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Whilst CON MPs don’t decide who leads they can sack the winner – politicalbetting.com

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited August 2022
    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    If Biden runs for POTUS, Harris will be his VP running mate. It's one of those things that always happens - the last time it didn't was Rockefeller -> Dole when Ford sought re-election. You need to go back to FDR before that (Who was running for 3rd and 4th terms)
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    Yes, that'll be why Biden (Dem) is President.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577
    edited August 2022
    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    Is it ?

    Here's a (partial) list of VP nominee possibles already on the Betfair market:
    Eric Garcetti; Gavin Newsom; Cory Booker; Michelle Obama; Michael Bloomberg; John Ossoff; Bernie Sanders; Andrew Yang; Katie Porter; Hillary Clinton; Gretchen Whitmer; Tulsi Gabbard; Ayanna Pressley; Jamaal Bowman; Nina Turner; Beto O Rourke; Andrew Cuomo; Bill Gates; Rashida Tlaib; Tammy Duckworth; Susan Rice; Eric Adams; Stacey Abrams...


    It's not as though I'm asking you to bet on the guy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited August 2022
    Are we seeing Boris breaking with the new regime today?
    He's said 2 things. About Macron, and more importantly that more cash "obviously" will be forthcoming.
    Neither particularly helpful to his successor.

    Edit. The exact words were "plainly" and "clearly".
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Dunno why, but I've really got a thing against old people now. I might start a political party (before I get too old) to attack them

    Perhaps it is because you are now recognising your own senescence and senility, and reacting against the dying of the light?
    Yes, maybe
    But it was always live fast, die young Leon, who wants to slowly decompose in a smelly nursing home? Read Amiss Ending Up and then head on that US road trip, with as much mescaline, meth, uppers, downers skoolboy, China girl (Ishmael zee would approve) toot, molly, bliss, joker - pack up your kibbles and bit - the Joshua Tree is calling you 🤘
    Naah, opiates suck. They also lose their glamour to an amazing extent when you get to the age where the NHS dishes them out to you like sweeties. So I just have a prudent stash of a lethal quantity of BP grade morphine, on a Be prepared kinda basis.
    A friend of mine tried heroin for the first time in 30 years, only the other day

    Told me it was "disappointing". He used to do a ton of smack (like me), so that was a little dismaying. Smack was my back up plan for late old age. I will just have to get the best shit possible
    I’m taking notes from you both 😇 Sensible to prepare my retirement plan early as possible. Though they will probably introduce Carousel by the time I get there.

    Making good progress towards London, I’ll be home eeeeeeearly 🥳 then my postings will stop, but don’t panic, I don’t think I’ll be banned. I haven’t posted any naughty pictures during my third coming!
    If you are treating Fear and Loathing in LV as a core text pay careful attention to what HST said about it the following year:

    Yes … and … uh, where were we? I have a bad tendency to rush off on mad tangents and pursue them for fifty or sixty pages that get so out of control that I end up burning them, for my own good. One of the few exceptions to this rule occurred very recently, when I slipped up and let about two hundred pages go into print … which caused me a lot of trouble with the tax man, among others, and it taught me a lesson I hope I’ll never forget. Live steady. Don’t fuck around. Give anything weird a wide berth – including people. It’s not worth it. I learned this the hard way, through brutal overindulgence.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus. Is this Biden Diary story real?

    Trump will have fun with that one on the campaign trail, along with the Hunter stuff.
    American politics is just so sordid and creepy. Sad
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Dunno why, but I've really got a thing against old people now. I might start a political party (before I get too old) to attack them

    Perhaps it is because you are now recognising your own senescence and senility, and reacting against the dying of the light?
    Yes, maybe
    But it was always live fast, die young Leon, who wants to slowly decompose in a smelly nursing home? Read Amiss Ending Up and then head on that US road trip, with as much mescaline, meth, uppers, downers skoolboy, China girl (Ishmael zee would approve) toot, molly, bliss, joker - pack up your kibbles and bit - the Joshua Tree is calling you 🤘
    Naah, opiates suck. They also lose their glamour to an amazing extent when you get to the age where the NHS dishes them out to you like sweeties. So I just have a prudent stash of a lethal quantity of BP grade morphine, on a Be prepared kinda basis.
    A friend of mine tried heroin for the first time in 30 years, only the other day

    Told me it was "disappointing". He used to do a ton of smack (like me), so that was a little dismaying. Smack was my back up plan for late old age. I will just have to get the best shit possible
    I’m taking notes from you both 😇 Sensible to prepare my retirement plan early as possible. Though they will probably introduce Carousel by the time I get there.

    Making good progress towards London, I’ll be home eeeeeeearly 🥳 then my postings will stop, but don’t panic, I don’t think I’ll be banned. I haven’t posted any naughty pictures during my third coming!
    If you are treating Fear and Loathing in LV as a core text pay careful attention to what HST said about it the following year:

    Yes … and … uh, where were we? I have a bad tendency to rush off on mad tangents and pursue them for fifty or sixty pages that get so out of control that I end up burning them, for my own good. One of the few exceptions to this rule occurred very recently, when I slipped up and let about two hundred pages go into print … which caused me a lot of trouble with the tax man, among others, and it taught me a lesson I hope I’ll never forget. Live steady. Don’t fuck around. Give anything weird a wide berth – including people. It’s not worth it. I learned this the hard way, through brutal overindulgence.
    Is that you or HST talking 😆
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Only because he cannot get over the loss of Johnson
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    Nobody needs Johnson - he is over and not coming back despite your hero worship
    Looks as if he is going to be correcting Truss's homework and she is going to have to live with it
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Dunno why, but I've really got a thing against old people now. I might start a political party (before I get too old) to attack them

    Perhaps it is because you are now recognising your own senescence and senility, and reacting against the dying of the light?
    Yes, maybe
    But it was always live fast, die young Leon, who wants to slowly decompose in a smelly nursing home? Read Amiss Ending Up and then head on that US road trip, with as much mescaline, meth, uppers, downers skoolboy, China girl (Ishmael zee would approve) toot, molly, bliss, joker - pack up your kibbles and bit - the Joshua Tree is calling you 🤘
    Naah, opiates suck. They also lose their glamour to an amazing extent when you get to the age where the NHS dishes them out to you like sweeties. So I just have a prudent stash of a lethal quantity of BP grade morphine, on a Be prepared kinda basis.
    A friend of mine tried heroin for the first time in 30 years, only the other day

    Told me it was "disappointing". He used to do a ton of smack (like me), so that was a little dismaying. Smack was my back up plan for late old age. I will just have to get the best shit possible
    Tell your friend to be careful - a heck of a lot of heroin these days is cut with fentanyl and it is very, very easy to accidentally OD.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Whilst Thatcherism was ostensibly about personal freedom, its primary legacy was greater freedom for corporates / businesses rather than for the individual. Reagan and Thatcher both pushed the boundaries of freedom in favour of businesses more than they ever did for individuals during their tenure. Yes, they put through tax cuts and encouraged mass individual shareholders but the latter never lasted, unlike the view that companies should pay lower taxes and be subject to fewer regulations.

    Thatcher's fallacy was that she saw the world in black and white rather than shades of grey. That was the source ironically of both her triumphs and failures.

    MrEd said:

    Truss' problem is not that she's barking mad (although she has a bit of the messianic about her), it's that she's pushing a creed - neo-Thatcherism - that is turning completely out of fashion.

    We are now at the end of the 40 year+ Reagan / Thatcher consensus on how the world should be run. Covid put the final nail in the coffin, with its massive support of individuals and businesses ruining the idea Governments shouldn't intervene while businesses have done a great job at convincing people that the idea they can be trusted to be self-regulating is a complete fallacy. To quote an example, the fact that Dido Harding survived for years as a CEO with such compensation is a sign of how much the system is broken.

    We are now likely to see a return to some form of the post-1945 social democracy consensus in some form or another. Whoever gets that formula right will have electoral alchemy.

    Covid didn't put the final nail in the coffin anymore than the previous war did. Extreme events change the narrative for the duration of the event and perhaps a while afterwards. They don't change the rightness or wrongness of the basic principle. So the concept of personal liberty (as an example) is not destroyed by the need to suspend certain liberties during an emergency.

    The Reagan/Thatcher consensus was always flawed because it believed there should be no intervention at all in the markets - it treated corporations as individuals with rights rather than as organisations to be managed and controlled within the law. That was wrong before Covid and it hasn't become any more or less wrong now. But it certainly doesn't mean that the normally touted alternative - of continuous state intervention or even ownership of businesses - is any less flawed.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Only because he cannot get over the loss of Johnson
    I don't think that's fair or accurate. Reading between the lines, I think HYUFD has genuine doubts about Truss's ability and appeal. Boris is a side issue.
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Only because he cannot get over the loss of Johnson
    I don't think that's fair or accurate. Reading between the lines, I think HYUFD has genuine doubts about Truss's ability and appeal. Boris is a side issue.
    I am afraid he is not - @HYUFD cannot come to terms with the loss of Johnson
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Dunno why, but I've really got a thing against old people now. I might start a political party (before I get too old) to attack them

    Perhaps it is because you are now recognising your own senescence and senility, and reacting against the dying of the light?
    Yes, maybe
    But it was always live fast, die young Leon, who wants to slowly decompose in a smelly nursing home? Read Amiss Ending Up and then head on that US road trip, with as much mescaline, meth, uppers, downers skoolboy, China girl (Ishmael zee would approve) toot, molly, bliss, joker - pack up your kibbles and bit - the Joshua Tree is calling you 🤘
    Naah, opiates suck. They also lose their glamour to an amazing extent when you get to the age where the NHS dishes them out to you like sweeties. So I just have a prudent stash of a lethal quantity of BP grade morphine, on a Be prepared kinda basis.
    A friend of mine tried heroin for the first time in 30 years, only the other day

    Told me it was "disappointing". He used to do a ton of smack (like me), so that was a little dismaying. Smack was my back up plan for late old age. I will just have to get the best shit possible
    Tell your friend to be careful - a heck of a lot of heroin these days is cut with fentanyl and it is very, very easy to accidentally OD.
    Wilko. Ta
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    Is it ?

    Here's a (partial) list of VP nominee possibles already on the Betfair market:
    Eric Garcetti; Gavin Newsom; Cory Booker; Michelle Obama; Michael Bloomberg; John Ossoff; Bernie Sanders; Andrew Yang; Katie Porter; Hillary Clinton; Gretchen Whitmer; Tulsi Gabbard; Ayanna Pressley; Jamaal Bowman; Nina Turner; Beto O Rourke; Andrew Cuomo; Bill Gates; Rashida Tlaib; Tammy Duckworth; Susan Rice; Eric Adams; Stacey Abrams...


    It's not as though I'm asking you to bet on the guy.
    @MrEd is more likely to be the Democratic VP nominee than Gavin Newsom.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,090
    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited August 2022

    MrEd said:

    Truss' problem is not that she's barking mad (although she has a bit of the messianic about her), it's that she's pushing a creed - neo-Thatcherism - that is turning completely out of fashion.

    We are now at the end of the 40 year+ Reagan / Thatcher consensus on how the world should be run. Covid put the final nail in the coffin, with its massive support of individuals and businesses ruining the idea Governments shouldn't intervene while businesses have done a great job at convincing people that the idea they can be trusted to be self-regulating is a complete fallacy. To quote an example, the fact that Dido Harding survived for years as a CEO with such compensation is a sign of how much the system is broken.

    We are now likely to see a return to some form of the post-1945 social democracy consensus in some form or another. Whoever gets that formula right will have electoral alchemy.

    Covid didn't put the final nail in the coffin anymore than the previous war did. Extreme events change the narrative for the duration of the event and perhaps a while afterwards. They don't change the rightness or wrongness of the basic principle. So the concept of personal liberty (as an example) is not destroyed by the need to suspend certain liberties during an emergency.

    The Reagan/Thatcher consensus was always flawed because it believed there should be no intervention at all in the markets - it treated corporations as individuals with rights rather than as organisations to be managed and controlled within the law. That was wrong before Covid and it hasn't become any more or less wrong now. But it certainly doesn't mean that the normally touted alternative - of continuous state intervention or even ownership of businesses - is any less flawed.
    Are you arguing not for an abandonment of Capitalism, but a bit of a UK rethink or reset of UK Capitalism?

    A glance to the world today, and the history books, surely shows it’s not a case of capitalism or something else, there are many shades and flavour of Capitalism. And surely if you have a gas heating system it’s sensible to flush it out from time to time, and upgrade boiler eventually - the new boilers come ready to be compatible with the green energy push for instance.

    But then for a while you will have salesman who can only sell the old boilers, whilst the world moves on.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Leon said:

    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair

    I was confident Truss would be a disaster on a scale that will eclipse even BoZo, but having read this I am now more certain than ever.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited August 2022

    I may have missed it, but nobody seems to have mentioned the rather obvious point that France is much closer, geographically, to us than Turkey, Hungary, the USA or indeed anywhere else.

    It's surely much better to see neighbours, a mere 21 miles away, as close friends.

    Why can the English never remember the existence of Ireland?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
    I think getting above 41% at this stage is generally positive for him, nothing like Truman's new deal boost of course but he's well back in the game now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    I will support Truss if she is leader because she is leader but more out of loyalty to the party than her. She would probably be the least favourite leader I have campaigned for, although I like some of her policies on allowing new grammars and refusing indyref2 and scrapping housing targets
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    Is it ?

    Here's a (partial) list of VP nominee possibles already on the Betfair market:
    Eric Garcetti; Gavin Newsom; Cory Booker; Michelle Obama; Michael Bloomberg; John Ossoff; Bernie Sanders; Andrew Yang; Katie Porter; Hillary Clinton; Gretchen Whitmer; Tulsi Gabbard; Ayanna Pressley; Jamaal Bowman; Nina Turner; Beto O Rourke; Andrew Cuomo; Bill Gates; Rashida Tlaib; Tammy Duckworth; Susan Rice; Eric Adams; Stacey Abrams...


    It's not as though I'm asking you to bet on the guy.
    Buttigieg too
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
    W and HW are the wrong way around.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    DavidL said:

    One thing that I have noticed is that Liz Truss has a peculiarly expressive face. The photographers are going to have fun with that. I hope she doesn't plan to play poker with the government finances.

    They are battling to make her look fresh, not fatigued - though the FO workload plus electioneering travel must be hell.

    I think Liz big eyes so important to her communication, I hope they haven’t tampered with them to make them too rigid. She would of course then photograph well, but communicate poorly without the expressive face moving.

    In recent weeks I think her stylist is turning her abit into a Mondasian Cyberman. Do you see my point?


  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Thanks for confirming the view I expressed above. You don't rate her.
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
    Are we sure that won't happen anyway?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,461
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
    He makes a good point though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair

    I was confident Truss would be a disaster on a scale that will eclipse even BoZo, but having read this I am now more certain than ever.
    Yes, but you're a ridiculous, discredited lunatic (sadly) so your opinion does not carry a lot of weight. I might as well listen to the homeless guy who walks past my house, every day at about 3pm, shouting "CARS! CARS! CARS!", and has been doing so for many years

    Indeed, if you replace the shouty word CARS with BREXIT you are essentially the same tragic figure
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
    He makes a good point though.
    Really? I've always thought his obsession with stepmoms slightly odd.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,090
    ydoethur said:

    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [not re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
    W and HW are the wrong way around.
    Whoops! So they are.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578


    Now, that would be hilarious @rcs1000
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    Is it ?

    Here's a (partial) list of VP nominee possibles already on the Betfair market:
    Eric Garcetti; Gavin Newsom; Cory Booker; Michelle Obama; Michael Bloomberg; John Ossoff; Bernie Sanders; Andrew Yang; Katie Porter; Hillary Clinton; Gretchen Whitmer; Tulsi Gabbard; Ayanna Pressley; Jamaal Bowman; Nina Turner; Beto O Rourke; Andrew Cuomo; Bill Gates; Rashida Tlaib; Tammy Duckworth; Susan Rice; Eric Adams; Stacey Abrams...


    It's not as though I'm asking you to bet on the guy.
    @MrEd is more likely to be the Democratic VP nominee than Gavin Newsom.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,461
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    As @Big_G_NorthWales said the other day she may start with a bang coming out with some radical initiatives, particularly with cost of living and energy prices. If she does she will probably get a good bounce. If not it is likely to be downhill.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited August 2022

    MrEd said:

    Truss' problem is not that she's barking mad (although she has a bit of the messianic about her), it's that she's pushing a creed - neo-Thatcherism - that is turning completely out of fashion.

    We are now at the end of the 40 year+ Reagan / Thatcher consensus on how the world should be run. Covid put the final nail in the coffin, with its massive support of individuals and businesses ruining the idea Governments shouldn't intervene while businesses have done a great job at convincing people that the idea they can be trusted to be self-regulating is a complete fallacy. To quote an example, the fact that Dido Harding survived for years as a CEO with such compensation is a sign of how much the system is broken.

    We are now likely to see a return to some form of the post-1945 social democracy consensus in some form or another. Whoever gets that formula right will have electoral alchemy.

    Covid didn't put the final nail in the coffin anymore than the previous war did. Extreme events change the narrative for the duration of the event and perhaps a while afterwards. They don't change the rightness or wrongness of the basic principle. So the concept of personal liberty (as an example) is not destroyed by the need to suspend certain liberties during an emergency.

    The Reagan/Thatcher consensus was always flawed because it believed there should be no intervention at all in the markets - it treated corporations as individuals with rights rather than as organisations to be managed and controlled within the law. That was wrong before Covid and it hasn't become any more or less wrong now. But it certainly doesn't mean that the normally touted alternative - of continuous state intervention or even ownership of businesses - is any less flawed.
    Are you arguing not for an abandonment of Capitalism, but a bit of a UK rethink or reset of UK Capitalism?

    A glance to the world today, and the history books, surely shows it’s not a case of capitalism or something else, there are many shades and flavour of Capitalism. And surely if you have a gas heating system it’s sensible to flush it out from time to time, and upgrade boiler eventually - the new boilers come ready to be compatible with the green energy push for instance.

    But then for a while you will have salesman who can only sell the old boilers, whilst the world moves on.
    I am inescapably slightly sceptical of equating state economies with domestic funding, after Mrs T famously did - but that was a long time ago.

    And, more in response to RT, I have a distinct, and I think genuine, memory of learning that Mrs T's guru Keith Joseph had, in his edition of Wealth of Nations, deleted Smith's famous warning that (modernising his expressions a liuttle) corporations needed to be controlled with shock collars, cattle prods and barbed-wire cages or they'd run riot if you let them take over the state. (This was discussed in, I think, a symposium in one of the learned societies' proceedings c. 1990 on 'Victorian Values').
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,461
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
    He makes a good point though.
    Really? I've always thought his obsession with stepmoms slightly odd.
    Very good. I've now got hyufd and TSE mixed up in my mind and it hurts.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,156
    edited August 2022
    MrEd said:

    Truss' problem is not that she's barking mad (although she has a bit of the messianic about her), it's that she's pushing a creed - neo-Thatcherism - that is turning completely out of fashion.

    We are now at the end of the 40 year+ Reagan / Thatcher consensus on how the world should be run. Covid put the final nail in the coffin, with its massive support of individuals and businesses ruining the idea Governments shouldn't intervene while businesses have done a great job at convincing people that the idea they can be trusted to be self-regulating is a complete fallacy. To quote an example, the fact that Dido Harding survived for years as a CEO with such compensation is a sign of how much the system is broken.

    We are now likely to see a return to some form of the post-1945 social democracy consensus in some form or another. Whoever gets that formula right will have electoral alchemy.

    Some of us take the opposite view of course. That after years of ever increasing taxes, expenditure and interventionism, leading to the highest tax rate in 74 years, that now is precisely the time that the Conservatives need to be making the argument for lower taxation and interventionism.

    If not now, then when?

    Sunak wants to raise taxes like Gordon Brown, raise NI like Gordon Brown raise Corporation Tax like Gordon Brown and views everything through a prism of all money belonging to the Treasury like Gordon Brown. I opposed Gordon Brown, I'd be a pure hypocrite if I supported Gordon Sunak (I nearly wrote Rishi Brown but that sounds racist).

    Yes it may lose the next election, but I'm ok with that. I'd rather the Tories lose than win as Labour.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,090
    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    That's a very illuminating list of geopolitical detritus.

    It explains a lot about the parlous state we're all in.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    I love these types of questions.

    The answer (from what I have managed to glean from PBers more knowledgeable than myself) is in two parts. Firstly, creating enough power generation to decouple electricity from the price of gas, meaning at least leccy is affordable.

    To do that:
    1. Delay (again) the decommissioning of that nuclear plant. No way that should be happening.
    2. Repurpose some gas power stations to burn other fuel this winter
    3. Rush through any power generation projects where there's a possibility of generating this Winter, even if the putative go live date was not for some time. This may apply to some waste incineration schemes, wind schemes etc.

    Then, try to increase the gas supply by:

    1. Reopening gas storage capacity
    2. Obliging UK gas providers to enter into long term contracts to supply the domestic market
    3. Any and all ancillary help that gas producers may need to ramp up supply as much as possible
    4. Pray for a mild winter

    I also think we shouldn't be at war with the world's biggest gas supplier, but realistically, even a foreign policy u-turn of kissing Putin's bum won't help us in the UK, because how would the gas get here? The EU caving would seem to help us a lot though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Ladbrokes Politics
    @LadPolitics
    ·
    7m
    For the first time since September 10th 2018, we now make Labour favourites to win the most seats at a General Election
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,461
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair

    I was confident Truss would be a disaster on a scale that will eclipse even BoZo, but having read this I am now more certain than ever.
    Yes, but you're a ridiculous, discredited lunatic (sadly) so your opinion does not carry a lot of weight. I might as well listen to the homeless guy who walks past my house, every day at about 3pm, shouting "CARS! CARS! CARS!", and has been doing so for many years

    Indeed, if you replace the shouty word CARS with BREXIT you are essentially the same tragic figure
    Oh the irony.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    That's a very illuminating list of geopolitical detritus.

    It explains a lot about the parlous state we're all in.
    Yes, it does

    Unfortunately, the really major names are the autocrats or actual despots:

    Putin, Xi, Erdogan, Modi

    All of them, I would say, are more consequential figures in modern history than any of the current G7 leaders

    We are probably past Peak Democracy
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Truss will be DIFFERENT to Boris. Not as charming or funny, but not as feral and selfish. She may surprise on the upside. She's s smart and confident and she is nowhere near as boring as TMay, Brown or Starmer

    My guess is that no Tory leader (including Boris, probably) could overcome the headwinds we now face, and after 12 years in office - the public want the Tories gone even if they dislike Labour

    But Truss definitely has a chance, and she will cling on to that. Tories should not despair
    Truss is Boris without the charisma and May without the gravitas and seriousness
    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.
    He’s always been agnostic when it comes to Liz.
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:
    Idiotic.

    Macron is not a friend, he's the President of France but no friend. He's not a foe either.

    Why do muppets feel the need to pretend the President of France is our friend?
    Because we’re both western democracies in NATO and frankly the way things are going western democracies all need all the friends they can get.

    So are Orban, Erdogan and Trump "friends"?
    Trump isn't in power. Comparing Macron to Orban and Erdogan just reemphasises the Francophobia you have so often shown on this board.
    Trump was in power.

    Orban and Erdogan are the leaders of NATO allies of ours.
    Hungary and Turkey are barely democracies though. Anyway, if they are non-hostile powers then they are friends. That's the language of diplomacy. If she doesn't understand that then she's not up to the job. Why wind people up unnessessarily? If you want to do that come on here.
    Two separate things here. I agree with you about the idiocy of Truss so I am not agreeing with Bart on that bit.

    But Turkey and Hungary are, by our own definitions, democracies. We may not agree with the choices the people make nor with the actions of the elected governments but they are elected by popular mandate and have not, as yet, chosen to move away from that system of electing their governments.

    When criticising other countries by calling them 'barely democracies' it is worth baring in mind that plenty of people - including no small number on PB - consider the UK to be barely a democracy because of our electoral system. I happen to disagree with them but they have a logical argument for this.

    I would also agree with Bart that, although I think it is deeply stupid for our prospective PM to say it, there are no friends in international diplomacy, only overlapping spheres of self interest.

    “We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual.”

    - Lord Palmerston
    Truss wasn't referring to France, she was specifically asked about Macron

    And the jury really is out as to whether HE is a friend or foe of the UK, I'm tempted to say more foe than friend. Either way, leaders are entirely different to countries

    If Starmer becomes PM in 2024, and Trump is elected prez the same year, and Starmer is asked "is Trump friend or foe", what should he say?
    "The United States and the United Kingdom have a relationship going back centuries which is vital to the security of the free world and is bigger than the temporary holders of office, whether that is President Trump or myself. Values are more important than individuals."

    If you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Or better still, use lots of words to say nothing.
    But it is a politician waffling, typically

    Truss gave a direct answer, and an accurate one. The jury IS out on Macron. He has been quite hostile to Britain at several junctures. Therefor I would say: a foe, as things stand. Truss has yet to decide

    If she'd been asked about FRANCE I am sure she would have said FRIEND (and rightly so)
    Why thank you. Waffle was the effect I was after- it's the difference between a diplomat and a polemicist.

    Incidentally, Bozza had hit the mark in his unique way.

    Boris Johnson says Emmanuel Macron is a 'tres bon buddy' of the UK

    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1563119645212954624

    Matey, jokey, Franglais mangled just enough to not be grovelly.
    Yes, looks like Truss already needs Boris to step in and sort out her gaffes
    I increasingly get the sense that you are in despair about Truss - you're really not keen at all, are you?

    That should worry the Tory Party, as you are usually the absolute epitome of devout loyalty to the leader. But you will struggle with Truss, I suspect.
    Only because he cannot get over the loss of Johnson
    I don't think that's fair or accurate. Reading between the lines, I think HYUFD has genuine doubts about Truss's ability and appeal. Boris is a side issue.
    I am afraid he is not - @HYUFD cannot come to terms with the loss of Johnson
    HYUFD is as impartial as @bigjohnowls is regarding Corbyn/Sunak.

    Heck, HYUFD went on a tirade about Sunak being a traitor. Now I've made my dislike of Sunak lately clear, despite my book, but that's because of his Brownian tax and spend policies. Not because he's a "traitor" that comment was beyond the pale.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited August 2022

    MrEd said:

    Truss' problem is not that she's barking mad (although she has a bit of the messianic about her), it's that she's pushing a creed - neo-Thatcherism - that is turning completely out of fashion.

    We are now at the end of the 40 year+ Reagan / Thatcher consensus on how the world should be run. Covid put the final nail in the coffin, with its massive support of individuals and businesses ruining the idea Governments shouldn't intervene while businesses have done a great job at convincing people that the idea they can be trusted to be self-regulating is a complete fallacy. To quote an example, the fact that Dido Harding survived for years as a CEO with such compensation is a sign of how much the system is broken.

    We are now likely to see a return to some form of the post-1945 social democracy consensus in some form or another. Whoever gets that formula right will have electoral alchemy.

    Covid didn't put the final nail in the coffin anymore than the previous war did. Extreme events change the narrative for the duration of the event and perhaps a while afterwards. They don't change the rightness or wrongness of the basic principle. So the concept of personal liberty (as an example) is not destroyed by the need to suspend certain liberties during an emergency.

    The Reagan/Thatcher consensus was always flawed because it believed there should be no intervention at all in the markets - it treated corporations as individuals with rights rather than as organisations to be managed and controlled within the law. That was wrong before Covid and it hasn't become any more or less wrong now. But it certainly doesn't mean that the normally touted alternative - of continuous state intervention or even ownership of businesses - is any less flawed.
    Are you arguing not for an abandonment of Capitalism, but a bit of a UK rethink or reset of UK Capitalism?

    A glance to the world today, and the history books, surely shows it’s not a case of capitalism or something else, there are many shades and flavour of Capitalism. And surely if you have a gas heating system it’s sensible to flush it out from time to time, and upgrade boiler eventually - the new boilers come ready to be compatible with the green energy push for instance.

    But then for a while you will have salesman who can only sell the old boilers, whilst the world moves on.
    Yes I think I am arguing for the UK rethink version. I don't think that what we have today in the UK - and certainly in the US - is true to the original ideas of Adam Smith. I think a reset is necessary or else the whole thing becomes discredited and is in danger of being overthrown.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    That's a very illuminating list of geopolitical detritus.

    It explains a lot about the parlous state we're all in.
    Yes, it does

    Unfortunately, the really major names are the autocrats or actual despots:

    Putin, Xi, Erdogan, Modi

    All of them, I would say, are more consequential figures in modern history than any of the current G7 leaders

    We are probably past Peak Democracy
    Modi was elected and leads the biggest democracy in the world.

    Erdogan and Putin were also elected in more dubious circumstances.

    Only Xi of the above was elected without the general population having a say
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    Meloni may of course be Italian leader next month, currently it is Draghi
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    That's a very illuminating list of geopolitical detritus.

    It explains a lot about the parlous state we're all in.
    Yes, it does

    Unfortunately, the really major names are the autocrats or actual despots:

    Putin, Xi, Erdogan, Modi

    All of them, I would say, are more consequential figures in modern history than any of the current G7 leaders

    We are probably past Peak Democracy
    Modi was elected and leads the biggest democracy in the world.

    Erdogan and Putin were also elected in more dubious circumstances.

    Only Xi of the above was elected without the general population having a say
    Erdogan was elected in dubious circumstances.

    Putin was not. His election is an utter sham, there's no free speech, no democracy, opposition politicians are murdered as a matter of course. It's ignorant to even suggest he was elected.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    Meloni may of course be Italian leader next month, currently it is Draghi
    Meloni is interesting. She could be an Italian Thatcher. I doubt it, because of the unfortunate way Italian society works against real reform, but she is worth a prayer

    There is so much unlocked potential in Italy. Wonderful country, great people, lot of brains and talent, let it rip
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 40% (+7)
    CON: 26% (-19)
    LDM: 11% (-1)
    GRN: 6% (+3)
    REF: 5% (+3)

    via @PeoplePolling, 22 Aug

    (Changes with 2019 Election)
  • ydoethur said:

    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.

    I've been forced to retire the stepmom analogy.
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    14 Rishi Sunak 7%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    14 Rishi Sunak 7%

    Rishi moves out a point for next leader.

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    14 Rishi Sunak 7%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    15 Rishi Sunak 7%
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    14.5 Rishi Sunak 7%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.06 Liz Truss 94%
    15 Rishi Sunak 7%
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    15 Rishi Sunak 7%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.06 Liz Truss 94%
    15.5 Rishi Sunak 6%
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    ydoethur said:

    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.

    I've been forced to retire the stepmom analogy.
    Any new ones

    ‘Hey, I’ve come to fix the photocopier, it’s awful hot in here, I need to take my top off….’
  • Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tory implosion KLAXON!!!

    If they've lost Hyufd, TSE will spend the night of the next election obsessing about stepmoms.

    I've been forced to retire the stepmom analogy.
    Any new ones

    ‘Hey, I’ve come to fix the photocopier, it’s awful hot in here, I need to take my top off….’
    I'm too traumatised at the moment to think about any new analogies.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010
    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 40% (+7)
    CON: 26% (-19)
    LDM: 11% (-1)
    GRN: 6% (+3)
    REF: 5% (+3)

    via @PeoplePolling, 22 Aug

    (Changes with 2019 Election)

    This is before the Cost of Living Crisis has really hit people.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    This will be a scandal on a par with Savile in years to come. Those who partook in this and enabled it should be held to account but won’t be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    Worth noting. That excellent piece of Sleuthing Journalism was done by @libsoftiktok

    She is an orthodox Jewish woman in the USA and both Facebook and Twitter have tried to silence her - suspending her, etc. Yet all she does is expose the madness of The Woke with their own words, as here. They do not like being exposed

    This is the Front Line of the Culture War
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    What is a "non-medical" hysterectamy?

    Because - one would think - removing of the womb would be inherently medical.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    This will be a scandal on a par with Savile in years to come. Those who partook in this and enabled it should be held to account but won’t be.
    It will end up far far bigger than Savile, and I believe people WILL be held to account, especially in the USA. Americans are not known for holding back on lawsuits, prison and ruination
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    I love these types of questions.

    The answer (from what I have managed to glean from PBers more knowledgeable than myself) is in two parts. Firstly, creating enough power generation to decouple electricity from the price of gas, meaning at least leccy is affordable.

    To do that:
    1. Delay (again) the decommissioning of that nuclear plant. No way that should be happening.
    2. Repurpose some gas power stations to burn other fuel this winter
    ...
    Yes, should be simple enough to convert a gas-fired power station to burn something else in a couple of months.

    How about also repurposing solar panels to work off moonshine?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
    I think you got your HW and W the wrong way around.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    "We do not provide..." is not a denial that they have done it in the past.
  • Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    This will be a scandal on a par with Savile in years to come. Those who partook in this and enabled it should be held to account but won’t be.
    It will end up far far bigger than Savile, and I believe people WILL be held to account, especially in the USA. Americans are not known for holding back on lawsuits, prison and ruination
    I do hope so, I really do hope so.

    However when labour win in 2024/5 I fear this part of life will get far worse not better.
  • Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    "We do not provide..." is not a denial that they have done it in the past.
    Yet where are the alleged victims from the past?

    If this had happened then you'd expect to see people coming forwards. Not a phone call to a non medical operator who said it who might or might not have been accurate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Faisal Islam
    @faisalislam
    ·
    1h
    NEW 🚨 OBR confirms it can do a forecast by mid September of the changed economic outlook… in a letter to Treasury Select Committee… puts new Government in position of having to formally reject this offer, despite the clearly changed economic outlook.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Always the Woke defend the Woke. Oh, nothing to see here. Move on, move on

    Puke-worthy
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    What is a "non-medical" hysterectamy?

    Because - one would think - removing of the womb would be inherently medical.
    Presumably one not done for medical reasons.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    The Woke will not accept hard evidence if you shove it down their stupid mewling mouths
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Everyone can save energy by having the heating on for just a few hours in the morning and evening in the winter. We've always done this.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    When I worked, I had at times to deal with the kind of problems that corporate website managers and front of house people could cause by introducing errors and confusion even when they were trying to be helpful, rather than referring them to the right persons. At the moment - at the moment - this feels like it, but we will have to wait and see.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    The scale of energy bill increases this winter could put the very fabric of civil society at risk.

    This requires urgent, radical intervention. The next Prime Minister must take a practical pragmatic approach. Now is not the time for ideological purity.


    https://twitter.com/robertlargan/status/1563173176468975622
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    The Woke will not accept hard evidence if you shove it down their stupid mewling mouths
    Ther case of a 19 year old in Australia is hard evidence for what a US hospital does to 15 years olds?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Andy_JS said:

    Everyone can save energy by having the heating on for just a few hours in the morning and evening in the winter. We've always done this.

    When working from home?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    But the right one, especially if Biden stands and the party wants to ditch Harris as VP.

    Nigelb said:

    NigelB asks: "Why isn't this guy even on the Vice President nominee market on Betfair ?"

    Because: "He was a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid." And because he is neither black nor female, in a party which is hooked on identity poltics.

    That's a pretty poor answer on both counts.
    Is it ?

    Here's a (partial) list of VP nominee possibles already on the Betfair market:
    Eric Garcetti; Gavin Newsom; Cory Booker; Michelle Obama; Michael Bloomberg; John Ossoff; Bernie Sanders; Andrew Yang; Katie Porter; Hillary Clinton; Gretchen Whitmer; Tulsi Gabbard; Ayanna Pressley; Jamaal Bowman; Nina Turner; Beto O Rourke; Andrew Cuomo; Bill Gates; Rashida Tlaib; Tammy Duckworth; Susan Rice; Eric Adams; Stacey Abrams...


    It's not as though I'm asking you to bet on the guy.
    @MrEd is more likely to be the Democratic VP nominee than Gavin Newsom.
    I'm not making a case for any of them.
    I'd just like to be able to back or lay.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    What is a "non-medical" hysterectamy?

    Because - one would think - removing of the womb would be inherently medical.
    I mean one that is not done for an urgent physical and medical reason, like disease or injury; instead, a surgery that is elective

    No girl should have her uterus removed before she is 16. How can we even be discussing this evil shit?

  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,090
    rcs1000 said:

    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Biden approval up to 41.8%.

    At the same point in the presidency
    Ahead of Truman and Reagen,
    ever so slightly behind Trump, Clinton and Carter.
    A little further behind Obama and Ford.
    Way behind W Bush, HW Bush, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower

    Ahead of Truman [re-elected] and Reagan [re-elected],
    ever so slightly behind Trump [not re-elected], Clinton [re-elected] and Carter [not re-elected].
    A little further behind Obama [re-elected] and Ford [not re-elected].
    Way behind W Bush [not re-elected], HW Bush [re-elected], Nixon [re-elected but suffered local difficulties], Johnson [re-elected], Kennedy [not re-elected but didn't get the chance], Eisenhower [re-elected]

    I've added some re-election annotations. I don't think they are very predictive!
    I think you got your HW and W the wrong way around.
    Yup - corrected upthread but after the moritorium on changes. Fortunately, they both appear in the same section, so it doesn't affect the detailed, forensic analysis.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    When I worked, I had at times to deal with the kind of problems that corporate website managers and front of house people could cause by introducing errors and confusion even when they were trying to be helpful, rather than referring them to the right persons. At the moment - at the moment - this feels like it, but we will have to wait and see.
    No, you just don't understand what is happening in these clinics
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577

    DavidL said:

    One thing that I have noticed is that Liz Truss has a peculiarly expressive face. The photographers are going to have fun with that. I hope she doesn't plan to play poker with the government finances.

    They are battling to make her look fresh, not fatigued - though the FO workload plus electioneering travel must be hell.

    I think Liz big eyes so important to her communication, I hope they haven’t tampered with them to make them too rigid. She would of course then photograph well, but communicate poorly without the expressive face moving.

    In recent weeks I think her stylist is turning her abit into a Mondasian Cyberman. Do you see my point?


    Is that a gimp mask ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    The Woke will not accept hard evidence if you shove it down their stupid mewling mouths
    Ther case of a 19 year old in Australia is hard evidence for what a US hospital does to 15 years olds?
    DO SOME FUCKING READING
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    What is a "non-medical" hysterectamy?

    Because - one would think - removing of the womb would be inherently medical.
    I mean one that is not done for an urgent physical and medical reason, like disease or injury; instead, a surgery that is elective

    No girl should have her uterus removed before she is 16. How can we even be discussing this evil shit?

    I think you mean:

    No girl, absent a serious medical condition like cancer, should have her uterus removed before the age of 16.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Sandbrook: And does it end happily? Well, I hate to spoil a good story, but the answer’s no. It doesn’t. Have the Tories really not learned that lesson?

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/how-to-get-over-boris-johnson/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3&mc_cid=f400edd903&mc_eid=836634e34b
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Andy_JS said:

    Everyone can save energy by having the heating on for just a few hours in the morning and evening in the winter. We've always done this.

    Well yes: the reality is that - just thirty or forty years ago - families would only heat the room they were in, and only at times they were in it.

    We got richer. Energy got relatively cheaper. And we all got lazier.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,156
    edited August 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    At 19, not a child.

    As a 19 year old she consented. That's worlds apart from doing it to anyone under 16.

    Edit actually it goes on to say the surgery was at 22 so even further apart and presumably after therapy etc too? Completely different to surgery on children.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    Fortunately, the joy of the legal system in Western countries is that doctors will rapidly become incredibly risk averse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    What is a "non-medical" hysterectamy?

    Because - one would think - removing of the womb would be inherently medical.
    I mean one that is not done for an urgent physical and medical reason, like disease or injury; instead, a surgery that is elective

    No girl should have her uterus removed before she is 16. How can we even be discussing this evil shit?

    I think you mean:

    No girl, absent a serious medical condition like cancer, should have her uterus removed before the age of 16.
    Yes, that is better phrased. This subject makes me quite angry and I might have lost my prosodic edge

    I shall step away from PB and arrange my trip to Colorado

    Later!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DC children's hospital offered 'gender affirming' hysterectomies for kids, audio and deleted webpage reveal

    A Children's National Hospital employee in Washington, D.C. is heard on a recording saying that hysterectomies have been done on children younger than 16


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-childrens-hospital-offered-gender-affirming-hysterectomies-kids-audio-deleted-webpage-reveal

    They are going to be so sued for this in years to come.
    it is depraved beyond imagining. People need to do jailtime

    Non-medical hysterectomies for kids under 16. How can that ever be permissible or moral. It is the weird shit you read about in disgusting cruel dictatorships, like Japanese experimenting on American GIs

    But this is in US hospitals??
    Hmm. Are you all sure? Look at the source. Wokefinder General central.

    The hospital denies it.

    https://twitter.com/ChildrensNatl/status/1562907404513456128?cxt=HHwWgMDR7Z6AyLArAAAA

    Evidence profferred against it is a webpage, of the kind that has text easily messed up by corporate website managers to mean something it shouldn't, and some marketing/telephone person, not clearly identified as a medic.

    Though, given the sensitivity of the issue, it is at best an appalling piece of sloppiness on the hospital's part.
    Indeed. A dodgy website and a dodgy phone call isn't good but with Saville when the story broke there were loads of people coming out saying "this happened to me". Not heard a single person come forward and say it happened to them, which makes it all seem more than a touch strange.
    Are you serious? There are many, many cases of vulnerable people who were pushed towards surgical treatments that were not appropriate. Here's a case of a young Sydney woman who had her breasts, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries removed and is now suing her psychiatrist:

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html
    At 19-22, not a child.

    As a 19-22 year old she consented. That's worlds apart from doing it to anyone under 16.
    "“I was failed by the system. I literally lost organs.”

    When Chloe was 12 years old, she decided she was transgender. At 13, she came out to her parents. That same year, she was put on puberty blockers and prescribed testosterone. At 15, she underwent a double mastectomy. Less than a year later, she realized she’d made a mistake — all by the time she was 16 years old."

    https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Where would Truss stand in the G7 or the wider G20?

    She's probably better than the German Scholz. Not as self assured as Macron, but then he's lost his majority and is now a lame duck (ahh, so sad). She's better than Biden. Who's the Italian leader? Dunno. Ditto Japan. She's not as slick as Justin Trudeau but might not be as annoying

    Controversially, I prefer her to Vlad Putin or Xi Jinping

    So in the international rankings, she's not doing so bad for a newbie

    Meloni may of course be Italian leader next month, currently it is Draghi
    Meloni is interesting. She could be an Italian Thatcher. I doubt it, because of the unfortunate way Italian society works against real reform, but she is worth a prayer

    There is so much unlocked potential in Italy. Wonderful country, great people, lot of brains and talent, let it rip
    Italian brains and talent is mostly already fully occupied coping with the reality of living in Italy.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,461
    edited August 2022
    Chris said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    I love these types of questions.

    The answer (from what I have managed to glean from PBers more knowledgeable than myself) is in two parts. Firstly, creating enough power generation to decouple electricity from the price of gas, meaning at least leccy is affordable.

    To do that:
    1. Delay (again) the decommissioning of that nuclear plant. No way that should be happening.
    2. Repurpose some gas power stations to burn other fuel this winter
    ...
    Yes, should be simple enough to convert a gas-fired power station to burn something else in a couple of months.

    How about also repurposing solar panels to work off moonshine?
    @hyufd will just tell you, you are just being negative. Get a few million engineers on it and that should be fixed in a weekend.
This discussion has been closed.