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It’s a 41% betting chance that Truss won’t survive 2023 – politicalbetting.com

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  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    You have singularly failed to see the political point. As one of the few remaining "the World Bank must be socialists" loons I can understand why.

    Interest rates had to go up. We all know that. But going up by a lot more on top because lunatics have taken over government will not work politically. The special fiscal operation is widely seen as unfair. It gets the direct blame for mortgages going up - ALL he blame if you look at yesterday's Daily Mail. And we still have the rest of the inflationary cost of living bomb, energy bills, services crumbling away etc etc.
    Do you want a government that does everything it can to get good headlines the next day, or a government that takes hard decisions that put us in a better position in the years and decades to come?
    That’s an odd either/or to offer given Truss isn’t doing either.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Cyclefree said:

    The issue seems to me to be that it is unclear what the overall strategy is and how it all fits together. Seeking to stimulate growth is not in itself a bad thing. How it is done and how the spending is to be paid for is what is unclear.

    It's as if the government has read out half a Budget speech and left the rest at home. We will get that at some point one hopes. In the meanwhile everyone from traders down fills in the gaps and the government has lost control of the narrative.

    It might have been wiser to have had an emergency statement about energy support and then a proper Budget with all the measures and assumptions later, with proper preparation. Now the government has lost control and will be seen to be reacting to events, whatever it does...

    It might still make sense to do that, and bring back their budget proposals as a complete package, fully costed and with accompanying OBR report, rather than pretending it will all be sorted out when they announce the brilliant details of their growth plan in a month's time.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    Mr. Eagles, do you think MPs will actually act against Truss imminently?

    12 month rule apparently
    Boris Johnson was safe thanks to the 12 months rule but was ousted 1 month in the 12 months.

    If a sufficient number of Tory MPs are revolting she’ll be gone.
    That is a bit unkind on Tory MPs. I'm sure some of them aren't revolting.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    The pound wasn’t looking too healthy when I just checked - Asian markets not liking the IMF stuff?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    Hmm. I think the one thing certain to restore confidence to the markets would be a GE with a Labour win.

    What a contrast to 3 years ago.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Vulcan this morning saying a recession is coming.

    I thought Truss had forbidden a recession...

    King Canute tried to hold back the tide - it isn't going to work..
    Poor Cnut had more sense than to think he actually could defy the tides though.

    Today's politicians think if you say it often enough anything becomes true.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    How it started, how it’s going.

    Tory manifesto 2019 ➡️ Mail Online 2022. https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1575026771011194880/photo/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    Classic. Starmer has been leading for awhile but only now they react, of course.
  • These people, who also told us Brexit would be a cost-free exercise in prosperity, are entirely unhinged!
    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/28/daniel-hannan-no-the-pound-isnt-crashing-because-of-a-trifling-batch-of-tax-cuts/
  • pingping Posts: 3,724

    The pound wasn’t looking too healthy when I just checked - Asian markets not liking the IMF stuff?

    It’s pretty stable, to be fair

    $1.065-1.07 ish
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    Cue meme of Comical Ali
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    moonshine said:

    For those unaware, the head of the IMF Kristalina Georgieva is a Bulgarian economist who served as an EU Commissioner from 2010 to 2016, and was Juncker’s Vice President of the Commission at the time of the Brexit vote.

    Now I wonder why the IMF might make a political intervention beyond their remit… could it perchance be because of an institutional bias against a low tax, loose regulation Britain off the coast of the Single Market?

    You have lost it when you start attacking the IMF and Credit Rating Agencies.

    Look closer to home.
    The head of the IMF has deep scandal surrounding her for manipulating data in support of China’s investment attractiveness when at the world bank. Somehow she survived that. But a Bulgarian technocrat with a very strong whiff around her? Nope, not taking her institution’s extraordinary intervention at face value. Sorry for not being naive about how the world works. I’ve seen corruption up close and I realised many years ago that both Russia and China think they are engaged in conflict with the West.

    As for credit rating agencies, I do hope you’re joking. I’ll excuse you for not personally knowing some of the incompetents that work there like I do. But I can’t excuse you for having singularly missed the public consequences of their incompetence in 2008.
  • DougSeal said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    An early contender for “I am a total loser” comment-of-the-day
    Bit early to be this drunk. Even for you.
    Is the Mycroft Holmes of Camden Town in this time zone though?
    I am not sure he has quite the intellect of Mycroft. More like the Phantom Raspberry Blower of Old Camden Town.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    To be fair at least he didnt lay the whole blame for the crisis (all crises) on Gordon Brown.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited September 2022

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    You have singularly failed to see the political point. As one of the few remaining "the World Bank must be socialists" loons I can understand why.

    Interest rates had to go up. We all know that. But going up by a lot more on top because lunatics have taken over government will not work politically. The special fiscal operation is widely seen as unfair. It gets the direct blame for mortgages going up - ALL he blame if you look at yesterday's Daily Mail. And we still have the rest of the inflationary cost of living bomb, energy bills, services crumbling away etc etc.
    Do you want a government that does everything it can to get good headlines the next day, or a government that takes hard decisions that put us in a better position in the years and decades to come?
    That’s an odd either/or to offer given Truss isn’t doing either.
    Do you think that ultra-low interest rates could go on forever with a different government?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    This is hate speech pure and simple.
    If this is what passes for Western Civilisation then I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave. As the father of three mixed race children, grandchildren of immigrants, fuck you Leon.
    So my white kids, uniquely amongst the peoples of the world, are not allowed to celebrate their identity?

    But everyone else is?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    That might outdo that Sion Simon piece.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The issue seems to me to be that it is unclear what the overall strategy is and how it all fits together. Seeking to stimulate growth is not in itself a bad thing. How it is done and how the spending is to be paid for is what is unclear.

    It's as if the government has read out half a Budget speech and left the rest at home. We will get that at some point one hopes. In the meanwhile everyone from traders down fills in the gaps and the government has lost control of the narrative.

    It might have been wiser to have had an emergency statement about energy support and then a proper Budget with all the measures and assumptions later, with proper preparation. Now the government has lost control and will be seen to be reacting to events, whatever it does...

    It might still make sense to do that, and bring back their budget proposals as a complete package, fully costed and with accompanying OBR report, rather than pretending it will all be sorted out when they announce the brilliant details of their growth plan in a month's time.
    The problem is their growth plan will last less than 15 seconds of scrutiny.

    Low corporation tax removes any incentive for companies to invest - something all the experts ( @MaxPB, @rcs1000, @Malmesbury ) on here agree upon.

    The other way to really encourage investment is infrastructure projects but they are also being killed.

    So you are left with whatever this decades version of an Enterprise Zone is. And that doesn't really create jobs it just moves jobs from 10-20 miles away into the zone..
  • Mr. Eagles, do you think MPs will actually act against Truss imminently?

    12 month rule apparently
    Boris Johnson was safe thanks to the 12 months rule but was ousted 1 month in the 12 months.

    If a sufficient number of Tory MPs are revolting she’ll be gone.
    Boris after a month; Theresa May was axed five or six months into her "safe" year.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    Absolute insanity.

    And to think people believed his pronouncements on Brexit...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    It is fascinating. These eurosceptic-libertarian ultras have been so reliant on feeling betrayed to avoid accountability for their crackpot ideas. In Truss they accidentally got what they wanted - she let them down by not letting them down - and they have nowhere to hide.
    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1575027967167602688
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    Cue meme of Comical Ali
    I like Daniel Hannan. But that is quite a desperate piece
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    "It doesn't matter that White Star are steering this particular ship into an iceberg because Cunard are also operating transatlantic liners ..."
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    Did you see the article that I linked to earlier on family accompanying student visas? A massive increase under this government.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/26/foreign-students-bringing-relatives-record-numbers/

    Students are allowed to work 20 hours per week in term time, accompanying family can work full time. Most of these are from Nigeria and India.

    Is this government part of the GRT?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    For those unaware, the head of the IMF Kristalina Georgieva is a Bulgarian economist who served as an EU Commissioner from 2010 to 2016, and was Juncker’s Vice President of the Commission at the time of the Brexit vote.

    Now I wonder why the IMF might make a political intervention beyond their remit… could it perchance be because of an institutional bias against a low tax, loose regulation Britain off the coast of the Single Market?

    You have lost it when you start attacking the IMF and Credit Rating Agencies.

    Look closer to home.
    The head of the IMF has deep scandal surrounding her for manipulating data in support of China’s investment attractiveness when at the world bank. Somehow she survived that. But a Bulgarian technocrat with a very strong whiff around her? Nope, not taking her institution’s extraordinary intervention at face value. Sorry for not being naive about how the world works. I’ve seen corruption up close and I realised many years ago that both Russia and China think they are engaged in conflict with the West.

    As for credit rating agencies, I do hope you’re joking. I’ll excuse you for not personally knowing some of the incompetents that work there like I do. But I can’t excuse you for having singularly missed the public consequences of their incompetence in 2008.
    If the IMF was saying one thing and the markets were doing something else, you might have a point. But it’s the markets that reacted first; the IMF is just commenting after the fact.

    This isn’t politics, this isn’t he-said-she-said stuff where you can pick which side you believe in. Ad hominem attacks on the critics aren’t going to save us. As per Margaret Thatcher, “There is no way in which one can buck the market."
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    An early contender for “I am a total loser” comment-of-the-day
    You shouldn't refer to your posts in this way @Leon old chap, it takes self-denigration and flagellation a little too far beyond humility. You could perhaps at least remove the "total" from the statement.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    This is hate speech pure and simple.
    If this is what passes for Western Civilisation then I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave. As the father of three mixed race children, grandchildren of immigrants, fuck you Leon.
    So my white kids, uniquely amongst the peoples of the world, are not allowed to celebrate their identity?

    But everyone else is?
    They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    To be fair at least he didnt lay the whole blame for the crisis (all crises) on Gordon Brown.
    He leaves that to Barty
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    The '22 Exec can of course change the rules! That said, I can't see the Tories wanting to inflict a full-blown leadership contest on the country before Christmas. They'd really need a coronation instead. But they lack an obvious consensus candidate. Locals are on 4 May 2023, btw.
    https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1575027634723225600
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1574815174057496579
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    Did you see the article that I linked to earlier on family accompanying student visas? A massive increase under this government.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/26/foreign-students-bringing-relatives-record-numbers/

    Students are allowed to work 20 hours per week in term time, accompanying family can work full time. Most of these are from Nigeria and India.

    Is this government part of the GRT?
    I agree: migration is becoming an issue with this Tory government
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    You have singularly failed to see the political point. As one of the few remaining "the World Bank must be socialists" loons I can understand why.

    Interest rates had to go up. We all know that. But going up by a lot more on top because lunatics have taken over government will not work politically. The special fiscal operation is widely seen as unfair. It gets the direct blame for mortgages going up - ALL he blame if you look at yesterday's Daily Mail. And we still have the rest of the inflationary cost of living bomb, energy bills, services crumbling away etc etc.
    Do you want a government that does everything it can to get good headlines the next day, or a government that takes hard decisions that put us in a better position in the years and decades to come?
    That’s an odd either/or to offer given Truss isn’t doing either.
    Do you think that ultra-low interest rates could go on forever with a different government?
    Do you like lemon meringue pie?

    (I presume we’re doing non sequitur hour…?)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    It is fascinating. These eurosceptic-libertarian ultras have been so reliant on feeling betrayed to avoid accountability for their crackpot ideas. In Truss they accidentally got what they wanted - she let them down by not letting them down - and they have nowhere to hide.
    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1575027967167602688

    Would be a good moment to start floating the idea of rejoining.

    Not for Starmer. Why rock the boat when you're riding a wave

    But it's surely going to happen
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Taz said:
    That's the "Danny" Blanchflower who forecast mass unemployment as a result of Osborne's policies and then had to explain away the jobs miracle that followed with unemployment falling and those in work increasing month after month after month until he ran away to America?

    That Blanchflower?
  • Carnyx said:

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    "It doesn't matter that White Star are steering this particular ship into an iceberg because Cunard are also operating transatlantic liners ..."
    Very funny, but it's not a helpful image because it implies that some other government could simply steer round the iceberg and we'd avoid an increase in borrowing costs. That isn't an option, and trying to avoid the pain indefinitely will only put us in a worse position.

    Incidentally, mortgage rates in the US have spiked to a 20-year high with long-term fixes above 7%.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It is fascinating. These eurosceptic-libertarian ultras have been so reliant on feeling betrayed to avoid accountability for their crackpot ideas. In Truss they accidentally got what they wanted - she let them down by not letting them down - and they have nowhere to hide.
    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1575027967167602688

    Would be a good moment to start floating the idea of rejoining.

    Not for Starmer. Why rock the boat when you're riding a wave

    But it's surely going to happen
    Danny the Fink in The Times says exactly that
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171

    Carnyx said:

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    "It doesn't matter that White Star are steering this particular ship into an iceberg because Cunard are also operating transatlantic liners ..."
    Very funny, but it's not a helpful image because it implies that some other government could simply steer round the iceberg and we'd avoid an increase in borrowing costs. That isn't an option, and trying to avoid the pain indefinitely will only put us in a worse position.

    Incidentally, mortgage rates in the US have spiked to a 20-year high with long-term fixes above 7%.
    Yes, an increase in borrowing costs was coming anyway. No, that doesn’t mean that making the situation much worse is a sensible policy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    @OnlyLivingBoy

    “They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.”

    +++++

    I refer you to your words regarding “Western Civilisation”:


    “I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave”

    I think the argument ends there, don’t you?
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    Did you see the article that I linked to earlier on family accompanying student visas? A massive increase under this government.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/26/foreign-students-bringing-relatives-record-numbers/

    Students are allowed to work 20 hours per week in term time, accompanying family can work full time. Most of these are from Nigeria and India.

    Is this government part of the GRT?
    Is your point that it's not conspiracy, but orthodoxy?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    edited September 2022
    I just looked a couple of the videos of Meloni after all the recommendations on here.

    Best I can say is that she’s young and clearly energetic, but content wise she just seems to be whingeing. They are high octane, slightly fashy versions of the standard opposition stump speech:

    I am cross
    VERY cross
    THEY are to blame
    THEY don’t understand US
    This country could be great but THEY have ruined it
    It’s time for a change
    WE are that change.

    Now in Meloni’s schtick “they” are the globalists and “international financiers” (would those be the ones with the hooked noses Georgia?), but change a few references and it could be any opposition narrative:

    I am cross
    VERY cross
    The Tories/Europhile elite/English are to blame
    They don’t understand ordinary working people/real people/Scotland
    This country could be great but Tories/Brussels bureaucrats/Sassenachs have ruined it

    Etc.

    Because it’s Italy she’ll be around for a year or two then fade back into obscurity.
  • ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    You have singularly failed to see the political point. As one of the few remaining "the World Bank must be socialists" loons I can understand why.

    Interest rates had to go up. We all know that. But going up by a lot more on top because lunatics have taken over government will not work politically. The special fiscal operation is widely seen as unfair. It gets the direct blame for mortgages going up - ALL he blame if you look at yesterday's Daily Mail. And we still have the rest of the inflationary cost of living bomb, energy bills, services crumbling away etc etc.
    Do you want a government that does everything it can to get good headlines the next day, or a government that takes hard decisions that put us in a better position in the years and decades to come?
    That’s an odd either/or to offer given Truss isn’t doing either.
    Do you think that ultra-low interest rates could go on forever with a different government?
    If this was a cunning government plan to massively increase interest rates then:

    Why did the government not convert as much of its debt onto much cheaper long term fixes pre announcement?
    Why did the government announce changes that come into play in April 23 seven months early so we have to pay higher interest for an extra seven months?
  • Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It is fascinating. These eurosceptic-libertarian ultras have been so reliant on feeling betrayed to avoid accountability for their crackpot ideas. In Truss they accidentally got what they wanted - she let them down by not letting them down - and they have nowhere to hide.
    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1575027967167602688

    Would be a good moment to start floating the idea of rejoining.

    Not for Starmer. Why rock the boat when you're riding a wave

    But it's surely going to happen
    I am not sure they would have us back. They will at least need to wait until a lot of reactionary old farts have fallen of their sovereign perches and are singing Rule Britannia with the Choir Invisible.

    If opinion polls demonstrated about 75% in favour they might offer us full-fat re-join. That would be a bigger national humiliation than anything the IMF just said. While it would be fun to laugh at people like @Leon i am not terribly keen on my country having to prostate itself to an international body to atone for the stupidity of 51% of teh population in 2016
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Vulcan this morning saying a recession is coming.

    I thought Truss had forbidden a recession...

    King Canute tried to hold back the tide - it isn't going to work..
    Unfair on Canute. He knew what he was doing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Mr. Eagles, do you think MPs will actually act against Truss imminently?

    12 month rule apparently
    Boris Johnson was safe thanks to the 12 months rule but was ousted 1 month in the 12 months.

    If a sufficient number of Tory MPs are revolting she’ll be gone.
    I think it's a given that most are revolting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The issue seems to me to be that it is unclear what the overall strategy is and how it all fits together. Seeking to stimulate growth is not in itself a bad thing. How it is done and how the spending is to be paid for is what is unclear.

    It's as if the government has read out half a Budget speech and left the rest at home. We will get that at some point one hopes. In the meanwhile everyone from traders down fills in the gaps and the government has lost control of the narrative.

    It might have been wiser to have had an emergency statement about energy support and then a proper Budget with all the measures and assumptions later, with proper preparation. Now the government has lost control and will be seen to be reacting to events, whatever it does...

    It might still make sense to do that, and bring back their budget proposals as a complete package, fully costed and with accompanying OBR report, rather than pretending it will all be sorted out when they announce the brilliant details of their growth plan in a month's time.
    The problem is their growth plan will last less than 15 seconds of scrutiny.

    Low corporation tax removes any incentive for companies to invest - something all the experts ( @MaxPB, @rcs1000, @Malmesbury ) on here agree upon.

    The other way to really encourage investment is infrastructure projects but they are also being killed.

    So you are left with whatever this decades version of an Enterprise Zone is. And that doesn't really create jobs it just moves jobs from 10-20 miles away into the zone..
    I'm not saying it's any good (I'll probably think just the opposite when we actually see them); just that would be a rational way to proceed.
    And engaging with the full budget process and OBR review might get them to rethink a bit.

    Probably irrelevant now, but if they'd wanted a proper hearing for their plans, that would have been (and might still be) the way to go about it.
  • Bad news, everyone; I've posted some football tips:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/09/epl-thoughts.html

    Went for Bournemouth and Fulham at home at 3.55 and 3.25 respectively. And Man United away at 8.8 (versus City).
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    He must have been popping champagne corks when she said that. Any opportunity he gets to very visibly suck the poison out the party the better. Fill the airwaves with Streeting, Burnham etc…
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
  • DavidL said:

    Taz said:
    That's the "Danny" Blanchflower who forecast mass unemployment as a result of Osborne's policies and then had to explain away the jobs miracle that followed with unemployment falling and those in work increasing month after month after month until he ran away to America?

    That Blanchflower?
    Was that the jobs miracle that followed after Osborne had already scaled back the austerity ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It is fascinating. These eurosceptic-libertarian ultras have been so reliant on feeling betrayed to avoid accountability for their crackpot ideas. In Truss they accidentally got what they wanted - she let them down by not letting them down - and they have nowhere to hide.
    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1575027967167602688

    Would be a good moment to start floating the idea of rejoining.

    Not for Starmer. Why rock the boat when you're riding a wave

    But it's surely going to happen
    Hi Roger. See you on the 22nd October?


  • Good morning

    Kwarteng and Truss have virtually assured a labour government in 2024 and at the same time put the perceived mortgage rate rises at their door, when in truth the bond market worldwide is being routed through the authorities aggressive rise in interest rates as inflation is being fought against everywhere
    .
    It is likely about 1% has been added because of the kamikaze behaviour of Kwarteng but even if Starmer had been in no 10 he would be looking at a housing crisis that is hard to see how it is mitigated

    I am old enough to remember negative equity and it looks as if this could return over the next few yeaes, but sadly we have become used to very low interest rates which look like being returned to more normal ones and yes many will be affected but we are not immune to worldwide events

    Labour have had a good conference but the one thing missing is that they have failed to understand that the economy in 2024 is going to be in a very poor place, and ironically they may well have to raise taxes and reduce public sector spending by an amount that to a Labour party will be very difficult

    I do not defend Kwarteng or Truss but at the very least she needs to sack Kwarteng if she wants to have any chance of surviving , and she has a ready made successor she knows only too well, one Rishi Sunak
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Vulcan this morning saying a recession is coming.

    I thought Truss had forbidden a recession...

    King Canute tried to hold back the tide - it isn't going to work..
    Unfair on Canute. He knew what he was doing.
    Very unfair. He was attempting to demonstrate to his obsequious followers that even a man as powerful as he could not hold back the tide. I am not sure that Liz Truss has his amount of self-awareness
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Noone gives a hoot about this crap any more. The only people pushing it are the economy-wrecking Tories.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    For those unaware, the head of the IMF Kristalina Georgieva is a Bulgarian economist who served as an EU Commissioner from 2010 to 2016, and was Juncker’s Vice President of the Commission at the time of the Brexit vote.

    Now I wonder why the IMF might make a political intervention beyond their remit… could it perchance be because of an institutional bias against a low tax, loose regulation Britain off the coast of the Single Market?

    You have lost it when you start attacking the IMF and Credit Rating Agencies.

    Look closer to home.
    The head of the IMF has deep scandal surrounding her for manipulating data in support of China’s investment attractiveness when at the world bank. Somehow she survived that. But a Bulgarian technocrat with a very strong whiff around her? Nope, not taking her institution’s extraordinary intervention at face value. Sorry for not being naive about how the world works. I’ve seen corruption up close and I realised many years ago that both Russia and China think they are engaged in conflict with the West.

    As for credit rating agencies, I do hope you’re joking. I’ll excuse you for not personally knowing some of the incompetents that work there like I do. But I can’t excuse you for having singularly missed the public consequences of their incompetence in 2008.
    The problem is that that piece of incoherent nonsense that we endured last Friday and the inept response to the pressure on Sterling earlier this week is making me agree with people that I would not normally want to give the time of day too. It is deeply uncomfortable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    @Chris

    I mean stuff like this. It is high time for us - those of us who are white - to reclaim pride in our white European roots

    https://youtu.be/QRg_8NNPTD8

    In contrast to previous epochs, this should not mean invading and conquering others. But pride and curiosity in who we are, and where we come from, as white Europeans? Absolutely: yes

    Play those pagan antler trumpets! Have more white babies!
  • Dr. Foxy, that would/will be more effective if there's similar taking place in other major European cities.
  • Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Thats right. People who have lost their homes in the Great Truss Financial Crisis will still vote Tory - for the mince MP who has sneered at them - because Starmer once said something about a woman and took the knee.

    Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Woke does not threaten people's lives. Truss does.
  • Carnyx said:

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    "It doesn't matter that White Star are steering this particular ship into an iceberg because Cunard are also operating transatlantic liners ..."
    Very funny, but it's not a helpful image because it implies that some other government could simply steer round the iceberg and we'd avoid an increase in borrowing costs. That isn't an option, and trying to avoid the pain indefinitely will only put us in a worse position.

    Incidentally, mortgage rates in the US have spiked to a 20-year high with long-term fixes above 7%.
    Yes, an increase in borrowing costs was coming anyway. No, that doesn’t mean that making the situation much worse is a sensible policy.
    I would argue that a chronic problem is worse than an acute problem. Sometimes it is sensible to turn the former into the latter in order to address it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Vulcan this morning saying a recession is coming.

    I thought Truss had forbidden a recession...

    King Canute tried to hold back the tide - it isn't going to work..
    Unfair on Canute. He knew what he was doing.
    True; it was the courtiers who didn't know!
  • Leon said:

    @OnlyLivingBoy

    “They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.”

    +++++

    I refer you to your words regarding “Western Civilisation”:


    “I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave”

    I think the argument ends there, don’t you?

    It was a conditional statement, as you know only too well. If Western Civilisation amounts to blood and soil fascism as you seem to believe, then I will gladly see its demise, because it absolutely won't be worth saving. I hope and believe that that isn't the case, but when I read statements like yours I see the first step on the journey to the gas chambers it is genuinely frightening.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    An ugly post.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,171

    Carnyx said:

    ping said:

    A random comment from a random forum;

    “We need to remortgage in May. I feel physically sick. These 6% rates will cost us an extra £800 per month.

    Truss and Kwarteng should go to prison for what they have done. “

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6390116/nationwide-announce-revised-interest-rates

    ….Somewhat suboptimal for the tories….

    No sympathy.

    When you take out a mortgage you should factor in big rate rises and work out if you can afford it.
    Politically that doesn't work. As @murali_s points out this isn't external factors, this is a bondage queen and her wazzock Chancellor deciding to do something stupid to the economy to benefit their mates.

    High mortgage rates will kill the Tories:
    1. People will lose their homes. Which rather dampens their "everyone should buy a home" vibe
    2. Bankers will continue to make a fortune from this misery. A bad look
    3. Tories can't help sneering and belittling. If you lost your home its your own fault for buying it. Etc.

    Perhaps all the nice middle class people facing the loss of their homes are also remoaner / socialist? Other than well off giffers and hedge-fund managers, is there any group of voter the Tories actually want to keep?
    We'd be facing rapidly rising rates whoever was in government. Truss's budget might have accelerated the process, but the direction would have been the same even if Starmer had somehow replaced Boris.
    "It doesn't matter that White Star are steering this particular ship into an iceberg because Cunard are also operating transatlantic liners ..."
    Very funny, but it's not a helpful image because it implies that some other government could simply steer round the iceberg and we'd avoid an increase in borrowing costs. That isn't an option, and trying to avoid the pain indefinitely will only put us in a worse position.

    Incidentally, mortgage rates in the US have spiked to a 20-year high with long-term fixes above 7%.
    Yes, an increase in borrowing costs was coming anyway. No, that doesn’t mean that making the situation much worse is a sensible policy.
    I would argue that a chronic problem is worse than an acute problem. Sometimes it is sensible to turn the former into the latter in order to address it.
    Lions used to be native in Greece.

    (As it still seems to be non sequitur hour.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    5/ Their mistake was thinking they had economic credibility, and this derives from believing their own propaganda about Brexit.

    6/ Liberal Brexiteers see Brexit as an economic opportunity. But planning and immigration liberalisation, the two big deregulation wins left, could be done just as well inside the EU. Trade gains are illusory because Britain’s too small and everywhere else is too far away.

    10/ Because they believed their own propaganda, the UK government have lost their country’s economic credibility.

    They now have much less room for maneouvre than British govts have been used to since the 1980s.

    Painful choices lie ahead. ENDS


    https://twitter.com/garvanwalshe/status/1574677268290494464
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    He must have been popping champagne corks when she said that. Any opportunity he gets to very visibly suck the poison out the party the better. Fill the airwaves with Streeting, Burnham etc…
    Indeed but a politician who instinctively grabs an opportunity rather than huming and hawing and equivocating is not as common as you might think.
  • Russia to cut remaining gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/GazpromEN/status/1575021274878791680
  • Leon said:

    @OnlyLivingBoy

    “They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.”

    +++++

    I refer you to your words regarding “Western Civilisation”:


    “I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave”

    I think the argument ends there, don’t you?

    You are being a dickhead @Leon and you should stay off the juice. He suggested that if yours was a true refection of Western Civilisation then that is what he would do.

    Western Civilisation is not what you describe. Yours is a perversion only recognisable to right wing nutjobs and dullards. The clue is in the root word civil. You are not being civil, you are being unpleasantly offensive and you have crossed a line IMO.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    A very good article on ordinary Russians' resistance to the state at an individual level - and how it might, or might not develop into large scale direct opposition to the current regime.

    https://tldrussia.substack.com/p/why-arent-russians-protesting-more
    ...Russian citizens have spent most of the past 30 years (or more) growing increasingly distant from their state — though it might be more accurate to say that their state has been growing more and more distant from them. The end of the USSR and the reforms of the 1990s brought about the wholesale withdrawal of the Russian state from the lives of its citizens, ranging from the removal of ideological restrictions, to the dismantling of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. What remained of the state became heavily predatory, using its position and remaining regulatory powers to extract money and leverage from the citizenry and the economy.

    Russian citizens have responded to this, broadly speaking, in two ways. One, as I wrote in an article in Social Research, was to develop an increasing understanding of power as something local, not in the geographical sense, but in the social one. The real power to create beneficial outcomes for an individual’s prosperity and security is understood not to rest in the distant and abstract institutions of the state or the practices of formal politics, but in resources much closer to hand: in relationships with people you can reach out and touch, in a deep knowledge of how things work within the context of your life, and in the coping mechanisms that allow you, as an individual, to succeed.

    The second response has been what I call aggressive immobility — the firm and purposeful defense of all of that individualized, localized power, and the coping mechanisms through which that power flows....
  • Good morning

    Kwarteng and Truss have virtually assured a labour government in 2024 and at the same time put the perceived mortgage rate rises at their door, when in truth the bond market worldwide is being routed through the authorities aggressive rise in interest rates as inflation is being fought against everywhere
    .
    It is likely about 1% has been added because of the kamikaze behaviour of Kwarteng but even if Starmer had been in no 10 he would be looking at a housing crisis that is hard to see how it is mitigated

    I am old enough to remember negative equity and it looks as if this could return over the next few yeaes, but sadly we have become used to very low interest rates which look like being returned to more normal ones and yes many will be affected but we are not immune to worldwide events

    Labour have had a good conference but the one thing missing is that they have failed to understand that the economy in 2024 is going to be in a very poor place, and ironically they may well have to raise taxes and reduce public sector spending by an amount that to a Labour party will be very difficult

    I do not defend Kwarteng or Truss but at the very least she needs to sack Kwarteng if she wants to have any chance of surviving , and she has a ready made successor she knows only too well, one Rishi Sunak

    The obvious pivot - which Starmer and his team have hinted at already - is how we rebuild after the Great Truss Financial Crisis. We invest, and gain a return on that investment. Some of that investing will need to come from government and he's already announced the first StateCo to do energy. Much will need to come from the private sector, and as they are always looking for something sane to put money in there will be plenty of opportunities.

    This final phase of Torynomics will kill dead the stupidty of "who will pay for that" and "what will you cut to find the money". Investment had been turned by the Tories into a dirty word. Their spivvy hedgie friends don't want investment, they just want to turn a quick profit now and not care about tomorrow.

    That has to end. So many of the things this country needs - infrastructure, hospitals and schools fit for purpose, sustainable self-reliant energy generation - deliver both a long-term positive ROI but a short-term boost when money goes to pay people to build stuff who then pay taxes and spend. Which gives other people jobs.

    We used to call it capitalism. Starmer will lead us back there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    An ugly post.
    Your immediate reaction to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine was:

    “It’s time for NATO to disband”
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Thats right. People who have lost their homes in the Great Truss Financial Crisis will still vote Tory - for the mince MP who has sneered at them - because Starmer once said something about a woman and took the knee.

    Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Woke does not threaten people's lives. Truss does.
    I’m not sure Fishing is the core Starmer target vote.

    Tories are in danger of ascribing tribal characteristics to the Red Wall along similar lines to Rupa Haq’s “not really black” stuff.

    There seems to be an idea that the whole North and Midlands is thronging with people who happen to share the same hang ups and political obsessions as the Tory right.

    Culture war is a bit of a luxury for the good times anyway. Probably one reason it’s so prevalent in the affluent US.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Russia to cut remaining gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/GazpromEN/status/1575021274878791680

    Not the highly legally couched language.
  • The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    Currently enjoying the beating from the markets
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    Tied up elsewhere.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    For those unaware, the head of the IMF Kristalina Georgieva is a Bulgarian economist who served as an EU Commissioner from 2010 to 2016, and was Juncker’s Vice President of the Commission at the time of the Brexit vote.

    Now I wonder why the IMF might make a political intervention beyond their remit… could it perchance be because of an institutional bias against a low tax, loose regulation Britain off the coast of the Single Market?

    You have lost it when you start attacking the IMF and Credit Rating Agencies.

    Look closer to home.
    The head of the IMF has deep scandal surrounding her for manipulating data in support of China’s investment attractiveness when at the world bank. Somehow she survived that. But a Bulgarian technocrat with a very strong whiff around her? Nope, not taking her institution’s extraordinary intervention at face value. Sorry for not being naive about how the world works. I’ve seen corruption up close and I realised many years ago that both Russia and China think they are engaged in conflict with the West.

    As for credit rating agencies, I do hope you’re joking. I’ll excuse you for not personally knowing some of the incompetents that work there like I do. But I can’t excuse you for having singularly missed the public consequences of their incompetence in 2008.
    Or in 1997.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    Pulpstar said:

    Russia to cut remaining gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/GazpromEN/status/1575021274878791680

    Not the highly legally couched language.
    Fingers crossed for mild weather, plenty of wind and decent sunshine this European winter.
  • Good morning

    Kwarteng and Truss have virtually assured a labour government in 2024 and at the same time put the perceived mortgage rate rises at their door, when in truth the bond market worldwide is being routed through the authorities aggressive rise in interest rates as inflation is being fought against everywhere
    .
    It is likely about 1% has been added because of the kamikaze behaviour of Kwarteng but even if Starmer had been in no 10 he would be looking at a housing crisis that is hard to see how it is mitigated

    I am old enough to remember negative equity and it looks as if this could return over the next few yeaes, but sadly we have become used to very low interest rates which look like being returned to more normal ones and yes many will be affected but we are not immune to worldwide events

    Labour have had a good conference but the one thing missing is that they have failed to understand that the economy in 2024 is going to be in a very poor place, and ironically they may well have to raise taxes and reduce public sector spending by an amount that to a Labour party will be very difficult

    I do not defend Kwarteng or Truss but at the very least she needs to sack Kwarteng if she wants to have any chance of surviving , and she has a ready made successor she knows only too well, one Rishi Sunak

    The obvious pivot - which Starmer and his team have hinted at already - is how we rebuild after the Great Truss Financial Crisis. We invest, and gain a return on that investment. Some of that investing will need to come from government and he's already announced the first StateCo to do energy. Much will need to come from the private sector, and as they are always looking for something sane to put money in there will be plenty of opportunities.

    This final phase of Torynomics will kill dead the stupidty of "who will pay for that" and "what will you cut to find the money". Investment had been turned by the Tories into a dirty word. Their spivvy hedgie friends don't want investment, they just want to turn a quick profit now and not care about tomorrow.

    That has to end. So many of the things this country needs - infrastructure, hospitals and schools fit for purpose, sustainable self-reliant energy generation - deliver both a long-term positive ROI but a short-term boost when money goes to pay people to build stuff who then pay taxes and spend. Which gives other people jobs.

    We used to call it capitalism. Starmer will lead us back there.
    In normal times yes but 2024 will not be normal

    As far as GB Energy is concerned it is modelled on EDF in France who have just had a 15 billion buy out by Macron and Lucy Powell this morning simply was wholly unconvincing in her explanation about its funding
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:
    I can't actually read below the paywall section to see, but I doubt the Times would be entirely making it up.
    https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1552247068093288448?t=s-koUF6MQsmbQIAsabFhgQ&s=19

    This twitter thread gives a number of examples of Meloni espousing the Great Replacement.

    I am surprised @Leon is offended, as he has made similar claims himself.
    If “the Great Replacement Theory” is just the idea that Big Business likes cheap immigrant labour, then of course it is true. You doubt it?

    But she doesn't just say that. She talks about the "emissaries of Soros" , and "international speculators", of them having a "plan".

    It's pretty obvious what she means, I would say, because she's just copying Orban, who uses Soros to scapegoat everything.
    There is absolutely an attempt to erase/demean white European Christian identity. It’s called Woke

    There is absolutely an attempt to import cheap migrant workers, in part because white European birth rates are collapsing (as elsewhere) but also because: profit

    Is this organised at some high level by a Soros (code: Jewish) cabal? Of course not. Bonkers. And if Meloni believes that I part company with her

    Let’s see what she does in office

    The fact is: white Christian Europeans, if they want to survive as a civilisation, need to have more babies and get a grip on migration: if she believes that, I’m with her 100%

    An ugly post.
    Your immediate reaction to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine was:

    “It’s time for NATO to disband”
    It certaily is a day for non sequiturs
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    TimS said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Thats right. People who have lost their homes in the Great Truss Financial Crisis will still vote Tory - for the mince MP who has sneered at them - because Starmer once said something about a woman and took the knee.

    Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Woke does not threaten people's lives. Truss does.
    I’m not sure Fishing is the core Starmer target vote.

    Tories are in danger of ascribing tribal characteristics to the Red Wall along similar lines to Rupa Haq’s “not really black” stuff.

    There seems to be an idea that the whole North and Midlands is thronging with people who happen to share the same hang ups and political obsessions as the Tory right.

    Culture war is a bit of a luxury for the good times anyway. Probably one reason it’s so prevalent in the affluent US.
    "Culture war is a bit of a luxury for the good times anyway. Probably one reason it’s so prevalent in the affluent US." a good point. Biden or Trump won't stop the US economy, we can't afford frivolous leaders.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Thats right. People who have lost their homes in the Great Truss Financial Crisis will still vote Tory - for the mince MP who has sneered at them - because Starmer once said something about a woman and took the knee.

    Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Woke does not threaten people's lives. Truss does.
    If your mortgage goes up - discretionary spending or next year's holiday disappears.

    Because of this week's issues people will be associating their mortgages going up not with disasters in Ukraine but with the Tory party so that lack of holiday is going to reflect in who people vote for next time round.

    and it's the sort of reason why people won't sit out the next election - they will actually go and vote to punish the party that created the mess and their lack of holiday.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630

    Leon said:

    Giorgia Meloni giving France and Macron an absolute shoeing


    https://twitter.com/fauzkhalid/status/1574950656246394882?s=46&t=eihqjf35Aed1t-wsPWKF4A

    Go, girl

    The politics of division and hate. It has all been done before by the far right (and the far left for that matter). A shame that anyone with half a brain thinks it is anything to be admired.
    The thing about fascists is that sometimes they identify the correct problem (in this case the technocratic extractivist capitalism of France) but never have the correct solution (notice how she only wants to liberate Africa from "some" Europeans, and that the problem with these things is that it creates immigration, not it's inherent immorality). The thing is that fascism is a defence of industry and capitalists against workers and their unions, and the anticapitalist rhetoric is just that: rhetoric. All the immigrant bashing and nationalism is an attempt to split class concerns up into nation concerns...

    I am increasingly pessimistic about Europe and the EU - with Hungary, Poland and Italy the way they are, and France only one bad election away from Le Penn, maybe we should want the EU to break up rather than become a new axis for neo fascist collaboration.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Leon said:

    @OnlyLivingBoy

    “They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.”

    +++++

    I refer you to your words regarding “Western Civilisation”:


    “I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave”

    I think the argument ends there, don’t you?

    It was a conditional statement, as you know only too well. If Western Civilisation amounts to blood and soil fascism as you seem to believe, then I will gladly see its demise, because it absolutely won't be worth saving. I hope and believe that that isn't the case, but when I read statements like yours I see the first step on the journey to the gas chambers it is genuinely frightening.
    Disgusting rather than frightening
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    It's Labour conference week.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Just caught the end of SKS on Today this morning on my way back from the doctors. Quite impressive, I thought. His instant calling out of the racist comment by Rupa Huq was a nice change too. He's had a good week and he is right to emphasise how far Labour has come after the Corbyn disaster.

    Of course fish and barrels come to mind in attacking the present government but his predecessor would have contrived a miss or even been talking about a different barrel somewhere else in the world.

    Has he worked out what a woman is yet?
    Thats right. People who have lost their homes in the Great Truss Financial Crisis will still vote Tory - for the mince MP who has sneered at them - because Starmer once said something about a woman and took the knee.

    Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Woke does not threaten people's lives. Truss does.
    If your mortgage goes up - discretionary spending or next year's holiday disappears.

    Because of this week's issues people will be associating their mortgages going up not with disasters in Ukraine but with the Tory party so that lack of holiday is going to reflect in who people vote for next time round.

    and it's the sort of reason why people won't sit out the next election - they will actually go and vote to punish the party that created the mess and their lack of holiday.
    Stock market crashing too so that's the middle classes pissed off
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    Scott_xP said:

    Vintage Hannan...

    From @DanielJHannan: No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of @Keir_Starmer. https://bit.ly/3LLXv0R

    To be fair at least he didnt lay the whole blame for the crisis (all crises) on Gordon Brown.
    Hannan is the devalued face of a devalued government.
  • - “… something that CON MPs in marginal seats will only be too aware of.“

    The latest polls indicate a complete Conservative wipeout in both Scotland and Wales.

    That would result in a Con seat distribution of perhaps:

    England 250 seats
    Scotland 0 seats
    Wales 0 seats
    N Ireland 0 seats

    Not a good look for a supposedly “Unionist” party.

    If they only get 250 seats they wouldn’t even be a majority in their home country England. They could easily not even win a plurality there.

    This is an existential problem not just for the Conservatives, but for all Unionists, which is why Labour are trying to throw them as many lifelines they can without seriously pissing off their own base.

    The distribution of seats matters. It looks like the Tories are well on their way to being a sect.

    Even if the Tories drop to 250 that isn't low enough for a Labour majority so I'm not tempted to back that. Wales will be good for them but I'm not expecting any gains in Scotland.
    I’d be amazed if Labour don’t make 1 or 2 gains in Scotland, at the very least. Although the SNP have a consistent poll lead of 21-24 points, it ought not to be beyond SLab’s gumption to manage a handful of gains. Mind you, never overestimate SLab has become an accepted wisdom in Scottish politics.

    That said, moving from 1 to say 6 SLab seats doesn’t really help Starmer. He probably needs at least 15-20 Scottish seats for Lab Maj, and that requires a 12 point swing. That task looks to be beyond Anas Sarwar and the dunderheids.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    What was the verdict on Huq yday?

    Did anyone listen to the whole thing? Was it:

    a) we have moved on so far in this country that you wouldn't even know the [black] chancellor is black; or
    b) he is a traitor to his race what with his Eton this and fancy voice?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Vulcan this morning saying a recession is coming.

    I thought Truss had forbidden a recession...

    King Canute tried to hold back the tide - it isn't going to work..
    Unfair on Canute. He knew what he was doing.
    TBF, this lot are quite close to being Cnuts. Just two middle letters swapped.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    @OnlyLivingBoy

    “They can celebrate their identity. They can't demote my kids to second class citizens or treat them as though they are a threat to their existence, just by being here. Hopefully you are not filling their minds with this kind of poison.”

    +++++

    I refer you to your words regarding “Western Civilisation”:


    “I will gladly participate in its murder and dance on its grave”

    I think the argument ends there, don’t you?

    It was a conditional statement, as you know only too well. If Western Civilisation amounts to blood and soil fascism as you seem to believe, then I will gladly see its demise, because it absolutely won't be worth saving. I hope and believe that that isn't the case, but when I read statements like yours I see the first step on the journey to the gas chambers it is genuinely frightening.
    Disgusting rather than frightening
    You wanted Putin to conquer Ukraine via the “disbanding of NATO”

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited September 2022
    Driver said:

    The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    It's Labour conference week.
    And also UK Gilts meltdown and International Gilt Crisis week.
  • The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    It is accepted that in conference season that Truss would not be expected to make public announcements
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    TimS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Russia to cut remaining gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/GazpromEN/status/1575021274878791680

    Not the highly legally couched language.
    Fingers crossed for mild weather, plenty of wind and decent sunshine this European winter.
    Uncross your fingers. We need rain far more than we need sun, or next summer we'll be in full reluctant Turkish conscript territory.

    Moreover, if we have sun it will probably be cold and still. Wet and windy is your friend because it will be warmer.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    TOPPING said:

    What was the verdict on Huq yday?

    Did anyone listen to the whole thing? Was it:

    a) we have moved on so far in this country that you wouldn't even know the [black] chancellor is black; or
    b) he is a traitor to his race what with his Eton this and fancy voice?

    Very definitely (b).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760

    The strange case of the Disappearing Truss continues. Where is Our Lady of Bondage ?

    It is accepted that in conference season that Truss would not be expected to make public announcements
    How convenient for her.
This discussion has been closed.