As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
🔴Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak have both committed to hosting a reception for the victorious Lionesses at No 10 if they are chosen to be the next prime minister
Great, what about introducing more football pitches after you cut them
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Large chunks of the public sector still pay according to the years served, banding etc
That is because that is how the unions like it. Mediocrity should be rewarded the same as excellence
🔴Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak have both committed to hosting a reception for the victorious Lionesses at No 10 if they are chosen to be the next prime minister
Great, what about introducing more football pitches after you cut them
Perhaps the FA might ask a few footballers to donate, rather than assuming that the taxpayer always should?
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Large chunks of the public sector still pay according to the years served, banding etc
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Large chunks of the public sector still pay according to the years served, banding etc
Mr. Foremain, while I agree with the description of Corbyn, he's a **** that came within a few thousand votes of being Prime Minister.
Boris Johnson is riddled with flaws and both his potential successors are not stellar, but the fact we came so close to having a hard left fool like him in charge remains deeply alarming.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Large chunks of the public sector still pay according to the years served, banding etc
Only for a few years - I don't think I've ever seen a payscale that has more than 5 or so bands within it...
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
Welcome back BigG. Hope you and family are fully recovered soon! 👍
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Mr. Foremain, while I agree with the description of Corbyn, he's a **** that came within a few thousand votes of being Prime Minister.
Boris Johnson is riddled with flaws and both his potential successors are not stellar, but the fact we came so close to having a hard left fool like him in charge remains deeply alarming.
But if we'd had AV, or preferably a real form of proportional representation all that could've been avoided! Should we have a thread on the subject?
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Speedy recovery to you both. In the meantime you have all the hustings to enjoy, most (all?) of them seem to be streamed.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
A complete stupid policy with major flaws in it that keeps on re-appearing every few years...
If you want to save money - look at increasing productivity rather than paying people less - that will allow you to pay fewer staff the same or more....
However it requires upfront investment so it isn't going to happen because the money isn't there to pay upfront for the work required.
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Which has the by-product of increasing staff turnover and reducing institutional knowledge. It's the cause of a lot of inefficiency.
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Thank you and I have e mailed our GP with our present situation
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Too late - it has to be taken within 5 days of infection. And the NHS are not generous in handing it out. My 85 year old mum was told no.
I wonder if the contract has a deadline such as July 31st that Alpine may have missed or is hoping not to be completely enforced....
The rumour is that Alonso had a 31st July deadline on his option from Alpine, and that team didn’t know anything about the driver leaving until the AM announcement at 9am on 1st August!
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Completely not true. It doesn't say "will save £8.8 billion a year" it says "will save up to £8.8 billion a year"
Cutting out the words "up to" is no better than cutting out the word "could".
The policy is a bungled mess. No wonder it had your enthusiastic support.
Its a policy I've always supported. I still do, even though Truss doesn't.
Its funny how many people claim in general terms to believe in localism and that things are too controlled at Whitehall level, but actually propose some genuine localism and flexibility and people inevitably run away in terror.
You've said yourself many times before how the UK is too centralised. Well, if you want to address that, this is where to start.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Private sector pay has increased over the years - public sector pay isn't much different from 2010 or really 2005...
2 friends of Mrs Eek have just joined at her place for an easy life prior to retirement. Both have gone from £70k+ private sector jobs to £35,000 max but only went there because the Mrs sold it to them...
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Which has the by-product of increasing staff turnover and reducing institutional knowledge. It's the cause of a lot of inefficiency.
All the career advice I've had is to get a new job to get promoted. I know someone who did that, worked for 6 months, and popped back to their old firm in the new position.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
Completely not true. It doesn't say "will save £8.8 billion a year" it says "will save up to £8.8 billion a year"
Cutting out the words "up to" is no better than cutting out the word "could".
The policy is a bungled mess. No wonder it had your enthusiastic support.
Its a policy I've always supported. I still do, even though Truss doesn't.
Its funny how many people claim in general terms to believe in localism and that things are too controlled at Whitehall level, but actually propose some genuine localism and flexibility and people inevitably run away in terror.
You've said yourself many times before how the UK is too centralised. Well, if you want to address that, this is where to start.
I wouldn’t start there. See my subsequent comment.
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
Good to hear from you Big_G, and I hope everyone in the family recovers from Covid soon.
I've been able to go back to knit group in Edinburgh a couple of times now, and the mood there is not to mention Boris while people are eating, and that the Tories are doing Sturgeon's job of arguing for Independence every time they say or do anything.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Which has the by-product of increasing staff turnover and reducing institutional knowledge. It's the cause of a lot of inefficiency.
That is/was the way to get a payrise in teaching after the first 4 or 5 years.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Which has the by-product of increasing staff turnover and reducing institutional knowledge. It's the cause of a lot of inefficiency.
All the career advice I've had is to get a new job to get promoted. I know someone who did that, worked for 6 months, and popped back to their old firm in the new position.
Essentially what I’m having to do. The government have closed most promotion avenues down over the years and ours is a bit silly anyway. I want a technical lead job but it’s become obvious I’m unlikely o get it where I am.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Essentially planning is just a complex system and not many people understand it. Anyone who understands it and can operate within it is in massive demand because of the extent of current development pressure. Its just supply and demand.
Edit - and you can't really change the situation by training people up. It takes years, and people mostly just flake out and typically look out for other more dynamic/positive jobs. The more complicated the government make the planning system (always under the guise of 'simplification'), the more these problems are exacerbated.
She specifically said she has no intention of cutting anyone’s pay. More lies from Team Sunak.
So, she just wants to increase pay in London? That seems unlikely to cut government spending, and it seems unlikely to be popular in the former Red Wall.
The sensible way to do it would be to increase pay based upon supply and demand where vacancies can't be filled, while leaving pay frozen or increased slower elsewhere, as already happens.
Over time that might be a real terms pay cut for some people, but that already happens today when national pay rates increase by less than inflation so swings and roundabouts.
If you want vacancies filled, then national pay bargaining is the worst way to do that.
Truss' policy was a rubbish halfway house that changed one type of central planning with a slightly different type of central planning. Economically that's not going to make any difference, and politically it was only looking at areas for savings and not at whether certain areas should be paid more if there are shortages.
I can see the case for pay being negotiated at the individual level or perhaps the organisation level for union workers, thus better matching supply with demand than the current inflexible bandings. Pay will go up in some places and down in others in a not entirely predictable way. But the policy as proposed was just a crap middle ground that helped no one.
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Thank you and I have e mailed our GP with our present situation
Yes, get well soon! I’m currently off with what feels like a nasty summer cold so I’m keeping away from people until I’m sure that’s what it is.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Private sector pay has increased over the years - public sector pay isn't much different from 2010 or really 2005...
2 friends of Mrs Eek have just joined at her place for an easy life prior to retirement. Both have gone from £70k+ private sector jobs to £35,000 max but only went there because the Mrs sold it to them...
Yes. But why planning officers in particular? As opposed to any other public sector position. Or is this just an example. Incidentally. I am awaiting my portable DBS for teaching come September. Am pitching for £200 per day in the northeast. Am not being told an outright no, shall we say.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
A regional minimum wage would go down like a lead balloon.
But the issue is rarely the wage - it's the lack of investment and a tendency in the UK to use cheap labour as a substitute for that investment until the firm goes bankrupt.
She specifically said she has no intention of cutting anyone’s pay. More lies from Team Sunak.
So, she just wants to increase pay in London? That seems unlikely to cut government spending, and it seems unlikely to be popular in the former Red Wall.
The sensible way to do it would be to increase pay based upon supply and demand where vacancies can't be filled, while leaving pay frozen or increased slower elsewhere, as already happens.
Over time that might be a real terms pay cut for some people, but that already happens today when national pay rates increase by less than inflation so swings and roundabouts.
If you want vacancies filled, then national pay bargaining is the worst way to do that.
Truss' policy was a rubbish halfway house that changed one type of central planning with a slightly different type of central planning. Economically that's not going to make any difference, and politically it was only looking at areas for savings and not at whether certain areas should be paid more if there are shortages.
I can see the case for pay being negotiated at the individual level or perhaps the organisation level for union workers, thus better matching supply with demand than the current inflexible bandings. Pay will go up in some places and down in others in a not entirely predictable way. But the policy as proposed was just a crap middle ground that helped no one.
Thanks for explaining this properly.
Truss’s problem is that she has approached this from “how do I save money” rather than “how do I devolve government” or even “how do I address crowding out” (assuming the latter truly exists).
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Private sector pay has increased over the years - public sector pay isn't much different from 2010 or really 2005...
2 friends of Mrs Eek have just joined at her place for an easy life prior to retirement. Both have gone from £70k+ private sector jobs to £35,000 max but only went there because the Mrs sold it to them...
Yes. But why planning officers in particular? As opposed to any other public sector position. Or is this just an example. Incidentally. I am awaiting my portable DBS for teaching come September. Am pitching for £200 per day in the northeast. Am not being told an outright no, shall we say.
Look at the private sector pay - £70k or so....
Public sector pays £40k max and that's to lead a team. That is probably a junior staff member in the private sector - hence everyone heads towards the private sector asap to earn more money.
And the work is probably way more interesting as well with little stress over 8 week deadlines...
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
Actually that completely is misrepresenting what the press release actually says.
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Essentially planning is just a complex system and not many people understand it. Anyone who understands it and can operate within it is in massive demand because of the extent of current development pressure. Its just supply and demand.
Ah. OK. I suppose anyone who does understand it, and how a local authority works, is an extremely valuable asset to private developers, too?
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
A regional minimum wage would go down like a lead balloon.
But the issue is rarely the wage - it's the lack of investment and a tendency in the UK to use cheap labour as a substitute for that investment until the firm goes bankrupt.
I agree, but wages in the “North” are not actually low enough to attract foreign investors who might marvel at the wage:skill ratio.
We have a kind of regional variant of Dutch disease, therefore, where the periphery’s wages are to some extent artificially high due to national pay settlements.
You'd think, at a minimum, these people would sit down and say 'how could this be negatively spun by our opponents or the press?' It doesnt take a genius to see that the words 'regional pay boards' will always, always, always equals 'fuck you, geordie', 'sod off scouse mouse', 'bore off brummie' etc etc etc Jesus, what a plonker
Give Truss her due, she folded on this in about half a day, or 1 decirashford. Johnson would have spent the rest of the week trying to hold on to the plan before giving up.
But the gracelessness and gaslighting in the announcement are very "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
Mr. Eek, apparently the first Alpine knew of Alonso's departure was when it was released to the press.
As Mr Sandpit already pointed out.
My point is that most F1 driver contracts seem to have a mid year commit or invalid clause. And I suspect mid-year meant July 31st / last pre break race.
Which means Alpine have been completely screwed by Alonso in more ways than one - and I suspect that's probably intentionally by Alonso for some perceived slight or other.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
You make a reasonable case for the value of local bargaining to fill vacancies, but you realise that the upshot of this will be a notable increase in the public sector wage bill? I'm all for that: I want adequately funded and staffed public services. I just wanted to check you were OK with the consequences too.
I very much doubt that. Unless there's huge swathes of roles going unfilled at the minute, in which case the bill should go up in order to fill them.
There are shortages in NHS staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in teaching staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in social work staff; these are frequently reported. There are shortages in care staff; these are frequently reported.
There are always 'shortages', that's part of the churn of the labour market. If there weren't, then young people entering the labour market wouldn't be able to be hired, since there'd be no roles available for them to fill.
'Shortages' and 'shortages' can be completely different things. 'Shortages' are not necessarily a reason to increase pay rates.
There are serious and substantial shortages in all the areas I identified, which have been frequently reported. The Government, like all Conservative Governments since time immemorial, refuses to believe that increasing wages will solve these problems in the public sector. Magically, wages are only an incentive in the private sector.
My random discovery today - 1 North West council is so short of planners they are looking for a £90,000 a year consultant to do the job...
I've published ads on here before.
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35. The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year? All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
Why is it planning officers in particular? What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
Private sector pay has increased over the years - public sector pay isn't much different from 2010 or really 2005...
2 friends of Mrs Eek have just joined at her place for an easy life prior to retirement. Both have gone from £70k+ private sector jobs to £35,000 max but only went there because the Mrs sold it to them...
Yes. But why planning officers in particular? As opposed to any other public sector position. Or is this just an example. Incidentally. I am awaiting my portable DBS for teaching come September. Am pitching for £200 per day in the northeast. Am not being told an outright no, shall we say.
Look at the private sector pay - £70k or so....
Public sector pays £40k max and that's to lead a team. That is probably a junior staff member in the private sector - hence everyone heads towards the private sector asap to earn more money.
And the work is probably way more interesting as well with little stress over 8 week deadlines...
Another example is engineering and technical staff. Most roles are just north of 32k with another 10k tied up in the pension (roughly). The equivalent in the private sector would be well over 50k. And you can easily get more by contracting.
£8b of savings looks to me like £350m on the side of a bus. The ingenuous focus their ire on the numbers, implicitly conceding the point about cutting diversity officers etc.
It'll be GPs, nurses, care workers, dustmen, street cleaners, policemen, firemen, ambulance workers, paramedics, teachers, teaching assistants etc which will need to go if those sort of savings are to be made. It is absurd.
There are shortages of all such people at the moment. We need to pay more to attract and retain them.
Those who these sorts of cuts will hurt most are Tory voters - the old. Good luck trying to use the money saved in a tax cut to pay for an ambulance to take you to an overcrowded hospital tens of miles away.
If you need to pay more to attract people in one locale or region then that would justify paying more to attract them in that locale or region. That's precisely why there should be localised pay rates.
Crowding out private sector investment in the regions by ensuring everyone talented does basic public sector work instead of investing in the private sector isn't a successful model that is working.
If there's one thing the Conservative Government doesn't do, it's pay more in the public sector when there's a need to do so to attract people. When has a Tory PM's first reaction to shortages in public sector staffing ever been to increase pay?
If you're going to treat public sector pay the same way as private sector pay, fine, but do so properly. A system that treats pay as a political football rather than as something set by the market has to offer something else instead to compensate.
@ydoethur has been talking about a teacher shortage, especially new teachers, and the government has just increased new teacher pay by more than other national pay rates are changing in response to that.
The problem is though if you're going with national pay rates it will always be far more politicised and sclerotic than it should be. A small business can be affected by local supply and demand and set the pay rate at an individual level but national pay scales are always going to be dominated more by political whims than supply and demand. Only once supply and demand starts affecting politics will it be responsive.
The more localised it gets, the more responsive it can be.
Um, academies are not subject to national pay rates - if they wish to pay more they can (in a way other schools can't)
Yes and no.
A lot of academies stick to the national rates, because it's a recruitment selling point. A lot of people put quite a bit of value on not having to negotiate their pay rise individually, even if it means they are paid less.
More significantly, the funding the school gets doesn't change, so the total budget is still limited. One of the things coming down the track is the gap between the teacher pay rise that was announced recently and the cash schools are getting.
Watch for who the next PM makes EdSec. It will be a rival they want to destroy...
All the more reason for localised, even individualised, pay rates.
If a school has eg a shortage of Maths teachers, but an abundance of applicants to be English teachers, then the logical thing to do would be to increase the pay offered to those qualified to teach maths while freezing the pay of those qualified to teach English.
Central bargaining is the worst possible system for filling vacancies as it leads to a lowest common denominator system where either some roles will be uncompetitive, or some roles will be paid too much and money wasted. Most likely, both at the same time.
My experience in the private sector has been that individually negotiated pay means you end up paying more to people who are good at negotiating pay. It doesn't lead to the nirvana of optimally allocating wages to where they are needed most.
Absolutely. Locally negotiated pay is terrible for ensuring the actual best people are the best paid.
Most people negotiate pay by moving to a new job..
Large chunks of the public sector still pay according to the years served, banding etc
Only for a few years - I don't think I've ever seen a payscale that has more than 5 or so bands within it...
Apologies for pedantry (this wouldn't be pb.com without it), but the Armed Forces still have many bandings in their payscales. To be fair, I only knew this due to having been in the RAF for 17 years and wondering if they had simplified the bandings (spoiler: they haven't)
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Too late - it has to be taken within 5 days of infection. And the NHS are not generous in handing it out. My 85 year old mum was told no.
you're in the highest risk group you've had a positive PCR or lateral flow test (reported via GOV.UK or 119) you've had coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms within the last 5 days, or 7 days if advised by a healthcare professional...
You'd think, at a minimum, these people would sit down and say 'how could this be negatively spun by our opponents or the press?' It doesnt take a genius to see that the words 'regional pay boards' will always, always, always equals 'fuck you, geordie', 'sod off scouse mouse', 'bore off brummie' etc etc etc Jesus, what a plonker
What amazes me she that she is saying anything at all.
I do note she has made a bunch of spending commitments *on top of* the tax cuts and I haven’t seen any credible way of to pay for it, so perhaps we are seeing some policy vulnerability.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
A regional minimum wage would go down like a lead balloon.
But the issue is rarely the wage - it's the lack of investment and a tendency in the UK to use cheap labour as a substitute for that investment until the firm goes bankrupt.
I agree, but wages in the “North” are not actually low enough to attract foreign investors who might marvel at the wage:skill ratio.
We have a kind of regional variant of Dutch disease, therefore, where the periphery’s wages are to some extent artificially high due to national pay settlements.
Why do we need low wages?
Nissan Sunderland is the most productive car plant in Europe in spite of local wages - we don't need low wages round here - the issue is elsewhere...
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Too late - it has to be taken within 5 days of infection. And the NHS are not generous in handing it out. My 85 year old mum was told no.
you're in the highest risk group you've had a positive PCR or lateral flow test (reported via GOV.UK or 119) you've had coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms within the last 5 days, or 7 days if advised by a healthcare professional...
Or you're a rancid old dementia patient in the USA with extremely low approval ratings.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
A regional minimum wage would go down like a lead balloon.
But the issue is rarely the wage - it's the lack of investment and a tendency in the UK to use cheap labour as a substitute for that investment until the firm goes bankrupt.
I agree, but wages in the “North” are not actually low enough to attract foreign investors who might marvel at the wage:skill ratio.
We have a kind of regional variant of Dutch disease, therefore, where the periphery’s wages are to some extent artificially high due to national pay settlements.
Why do we need low wages?
Nissan Sunderland is the most productive car plant in Europe in spite of local wages - we don't need low wages round here - the issue is elsewhere...
The point is there are perhaps two routes to “growth” in the “North”
The first is to deflate wages so that the place looks very cheap to invest. That’s politically very difficult and there are structural barriers to doing so in a unitary country like the UK.
The second is to provide infrastructure of various kinds, which should be much easier but costs money.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
It's not a sensible idea - unless you happen to be a shareholder...
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
That's why I said the transition begins. I've read and understood them, I just disagree with them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
PS I agree completely with Ratters that local would be better than regional and I said the same myself, which is why I called this a small step in the right direction.
Liz Truss has ensured that she'll have to spend much of the next general election campaign having to insist she will not be cutting the pay of teachers, nurses, doctors, policemen etc outside London and the SE, and so reducing their numbers even further. Piss poor politics
On a more pleasant note than the posts earlier I have been signed off by the physio today and expect the same from my hospital visit on Thursday. One leg is now normal, the other has about 6 months more exercise to be back to normal. I have a lot of catching up to do. The garden is a mess, all 2/3 acre of it. So much work.
I have racing driving lessons booked. I have a flight in a Pitts Special booked. I nearly bought a classic car, but got beaten by someone paying sight unseen and sending a trailer so ship it. Should have been more proactive. Gutted. Lots of stuff to do.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
That's why I said the transition begins. I've read and understood them, I just disagree with them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
If you want to level up you need to pay higher salaries to doctors, nurses, teachers, policemen, paramedics, ambulance drivers etc in areas where there is a shortage of them. That basically means pretty much everywhere.
On a more pleasant note than the posts earlier I have been signed off by the physio today and expect the same from my hospital visit on Thursday. One leg is now normal, the other had about 6 months more exercise to be back to normal. I have a lot of catching up to do. The garden is a mess, all 2/3 acre of it. So much work.
I have racing driving lessons booked. I have a flight in a Pitts Special booked. I nearly bought a classic car, but got beaten by someone paying sight unseen and sending a trailer so ship it. Should have been more proactive. Gutted.
That's good news. The legs I mean, not the classic car. Whatever ailed you, glad you're recovering!
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
That's why I said the transition begins. I've read and understood them, I just disagree with them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
PS I agree completely with Ratters that local would be better than regional and I said the same myself, which is why I called this a small step in the right direction.
You can't do it in the public sector for political reasons.
You can't do it in the private sector because both the minimum wage and the public sector wages preclude it.
Equally the issue isn't the wages - it's the lack of investment in productivity improvements because we as a whole are happy to take profits while Corporation Tax is low rather than invest money to increase productivity long term.
The more I think about it the more it seems most companies have scarily short term views and don't see themselves having long enough futures to warrant investing money in their futures.
As some of you will recall my wife and I, with our North Wales family, travelled to the North of Scotland to visit our family for the first time in three years and then our Welsh family, including three grandchildren and two dogs, hired a 10 berth cabin cruiser on the Caledonian canal for a few days
The re-union with our Scottish family was wonderful and maybe surprisingly for this forum was virtually politics free apart from some very harsh words directed towards Sturgeon, who really is not liked. Indeed, most of our Scottish relatives are ex labour and there could well be an opportunity for Anwar Sawar to gain some support for labour from this quarter
The time on the Caledonian canal was pure magic with no tv, social media, and little internet contact while the beauty of the canal was inspiring. We travelled from the Laggan Marina near Spean Bridge to Fort Augustus, then through the 5 locks into Loch Ness making our way in a slight breeze and gentle rocking up to Urquhart Castle, mooring a couple of times overnight before returning through Fort Augustus to the gentler and calmer waters of Loch Oich where we moored a couple of nights and the family enjoyed paddle boarding and swimming in the Loch. I know some have expressed an interest in this holiday and it comes highly recommended and after some initial instruction piloting the boat is not difficult and the lock keepers are most helpful
It was a wonderful time greatly enjoyed by all of us, but the day before we left both my wife and, I and our daughter (51), started feeling quite unwell and the 420-mile drive home to North Wales the day after was very difficult as we felt worse through the day. Our daughter and her family arrived home before us, and she tested positive for covid though she has been vaccinated and had it previously. As soon as we arrived home my wife and I both took a covid test which proved positive
This is our 6th day and we both feel really quite ill, and it certainly is not just a cold and is much more like flu with fatigue, shivering, loss of appetite and taste, achy bones, and lethargy. We both experience very runny noses and eyes and are taking paracetamol, together with lots of fluids including water, and just resting and sleeping on demand. We are so grateful we are up to date with our vaccines and just hope we recover soon
Last night was the fist time I have watched TV, apart from the wonderful Lionesses, and will comment in due course on the politics but the way I feel just now can the conservative party get on and appoint one of Truss and Sunak and start running the country
Sorry about the length of post
No need at all to apologise, Big_G. All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election. )
Surprisingly sitting at my pc is about the only thing I can do and in short bursts !!!!!
Sorry to hear you are unwell, Big G. The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Thank you and yes for both of us, and my wife says she has not felt this ill since she had Asian flu
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
Get well soon! My parents got Covid last week too, lots of rest, and ask your doctor if you can get a prescription for Paxlovid, which is available on NHS for vulnerable groups.
Too late - it has to be taken within 5 days of infection. And the NHS are not generous in handing it out. My 85 year old mum was told no.
you're in the highest risk group you've had a positive PCR or lateral flow test (reported via GOV.UK or 119) you've had coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms within the last 5 days, or 7 days if advised by a healthcare professional...
Or you're a rancid old dementia patient in the USA with extremely low approval ratings.
Actually it's probably easier to get it prescribed in the US - where it's also (for now) free.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/11/1097698090/3-ways-to-get-covid-pills-if-youve-just-tested-positive?t=1659442255437 ...During the winter omicron surge, pill supplies were limited, and many health care providers prescribed Paxlovid only to those who were most vulnerable, due to older age or serious underlying illnesses. Now, health conditions such as high cholesterol, depression, smoking-related lung disease, obesity, not being fully vaccinated or boosted – all factors that increase a person's risk for severe COVID outcomes – might qualify a recently infected COVID patient for a course of Paxlovid. "If someone wants it, and is eligible for it, they should be able to access it," Tien says....
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
That's why I said the transition begins. I've read and understood them, I just disagree with them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
If you want to level up you need to pay higher salaries to doctors, nurses, teachers, policemen, paramedics, ambulance drivers etc in areas where there is a shortage of them. That basically means pretty much everywhere.
In a fully levelled-up utopia, everyone would be a well-paid public sector worker delivering services to each other.
It’s possible that there is a problem in some areas with crowding out.
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
And so the transition from "what a stupid idea" to "a sensible idea, but not politically acceptable" begins.
I am not saying it’s a sensible idea at all. Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
That's why I said the transition begins. I've read and understood them, I just disagree with them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
If you want to level up you need to pay higher salaries to doctors, nurses, teachers, policemen, paramedics, ambulance drivers etc in areas where there is a shortage of them. That basically means pretty much everywhere.
On a more pleasant note than the posts earlier I have been signed off by the physio today and expect the same from my hospital visit on Thursday. One leg is now normal, the other has about 6 months more exercise to be back to normal. I have a lot of catching up to do. The garden is a mess, all 2/3 acre of it. So much work.
I have racing driving lessons booked. I have a flight in a Pitts Special booked. I nearly bought a classic car, but got beaten by someone paying sight unseen and sending a trailer so ship it. Should have been more proactive. Gutted. Lots of stuff to do.
On a more pleasant note than the posts earlier I have been signed off by the physio today and expect the same from my hospital visit on Thursday. One leg is now normal, the other has about 6 months more exercise to be back to normal. I have a lot of catching up to do. The garden is a mess, all 2/3 acre of it. So much work.
I have racing driving lessons booked. I have a flight in a Pitts Special booked. I nearly bought a classic car, but got beaten by someone paying sight unseen and sending a trailer so ship it. Should have been more proactive. Gutted. Lots of stuff to do.
Good news that your recovery appears to be nearly complete 😊
Comments
🔴Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak have both committed to hosting a reception for the victorious Lionesses at No 10 if they are chosen to be the next prime minister
Great, what about introducing more football pitches after you cut them
All the best for a full recovery for you and your family.
I take your being able to post at such length as a positive sign.
(And didn't realise you had sufficient relatives to swing a Scottish election.
Apparently, Alpine have the right of first call. Although some say he may go to McLaren:
https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1554425994244669440
Stop blaming journalists - reporting what a press release says isn’t “wilful misrepresentation”
So this u-turn has wiped out £8.8bn in savings. Where are these going to come from now?
An economic policy that can’t be paid for isn’t very Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would be livid
Well said
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/jeremy-corbyn-criticises-the-uk-for-prolonging-the-war-in-ukraine/ar-AA10dQjO?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=f9edae357d0f4b2b9bc16ec8b58066e3
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-11071917/Gary-Lineker-explains-deleted-England-Lionesses-bra-none-tweet.html
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1554397936192307201
Mike's not planning any holidays anytime soon, is he ?
The last time I had Covid it took about two weeks to work through and for me to recover full strength.
Is this your first time?
Boris Johnson is riddled with flaws and both his potential successors are not stellar, but the fact we came so close to having a hard left fool like him in charge remains deeply alarming.
With my sense of humour….
Glad you had nice holijogs
The press release specifically says that it would only apply to new contract and it also specifically says "could" when associated with £8.8bn not "would". Misrepresenting things that use the word "could" is one of the most common ways to misrepresent things in the media.
Good to see the press release also mentions the crowding out issue I immediately mentioned, without having read that press release.
A very sensible policy killed off by being cackhandled and misrepresented. What a shame. 👎
A big tranche of undecideds just moved that bit nearer to voting for Rishi.
Fortunately we can rest as long as necessary and the family can leave messages in our porch until we recover
£58 per hour for a bog standard planning officers, and that is outside of IR35.
The advertised day rates for interim managers are currently £500-£650 per day. Thats what, £140k+ per year?
All over the country.
These are jobs that they try and recruit permanent staff at £30 - £50k per year, the type of area where Liz Truss thought regional pay boards should be cutting pay, for new entrants.
In the meantime you have all the hustings to enjoy, most (all?) of them seem to be streamed.
What's special that makes it so difficult to recruit?
If you want to save money - look at increasing productivity rather than paying people less - that will allow you to pay fewer staff the same or more....
However it requires upfront investment so it isn't going to happen because the money isn't there to pay upfront for the work required.
Cutting out the words "up to" is no better than cutting out the word "could".
No wonder it had your enthusiastic support.
And the NHS are not generous in handing it out. My 85 year old mum was told no.
Its funny how many people claim in general terms to believe in localism and that things are too controlled at Whitehall level, but actually propose some genuine localism and flexibility and people inevitably run away in terror.
You've said yourself many times before how the UK is too centralised. Well, if you want to address that, this is where to start.
2 friends of Mrs Eek have just joined at her place for an easy life prior to retirement. Both have gone from £70k+ private sector jobs to £35,000 max but only went there because the Mrs sold it to them...
Real wages (public and private) outside the the SE and Scotland probably need to fall to East European levels if they are to reflect actual productivity add.
Good luck selling it on the doorstep.
MMTnomics is mainstream now, why even bother with these meaningless figures?
I've been able to go back to knit group in Edinburgh a couple of times now, and the mood there is not to mention Boris while people are eating, and that the Tories are doing Sturgeon's job of arguing for Independence every time they say or do anything.
Not sure anyone knows Sarwar's name.
Plus I’m quite fond of Germans.
Edit - and you can't really change the situation by training people up. It takes years, and people mostly just flake out and typically look out for other more dynamic/positive jobs. The more complicated the government make the planning system (always under the guise of 'simplification'), the more these problems are exacerbated.
I can see the case for pay being negotiated at the individual level or perhaps the organisation level for union workers, thus better matching supply with demand than the current inflexible bandings. Pay will go up in some places and down in others in a not entirely predictable way. But the policy as proposed was just a crap middle ground that helped no one.
Or is this just an example.
Incidentally. I am awaiting my portable DBS for teaching come September.
Am pitching for £200 per day in the northeast. Am not being told an outright no, shall we say.
But the issue is rarely the wage - it's the lack of investment and a tendency in the UK to use cheap labour as a substitute for that investment until the firm goes bankrupt.
Truss’s problem is that she has approached this from “how do I save money” rather than “how do I devolve government” or even “how do I address crowding out” (assuming the latter truly exists).
Public sector pays £40k max and that's to lead a team. That is probably a junior staff member in the private sector - hence everyone heads towards the private sector asap to earn more money.
And the work is probably way more interesting as well with little stress over 8 week deadlines...
Edit. I see @eek has covered that.
We have a kind of regional variant of Dutch disease, therefore, where the periphery’s wages are to some extent artificially high due to national pay settlements.
It doesnt take a genius to see that the words 'regional pay boards' will always, always, always equals 'fuck you, geordie', 'sod off scouse mouse', 'bore off brummie' etc etc etc
Jesus, what a plonker
But the gracelessness and gaslighting in the announcement are very "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
My point is that most F1 driver contracts seem to have a mid year commit or invalid clause. And I suspect mid-year meant July 31st / last pre break race.
Which means Alpine have been completely screwed by Alonso in more ways than one - and I suspect that's probably intentionally by Alonso for some perceived slight or other.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092246/AFPRB_2022_Accessible.pdf
As of this year, the record is for OF3 (Sqn Ldr/Major/Lt Cdr) with 13 bandings.
(OF2, OF4 and OF5 have 8 each)
The deterrent impact of the Rwanda policy is really starting to bite, isn't it?
...You may be eligible for Paxlovid if all these apply:
you're in the highest risk group
you've had a positive PCR or lateral flow test (reported via GOV.UK or 119)
you've had coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms within the last 5 days, or 7 days if advised by a healthcare professional...
I do note she has made a bunch of spending commitments *on top of* the tax cuts and I haven’t seen any credible way of to pay for it, so perhaps we are seeing some policy vulnerability.
Nissan Sunderland is the most productive car plant in Europe in spite of local wages - we don't need low wages round here - the issue is elsewhere...
The first is to deflate wages so that the place looks very cheap to invest. That’s politically very difficult and there are structural barriers to doing so in a unitary country like the UK.
The second is to provide infrastructure of various kinds, which should be much easier but costs money.
Read mine and eek’s and ratter’s posts.
Read them and understand them.
But I've said what I have to say and nothing new to add, so not much point in adding more.
This is a good idea, but not politic to be introduced. What a shame. Its the sort of thing that would be better off being introduced by a new government at the start of a Parliament so it has time to bed in and work, it will never win an election. A shame Osborne flunked this issue.
PS I agree completely with Ratters that local would be better than regional and I said the same myself, which is why I called this a small step in the right direction.
Wonder what their day rate is?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/02/fee-rise-komodo-dragons-triggers-strike-indonesia-tourism-workers
I have racing driving lessons booked. I have a flight in a Pitts Special booked. I nearly bought a classic car, but got beaten by someone paying sight unseen and sending a trailer so ship it. Should have been more proactive. Gutted. Lots of stuff to do.
You can't do it in the private sector because both the minimum wage and the public sector wages preclude it.
Equally the issue isn't the wages - it's the lack of investment in productivity improvements because we as a whole are happy to take profits while Corporation Tax is low rather than invest money to increase productivity long term.
The more I think about it the more it seems most companies have scarily short term views and don't see themselves having long enough futures to warrant investing money in their futures.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/11/1097698090/3-ways-to-get-covid-pills-if-youve-just-tested-positive?t=1659442255437
...During the winter omicron surge, pill supplies were limited, and many health care providers prescribed Paxlovid only to those who were most vulnerable, due to older age or serious underlying illnesses. Now, health conditions such as high cholesterol, depression, smoking-related lung disease, obesity, not being fully vaccinated or boosted – all factors that increase a person's risk for severe COVID outcomes – might qualify a recently infected COVID patient for a course of Paxlovid. "If someone wants it, and is eligible for it, they should be able to access it," Tien says....
That's just the market.
What was the classic you missed?