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Starmer’s speech gets a good reception – politicalbetting.com

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  • IshmaelZ said:

    I see Starmer has repeated the neo-fascistic language about Labour being the "political wing of the British people".

    Has he? Starmer may be useless, and his speech a disaster, but your assertion is a stretch.
    Sir Keir Starmer finishes his speech by echoing Tony Blair, saying "we are the party of the centre ground - once again the political wing of the British people"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1574764614470062086
    So THIS is how YOU define"fascist"? THAT's the stretch!
    If Ron DeSantis said, "We are the political wing of the American people," how would it make you feel?
    Like he's talking his usual bullshit. Can see why you might feel the same re: Starmer.

    Still zero reason to label EITHER remark as "fascist".
    The word fascist gets overused far too much, but equating the people/state with the party is absolutely a principle of fascism, as well as similar one party state authoritarians.
    That, and "the political wing of" is an expression I have only otherwise heard of Sinn Fein/ira during the troubles. How tin eared can you get?
    99 per cent (figure plucked from thin air) of listeners will recognise it from Tony Blair's ".... political wing of the British people", especially given it was so widely briefed that Starmer would say that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    You'll be wanting to abolish all state schools then?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rly?

    My betting decision of the day is not to top up on lab majority. Sks is not looking like Ed mil, but he could be a Cameron looking like an easy winner but having to settle for a lib dem fudge

    Well, he does need a Blair '97-scale swing to achieve a majority of one, so a Hung Parliament still seems the most likely outcome. Besides which, despite the Tories' awful polling performances, we have to remember that (accounting for the relative probability of different age groups actually bothering to cast a vote,) the over 55s constitute over half of the entire electorate, and they're likely to keep breaking heavily for the Conservatives. That should be enough to keep the Tories in the game even if they're so badly mauled amongst younger cohorts that their Parliamentary majority is erased.

    Indeed, it's arguable that the ideal scenario for the next GE would be one in which the Conservatives end up as the largest single party, Labour has to rely on both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats for support, and Starmer ends up being dragged kicking and screaming into legislating for electoral reform. A broadly proportional voting system would probably prevent the Conservative Party from ever winning a majority again, and would make it hard for it to return to power full stop for so long as it represents the interests of multi-millionaires, elderly homeowners and no-one else.
    It would also make it near impossible for Labour to ever win a majority again or for a government implementing socialism to get a majority again, even Attlee in 1945, Wilson in 1966 or Blair in 1997 would have failed to get a majority with PR.

    The LDs would normally be kingmakers, as 2010 showed they can go with the Tories as much as Labour. A Corbyn Left Party would emerge with seats which Labour would need to do deals with along with the Greens to have any hope of government and a Farage Nationalist party too would also win seats with which the Tories would also eventually have to probably do deals
    The Greens would be the biggest winners I expect. Right place at the right time. They'd need to get a few more sensible policies first though.

    I doubt a Faragiste party would do particularly well under PR unless the Tories vacated the nationalist space and moved closer to the centre.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,841
    edited September 2022



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    rcs1000 said:

    I see Starmer has repeated the neo-fascistic language about Labour being the "political wing of the British people".

    Has he? Starmer may be useless, and his speech a disaster, but your assertion is a stretch.
    Sir Keir Starmer finishes his speech by echoing Tony Blair, saying "we are the party of the centre ground - once again the political wing of the British people"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1574764614470062086
    So THIS is how YOU define"fascist"? THAT's the stretch!
    If Ron DeSantis said, "We are the political wing of the American people," how would it make you feel?
    Like he's talking his usual bullshit. Can see why you might feel the same re: Starmer.

    Still zero reason to label EITHER remark as "fascist".
    The word fascist gets overused far too much, but equating the people/state with the party is absolutely a principle of fascism, as well as similar one party state authoritarians.
    Shall we ask @Dynamo?

    He seems to have some fairly strong views about what defines fascist/Nazi.
    He's probably got more first-hand experience tbf.
  • MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think you're just going through a bout of general pessimism and it's skewing your judgment.
    I think you're just going through a bout of general denial and it's skewing your judgement.
  • MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    The key thing is that there has been a total loss of confidence in the UK government, not in the UK per se. It's been building and last Friday just tipped everything over the edge. While that is not great is does mean it is fixable.

  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    There is a great opening for Labour to offer a more interventionist alternative to the faux-supply side growth policies of the Tories, so long as they don't go mad.

    The GB energy proposal will be universally popular and is just one of those things that feels right for the times we live in. Supporting a massive push on insulation and energy efficiency is also timely. Nationalising what's left of privatised rail is less exciting to be honest.

    The other supply side reform someone needs to promise - either Labour or the Lib Dems - is something on pre-school childcare. Probably the single biggest blocker to more people in prime working age entering or re-entering the labour market. The Tory proposal (is it still out there) to lift the ratio of kids to staff is one small drop in the ocean but they need only look at state support for childcare in Scandinavia or France to see how his contributes directly to labour market participation and productivity.

    Yes, extend childcare down to ages 1-4 and make it 35h per week all year round rather than this idiotic term time only funding. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, we need to support families in having kids.

    If Labour propose that and fund it with some tax on old people they'll get my vote (and my wife's!).
    So a wealth tax to fund social care (both young and old). Sounds a winner....
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rly?

    My betting decision of the day is not to top up on lab majority. Sks is not looking like Ed mil, but he could be a Cameron looking like an easy winner but having to settle for a lib dem fudge

    Well, he does need a Blair '97-scale swing to achieve a majority of one, so a Hung Parliament still seems the most likely outcome. Besides which, despite the Tories' awful polling performances, we have to remember that (accounting for the relative probability of different age groups actually bothering to cast a vote,) the over 55s constitute over half of the entire electorate, and they're likely to keep breaking heavily for the Conservatives. That should be enough to keep the Tories in the game even if they're so badly mauled amongst younger cohorts that their Parliamentary majority is erased.

    Indeed, it's arguable that the ideal scenario for the next GE would be one in which the Conservatives end up as the largest single party, Labour has to rely on both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats for support, and Starmer ends up being dragged kicking and screaming into legislating for electoral reform. A broadly proportional voting system would probably prevent the Conservative Party from ever winning a majority again, and would make it hard for it to return to power full stop for so long as it represents the interests of multi-millionaires, elderly homeowners and no-one else.
    It would also make it near impossible for Labour to ever win a majority again or for a government implementing socialism to get a majority again, even Attlee in 1945, Wilson in 1966 or Blair in 1997 would have failed to get a majority with PR.

    The LDs would normally be kingmakers, as 2010 showed they can go with the Tories as much as Labour. A Corbyn Left Party would emerge with seats which Labour would need to do deals with along with the Greens to have any hope of government and a Farage Nationalist party too would also win seats with which the Tories would also eventually have to probably do deals
    Do you mean, young HY, that politicians would actually have to start thinking for themselves about the policies that they intend to support, and explain and justify their real intentions to the electors in order to have to win over their support? This would lead to the fragmentation of political parties as we know them, and obviously to the collapse of civilization.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    edited September 2022
    With Nordstream 1 and Nordstream 2 both down, will Gazprom now be reduced to .... organising high school proms?

    Are Russia's oil export facilities the next to have some really unfortunate events? If so, who does Putin wave his willy-shaped nukes at?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Scott_xP said:

    Three airline industry bosses have criticised the government today.
    ✈️ Virgin’s Shai Weiss: govt should ‘reverse course’
    ✈️ Willie Walsh: ‘I am not sure all these policies were thought through’
    ✈️ Michael O’Leary: Budget has ‘poured petrol on a bonfire’
    https://www.ft.com/content/9bd2e7e6-5bae-425d-be24-7a7b95b263fb

    Nobody going on foreign holidays is it?

    More years of staycations it is then.
    Except staycations will be priced out because the UK will be cheaper for foreigners so demand will be sky high (with sky high prices to match)
  • MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think you're just going through a bout of general pessimism and it's skewing your judgment.
    I think you're just going through a bout of general denial and it's skewing your judgement.
    You seem to think I'm a partisan Tory which shows how little you understand my perspective.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,929
    edited September 2022
    PeterM said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    doesnt make sense for the city to be so big except for historical reasons....it is as big as Wall Street but attached to a much smaller and poorer economy...i could see the major financial centres in the future being wall street and shanghai, perhaps tokyo with london a much smaller player
    The other reason the City is so big as a financial centre is quite mundane: time zones. 24-hour dealing passes from Tokyo to London to New York and back to Tokyo. Rival European centres like Frankfurt and Paris will be looking at London's missteps this week.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think that is unduly negative.

    London retains an excellent legal system, a deep pool of talented labour, and a relatively free labour market.

    There are challenges - but I would suggest that most of the challenges are actually to do with the fact that business can increasingly be done from anywhere, and so therefore the need for centres like London has diminished somewhat. (It's not that they disappear... but maybe they're a little less important.)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think you're just going through a bout of general pessimism and it's skewing your judgment.
    No, I'm just looking at the fundamentals of why so many international funds and banks are here. I work for one and stability was part of the decision making process when we committed to London as our international HQ outside of our home country - stability brings access to capital. If we have a situation where investors are worried about the future of the UK economy they will find some other country to park their money and loads of high value jobs disappear.
  • Jonathan said:

    It is great to see Labour looking strong and politically nimble. Just in time.

    Strong and stable and a big lead in the polls. Now where have I heard of that before?
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "We have higher yields or a high cost of borrowing for government than is the case in Italy and Greece.”

    Mel Stride, Chair of the Treasury Select Committee, tells @Sarah_Montague the Conservative party's reputation on the economy is ‘in jeopardy’.

    https://bbc.in/3foohA2 https://twitter.com/BBCWorldatOne/status/1574775191900721153/video/1

    Don’t forget that the ECB is continuing to print money which reduces the cost of borrowing so these aren’t entirely comparable

    The ECB is rolling over existing debt positions, but I don't think is initiating new ones.

    I think Greek/Italian bonds are currently where they are because the market expects that the ECB will treat the Russian invasion / energy crisis, like they did the Eurozone crisis and the pandemic crisis. Basically: their view is that the ECB will always find a crisis to justify intervention.
    There may be implications he said, as the euro traded significantly below 96 US cents.

    The Fed is keeping up the pressure, The BoE will almost certainly respond. What will the ECB do? how far can it go in terms of rates? They are looking at a recession as it is.

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rly?

    My betting decision of the day is not to top up on lab majority. Sks is not looking like Ed mil, but he could be a Cameron looking like an easy winner but having to settle for a lib dem fudge

    Well, he does need a Blair '97-scale swing to achieve a majority of one, so a Hung Parliament still seems the most likely outcome. Besides which, despite the Tories' awful polling performances, we have to remember that (accounting for the relative probability of different age groups actually bothering to cast a vote,) the over 55s constitute over half of the entire electorate, and they're likely to keep breaking heavily for the Conservatives. That should be enough to keep the Tories in the game even if they're so badly mauled amongst younger cohorts that their Parliamentary majority is erased.

    Indeed, it's arguable that the ideal scenario for the next GE would be one in which the Conservatives end up as the largest single party, Labour has to rely on both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats for support, and Starmer ends up being dragged kicking and screaming into legislating for electoral reform. A broadly proportional voting system would probably prevent the Conservative Party from ever winning a majority again, and would make it hard for it to return to power full stop for so long as it represents the interests of multi-millionaires, elderly homeowners and no-one else.
    It would also make it near impossible for Labour to ever win a majority again or for a government implementing socialism to get a majority again, even Attlee in 1945, Wilson in 1966 or Blair in 1997 would have failed to get a majority with PR.

    The LDs would normally be kingmakers, as 2010 showed they can go with the Tories as much as Labour. A Corbyn Left Party would emerge with seats which Labour would need to do deals with along with the Greens to have any hope of government and a Farage Nationalist party too would also win seats with which the Tories would also eventually have to probably do deals
    Do you mean, young HY, that politicians would actually have to start thinking for themselves about the policies that they intend to support, and explain and justify their real intentions to the electors in order to have to win over their support? This would lead to the fragmentation of political parties as we know them, and obviously to the collapse of civilization.
    It would mean nothing of the sort - the politicians would just go off into a room with no press to decide the makeup of the government with no reference to the opinions of the people.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Hold onto your hats! First signs of friction between Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng over the tanking pound are starting to emerge - story by @rowenamason https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/27/no-10-denies-row-between-truss-and-kwarteng-over-sterling-crisis-response
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Meanwhile FSTE100 closed below 7,000.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW
    Money markets now pricing in a 1.5 per cent rise in interest rates at or before the next @Bankofengland meeting in Nov.
    Expectations back up well above 6% next year.
    All follows that speech from BoE’s Huw Pill hinting of big action to come…
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1574784254361337869/photo/1

    An announcement during Kwasi's speech next week would be great...

    BOE base climbing above 6% is going to be as bad as the oft-quoted 15% by of yore. Sure more people are on fixed rate deals now but peoples decisions have been based on low rates for so long that it is going to come with a lot of pain. Anything above 6% will be higher than any time since the late 1990s.
    there is nowhere to go with this
    soon the media will be flooded with sob stories like they were on the energy crisis
    but this time the govt cant intervene and bail people out without causing massive capital flight from the uk and a currency collapse
    game over for those who are overleveraged
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think that is unduly negative.

    London retains an excellent legal system, a deep pool of talented labour, and a relatively free labour market.

    There are challenges - but I would suggest that most of the challenges are actually to do with the fact that business can increasingly be done from anywhere, and so therefore the need for centres like London has diminished somewhat. (It's not that they disappear... but maybe they're a little less important.)
    I think it's more the thought process of "is this where I want to park my money" the answer is obviously still yes, yet there now exists a scenario where it rapidly becomes a no because of government incompetence.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,097

    Not according to PB. The general consensus is it was a shocker.

    That was general consensus among Tory-only fans.

    Fact they are try so hard - TOO hard - to denegrate Starmer and all his works, is yet another sign they are FREAKING OUT.

    Same as with pooh-poohing the Pound Plunge, and/or claiming it's the fault of Gordon Brown, Harold Wilson, Clement Attlee, etc., etc.
    So true.

    One of the worst offenders is Big John the Sheffield Wednesday fan. He pounces on SKS at every single opportunity. I remember him mocking the 4% Labour opinion poll lead a few weeks back.

    Reception outside of the pb forum in the mainstream media seems to be positive.

    But it's irrelevant. All Starmer has to do at the moment is look assured and safe. The tory party pressed the self-destruct button.

    Sure, he's no Tony Blair but we may all be very grateful for that when he's Prime Minister. There won't be too much schmooooze from Starmer but neither will there be an evangelical invasion on a false pretext.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Where @faisalislam elegantly sets out the political and economic bind @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz has put the Tory party:
    - row back on tax cuts
    - massive spending cuts
    - hideous interest rate rises

    Totally self-inflicted. 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63049044 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1574799382611984386/photo/1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Scott_xP said:

    Hold onto your hats! First signs of friction between Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng over the tanking pound are starting to emerge - story by @rowenamason https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/27/no-10-denies-row-between-truss-and-kwarteng-over-sterling-crisis-response

    I'm still giggling at Truss being the author of "Britannia Unchained".

    Fnar....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    A reminder that the traffic is not entirely one way in Ukraine.
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1574762138631131143
    Multiple Ukrainian cargo trucks with ammo were destroyed by artillery fire of the Russian forces (the "Kaskad" unit of DNR) in Katerynivka, #Donetsk Oblast.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    edited September 2022

    Meanwhile FSTE100 closed below 7,000.

    The more UK focused FTSE 250 down 418 points (2.36%).

    Many of the FSE100 earn in dollars overseas so less reflective of the UK economy.
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I'm not surprised - the comments were ill-judged but not racist imo.

    Compare and contrast with some of Boris Johnson's utterances.
    In what world is it not racist to say black men shouldn't go to private school or work in banking?! It's literally stereotyping them. She's a racist moron, glad to see Starmer take it seriously.
    She doesn't actually say that but do I take your point. She is falling back on lazy stereotypes, racist and classist.

    I agree with Starmer's action and it's good if, as reported, she's apologised.
    She is essentially saying that some one is not genuinely black if they come from a wealthy background and that they should not speak with an RP accent. What does that actually say? It says that black people should never have such aspirations, or maybe that they are not good enough to send their children to top independent schools.

    It is actually fucking outrageous An apology is not enough. She should have the whip removed
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Very efficient.

    https://twitter.com/WarInUkraineYet/status/1574760866255409153
    Preliminary results for the annexation referendums in territory occupied by Russia, by Interfax:

    Kherson Oblast - 97.47%
    Zaporozhye Oblast - 98%
    Donetsk Oblast - 98.05%
    Luhansk Oblast - 97.79%
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    TimS said:

    There is a great opening for Labour to offer a more interventionist alternative to the faux-supply side growth policies of the Tories, so long as they don't go mad.

    The GB energy proposal will be universally popular and is just one of those things that feels right for the times we live in. Supporting a massive push on insulation and energy efficiency is also timely. Nationalising what's left of privatised rail is less exciting to be honest.

    The other supply side reform someone needs to promise - either Labour or the Lib Dems - is something on pre-school childcare. Probably the single biggest blocker to more people in prime working age entering or re-entering the labour market. The Tory proposal (is it still out there) to lift the ratio of kids to staff is one small drop in the ocean but they need only look at state support for childcare in Scandinavia or France to see how his contributes directly to labour market participation and productivity.

    Are there comparative numbers for different countries?

    I thought ours was expensive and delivered relatively little.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Three airline industry bosses have criticised the government today.
    ✈️ Virgin’s Shai Weiss: govt should ‘reverse course’
    ✈️ Willie Walsh: ‘I am not sure all these policies were thought through’
    ✈️ Michael O’Leary: Budget has ‘poured petrol on a bonfire’
    https://www.ft.com/content/9bd2e7e6-5bae-425d-be24-7a7b95b263fb

    Nobody going on foreign holidays is it?

    More years of staycations it is then.
    Except staycations will be priced out because the UK will be cheaper for foreigners so demand will be sky high (with sky high prices to match)
    If you want to get through the next few years, build holiday lets. Put a yurt on your curtilage. A shepherd's hut can abut....
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,534
    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2022
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rly?

    My betting decision of the day is not to top up on lab majority. Sks is not looking like Ed mil, but he could be a Cameron looking like an easy winner but having to settle for a lib dem fudge

    Well, he does need a Blair '97-scale swing to achieve a majority of one, so a Hung Parliament still seems the most likely outcome. Besides which, despite the Tories' awful polling performances, we have to remember that (accounting for the relative probability of different age groups actually bothering to cast a vote,) the over 55s constitute over half of the entire electorate, and they're likely to keep breaking heavily for the Conservatives. That should be enough to keep the Tories in the game even if they're so badly mauled amongst younger cohorts that their Parliamentary majority is erased.

    Indeed, it's arguable that the ideal scenario for the next GE would be one in which the Conservatives end up as the largest single party, Labour has to rely on both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats for support, and Starmer ends up being dragged kicking and screaming into legislating for electoral reform. A broadly proportional voting system would probably prevent the Conservative Party from ever winning a majority again, and would make it hard for it to return to power full stop for so long as it represents the interests of multi-millionaires, elderly homeowners and no-one else.
    It would also make it near impossible for Labour to ever win a majority again or for a government implementing socialism to get a majority again, even Attlee in 1945, Wilson in 1966 or Blair in 1997 would have failed to get a majority with PR.

    The LDs would normally be kingmakers, as 2010 showed they can go with the Tories as much as Labour. A Corbyn Left Party would emerge with seats which Labour would need to do deals with along with the Greens to have any hope of government and a Farage Nationalist party too would also win seats with which the Tories would also eventually have to probably do deals
    The Greens would be the biggest winners I expect. Right place at the right time. They'd need to get a few more sensible policies first though.

    I doubt a Faragiste party would do particularly well under PR unless the Tories vacated the nationalist space and moved closer to the centre.
    Which they did in 2015 when UKIP got 12% of the vote, which produced 1 seat under FPTP but would have got 78 UKIP MPs with PR
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    This from Robert Chote, former OBR chair, captures the UK's situation rather well, unfortunately. https://twitter.com/JMurray804/status/1574728420180860932/photo/1

    Interesting comment from a current member of the @bankofengland’s Monetary Policy Committee, which sets interest rates… https://twitter.com/haskelecon/status/1574798913072250880
  • rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rupa Huq = Moron.

    I would be a lot less kind.

    She exhibited the worst kind of racism: an assumption that those with certain skin colour should behave in a certain way.
    Sure she has been stupidly racist but not sure how it can possibly be the worst form of racism. Slavery or lynching for example are certainly worse.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    Should be fine. When has Truss ever been socially or verbally clumsy?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    The news is so so grim for the conservatives.

    Utter rage. Homeowners so so angry, never thought I’d see a Tory government do that

    thought there was an air of aggression in the gym today fwiw
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
  • MISTY said:

    You can tell the right are worried when they try to pin neo-fascism on the rather benign Starmer. Scraping the barrel, or what?
    FFS.

    If you are correct then tory voters have nothing to fear from Starmer. A period of labour government will be just dandy.
    I mean do you really think he'll be rounding up his political opponents, disbanding the Conservative Party and putting them in a camp? What precisely do you think Starmer will be doing during 'a period of Labour Government '?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    Truss really isn’t going to inspire confidence. Her speech is going to be awful
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Nigelb said:

    Very efficient.

    https://twitter.com/WarInUkraineYet/status/1574760866255409153
    Preliminary results for the annexation referendums in territory occupied by Russia, by Interfax:

    Kherson Oblast - 97.47%
    Zaporozhye Oblast - 98%
    Donetsk Oblast - 98.05%
    Luhansk Oblast - 97.79%

    I really don't understand why they don't make the results even slightly believable. Has 97% ever been achieved in any fair referendum? Maybe something like 52-48 would work?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    With interest rates forecast to hit 6% by next year, more mortgage lenders pull or suspend deals - the latest on @ITVEveningNews at 6.30 #mortgages #InterestRate #budget #inflation
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited September 2022

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Three airline industry bosses have criticised the government today.
    ✈️ Virgin’s Shai Weiss: govt should ‘reverse course’
    ✈️ Willie Walsh: ‘I am not sure all these policies were thought through’
    ✈️ Michael O’Leary: Budget has ‘poured petrol on a bonfire’
    https://www.ft.com/content/9bd2e7e6-5bae-425d-be24-7a7b95b263fb

    Nobody going on foreign holidays is it?

    More years of staycations it is then.
    Except staycations will be priced out because the UK will be cheaper for foreigners so demand will be sky high (with sky high prices to match)
    If you want to get through the next few years, build holiday lets. Put a yurt on your curtilage. A shepherd's hut can abut....
    I expect holiday lets shortly to lose a bundle of tax advantages - they are one sector of the rental market which has been ignored since Osborne's tax attacks on the rental sector started back in 2014 or so.

    It would be crazy to leave the exemptions in place when extra taxes are needed.

    (Need to listen to Starmer's speech - did the twit really threaten to nationalise energy? Duh.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited September 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rupa Huq = Moron.

    I would be a lot less kind.

    She exhibited the worst kind of racism: an assumption that those with certain skin colour should behave in a certain way.
    Hyperbole alert: '...the worst kind of racism...' Really? You mean worse than Jim Crow? Worse than apartheid? Worse than the gas chambers?

    She was wrong, she was punished, she apologised.

    Meanwhile the economy continues from strength to strength.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Three airline industry bosses have criticised the government today.
    ✈️ Virgin’s Shai Weiss: govt should ‘reverse course’
    ✈️ Willie Walsh: ‘I am not sure all these policies were thought through’
    ✈️ Michael O’Leary: Budget has ‘poured petrol on a bonfire’
    https://www.ft.com/content/9bd2e7e6-5bae-425d-be24-7a7b95b263fb

    Nobody going on foreign holidays is it?

    More years of staycations it is then.
    Except staycations will be priced out because the UK will be cheaper for foreigners so demand will be sky high (with sky high prices to match)
    If you want to get through the next few years, build holiday lets. Put a yurt on your curtilage. A shepherd's hut can abut....
    I expect holiday lets shortly to use a bundle of tax advantages - they are one sector of the rental market which has been ignored since Osborne's tax attacks on the rental sector started back in 2014 or so.

    It would be crazy to leave the exemptions in place when extra taxes are needed.
    Use? Or lose?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    TimS said:

    There is a great opening for Labour to offer a more interventionist alternative to the faux-supply side growth policies of the Tories, so long as they don't go mad.

    The GB energy proposal will be universally popular and is just one of those things that feels right for the times we live in. Supporting a massive push on insulation and energy efficiency is also timely. Nationalising what's left of privatised rail is less exciting to be honest.

    The other supply side reform someone needs to promise - either Labour or the Lib Dems - is something on pre-school childcare. Probably the single biggest blocker to more people in prime working age entering or re-entering the labour market. The Tory proposal (is it still out there) to lift the ratio of kids to staff is one small drop in the ocean but they need only look at state support for childcare in Scandinavia or France to see how his contributes directly to labour market participation and productivity.

    Yes, extend childcare down to ages 1-4 and make it 35h per week all year round rather than this idiotic term time only funding. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, we need to support families in having kids.

    If Labour propose that and fund it with some tax on old people they'll get my vote (and my wife's!).
    So a wealth tax to fund social care (both young and old). Sounds a winner....
    dont agree with farming children out to childcare for the first 2 or 3 years of their life...
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    People willing to campaign for the Tories in Tottenham are going to be a bit barking. Perhaps another council a bit further south east might suit them better.
  • Jamie McGeever
    @ReutersJamie
    ·
    9m
    There it goes - Britain's 30-year bond yield rises above 5.00% for the first time since 2002.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    edited September 2022

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think you're just going through a bout of general pessimism and it's skewing your judgment.
    Like you over Brexit? At least you are back on the right side now.
  • Driver said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Rly?

    My betting decision of the day is not to top up on lab majority. Sks is not looking like Ed mil, but he could be a Cameron looking like an easy winner but having to settle for a lib dem fudge

    Well, he does need a Blair '97-scale swing to achieve a majority of one, so a Hung Parliament still seems the most likely outcome. Besides which, despite the Tories' awful polling performances, we have to remember that (accounting for the relative probability of different age groups actually bothering to cast a vote,) the over 55s constitute over half of the entire electorate, and they're likely to keep breaking heavily for the Conservatives. That should be enough to keep the Tories in the game even if they're so badly mauled amongst younger cohorts that their Parliamentary majority is erased.

    Indeed, it's arguable that the ideal scenario for the next GE would be one in which the Conservatives end up as the largest single party, Labour has to rely on both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats for support, and Starmer ends up being dragged kicking and screaming into legislating for electoral reform. A broadly proportional voting system would probably prevent the Conservative Party from ever winning a majority again, and would make it hard for it to return to power full stop for so long as it represents the interests of multi-millionaires, elderly homeowners and no-one else.
    It would also make it near impossible for Labour to ever win a majority again or for a government implementing socialism to get a majority again, even Attlee in 1945, Wilson in 1966 or Blair in 1997 would have failed to get a majority with PR.

    The LDs would normally be kingmakers, as 2010 showed they can go with the Tories as much as Labour. A Corbyn Left Party would emerge with seats which Labour would need to do deals with along with the Greens to have any hope of government and a Farage Nationalist party too would also win seats with which the Tories would also eventually have to probably do deals
    Do you mean, young HY, that politicians would actually have to start thinking for themselves about the policies that they intend to support, and explain and justify their real intentions to the electors in order to have to win over their support? This would lead to the fragmentation of political parties as we know them, and obviously to the collapse of civilization.
    It would mean nothing of the sort - the politicians would just go off into a room with no press to decide the makeup of the government with no reference to the opinions of the people.
    It doesn't need to mean this. In any system of PR then there is always the possibility, theoretical at least, of one party getting more than 50% if they can persuade enough of the electorate . Coalitions are simply the result of an instruction by the electorate to go and form a coalition. There is absolutely nothing undemocratic about that unless you are very very muddle headed.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    You'll be wanting to abolish all state schools then?
    You'll be wanting to abolish all state Aid and investment to the private energy companies competing with your green company then?
  • AlistairM said:

    Nigelb said:

    Very efficient.

    https://twitter.com/WarInUkraineYet/status/1574760866255409153
    Preliminary results for the annexation referendums in territory occupied by Russia, by Interfax:

    Kherson Oblast - 97.47%
    Zaporozhye Oblast - 98%
    Donetsk Oblast - 98.05%
    Luhansk Oblast - 97.79%

    I really don't understand why they don't make the results even slightly believable. Has 97% ever been achieved in any fair referendum? Maybe something like 52-48 would work?
    Looks like Kherson folk are not so keen.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Where @faisalislam elegantly sets out the political and economic bind @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz has put the Tory party:
    - row back on tax cuts
    - massive spending cuts
    - hideous interest rate rises

    Totally self-inflicted. 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63049044 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1574799382611984386/photo/1

    We all know it’s going to be number 2. Problem is where do they cut? Local government is already hollowed out. Defence won’t play well internationally.

    Everything other than welfare, education or the NHS will be marginal in terms of the cuts needed. Good luck to Liz and Kwazi getting those through …. It’s going to be a rough few months.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    Quite interesting to see their comparisons for the LTNs - pass laws, Belfast duriung the Troubles ...
  • nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    Post-Brexit Britain. Even Italy doesn't look that politically unstable from here now.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,841



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
    Populism will defeat globalism. Watch this space.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I'm not surprised - the comments were ill-judged but not racist imo.

    Compare and contrast with some of Boris Johnson's utterances.
    In what world is it not racist to say black men shouldn't go to private school or work in banking?! It's literally stereotyping them. She's a racist moron, glad to see Starmer take it seriously.
    She doesn't actually say that but do I take your point. She is falling back on lazy stereotypes, racist and classist.

    I agree with Starmer's action and it's good if, as reported, she's apologised.
    She is essentially saying that some one is not genuinely black if they come from a wealthy background and that they should not speak with an RP accent. What does that actually say? It says that black people should never have such aspirations, or maybe that they are not good enough to send their children to top independent schools.

    It is actually fucking outrageous An apology is not enough. She should have the whip removed
    She has
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973

    Jamie McGeever
    @ReutersJamie
    ·
    9m
    There it goes - Britain's 30-year bond yield rises above 5.00% for the first time since 2002.

    Wasn’t truss going to re package and refinance Covid debt into low interest rates? Lol
  • I see according to some in Labour I'm superficially a brown man.

    Magnificent.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    “Some around Truss think this all just needs to be explained better,” said one business source familiar with the conversations in No 10 https://news.sky.com/story/liz-truss-had-to-be-convinced-to-issue-govt-statement-to-calm-markets-after-meeting-with-chancellor-12706352

    Truss might use her speech next week to explain to the markets why they were wrong...
  • MaxPB said:

    One thing that has been worrying me today and yesterday is that a loss of confidence in the UK will eventually lead to the City turning into a shadow of what it is today. One of the major reasons so many investors and banks are happy to do their business here is because the UK has, historically, had a very stable government and economic outlook. This band of idiots has put all of that hard won credibility at risk and if it continues investors will start moving their money elsewhere and that means banks and jobs will follow.

    I think you're just going through a bout of general pessimism and it's skewing your judgment.
    Like you over Brexit? At least you are back on the right side now.
    Oh, has he spun into another volte face?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Nigelb said:

    Very efficient.

    https://twitter.com/WarInUkraineYet/status/1574760866255409153
    Preliminary results for the annexation referendums in territory occupied by Russia, by Interfax:

    Kherson Oblast - 97.47%
    Zaporozhye Oblast - 98%
    Donetsk Oblast - 98.05%
    Luhansk Oblast - 97.79%

    why the clustering around 98% couldnt they throw in a 95% somewhere
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,841

    I see according to some in Labour I'm superficially a brown man.

    Magnificent.

    Yes but she said sorry so can you just ignore it please, its pissing on Keir's big day
  • nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    Truss really isn’t going to inspire confidence. Her speech is going to be awful
    At least it will be more expensive to import all that foreign cheese.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    I see according to some in Labour I'm superficially a brown man.

    Magnificent.

    "Culturally white" is the most recent one I've had said to/about me. From a self appointed "anti-racist" too. Wankers.
  • nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    If it gets too bad, we could always join the Euro :lol:
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Scott_xP said:

    Where @faisalislam elegantly sets out the political and economic bind @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz has put the Tory party:
    - row back on tax cuts
    - massive spending cuts
    - hideous interest rate rises

    Totally self-inflicted. 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63049044 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1574799382611984386/photo/1

    We all know it’s going to be number 2. Problem is where do they cut? Local government is already hollowed out. Defence won’t play well internationally.

    Everything other than welfare, education or the NHS will be marginal in terms of the cuts needed. Good luck to Liz and Kwazi getting those through …. It’s going to be a rough few months.
    Cuts in education simply aren't feasible. We are running on a diminishing supply of goodwill in the fourth week of the School Year.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited September 2022
    HYUFD said:

    It was an OK speech, pitching Labour as on the side of middle and lower earners and the Tories on the side of the rich. It also offered a few carrots to the left like a new state energy service.

    Dull delivery though, he is no Blair or Cameron as a speaker and lacks Johnson's charisma. However Truss is little better on that score

    You and Owen Jones are 100% aligned. 100%. Almost word for word -
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1574757588843073537
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rupa Huq = Moron.

    I would be a lot less kind.

    She exhibited the worst kind of racism: an assumption that those with certain skin colour should behave in a certain way.
    Sure she has been stupidly racist but not sure how it can possibly be the worst form of racism. Slavery or lynching for example are certainly worse.....
    The one assumption underpins the other.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    nico679 said:

    Truss and co will be walking on eggshells next week . The wrong statement could send the pound into freefall.

    If it gets too bad, we could always join the Euro :lol:
    Liz Truss said she was on a journey. No one checked whether or not it was a return trip.
  • Nigelb said:

    Not according to PB. The general consensus is it was a shocker.

    Can I contribute by saying I was busy and didn't listen to it ?
    (The authentic voice of 95%+ of the electorate, I suspect.)
    No, I heard it. It was an unfortunate drear-fest, but not the Nuremberg Rally Barty claims it to be.
    Give over, I never said it was Nuremburg.

    To be honest, I wouldn't have cared about it, I still don't, and I didn't bring it up. Its just silly nonsense in my eyes.

    But SSI asked why others were making the connection, and I could see it. Its a very weak connection, but it is there.

    But I really don't think it makes any difference at all.
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    People willing to campaign for the Tories in Tottenham are going to be a bit barking. Perhaps another council a bit further south east might suit them better.
    What, like Hackney?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Scott_xP said:

    “Some around Truss think this all just needs to be explained better,” said one business source familiar with the conversations in No 10 https://news.sky.com/story/liz-truss-had-to-be-convinced-to-issue-govt-statement-to-calm-markets-after-meeting-with-chancellor-12706352

    Truss might use her speech next week to explain to the markets why they were wrong...

    Kwasi is meeting with Wall Street tomorrow to do exactly that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    Quite interesting to see their comparisons for the LTNs - pass laws, Belfast duriung the Troubles ...
    The cluelessness is encouraging, in that they will lose through having no meaningful case.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
    Populism will defeat globalism. Watch this space.
    Not If moderatism defeates populism first.
  • The news is so so grim for the conservatives.

    Utter rage. Homeowners so so angry, never thought I’d see a Tory government do that

    Huge mistake to give them homes in the first place. As usual it all harks back to Thatcher.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited September 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Where @faisalislam elegantly sets out the political and economic bind @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz has put the Tory party:
    - row back on tax cuts
    - massive spending cuts
    - hideous interest rate rises

    Totally self-inflicted. 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63049044 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1574799382611984386/photo/1

    Big pressure on the OBR then. What they plug in for "growth" can make or break this Chancellor. Wonder what the controls around the process are?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    bad news on uk natural gas...price has soared 32% today since the sabotaging of the pipelines
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,841



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
    Populism will defeat globalism. Watch this space.
    Not If moderatism defeates populism first.
    This winter will do for moderatism. Also watch this space.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The news is so so grim for the conservatives.

    Utter rage. Homeowners so so angry, never thought I’d see a Tory government do that

    Huge mistake to give them homes in the first place. As usual it all harks back to Thatcher.
    Or even permit them to live in them, are there not enough ditches in the country?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    You'll be wanting to abolish all state schools then?
    You'll be wanting to abolish all state Aid and investment to the private energy companies competing with your green company then?
    Indeed I would.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms
  • IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rupa Huq = Moron.

    I would be a lot less kind.

    She exhibited the worst kind of racism: an assumption that those with certain skin colour should behave in a certain way.
    Sure she has been stupidly racist but not sure how it can possibly be the worst form of racism. Slavery or lynching for example are certainly worse.....
    The one assumption underpins the other.
    Not really. Her racist assumption is all people from a group should think the same way. Slavery or lynching are based on other groups being either a threat and/or sub human. It would be a very long journey from her lazy stereotyping to get to a mindset of justifying lynching.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    Quite interesting to see their comparisons for the LTNs - pass laws, Belfast duriung the Troubles ...
    The cluelessness is encouraging, in that they will lose through having no meaningful case.
    Of course - I'd forgotten you are very keen on urban cycling. Quite. I see 'ghetto' is also used. And it doesn't help that in their historical comparisons the wealthy folk tooling around in big cars were, erm, one colour/race/whatever, and the poor, another ... astounding stuff to come out with in London of all places.
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Faceplants all round today.

    Rupa Hug, whilst unfortunately sitting next to the Labour Party Chair, comes out with some racist tropes about a black Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    (This TBH is hardly a surprise - Huq has always been a loose cannon.)

    Meanwhile a Tottenham Tory Councillor compares low traffic neighbourhoods to apartheid laws in South Africa. Perhaps he drives a BMW.

    https://road.cc/content/news/london-borough-tories-liken-ltns-apartheid-296181

    Need to correct that. Tottenham Tories. Not a Councillor - they don't have any.
    People willing to campaign for the Tories in Tottenham are going to be a bit barking. Perhaps another council a bit further south east might suit them better.
    What, like Hackney?
    I thought the end of my first sentence had wrapped the answer up in a bow for you.
  • MaxPB said:

    I see according to some in Labour I'm superficially a brown man.

    Magnificent.

    "Culturally white" is the most recent one I've had said to/about me. From a self appointed "anti-racist" too. Wankers.
    Polite way of saying coconut isn't it?

    Wankers indeed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    IshmaelZ said:

    The news is so so grim for the conservatives.

    Utter rage. Homeowners so so angry, never thought I’d see a Tory government do that

    Huge mistake to give them homes in the first place. As usual it all harks back to Thatcher.
    Or even permit them to live in them, are there not enough ditches in the country?
    Not so many cardboard boxes thouigh, since reycling came in.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Where @faisalislam elegantly sets out the political and economic bind @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz has put the Tory party:
    - row back on tax cuts
    - massive spending cuts
    - hideous interest rate rises

    Totally self-inflicted. 🤷‍♂️

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63049044 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1574799382611984386/photo/1

    Islam is wrong and has missed the wood for the trees.

    He says that there would need to be spending cuts, but there can't be because the spending review until 2025 will be stuck to.

    Errr, you what? Sticking to the spending review until 2025 is a humongous spending cut in real terms. Inflation at 10% and the spending review was predicated on inflation not passing 4%, so there's huge real terms spending cut there - and one where they don't need to even make any decisions to announce it, just proceed with the "already existing plans".
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
    Populism will defeat globalism. Watch this space.
    Not If moderatism defeates populism first.
    This winter will do for moderatism. Also watch this space.
    i honestly think the only chance for the conservatives now as the economy is screwed is to go full on bnp lite to get the red wall votes...start talking about things like an immigration freeze..fight a full on culture wars battle
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Nigelb said:

    Not according to PB. The general consensus is it was a shocker.

    Can I contribute by saying I was busy and didn't listen to it ?
    (The authentic voice of 95%+ of the electorate, I suspect.)
    No, I heard it. It was an unfortunate drear-fest, but not the Nuremberg Rally Barty claims it to be.
    Give over, I never said it was Nuremburg.

    To be honest, I wouldn't have cared about it, I still don't, and I didn't bring it up. Its just silly nonsense in my eyes.

    But SSI asked why others were making the connection, and I could see it. Its a very weak connection, but it is there.

    But I really don't think it makes any difference at all.
    I listened while doing my admin thus afternoon.

    Better than last years and better recieved. Rather solid, predictable and stodgy but a better delivery. Reassuringly sane.

    I won't be voting Labour, but he could be quite a good PM.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    rcs1000 said:

    I see Starmer has repeated the neo-fascistic language about Labour being the "political wing of the British people".

    Has he? Starmer may be useless, and his speech a disaster, but your assertion is a stretch.
    Sir Keir Starmer finishes his speech by echoing Tony Blair, saying "we are the party of the centre ground - once again the political wing of the British people"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1574764614470062086
    So THIS is how YOU define"fascist"? THAT's the stretch!
    If Ron DeSantis said, "We are the political wing of the American people," how would it make you feel?
    Like he's talking his usual bullshit. Can see why you might feel the same re: Starmer.

    Still zero reason to label EITHER remark as "fascist".
    The word fascist gets overused far too much, but equating the people/state with the party is absolutely a principle of fascism, as well as similar one party state authoritarians.
    Shall we ask @Dynamo?

    He seems to have some fairly strong views about what defines fascist/Nazi.
    He's probably got more first-hand experience tbf.
    Starmer is clearly using populist language. Exactly the same as "will of the people" (much used by Brexit supporters here, so surprising to see them calling it "fascist" all of a sudden). It's also the same as when journalists say things after an election result like "the British people have spoken". Awful.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    The news is so so grim for the conservatives.

    Utter rage. Homeowners so so angry, never thought I’d see a Tory government do that

    Huge mistake to give them homes in the first place. As usual it all harks back to Thatcher.
    serfs should know their place and live in council houses lol
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    With Nordstream 1 and Nordstream 2 both down, will Gazprom now be reduced to .... organising high school proms?

    Are Russia's oil export facilities the next to have some really unfortunate events? If so, who does Putin wave his willy-shaped nukes at?

    Nordstream 2 was never turned on, was it?

    So the current "issues" with NS1 are simply them turning off the dregs of the capacity.

    (FWIW, Continental Europe owes a massive debt to the Norwegians, who have stopped reinjecting natural gas into their oil wells, so as to be able to export it.)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rupa Huq = Moron.

    I would be a lot less kind.

    She exhibited the worst kind of racism: an assumption that those with certain skin colour should behave in a certain way.
    Sure she has been stupidly racist but not sure how it can possibly be the worst form of racism. Slavery or lynching for example are certainly worse.....
    The one assumption underpins the other.
    Not really. Her racist assumption is all people from a group should think the same way. Slavery or lynching are based on other groups being either a threat and/or sub human. It would be a very long journey from her lazy stereotyping to get to a mindset of justifying lynching.
    Dead wrong, Emmett Till was murdered for behaving in a certain way inappropriate to his skin colour. Nobody thought he was a threat.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    I see according to some in Labour I'm superficially a brown man.

    Magnificent.

    "Culturally white" is the most recent one I've had said to/about me. From a self appointed "anti-racist" too. Wankers.
    Polite way of saying coconut isn't it?

    Wankers indeed.
    Indeed. Someone else at the table pointed this out and the "anti-racist" went off on one. Happily she's someone I only know in passing and see very rarely.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,841
    edited September 2022
    PeterM said:



    Finally, I think 'Great British Energy', in public ownership, is a big winner.

    Yes it will be

    I’m not keen. State competing with private simply won’t work well.
    It will be popular though. I'd rather we went all in and grabbed hold of 100% of our needs in energy and food. Fuck globalism, its over
    Globalism isn’t over. It’s only just begun.

    It’s also unbeatable.
    Populism will defeat globalism. Watch this space.
    Not If moderatism defeates populism first.
    This winter will do for moderatism. Also watch this space.
    i honestly think the only chance for the conservatives now as the economy is screwed is to go full on bnp lite to get the red wall votes...start talking about things like an immigration freeze..fight a full on culture wars battle
    Yes, if not there is scope for a red wall friendly populist movement to really grab the long term trend away from Labour there. But they need to get motivated and organised now

    Edit - although there is no need for any BNP reference or influence, populism does not need to sink into that sort of quagmire i missed the bnp reference when i first read it
This discussion has been closed.