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DefSec Wallace now firm favourite for next PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Her book has a forward by Bill Gates and promo quotes from Tony Blair, Richard Branson and Elton John.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Greater-Penny-Mordaunt-Chris-Lewis/dp/1785906097/
    Wow, I did not know this existed.
    It even has positive promo quotes from Elton bloody John. How did she manage that?
    None of them will have read it.

    There's a whole PR industry around getting famous people to sign up to quotes and citations about books they haven't so much as browsed.
    Yes but Elton John? Bill Gates?

    This is not like paying £50 to Nigel Farage on Cameo so that he’ll wish a happy Brexit to Amanda Hugandkiss.
    Mourdant's tome has endorsement from BILL GATES? Talk about a hostage to fortune!

    FYI, he's pretty much dog-shit in Seattle. After earning his merit badges at boy-scout jamborees with Epstein, Maxwell, Bill Clinton, etc. on Fantasy Island.

    BTW, when was (this) PM's book published? Bill Gates's beach blanket bingo hit the fan May of 2021.
  • KevinB said:

    There is a lot of affection for Johnson in the red wall trust me The daily mail is playing to this constituency I honestly think this could all backfire on the conservatives

    Why should we trust your first post, thickie?

  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It’s not a problem with me. But what is it anyway, packed under woke umbrella? Can you really get away with everything from ain’t alf hot mum to trans gender rights in sport, offensive statues to he she and they without accepting your doing nothing but Wallace trying to hold a door like knut held the tide? Everything single one of those things are considered on merit not blanket labelled - where’s your faith gone that each considered on merit we will find the happy medium on each, where is all your lily livened fears coming from? Do they burst forth like Zeus when you get your first fuddyduddy birthday card?

    Moaning about “woke” is a lack of faith in the human spirit will get things right.

    Leave Penny alone on woke 😠
    I've faith humans would find the right balance. But they're not being allowed to. The state is shoehorning people down the hyper woke route - as any visit to a secondary school will attest. If we could simply stop doing so and let what needs to happen, happen, there wouldn't be so much resistance.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Farooq said:

    KevinB said:

    There is a lot of affection for Johnson in the red wall trust me The daily mail is playing to this constituency I honestly think this could all backfire on the conservatives

    Welcome to PB, Nadine
    The tell is the complete lack of punctuation; it’s only semi-literate.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    Sure, fine. I'm just pointing out that this grubby attempt to insinuate that Boris's enemies are foreign is in the finest tradition of ignoring two third of our own country.
    Not only that but the doltish pairing of Moscow and Brussels. Xenophobic tripe, spoon fed to hateful elderly dribblers.

    I believe Big G gets it “for the sudoku”.
    To be fair I only buy the Guardian on Saturday because my daughter and I like to do the killer sudoku together.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    The stab-in-the-back myth is lurching to life even as we write.

    Looking forward to the bit where Boris and Nadine lead a beer-hall putsch in Munich.

    It took 15 years for the Tory party to get over the toppling of Thatcher in 1990, most of them spent in division and opposition until Cameron was elected in 2005. Boris is no Thatcher but the wounds will not easily heal
    I’m loving every second of this. That Mail front page is pure gold dust.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't Wallace's appeal basically the same as the winning entry in eurovision ?
    I'm not sure that's the best basis for a new PM.
    Sunak's the man for me still x

    No, the winning Eurovision singer usually has some pizazz.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited July 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Extraordinary. Minister on Newsnight saying he wouldn't comment when pressed on if Johnson might try to cut and run for an election whilst in his caretaker role.

    Things have changed since when I posted about this earlier - he'd be refused now as he's no longer leader of the largest party.
    Simples.
    And even if he somehow succeeded, the Tories settle on a leader immediately who then deselects him and boots him out of the party.
    He can no longer win an election and remain PM under any circumstances
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    dixiedean said:

    There are some people up here who adore Boris. And I mean love him. Not the Conservative Party.
    Their numbers were grossly exaggerated when he was riding high. They are in danger of being substantially under counted now he's gone.
    That's all I'm saying.

    Yes lots love him in the red wall. These people have been betrayed and they won't forget it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,951
    edited July 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    If the Tories want a principled leader who understands politics and is not tarnished by association with the Borisian shambles they need look no further than Steve Baker. There, I've said it.

    Steve Baker would also be the second evangelical Christian party leader after Tim Farron and our first openly Christian evangelical PM
    If he wants to do religion he can take it to church, but evangelical types seem to have a need to force the rest of us to live by their beliefs. To govern, we need people who can cope with the modern world and not someone who thinks the Universe and the planet run on the basis of a 2,000 year old set of multiply translated fictions.
    I don't think Tim Farron did, to be fair to him. The media found his religion so peculiar it focused on it relentlessly, but he didn't really want to talk about it - seemed very keen to separate the sacred and the profane.
    No, Tim Farron found himself on the wrong end of the "belief spectrum" and voted against the Equality Act, tried to timetable the Same Sex Marriage Act so that it would fail and alienated a lot of the LDs. Years later, in a Guardian interview, he claimed that he only went along with the LDs position on LGBT issues but wished he had not done so
    Oh dear. Not very liberal, was it, trying to fiddle things so that others' beliefs were banned/suppressed?
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. He voted for Gay marriage in the bill's early stages, but abstained in the final vote as he wanted protection for registrars and similar who didn't want to perform gay marriages on conscience grounds. So on that issue very compatible with the definition of Liberal.

    Earlier in his career he had voted against some of the same sex issues in the Equality Act of 2007, such as adoption. Several well regarded religious adoption agencies discontinued when required to comply with the act.

    Why should a registrar get to refuse to marry two people of the same sex? Employees of the state should never be allowed to discriminate in performing their services. That's the state sanctioning bigotry and does not fit at all with my idea of liberalism.
    Things really starts getting complex when one looks at the C of E, which is supposed to be an integral part of the state, and yet won't celebrate single-sex marriages made legal by the same state. Not a discussion I'm particularly interested in digging into, but just a comment on the sort of anomaly one gets with the concept of an Established church where the person in charge (for now) is a RC and the state's laws don't match the church's ideology.
    Yes, which is why I personally strongly believe in keeping religion away from all parts of the state. Including up to the point of not recognising (future) religious ceremonies as legal marriages. Have a registrar there if you want to be legally married, but the hocus pocus crap from the priest is just between you and your God.
    You still have to sign the register, even in a Church of England service like I had last year. It is the register signing that effectively makes it legal not the ceremony, whether religious or civil
    But you legally have to speak some vows, as well, no? And certain religious ministers are legally empowered to administer them, while other celebrants are not. That's the bit I think should change. I think either any celebrant should be recognised, or only the state-employed registrar. Anything else is an invitation to state-sanctioned unequal access which is never what the state should do.
    Well I don't, I refuse to take vows twice when I have already made vows under a religious ceremony. Especially as the religious ones have more meaning for me than any secular civil ones.

    The signing of the register for religious and civil ceremonies is quite enough

    In that case you shouldn't expect the state to consider you married.
    I most certainly will, I signed the register which is quite enough, however I made by marriage vows in the sight of God and the holy ghost not the state
    That's only 2 out of 3. What about JC, or are you embarrassed about his blindingly obv homosexual relationship with John?
    The Christian service includes according to God's holy law and exchange of rings in the sight of Father, Son and Holy Ghost so does take a small part.

    You can mock Christ, I could mock the prophet of your religion of heritage but of course some of them would then impose a Fatwa
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Extraordinary. Minister on Newsnight saying he wouldn't comment when pressed on if Johnson might try to cut and run for an election whilst in his caretaker role.

    Pointless. Hes no longer Tory party leader, he wouldnt be PM even if they won and would have no part in the manifesto etc.
    Which shows the spectacularly low quality of the current crop of Ministers. Your answer is as obvious as it is perfect and any Minister worth his or her salt would have replied with such a comment immediately.

    That the interviewer asked such a question ... 😒
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    Ben Wallace used to be an MSP!

    Amazed i did not know that until 5 mins ago.

    Mr Invisible.
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Remember those who hate Johnson were middle classes in the South and South East. Those people may return to the tories but won't gain them many seats
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    Ooh I think that was my theory! At least, I expressed it. I may not have been the first. I still think it's true though.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    If the Tories want a principled leader who understands politics and is not tarnished by association with the Borisian shambles they need look no further than Steve Baker. There, I've said it.

    Steve Baker would also be the second evangelical Christian party leader after Tim Farron and our first openly Christian evangelical PM
    If he wants to do religion he can take it to church, but evangelical types seem to have a need to force the rest of us to live by their beliefs. To govern, we need people who can cope with the modern world and not someone who thinks the Universe and the planet run on the basis of a 2,000 year old set of multiply translated fictions.
    I don't think Tim Farron did, to be fair to him. The media found his religion so peculiar it focused on it relentlessly, but he didn't really want to talk about it - seemed very keen to separate the sacred and the profane.
    To be fair to evangelicals - who are mostly really nice and decent people - those in politics tend to get hammered, like Farron, for having views which are unfashionable but fairly widely shared, while Roman Catholics and the Islamic community also have all sorts of minority views but tend to be miraculously protected from scrutiny.

    What? Not my impression that the Islamic community are protected from scrutiny - their beliefs are widely and IMo unfairly regarded with suspicion, and attacked every few days in mainstream media, because some lunatics claim to share them. Evangelicals are seen as a bit cranky, but few would go further than that. I don't really care what Baker's beliefs are, unless they affect his policies.
    How often is the fairly rampant anti Semitism of some Muslim communities addressed? Seldom. How often is the widespread homophobia of many Muslim communities addressed? Never, as far as I can see
    How often does Leon turn up the chance of posting some inflammatory Islamophobic nonsense? Seldom.
    OK, can we back up a bit?

    Is it nonsense that homophobia is mainstream in Islam?

    Is it nonsense that antisemitism is mainstream in Islam?

    Is it nonsense tha there is a teacher who is still in hiding and under police protection somewhere in england because he GASP HORROR showed a graphic representation of the Muslim Spaghetti Monster to a class of children?

    Are you happy with any or all of the above?
    It is nonsense to claim that these issues are never addressed. I read about them on PB.com most weeks, for starters.

    Non sequitur of the week.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    If the Tories lose heavily to Sir Keir having been led by some dull mediocrity, I wonder if Boris will be tempted to make a comeback. A historical precedent would be Richard Nixon with whom - not least the initial resignation speech of both men - their are some striking parallels.
    A more accurate and imaginative parallel than the usual one with Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,951
    edited July 2022

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    If the Tories lose heavily to Sir Keir having been led by some dull mediocrity, I wonder if Boris will be tempted to make a comeback. A historical precedent would be Richard Nixon with whom - not least the initial resignation speech of both men - their are some striking parallels.
    Or even Trump who having been beaten by Biden in 2020 now leads him in some polls.

    Nixon of course lost his first general election in 1960 unlike Boris so slightly different
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Also those middle classes demonstrated a high degree of hypocrisy over party gate since most likely broke the rules themselves
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    Somebody should’ve told the Tory MPs that *before* the garrotting 😄
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    Suits me to have her written off. She is the only contender who could get a following with the under 65's, and have a reasonable chance of defending the Blue Wall.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,452
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It’s not a problem with me. But what is it anyway, packed under woke umbrella? Can you really get away with everything from ain’t alf hot mum to trans gender rights in sport, offensive statues to he she and they without accepting your doing nothing but Wallace trying to hold a door like knut held the tide? Everything single one of those things are considered on merit not blanket labelled - where’s your faith gone that each considered on merit we will find the happy medium on each, where is all your lily livened fears coming from? Do they burst forth like Zeus when you get your first fuddyduddy birthday card?

    Moaning about “woke” is a lack of faith in the human spirit will get things right.

    Leave Penny alone on woke 😠
    I've faith humans would find the right balance. But they're not being allowed to. The state is shoehorning people down the hyper woke route - as any visit to a secondary school will attest. If we could simply stop doing so and let what needs to happen, happen, there wouldn't be so much resistance.
    I want someone who will put up sensible political resistance to this, and force common sense.

    Liz Truss has done this. Kemi Badenoch has done this. JK Rowling has done this. Rosie Duffield has done this. Tony Blair has done this. Sarah Champion has done this.

    Penny Mordaunt will not do this, and indeed may fuel it further, and given how strongly I detest identity politics and how it's pulling us apart into an intersectional hierarchy, that's a red line for me.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
  • Anyone else contacting betfair to claim Johnson is next PM as he’s now a caretaker?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,664
    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    It’s what sex crazed, right wing writers do to make money.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,452
    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    He has more axes to grind than an Orc Army.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    KevinB said:

    dixiedean said:

    There are some people up here who adore Boris. And I mean love him. Not the Conservative Party.
    Their numbers were grossly exaggerated when he was riding high. They are in danger of being substantially under counted now he's gone.
    That's all I'm saying.

    Yes lots love him in the red wall. These people have been betrayed and they won't forget it
    BJ was seen as an anti-politician to many. He broke the rules that said you had to do x in politics.

    When many talk about the need to follow the correct standards and procedures, they conveniently omit that the rules are made by the likes of Hunt and co for the benefit of....the likes of Hunt and co. Many voters realise this and liked someone who felt they didn't have to play by those rules.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Andy_JS said:

    Alistair said:

    Ben Wallace used to be an MSP!

    Amazed i did not know that until 5 mins ago.

    Nor did I. But it was the first term of the Scottish parliament in 1999 to 2003.
    Ho ho. Name more than two current Con MSPs, without googling.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Extraordinary. Minister on Newsnight saying he wouldn't comment when pressed on if Johnson might try to cut and run for an election whilst in his caretaker role.

    Pointless. Hes no longer Tory party leader, he wouldnt be PM even if they won and would have no part in the manifesto etc.
    Which shows the spectacularly low quality of the current crop of Ministers. Your answer is as obvious as it is perfect and any Minister worth his or her salt would have replied with such a comment immediately.

    That the interviewer asked such a question ... 😒
    There is a weird level of hysteria still bubbling away.
    Whats been said cannot be unsaid, the job that has been left cannot be retaken. The deed is done. He has 2 weeks of parliamentary time left and no support to pass anything stupid, he is a figurehead only and on any misuse of his reserved powers that he can get by cabinet and his 'handlers' an immediate recall for a VONC
    Hes an arsehole, hes not Ernst Blofeld
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    KevinB said:

    The idea that someone like Ben Wallace a bald boring man could appeal like Johnson is risible

    Welcome!

    And don't you think it's also true (at present juncture anyway) that Ben Wallace does not DIS-appeal like Johnson?

    Doubt even the Caretaker himself would care argue with that proposition. Which is more to the point, at the moment.

    Down the road could be different story.

    But then again, not even Lord Archer would consider manufacturing something THIS crazy and contrived.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Nope. He’s very astute. The Tory membership are morons.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Because if he wasn't a Twat, he wouldn't be Boris
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    Suits me to have her written off. She is the only contender who could get a following with the under 65's, and have a reasonable chance of defending the Blue Wall.
    Those blue wall conservatives might bleat about woke issues but are ultimately all about the money. Most will stay with the tories
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,643
    KevinB said:

    Also those middle classes demonstrated a high degree of hypocrisy over party gate since most likely broke the rules themselves

    It is interesting that Britain is the only major country where Covid hypocrisy had serious political consequences.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    KevinB said:

    There is a lot of affection for Johnson in the red wall trust me The daily mail is playing to this constituency I honestly think this could all backfire on the conservatives

    Oh I do hope you’re right.

    This makes D Ross’s hokey cokey look like a work of genius.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,823
    "Campbell and Dehenna to a disco beat"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,312
    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022
    Nadine / KevinB is brilliant.
    Keep smoking the crackpipe.

    I would be delighted if the Tory Party collapsed into an internecine shit-fight.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2022
    The interesting thing about Penny Mordaunt is that she is slightly woke for a Tory but not in a way that anyone would ever get particularly annoyed or exercised about. Anti-woke Conservatives could live with her as leader.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,134

    But at end of the day, Johnson transgressed one of the unwritten rules of the constitution - you cannot lie knowingly to Parliament (and he did so repeatedly)

    He did, but I'm far from convinced that's why he's finally gone. I'd suggest the unwritten rule that was broken was perhaps "you cannot piss off most of your MPs and the cabinet, and then look like you're not a winner any more"...
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    Somebody should’ve told the Tory MPs that *before* the garrotting 😄
    Yes defeat nailed on under people like Wallace
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Because if he wasn't a Twat, he wouldn't be Boris
    Indeed. Boris’s twatness is as inherent as Sean’s.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    Alistair said:

    Ben Wallace used to be an MSP!

    Amazed i did not know that until 5 mins ago.

    Nor did I. But it was the first term of the Scottish parliament in 1999 to 2003.
    Ho ho. Name more than two current Con MSPs, without googling.
    Fruitcake McTavish and Gandalf Shitler.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Because if he wasn't a Twat, he wouldn't be Boris
    Snap.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    KevinB said:

    Remember those who hate Johnson were middle classes in the South and South East. Those people may return to the tories but won't gain them many seats

    They don't need to gain seats, they need to hold seats and this might enable them to hold seats in the South.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,823
    I hate Boris as much as the next PBer, but back in 2008, he caused me to vote Tory for the first time ever, albeit in the London Mayoralty.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Because being a twat is at the very core of his being. Being a twat was what propelled him forward. Being a twat was why he got to be prime minister in the first place. His strength and his weakness were two sides of the same coin. It's the tragic hero, innit? The Greeks understood this.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    Suits me to have her written off. She is the only contender who could get a following with the under 65's, and have a reasonable chance of defending the Blue Wall.
    Disagree. I think her stance on 'woke' issues could damn her.

    A piece of anecdote. I was at a reunion at my old college, chatting away to a group of other alum, all in Tory seats, all middle class and clearly quite socially liberal when it came to most things. The one thing that got that wound up immensely was how the woke - and specifically the trans - issue was being pushed at school. It's way I don't think the Lib Dems will do well in the GE because once Davey is asked "what's a woman?", he's not going to be able to get past the issue.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Looks like the Boris loyalists have decided that Ben Wallace must be taken down.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    KevinB said:

    There is a lot of affection for Johnson in the red wall trust me The daily mail is playing to this constituency I honestly think this could all backfire on the conservatives

    Oh I do hope you’re right.

    This makes D Ross’s hokey cokey look like a work of genius.
    Dougie was right on even days.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    I’m loving this Toryboy on Toryboy action. Grease up lads.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,312
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    If the Tories want a principled leader who understands politics and is not tarnished by association with the Borisian shambles they need look no further than Steve Baker. There, I've said it.

    Steve Baker would also be the second evangelical Christian party leader after Tim Farron and our first openly Christian evangelical PM
    If he wants to do religion he can take it to church, but evangelical types seem to have a need to force the rest of us to live by their beliefs. To govern, we need people who can cope with the modern world and not someone who thinks the Universe and the planet run on the basis of a 2,000 year old set of multiply translated fictions.
    I don't think Tim Farron did, to be fair to him. The media found his religion so peculiar it focused on it relentlessly, but he didn't really want to talk about it - seemed very keen to separate the sacred and the profane.
    No, Tim Farron found himself on the wrong end of the "belief spectrum" and voted against the Equality Act, tried to timetable the Same Sex Marriage Act so that it would fail and alienated a lot of the LDs. Years later, in a Guardian interview, he claimed that he only went along with the LDs position on LGBT issues but wished he had not done so
    Oh dear. Not very liberal, was it, trying to fiddle things so that others' beliefs were banned/suppressed?
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. He voted for Gay marriage in the bill's early stages, but abstained in the final vote as he wanted protection for registrars and similar who didn't want to perform gay marriages on conscience grounds. So on that issue very compatible with the definition of Liberal.

    Earlier in his career he had voted against some of the same sex issues in the Equality Act of 2007, such as adoption. Several well regarded religious adoption agencies discontinued when required to comply with the act.

    Why should a registrar get to refuse to marry two people of the same sex? Employees of the state should never be allowed to discriminate in performing their services. That's the state sanctioning bigotry and does not fit at all with my idea of liberalism.
    Things really starts getting complex when one looks at the C of E, which is supposed to be an integral part of the state, and yet won't celebrate single-sex marriages made legal by the same state. Not a discussion I'm particularly interested in digging into, but just a comment on the sort of anomaly one gets with the concept of an Established church where the person in charge (for now) is a RC and the state's laws don't match the church's ideology.
    Yes, which is why I personally strongly believe in keeping religion away from all parts of the state. Including up to the point of not recognising (future) religious ceremonies as legal marriages. Have a registrar there if you want to be legally married, but the hocus pocus crap from the priest is just between you and your God.
    You still have to sign the register, even in a Church of England service like I had last year. It is the register signing that effectively makes it legal not the ceremony, whether religious or civil
    But you legally have to speak some vows, as well, no? And certain religious ministers are legally empowered to administer them, while other celebrants are not. That's the bit I think should change. I think either any celebrant should be recognised, or only the state-employed registrar. Anything else is an invitation to state-sanctioned unequal access which is never what the state should do.
    Well I don't, I refuse to take vows twice when I have already made vows under a religious ceremony. Especially as the religious ones have more meaning for me than any secular civil ones.

    The signing of the register for religious and civil ceremonies is quite enough

    In that case you shouldn't expect the state to consider you married.
    I most certainly will, I signed the register which is quite enough, however I made by marriage vows in the sight of God and the holy ghost not the state
    The Holy ghost IS God.

    Theology resits for you!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Isn't Wallace's appeal basically the same as the winning entry in eurovision ?
    I'm not sure that's the best basis for a new PM.
    Sunak's the man for me still x

    If Boris has been kicked out in large part because he was fined for partying in lockdown I don't see how the Tories can replace him with Sunak who was also fined for attending the same party as well as facing allegations over his and his wife's tax affairs.

    No, the Tories want someone dull as ditchwater, but competent and scandal free like Wallace
    Wallace. He’s bald 💁‍♀️
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Boris is a unique individual, they don't just like him they sympathise with him and forgive him. They recognise his generosity of spirit in contrast to many of the pygmies against him
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    He took the decision sometime around 2001 to become a prick and really invest some time and effort in it
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    He's the Ted Heath of the modern day Conservative Party
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Andy_JS said:

    The interesting thing about Penny Mordaunt is that she is slightly woke for a Tory but not in a way that anyone would ever get particularly annoyed or exercised about. Anti-woke Conservatives could live with her as leader.

    But they have. Already.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    John Major is probably the nicest and kindest politician I have met.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,154
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    If the Tories want a principled leader who understands politics and is not tarnished by association with the Borisian shambles they need look no further than Steve Baker. There, I've said it.

    Steve Baker would also be the second evangelical Christian party leader after Tim Farron and our first openly Christian evangelical PM
    If he wants to do religion he can take it to church, but evangelical types seem to have a need to force the rest of us to live by their beliefs. To govern, we need people who can cope with the modern world and not someone who thinks the Universe and the planet run on the basis of a 2,000 year old set of multiply translated fictions.
    I don't think Tim Farron did, to be fair to him. The media found his religion so peculiar it focused on it relentlessly, but he didn't really want to talk about it - seemed very keen to separate the sacred and the profane.
    No, Tim Farron found himself on the wrong end of the "belief spectrum" and voted against the Equality Act, tried to timetable the Same Sex Marriage Act so that it would fail and alienated a lot of the LDs. Years later, in a Guardian interview, he claimed that he only went along with the LDs position on LGBT issues but wished he had not done so
    Oh dear. Not very liberal, was it, trying to fiddle things so that others' beliefs were banned/suppressed?
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. He voted for Gay marriage in the bill's early stages, but abstained in the final vote as he wanted protection for registrars and similar who didn't want to perform gay marriages on conscience grounds. So on that issue very compatible with the definition of Liberal.

    Earlier in his career he had voted against some of the same sex issues in the Equality Act of 2007, such as adoption. Several well regarded religious adoption agencies discontinued when required to comply with the act.

    Why should a registrar get to refuse to marry two people of the same sex? Employees of the state should never be allowed to discriminate in performing their services. That's the state sanctioning bigotry and does not fit at all with my idea of liberalism.
    Things really starts getting complex when one looks at the C of E, which is supposed to be an integral part of the state, and yet won't celebrate single-sex marriages made legal by the same state. Not a discussion I'm particularly interested in digging into, but just a comment on the sort of anomaly one gets with the concept of an Established church where the person in charge (for now) is a RC and the state's laws don't match the church's ideology.
    Yes, which is why I personally strongly believe in keeping religion away from all parts of the state. Including up to the point of not recognising (future) religious ceremonies as legal marriages. Have a registrar there if you want to be legally married, but the hocus pocus crap from the priest is just between you and your God.
    You still have to sign the register, even in a Church of England service like I had last year. It is the register signing that effectively makes it legal not the ceremony, whether religious or civil
    But you legally have to speak some vows, as well, no? And certain religious ministers are legally empowered to administer them, while other celebrants are not. That's the bit I think should change. I think either any celebrant should be recognised, or only the state-employed registrar. Anything else is an invitation to state-sanctioned unequal access which is never what the state should do.
    Well I don't, I refuse to take vows twice when I have already made vows under a religious ceremony. Especially as the religious ones have more meaning for me than any secular civil ones.

    The signing of the register for religious and civil ceremonies is quite enough

    In that case you shouldn't expect the state to consider you married.
    I most certainly will, I signed the register which is quite enough, however I made by marriage vows in the sight of God and the holy ghost not the state
    Given the CoE is the established Church, isn't that a distinction without a difference?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Extraordinary. Minister on Newsnight saying he wouldn't comment when pressed on if Johnson might try to cut and run for an election whilst in his caretaker role.

    Pointless. Hes no longer Tory party leader, he wouldnt be PM even if they won and would have no part in the manifesto etc.
    Which shows the spectacularly low quality of the current crop of Ministers. Your answer is as obvious as it is perfect and any Minister worth his or her salt would have replied with such a comment immediately.

    That the interviewer asked such a question ... 😒
    There is a weird level of hysteria still bubbling away.
    Whats been said cannot be unsaid, the job that has been left cannot be retaken. The deed is done. He has 2 weeks of parliamentary time left and no support to pass anything stupid, he is a figurehead only and on any misuse of his reserved powers that he can get by cabinet and his 'handlers' an immediate recall for a VONC
    Hes an arsehole, hes not Ernst Blofeld
    Because running UKPLC is a full time job. you cannot have a hollowed-out arsehole at the helm.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    KevinB said:

    Also those middle classes demonstrated a high degree of hypocrisy over party gate since most likely broke the rules themselves

    No they didn't.
    I thought the rules were grotesque, but I followed them, because everybody else was. There simply wasn't any secret socialising going on in the suburbs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,312
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    It’s what sex crazed, right wing writers do to make money.

    You make being a “sex crazed right wing writer” sound like a good life choice, TBH

    I may have to reconsider my life choices
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Andy_JS said:

    The interesting thing about Penny Mordaunt is that she is slightly woke for a Tory but not in a way that anyone would ever get particularly annoyed or exercised about. Anti-woke Conservatives could live with her as leader.

    Sure, and I am green to a 4 figure sum if Mordaunt is next PM.

    I think thought that it is more likely the that the Tories choose a right wing tax cutting culture warrior who will lead the Conservatives to a disastrous GE result.
  • Wallace voted against gay marriage

    He’ll tack to the woke
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Nadine / KevinB is brilliant.
    Keep smoking the crackpipe.

    I would be delighted if the Tory Party collapsed into an internecine shit-fight.

    Kevin B never learned to read or write so well, but he could play the guitar just like a ringin a bell
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Cookie said:

    KevinB said:

    Also those middle classes demonstrated a high degree of hypocrisy over party gate since most likely broke the rules themselves

    No they didn't.
    I thought the rules were grotesque, but I followed them, because everybody else was. There simply wasn't any secret socialising going on in the suburbs.
    Yes, I kept them too. Most people did.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,312

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    John Major is probably the nicest and kindest politician I have met.
    Yes but that’s like Bernard Matthews saying Heinrich Himmler is the best German chicken farmer around

    Sort of

    OK I HAD HOMEMADE WINE WITH RATKO
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is
    fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath
    All he had to do was not
    allow parties when the entire country was locked down due
    to plague. “OK let’s not have
    a party” . Six
    words
    To be fair many were hardly parties anyway. People in the red wall recognised that. Middle class liberals in the southeast went into sanctimonious virtue signalling mode however

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    It’s what sex crazed, right wing writers do to make money.

    You make being a “sex crazed right wing writer” sound like a good life choice, TBH

    I may have to reconsider my life choices
    I think the "sex crazed" is redundant.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    He’s thrown away the elder statesman position. But then he’s been doing that since attacking Brown for visiting Afghanistan.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    KevinB said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is
    fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath
    All he had to do was not
    allow parties when the entire country was locked down due
    to plague. “OK let’s not have
    a party” . Six
    words
    To be fair many were hardly parties anyway. People in the red wall recognised that. Middle class liberals in the southeast went into sanctimonious virtue signalling mode however

    Which is why Wakefield has a Tory MP today.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,823
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    It’s what sex crazed, right wing writers do to make money.

    You make being a “sex crazed right wing writer” sound like a good life choice, TBH

    I may have to reconsider my life choices
    I thought that was just a hobby to take your mind off the flint-knapping?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    AND FOR SO LITTLE RETURN

    A couple of glasses of lukewarm fucking chardonnay and propping up a couple of twats when he has an unblemished repputation for disloyalty and not giving a fuck about anybody else? Patz n Pinchers FFS?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2022
    Simple: get all the ballots done next week, one each day. Then 6 weeks for the members postal vote. Result by first week of September.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Even in metropolitan Islington/Hackney borders we kept Covid kosher.

    Kevin B / Nadine is simply creating a fantasy to try to excuse Boris’s misbehaviour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022

    Mail is totally over the top tonight even by their recent standards.

    What the hell have they done?

    Even by the standards of headlines that's a little, er, personally wounded in tone.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    John Major is probably the nicest and kindest politician I have met.
    Yes but that’s like Bernard Matthews saying Heinrich Himmler is the best German chicken farmer around

    Sort of

    OK I HAD HOMEMADE WINE WITH RATKO
    Ratko Mladic? Why am I not surprised.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    Suits me to have her written off. She is the only contender who could get a following with the under 65's, and have a reasonable chance of defending the Blue Wall.
    Disagree. I think her stance on 'woke' issues could damn her.

    A piece of anecdote. I was at a reunion at my old college, chatting away to a group of other alum, all in Tory seats, all middle class and clearly quite socially liberal when it came to most things. The one thing that got that wound up immensely was how the woke - and specifically the trans - issue was being pushed at school. It's way I don't think the Lib Dems will do well in the GE because once Davey is asked "what's a woman?", he's not going to be able to get past the issue.
    You misunderstand. I agree that her being woke will finish her off in the members vote, but that culture warrior reaction is what will cause the Tories to lose the next election. This is not America.
  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    Cookie said:

    KevinB said:

    Also those middle classes demonstrated a high degree of hypocrisy over party gate since most likely broke the rules themselves

    No they didn't.
    I thought the rules were grotesque, but I followed them, because everybody else was. There simply wasn't any secret socialising going on in the suburbs.
    I think the voters in the redwall know the Southern middle classes are lying about this. Many have told me just as much
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    If the Tories want a principled leader who understands politics and is not tarnished by association with the Borisian shambles they need look no further than Steve Baker. There, I've said it.

    Steve Baker would also be the second evangelical Christian party leader after Tim Farron and our first openly Christian evangelical PM
    If he wants to do religion he can take it to church, but evangelical types seem to have a need to force the rest of us to live by their beliefs. To govern, we need people who can cope with the modern world and not someone who thinks the Universe and the planet run on the basis of a 2,000 year old set of multiply translated fictions.
    I don't think Tim Farron did, to be fair to him. The media found his religion so peculiar it focused on it relentlessly, but he didn't really want to talk about it - seemed very keen to separate the sacred and the profane.
    No, Tim Farron found himself on the wrong end of the "belief spectrum" and voted against the Equality Act, tried to timetable the Same Sex Marriage Act so that it would fail and alienated a lot of the LDs. Years later, in a Guardian interview, he claimed that he only went along with the LDs position on LGBT issues but wished he had not done so
    Oh dear. Not very liberal, was it, trying to fiddle things so that others' beliefs were banned/suppressed?
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. He voted for Gay marriage in the bill's early stages, but abstained in the final vote as he wanted protection for registrars and similar who didn't want to perform gay marriages on conscience grounds. So on that issue very compatible with the definition of Liberal.

    Earlier in his career he had voted against some of the same sex issues in the Equality Act of 2007, such as adoption. Several well regarded religious adoption agencies discontinued when required to comply with the act.

    Why should a registrar get to refuse to marry two people of the same sex? Employees of the state should never be allowed to discriminate in performing their services. That's the state sanctioning bigotry and does not fit at all with my idea of liberalism.
    Things really starts getting complex when one looks at the C of E, which is supposed to be an integral part of the state, and yet won't celebrate single-sex marriages made legal by the same state. Not a discussion I'm particularly interested in digging into, but just a comment on the sort of anomaly one gets with the concept of an Established church where the person in charge (for now) is a RC and the state's laws don't match the church's ideology.
    Yes, which is why I personally strongly believe in keeping religion away from all parts of the state. Including up to the point of not recognising (future) religious ceremonies as legal marriages. Have a registrar there if you want to be legally married, but the hocus pocus crap from the priest is just between you and your God.
    You still have to sign the register, even in a Church of England service like I had last year. It is the register signing that effectively makes it legal not the ceremony, whether religious or civil
    But you legally have to speak some vows, as well, no? And certain religious ministers are legally empowered to administer them, while other celebrants are not. That's the bit I think should change. I think either any celebrant should be recognised, or only the state-employed registrar. Anything else is an invitation to state-sanctioned unequal access which is never what the state should do.
    Well I don't, I refuse to take vows twice when I have already made vows under a religious ceremony. Especially as the religious ones have more meaning for me than any secular civil ones.

    The signing of the register for religious and civil ceremonies is quite enough

    In that case you shouldn't expect the state to consider you married.
    I most certainly will, I signed the register which is quite enough, however I made by marriage vows in the sight of God and the holy ghost not the state
    The Holy ghost IS God.

    Theology resits for you!
    Theologically the Holy Ghost is God yes.

    Historically it is probably a narcotic substance. “ When we have the Holy Ghost, we feel love, joy, and peace.”

    The Trinity evolved from the drug taking Christians of North Africa, crossed the sea into Italy and Spain before the Council of Nicaea.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    I am considerably wokier than Foxy.
  • "Campbell and Dehenna to a disco beat"

    ‘It’s not a crime…’

    But it should be
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I used to be John Major's biggest defender on here but he's an idiot for saying the membership shouldn't get a vote on the new leader.

    Major is a piece of work

    He really really is. A duplicitous, nasty, mediocre quisling, he makes Heseltine look honourable and he makes Grieve look, OK no he doesn’t Grieve is vile and obviously so

    But still. An important part of growing up as a conservative is realising that John Major is PUKEWORTHY
    John Major is probably the nicest and kindest politician I have met.
    Yes but that’s like Bernard Matthews saying Heinrich Himmler is the best German chicken farmer around

    Sort of

    OK I HAD HOMEMADE WINE WITH RATKO
    Ratko Mladic? Why am I not surprised.
    And yet John Major is apparently beyond the pale.

    I guess fascists are gonna fasch.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    KevinB said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Corks are popping in Brussels and Moscow apparently. What on earth is the Mail smoking?

    That’s just true. Eurocrats hated Boris, Putin and Co hate him now he’s so vividly pro-Ukraine
    He's hated up and down this country too. The polling is pretty clear.
    Sorry your man turned out so shit.
    But it's also a fair point that some people still really loved Boris. And their votes count as much as anyone else's- maybe more, if they are people who turn out a lot in the right seats.

    I can't remember who first articualted the theory that Johnson had a low floor but a high ceiling for his popularity; he'd probably lead the Conservatives to a calamatous defeat, but might just work his magic one more time. Whereas anyone else would steer the Conservatives to a smaller but almost certain defeat (higher floor, lower celing).

    Ditching Boris was the right thing to do, and should have happened ages ago. But it isn't cost-free.
    Somebody should’ve told the Tory MPs that *before* the garrotting 😄
    Yes defeat nailed on under people like Wallace
    Can you imagine what they’ll make of Wee Benny in Sedgefield, Ashfield, Workington et al? The mind boggles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,951
    edited July 2022
    Odds on a Wallace and Tugendhat final 2? Looking stronger tonight. Some of Hunt's 2019 support already going to Tugendhat and I expect most of Boris' supporters will go to Wallace in the end.

    Both decent, scandal free, ex military men
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
    You seem to be in mourning ! At the end of the day even Tory MPs have a breaking point when it comes to the constant dramas surrounding Johnson .

    He got what he deserved and the fact you think constant lying is fine is really your take on things . If the public didn’t mind the lies his approval ratings wouldn’t be in the toilet .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    I am considerably wokier than Foxy.
    Ooh, do tell!

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    KevinB said:

    There is a lot of affection for Johnson in the red wall trust me The daily mail is playing to this constituency I honestly think this could all backfire on the conservatives

    Oh I do hope you’re right.

    This makes D Ross’s hokey cokey look like a work of genius.
    Dougie was right on even days.
    That’s a better hit-rate than Sean.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    KevinB said:

    Boris is a unique individual, they don't just like him they sympathise with him and forgive him. They recognise his generosity of spirit in contrast to many of the pygmies against him

    Your problem is perhaps that you are a social climber, possibly @Taz in disguise? Like the late lamented Charles otp, Johnson is a lower middle class fuckwit's idea of what a posh person is like.

    Shit did I type that out loud? Time for bed. Pinot noir poisoning is a dangerous thing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited July 2022
    KevinB said:

    dixiedean said:

    There are some people up here who adore Boris. And I mean love him. Not the Conservative Party.
    Their numbers were grossly exaggerated when he was riding high. They are in danger of being substantially under counted now he's gone.
    That's all I'm saying.

    Yes lots love him in the red wall. These people have been betrayed and they won't forget it
    Welcome. More like this please. My FB feed is full of tributes to Boris including a (for me) vomit inducing set of pictures of him at No.10 today with his children, some of them anyway, etc.

    The comments are full of regret, anger, and blame for anti-Brexiters.

    What you say is absolutely correct in that there are such feelings just I'm not sure to what extent throughout the country.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited July 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Simple: get all the ballots done next week, one each day. Then 6 weeks for the members postal vote. Result by first week of September.

    They dont need 6 weeks for the members. 4 weeks is plenty with a couple of televised hustings/debates.
    Let Labour bore everyone with everlasting leadership battles
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,643
    edited July 2022
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It's a good point on Mordaunt's Wokery.

    I read her book where she spent a good few pages having a go at It Ain't Have Hot Mum for having a "full house".

    You can be sure that would all come out in a leadership campaign. I'm not sure how it would affect the MP votes but it would hurt her with the members.

    Oh God, is she Woke??
    Oh yes. Just look up her Mumsnet interview.
    It's the worst thing about her.
    It's her main redeeming feature.

    She is not a culture warrior for the forces of reaction.
    Given you're possibly the Wokest person on here this is the kiss of death for her.

    Tony Blair is well to the Right of her on this, and in the middle ground.
    I am considerably wokier than Foxy.
    The truly woke disown their own families if they don't measure up:

    https://twitter.com/Hegemommy/status/1544871467535327232

    Jessica Mason Pieklo - @Hegemommy
    Honestly if you’re a white person who says they’re committed to racial justice and you’re in good standing with most your family I have *questions* for you and they are definitely pointed

    Full disclosure I’m in contact with exactly three members of my birth and extended family for this specific reason

    That first question is how committed are you, really

    Even the good white families are a *scosh* racist when you scratch the surface
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,720
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
    It is worse than that.

    Positively Shakespearean.

    His character flaw that led to tragedy is he cannot admit responsibility or accept blame or say sorry.

    If he had said there were some lockdown incidents at No 10 that started as work events and then became something else and I am sorry from day one he would still be leader.

  • KevinBKevinB Posts: 109
    EPG said:

    KevinB said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath

    All he had to do was not allow parties when the entire country was locked down due to plague. “OK let’s not have a party” . Six words
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Why couldn’t Boris have just NOT BEEN A TWAT

    Quite.
    You are paraphrasing what my wife said ten minutes ago.
    it’s not like he had to do much to not be a twat, and therefore stay as prime minister

    Nobody really minds the affairs, the constant lying is
    fine, sure go ahead and father a child on your osteopath
    All he had to do was not
    allow parties when the entire country was locked down due
    to plague. “OK let’s not have
    a party” . Six
    words
    To be fair many were hardly parties anyway. People in the red wall recognised that. Middle class liberals in the southeast went into sanctimonious virtue signalling mode however

    Which is why Wakefield has a Tory MP today.
    Thats the cost of living which is hurting people in the red wall, trust me they couldn't care less about the parties, that's for the hypocritical southern middle class
This discussion has been closed.