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A LAB majority bet is starting to look value – politicalbetting.com

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  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    kellner did say though tories have lost 7 million voters since last election
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158
    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,826
    Another one that the government missed a trick on in a tax cutting budget - stamp duty on shares should have been eliminated, it's an inexpensive measure and would encourage UK companies to list in the UK.
  • Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    46% was only matched once in the polling by Miliband during 2010-15.
  • kamski said:

    Leon said:

    And another video

    The Department of State talking about Nord Stream 2 in January 2022



    @UnderSecStateP
    Victoria Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336?s=20&t=VlDNshCBvcF347TYOmlvZA

    She just comes right out and says it. Tells Russia what will happen. "One way or another" - which clearly means either we get Germany to cancel it and permanently close it down, or we will blow the fucker up

    How can this be an extreme alt-right conspiracy theory when you have this evidence right in front of you? Bewildering



    What isn't bewildering (because it's Leon) is that you haven't noticed that Nordstream 2 didn't move on because Germany halted it on February 22nd in response to Russia recognising the breakaway republics.

    Not only that but even Nordstream 1 hasn't been operating for a month because Russia stopped it. You don't seem to have even noticed that it is Russian policy to cut off gas supplies to western europe.

    If Nordstream 2 had started operating after the invasion, and then got sabotaged, then you might have a point. Your attempts to invent a plausible motive for the US to do something so reckless are completely unconvincing
    This is a bit naive. The US has a clear interest in putting the pipeline beyond use and their national security community has been going on about this issue for years. They're also not unknown to use hard power in dealings with allies.

    At this point I don't think it's correct to call this a 'conspiracy theory' because there isn't an official version of what happened yet. All we know is that the pipeline was destroyed and that it was almost certainly done by a state actor. Perhaps more information will come into the public domain that will clarify how it was done.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    Nothing to see here - please move along



    The Tories only loss 225 seats and Labour have a small majority...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    US Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo, referring to the UK: "Business people want to see world leaders taking inflation very seriously. And it's hard to see that out of this new government"
    https://twitter.com/LouisDegenhardt/status/1575516695300608002
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    eek said:

    What is weird to think about is if Corbyn had done worse in 2017, and May had delivered a majority of even about 40-50, we might

    biggles said:

    I guess one interesting off-shoot here is that Starmer is in the same position is Cameron c. 08/09. He’s needs to be really careful not to over promise, but he has to be able to offer something hopeful.

    Unlike Cameron, he really needs to war game the SNP. Worst possible place to be in Government is to run a Lib/Lab coalition (or have Lib c&s) but have con+SNP over or around the numbers needed for a VONC. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone and dreadful for the country.

    I do think in this scenario, his best move is to try and use the Lib Dems to get PR through and, if he can, then immediately hold a new general election under the new rules.

    The Tories would be very opposed, but I’m curious on the SNP. They’ve supported it before, but it would massively weaken them and Sturgeon would probably be against it on the argument that it would undermine Scotland’s autonomy. She’d accuse Starmer of using it to scupper independence permanently.

    Now, this leads to an intriguing conclusion. If Starmer ended up needing the SNP to pass PR, could he only do it in exchange for IndyRef 2?

    After some/all the above has transpired, you could see a new Tory being able to much more easily paint the ‘coalition of chaos’ picture.
    If you got PR through you can't really immediately have another election - it wouldn't be practical to organise one quickly.

    The best bet if Labour gets 280/300 seats is to turn round and say - we need a proper majority so I'm going to call a second election and if you want a sane Government vote Labour....
    It would not be more difficult to organise a second election using PR than it would be using any other voting system.

    Why should it be?

    A better argument would be that you would not want a second PR election very soon after the first one, because the result would almost certainly be pretty well the same. It would be a waste of time.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    This CNN interview is..... unnerving

    Retired but articulate CIA guy is interviewed about Putin. He says Putin, according to his Russian contacts, is likely to "go nuclear". Putin may get stopped by his own people but we can't rely on that. Putin has cornered himself like a mad rat, he has few options left, and this is one

    https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1575272663924211712?s=20&t=Xy9RlkbEHgO7xLqfYucKgA

    Watch from 5:23

    He also concludes that if and when Putin does drop a tactical nuke, we won't be able to respond in kind, we won't use strategic nukes because that ends the world. In other words, this might work for Putin, which makes it worse

    There's a couple of pieces to pick apart here.

    Let's start with the obvious:

    (1) What is the target of the tactical nuke? Is it being used as a demonstration of Putin's Will to Power, or is it being used to achieve some kind of tactical purpose?

    And let's not forget that the use of even a tactical nuke on Snake Island is replete with risks for Putin: What if it is a dud? What if China responds by joining the West in completely isolating Russia? What if it precipitates an uprising among his people or his Generals?

    (2) There are plenty of non-nuclear escalations that the West can take. Russia's war effort would be severely compromised if the Kerch Bridge were to fall. How would they then resupply troops in Crimea.

    I'm struggling to see the benefits to Putin, because use of a tactical nuke won't stop the Ukrainians fighting; it won't stop the West supplying Ukraine; and it will pretty much ensure the loss of support from Russia's few remaining sortof allies.
    Good post.

    If the US and allies are being wise then they will be speaking to Beijing, Delhi and other key players quite regularly about all this. I would not be surprised, if tensions heighten further, for there to be some kind of joint international response ready to go, and for Xi and Modi to be having a quiet word in Putin’s ear.

  • kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    We have a new YouGov poll soon...

    It manages to be even more dramatic than the last one

    https://twitter.com/Smyth_Chris/status/1575517296529133568
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Two things you probably won't read in the UK press.

    German inflation now above 10%.

    European consumer confidence below level of 2012 sovereign debt crisis.

    Lets rejoin...

    Here you go, from https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/consumer-confidence
    Consumer Confidence      Date
    Italy 94.8 Sep/22
    France 79 Sep/22
    Czech Republic 72.7 Sep/22
    United States 59.5 Sep/22
    Canada 50.14 Sep/22
    Sweden 49.7 Sep/22
    Ireland 42.1 Sep/22
    Malta -9.5 Sep/22
    Finland -18.3 Sep/22
    Norway -26.8 Sep/22
    Belgium -27 Sep/22
    Croatia -27.2 Sep/22
    Cyprus -27.7 Sep/22
    Euro Area -28.8 Sep/22
    Luxembourg -29.8 Sep/22
    European Union -29.9 Sep/22
    Denmark -32.1 Sep/22
    Austria -32.2 Sep/22
    Slovakia -34.1 Sep/22
    Portugal -35.8 Sep/22
    Bulgaria -38.4 Sep/22
    Slovenia -40 Sep/22
    Switzerland -41.7 Sep/22
    Poland -44.2 Sep/22
    United Kingdom -49 Sep/22
    Greece -51.2 Sep/22
    Netherlands -59 Sep/22
    (For the record, I continue to think leaving the EU was the right choice. But let's please deal in actual facts rather than made up shit please.)
    These data are not comparable across all countries, the scales are different.
    That's true - I was lazing posting rather than resetting. Some are 1-100, others are -100 to +100.

    Nevertheless... my point is not inaccurate. We're nowhere near the levels of the height of the Eurozone crisis or the GFC, when where pretty much everyone was at -60 to -80.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
  • Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    And another video

    The Department of State talking about Nord Stream 2 in January 2022



    @UnderSecStateP
    Victoria Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336?s=20&t=VlDNshCBvcF347TYOmlvZA

    She just comes right out and says it. Tells Russia what will happen. "One way or another" - which clearly means either we get Germany to cancel it and permanently close it down, or we will blow the fucker up

    How can this be an extreme alt-right conspiracy theory when you have this evidence right in front of you? Bewildering



    What isn't bewildering (because it's Leon) is that you haven't noticed that Nordstream 2 didn't move on because Germany halted it on February 22nd in response to Russia recognising the breakaway republics.

    Not only that but even Nordstream 1 hasn't been operating for a month because Russia stopped it. You don't seem to have even noticed that it is Russian policy to cut off gas supplies to western europe.

    If Nordstream 2 had started operating after the invasion, and then got sabotaged, then you might have a point. Your attempts to invent a plausible motive for the US to do something so reckless are completely unconvincing
    You're never an interesting commenter, but I find this reaction fascinating

    Here you have a senior US politician telling you exactly what they will do - cut Nordstream2 "one way or another" - and yet you cannot believe that they would do that, so it must be wrong, or something. Even tho she says explicitly this will happen and that they will do it: to you. And now it's been done. Your brain blanks it all out

    A remarkable mindset. A kind of geopolitical Stockholm Syndrome
    You're the one being remarkable, Nordstream was cut, yes, absolutely. It was cut in February.

    To destroy something that has already been stopped, is not in the US's interests, it is in Russia's though. You are being bizarre.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173
    Afternoon all.

    I see that HMQ Time of Death is 3:10pm on the Death Certificate.
  • eek said:

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    Nothing to see here - please move along



    The Tories only loss 225 seats and Labour have a small majority...
    LOL.

    POLAKWAS
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    nico679 said:

    Why is Truss trying to suggest the markets didn’t like the energy help. The energy cap was announced before the Queens death and was not the issue behind the pound drama which was in relation to last Friday’s announcement.

    Because the detail of how it’s to be paid for was not confirmed until last Friday.

    Is the penny dropping on some of you now then? No ifs no butts, The Goat needs a hair cut.

    I’ve been saying it all week, and taking far too much flak. PB. Are. A. Disgrace. (sometimes)
    Keep dreaming - there was nothing wrong with the energy cap - all of europe is doing the same and its been built into the market for weeks.

    The issue was additional tax cuts beyond the energy cap with no justification for them. Remember if the same theory hasn't worked for the past 12 years no-one is going to believe that this time round low corporation tax really, really will generate investment in productivity.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    And another video

    The Department of State talking about Nord Stream 2 in January 2022



    @UnderSecStateP
    Victoria Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336?s=20&t=VlDNshCBvcF347TYOmlvZA

    She just comes right out and says it. Tells Russia what will happen. "One way or another" - which clearly means either we get Germany to cancel it and permanently close it down, or we will blow the fucker up

    How can this be an extreme alt-right conspiracy theory when you have this evidence right in front of you? Bewildering



    What isn't bewildering (because it's Leon) is that you haven't noticed that Nordstream 2 didn't move on because Germany halted it on February 22nd in response to Russia recognising the breakaway republics.

    Not only that but even Nordstream 1 hasn't been operating for a month because Russia stopped it. You don't seem to have even noticed that it is Russian policy to cut off gas supplies to western europe.

    If Nordstream 2 had started operating after the invasion, and then got sabotaged, then you might have a point. Your attempts to invent a plausible motive for the US to do something so reckless are completely unconvincing
    This is a bit naive. The US has a clear interest in putting the pipeline beyond use and their national security community has been going on about this issue for years. They're also not unknown to use hard power in dealings with allies.

    At this point I don't think it's correct to call this a 'conspiracy theory' because there isn't an official version of what happened yet. All we know is that the pipeline was destroyed and that it was almost certainly done by a state actor. Perhaps more information will come into the public domain that will clarify how it was done.
    I think it's fair to call it "not very credible", as Russia has suitable submarines in the Baltic, and to get the 8-9000 tonne American ones that could do the job through the Kattegat and the shallow, narrow passages through the Danish islands would be quite difficult to do secretly or require Scandinavian cooperation, neither of which is very likely imo.
  • kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    +1 completely agreed. 💯

    USDC != USD. Stablecoins are anything but stable and no form of crypto is a stable "investment".
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    Scott_xP said:

    We have a new YouGov poll soon...

    It manages to be even more dramatic than the last one

    https://twitter.com/Smyth_Chris/status/1575517296529133568

    20% lead at least surely

    Latest RW

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Labour leads by 17%, largest lead for them that we've EVER recorded.

    Westminster Voting Intention (28-9 Sept):

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 25 Sept
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    It's big enough for me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    edited September 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.
    Except there was a Nord Stream 2, laying there waiting to be used. We're heading into winter and Germany faced the prospect of civil unrest and growing calls to do a deal with Russia to allow the gas to flow again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    eek said:

    Jared Evans
    @jarede
    Does everyone know we're about 3 minutes away from a new wave of Truss interviews? Bunch of BBC regional political interviews are going live at 5

    She's not going live. This is a death spiral.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    eek said:

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    Nothing to see here - please move along



    The Tories only loss 225 seats and Labour have a small majority...
    In such a scenario I cannot see the LDs only gaining 10 seats tbh.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    This CNN interview is..... unnerving

    Retired but articulate CIA guy is interviewed about Putin. He says Putin, according to his Russian contacts, is likely to "go nuclear". Putin may get stopped by his own people but we can't rely on that. Putin has cornered himself like a mad rat, he has few options left, and this is one

    https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1575272663924211712?s=20&t=Xy9RlkbEHgO7xLqfYucKgA

    Watch from 5:23

    He also concludes that if and when Putin does drop a tactical nuke, we won't be able to respond in kind, we won't use strategic nukes because that ends the world. In other words, this might work for Putin, which makes it worse

    There's a couple of pieces to pick apart here.

    Let's start with the obvious:

    (1) What is the target of the tactical nuke? Is it being used as a demonstration of Putin's Will to Power, or is it being used to achieve some kind of tactical purpose?

    And let's not forget that the use of even a tactical nuke on Snake Island is replete with risks for Putin: What if it is a dud? What if China responds by joining the West in completely isolating Russia? What if it precipitates an uprising among his people or his Generals?

    (2) There are plenty of non-nuclear escalations that the West can take. Russia's war effort would be severely compromised if the Kerch Bridge were to fall. How would they then resupply troops in Crimea.

    I'm struggling to see the benefits to Putin, because use of a tactical nuke won't stop the Ukrainians fighting; it won't stop the West supplying Ukraine; and it will pretty much ensure the loss of support from Russia's few remaining sortof allies.
    All Putin cares about now - I suspect - is survival in power. He must know he's made a titanic blunder

    But survival means he has to "win" - or at least do something that looks vaguely like a win. What on earth is that? Even if he pours a million men into Ukraine he probably still faces a terrible slog of attrition against superior weapons in the hands of motivated Ukro troops

    He needs a gamechanger. He has no good options. Only a dwindling list of crap or dangerous options

    So, he drops a tactical nuke somewhere in Ukraine, or maybe the Baltic, or somewhere else. Or an atmospheric nuke to wipe out systems and electronics. Whatever it is: the aim is to terrify the West such that we tell Ukraine to sue peace, for now. And Putin keeps his chunk of the country. A "win"

    That might work: for Putin. At least in the short-medium term. There aren't many - any? - better options for him. He probably doesn't care about the long term damage to Russia. It's all about survival in power
    The moment Putin uses a battlefield nuke in this way - which I agree with you, I think he will, all hell will break loose in the west. People will be fighting each other in the street for the last bog roll in Tesco. Probably best to stock up now.

    One of two things will then happen. Either there will be an immediate proportionate response by the US, probably not involving nuclear but still a significant escalation, e.g. a cruise missile strike on the bridge linking Crimea to Russia. We then hold or breath and wonder if things will escalate. If they do, we can expect the whole thing to go nuclear within a matter of days. Hope you stocked up on tinned food and bog rolls (or heroin and cocaine, for that matter).

    The other possibility is that the west does absolutely nothing. Mainly because the game theory boffins have evaluated the scenario above and decided it most likely leads to a nuclear exchange that wipes us all out. In which case we have to ask ourselves - does Russia therefore win? Is Ukraine forced to sue for peace?

    I am extremely gloomy about the world's survival chances. I'm afraid.

    Since I'm replying to a Leon post: I've also wondered at times if the aliens are here to study us because they know we're a society on the brink, and expect us to blow ourselves up.



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,826
    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    Why is Truss trying to suggest the markets didn’t like the energy help. The energy cap was announced before the Queens death and was not the issue behind the pound drama which was in relation to last Friday’s announcement.

    Because the detail of how it’s to be paid for was not confirmed until last Friday.

    Is the penny dropping on some of you now then? No ifs no butts, The Goat needs a hair cut.

    I’ve been saying it all week, and taking far too much flak. PB. Are. A. Disgrace. (sometimes)
    Keep dreaming - there was nothing wrong with the energy cap - all of europe is doing the same and its been built into the market for weeks.

    The issue was additional tax cuts beyond the energy cap with no justification for them. Remember if the same theory hasn't worked for the past 12 years no-one is going to believe that this time round low corporation tax really, really will generate investment in productivity.
    Yes when the energy cap was announced the market reaction was broadly positive and bond yields fell because peak 2023 inflation went from ca. 18% to ca. 11%, this insistence that it's the spend from that causing this is rewriting of history. The markets have reacted badly to the government pledging £45bn in tax cuts and not outlining how it would be funded other than to say "our tax cuts on the rich will increase trend growth rates". We're still at that point in time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,332
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Two things you probably won't read in the UK press.

    German inflation now above 10%.

    European consumer confidence below level of 2012 sovereign debt crisis.

    Lets rejoin...

    Here you go, from https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/consumer-confidence
    Consumer Confidence      Date
    Italy 94.8 Sep/22
    France 79 Sep/22
    Czech Republic 72.7 Sep/22
    United States 59.5 Sep/22
    Canada 50.14 Sep/22
    Sweden 49.7 Sep/22
    Ireland 42.1 Sep/22
    Malta -9.5 Sep/22
    Finland -18.3 Sep/22
    Norway -26.8 Sep/22
    Belgium -27 Sep/22
    Croatia -27.2 Sep/22
    Cyprus -27.7 Sep/22
    Euro Area -28.8 Sep/22
    Luxembourg -29.8 Sep/22
    European Union -29.9 Sep/22
    Denmark -32.1 Sep/22
    Austria -32.2 Sep/22
    Slovakia -34.1 Sep/22
    Portugal -35.8 Sep/22
    Bulgaria -38.4 Sep/22
    Slovenia -40 Sep/22
    Switzerland -41.7 Sep/22
    Poland -44.2 Sep/22
    United Kingdom -49 Sep/22
    Greece -51.2 Sep/22
    Netherlands -59 Sep/22
    (For the record, I continue to think leaving the EU was the right choice. But let's please deal in actual facts rather than made up shit please.)
    Intriguing that the Swiss are almost as gloomy as us, and the Dutch even worse

    What's up in the Netherlands?
    Everyone is gloomy!

    Here's a chart for UK over time:


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    “She/He wasn’t a REAL Brexiter, anyway” should be formally classified in the Kübler-Ross model as the sixth stage of grief. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1575519175761600514/photo/1
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Two things you probably won't read in the UK press.

    German inflation now above 10%.

    European consumer confidence below level of 2012 sovereign debt crisis.

    Lets rejoin...

    Here you go, from https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/consumer-confidence
    Consumer Confidence      Date
    Italy 94.8 Sep/22
    France 79 Sep/22
    Czech Republic 72.7 Sep/22
    United States 59.5 Sep/22
    Canada 50.14 Sep/22
    Sweden 49.7 Sep/22
    Ireland 42.1 Sep/22
    Malta -9.5 Sep/22
    Finland -18.3 Sep/22
    Norway -26.8 Sep/22
    Belgium -27 Sep/22
    Croatia -27.2 Sep/22
    Cyprus -27.7 Sep/22
    Euro Area -28.8 Sep/22
    Luxembourg -29.8 Sep/22
    European Union -29.9 Sep/22
    Denmark -32.1 Sep/22
    Austria -32.2 Sep/22
    Slovakia -34.1 Sep/22
    Portugal -35.8 Sep/22
    Bulgaria -38.4 Sep/22
    Slovenia -40 Sep/22
    Switzerland -41.7 Sep/22
    Poland -44.2 Sep/22
    United Kingdom -49 Sep/22
    Greece -51.2 Sep/22
    Netherlands -59 Sep/22
    (For the record, I continue to think leaving the EU was the right choice. But let's please deal in actual facts rather than made up shit please.)
    These data are not comparable across all countries, the scales are different.
    That's true - I was lazing posting rather than resetting. Some are 1-100, others are -100 to +100.

    Nevertheless... my point is not inaccurate. We're nowhere near the levels of the height of the Eurozone crisis or the GFC, when where pretty much everyone was at -60 to -80.
    yes but by then stocks will likely have collapsed and will likely be a buy....anyone in the financial markets knows popular sentiment is a very poor indicator of how bad a crisis may get... most people sadly are herd creatures
  • MattW said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    And another video

    The Department of State talking about Nord Stream 2 in January 2022



    @UnderSecStateP
    Victoria Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336?s=20&t=VlDNshCBvcF347TYOmlvZA

    She just comes right out and says it. Tells Russia what will happen. "One way or another" - which clearly means either we get Germany to cancel it and permanently close it down, or we will blow the fucker up

    How can this be an extreme alt-right conspiracy theory when you have this evidence right in front of you? Bewildering



    What isn't bewildering (because it's Leon) is that you haven't noticed that Nordstream 2 didn't move on because Germany halted it on February 22nd in response to Russia recognising the breakaway republics.

    Not only that but even Nordstream 1 hasn't been operating for a month because Russia stopped it. You don't seem to have even noticed that it is Russian policy to cut off gas supplies to western europe.

    If Nordstream 2 had started operating after the invasion, and then got sabotaged, then you might have a point. Your attempts to invent a plausible motive for the US to do something so reckless are completely unconvincing
    This is a bit naive. The US has a clear interest in putting the pipeline beyond use and their national security community has been going on about this issue for years. They're also not unknown to use hard power in dealings with allies.

    At this point I don't think it's correct to call this a 'conspiracy theory' because there isn't an official version of what happened yet. All we know is that the pipeline was destroyed and that it was almost certainly done by a state actor. Perhaps more information will come into the public domain that will clarify how it was done.
    I think it's fair to call it "not very credible", as Russia has suitable submarines in the Baltic, and to get the 8-9000 tonne American ones that could do the job through the Kattegat and the shallow, narrow passages through the Danish islands would be quite difficult to do secretly or require Scandinavian cooperation, neither of which is very likely imo.
    You don't need a 9000 tonne submarine to do it. As it happens, the US had divers from the Naval Undersea Warfare Center conducting experiments in the location where the pipeline was blown this summer.

    https://seapowermagazine.org/baltops-22-a-perfect-opportunity-for-research-and-resting-new-technology/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,332

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.
    Except there was a Nord Stream 2, laying there waiting to be used. We're heading into winter and Germany faced the prospect of civil unrest and growing calls to do a deal with Russia to allow the gas to flow again.
    I share your frustration. There are none so blind
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    Frankly, this is on a par with investing with Nigerian princes.
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    Why is Truss trying to suggest the markets didn’t like the energy help. The energy cap was announced before the Queens death and was not the issue behind the pound drama which was in relation to last Friday’s announcement.

    Because the detail of how it’s to be paid for was not confirmed until last Friday.

    Is the penny dropping on some of you now then? No ifs no butts, The Goat needs a hair cut.

    I’ve been saying it all week, and taking far too much flak. PB. Are. A. Disgrace. (sometimes)
    Keep dreaming - there was nothing wrong with the energy cap - all of europe is doing the same and its been built into the market for weeks.

    The issue was additional tax cuts beyond the energy cap with no justification for them. Remember if the same theory hasn't worked for the past 12 years no-one is going to believe that this time round low corporation tax really, really will generate investment in productivity.
    The energy cap should be a one-off, shouldn't it? Especially now that there's a two year commitment. The cost of the tax cuts is recurring. Especially if they don't achieve their stated aim, which seems unlikely.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    eek said:

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    Nothing to see here - please move along



    The Tories only loss 225 seats and Labour have a small majority...
    In such a scenario I cannot see the LDs only gaining 10 seats tbh.
    Yep - I think that's a flaw in the model but as a quick way of swapping polling numbers to seats I'm happy to ignore it.

    Realistically I think Labour and the Tories both have too many seats and the Lib dems would have 33 or so...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    "We need your support," Kwasi Kwarteng tells Tory MPs in leaked message

    Chancellor says he understands concerns but asks for the party to "remain focused" - adding "we will show markets our plan is sound"

    https://bbc.in/3Rsx4ym
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,332
    MattW said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    And another video

    The Department of State talking about Nord Stream 2 in January 2022



    @UnderSecStateP
    Victoria Nuland: “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    https://twitter.com/StateDept/status/1486818088016355336?s=20&t=VlDNshCBvcF347TYOmlvZA

    She just comes right out and says it. Tells Russia what will happen. "One way or another" - which clearly means either we get Germany to cancel it and permanently close it down, or we will blow the fucker up

    How can this be an extreme alt-right conspiracy theory when you have this evidence right in front of you? Bewildering



    What isn't bewildering (because it's Leon) is that you haven't noticed that Nordstream 2 didn't move on because Germany halted it on February 22nd in response to Russia recognising the breakaway republics.

    Not only that but even Nordstream 1 hasn't been operating for a month because Russia stopped it. You don't seem to have even noticed that it is Russian policy to cut off gas supplies to western europe.

    If Nordstream 2 had started operating after the invasion, and then got sabotaged, then you might have a point. Your attempts to invent a plausible motive for the US to do something so reckless are completely unconvincing
    This is a bit naive. The US has a clear interest in putting the pipeline beyond use and their national security community has been going on about this issue for years. They're also not unknown to use hard power in dealings with allies.

    At this point I don't think it's correct to call this a 'conspiracy theory' because there isn't an official version of what happened yet. All we know is that the pipeline was destroyed and that it was almost certainly done by a state actor. Perhaps more information will come into the public domain that will clarify how it was done.
    I think it's fair to call it "not very credible", as Russia has suitable submarines in the Baltic, and to get the 8-9000 tonne American ones that could do the job through the Kattegat and the shallow, narrow passages through the Danish islands would be quite difficult to do secretly or require Scandinavian cooperation, neither of which is very likely imo.
    The Americans did a large yet secretive military maneuver in the Baltic in June

    https://seapowermagazine.org/baltops-22-a-perfect-opportunity-for-research-and-resting-new-technology/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    I believe People Polling out tonight or tomorrow may be the 'any other leader' moment!

    Has to be one in next few hours

    i reckon YG

    WTF are Kantar doing with their 22-26/9 Poll Should be the last SKS fans please explain poll for a while

    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 39% (-1)
    CON: 35% (+2)
    LDEM: 10% (-4)
    GRN: 4% (-)

    via
    @KantarPublic
    , 22 - 26 Sep
  • MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    Why is Truss trying to suggest the markets didn’t like the energy help. The energy cap was announced before the Queens death and was not the issue behind the pound drama which was in relation to last Friday’s announcement.

    Because the detail of how it’s to be paid for was not confirmed until last Friday.

    Is the penny dropping on some of you now then? No ifs no butts, The Goat needs a hair cut.

    I’ve been saying it all week, and taking far too much flak. PB. Are. A. Disgrace. (sometimes)
    Keep dreaming - there was nothing wrong with the energy cap - all of europe is doing the same and its been built into the market for weeks.

    The issue was additional tax cuts beyond the energy cap with no justification for them. Remember if the same theory hasn't worked for the past 12 years no-one is going to believe that this time round low corporation tax really, really will generate investment in productivity.
    Yes when the energy cap was announced the market reaction was broadly positive and bond yields fell because peak 2023 inflation went from ca. 18% to ca. 11%, this insistence that it's the spend from that causing this is rewriting of history. The markets have reacted badly to the government pledging £45bn in tax cuts and not outlining how it would be funded other than to say "our tax cuts on the rich will increase trend growth rates". We're still at that point in time.
    "Little" things like the obstruction of the OBR, the poor media performances of the new Chancellor, the long delay before next steps are also contributing factors. Confidence generally has been lost beyond the specific measures which were bad enough. It will be very hard to win back without exceptional luck in events beyond their control.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    When does Huw Pill from the BOE get taken away for re-education .

    In his latest statement he blows a large hole in the Truss/Kwarteng defence that this is all a global affair .
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,900
    edited September 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Two things you probably won't read in the UK press.

    German inflation now above 10%.

    European consumer confidence below level of 2012 sovereign debt crisis.

    Lets rejoin...

    Here you go, from https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/consumer-confidence
    Consumer Confidence      Date
    Italy 94.8 Sep/22
    France 79 Sep/22
    Czech Republic 72.7 Sep/22
    United States 59.5 Sep/22
    Canada 50.14 Sep/22
    Sweden 49.7 Sep/22
    Ireland 42.1 Sep/22
    Malta -9.5 Sep/22
    Finland -18.3 Sep/22
    Norway -26.8 Sep/22
    Belgium -27 Sep/22
    Croatia -27.2 Sep/22
    Cyprus -27.7 Sep/22
    Euro Area -28.8 Sep/22
    Luxembourg -29.8 Sep/22
    European Union -29.9 Sep/22
    Denmark -32.1 Sep/22
    Austria -32.2 Sep/22
    Slovakia -34.1 Sep/22
    Portugal -35.8 Sep/22
    Bulgaria -38.4 Sep/22
    Slovenia -40 Sep/22
    Switzerland -41.7 Sep/22
    Poland -44.2 Sep/22
    United Kingdom -49 Sep/22
    Greece -51.2 Sep/22
    Netherlands -59 Sep/22
    (For the record, I continue to think leaving the EU was the right choice. But let's please deal in actual facts rather than made up shit please.)
    Intriguing that the Swiss are almost as gloomy as us, and the Dutch even worse

    What's up in the Netherlands?
    Everyone is gloomy!

    Here's a chart for UK over time:


    Even on the gloominess graph you can easily see where George Osborne wrecked the recovery inherited from Labour.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173
    Just to encourage everyone, the river levels in my approx. area seem to be following 2018 rather than any other year, which was the most 'orrible recent one. This is Ladybower (with the giant plugholes), which waters Sheffield.

    Winter and spring hosepipe ban ? :neutral:



    https://riverlevels.uk/ladybower-reservoir-ladybower-reservoir-lvl#.YzXB9XbMJEY
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Your hero Putin is behind this, despite your desperate attempts to deflect.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited September 2022

    I believe People Polling out tonight or tomorrow may be the 'any other leader' moment!

    Has to be one in next few hours

    i reckon YG

    WTF are Kantar doing with their 22-26/9 Poll Should be the last SKS fans please explain poll for a while

    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 39% (-1)
    CON: 35% (+2)
    LDEM: 10% (-4)
    GRN: 4% (-)

    via
    @KantarPublic
    , 22 - 26 Sep
    Apparently 80% of the fieldwork was done before the mini budget .
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    This CNN interview is..... unnerving

    Retired but articulate CIA guy is interviewed about Putin. He says Putin, according to his Russian contacts, is likely to "go nuclear". Putin may get stopped by his own people but we can't rely on that. Putin has cornered himself like a mad rat, he has few options left, and this is one

    https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1575272663924211712?s=20&t=Xy9RlkbEHgO7xLqfYucKgA

    Watch from 5:23

    He also concludes that if and when Putin does drop a tactical nuke, we won't be able to respond in kind, we won't use strategic nukes because that ends the world. In other words, this might work for Putin, which makes it worse

    There's a couple of pieces to pick apart here.

    Let's start with the obvious:

    (1) What is the target of the tactical nuke? Is it being used as a demonstration of Putin's Will to Power, or is it being used to achieve some kind of tactical purpose?

    And let's not forget that the use of even a tactical nuke on Snake Island is replete with risks for Putin: What if it is a dud? What if China responds by joining the West in completely isolating Russia? What if it precipitates an uprising among his people or his Generals?

    (2) There are plenty of non-nuclear escalations that the West can take. Russia's war effort would be severely compromised if the Kerch Bridge were to fall. How would they then resupply troops in Crimea.

    I'm struggling to see the benefits to Putin, because use of a tactical nuke won't stop the Ukrainians fighting; it won't stop the West supplying Ukraine; and it will pretty much ensure the loss of support from Russia's few remaining sortof allies.
    All Putin cares about now - I suspect - is survival in power. He must know he's made a titanic blunder

    But survival means he has to "win" - or at least do something that looks vaguely like a win. What on earth is that? Even if he pours a million men into Ukraine he probably still faces a terrible slog of attrition against superior weapons in the hands of motivated Ukro troops

    He needs a gamechanger. He has no good options. Only a dwindling list of crap or dangerous options

    So, he drops a tactical nuke somewhere in Ukraine, or maybe the Baltic, or somewhere else. Or an atmospheric nuke to wipe out systems and electronics. Whatever it is: the aim is to terrify the West such that we tell Ukraine to sue peace, for now. And Putin keeps his chunk of the country. A "win"

    That might work: for Putin. At least in the short-medium term. There aren't many - any? - better options for him. He probably doesn't care about the long term damage to Russia. It's all about survival in power
    The moment Putin uses a battlefield nuke in this way - which I agree with you, I think he will, all hell will break loose in the west. People will be fighting each other in the street for the last bog roll in Tesco. Probably best to stock up now.

    One of two things will then happen. Either there will be an immediate proportionate response by the US, probably not involving nuclear but still a significant escalation, e.g. a cruise missile strike on the bridge linking Crimea to Russia. We then hold or breath and wonder if things will escalate. If they do, we can expect the whole thing to go nuclear within a matter of days. Hope you stocked up on tinned food and bog rolls (or heroin and cocaine, for that matter).

    The other possibility is that the west does absolutely nothing. Mainly because the game theory boffins have evaluated the scenario above and decided it most likely leads to a nuclear exchange that wipes us all out. In which case we have to ask ourselves - does Russia therefore win? Is Ukraine forced to sue for peace?

    I am extremely gloomy about the world's survival chances. I'm afraid.

    Since I'm replying to a Leon post: I've also wondered at times if the aliens are here to study us because they know we're a society on the brink, and expect us to blow ourselves up.



    if it got to that level of panic most people in the UK would sacrifice Ukraine for peace...people are not willing to die in a mushroom cloud for ukraine...putin would likely be dead in 10 years anyway with no more appetite for foreign adventures
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    Frankly, this is on a par with investing with Nigerian princes.
    Who knew KYF stood for Know your Frauds
  • kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    Frankly, this is on a par with investing with Nigerian princes.
    Funny you should mention that, I sent one of them 320 bog rolls and was promised that would unlock a government contract which would return 6,000 for me as commission within a month. I haven't heard back from him since, the shyster.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,332
    So the timeline is

    1. America openly vows - if Russia invades Ukraine - to cut Nordstream2 for good, "one way or another" - either by getting Germany to close it down or by "another way". Biden repeats this threat later. Explicitly. Standing next to the German Chancellor

    2. Nordstream 2 is "suspended"

    3. Russia invades Ukraine

    4. Calls grow in Germany, from senior politicians, to open Nordstream2, a move seen as benefiting Putin, financially and strategically

    5. Boom. Nordstream2 is cut for good, one way or another. Fuck, who did that?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    As stated above, I would suggest that people DYOR on this - from a risk assessment perspective I'd say it's only marginally more risky than holding bonds. Just the mere association with the word "crypto" is likely to set off some of the bedwetting boomers on this forum who can't understand new technology.

    If anyone on here genuinely believes the pound is about to crash / disappear / go under / whatever, it is a very easy way of getting your money out of GBP and into an instrument backed by Blackrock and Fidelity that promises to pay the bearer $1 for every 1 USDC.

    Personally, I don't think the pound is about to collapse or disappear in the next few days, but if anyone does, it's a very easy "out" they could research.
  • This has just come up on Bloomberg

    US mortgage rates are rising at a rapid pace, slamming housing affordability and causing turmoil for homebuyers encountering the highest borrowing costs in at least 15 years

    The average rate for a 30 year mortgage soared to 6.7%, the highest since 2007

    On the same strap line - Truss's chances of standing down this year are up sharply
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    +1 completely agreed. 💯

    USDC != USD. Stablecoins are anything but stable and no form of crypto is a stable "investment".

    I mean, if you want to hedge with dollars, why not, um, just buy dollars?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Genius line from Telegraph lobby legend @christopherhope on PM: “There is a global storm, the rest of the world is sheltering. We seem to have run outside, stripped all our clothes off and got zapped by lightning.”
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1575521311161569280
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    +1 completely agreed. 💯

    USDC != USD. Stablecoins are anything but stable and no form of crypto is a stable "investment".
    Ok boomer.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    Scott_xP said:

    Genius line from Telegraph lobby legend @christopherhope on PM: “There is a global storm, the rest of the world is sheltering. We seem to have run outside, stripped all our clothes off and got zapped by lightning.”
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1575521311161569280

    I hate to be pedantic, but anyone using the word 'genius' as an adjective should be tortured to death.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    Frankly, this is on a par with investing with Nigerian princes.
    Who knew KYF stood for Know your Frauds
    Hi,

    I am a former Nazgûl. Following the fall of our dearly departed Lord, I have been left with a substantial quantity of mithril. Due to the actions of Gondorian Occupation Forces, I cannot sell this myself. However….
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Well, firstly that article is from over a month ago, when German gas storage levels were much lower.

    Secondly, you're choosing to ignore the fact that Germany's actual leader - Olaf Schultz - has become a *lot* more hawkish. He's now demanding that Russia withdraw from all of occupied Ukraine, while before he was much more icky on the issue of Crimea.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    gbp usd now 1.1070 very short term crisis appears to be easing
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Chris said:

    I hate to be pedantic,

    I suspect that statement not to be wholly accurate
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    Why is Truss trying to suggest the markets didn’t like the energy help. The energy cap was announced before the Queens death and was not the issue behind the pound drama which was in relation to last Friday’s announcement.

    Because the detail of how it’s to be paid for was not confirmed until last Friday.

    Is the penny dropping on some of you now then? No ifs no butts, The Goat needs a hair cut.

    I’ve been saying it all week, and taking far too much flak. PB. Are. A. Disgrace. (sometimes)
    Keep dreaming - there was nothing wrong with the energy cap - all of europe is doing the same and its been built into the market for weeks.

    The issue was additional tax cuts beyond the energy cap with no justification for them. Remember if the same theory hasn't worked for the past 12 years no-one is going to believe that this time round low corporation tax really, really will generate investment in productivity.
    The energy cap should be a one-off, shouldn't it? Especially now that there's a two year commitment. The cost of the tax cuts is recurring. Especially if they don't achieve their stated aim, which seems unlikely.
    Yep - that was something this site picked up immediately - the tax cuts created a situation where forever more tax revenue was less than government expenditure...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    This has just come up on Bloomberg

    US mortgage rates are rising at a rapid pace, slamming housing affordability and causing turmoil for homebuyers encountering the highest borrowing costs in at least 15 years

    The average rate for a 30 year mortgage soared to 6.7%, the highest since 2007

    On the same strap line - Truss's chances of standing down this year are up sharply

    You appear to be suggesting that 'it's the same everywhere - nothing to do with Liz'. Or have I misunderstood?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    54 to 21 is extinction level for conservatives
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Good grief that’s astonishing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Er... Boom, or what?!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Which of the following do you think would make the best prime minister?

    Liz Truss: 15 (-10)
    Keir Starmer: 44 (+12)

    How well or badly do you think Liz Truss is doing in her role as prime minister so far?

    Well: 15
    Badly: 65
  • Holy shit YouGov
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    On topic, i suspect the chance now depends on how much of this polling collapse bakes in or extends and how much is a knee jerk to the wall to wall drama this week. I suspect the Tories would stop a Lab majority with 35% plus in a GE, possibly 34%
  • Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    That should be sufficient for the conservative party to sack Kwarteng and Truss
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    No really I think it's new and very valuable information that anyone would be told by a financial institution that they were slow to respond because they were unusually busy.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Well, firstly that article is from over a month ago, when German gas storage levels were much lower.

    Secondly, you're choosing to ignore the fact that Germany's actual leader - Olaf Schultz - has become a *lot* more hawkish. He's now demanding that Russia withdraw from all of occupied Ukraine, while before he was much more icky on the issue of Crimea.
    If you were the CIA, would you take the political stability of Germany for granted? In the latest YouGov poll, the SPD is now only 2% above the AfD.
  • Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    WTAF?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Blimey.
    CHB was a pessimist.
  • Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Extraordinary. If they could turn back time, I wonder how many Tory MPs would now stick with Boris. He suffered a polling slump, but for the mid-term they seemed manageable enough.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Good grief that’s astonishing.
    no more than they deserve..when my dad said hes not voting tory again i knew they were screwed
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158
    @Leon

    Cutting NordStream is great for Republicans in Texas and other energy producing states, and terrible for consumers in Democrat states.

    And I think Biden is enough of a politician to want to be reelected.

    Finally: if it was the US, and it came out (and it would come out), there would be a massive backlash against the US in Europe. How would you feel if the Americans knocked out a piece of British infrastructure, even it wasn't being used?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    .
    Leon said:

    So the timeline is

    1. America openly vows - if Russia invades Ukraine - to cut Nordstream2 for good, "one way or another" - either by getting Germany to close it down or by "another way". Biden repeats this threat later. Explicitly. Standing next to the German Chancellor

    2. Nordstream 2 is "suspended"

    3. Russia invades Ukraine

    4. Calls grow in Germany, from senior politicians, to open Nordstream2, a move seen as benefiting Putin, financially and strategically

    5. Boom. Nordstream2 is cut for good, one way or another. Fuck, who did that?

    Yep, that's all that happened in the last eight months.

    A slam dunk case.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    That should focus the minds of all Tory MPs. Act now unless you want complete annihilation.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited September 2022

    On topic, i suspect the chance now depends on how much of this polling collapse bakes in or extends and how much is a knee jerk to the wall to wall drama this week. I suspect the Tories would stop a Lab majority with 35% plus in a GE, possibly 34%

    Ok, ignore that lmao
  • PeterM said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    This CNN interview is..... unnerving

    Retired but articulate CIA guy is interviewed about Putin. He says Putin, according to his Russian contacts, is likely to "go nuclear". Putin may get stopped by his own people but we can't rely on that. Putin has cornered himself like a mad rat, he has few options left, and this is one

    https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1575272663924211712?s=20&t=Xy9RlkbEHgO7xLqfYucKgA

    Watch from 5:23

    He also concludes that if and when Putin does drop a tactical nuke, we won't be able to respond in kind, we won't use strategic nukes because that ends the world. In other words, this might work for Putin, which makes it worse

    There's a couple of pieces to pick apart here.

    Let's start with the obvious:

    (1) What is the target of the tactical nuke? Is it being used as a demonstration of Putin's Will to Power, or is it being used to achieve some kind of tactical purpose?

    And let's not forget that the use of even a tactical nuke on Snake Island is replete with risks for Putin: What if it is a dud? What if China responds by joining the West in completely isolating Russia? What if it precipitates an uprising among his people or his Generals?

    (2) There are plenty of non-nuclear escalations that the West can take. Russia's war effort would be severely compromised if the Kerch Bridge were to fall. How would they then resupply troops in Crimea.

    I'm struggling to see the benefits to Putin, because use of a tactical nuke won't stop the Ukrainians fighting; it won't stop the West supplying Ukraine; and it will pretty much ensure the loss of support from Russia's few remaining sortof allies.
    All Putin cares about now - I suspect - is survival in power. He must know he's made a titanic blunder

    But survival means he has to "win" - or at least do something that looks vaguely like a win. What on earth is that? Even if he pours a million men into Ukraine he probably still faces a terrible slog of attrition against superior weapons in the hands of motivated Ukro troops

    He needs a gamechanger. He has no good options. Only a dwindling list of crap or dangerous options

    So, he drops a tactical nuke somewhere in Ukraine, or maybe the Baltic, or somewhere else. Or an atmospheric nuke to wipe out systems and electronics. Whatever it is: the aim is to terrify the West such that we tell Ukraine to sue peace, for now. And Putin keeps his chunk of the country. A "win"

    That might work: for Putin. At least in the short-medium term. There aren't many - any? - better options for him. He probably doesn't care about the long term damage to Russia. It's all about survival in power
    The moment Putin uses a battlefield nuke in this way - which I agree with you, I think he will, all hell will break loose in the west. People will be fighting each other in the street for the last bog roll in Tesco. Probably best to stock up now.

    One of two things will then happen. Either there will be an immediate proportionate response by the US, probably not involving nuclear but still a significant escalation, e.g. a cruise missile strike on the bridge linking Crimea to Russia. We then hold or breath and wonder if things will escalate. If they do, we can expect the whole thing to go nuclear within a matter of days. Hope you stocked up on tinned food and bog rolls (or heroin and cocaine, for that matter).

    The other possibility is that the west does absolutely nothing. Mainly because the game theory boffins have evaluated the scenario above and decided it most likely leads to a nuclear exchange that wipes us all out. In which case we have to ask ourselves - does Russia therefore win? Is Ukraine forced to sue for peace?

    I am extremely gloomy about the world's survival chances. I'm afraid.

    Since I'm replying to a Leon post: I've also wondered at times if the aliens are here to study us because they know we're a society on the brink, and expect us to blow ourselves up.



    if it got to that level of panic most people in the UK would sacrifice Ukraine for peace...people are not willing to die in a mushroom cloud for ukraine...putin would likely be dead in 10 years anyway with no more appetite for foreign adventures
    That said, it wouldn’t be up to the British people. It would be up to the US and Russian Presidents as to whether it’s time for MAD.

    But I do agree with the general point you are making. I am not sure the Biden Administration would risk a global nuclear exchange on the basis of Putin using nuclear weapons in Ukraine, a non NATO member. Much more likely is a targeted and significant international response to the breaking of the nuclear taboo to permanently isolate Russia until Putin is gone. That will however heighten the stakes considerably.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Crucially, Labour's lead has been fuelled by Con to Lab switchers.

    17 per cent of those who backed Boris Johnson in 2019 now say they would vote Labour
  • Sir Andrew Strauss is right, county cricket is shit and it needs to be abolished.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    +1 completely agreed. 💯

    USDC != USD. Stablecoins are anything but stable and no form of crypto is a stable "investment".
    ++1.

    Every “stable coin” is suspect. I wouldn’t trust any of them.

    If you want short term $ exposure, go to your broker and buy a into a $-denominated money market fund.

    Vanguard does one (ticker VMFXX I think), BlackRock too.

    These funds publish their holdings on a regular basis (daily?) and are audited by real auditors. You can’t say that about any of the soi-disant “stable coins”.
  • Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    Extraordinary. If they could turn back time, I wonder how many Tory MPs would now stick with Boris. He suffered a polling slump, but for the mid-term they seemed manageable enough.
    More likely Sunak would be PM
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.
    Except there was a Nord Stream 2, laying there waiting to be used. We're heading into winter and Germany faced the prospect of civil unrest and growing calls to do a deal with Russia to allow the gas to flow again.
    And now Germany, which had been refusing to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine because Russia might close down their Nordstreams, has no real cards to play to not send those tanks.

    Another great reason it was the Seps wot done it....
  • kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    boulay said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PeterM said:

    fwiw im having trouble accessing a savings account today when i only logged into it last week....just wonder if people are starting to panic and withdraw their saving from banks

    My sister sincerely asked the Fam is she should stockpile, this morning
    On Wednesday there were gaps on the shelves so either people are already stockpiling, or supermarkets are preparing for Christmas. Or something else.
    Very similar in Camden Marks and Spencers. Has been for the last week or so. Suddenly empty shelves. eg No chicken at all, or almost no greens

    Like very early Covid. What's going on?
    I would hazard a guess that the October energy price rise + general malaise at the moment has made people think “Better buy things now whilst I’ve still got money”, whether that be Christmas things or more generally
    ok well onto my savings account....normally when i log in they send me a verification code by sms...this time tried three times..no verification code...phoned them....was on hold for an hour....when they answered they said the verification codes had been sent....i dont believe them,,,anyway then i finally got access to my account.....guy was saying how busy they are.....my guess is people are panicking and withdrawing savings and the company is desperately trying to slow the tide by using the aforementioned
    tricks....anyway my money is all out now and will be heading offshore
    Not a bad attempt to try and sow fear and panic but I don’t think you will start a run on banks by posting this sort of crap on here.
    im doing whats best for my own
    funds...what you do is your own decision...maybe you dont have savings so have less to lose
    Maybe, or maybe I’ve worked in the finance industry offshore for 25 years and understand that it’s tied inextricably to the health of onshore financial markets and banks so unlikely to protect in all cases.

    I also understand that you can’t just open offshore accounts very easily and quickly anymore unless in a crap jurisdiction which also brings its risks.

    But keep up the good work.

    rubbish i have several us dollar accounts already open....they were opened a while ago mind...just a matter of moving the funds
    If anyone is particularly concerned about the value of the pound, or even the pound collapsing, it is very easy to set up an account on Bitstamp or Gemini (two of the oldest and most conservative crypto exchanges) and buy dollars in the form of the USDC stablecoin, pegged to the dollar at $1. USDC isn't a fly-by-night cryptocurrency, it's a financial instrument used to trade in and out of cryptocurrencies and backed by Blackrock and Fidelity, amongst others.

    I'd say you could set up an account, go through KYC verification, transfer your entire bank balance and convert it to USDC within 24 hours.

    DYOR, obviously, but to the technophobes amongst you what I am suggesting is very different to "buying crypto", it is more "buying and holding an asset backed by paper investments (much as any bank will do) where 1 USDC = $1."
    Wow! Do not do this!
    As stated above, I would suggest that people DYOR on this - from a risk assessment perspective I'd say it's only marginally more risky than holding bonds. Just the mere association with the word "crypto" is likely to set off some of the bedwetting boomers on this forum who can't understand new technology.

    If anyone on here genuinely believes the pound is about to crash / disappear / go under / whatever, it is a very easy way of getting your money out of GBP and into an instrument backed by Blackrock and Fidelity that promises to pay the bearer $1 for every 1 USDC.

    Personally, I don't think the pound is about to collapse or disappear in the next few days, but if anyone does, it's a very easy "out" they could research.
    Bonkers. If people want to invest in crypto there is a place for that as a risk asset or speculative gamble as a tiny percentage of a balanced portfolio. If people believe the pound and UK banking guarantees are riskier than crypto assets in the short term they should be re-assured that is not the case, not signposted to extreme risk and zero consumer protection.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    rcs1000 said:

    @Leon

    Cutting NordStream is great for Republicans in Texas and other energy producing states, and terrible for consumers in Democrat states.

    And I think Biden is enough of a politician to want to be reelected.

    Finally: if it was the US, and it came out (and it would come out), there would be a massive backlash against the US in Europe. How would you feel if the Americans knocked out a piece of British infrastructure, even it wasn't being used?

    I should give up - you're trying to reason with an idiot.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Moody's to discuss a downgrade of UK.
  • Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    That should be sufficient for the conservative party to sack Kwarteng and Truss
    I hope so, but I am not sure it will happen, and I am not sure it will undo all the problems that populism has brought the Conservative Party
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    WTAF?
    Surely not unreasonable?
  • PeterM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    -Labour takes 33 point lead in poll last night/today

    - Tories down 7 points in four days; Labour up 9

    -Just 37% of 2019 Con voters saying they would vote Tory now

    -Three times as many voters pick Starmer as best PM as Truss

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    54 to 21 is extinction level for conservatives
    Off to the vets. It's cruel to keep them alive any longer.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Well, firstly that article is from over a month ago, when German gas storage levels were much lower.

    Secondly, you're choosing to ignore the fact that Germany's actual leader - Olaf Schultz - has become a *lot* more hawkish. He's now demanding that Russia withdraw from all of occupied Ukraine, while before he was much more icky on the issue of Crimea.
    If you were the CIA, would you take the political stability of Germany for granted? In the latest YouGov poll, the SPD is now only 2% above the AfD.
    Eh?

    If you were the CIA would you risk massive backlash against the US in a key ally by blowing up some of their infrasructure?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    LOL

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 54% (+9)
    CON: 21% (-7)
    LDEM: 7% (-2)
    GRN: 6% (-1)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 28 - 29 Sep
    Chgs. w/ 25 Sep
  • kinabalu said:

    Labour 46% (+2)
    Conservative 29% (-2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (+2)
    Green 4% (-2)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (+2)
    Other 1% (–)

    Redfield, fieldwork yesterday and today
    Boooooooooo, bigger required!

    It's big enough for me.
    That's what she said.
  • Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING

    Labour have a 33 POINT LEAD with YouGov/Times

    Yes, 33. THIRTY-THREE POINTS

    Lab: 54 (+9)
    Con: 21 (-7)
    Lib: 7 (-2)
    Green: 6 (-1)
    Ref: 4 (+1)

    Fieldwork: Today and yesterday

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yougov-poll-labour-lead-conservatives-tories-n90lqlgf7

    HAHAHA OMFG.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    If Sunak had won, would he have been doing better or worse as PM?

    Better: 44
    Worse: 13

    *Including only those who still say they plan to vote Conservative*

    Better: 36
    Worse: 29
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Well, firstly that article is from over a month ago, when German gas storage levels were much lower.

    Secondly, you're choosing to ignore the fact that Germany's actual leader - Olaf Schultz - has become a *lot* more hawkish. He's now demanding that Russia withdraw from all of occupied Ukraine, while before he was much more icky on the issue of Crimea.
    As a case for "I know it was the US", it's not very convincing.
    Someone has been spending too much time on right wing Twitter again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,332
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Why would America zap the pipeline?

    For a start it's a pre-emptive warning to Putin by the USA: "we too are prepared to do crazy or violent things, so you bluff won't work, we will also go to the brink and maybe beyond"

    In fact this fits perfectly with Deterrence Theory. You should EXPECT America to do something like this, and so they have done it

    There are several potential benificiaries:

    - Gazprom, because it gets them off the hook for 10s of billions in damages
    - Putin, because it means that the oligarchs can't bump him off and go back to normal
    - Norway, because it means they will get even more from their pipeline

    But I'm not sure that the US is that much of a beneficiary. I would have thought Biden would like slightly less US natural gas to go to Europe, so that prices in the US could come down somewhat.
    Yes, plausible, tho I am unconvinced by the Gazprom thing. We are close to WW3, I don't think oil & gas company profits are that important

    How might Washington benefit from cutting the pipe? This links to that CIA interview. The American establishment is "terrified" of Putin going nuclear, he says. Those are his words not mine. So they are clearly taking it super seriously in the USA

    In that light they need to tell Putin quite dramatically that if it comes to it America can hurt Russia in multiple ways without actually lobbing missiles. America can cut Russia's gas exports, and cripple its economy, just by blowing up a pipeline. Et voila
    On the one hand this means Americans picture Putin saying "damn, I was going to use a nuclear weapon but Biden might cut off the gas supply to western Europe if I do, so I'd better not"

    On the other it means Biden said, "what the hell, this might destroy the unity of the western countries, and destroy whatever moral high ground we have with neutrals, in order to "scare" Putin by closing a pipe he's already closed. Let's go for it!"
    Except that Biden said he would do exactly this. Cut the pipeline. Without asking Germany


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."

    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"

    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that." http://abcn.ws/3B5SScx

    https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662?s=20&t=Mk8PZkGOOxgvaSv3e3Mrvw


    Biden didn't give a particular fuck about Germany then, so maybe he doesn't now
    There is no NordStream 2. That happened right at the beginning of the invasion.

    Really?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/08/19/reopen-nord-stream-2-ease-energy-crisis-senior-german-politician/



    "Reopen Nord Stream 2 to ease our energy crisis, senior German politician urges
    Remarks over halted pipeline project have been criticised for 'strengthening Russia's false narratives'"

    A senior figure within one of Germany's ruling parties has said the controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline with Russia should be reopened, in a sign of an emerging rift over energy supplies as winter approaches.

    "We should open Nord Stream 2 as soon as possible to fill our gas storage facilities for the winter," Wolfgang Kubicki, deputy head of the FDP, told Germany’s RND news group on Friday.

    Opening the pipeline would help people stay warm in the winter and protect German industry, said Mr Kubicki, whose party is the junior coalition partner to the SPD and the Greens."

    Oh, wait, no, you can't do that, because America just blew it up. Soz, Germany
    Well, firstly that article is from over a month ago, when German gas storage levels were much lower.

    Secondly, you're choosing to ignore the fact that Germany's actual leader - Olaf Schultz - has become a *lot* more hawkish. He's now demanding that Russia withdraw from all of occupied Ukraine, while before he was much more icky on the issue of Crimea.


    As that article shows, reopening Nordstream2 - or just the idea if reopening it - was seen as helping Putin

    Why then would Putin permanently destroy this pipeline, if he's got senior German politicians wanting to reopen it and pay him for gas? Increasing Russia's leverage?

    It's not a slam dunk but if you ask Cui Bono from the sabotage, the answer is: the USA (and Ukraine), not Putin

    And America expressly said they would do this!

    Like I say, not proven yet, but dismissing this plausible scenario as a "mad Trumpite fantasy", as some do, is really quite bizarre



  • rcs1000 said:

    @Leon

    Cutting NordStream is great for Republicans in Texas and other energy producing states, and terrible for consumers in Democrat states.

    And I think Biden is enough of a politician to want to be reelected.

    Finally: if it was the US, and it came out (and it would come out), there would be a massive backlash against the US in Europe. How would you feel if the Americans knocked out a piece of British infrastructure, even it wasn't being used?

    That was standard throughout the Cold War when anti-Americanism in Western Europe had a much harder edge.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited September 2022
    Survation 21 point lead

    NEW Westminster Voting Intention. Largest Labour lead (21 points) we've ever recorded.

    CON 28% (-5)
    LAB 49% (+6)
    LD 11% (nc)
    SNP 5% (+1)
    GRE 1% (-2)
    Others 7% (+2)
    *Changes in comparison to Survation polling September 5th 2022

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1575522804644007941
This discussion has been closed.