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If young voters actually voted then be afraid – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 15 in General
If young voters actually voted then be afraid – politicalbetting.com

New: J.L. Partners poll of 8,004 UK adults for @ukonward % support for running the UK with "a strong leader who doesn't have to bother with parliament/elections"All: 46%18-34s: 61%35-54s: 49%Over-55s: 29%Tables: https://t.co/s2s4W7swkrReport: https://t.co/7LYxObZiNg

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,717
    2nd.
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 281
    edited September 11
    Second maybe…

    Edit: third like Charles…
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,717
    edited September 11
    Not Charles the Third.

    Edit. Not Charles the Fourth, either.
  • Second maybe…
    MattW said:

    Not Charles the Third.

    Does Cockney rhyming slang get updated to the latest regnal treble?
  • The Brexit referendum really divided young from old. With the 2019 election allowing Cummings and co to drive the wedge in.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,717
    edited September 11
    FPT:
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jeez, not this one again. Terrible poling question, based on political talking points with no context.

    The companies making money are Saudi Aramco and Qatargas - how does the UK government tax them?

    Taxes on UK domestic extraction are currently 69%, by how much should these rise?

    A question to which Starmer had no answer and just blustered in Parliament.
    Good morning

    Starmer was caught out by Mark Harper in the HOC and his reaction showed he did not understand the difference between global profits (170 billion) and UK profits of 40 billion currently taxed at 65%

    I expect the COE in his emergency budget will call out Starmer and others on this misconception
    There is a serious, really serious political problem for the Tories. Why you don't get this is puzzling. It may well be the case that the domestic energy companies aren't going to make intergalactic profits. Just vast ones. The public will not understand the nuanced differences, but they WILL understand the sneering arrogance of this government defending the profits of these companies over the taxpayer.

    Why can't you see this? Truss is wrong here on a galactic scale, and having backed the oil companies over individuals the political tax will be crippling.
    For me I am fully aware a windfall tax won't raise a significant proportion of the energy handouts the government is giving. The principle of everyone, including businesses, doing their bit in a crisis is an important one however, so even if it raises another £5bn out of £200bn I think it very much worthwhile.
    So without necessarily disagreeing with you, how much above 65% do you think the tax rate should be on energy companies?
    I don't work for HMRC so would leave it up to them to come up with some suggestions that could raise more. Off feel I would start by reducing the 91% investment rebate or perhaps change it to only apply to green investment with a much lower rate for fossil fuel investment.
    A number of companies (including the one I am currently drilling wells for) have already decided to abandon a whole series of UK development campaigns on the back of the Windfall tax in spite of the investment rebate. If you want to drive the rest out then all you do is accelerate the end of the North Sea and make yourself more reliant on imported O&G. Not exactly the best way to deal with an energy crisis.
    Excellent news. Anything that helps to keep it in the ground gets my vote. The underlying cause of the energy crisis has been insufficient urgency in the development of renewables, and anything that helps push progress on that front is a good thing. Hydrocarbons should be exploited only when necessary, not squandered as they have been on providing unsustainably cheap energy thus hindering the development of clean alternatives.
    Again., stupidly short sighted. Part of the reason for the current energy crisis is that we decided to cut back on oil and gas production long before we could ever have sufficient renewables to fill the gap and so have to rely on imports.

    Stanislaw Lem, the great Polish Sci-F writer once wrote a story about a king who wanted all his subjects to become amphibians and so, to make them develop gills he started to raise the water level in his country by an inch a year. He couldn't understand it when all his subjects drowned.

    Your policy is much the same. Wishing it would be any other way doesn't change reality.
    If you don't understand why renewables would have been developed more quickly if the price of fossil fuels had reflected their finite nature and the environmental damage they cause, then you don't know the first principles of economics.
    And if you don't understand how much the continued use of fossil fuels has subsidised the development of renewables and provided breathing space for their development then you don't understand the energy sector.

    You are like a priest telling an old lady out in the snow that suffering is good for the soul and no matter if they freeze to death at least they have more chance of getting into heaven.
    It's a question of degree. At it's most simple, we have two potential sources of energy: one ready available, but finite and damaging, the other requiring development, but clean and sustainable. In any sane world it makes sense to use the former as sparingly as possible (without anyone freezing) while doing our utmost to develop the latter. Instead, we have squandered the former on on luxuries like big cars and cheap aviation while only half-heartedly developing the latter. Now payback time is here, and it's those who have kept us addicted to fossil fuels who will be to blame for those freezing during this and subsequent winters.
    That is a completely different argument to the one you just made. I would not disagree with you about big cars and cheap flights. Indeed that is the point I am making. We should be dealing with this by dealing with demand not supply. This is why, if it actually can be sustained, the move to electric cars is god. It is why energy saving in all its forms is good. A lot of us have spent the last 30 or more years arguing that fossil fuels are too important to burn. We need them for too many other things. But you deal with that by reducing demand and providing alternatives, not by simply witching off the tap and expecting everything to be fine and rosy.

    It would be bloody marvellous if, in 20 years, we didn't have to burn any fossil fuels. But you won't get there any quicker by causing the sorts of energy crisis that we have now. And it has, in part, been caused by reducing our domestic production of fossil fuels whilst failing to reduce demand or provide enough alternatives.
    I don't see us getting down to zero fossil fuel in 20 years - given that that is not *that* much longer than the investment lifecycle for things such as offshore wind. But given historical trends over decades I'd say that net zero is quite likely by 2050, and of course as you say there are things for which we will continue to need fossil fuels.

    We'll need the LT Government to pick up a lot of the things than BoJo and David Cameron stopped doing. The 2 main areas needing work really progressing are transport and property, especially commercial and owner occupied housing.
    Net zero doesn't mean no fossil fuels used, it means net emissions of zero.
    I thought that was part of what I said. :smile:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    John Simpson
    @JohnSimpsonNews
    ·
    1h
    Unless Russia can improve its strategy, tactics & morale very quickly, it’s going to lose this unnecessary & brutal war on Ukraine. The Ukrainian assault in the area round Kharkiv has been fast & clever, & Russia has suffered a major sucker punch. The next week will be critical.

    They may lose in the North. But unless the southern front collapsed as well….

    To lose the war would need something like the Ukrainians reaching Mariupol - cutting off the Russian forces from Russia, except via Crimea. That would be the end.
    Hitting the Kerch bridge would leave them stranded in that case.
    The supply lines would be impossible, even if the bridge was intact. The Russian forces in Ukraine would be strangled, slowly.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 95
    That is a terrible statistic for young British people. I suppose it is a result of the damages of illiberal woke politics.
  • WillG said:

    That is a terrible statistic for young British people. I suppose it is a result of the damages of illiberal woke politics.

    Or a result of them being shafted economically for a decade by their parents and grandparents perhaps?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    OT - the young are always onboard for a strong leader to get the job done by throwing impediments away.

    The realisation that they might be the impediments thrown away comes later in life.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,847
    The young old divide being so stark politically is surprisingly recent, as we know, but it should be a worry to the Tories (and more broadly everyone to lesser degree) nonetheless because of findings like in the header - it isn't simply a 'normal' young people supporting a different party, they are actually becoming less supportive of the entire system, and that makes them less likely to transition their support as they age or defend institutions and protections (and we know the Tories do not care for institutions if they are a hindrance).
  • Young people will see the Tories out since you just like to shaft us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,730
    edited September 11
    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,536
    The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.
  • 83 - 2
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,177

    Young people will see the Tories out since you just like to shaft us.

    If it is oldies that vote the tories out don't hold your breath about things changing
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.

    In previous times, tons of young people supported Communism and Fascism. And before that, Napoleon had a lot of U.K. fans… Precisely because they were attracted to the short, straight road….
  • WillGWillG Posts: 95
    Sean_F said:

    I'm unconvinced that life is worse for young people than in the sixties, seventies, or eighties.

    If you don't vote, there's not much point complaining that things are not to your liking.

    The human brain has a tendency to feel like you are uniquely hard done by. It requires the socialization of other people not having much tolerance for your special whining to beat it out of you. Unfortunately, social media creates a constant socialization reaffirming people's victim status. Every generation from now on will be like this.
  • First?

    Header mangles the link to the full tables
    https://t.co/s2s4W7swkr
    https://www.jlpartners.co.uk/polling-results
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,326
    Cortège is running pretty late, not past Forfar yet. Crowds in Dundee are huge.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804
    I've thought for a few years now that young people tend to be far more authoritarian than everyone else. Smartphones and social media probably have a lot to do with it.
  • The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.

    In previous times, tons of young people supported Communism and Fascism. And before that, Napoleon had a lot of U.K. fans… Precisely because they were attracted to the short, straight road….
    Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive...

    Young people are impatient for revolution so they can live out the rest of their lives in a land of milk and honey. So it was in the 60s when I was a revolting youth. Nothing much has changed since (apart from everything else).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,961

    The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.

    In previous times, tons of young people supported Communism and Fascism. And before that, Napoleon had a lot of U.K. fans… Precisely because they were attracted to the short, straight road….
    Is there a man with soul so dead
    Who was not in his twenties
    Red?

    Or, of course
    The Future belongs to me!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,520
    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.

    In previous times, tons of young people supported Communism and Fascism. And before that, Napoleon had a lot of U.K. fans… Precisely because they were attracted to the short, straight road….
    Is there a man with soul so dead
    Who was not in his twenties
    Red?

    Or, of course
    The Future belongs to me!
    Indeed. ‘‘Twas ever thus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,044
    DavidL said:

    Cortège is running pretty late, not past Forfar yet. Crowds in Dundee are huge.

    I was watching the BBC helicopter footage - which only resumed after they passed Forfar. Cortège passing Fintry now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    The education system is really failing our young people if that many of them are tempted by alternatives to democracy.

    Perhaps we will hear less about the "wisdom" of youth today because clearly many of them are impulsive and get swept away with sentiments they don't understand without putting an awful lot of thinking into them.

    In previous times, tons of young people supported Communism and Fascism. And before that, Napoleon had a lot of U.K. fans… Precisely because they were attracted to the short, straight road….
    Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive...

    Young people are impatient for revolution so they can live out the rest of their lives in a land of milk and honey. So it was in the 60s when I was a revolting youth. Nothing much has changed since (apart from everything else).
    It is perfectly natural. If you support my unDictatorship, it will be a land of peace and plenty.

    There will be a wild five minutes*, first of course.

    *Five minutes not to be taken as literal. No guarantees provided. Buyers risk. All rights reserved. May contain nuts, May contain nutters. May contain trained Marxist nutters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,739
    edited September 11
    If only under 35s voted Corbyn would already be PM. Fortunately by 40 most of them own a property, at least with a mortgage and more become conservative and respectful of our traditions and democratic process.

    In due course most of them will inherit much of the property their parents had too in true Tory fashion
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,044
    Quite substantial crowds in Dundee - the “Yes City”.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,078
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    Older people were taught that there are different points of view and it's important to have a civilised debate between them.
    Older people read the Daily Mail.
  • Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,996
    edited September 11
    Youthful enthusiasm and exuberance is one way of looking at it. But young people also, very importantly, tend to be much more open to change, otherwise society would stagnate. And Britain needs both elements of continuity, or more accurately the revival of something it's largely lost in the last in the last few years, grace and moderation in its domestic and international conversation, and very substantial change.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 16,479
    edited September 11

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    The test could be wrapped up by teatime. The draw is out to 12/1 on Betfair.
  • Nigelb said:

    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency
    using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….

    They are done. You don't come back from this sort of defeat in so short a time.

    Separately, there are reports that the Ukrainian and Russian forces on the Kherson front are in negotiations - Russian troops allowed to leave for Crimea as long as they leave behind all equipment and weapons. Apparently, there's been no serious fighting there over the past 48 hours as the two commands speak.

    Why Crimea?

    Should be allowed to leave for Russia.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,122
    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,977

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    Moscow Derby in the KHL today. CSKA vs Lokomotiv. CSKA have been shit lately but hope never dies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,739
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    More the middle aged, the young support Melenchon, the old Macron and Les Republicains
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,447
    Dura_Ace said:

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    Moscow Derby in the KHL today. CSKA vs Lokomotiv. CSKA have been shit lately but hope never dies.
    That'll be Mick Train's team.
  • Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    Older people were taught that there are different points of view and it's important to have a civilised debate between them.
    Older people read the Daily Mail.
    No, they really don't.

    Even old people don't read papers. No paper has a circulation of tens of millions to suggest that an entire generation reads it.
  • Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    Older people were taught that there are different points of view and it's important to have a civilised debate between them.
    Older people read the Daily Mail.
    No, they really don't.

    Even old people don't read papers. No paper has a circulation of tens of millions to suggest that an entire generation reads it.
    Older people lap up Trumpite, vaccine skeptic, EUrophobic, anti woke, anti immigration bullshit on the internet then?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804
    Trump was surprisingly popular with voters in the 18 to 24 age bracket IIRC.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,373

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    The implication of what's being reported is that the area of land retaken by Ukraine in the current offensive has increased from 2000km^2 last night to 3000km^2 today.

    Who knows? But the impression is not one of stability.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,447
    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.
  • Youthful enthusiasm and exuberance is one way of looking at it. But young people also, very importantly, tend to be much more open to change, otherwise society would stagnate. And Britain needs both elements of continuity, or more accurately the revival of something it's largely lost in the last in the last few years, grace and moderation in its domestic and international conversation, and very substantial change.

    This is true. I am an old hippy, not an old contemptible. Old people also change from one generation to the next.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 7,023

    In May, Rishi Sunak announced a "temporary, targeted energy-profits levy". The good people at Bloomberg tweeted a video clip of the then-Chancellor's announcement.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1529788086976233474

    Indeed - it is already being used within the 37 billion package and let us not forget Starmer would cancel the £400 grant to be paid over 6 months from October

    The Labour plan was a very simple one - no-one will pay more than they are paying now. And that will be funded by a windfall tax. This is all voters are going to hear. That's the politics of it.

    It is until it is called out as a lie

    What is that about lying in politics?

    It will be called out as a lie by the government, of course it will be. But that is not the same as it either being a lie or being accepted as a lie.

    If you are relying on detailed dissections of Labour policy instead of government policy, I think you are going to be disappointed.

    It is clearly misleading and in truth Truss will implement her policy and as inflation falls over the coming months and the effects of lower taxes are felt then I expect the conservatives may recover some of their polling but we are 2 years away from a GE with all kind of events intervening it is anyones guess who leads the country then
    “Misleading in truth.” 😆

    Let’s explore what is misleading then shall we.

    I thought it was just plain misleading for some media, like the telegraph, to tell us what inflation will now top off at with the governments freeze reducing it - they can’t actually know. The way it works is, if energy bills stop going up, even if they remain astronomical the less growth in energy bills, the less they can help grow inflation. However it’s just speculation what inflation will top at in UK before you then do the 4-5% reduction. It’s easy to believe a scenario where a weak government can lose control over wage growth in the same coming period.

    In exactly the same way Truss government did not take an overall cost of their energy policy into parliament last week, because they literally can’t know what it is - the actual cost depends what happens to energy markets - hence they are struggling to cost it up and share the figure with us, also present an exit plan with it.

    I thought the institute of directors were spot on it their response last Thursday, “What we need now is an external reassurance that the scale of the intervention does not jeopardise the public finances. That’s why it’s crucially important that the Office for Budget Responsibility can swiftly produce its independent assessment of the impact on government debt and the wider macroeconomy.”

    In exactly the same way Truss government are trying to avoid detailed scrutiny, IoD are expecting OBR scrutiny of the plan to flag up the need for future tax rises in order to protect weak public finances. This is where I see the penny has not dropped with a lot of you PBers still backing the governments needlessly expensive freeze plan - Truss may have gone into the commons last week saying the Lady’s not for Taxing, but her policies for weak public finances REEK and SCREAM future taxes (especially if spurning the available windfall tax, which Lady Thatcher would not have spurned).

    It’s clear as day to me who is trying to pull the wool over the eyes 🙂

    (Not that I mean Mourdant to die, before it’s misconstrued and I get another ban).
  • rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    Authoritarianism is what you go for when you don't get what you want by other means.

    That's a bad, foolish approach to take, but it ought to give those in charge pause for thought.

    First, why are the young so uninvested in society as it is? The answers to that, as expressed in that recent Telegraph headline "It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining" make that pretty obvious. There are many delightful Baby Boomers, but also many selfish cocks who have pulled the ladder up behind them.

    Second, what's happened to democracy? I blame a disagreement about the meaning of "Loser's Consent". It can either be the duty of the losers to accept the result until next time. Or it can be the duty of the winners to earn the consent of the other side. In reality, they have to coexist. In recent years, we've had a bit too much of the first and not enough of the second.

    Smart Tories have always believed in reform to prevent revolution. Are there any Smart Tories left?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Trump was surprisingly popular with voters in the 18 to 24 age bracket IIRC.

    You appear to recall incorrectly.

    'But one of the biggest divides that did come to pass was between older voters and those aged under 30, who became even “less enamoured of President Trump than before”.

    “The other age groups, 30-44, 45-64, 65 and over, it’s a pretty close divide between Biden and Trump. So it’s really young people who are overwhelmingly anti-Trump and that’s really noticeable.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/3623pxa2
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,242
    HYUFD said:

    If only under 35s voted Corbyn would already be PM. Fortunately by 40 most of them own a property, at least with a mortgage and more become conservative and respectful of our traditions and democratic process.

    In due course most of them will inherit much of the property their parents had too in true Tory fashion

    In due course being the key, pace Prince now King Charles….
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,242
    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    I’m in NY State and haven’t heard much as yet. Mind you I am only just done with breakfast.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,242

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    Authoritarianism is what you go for when you don't get what you want by other means.

    That's a bad, foolish approach to take, but it ought to give those in charge pause for thought.

    First, why are the young so uninvested in society as it is? The answers to that, as expressed in that recent Telegraph headline "It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining" make that pretty obvious. There are many delightful Baby Boomers, but also many selfish cocks who have pulled the ladder up behind them.

    Second, what's happened to democracy? I blame a disagreement about the meaning of "Loser's Consent". It can either be the duty of the losers to accept the result until next time. Or it can be the duty of the winners to earn the consent of the other side. In reality, they have to coexist. In recent years, we've had a bit too much of the first and not enough of the second.

    Smart Tories have always believed in reform to prevent revolution. Are there any Smart Tories left?
    The Apps on them clearly need updating….
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 15,259
    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,847
    edited September 11

    Nigelb said:

    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency
    using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….

    They are done. You don't come back from this sort of defeat in so short a time.

    Separately, there are reports that the Ukrainian and Russian forces on the Kherson front are in negotiations - Russian troops allowed to leave for Crimea as long as they leave behind all equipment and weapons. Apparently, there's been no serious fighting there over the past 48 hours as the two commands speak.

    Why Crimea?

    Should be allowed to leave for Russia.
    One thing at a time I guess.

    I suppose if you let them go to Crimea and then something happens to the bridge, they are then trapped there?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    The Russian batting order has collapsed - the tail enders are trying to save something for this innings.

    The whole test series is looking a bit of a mess for the Ruskies.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 15,259
    edited September 11
    Big G has pursued the most extraordinary campaign against Labour’s energy policy over the past week or so.

    It reminds me of his self-appointed role as head of the inquisition over Keir’s curry.

    The windfall tax is largely optical, but Truss is on the wrong side of political opinion.

    It’s not helped by the fact she loudly and repeatedly proclaimed no hand-outs during the interminable leadership campaign, then delivered the mother of all hand-outs as her very first act.

    In other words, she lied.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 15,259
    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency
    using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….

    They are done. You don't come back from this sort of defeat in so short a time.

    Separately, there are reports that the Ukrainian and Russian forces on the Kherson front are in negotiations - Russian troops allowed to leave for Crimea as long as they leave behind all equipment and weapons. Apparently, there's been no serious fighting there over the past 48 hours as the two commands speak.

    Why Crimea?

    Should be allowed to leave for Russia.
    One thing at a time I guess.

    I suppose if you let them go to Crimea and then something happens to the bridge, they are then trapped there?
    A bunch of defeated soldiers without weapons won’t be very much use in Crimea. In fact that would probably just be a drag on the logistics system.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,829

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    She's paying for Charles's welcome tour so why shouldn't she? Why is her welcome tour misjudged?
  • kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency
    using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….


    They are done. You don't come back
    from this sort of defeat in so short a time.

    Separately, there are reports that the Ukrainian and Russian forces on the Kherson front are in negotiations - Russian troops allowed to leave for Crimea as long as they leave behind all equipment and weapons. Apparently, there's been no serious fighting there over the past 48 hours as the two commands speak.


    Why Crimea?

    Should be allowed to leave for Russia.
    One thing at a time I guess.

    I suppose if you let them go to Crimea and then something happens to the bridge, they are then trapped there?
    A bunch of defeated soldiers without weapons won’t be very much use in Crimea. In fact that would probably just be a drag on the logistics system.
    Crimea is now completely pointless for Russia as a military base - the Ukrainian attacks on the airfields have shown any military assets of worth would be well within the range of the missles Ukraine has, hence the retreat of the Black Sea fleet to safer waters. Any sizeable military force would also be effectively trapped by both the narrow land bridge in the north and the ease at which the Kerch bridge would be targeted. It would be one big prison camp.


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,804

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
    It's interesting how no-one ever talks about the fact that 9/11 couldn't have happened if the US had had the same security procedures for domestic flights that the UK had at the time. It's as if you can talk about everything to do with 9/11 except the most important aspect of it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,977

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
  • Big G has pursued the most extraordinary campaign against Labour’s energy policy over the past week or so.

    It reminds me of his self-appointed role as head of the inquisition over Keir’s curry.

    The windfall tax is largely optical, but Truss is on the wrong side of political opinion.

    It’s not helped by the fact she loudly and repeatedly proclaimed no hand-outs during the interminable leadership campaign, then delivered the mother of all hand-outs as her very first act.

    In other words, she lied.

    I suspect she's trying to do what she thinks worked for Boris and is now the politically fashionable approach within Toryism: shamelessness is a sign of strength, consistency is for woosies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,122
    Andy_JS said:

    Trump was surprisingly popular with voters in the 18 to 24 age bracket IIRC.

    Yep:

    The reality is that society is not homogenous. There are old supporters of extinction rebellion. There are young fascists, libdems and libertarians.

    Basically, it's complicated, and one should be wary of drawing sweeping conclusions.
  • Big G has pursued the most extraordinary campaign against Labour’s energy policy over the past week or so.

    It reminds me of his self-appointed role as head of the inquisition over Keir’s curry.

    The windfall tax is largely optical, but Truss is on the wrong side of political opinion.

    It’s not helped by the fact she loudly and repeatedly proclaimed no hand-outs during the interminable leadership campaign, then delivered the mother of all hand-outs as her very first act.

    In other words, she lied.

    I suspect she's trying to do what she thinks worked for Boris and is now the politically fashionable approach within Toryism: shamelessness is a sign of strength, consistency is for woosies.
    Big G proudly jumps on abuse and bullying people if they oppose his chosen politics.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    While it’s way premature to say the war is won, at the very least the last 48 hours leaves Russia with a massive tactical headache.
    And this is a preliminary count. From 14 hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1568726055120420865
    Fuck it let's do this. In conjunction with yesterday's numbers, Russia is visually confirmed to have lost to capture or destruction (mostly) capture between Kherson/Kharkiv: (in rough equivalency) 27.5 companies or 6.8 battalions or 3.4 *brigades* (of 3 battalions). The breakdown…
    is (vics or cannons):
    Tanks: 40 (4 full strength co's)
    APCs: 35
    Command/Comms: 11
    Engineering: 4
    Air Def: 9
    IFV: 50
    TIGR/MRAP type: 5
    Logi/Transpo: 47
    (plus an Su-25 & Su-34)

    As I've noted before, this is raw combat/direct combat support power, not the full complement of fuel…
    trucks, supply trucks, vans, staff cars etc etc. This is a rough equivalency
    using varied equipment types according to how many a T/O plt, co, bn, or brigade would have at full strength. By way of comparison, this would be like if the US 10th Mountain Division lost EVERY vehicle…
    or cannon it owned, and then an adjacent brigade lost half it's strength.


    There is no way to spin this as anything other than a MASSIVE, unseen since WWII (in such a short time), loss of Russian equipment that definitely outpaces Russia's capacity to reconstitute….


    They are done. You don't come back
    from this sort of defeat in so short a time.

    Separately, there are reports that the Ukrainian and Russian forces on the Kherson front are in negotiations - Russian troops allowed to leave for Crimea as long as they leave behind all equipment and weapons. Apparently, there's been no serious fighting there over the past 48 hours as the two commands speak.


    Why Crimea?

    Should be allowed to leave for Russia.
    One thing at a time I guess.

    I suppose if you let them go to Crimea and then something happens to the bridge, they are then trapped there?
    A bunch of defeated soldiers without weapons won’t be very much use in Crimea. In fact that would probably just be a drag on the logistics system.
    Crimea is now completely pointless for Russia as a military base - the Ukrainian attacks on the airfields have shown any military assets of worth would be well within the range of the missles Ukraine has, hence the retreat of the Black Sea fleet to safer waters. Any sizeable military force would also be effectively trapped by both the narrow land bridge in the north and the ease at which the Kerch bridge would be targeted. It would be one big prison camp.


    The fundamental shiitiness of the strategic situation in Crimea pre-invasion was a driver for the invasion.

    Without the hinterland, and a hinterland connecting to Russia overland, Crimea pretty much exists at the whim of Ukraine.

    A Ukraine which will be, now, for the rest of our lives (at minimum), heavily armed and very anti-Russian state.
  • Cross? Aleksandr is absolutely raging.







  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,177

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    She's paying for Charles's welcome tour so why shouldn't she? Why is her welcome tour misjudged?
    Thank God for that, I thought the taxpayer might be on the hook.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,520
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    Older people were taught that there are different points of view and it's important to have a civilised debate between them. Young people are taught that there's only one correct opinion on every subject.

    Therefore — authoritarianism.
    I don't find that particularly convincing.

    One thing that's interesting to me is the question elides 'strong leaders' with not bothering with parliament/elections. This US study separated these things and found that younger people aren't as keen on strong leaders, but are more sceptical about democracy.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/03/13/is-public-sentiment-shifting-toward-support-of-authoritarianism-not-really/

    "On the one hand, only nine percent of adults ages 23 to 29 favor strong leaders, a much smaller share than for any other age cohort. On the other hand, 29 percent of these young Americans say that democracy is not always preferable to other political forms, a far higher share than older Americans, who can remember the Cold War and even the fight against fascism in World War II."

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347

    Big G has pursued the most extraordinary campaign against Labour’s energy policy over the past week or so.

    It reminds me of his self-appointed role as head of the inquisition over Keir’s curry.

    The windfall tax is largely optical, but Truss is on the wrong side of political opinion.

    It’s not helped by the fact she loudly and repeatedly proclaimed no hand-outs during the interminable leadership campaign, then delivered the mother of all hand-outs as her very first act.

    In other words, she lied.

    Same as Starmer trying to get to be leader of Labour, then. Realistically she (and Sunak) were buggered by the length of the process. If it had been two weeks then it could have been done and dusted, and so this bollocks wouldn’t come up. It was blatantly obvious that whoever won would have to do something along the lines being taken. Setting out your stall to your party about your politics is a different question.
  • Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    The kindest take I can come up with is that an overexcited official spokesman sought to brief that Truss's agreed role in the royal tour more important than it was. Doesn't quite match the facts on the ground, but just about fits.

    Even that's not a very good look. First role of a constitutional monarchy is don't make HM look silly.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,829

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    Authoritarianism is what you go for when you don't get what you want by other means.

    That's a bad, foolish approach to take, but it ought to give those in charge pause for thought.

    First, why are the young so uninvested in society as it is? The answers to that, as expressed in that recent Telegraph headline "It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining" make that pretty obvious. There are many delightful Baby Boomers, but also many selfish cocks who have pulled the ladder up behind them.

    Second, what's happened to democracy? I blame a disagreement about the meaning of "Loser's Consent". It can either be the duty of the losers to accept the result until next time. Or it can be the duty of the winners to earn the consent of the other side. In reality, they have to coexist. In recent years, we've had a bit too much of the first and not enough of the second.

    Smart Tories have always believed in reform to prevent revolution. Are there any Smart Tories left?
    With regard to your "first" statement. Authoritarianism is slapping down minnions who place your ink pot in slightly the wrong position. HMQ would not have ruffled her brow.

    Off topic

    I am pleased to read of Andrew's new role as that of Corgi wrangler.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,122
    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
    It's interesting how no-one ever talks about the fact that 9/11 couldn't have happened if the US had had the same security procedures for domestic flights that the UK had at the time. It's as if you can talk about everything to do with 9/11 except the most important aspect of it.
    Is that true?

    I traveled extensively in the US before 9/11, and you always had to step through X-ray machines.

    The reality is that airport security doesn't catch everything. Indeed, the numbers are really quite scary about the percentage of weapons that are not spotted.

    And if the weapons you carry onboard are such that a normal person could have accidentally left in their luggage (i.e. a kitchen knife), then all you will ever get from airport security is ticking off.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,177
    Just seen the 5 spoke alloys on that hearse. Is this really the best we can manage?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,520
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    Yes - that I think I can explain because she is obviously a 'change' candidate. The young also support Melanchon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,847
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just seen the 5 spoke alloys on that hearse.

    Oh no?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 15,259
    edited September 11
    I watched the NZ Accession ceremony earlier and was suddenly struck by the fact that it is essentially unprecedented.

    The last accession in 1952 took place when NZ was barely independent and fully identified as part of a family of *British* nations, with the UK (and the Queen) at its head of the family.

    NZ just isn’t that country anymore and the risk for monarchists is that they look irrelevant and at worst imperialist if they pretend otherwise.

    If the monarchy wants NZ to avoid becoming a republic, it needs to find a way to renew its relevance. It can’t be a just a bunch of eccentric British aristocrats.

    It would need to become - as some have hinted above - a conscious guarantor of NZ’s democracy and constitution - embodied in the Treaty of Waitangi, the founding “partnership” between Crown and Māori.

    Charles needs to start practicing his Māori.

    I presume similar dynamics are at play in Canada and even Australia.
  • I remember how assured one user here was that Starmer was in fact guilty of the curry incident, oddly we've not heard from him about it recently
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,829
    IshmaelZ said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    She's paying for Charles's welcome tour so why shouldn't she? Why is her welcome tour misjudged?
    Thank God for that, I thought the taxpayer might be on the hook.
    We have gifted her our taxes as we did Boris Johnson, to spend wisely on our behalf.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,373
    edited September 11
    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
    My contact with the septuagenarian world has told me recently: (1) Boris is great (2) Boris should quit (3) Boris shouldn't have quit (3) Liz Truss is great and (4) King Charles is great.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
    It's interesting how no-one ever talks about the fact that 9/11 couldn't have happened if the US had had the same security procedures for domestic flights that the UK had at the time. It's as if you can talk about everything to do with 9/11 except the most important aspect of it.
    Is that true?

    I traveled extensively in the US before 9/11, and you always had to step through X-ray machines.

    The reality is that airport security doesn't catch everything. Indeed, the numbers are really quite scary about the percentage of weapons that are not spotted.

    And if the weapons you carry onboard are such that a normal person could have accidentally left in their luggage (i.e. a kitchen knife), then all you will ever get from airport security is ticking off.
    I recall an trip back from NZ to the U.K. with an internal LA to SF flight. I distinctly remember at one point finding myself out side by the taxis and then into the terminal again and onto the flight without checks. Felt very weird.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
    It's interesting how no-one ever talks about the fact that 9/11 couldn't have happened if the US had had the same security procedures for domestic flights that the UK had at the time. It's as if you can talk about everything to do with 9/11 except the most important aspect of it.
    Is that true?

    I traveled extensively in the US before 9/11, and you always had to step through X-ray machines.

    The reality is that airport security doesn't catch everything. Indeed, the numbers are really quite scary about the percentage of weapons that are not spotted.

    And if the weapons you carry onboard are such that a normal person could have accidentally left in their luggage (i.e. a kitchen knife), then all you will ever get from airport security is ticking off.
    The sensitivity of metal detectors was often turned down to avoid false positives. To the point of being useless.

    IIRC one security consultant demonstrated this by getting a gun through the metal detectors at the Capitol Hill building and into a Congressional Committee hearing.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,373
    Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
    My contact with the septuagenarian world has told me recently: (1) Boris is great (2) Boris should quit (3) Boris shouldn't have quit (3) Liz Truss is great and (4) King Charles is great.
    PS Liz Truss is great because she reminds her of Thatcher.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Just seen the 5 spoke alloys on that hearse. Is this really the best we can manage?

    A lovely sombre carbon fibre at £5k per wheel would be the respectful way to go. Nice nod to the old German heritage as well.


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,334

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Quite surprised by that poll finding - I thought it was older & more conservative people who were keener on authoritarianism.

    In France, it is the young who support Ms Le Pen
    Authoritarianism is what you go for when you don't get what you want by other means.

    That's a bad, foolish approach to take, but it ought to give those in charge pause for thought.

    First, why are the young so uninvested in society as it is? The answers to that, as expressed in that recent Telegraph headline "It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining" make that pretty obvious. There are many delightful Baby Boomers, but also many selfish cocks who have pulled the ladder up behind them.

    Second, what's happened to democracy? I blame a disagreement about the meaning of "Loser's Consent". It can either be the duty of the losers to accept the result until next time. Or it can be the duty of the winners to earn the consent of the other side. In reality, they have to coexist. In recent years, we've had a bit too much of the first and not enough of the second.

    Smart Tories have always believed in reform to prevent revolution. Are there any Smart Tories left?
    With regard to your "first" statement. Authoritarianism is slapping down minnions who place your ink pot in slightly the wrong position. HMQ would not have ruffled her brow.

    Off topic

    I am pleased to read of Andrew's new role as that of Corgi wrangler.
    Better than his previous wrangling...

    I simply don't believe this poll. Neither the figures for old or young are credible in terms of support for a strong leader without elections. This isn't Russia.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,847
    Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
    My contact with the septuagenarian world has told me recently: (1) Boris is great (2) Boris should quit (3) Boris shouldn't have quit (3) Liz Truss is great and (4) King Charles is great.
    The poor contact seems to be struggling to count too :)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347

    I remember how assured one user here was that Starmer was in fact guilty of the curry incident, oddly we've not heard from him about it recently

    I’m pretty sure that the ‘curry’ incident bent the rules a bit, but the police were never going to end Starmer career over it. In hindsight he played a blinder with his ‘I’ll resign’ statement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just seen the 5 spoke alloys on that hearse. Is this really the best we can manage?

    No spinners?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 78,847
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
    My contact with the septuagenarian world has told me recently: (1) Boris is great (2) Boris should quit (3) Boris shouldn't have quit (3) Liz Truss is great and (4) King Charles is great.
    PS Liz Truss is great because she reminds her of Thatcher.
    That's a given, doesn't need mentioning really.
  • I remember how assured one user here was that Starmer was in fact guilty of the curry incident, oddly we've not heard from him about it recently

    I’m pretty sure that the ‘curry’ incident bent the rules a bit, but the police were never going to end Starmer career over it. In hindsight he played a blinder with his ‘I’ll resign’ statement.
    I said so at the time and I reported from inside Starmer's team from my source. You should all just follow my posts! :D
  • PhilPhil Posts: 976

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    Russian MOD conflict maps suggest they are pulling out of the Kharkiv oblast entirely. They’ve left so much kit behind that the Ukranians don’t know what to do with it all.

    Ukraine is going to have the pause, consolidate & regroup for now I suspect, otherwise they’ll be completely overextended & vulnerable to a counter-attack. Some of their troops have probably been going for 72 hours straight.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,364

    re the topic, here's a thought. The single biggest driver of this is the push towards higher education amongst the young and its ripple effect.

    We've sold young people a lie, namely that if you get a degree, it's the route to riches. That was always going to be impossible given the natural small number of high paying jobs out there. All we have done is created a sullen class of individuals who are in debt, feel they have been cheated and, worse, because they view themselves as superior in knowledge, believe their views are right and that they must be accommodated to.

    In addition, those who didn't go to university are made to feel worthless, shut out of many careers even those such as nursing which they could have done before.

    Contrast that with a few decades back. If you left school at 16, you weren't automatically thought a failure. In fact, it was seen as the default in many cases. You found yourself a job and trade, and you made your own life (in many cases).

    Reverse this stupid obsession with pushing people to Higher Education.

    Agree with pretty much all of this.
    My daughters will be 18 in a few years. It's very hard to view them going to university with any enthusiasm.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,334

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    dixiedean said:

    Just realised it's the 21st anniversary of the September 11th attacks.
    Almost nothing made of it. Not even in New York Times.

    There were some fireworks last night, which could be heard in Manhattan but apparently we’re part of an Italian festival across the Hudson in New Jersey.

    Some gripes on Twitter about it being inappropriate on the eve of September 11.
    It's interesting how no-one ever talks about the fact that 9/11 couldn't have happened if the US had had the same security procedures for domestic flights that the UK had at the time. It's as if you can talk about everything to do with 9/11 except the most important aspect of it.
    Is that true?

    I traveled extensively in the US before 9/11, and you always had to step through X-ray machines.

    The reality is that airport security doesn't catch everything. Indeed, the numbers are really quite scary about the percentage of weapons that are not spotted.

    And if the weapons you carry onboard are such that a normal person could have accidentally left in their luggage (i.e. a kitchen knife), then all you will ever get from airport security is ticking off.
    I recall an trip back from NZ to the U.K. with an internal LA to SF flight. I distinctly remember at one point finding myself out side by the taxis and then into the terminal again and onto the flight without checks. Felt very weird.
    My favourite story on flight security was from an internal flight in NZ from a lumber town. Someone felt a drip from the overhead baggage compartment, so stood up and opened it to find a chainsaw. He reported it to the crew, who shrugged as it wasn't on the banned list.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,739
    edited September 11

    I watched the NZ Accession ceremony earlier and was suddenly struck by the fact that it is essentially unprecedented.

    The last accession in 1952 took place when NZ was barely independent and fully identified as part of a family of *British* nations, with the UK (and the Queen) at its head of the family.

    NZ just isn’t that country anymore and the risk for monarchists is that they look irrelevant and at worst imperialist if they pretend otherwise.

    If the monarchy wants NZ to avoid becoming a republic, it needs to find a way to renew its relevance. It can’t be a just a bunch of eccentric British aristocrats.

    It would need to become - as some have hinted above - a conscious guarantor of NZ’s democracy and constitution - embodied in the Treaty of Waitangi, the founding “partnership” between Crown and Māori.

    Charles needs to start practicing his Māori.

    I presume similar dynamics are at play in Canada and even Australia.

    Most New Zealanders want to keep the monarchy and the Governor General is Maori. In Canada the Governor General is now Inuk and both PM Trudeau and Leader of the Opposition Poilievre wish to keep the monarchy

    http://www.republic.org.nz/latestblog/2021/11/17/opinion-poll-44-republic-50-monarchy-after-the-queen
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,829
    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss’s intention to tour the nations was spectacularly ill-judged.

    Even my San Francisco-resident Ghanaian friend (ex-London) messaged me to tell me it was a disgrace.

    I have a new insight into the minds of tory voters now that we have a semi permanent octogenarian house guest. She voted Remain but loves Johnson but doesn't like Truss because "she has doughy little face".

    No wonder the tory party have driven themselves congenitally insane trying to work out what the fuck old people want and then trying to give it to them.
    My contact with the septuagenarian world has told me recently: (1) Boris is great (2) Boris should quit (3) Boris shouldn't have quit (3) Liz Truss is great and (4) King Charles is great.
    PS Liz Truss is great because she reminds her of Thatcher.
    That's a given, doesn't need mentioning really.
    I've not long turned sixty and it isn't working yet. Maybe it takes time and one doesn't become a rabid Conservative over night. I'll let you know when it happens.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    Phil said:

    Is there any news for today? Is Russia still collapsing or has the liberation movement stabilised a bit for now?

    Russian MOD conflict maps suggest they are pulling out of the Kharkiv oblast entirely. They’ve left so much kit behind that the Ukranians don’t know what to do with it all.

    Ukraine is going to have the pause, consolidate & regroup for now I suspect, otherwise they’ll be completely overextended & vulnerable to a counter-attack. Some of their troops have probably been going for 72 hours straight.
    The next question is - Do the Ukrainians have an army in reserve to exploit the breach? Some reports are suggesting that they do have a reserve…
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,486
    David Patrikarakos
    @dpatrikarakos
    ·
    1h
    There is chatter on #Ukraine 🇺🇦 channels that I stress is unconfirmed: 1. #Russia 🇷🇺 units in Kherson began negotiations to surrender. 2. Fighting has broken out RU & Kadyrov units in the area.

    As job of Chechens is largely to terrorise RU into fighting on these could be linked.

    https://twitter.com/dpatrikarakos
This discussion has been closed.