to be benefiting from the trussterfuck?

    More interesting that REFUK are not benefitting either.

    She is so bad people just want her gone and the clearest way is a Labour win.
    Not sure. Much more overlap between Trussology and Reform UK than between Ms T and your actual LD sandal wearer/soft Tory (as appropriate). Different phenomena there, I think?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,822
    JRM opposes ban on farmland solar. How is it possible that he's turned into a more reasonable cabinet minister. Truss is a moron.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    It therefore irks them because it is an inarguable reason for Brexit. They will never be able to turn around and say “Brexit was a mistake” because Brexit is already, in these terms, a success. We are sovereign again. We control our own borders. The fact the borders are pathetically uncontrolled is down to OUR stupid useless government which we can elect or dismiss

    Every time I see Ursula von der Wotsit on the telly I give thanks for Brexit. Quite sincerely

    Tho she must have been extremely hot in her 20s

    Like the lab leak, just because you say it’s inarguable, doesn’t mean it is. Without wishing to be credentialist I’ve studied both EU law and history to Masters level, and am a qualified lawyer, and I firmly believe that the UK was sovereign in the EU. But I accept that I’m not going to change your mind, partly because you wouldn’t understand many of the concepts I’d have to refer to, but more because it’s an emotional thing with you (as so much is) so I can’t be arsed trying. This stuff used to wind me up admittedly, but now I’m sitting back watching the shitshow you sold the country with a similar resigned fatalistic air I view the prospect of nuclear Armageddon.
    Just rejoice that we have Brexited. And we are proud and free, once again

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    It therefore irks them because it is an inarguable reason for Brexit. They will never be able to turn around and say “Brexit was a mistake” because Brexit is already, in these terms, a success. We are sovereign again. We control our own borders. The fact the borders are pathetically uncontrolled is down to OUR stupid useless government which we can elect or dismiss

    Every time I see Ursula von der Wotsit on the telly I give thanks for Brexit. Quite sincerely

    Tho she must have been extremely hot in her 20s

    Like the lab leak, just because you say it’s inarguable, doesn’t mean it is. Without wishing to be credentialist I’ve studied both EU law and history to Masters level, and am a qualified lawyer, and I firmly believe that the UK was sovereign in the EU. But I accept that I’m not going to change your mind, partly because you wouldn’t understand many of the concepts I’d have to refer to, but more because it’s an emotional thing with you (as so much is) so I can’t be arsed trying. This stuff used to wind me up admittedly, but now I’m sitting back watching the shitshow you sold the country with a similar resigned fatalistic air I view the prospect of nuclear Armageddon.
    Just rejoice that we have Brexited. And we are proud and free, once again

    Work on your trolling. This schtick is getting old.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    In which case there likely would actually be a Russian nuke on London.

    Trident is to defend the UK as a last resort, not to attack a nuclear missiles armed power to defend a non NATO state
    Trident is on submarines so that it provides a second-strike capability. Therefore it would only ever be used once it had already failed to deter attack, when it would be too late to defend the UK.

    It only defends the UK by the deterrence effect. It has no other utility. It's incorrect to talk about it as a last resort.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157

    Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    They can't even sack Bailey now.
  • Carnyx said:

    Have we had a thread on why the LibDems don't seem to be benefiting from the trussterfuck?

    More interesting that REFUK are not benefitting either.

    She is so bad people just want her gone and the clearest way is a Labour win.
    Not sure. Much more overlap between Trussology and Reform UK than between Ms T and your actual LD sandal wearer/soft Tory (as appropriate). Different phenomena there, I think?
    Agreed that is a big part of REFUKs failure to improve. Another being their choice of acronym.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Joe Biden is too timid. It is time to legalise cocaine
    The costs of prohibition outweigh the benefits"

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/10/12/joe-biden-is-too-timid-it-is-time-to-legalise-cocaine

    That’s not wrong, the ‘war on drugs’ middle way has clearly failed. Be Singapore and Bangkok, or be Netherlands and Portugual. Anything else isn’t going to work.

    Hell, the Fentanyl madness in the US right now, is because heroin is illegal and there’s no treatment programme for adicts.
    Fundamentally wrong on the history of fentanyl
    Okay, enlighten me.

    If you could get heroin from the chemist, under supervision, then why would anyone want something as fcuked up as Fentanyl?

    Multiple reasons. It’s cheaper. It’s much more addictive. Some say the initial high is more intense - tho the lows and withdrawal are worse and way more dangerous. The dealers cut the heroin with fentanyl - so you get hooked on fentanyl anyway

    It’s why I’ve gone off legalisation. The new drugs are too menacing
    That's all the more reason to legalise.

    Legal and regulated gives certainty on product quality and standards and that what you buy isn't laced with something else.

    Legalised beer and wine can be much safer and lower ABV than prohibition era moonshine.
    Just on the issue of Moonshine, there is a problem with this in Scandinavian countries, it is hard and expensive to get alcohol, so people brew their own. Not sure how much this goes on but I have seen it. It would probably be the same with drugs. I don't oppose legalising them but it won't stop the black market for stronger and cheaper stuff, so regulating it may not result in an overall improvement in product standards.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    MaxPB said:

    JRM opposes ban on farmland solar. How is it possible that he's turned into a more reasonable cabinet minister. Truss is a moron.

    He's sure feeling aggrieved: but if he keeps company ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/13/green-energy-guardian-reader-growth-net-zero-liz-truss-jacob-rees-mogg

    I’m maligned as a ‘green energy sceptic’. I’m not. Dear Guardian reader, here’s what I think
    Jacob Rees-Mogg
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431

    Have we had a thread on why the LibDems don't seem to be benefiting from the trussterfuck?

    More interesting that REFUK are not benefitting either.

    She is so bad people just want her gone and the clearest way is a Labour win.
    When did you last see the leader of either Lib Dems or REFUK interviewed on a major TV channel or or in a major newspaper? And Davey as a former Energy Secretary presumably has something to say.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited October 2022
    As an expat, the sort of thing that says “why the f*** would I want to live in modern Britain?”

    Which council employee thought this was a legitimate ticket?



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11310931/Driver-pulled-bus-lane-let-ambulance-pass-fined-130-causing-backlash-Brits.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited October 2022
    Leon said:

    A rushed clarification from Macron:

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We do not want a World War.

    @EmmanuelMacron
    We are helping Ukraine to resist on its soil, never to attack Russia. Vladimir Putin must stop this war and respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity.


    https://www.twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1580505003714048001

    Do they realise this is the Opposite of Reassuring?
    It's reassuring if you're in Paris. Less so Kyiv.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    kinabalu said:

    Liz Truss and Kwasi Karteng have had a crash course over the last few weeks on the limits of our 'sovereignty'.

    They can't even sack Bailey now.
    Wasn’t Bailey appointed in part that he was a believer in Brexit ?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    MaxPB said:

    JRM opposes ban on farmland solar. How is it possible that he's turned into a more reasonable cabinet minister. Truss is a moron.

    Yep, it's a bit like folk harking back to the good old days of Priti Patel as HS, now we've got Braverman. FFS, that's some shift in the Overton window.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The reason Remoaners STILL get worked up by the idea “Britain was not sovereign in the EU” is because they know it is true, not the opposite

    It therefore irks them because it is an inarguable reason for Brexit. They will never be able to turn around and say “Brexit was a mistake” because Brexit is already, in these terms, a success. We are sovereign again. We control our own borders. The fact the borders are pathetically uncontrolled is down to OUR stupid useless government which we can elect or dismiss

    Every time I see Ursula von der Wotsit on the telly I give thanks for Brexit. Quite sincerely

    Tho she must have been extremely hot in her 20s

    Like the lab leak, just because you say it’s inarguable, doesn’t mean it is. Without wishing to be credentialist I’ve studied both EU law and history to Masters level, and am a qualified lawyer, and I firmly believe that the UK was sovereign in the EU. But I accept that I’m not going to change your mind, partly because you wouldn’t understand many of the concepts I’d have to refer to, but more because it’s an emotional thing with you (as so much is) so I can’t be arsed trying. This stuff used to wind me up admittedly, but now I’m sitting back watching the shitshow you sold the country with a similar resigned fatalistic air I view the prospect of nuclear Armageddon.
    Just rejoice that we have Brexited. And we are proud and free, once again

    Work on your trolling. This schtick is getting old.
    Trolling is designed to elicit a pointless response. Which this did. You responded. QED

    Once again I have very very very very slightly worsened the life of a pompous, inane, and middlebrow Remoaner, an achievement which gives me more pleasure than it ought

    “I’ll have you know I am a qualified lawyer”

    Lol



  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    MaxPB said:

    JRM opposes ban on farmland solar. How is it possible that he's turned into a more reasonable cabinet minister. Truss is a moron.

    Yep, it's a bit like folk harking back to the good old days of Priti Patel as HS, now we've got Braverman. FFS, that's some shift in the Overton window.
    Well, people wanted Patel and Boris gone - be careful what you wish for!
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    This is why Penny is needed! Also, Labour need to be very careful as Thangam Debbonaire looks positively gleeful about the state of the UK financial situation.

    During #PMQs yesterday, "the Leader of the House couldn't even muster a nod for her prime minister", Shadow Leader of the House Thangam Debbonaire says

    "My resting face is that of a bulldog chewing a wasp," says Leader of the House Penny Mordaunt

    bbc.in/3esZUkM

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1580514243681607680
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    Ukraine is not even in NATO. So if Putin uses a tactical nuke in Ukraine, you would nuke Moscow, then Putin nukes London. Just to be clear?

    Trident is a last resort for our defence or at most NATO's defence that is it. Otherwise blockade and isolate Putin further but don't launch Trident
    I would prevent Putin from using a tactical nuke in Ukraine by making it clear we would treat that as a nuke on London, yes, in honour of our prior commitments we made to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes.

    Putin and his generals should then be deterred from escalating to nuclear force.
    In which case there likely would actually be a Russian nuke on London.

    Trident is to defend the UK as a last resort, not to attack a nuclear missiles armed power to defend a non NATO state
    Trident is on submarines so that it provides a second-strike capability. Therefore it would only ever be used once it had already failed to deter attack, when it would be too late to defend the UK.

    It only defends the UK by the deterrence effect. It has no other utility. It's incorrect to talk about it as a last resort.
    It is a last resort, as any power that tries to attack the UK knows that it risks a Trident nuclear missile attack on its capital city in response.

    The Ukraine is neither in the UK nor NATO
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited October 2022
    Sandpit said:

    As an expat, the sort of thing that says “why the f*** would I want to live in modern Britain?”

    Which council employee thought this was a legitimate ticket?



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11310931/Driver-pulled-bus-lane-let-ambulance-pass-fined-130-causing-backlash-Brits.html

    Someone took a situation like this to the high court a few years ago, when they pulled in front of a red light to let an police car (on flashing lights) pass and got a ticket. They lost. The law is the law but the problem is a lack of judgement on the part of the authorities that serve the notices (as you imply).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently Macron had to say this because French public opinion is freaking out about nuclear war

    But he could surely have found a better way of phrasing it than this. Calamitously awkward

    The quote seems selective because it doesn't mention nuclear. If he's talking about nuclear, of course France wouldn't nuke Russia for using a nuke in Ukraine - not would we, nor would America.
    We absolutely should, 100%. We made guarantees to Ukraine when they disarmed their own nukes, and we should honour our word by holding them under our nuclear shield if it gets that far.

    And Putin should be in no doubt about that, so if he chooses to nuke Ukraine he knows we will take it as seriously as him choosing to nuke London.
    I know you've expressed this view before, and it's absolutely, balls out, shit for brains, Kenny Everett mad. Mad is a cheapened word these days, it doesn't express adequately how stupid that would be.
    Nah, just because you and a few other loons love Putin and can't bear to see Putin lose, doesn't mean we should go back on our word or allow nuclear escalation to go unpunished.

    As long as the war remains conventional then we should only fight via proxy, as we are doing, and has been done for seventy years through the Cold War.

    If it escalates to nuclear though, that is what Trident is there for.
    Trident is absolutely and demonstrably *not* for attacking another country that has attacked an ally. And I don't think you'll get many thanks from Ukrainians for turning a disaster (a tactical nuke attack) into a piss-fight using strategic nukes, given that they would all die. You utter chump.
    Don’t worry, a small tactical nuke won’t be met by an overwhelming nuclear response.

    It’ll be met by an overwhelming conventional response. Overwhelming, as in every NATO country throwing everything it has available against the Russian military. There won’t be a Black Sea fleet, and there won’t be dozens of bases from which further attacks might be launched.
    That ends in the same place as a nuclear response so you might as well go with Bart Stromberg's Trident launch and save a few a days on the way to the extirpation of modern civilisation in the Northern Hemisphere.
    Be nice to use the big T in a way. Would silence the likes of me who doubt its utility or VFM. Would silence quite a few other people too.
This discussion has been closed.