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Poll of Tory councilors has Truss just 2% ahead – politicalbetting.com

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  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271

    These videos of Russians committing serious war crimes against Ukrainian POWs are interesting. (Note I do not add 'allegedly' to this.) What do the Russians hope to gain from such treatment and the release of the videos?

    If they are hoping that it will break the will of the Ukrainian people, I fear it will have exactly the opposite effect. Ukrainians will want to fight the evil, and their fighters will be less likely to surrender. It will make countries slightly less likely to support Russia. It will strengthen the support of Ukraine amongst civilised nations.

    My takeaway from this (and the Russian Embassy in the UK's tweet yesterday) is that Russia don't care. Godwinning myself, they are like Nazi Germany. They believe they have right on their side, and if they are right, they can do anything.

    Which is why they need to lose - however you define 'lose'...

    It's an expression of impunity. They're sending a clear message to the West that they think they can do anything and we won't do anything to stop them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    Source for that claim?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    England need to bring on Russo and take off White .
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,450

    These videos of Russians committing serious war crimes against Ukrainian POWs are interesting. (Note I do not add 'allegedly' to this.) What do the Russians hope to gain from such treatment and the release of the videos?

    If they are hoping that it will break the will of the Ukrainian people, I fear it will have exactly the opposite effect. Ukrainians will want to fight the evil, and their fighters will be less likely to surrender. It will make countries slightly less likely to support Russia. It will strengthen the support of Ukraine amongst civilised nations.

    My takeaway from this (and the Russian Embassy in the UK's tweet yesterday) is that Russia don't care. Godwinning myself, they are like Nazi Germany. They believe they have right on their side, and if they are right, they can do anything.

    Which is why they need to lose - however you define 'lose'...

    It's an expression of impunity. They're sending a clear message to the West that they think they can do anything and we won't do anything to stop them.
    Or it’s an absolute sadist in a war situation whose understanding of right and wrong has gone out of the window and hasn’t got the brains to not put his personal evil onto social media.

    I’m sure if during other wars crazed violent men who did things like Mai Lai, cutting off ears as trophies etc would have filmed it and put it online. Think about Abu Graib which, whilst nowhere near as bad, was idiots putting grim stuff they’ve done on camera.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Rumours of 'events' happening on the Serbia/Kosovo border...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305

    Rumours of 'events' happening on the Serbia/Kosovo border...

    Oh good. We urgently needed more violence and disorder. A renewal of the Yugoslavian death spiral is just the ticket.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    This has penalties written all over it. And we know how how that ends.

    This referee will give Germany a penalty soon enough I fear.
    Time to end support for Ukraine
    in fairness although England have suffered the weight of the errors they have by no means been all one way. Disappointing referee for a game of this importance. Suspect her nationality might have something to do with it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    England need to substitute Stanway whilst they still can.
  • Officiating has been awful for this game.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    Rumours of 'events' happening on the Serbia/Kosovo border...

    Is this the start of the "de-Nazification" of the Balkans by people who look and smell like ...er...Nazis?
  • kinabalu said:

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
    Hardly unnecessary. The left in this country is obsessed with Palestine, hating the West etc

    Its what Corbyn has done for forty years before he became leader, so no shock it continued afterwards.

    Entirely necessary too as if he hadn't shown his spots then it would have come out another time, better before the election than afterwards.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    What a pass.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    England have a soccer goal.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    England! Finally!
  • What a goal! What a perfect break to pull that off! ⚽
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,287
    ydoethur said:

    These videos of Russians committing serious war crimes against Ukrainian POWs are interesting. (Note I do not add 'allegedly' to this.) What do the Russians hope to gain from such treatment and the release of the videos?

    If they are hoping that it will break the will of the Ukrainian people, I fear it will have exactly the opposite effect. Ukrainians will want to fight the evil, and their fighters will be less likely to surrender. It will make countries slightly less likely to support Russia. It will strengthen the support of Ukraine amongst civilised nations.

    My takeaway from this (and the Russian Embassy in the UK's tweet yesterday) is that Russia don't care. Godwinning myself, they are like Nazi Germany. They believe they have right on their side, and if they are right, they can do anything.

    Which is why they need to lose - however you define 'lose'...

    Not appropriate for a Godwin.

    The Nazis went to enormous lengths to cover up their crimes.

    Goebbels would never have been so dumb as to release these videos. He would have had videos of happy Ukrainians, glad to be freed of their hated overlords, living in model camps where conditions were not luxurious but were comfortable.

    As for the videos, I don't think it's to scare the Ukrainians, I think it's to try and guilt trip the west. 'You made them fight and now look what's happened!'

    Bear in mind,* the Russian government really *is* this stupid. They are third rate drunks, liars, thieves and charlatans who live a live of extraordinary luxury totally divorced from reality, to the extent they don't relate to the world itself any more. They only fear losing their wealth and power, why should they not assume others think the same way?

    *No pun intended, for once.
    "They are third rate drunks, liars, thieves and charlatans who live a live of extraordinary luxury totally divorced from reality, to the extent they don't relate to the world itself any more".

    You mean even worse than the DFE or OFSTED?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    Is it a good match?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    kinabalu said:

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
    Hardly unnecessary. The left in this country is obsessed with Palestine, hating the West etc

    Its what Corbyn has done for forty years before he became leader, so no shock it continued afterwards.

    Entirely necessary too as if he hadn't shown his spots then it would have come out another time, better before the election than afterwards.
    When you say left, are you referring to all us non-Conservatives or simply Momentum types?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    These videos of Russians committing serious war crimes against Ukrainian POWs are interesting. (Note I do not add 'allegedly' to this.) What do the Russians hope to gain from such treatment and the release of the videos?

    If they are hoping that it will break the will of the Ukrainian people, I fear it will have exactly the opposite effect. Ukrainians will want to fight the evil, and their fighters will be less likely to surrender. It will make countries slightly less likely to support Russia. It will strengthen the support of Ukraine amongst civilised nations.

    My takeaway from this (and the Russian Embassy in the UK's tweet yesterday) is that Russia don't care. Godwinning myself, they are like Nazi Germany. They believe they have right on their side, and if they are right, they can do anything.

    Which is why they need to lose - however you define 'lose'...

    Not appropriate for a Godwin.

    The Nazis went to enormous lengths to cover up their crimes.

    Goebbels would never have been so dumb as to release these videos. He would have had videos of happy Ukrainians, glad to be freed of their hated overlords, living in model camps where conditions were not luxurious but were comfortable.

    As for the videos, I don't think it's to scare the Ukrainians, I think it's to try and guilt trip the west. 'You made them fight and now look what's happened!'

    Bear in mind,* the Russian government really *is* this stupid. They are third rate drunks, liars, thieves and charlatans who live a live of extraordinary luxury totally divorced from reality, to the extent they don't relate to the world itself any more. They only fear losing their wealth and power, why should they not assume others think the same way?

    *No pun intended, for once.
    "They are third rate drunks, liars, thieves and charlatans who live a live of extraordinary luxury totally divorced from reality, to the extent they don't relate to the world itself any more".

    You mean even worse than the DFE or OFSTED?
    Well...possibly it's about even.

    No, better not say that. Putin wouldn't like the comparison and I don't want his minions to get lost while admiring the spires of Lichfield Cathedral.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    TOPPING said:

    Is it a good match?

    It's a lot better now!
  • kinabalu said:

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
    Hardly unnecessary. The left in this country is obsessed with Palestine, hating the West etc

    Its what Corbyn has done for forty years before he became leader, so no shock it continued afterwards.

    Entirely necessary too as if he hadn't shown his spots then it would have come out another time, better before the election than afterwards.
    When you say left, are you referring to all us non-Conservatives or simply Momentum types?
    The far left, Momentum/Socialist Worker etc types.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658
    The Irish President's wife has just taken a pro Kremlin position and said Ukraine should agree to a ceasefire with Russia. It has been published on the Irish President's website, contrary to the neutrality of the office

    https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-president-wife-sabina-higgins-russia-ukraine-peace-letter/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,384
    Kicking off in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar.
    All we need.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058
    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541
    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    HYUFD said:

    The Irish President's wife has just taken a pro Kremlin position and said Ukraine should agree to a ceasefire with Russia. It has been published on the Irish President's website, contrary to the neutrality of the office

    https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-president-wife-sabina-higgins-russia-ukraine-peace-letter/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter

    disgraceful.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,567
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Irish President's wife has just taken a pro Kremlin position and said Ukraine should agree to a ceasefire with Russia. It has been published on the Irish President's website, contrary to the neutrality of the office

    https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-president-wife-sabina-higgins-russia-ukraine-peace-letter/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter

    disgraceful.
    Ireland freeride off NATO/RAF QRA/RN subs and have the cheek to be a tax haven.

    It's a credible case for Scottish Independence, tbh.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Irish President's wife has just taken a pro Kremlin position and said Ukraine should agree to a ceasefire with Russia. It has been published on the Irish President's website, contrary to the neutrality of the office

    https://www.politico.eu/article/irish-president-wife-sabina-higgins-russia-ukraine-peace-letter/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter

    The Ukraine conflict, like the vaccines debacle, is another thank f**k that Brexit has happened event.

    The way some French, Germans and Irish politicians are willing to screw over the Ukrainians, and Eastern Europeans, is to quote our next Prime Minister a disgrace.

    If there's a lesson from this conflict it should be that any notions of EU unified defence is a terrible, terrible idea and that NATO is far better than the EU. The Eastern Europeans are better working with us in NATO than Germany etc in the EU.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,985
    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    There was an article yesterday (Times or NYT?) that says Putin now sees this as almost a world war. Existential combat: Russia v The West

    Expanding the war to the Balkans would fit that thesis
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    kinabalu said:

    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.

    Used to watch it a lot, did you?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058

    kinabalu said:

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
    Hardly unnecessary. The left in this country is obsessed with Palestine, hating the West etc

    Its what Corbyn has done for forty years before he became leader, so no shock it continued afterwards.

    Entirely necessary too as if he hadn't shown his spots then it would have come out another time, better before the election than afterwards.
    The left has made some good calls on foreign policy matters over the years because they aren't befuddled by a jingoistic superiority complex. But this wasn't one of them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ping said:

    The greatest energy arbitrage of all times: US Gulf coast ➡️ NW Europe. 200mUSD gain or more per trip… which is basically the price of the ship. Insane!

    https://twitter.com/MegaWattXinfo/status/1553358059895914497/photo/1

    It's easy (well, relatively) to solve the world's energy problems: we just need lots of new LNG vessels.
    Is it technically unfeasible to build a pipeline from the US>NW Europe?
    good question...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,450
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    There was an article yesterday (Times or NYT?) that says Putin now sees this as almost a world war. Existential combat: Russia v The West

    Expanding the war to the Balkans would fit that thesis
    I seem to remember some other war going global down there in the past….

    I noticed that Bosnia isn’t a NATO country so wonder if they are going to try it on to test whether NATO will help a non-NATO country directly?

    Would be wise for the EU and US to shift as many troops down there asap to try and deter Serbian stupidity.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    There seems to be a black player on the pitch now. How did that happen.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Corbyn was going to condemn Russia in the Commons but he allowed Seumus to overrule him.

    Such a stupid decision that McDonnell and his spin doctor threw objects across a room in disgust, “he’s lost us the fucking election!”

    It was an own goal yes. Not a scrappy one either but an overhead bicycle kick from the edge of the box. I remember being quite pissed off about it at the time. I could feel about half a million votes slipping way. And so unnecessary. It's hard enough to get a fair hearing for the left in this country without that sort of "all pain no gain" mistake.
    Hardly unnecessary. The left in this country is obsessed with Palestine, hating the West etc

    Its what Corbyn has done for forty years before he became leader, so no shock it continued afterwards.

    Entirely necessary too as if he hadn't shown his spots then it would have come out another time, better before the election than afterwards.
    The left has made some good calls on foreign policy matters over the years because they aren't befuddled by a jingoistic superiority complex. But this wasn't one of them.
    No, they're befuddled by a jingoistic inferiority complex. They take the opposing side in any conflict right or wrong.

    They've got no clear mind or rationality, they're just reflexively anti-everything western.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,384
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    There was an article yesterday (Times or NYT?) that says Putin now sees this as almost a world war. Existential combat: Russia v The West

    Expanding the war to the Balkans would fit that thesis
    Maybe the torture video wasn't meant for Ukrainian consumption.
    But further afield?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,772

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
    They all promised it. None of them meant it. In every case it was to gain or keep votes.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    What is it with these right-wing conservatives??
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    There was an article yesterday (Times or NYT?) that says Putin now sees this as almost a world war. Existential combat: Russia v The West

    Expanding the war to the Balkans would fit that thesis
    Tomorrow will be an interesting day in the Balkans. I’d guess if this does kick off like some on Twitter think then that ends Serbia’s accession talks to the EU.
  • kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
    They all promised it. None of them meant it. In every case it was to gain or keep votes.
    That was the error of judgement. The smart judgement would have been to have held it sooner.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    Walsh is something else. Her passing is absolutely immense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,985
    Germany deserve this. And their girls are hotter, TBH
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    Oh no! Germany equalise with 11 minutes to go!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    A soccer goal for the Germans as Englands women show the same steel at the back as englands men when defending a lead.
  • Disappointing.

    Germany deserve the equaliser to be fair.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,772

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
    They all promised it. None of them meant it. In every case it was to gain or keep votes.
    That was the error of judgement. The smart judgement would have been to have held it sooner.
    Yep, but I guess it is human nature to avoid it and hope it goes away.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,567
    edited July 2022
    Absolutely no closing down there.

    Great finish though
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
    They all promised it. None of them meant it. In every case it was to gain or keep votes.
    That was the error of judgement. The smart judgement would have been to have held it sooner.
    Yep, but I guess it is human nature to avoid it and hope it goes away.
    You see the same mistake being made today with the IndyRef2 being denied.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208


    Ivana Trump buried on her ex-husband's golf course so he can avoid paying tax on it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/EBHarrington/status/1553533320469905409
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    The Leave Campaign admitted they used lies and software profiling to ensure a win, so we left on false premises. How is that good for the country?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    bugger.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,908
    TOPPING said:

    There seems to be a black player on the pitch now. How did that happen.

    At least one player to blame when the penalties go pear shaped.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,567
    FF43 said:



    Ivana Trump buried on her ex-husband's golf course so he can avoid paying tax on it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/EBHarrington/status/1553533320469905409

    I almost admire it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    Andy_JS said:

    bugger.

    In the voice of Unlucky Alf.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,482

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    Blame Clegg for Cameron not being allowed to when he would have won it - prevented by the Coalition Agreement. Probably up to about 2013, hold the Referendum and we are still in the EU.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,772
    Leon said:

    Germany deserve this. And their girls are hotter, TBH

    You are sex obsessed
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,985

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    The Leave Campaign admitted they used lies and software profiling to ensure a win, so we left on false premises. How is that good for the country?
    We joined "the EU" on false promises

    "There will be no essential loss of sovereignty"

    It is therefore fitting that we left the same way
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    Andy_JS said:

    bugger.

    Very good goal in fairness.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,073

    carnforth said:

    Serbian MP for the ruling SNS (Right wing | Serbian Conservatives), Vladimir Djukanovic: "Everything seems to me that Serbia will be forced to begin the denazification of the Balkans.“

    What is it with these right-wing conservatives??
    It is a polite way to say "Fascist". Unfortunately Serbia still has plenty of these.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058
    edited July 2022
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.

    Used to watch it a lot, did you?
    Very much not. But I did used to catch a bit now and again and it was a case of "oh dear".

    Germany equalize as I type! Oh god it can't be a 1-1 draw then pens, can it?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Serbian army spotted in Gazivoda bordering Kosovo.

    This doesn't look good, please. Inform rest of former yugo followers.

    It looks like Serbia is trying to annex Kosovo.


    https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1553796916948963335
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,908
    edited July 2022
    FF43 said:



    Ivana Trump buried on her ex-husband's golf course so he can avoid paying tax on it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/EBHarrington/status/1553533320469905409

    I read that thread last night and the gist seemed to be that it was her kids that would have okayed this. They're their father's wee boys and girl alright.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    I more blame him for not winning it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    These girls are a bit dirty, aren’t they?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,316
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    I more blame him for not winning it.
    Quite. Such a negative campaigne.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,382



    I'd argue we reacted very well to the initial Salisbury event: we gathered evidence, saw where it led, and convinced loads of countries to put sanctions on Russia. You could argue those sanctions could (and should) have been stronger, but there are allegations that Russia has been topping people around the world in similar manners: and we were the only major country to complain about it. And we had to take the rest of the civilised world with us.

    It's a shame that Corbyn and many Labour figures at the time were so (ahem) hesitant to apportion blame.

    Who were the many? And "hesitant" doesn't begin to explain Corbyn's Soviet- loving treason.
    To be fair, Corbyn said he wanted to examine the evidence before commenting. He was given a briefing by MI5, said he was convinced, and supported sanctions against Russia in retaliation. One can argue that the case was obvious and he shouldn't have needed convincing, but there's something to be said for a judicious approach, as history is littered with "obvious" cases which proved to be otherwise. Politically it's dangerous, though, as these days you're expected to have an instant view on anything, and caution is taken as hostility (or even, as Mex would have it, treason).
    He wanted to delay and obfuscate. Just as he did in February. He's so convinced that *we* are the bad guys, he finds it almost impossible to blame others.

    And need I remind you of your 'poke' comment at the beginning of this?
    On this topic, I'd highly recommend Fiona Hill's book, Mr Putin Operative in the Kremlin.
    Hill is regarded as a leading expert on Putin, she was an advisor to Trump.
    It paints an excellent portrait of Putin.
    It suggests that he lives in a different reality to what we know and tries to paint a picture of what this reality might be.
    Having read it you can see that there were western policy errors in the 2000s, all these things that we didn't pay much attention to at the time (Kosovo, Georgia etc) along with NATO expansion made Putin basically think that the US and UK were planning to overthrow him, and everything else was just deception.
    That is a bit of a crude and simplified summary but there is a lot in it.
    There is also quite a bit on the history of Ukraine from the Russian point of view and which I wasn't aware of; ie prior to 2014 the government briefly removed Russian from the list of official languages; the claim that Russia is intervening to protect minority rights clearly has some historic basis to it.

    One conclusion of the book is that, once he has started something, Putin will keep fighting until he either wins or is removed; he can't lose.
    The book was written around 2015. I think this is behind the idea we keep hearing from various western sources that Putin needs an 'off ramp'.
    You can also see another problem, which is that he has started this Eurasian nationalism thing and is obviously struggling to control it.
    Insightful comments on Dugin, who is dismissed as a pseudo intellectual and basically a tool.

    What happens if and when Putin goes is an interesting question.
    One thing about the book is that it definetly gives Putin a lot of agency. Hill clearly regards him as being the mastermind behind the operation, and it talks of him in terms of being a CEO of Russia Inc, with all patronage going through him.

    I don't quite know what the answer is to the current situation in Ukraine after reading the book, but definetly there are no simple ones when it comes to dealing with Russia.



  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    In other news: I've just watched the Formula W race from Hungary. Jamie Chadwick's seven-win streak has ended, when she could only make her way up to second from fifth on the grid. This after winning the first two seasons.

    Yet she could not find a drive in another formula this year, so she had to return to Formula W. You can either see this as a failure of Formula W (not being able to feed good drivers up into other formula) or inherent sexism in motor racing and the sponsorships.

    Also, one to watch: Juju Noda. I like her style.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325

    Serbian army spotted in Gazivoda bordering Kosovo.

    This doesn't look good, please. Inform rest of former yugo followers.

    It looks like Serbia is trying to annex Kosovo.


    https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1553796916948963335

    President Vucic will deliver an emergency address to his nation later on the critical situation.

    https://twitter.com/danbardak/status/1553797977453494274?s=21&t=MAu52WMgs7STblU_-XGioA
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    edited July 2022
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.

    Used to watch it a lot, did you?
    Very much not. But I did used to catch a bit now and again and it was a case of "oh dear".

    Germany equalize as I type! Oh god it can't be a 1-1 draw then pens, can it?
    You did not used to "catch a bit now and again". No one did.

    There are no right on credentials that you won't try to say you have, are there.

    I get it but no need to lie; you are amongst friends on PB.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,985

    Serbian army spotted in Gazivoda bordering Kosovo.

    This doesn't look good, please. Inform rest of former yugo followers.

    It looks like Serbia is trying to annex Kosovo.


    https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1553796916948963335

    Everyone under the thread says that is actually Kosovan special forces. They have humvees

    Fake news?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    tlg86 said:

    These girls are a bit dirty, aren’t they?

    Paging @Leon paging @Leon
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Germany deserve this. And their girls are hotter, TBH

    You are sex obsessed
    They look OK :blush:
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,325
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Serbian army spotted in Gazivoda bordering Kosovo.

    This doesn't look good, please. Inform rest of former yugo followers.

    It looks like Serbia is trying to annex Kosovo.


    https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1553796916948963335

    Everyone under the thread says that is actually Kosovan special forces. They have humvees

    Fake news?
    It doesn’t seem to be fake news about the Serb presidential address this evening.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
    Where interesting means accurate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    The wrong side won, and so they blame Cameron.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    Blame Clegg for Cameron not being allowed to when he would have won it - prevented by the Coalition Agreement. Probably up to about 2013, hold the Referendum and we are still in the EU.
    There is lots of blame to go around. Including myself in a teensy weensy way.

    I still vacillate over whether Brexit was right or wrong. But I've zero doubt it could have been handled better. Johnson is largely responsible for that, and for much of the mistrust there is between the EU and us.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,316
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.

    Used to watch it a lot, did you?
    Very much not. But I did used to catch a bit now and again and it was a case of "oh dear".

    Germany equalize as I type! Oh god it can't be a 1-1 draw then pens, can it?
    You did not used to "catch a bit now and again". No one did.

    There are no right on credentials that you won't try to say you have, are there.

    I get it but no need to lie; you are amongst friends on PB.
    Women’s football has been on tv for years so it’s quite possible to have seen the odd bit here and there. Women’s fa cup final for a long time, and recent international tournaments. I agree with @kinabalu on this - it is hugely better than it was. Full time professional players dose that. See also rugby union in the nineties.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,985
    This certainly doesn't look good


    🇷🇸The Kosovo army plans to attack the northern part of Serbia at midnight - Vučić.

    “I think that we have never been in a more difficult situation than today. Why did I say this? The Pristina regime is trying, presenting itself as a victim, to use the moods in the world,”

    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1553797090400247809?s=20&t=7rkIwDqJfo7amIaU8g6waA


    A casus belli for Serbia to hit back
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
    Where interesting means accurate.

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
    Where interesting means accurate.
    I suspect you idea of "accurate" is a country mile away from mine!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,912
    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was right to tell his party to "stop banging on about Europe" but wrong to have the referendum on a simple In or Out basis. 'Out' should have been forced to define what that meant, if they had the result would have been different.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    EXTRA TIME!
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
    Where interesting means accurate.

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    Well that's an interesting interpretation of history.
    Where interesting means accurate.
    I suspect you idea of "accurate" is a country mile away from mine!
    Do you think if Blair hadn't lied and gone back on his pledge of holding a referendum then things would have played out the same?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    tlg86 said:

    These girls are a bit dirty, aren’t they?

    They seem to go down fairly easily fo sho.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842
    edited July 2022

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Haven't watched women's football for years and I'm certainly struck by how much it's improved.

    Used to watch it a lot, did you?
    Very much not. But I did used to catch a bit now and again and it was a case of "oh dear".

    Germany equalize as I type! Oh god it can't be a 1-1 draw then pens, can it?
    You did not used to "catch a bit now and again". No one did.

    There are no right on credentials that you won't try to say you have, are there.

    I get it but no need to lie; you are amongst friends on PB.
    Women’s football has been on tv for years so it’s quite possible to have seen the odd bit here and there. Women’s fa cup final for a long time, and recent international tournaments. I agree with @kinabalu on this - it is hugely better than it was. Full time professional players dose that. See also rugby union in the nineties.
    Nah he's just making it up. Trust me.
  • I believe Brexit could go well.

    But not with the Tories in Government, they've had their chance.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,384
    Leon said:

    This certainly doesn't look good


    🇷🇸The Kosovo army plans to attack the northern part of Serbia at midnight - Vučić.

    “I think that we have never been in a more difficult situation than today. Why did I say this? The Pristina regime is trying, presenting itself as a victim, to use the moods in the world,”

    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1553797090400247809?s=20&t=7rkIwDqJfo7amIaU8g6waA


    A casus belli for Serbia to hit back

    There are reports of gunfire at multiple border crossings.
    Sirens going off all over Kosovo.
    If true, that's just bloody great. Good job we've a PM on the ball, and his FS with nowt else much on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    I believe that was what I said in my post? (The one that started with "he was forced to...")
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058
    Leon said:

    Germany deserve this. And their girls are hotter, TBH

    Our resident Patriot speaks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    It was not an error of judgement, it was absolutely essential.

    If it was an error of judgement why did both Nick Clegg and Tony Blair promise referendums?
    They all promised it. None of them meant it. In every case it was to gain or keep votes.
    That was the error of judgement. The smart judgement would have been to have held it sooner.
    Yep, but I guess it is human nature to avoid it and hope it goes away.
    You see the same mistake being made today with the IndyRef2 being denied.
    The EU referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not just 7 years after. Even the second Quebec referendum was a full 15 years after the first in 1980
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Just a view: either Cameron or Miliband would be better than Truss or Sunak.

    The Conservative Party have not served us well since 2015. Their EU obsession has utterly harmed the country.

    Cameron was the one who gave them the referendum in the first place. A monumental error of judgement and damage to this country purely to try to resolve internal Tory party discipline.
    He was forced to by the party. If he had not, he would have been chucked and someone who would have granted a referendum would have taken over. They would have campaigned for leave, and leave would have won by a neven greater margin.

    We needed a referendum. You could argue that it was held too late: if it had been held five or ten years earlier, we would still be in the EU. And perhaps the Euro...

    So perhaps, just perhaps, things did not end as badly as they could?
    I absolutely do not get this. Cameron gave a referendum and the decision of the British people was to leave? How the hell can that possibly be a mistake? It is respecting the wishes of the majority of this country. Those who say that he should not have granted it wanted to defy that democratic wish for some greater good. And they still do. It is truly shameful.
    You miss my point. Holding the referendum was the *correct* thing to do. He was forced into it by his party, because if he did not agree, he would have been out.

    You might as well blame Blair and Brown for not holding a referendum earlier, than Cameron for holding it when it was too late.

    How the Hell can you possibly not understand that?
    I do not blame Cameron at all. He did the right thing. Brown and Blair didn't. Had they, they might well have won. The anger at the false promises and the lies by the Euro fanatics probably made the difference.
    I believe that was what I said in my post? (The one that started with "he was forced to...")
    Indeed. I was agreeing with the point you made. Sorry if it was not clear.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    We can’t lose two Euros finals in two years, surely?
This discussion has been closed.