Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
All we need is another bigheaded arsehole on here who thinks he is cleverer than Albert Enstein. I bet you are related to JRM or some such parasite. Is this you talking to trades persons or your car valet
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
This is British state propaganda obviously intended for consumption inside Russia. Why assume it's gospel?
E2A. If you actually read the article the 3-7 days refers to veterans who have already served in Chechnya (or wherever) being reactivated on 3 month contracts. They aren't raw teenage recruits from the back alleys of Kapotnya.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
Saying that going to university is interesting, fun and enriching doesn't imply looking down on people who don't go to university. It's obviously not for everyone, and that is totally fine. Why do some people insist on turning everything into a tedious them and us class war - and not even the good kind of class war that would end with the capitalists hanging from lampposts?
Meanwhile, if you want to find out the correct way to give your ferret a bath. This webpage is the one for you. It contains the cutest picture of a Ferret.
You're up and about early this morning Malc! On the other hand we don't seem to have settled down to a steady argument about anything; bit bitty! I suppose we're waiting for tomorrow and the by-election results.
Incidentally I am now dictating this but having to correct it afterwards; for example 'bitty' in the previous paragraph came out as 'bitchy! Should I have left it unchanged?
There’s a nice argument about percentages of uni educated workers to be had if you fancy chipping in. I need to find some suntan lotion because it’s roasting here and I’m deploying equipment in a field.
My tertiary education was at a time when many professionals learnt on the job. For example my friend who wanted to be a solicitor left school at 16 and went to work for a local firm, taking the professional exams. Yes he worked, yes he got money but he didn't mix with a lot of other people outside his own area. As a pharmacist I went to a technical college and did the professional examinations: a two-year full time course plus a years practical. That did mean I mixed with people from outside Southeast Essex! My wife was a teacher; two year f/t course plus practical training; fortunately that was near the college I went to and that's how we got together! None of the three of us have degrees! Although the NHS subsequently supported me in doing. a Management MA. However my grandson did a completely different course; Sports Science degree and then on-the-job teacher training. He seems to be a good teacher; now doing a headship course.
Both my wife and I valued the experience of leaving home and meeting new people. As did my grandson,
Ms. Hughes, interesting, may try Chrome in the short term then. Cheers.
I thought Microsoft had fixed the Sharepoint bug. Anyway, I'd make sure Firefox is up to date (menu/help/about firefox) and then try clearing its cache.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
It definitely is as old as the hills, but is so often couched in purely economic terms.
I'd turn it around. As we become more prosperous (yes, yes, I know, but in the long run...) we have a choice as a soicety as to where to spend our surplus wealth over and above subsistence. I'd argue education is amongst the best ways to spend that money - not because it is a means to an end, but as an end in itself. (I would say that, I suppose, as a teacher).
That doesn't have to be university - in my view one of largely unnoticed negative impacts of the gutting of local authority budgets since 2008 has been the reduction or removal of adult education services, often serving a much broader swathe of the electorate than university does.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
Considering how the boomers have stolen all the wealth and rorting the tax and benefit system consistently in their favour, so that I pay much more taxes than someone older than me on the same system, you're bloody right that its the politics of envy. I envy those who grew up in an age were they weren't fucked over by their elders.
What would I have done? If tax was going up I would apply it to everyone equitably rather than age discriminate so only the graduates of the future pay the graduate tax while I keep my taxes nice and low. Or be understanding how good I had it, rather than expect ever more boons to be paid that weren't paid to prior generations and weren't saved for.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
All we need is another bigheaded arsehole on here who thinks he is cleverer than Albert Enstein. I bet you are related to JRM or some such parasite. Is this you talking to trades persons or your car valet
Do have a nice day Malc. It’s sunny so I’m going to enjoy digging holes in a field.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
What generation? The boomer generation.
Thatcher appealled to the boomers votes to screw over the pensioners, because there weren't many pensioners back then and so the boomers didn't give a shit about them - despite the pensioners of their day being those who served in the war years etc.
Then the boomers when it came time to retire suddenly thought how critical good pensions were.
The politicians have spent most of the last fifty years appealling to boomers because that's where the votes are, and the boomers would rather vote themselves rich than give a fuck about their parents or their children or grandchildren.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
The government has capped this year's interest rate at 7.3%.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
Something about democracy and elections comes to mind.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
What generation? The boomer generation.
Thatcher appealled to the boomers votes to screw over the pensioners, because there weren't many pensioners back then and so the boomers didn't give a shit about them - despite the pensioners of their day being those who served in the war years etc.
Then the boomers when it came time to retire suddenly thought how critical good pensions were.
The politicians have spent most of the last fifty years appealling to boomers because that's where the votes are, and the boomers would rather vote themselves rich than give a fuck about their parents or their children or grandchildren.
I tend to agree, sadly. My generation is immensely selfish.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
From memory the point of as allowed by law was to keep the peasantry away from firearms because they would only use them for poaching
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
Most never pay a penny though
You over-stated your case to create board strife. Unsurprisingly.
The current pay back is 23% and expected to rise in 2023/4 to more than 50%.
Expected you dummy, bollox in other words. Bit like me expecting you to post sensible stuff in 2023, never going to happen.
What on Earth is wrong with you today? Why are you always so unspeakably rude? At his most frosty, even Leon doesn’t post in such a disgraceful manner. You’re behaving like a drunken pub boor. It is eminently reasonable for working age people to contest that an inflation indexed pensions rise (which will add significantly to national expenditure) is acceptable while they themselves are not receiving anything like that, and may be paying significant student loan repayments (the terms of which can change at a whim). If you disagree, make your arguments rather than ranting away at those who disagree.
Is there any wonder that the PB memetic pool is narrowing if this is the standard of ad-hominem argumentation which is tolerated? Do you want an echo chamber of elderly, overmonied men who just want to complain about whatever the yoof are up to now? Then there are alternatives. I started posting again because, occasionally, PB produces genuinely insightful debate in a way that only old fashioned forums do and I actually value that, even if you don’t.
Or, to TLDR all of that, I got knocked off my bike on Tuesday and it was less painful than reading your pish. Bloody well behave.
Sympathies. I'm not sure why Malcolm isn't banned, except that he's so consistently rude to almost everyone (to be fair I've not suffered myself) that people don't take it personally - it's like being abused by a drunken stranger, peculiar but not really worth worrying about.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
What generation? The boomer generation.
Thatcher appealled to the boomers votes to screw over the pensioners, because there weren't many pensioners back then and so the boomers didn't give a shit about them - despite the pensioners of their day being those who served in the war years etc.
Then the boomers when it came time to retire suddenly thought how critical good pensions were.
The politicians have spent most of the last fifty years appealling to boomers because that's where the votes are, and the boomers would rather vote themselves rich than give a fuck about their parents or their children or grandchildren.
Bloody hell Bart
Take a look at your own family. Do you detect this relentless intergenerational screwing over going on? If yes, sympathy. If no, perhaps it's not what motivates other people either
For a start, under 50% of boomers voted for Thatcher, while I am bloody certain you would have done
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
I studied medieval English history at university. The emphasis placed on text analysis, on verifying and then questioning the veracity of sources, on developing timelines and on building strong, well-presented arguments has been pretty fundamental to the way my professional career developed. I was taught to question, question and question again. The skills I learned have been massively helpful.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
They did, they said "well regulated".
Isn’t that the National Guard?
Indeed, having arms available for what has become the National Guard is the plain reading of the intent of the Amendment.
Its worth remembering that standing armies were not wanted by the founding fathers.
This isn't just affecting Elon Musk, we've got stuff stuck in Chinese ports too. A real gummed up gear of the world economy, quite why I'm not sure - all the covid lockdowns there were over I thought.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
Not all university courses are the the same. Mine was rock hard.
I appreciate how it got me away from the limits of my local area. Mobility is one the critical side benefits of university. You are not limited by the opportunities offered by your home town and area, Hard to do that otherwise and really important for those unlucky enough to be born in area without opportunities, I got to work in New York for a bit. My best friend is from Manchester. My wife was born in Sydney. Hard to do that at the local firm even if it exists,
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
People in favour of the triple lock should perhaps be a bit less vocal in calling for workers to suck up another 5% drop in real pay whilst welcoming their own inflationary spiral handouts.😀
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
There's nothing in either the text of the constitution, or the historical record which gives a definitive reading of the notoriously obscure Second Amendment. It certainly described and entrenched some sort of right to own weapons, but the maximalist readings the Supreme Court has been pumping out in recent years are pure political ideology and dismal jurisprudence.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Also turnout will be interesting. You'd generally expect a seat like this to be high by by-election standards, but the campaign has been very low key. Plus many Tories are going to show their feelings by deliberately staying at home rather than switching.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Not surprised.
So many on the left have no clue of what actual people think.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
Something about democracy and elections comes to mind.
Yes, numpty, but attributing a mindset to an entire generation is an extraordinary claim which is not supported by the fact that less than 50% of that generation voted for a government which did something
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
I'd favour picking a percentage of average earnings and sticking to it.
You're up and about early this morning Malc! On the other hand we don't seem to have settled down to a steady argument about anything; bit bitty! I suppose we're waiting for tomorrow and the by-election results.
Incidentally I am now dictating this but having to correct it afterwards; for example 'bitty' in the previous paragraph came out as 'bitchy! Should I have left it unchanged?
There’s a nice argument about percentages of uni educated workers to be had if you fancy chipping in. I need to find some suntan lotion because it’s roasting here and I’m deploying equipment in a field.
My tertiary education was at a time when many professionals learnt on the job. For example my friend who wanted to be a solicitor left school at 16 and went to work for a local firm, taking the professional exams. Yes he worked, yes he got money but he didn't mix with a lot of other people outside his own area. As a pharmacist I went to a technical college and did the professional examinations: a two-year full time course plus a years practical. That did mean I mixed with people from outside Southeast Essex! My wife was a teacher; two year f/t course plus practical training; fortunately that was near the college I went to and that's how we got together! None of the three of us have degrees! Although the NHS subsequently supported me in doing. a Management MA. However my grandson did a completely different course; Sports Science degree and then on-the-job teacher training. He seems to be a good teacher; now doing a headship course.
Both my wife and I valued the experience of leaving home and meeting new people. As did my grandson,
This is a very good point. I know quite a few people, intelligent with good jobs, engineering and stuff like that, who got their qualifications through apprenticeships and the like. They earn very good money, but they have never left here. They hang out with the people they grew up with, holiday with people they went to school with. There's nothing wrong with that, each to their own I don't want to sound like I'm sneering at them because I'm not, they're my friends and acquaintances too, but it does, I think, reinforce the parochialism and insularity that I can see round here.
I got away for a few years, uni and that - I never intended to move back here permanently, but then life happened - and mixed and worked with people from around the country, from around Europe and beyond. It did me a lot of good.
I think it would be a poorer country if we cut numbers going to university, because it means fewer working-class kids going to university, less mixing with people beyond their milieu and a greater insularity. Which I guess is precisely what this government would like to see.
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Bit of a softball question. I wonder what the result would be if it talked about refugees being deported against their will,
This is British state propaganda obviously intended for consumption inside Russia. Why assume it's gospel?
I dont.
How do you propose people should treat reporting, since your general suggestion seems to be 'believe pessimistic stuff, dont believe optimistic stuff' which might end up closer to the truth sometimes but is no more based on any kind of logic. So So what's the answer for people who lack the means for time to become experts in every field of military endeavour and international relations? It's not to be cautious since you dont mind taking firm stances, so what?
Genuine question, as there's just no way for people to know everything and merely not trusting everything does not appear to be the answer.
This seems like a really really dumb attempt to argue justification to carry your deadly toy around with you whenever you want.
A medieval English law dating back nearly seven centuries is now at the heart of the most important US Supreme Court gun case in a decade.
The case - which stems from a New York legal battle - challenges a state law that requires that gun users who want a concealed carry permit first prove they have a valid reason.
To help them determine how broad the rights of America's many gun owners go, the country's nine supreme court judges are also looking back to the 1328 Statute of Northampton, which dates back to the reign of Edward III...
In a separate 2008 Supreme Court case that struck down strict Washington DC handgun laws, the late Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the Second Amendment to the US constitution codified "a pre-existing right" from England.
He added that by the time the United States was founded in 1776, the "right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects."
Some historians, however, have disagreed with that assessment, noting that by the late 1200s, English authorities had passed laws restricting the right to carry weapons while traveling in public or in London.
The later 1328 Statute of Northampton - which predates the first recorded use of a firearm in Europe by several decades - declared that nobody "except the King's servants in his presence" will "go nor ride armed by night nor by day" in fairs, markets "nor in no part elsewhere"...
In a brief for the Supreme Court, attorney Paul Clement - who represents Mr Nash, Mr Koch and the New York Rifle and Pistol Association - wrote that the statute was only meant to control "unusual weapons" that would frighten the public
I don't understand why if the 2nd Amendment allows 18 year olds to own semi-automatic weapons, why doesn't it also allow them to own fully automatic weapons, or grenades, or rocket launchers, or Napalm, or Tactical Nuclear Weapons
It probably should. The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was to allow the people to overthrow the government if the government descended into tyranny. A US government of the late 18th century would only have muskets in its army, so allowing private citizens the same put them on an equal footing. Now the US army has nuclear weapons, the only real way for the citizens to effectively fight the US army (should it be needed) is to allow them the same weapons.
So really, yes, private US citizens should be allowed to buy tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, along with the delivery system. They could put them in their back yards.
Except was that actually the point of the 2nd Amendment?
That is the line beloved of NRA types, but the less mentioned "well regulated militia" part of the Amendment rather suggests otherwise.
I thought it would be interesting to look at the wording in the 1689 Bill of Rights, which was an inspiration for the US version. It has:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
There's nothing in either the text of the constitution, or the historical record which gives a definitive reading of the notoriously obscure Second Amendment. It certainly described and entrenched some sort of right to own weapons, but the maximalist readings the Supreme Court has been pumping out in recent years are pure political ideology and dismal jurisprudence.
Yes. The US constitution read sensibly says that no-one is obliged to be a pacifist, and that the state has a right to defend itself by organising the bearing of arms.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
Most never pay a penny though
You over-stated your case to create board strife. Unsurprisingly.
The current pay back is 23% and expected to rise in 2023/4 to more than 50%.
Expected you dummy, bollox in other words. Bit like me expecting you to post sensible stuff in 2023, never going to happen.
What on Earth is wrong with you today? Why are you always so unspeakably rude? At his most frosty, even Leon doesn’t post in such a disgraceful manner. You’re behaving like a drunken pub boor. It is eminently reasonable for working age people to contest that an inflation indexed pensions rise (which will add significantly to national expenditure) is acceptable while they themselves are not receiving anything like that, and may be paying significant student loan repayments (the terms of which can change at a whim). If you disagree, make your arguments rather than ranting away at those who disagree.
Is there any wonder that the PB memetic pool is narrowing if this is the standard of ad-hominem argumentation which is tolerated? Do you want an echo chamber of elderly, overmonied men who just want to complain about whatever the yoof are up to now? Then there are alternatives. I started posting again because, occasionally, PB produces genuinely insightful debate in a way that only old fashioned forums do and I actually value that, even if you don’t.
Or, to TLDR all of that, I got knocked off my bike on Tuesday and it was less painful than reading your pish. Bloody well behave.
Sympathies. I'm not sure why Malcolm isn't banned, except that he's so consistently rude to almost everyone (to be fair I've not suffered myself) that people don't take it personally - it's like being abused by a drunken stranger, peculiar but not really worth worrying about.
Malcolm is rude only in the language he uses to disagree with people. He's otherwise very pleasant.
I think there's more to rudeness than language, and I think there are other posters on here who are consistently more rude than Malcolm, despite using language more typically regarded as polite.
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Bit of a softball question. I wonder what the result would be if it talked about refugees being deported against their will,
As it applies only to those illegal channel crossings then much the same result
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Not surprised.
So many on the left have no clue of what actual people think.
Maybe so, though they aren't the only ones, but perhaps it's a rare case of principle breaking out and they know the public support it but still think it is wrong.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
I'd favour picking a percentage of average earnings and sticking to it.
That might work. It would encourage a high wage economy at least.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Also turnout will be interesting. You'd generally expect a seat like this to be high by by-election standards, but the campaign has been very low key. Plus many Tories are going to show their feelings by deliberately staying at home rather than switching.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
I don't think 50% is a magic number, but nearly all our international competitors have similar tertiary education rates, and even places like Mexico or Indonesia manage 15-20%.
A lot of our university courses are poorly taught, poorly designed and overpriced, but that is the fault of the system not of the students aspirations.
Tertiary education does not have to mean uni, and I *think* those figures are not comparing like-with-like, especially with regards to vocational training.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
I don’t understand this habit of blaming Labour for everything. They’ve been in opposition for twelve years. Yes silly political games are silly, but the fault lies solely with the party in power who can do stuff. Anything else is deflection.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
It didn't, what "generation" does anything like that? It was the Thatcher government.
What generation? The boomer generation.
Thatcher appealled to the boomers votes to screw over the pensioners, because there weren't many pensioners back then and so the boomers didn't give a shit about them - despite the pensioners of their day being those who served in the war years etc.
Then the boomers when it came time to retire suddenly thought how critical good pensions were.
The politicians have spent most of the last fifty years appealling to boomers because that's where the votes are, and the boomers would rather vote themselves rich than give a fuck about their parents or their children or grandchildren.
You know another subset of a population which attracted furious blame for the nation's economic woes at a time of high inflation?
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Stick to bashing the poor loser, your betters just laugh at your whining and all that without needing to go to University, all done using my brains.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
I studied medieval English history at university. The emphasis placed on text analysis, on verifying and then questioning the veracity of sources, on developing timelines and on building strong, well-presented arguments has been pretty fundamental to the way my professional career developed. I was taught to question, question and question again. The skills I learned have been massively helpful.
The entire of education is blighted by functionalism. The sort of thinking that says the whole point of reading, arithmetic and stuff is 'so that you can get a good job' from the age of 4.
This then ends up with people who have degrees in Tibetan languages and Elamite Cuneiform having to justify these things by reference to how it is monetised.
This is a totally rubbish view of what the world is for. Yes, there are extrinsic values in education; but the fun and depth is all in the intrinsic value.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
He had to guess as he had run out of fingers and toes. He would not know a boomer if he fell over one. A whining whinging Tory snake.
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Bit of a softball question. I wonder what the result would be if it talked about refugees being deported against their will,
As it applies only to those illegal channel crossings then much the same result
Have people been asked whether they believe it should be impossible for asylum seekers from certain countries to claim refuge in the UK legally? Because that is integral to the government's Rwanda forced removal policy.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
I studied medieval English history at university. The emphasis placed on text analysis, on verifying and then questioning the veracity of sources, on developing timelines and on building strong, well-presented arguments has been pretty fundamental to the way my professional career developed. I was taught to question, question and question again. The skills I learned have been massively helpful.
The entire of education is blighted by functionalism. The sort of thinking that says the whole point of reading, arithmetic and stuff is 'so that you can get a good job' from the age of 4.
This then ends up with people who have degrees in Tibetan languages and Elamite Cuneiform having to justify these things by reference to how it is monetised.
This is a totally rubbish view of what the world is for. Yes, there are extrinsic values in education; but the fun and depth is all in the intrinsic value.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
Labour is not my Party.
And your diversion tactic rather proves my point about hypocrites
I will be a beneficiary from next April but won't alter my opinion that workers deserve an inflation linked pay rise if pensioners do
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
I studied medieval English history at university. The emphasis placed on text analysis, on verifying and then questioning the veracity of sources, on developing timelines and on building strong, well-presented arguments has been pretty fundamental to the way my professional career developed. I was taught to question, question and question again. The skills I learned have been massively helpful.
The entire of education is blighted by functionalism. The sort of thinking that says the whole point of reading, arithmetic and stuff is 'so that you can get a good job' from the age of 4.
This then ends up with people who have degrees in Tibetan languages and Elamite Cuneiform having to justify these things by reference to how it is monetised.
This is a totally rubbish view of what the world is for. Yes, there are extrinsic values in education; but the fun and depth is all in the intrinsic value.
This comes down to an important question: what is the point (or points) of further education? Is it to enrich the individual? Is it to give them important life skills? Is it to teach them how to learn independently? Is it to give them skills for work? Is it to provide the country with the workforce it needs for the future? And if many of these, how do you weight them?
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
I am glad that you get a degree these days for nursing training. My sister trained as nurse. She got her degree later. It meant a lot to her.
For choice to be real, kids from families without a history of university education need encouragement and support to go to university.
Morning all. The big election news isn’t the by-elections but clearly the general election in Jersey which was quite a good warning for the Tories amongst others.
The crazy property market which has been stoked and encouraged by previous assemblies has finally caught up with them and added to the cost of living issues resulted in a large amount of centre-left/left Deputies being elected. Quite unusual for Jersey.
The Reform Party who I think of as “soft Corbin” are the biggest single party with about 20% of seats (political parties are a relatively new thing in Jersey).
The Chief Minister and a number of other Ministers lost their seats and “None of the above” occupied the Lib Dems’ third place in many seats.
Its a good lesson for politicians that thinking there will always be enough people who are benefiting from the general wealth and won’t rock the boat by voting for a good dose of socialism works until there aren’t enough of those people and the middle classes can’t afford to buy or rent.
Coupled with a massive population problem (successive govts went for growth for growth’s sake) where now the EU taps are off for cheap hospitality staff etc the cost of living keeps shooting up - a cleaner costs at least £20 per hour and I saw a kitchen porter job being advertised yesterday for £35k p.a. Which obviously knocks on to all costs.
If it can happen in an ostensibly wealthy place like Jersey then it can happen in the UK and if the Tories don’t do anything to solve it before next election then it might not hurt Labour to be more bold and pursue an identifiably left wing agenda.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
Most never pay a penny though
You over-stated your case to create board strife. Unsurprisingly.
The current pay back is 23% and expected to rise in 2023/4 to more than 50%.
Expected you dummy, bollox in other words. Bit like me expecting you to post sensible stuff in 2023, never going to happen.
What on Earth is wrong with you today? Why are you always so unspeakably rude? At his most frosty, even Leon doesn’t post in such a disgraceful manner. You’re behaving like a drunken pub boor. It is eminently reasonable for working age people to contest that an inflation indexed pensions rise (which will add significantly to national expenditure) is acceptable while they themselves are not receiving anything like that, and may be paying significant student loan repayments (the terms of which can change at a whim). If you disagree, make your arguments rather than ranting away at those who disagree.
Is there any wonder that the PB memetic pool is narrowing if this is the standard of ad-hominem argumentation which is tolerated? Do you want an echo chamber of elderly, overmonied men who just want to complain about whatever the yoof are up to now? Then there are alternatives. I started posting again because, occasionally, PB produces genuinely insightful debate in a way that only old fashioned forums do and I actually value that, even if you don’t.
Or, to TLDR all of that, I got knocked off my bike on Tuesday and it was less painful than reading your pish. Bloody well behave.
Sympathies. I'm not sure why Malcolm isn't banned, except that he's so consistently rude to almost everyone (to be fair I've not suffered myself) that people don't take it personally - it's like being abused by a drunken stranger, peculiar but not really worth worrying about.
I am surprised you are not banned for being a nasty piece of work. As you say I have never said a bad thing about you yet you want me banned. Pompous hypocritical and plain nasty.
The excited last minute money is going on Tory’s in Devon probably because that is the last value bet - if anything I sense Libdem confidence has grown this week.
An Aspect of the North Shropshire result was credible Labour and Green totals. same failure to squeeze them in the more Johnsonite Devon seat may prove costly.
Maybe the Labour vote that got them second has a core more Corbynite than Starmerite, and not for squeezing? Has the Burgon Bus, with Sultana the hostess, and packed with dried old fruits, been down there?
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
I don’t understand this habit of blaming Labour for everything. They’ve been in opposition for twelve years. Yes silly political games are silly, but the fault lies solely with the party in power who can do stuff. Anything else is deflection.
Not really in this case
Rishi cancelled the triple lock this year, and labour furiously attacked it rather than taking the sensible position that not only should it be cancelled this year, but reviewed for the following years
Labour played short term politics with the triple lock virtually assuring its continuance into the future
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
I am glad that you get a degree these days for nursing training. My sister trained as nurse. She got her degree later. It meant a lot to her.
For choice to be real, kids from families without a history of university education need encouragement and support to go to university.
I have got no problems with nurses getting degrees. There is a problem is if the only way into nursing is having a degree.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
Bit of a softball question. I wonder what the result would be if it talked about refugees being deported against their will,
As it applies only to those illegal channel crossings then much the same result
It's not illegal to seek asylum. Even the Pritster prefers them term 'clandestine'.
The excited last minute money is going on Tory’s in Devon simply because that is the last only value bet - if anything Libdem confidence has grown this week.
An Aspect of the North Shropshire result was credible Labour and Green totals. same failure to squeeze them in the more Johnsonite Devon seat may prove costly.
Maybe the Labour vote that got them second has a core more Corbynite than Starmerite, and not for squeezing? Has the Burgon Bus, with Sultana the hostess, and packed with dried old fruits, been down there?
the last only value bet Not sure about that, just because something is odds against doesn't make it value.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
Traditionally, solicitors were often non-graduates, having done articles after leaving school (often for the local council, incidentally). Even now, there is no need for would-be lawyers to do law degrees; any old subject plus a conversion course will do. And law A-levels are often looked down on by the snootier universities.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
I don’t understand this habit of blaming Labour for everything. They’ve been in opposition for twelve years. Yes silly political games are silly, but the fault lies solely with the party in power who can do stuff. Anything else is deflection.
Not really in this case
Rishi cancelled the triple lock this year, and labour furiously attacked it rather than taking the sensible position that not only should it be cancelled this year, but reviewed for the following years
Labour played short term politics with the triple lock virtually assuring its continuance into the future
What is this mythical power the opposition has when faced with an 80 seat majority government?
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
@BartholomewRoberts I don't often agree with your posts (though often find them informative), but this is enjoyably succint and accurate (as far as I'm aware - I didn't know that it was the baby boomer generation that broke the earnings link). Thank you.
He had to guess as he had run out of fingers and toes. He would not know a boomer if he fell over one. A whining whinging Tory snake.
You really are the most miserable poster on this site Malc. I can only assume your life is so shite you have to lash out at everyone else who might actually be enjoying theirs.
On which basis, I hope things improve for you and you learn to hate your fellow human beings a little less.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Really? Is there much evidence for that? I thought one of Russia's problems has been the decrepit state of a lot of their equipment.
I can't read the paywalled article but could Con Coughlin, Defence Editor, have a tiny interest in, er, more defence spending?
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Coughlin and Peter Mannion?
He argues we are pivoting to a different type of war (cyber and low intensity afghanistan type operations) because we thought a land war in europe against Russia was a thing of the past. The pivot needs to change. And quick. Putin 'aint done yet.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Really? Is there much evidence for that? I thought one of Russia's problems has been the decrepit state of a lot of their equipment.
I can't read the paywalled article but could Con Coughlin, Defence Editor, have a tiny interest in, er, more defence spending?
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Coughlin and Peter Mannion?
I am obviously an outsider in the industry, but one of the great lies of military procurement appears to be "whoever has the shiniest kit wins!"
There is some truth in that, but what matters as much, if not more, is training. To pick a concocted example, it is pointless in having 200 5th-gen fighters if you only have 50 pilots who get only 50 flight hours per year.
It's why you budget for people is as, if not more, important than your budget for kit. Sadly, shiny sells.
I do winder if Russia's big problem is that they've spent decades telling themselves they're the best, and have not made the effort to ensure that they are.
Morning all. The big election news isn’t the by-elections but clearly the general election in Jersey which was quite a good warning for the Tories amongst others.
The crazy property market which has been stoked and encouraged by previous assemblies has finally caught up with them and added to the cost of living issues resulted in a large amount of centre-left/left Deputies being elected. Quite unusual for Jersey.
The Reform Party who I think of as “soft Corbin” are the biggest single party with about 20% of seats (political parties are a relatively new thing in Jersey).
The Chief Minister and a number of other Ministers lost their seats and “None of the above” occupied the Lib Dems’ third place in many seats.
Its a good lesson for politicians that thinking there will always be enough people who are benefiting from the general wealth and won’t rock the boat by voting for a good dose of socialism works until there aren’t enough of those people and the middle classes can’t afford to buy or rent.
Coupled with a massive population problem (successive govts went for growth for growth’s sake) where now the EU taps are off for cheap hospitality staff etc the cost of living keeps shooting up - a cleaner costs at least £20 per hour and I saw a kitchen porter job being advertised yesterday for £35k p.a. Which obviously knocks on to all costs.
If it can happen in an ostensibly wealthy place like Jersey then it can happen in the UK and if the Tories don’t do anything to solve it before next election then it might not hurt Labour to be more bold and pursue an identifiably left wing agenda.
Labour already have run on a leftwing agenda, in 2017 and 2019 but lost.
The average house price for a 2 bed in Jersey is now over £600k, hence it is closer to London prices than UK average prices and hence so many in Jersey like London rent. Labour won London even in 2019
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
I don’t understand this habit of blaming Labour for everything. They’ve been in opposition for twelve years. Yes silly political games are silly, but the fault lies solely with the party in power who can do stuff. Anything else is deflection.
Not really in this case
Rishi cancelled the triple lock this year, and labour furiously attacked it rather than taking the sensible position that not only should it be cancelled this year, but reviewed for the following years
Labour played short term politics with the triple lock virtually assuring its continuance into the future
I don’t agree. Oppositions oppose, sometimes to their discredit, but it’s their job. Labour had less than zero effect on Sunak. If they’d supported it Sunak would have done the same thing and dared Labour to oppose it. This is all in his court and the blame or credit is all his.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
Bit politics of envy there Bart. What would you have done, gone to university but insisted on paying? And it wasn't a "generation" that broke the earnings link it was your beloved Maggie.
As a pensioner I do understand the frustration with pensioners who appear to have it all but while that is true for many, it must be remembered that the state pension is just £9,600 pa and even with a 10% rise that still only provides a pensioner with an income of £10,560, though they should qualify for pension credits
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
I think the triple lock should remain broken and should take the advice of an independent pensions review body (just like we do with public sector pay) unless in exceptional circumstances. Let the political and economic winds drive it, rather than having a magic accumulator that spits out the highest possible number.
It seems it is not an argument those at Westminster including labour are willing to have
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
Just because both sides support it doesn't make it right
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
But your labour party could have changed the whole debate but flunked it and hence it is here to stay
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
I don’t understand this habit of blaming Labour for everything. They’ve been in opposition for twelve years. Yes silly political games are silly, but the fault lies solely with the party in power who can do stuff. Anything else is deflection.
Not really in this case
Rishi cancelled the triple lock this year, and labour furiously attacked it rather than taking the sensible position that not only should it be cancelled this year, but reviewed for the following years
Labour played short term politics with the triple lock virtually assuring its continuance into the future
What is this mythical power the opposition has when faced with an 80 seat majority government?
Haven't you realised by now that all the economic woes are Labour's fault?
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
My fear is the culmination of this debate takes us directly into HYUFD's desire that higher education is exclusive to the 5% of those whose parents were wealthy enough to invest in the best primary and secondary education money could buy.
The narrative that non-vocational degrees from non-Russell Group universities are not worth the paper they are written on is incredibly depressing. It is the ultimate suppression of everyone but the elite of the elite.
If 50% of the population choose to go to university to become a Barista rather than a Barrister, so be it.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Really? Is there much evidence for that? I thought one of Russia's problems has been the decrepit state of a lot of their equipment.
I can't read the paywalled article but could Con Coughlin, Defence Editor, have a tiny interest in, er, more defence spending?
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Coughlin and Peter Mannion?
Russian equipment has been fine. The biggest Russian problem has been a manpower shortage - they've been driving around mostly empty armoured personnel carriers. That and logistics. And strategy and tactics. And middle and training.
A lot of the Russian equipment is pretty good. Or at least it was, before it was destroyed.
Why are there FOUR Radio 1s now? I have to scroll past them whenever I change between Radio 4 and 5, and every time I think, why FOUR?!? One 1 used to be plenty.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
You do realise 90% of boomers never went to university? Now about 40% of 18 year olds graduate from university.
They also paid into NI just as their parents did as well as private pension schemes for some. It was the government that broke the earnings link
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
I am glad that you get a degree these days for nursing training. My sister trained as nurse. She got her degree later. It meant a lot to her.
For choice to be real, kids from families without a history of university education need encouragement and support to go to university.
I have got no problems with nurses getting degrees. There is a problem is if the only way into nursing is having a degree.
That does still exist, it’s just a different role now: healthcare assistant. They can’t dispense or do the more risky medical stuff but they do the grunt work that junior nurses did in the 70s. I’m not sure how easy it is to progress to a full nursing role though. Maybe Dr Foxy can enlighten us?
RedfieldWilton Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42% Oppose 28%
If you asked the question "should migrant boats in the channel be strafed with Royal Navy artillery fire" the polling would likely be similar. It's a stupid question about an immoral policy
I do winder if Russia's big problem is that they've spent decades telling themselves they're the best, and have not made the effort to ensure that they are.
The reason Putin and his acolytes feel sufficiently confident to continue threatening the West is because they have invested heavily in new warships, warplanes, missiles and tanks. Major powers like Britain must do the same if they are to prevent any further acts of Russian aggression.
Really? Is there much evidence for that? I thought one of Russia's problems has been the decrepit state of a lot of their equipment.
I can't read the paywalled article but could Con Coughlin, Defence Editor, have a tiny interest in, er, more defence spending?
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Coughlin and Peter Mannion?
Russian equipment has been fine. The biggest Russian problem has been a manpower shortage - they've been driving around mostly empty armoured personnel carriers. That and logistics. And strategy and tactics. And middle and training.
A lot of the Russian equipment is pretty good. Or at least it was, before it was destroyed.
I'd argue the number of tanks that have been destroyed with the turrrets attempting to break the height record shows there is a rather significant problem with their tanks design philosophy.
You're up and about early this morning Malc! On the other hand we don't seem to have settled down to a steady argument about anything; bit bitty! I suppose we're waiting for tomorrow and the by-election results.
Incidentally I am now dictating this but having to correct it afterwards; for example 'bitty' in the previous paragraph came out as 'bitchy! Should I have left it unchanged?
There’s a nice argument about percentages of uni educated workers to be had if you fancy chipping in. I need to find some suntan lotion because it’s roasting here and I’m deploying equipment in a field.
My tertiary education was at a time when many professionals learnt on the job. For example my friend who wanted to be a solicitor left school at 16 and went to work for a local firm, taking the professional exams. Yes he worked, yes he got money but he didn't mix with a lot of other people outside his own area. As a pharmacist I went to a technical college and did the professional examinations: a two-year full time course plus a years practical. That did mean I mixed with people from outside Southeast Essex! My wife was a teacher; two year f/t course plus practical training; fortunately that was near the college I went to and that's how we got together! None of the three of us have degrees! Although the NHS subsequently supported me in doing. a Management MA. However my grandson did a completely different course; Sports Science degree and then on-the-job teacher training. He seems to be a good teacher; now doing a headship course.
Both my wife and I valued the experience of leaving home and meeting new people. As did my grandson,
This is a very good point. I know quite a few people, intelligent with good jobs, engineering and stuff like that, who got their qualifications through apprenticeships and the like. They earn very good money, but they have never left here. They hang out with the people they grew up with, holiday with people they went to school with. There's nothing wrong with that, each to their own I don't want to sound like I'm sneering at them because I'm not, they're my friends and acquaintances too, but it does, I think, reinforce the parochialism and insularity that I can see round here.
I got away for a few years, uni and that - I never intended to move back here permanently, but then life happened - and mixed and worked with people from around the country, from around Europe and beyond. It did me a lot of good.
I think it would be a poorer country if we cut numbers going to university, because it means fewer working-class kids going to university, less mixing with people beyond their milieu and a greater insularity. Which I guess is precisely what this government would like to see.
Thanks Mr M. Further to my comments eldest granddaughter went to a Northern University from south Essex and has stayed up north; she's been back but now has no desire to come back to Essex to live. Also both my sons spent time out of the country during their degree courses. One son had an Erasmus trip to Germany; the other an exchange year in Texas. Those options would not have been available, but for university!
The excited last minute money is going on Tory’s in Devon simply because that is the last only value bet - if anything Libdem confidence has grown this week.
An Aspect of the North Shropshire result was credible Labour and Green totals. same failure to squeeze them in the more Johnsonite Devon seat may prove costly.
Maybe the Labour vote that got them second has a core more Corbynite than Starmerite, and not for squeezing? Has the Burgon Bus, with Sultana the hostess, and packed with dried old fruits, been down there?
the last only value bet Not sure about that, just because something is odds against doesn't make it value.
The term 'value bet' always makes me smile. The only way to spot the 'value bet' is to wait until after the race.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
You also genuinely can’t do some lines of work without some sort of tertiary education. We don’t have enough engineers in the labour force, and that’s a career that needs a degree. You can start as a technician and get an accelerated degree later, but you still need to go do it. It’s the challenge of a service based economy innt? If you want high value service with a side order of high value manufacturing you need highly educated workers. That isn’t to say there isn’t any role for skilled manual or trades work, the guy who valets my car probably earns more than me, but on an economic level it makes sense to have a lot of university graduates. As Foxy said, poor courses do not help this.
Good point.
I am conscious that this debate is old as the hills. .
Not that long ago, some challenged whether secondary education was valuable and necessary for all kids. Before that, some challenged whether a full primary education was necessary for some kids. Same debate.
Personally, I believe that university education should be an option for all kids with the grades and that kids without a history of education in their family need support to make that informed choice.
I am actually fairly negative about the value of tertiary education, despite (or perhaps because of!) my university work, but to me it is not about numbers.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
My fear is the culmination of this debate takes us directly into HYUFD's desire that higher education is exclusive to the 5% of those whose parents were wealthy enough to invest in the best primary and secondary education money could buy.
The narrative that non-vocational degrees from non-Russell Group universities are not worth the paper they are written on is incredibly depressing. It is the ultimate suppression of everyone but the elite of the elite.
If 50% of the population choose to go to university to become a Barista rather than a Barrister, so be it.
Yet the facts show the highest level apprentices earn more over their lifetime than all graduates except those who went to Oxbridge and a Russell Group university.
Germany has more apprentices and fewer graduates than us and does fine
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
This is exactly the sort of issue I mean. Firstly, the idea that they don't have an education if they don't go to uni. Secondly, that not going to uni means they won't see the world. Thirdly, that work has to be tedious (with the implication that uni is all fun and laughter).
Uni is not, and should not be, an extended childhood. It should be a way of people getting skills that will improve their job prospects and enrich their lives. If they have fun doing so, fair enough. But (whispers quietly) working your people can have fun as well.
There is so much crummy disdain for people who do not go to uni. It's especially funny when it comes from people on the left, who decry classism and create their own class where they are the snobs, looking down on the inferior people who did not go to uni.
(I don't mean you in that last para)
I just want a university education to be a choice whatever you background. There’s is more to life than work and taking time out to study is a rich part of life. You can learn things at a university that you cannot learn on the job.
Once tied into the obligations of kids and mortgages it’s hard to find the time not to work. So it’s an import choice at an important moment,
Of course it should be a choice: but there should be other choices as well. At the moment it's basically uni or work with no FE - and too many people stupidly see the latter route as the scrapheap.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
I am glad that you get a degree these days for nursing training. My sister trained as nurse. She got her degree later. It meant a lot to her.
For choice to be real, kids from families without a history of university education need encouragement and support to go to university.
I have got no problems with nurses getting degrees. There is a problem is if the only way into nursing is having a degree.
There *are* routes to train without full-time study at university, but I think nurses should be recognized as having learnt something substantial and valuable.
It may not be fair, but for whatever reason, employers want to see qualifications. To say to nurses who didn't go to university you don't get a degree would hinder their prospects.
Morning all. The big election news isn’t the by-elections but clearly the general election in Jersey which was quite a good warning for the Tories amongst others.
The crazy property market which has been stoked and encouraged by previous assemblies has finally caught up with them and added to the cost of living issues resulted in a large amount of centre-left/left Deputies being elected. Quite unusual for Jersey.
The Reform Party who I think of as “soft Corbin” are the biggest single party with about 20% of seats (political parties are a relatively new thing in Jersey).
The Chief Minister and a number of other Ministers lost their seats and “None of the above” occupied the Lib Dems’ third place in many seats.
Its a good lesson for politicians that thinking there will always be enough people who are benefiting from the general wealth and won’t rock the boat by voting for a good dose of socialism works until there aren’t enough of those people and the middle classes can’t afford to buy or rent.
Coupled with a massive population problem (successive govts went for growth for growth’s sake) where now the EU taps are off for cheap hospitality staff etc the cost of living keeps shooting up - a cleaner costs at least £20 per hour and I saw a kitchen porter job being advertised yesterday for £35k p.a. Which obviously knocks on to all costs.
If it can happen in an ostensibly wealthy place like Jersey then it can happen in the UK and if the Tories don’t do anything to solve it before next election then it might not hurt Labour to be more bold and pursue an identifiably left wing agenda.
Labour already have run on a leftwing agenda, in 2017 and 2019 but lost.
The average house price for a 2 bed in Jersey is now over £600k, hence it is closer to London prices than UK average prices and hence so many in Jersey like London rent. Labour won London even in 2019
Problem is not the prices of two beds - it’s now very very hard for families to buy - avg for three bed is over £800k and for a four bed it’s £1.25m so puts the squeeze on those who are working in well paid jobs - when it just affects those who live on the edge you can get away with it but when it affects middle class families in what are well paid finance jobs who expect to be able to buy a family home then you’ve got problems.
And rental is even crazier with small market and ridiculously expensive so not a great alternative option.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
Most never pay a penny though
You over-stated your case to create board strife. Unsurprisingly.
The current pay back is 23% and expected to rise in 2023/4 to more than 50%.
Expected you dummy, bollox in other words. Bit like me expecting you to post sensible stuff in 2023, never going to happen.
What on Earth is wrong with you today? Why are you always so unspeakably rude? At his most frosty, even Leon doesn’t post in such a disgraceful manner. You’re behaving like a drunken pub boor. It is eminently reasonable for working age people to contest that an inflation indexed pensions rise (which will add significantly to national expenditure) is acceptable while they themselves are not receiving anything like that, and may be paying significant student loan repayments (the terms of which can change at a whim). If you disagree, make your arguments rather than ranting away at those who disagree.
Is there any wonder that the PB memetic pool is narrowing if this is the standard of ad-hominem argumentation which is tolerated? Do you want an echo chamber of elderly, overmonied men who just want to complain about whatever the yoof are up to now? Then there are alternatives. I started posting again because, occasionally, PB produces genuinely insightful debate in a way that only old fashioned forums do and I actually value that, even if you don’t.
Or, to TLDR all of that, I got knocked off my bike on Tuesday and it was less painful than reading your pish. Bloody well behave.
Sympathies. I'm not sure why Malcolm isn't banned, except that he's so consistently rude to almost everyone (to be fair I've not suffered myself) that people don't take it personally - it's like being abused by a drunken stranger, peculiar but not really worth worrying about.
I am surprised you are not banned for being a nasty piece of work. As you say I have never said a bad thing about you yet you want me banned. Pompous hypocritical and plain nasty.
Thursday's Express: "It's only fair! Rishi defends £1,000 boost to pensions"
Aha, we locked down to save them and our student loans get jacked up 11%, fuck off you twat
Pay the money you borrowed and stop whining. You either benefitted with a good job of you leave the poor to pick up your tab for years pissing it up at uni wasting pensioners hard earned pittance. Stop blaming other people for your uselessness
Are the student loans running at 11%?.... thats horrendous.
What is quite amazing how completely and utterly useless young people are at asserting themselves politically. They don't seem to even realise that they are being screwed over. The NI increase went through without a murmur of dissent. Whack up taxes, change the terms of student loans, keep giving bungs to pensioners so they vote tory.... Zero opposition (or even interest) from young people. It is astonishing.
That is because most are useless. They spend a few years at uni and think they are big shots when in fact they mainly struggle to wipe their own arses. They then whine incessantly about only earning 50k while complaining that all all those nasty pensioners who worked and paid taxes for 50 years are living high on the hog on their 9k pensions.
Yep, they shouldn't go to uni. Better off with a secure job and good income, such as working on the railways.
I think I shall bid you all good day.
The forum is more than normally populated by grumpy old, white, men this morning. I shall leave you all to dribble with anger into your cornflakes.
xx
I was being tongue in cheek, echoing the PB perennial of too many of other people's children going to university, with the notion that they would be better getting proper jobs.
Do you not think there's a point to be made there? Why is 50% of people going to university the magic number? Why not 90%? 20%?
My nephew got the grades to go to uni, but chose instead to go into the Wonderful World of Work. He's now on a significantly higher salary than his friends who went to uni, and has a house (with mortgage).
One of the great education sins of the last 30 yeas has been this idea that kids must go to uni, and that kids who do not are somehow inferior.
Surely the point is that people have the choice. Get the grades, go if you want. Personally I would encourage people to get an education and see the world before locking themselves into he tedious world of work, nappies and mortgages. You’ll spend decades doing that.
We have enough freeloaders thank you.
Aye. The boomers that went to university all expenses paid and chose to break the earnings link for pensioners when they were working, so they didn't have to pay much to pensioners when they were working . . . then whinge about how poor pensions are when they're the ones claiming it and shaft the young.
Truly the most selfish generation that shafted their own parents and their own grandchildren, but keep repeating the bollocks about how much tax you paid.
You do realise 90% of boomers never went to university? Now about 40% of 18 year olds graduate from university.
They also paid into NI just as their parents did as well as private pension schemes for some. It was the government that broke the earnings link
You have two narrative strands to this post and I understand neither.
Comments
Is this you talking to trades persons or your car valet
https://pethelpful.com/exotic-pets/Bathing-Your-Ferret-The-Adventure
This website is more productive than arguing the toss about university education on PB,
My wife was a teacher; two year f/t course plus practical training; fortunately that was near the college I went to and that's how we got together!
None of the three of us have degrees! Although the NHS subsequently supported me in doing. a Management MA.
However my grandson did a completely different course; Sports Science degree and then on-the-job teacher training. He seems to be a good teacher; now doing a headship course.
Both my wife and I valued the experience of leaving home and meeting new people. As did my grandson,
I'd turn it around. As we become more prosperous (yes, yes, I know, but in the long run...) we have a choice as a soicety as to where to spend our surplus wealth over and above subsistence. I'd argue education is amongst the best ways to spend that money - not because it is a means to an end, but as an end in itself. (I would say that, I suppose, as a teacher).
That doesn't have to be university - in my view one of largely unnoticed negative impacts of the gutting of local authority budgets since 2008 has been the reduction or removal of adult education services, often serving a much broader swathe of the electorate than university does.
What would I have done? If tax was going up I would apply it to everyone equitably rather than age discriminate so only the graduates of the future pay the graduate tax while I keep my taxes nice and low. Or be understanding how good I had it, rather than expect ever more boons to be paid that weren't paid to prior generations and weren't saved for.
My dislike is of the consumerist culture of undergraduates, the poor quality of many courses and the post university culture of credentialism in which those without formal qualifications are sidelined.
The undergraduate polling above illustrates the problem of undergraduate consumerism. "Starbucks University" as an academic friend describes it, where students do not want to be challenged, but rather to proceed through three year of socialising, leaving with an entrance ticket to a white collar middle class job. A sort of middle class finishing school.
Other than technical or vocational courses no one actually uses their degree subject, but that doesn't mean that they don't gain advantage by it. Speaking bad Latin helps our PM present a simulacrum of intelligence to the gullible, but what else in his Classics degree do we see him use? Nothing!, but we do he see him constantly using the social skills polished in the Union, and the connections thereby made.
Mind you some of the critics do not seem to recognise that when Rishi broke the triple lock this year (£3.1% increase) the labour party furiously attacked the decision demanding the triple lock was not cancelled
The reintroduction of the triple lock next year puts the conservatives and labour parties on the same page and for those who attack the conservatives over the reinstatement maybe they need to find a voice of opposition elsewhere than in Westminster where it appears to be settled cross party policy
Thatcher appealled to the boomers votes to screw over the pensioners, because there weren't many pensioners back then and so the boomers didn't give a shit about them - despite the pensioners of their day being those who served in the war years etc.
Then the boomers when it came time to retire suddenly thought how critical good pensions were.
The politicians have spent most of the last fifty years appealling to boomers because that's where the votes are, and the boomers would rather vote themselves rich than give a fuck about their parents or their children or grandchildren.
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;"
It's easy to see why the creators of the US version would have dispensed with the sectarian qualification, as well as what I assume is a reference to class in "suitable to their conditions".
It's interesting that the English version has an explicit reference to the right being qualified by law. This is both a precedence for the US version, and also an argument that if they'd wanted the right to be limited by law they could have said so.
Take a look at your own family. Do you detect this relentless intergenerational screwing over going on? If yes, sympathy. If no, perhaps it's not what motivates other people either
For a start, under 50% of boomers voted for Thatcher, while I am bloody certain you would have done
Its worth remembering that standing armies were not wanted by the founding fathers.
This isn't just affecting Elon Musk, we've got stuff stuck in Chinese ports too. A real gummed up gear of the world economy, quite why I'm not sure - all the covid lockdowns there were over I thought.
https://jakubferencik.medium.com/how-crimea-changed-after-putins-annexation-in-2014-a14affe69923
I appreciate how it got me away from the limits of my local area. Mobility is one the critical side benefits of university. You are not limited by the opportunities offered by your home town and area, Hard to do that otherwise and really important for those unlucky enough to be born in area without opportunities, I got to work in New York for a bit. My best friend is from Manchester. My wife was born in Sydney. Hard to do that at the local firm even if it exists,
Give kids the choice.
Do Britons support or oppose the UK Government’s agreement with Rwanda to resettle in Rwanda some of the migrants who cross the Channel?
Support 42%
Oppose 28%
It certainly described and entrenched some sort of right to own weapons, but the maximalist readings the Supreme Court has been pumping out in recent years are pure political ideology and dismal jurisprudence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/23/britain-must-prepared-go-war-russia/
If labour had not been playing games with Rishi when he broke the lock this year and actually supported it and sought a change, then labour and their supporters would have a case but they didn't, indeed they furiously argue to retain it
So many on the left have no clue of what actual people think.
I got away for a few years, uni and that - I never intended to move back here permanently, but then life happened - and mixed and worked with people from around the country, from around Europe and beyond. It did me a lot of good.
I think it would be a poorer country if we cut numbers going to university, because it means fewer working-class kids going to university, less mixing with people beyond their milieu and a greater insularity. Which I guess is precisely what this government would like to see.
How do you propose people should treat reporting, since your general suggestion seems to be 'believe pessimistic stuff, dont believe optimistic stuff' which might end up closer to the truth sometimes but is no more based on any kind of logic. So So what's the answer for people who lack the means for time to become experts in every field of military endeavour and international relations? It's not to be cautious since you dont mind taking firm stances, so what?
Genuine question, as there's just no way for people to know everything and merely not trusting everything does not appear to be the answer.
I think there's more to rudeness than language, and I think there are other posters on here who are consistently more rude than Malcolm, despite using language more typically regarded as polite.
Just because both sides support it doesn't make those who simultaneously call for pay cuts for workers and a return of the TL any less self centered hypocrites
As far as the public sector pay rises are concerned there will be a settlement in the region of 5% subject to modernisation, and in the rail sector some redundancies
This then ends up with people who have degrees in Tibetan languages and Elamite Cuneiform having to justify these things by reference to how it is monetised.
This is a totally rubbish view of what the world is for. Yes, there are extrinsic values in education; but the fun and depth is all in the intrinsic value.
For instance, I am suspicious that a nursing degree does not produce a 'better' nurse than on the job vocational training. The same is true for many other degrees.
And your diversion tactic rather proves my point about hypocrites
I will be a beneficiary from next April but won't alter my opinion that workers deserve an inflation linked pay rise if pensioners do
For choice to be real, kids from families without a history of university education need encouragement and support to go to university.
The crazy property market which has been stoked and encouraged by previous assemblies has finally caught up with them and added to the cost of living issues resulted in a large amount of centre-left/left Deputies being elected. Quite unusual for Jersey.
The Reform Party who I think of as “soft Corbin” are the biggest single party with about 20% of seats (political parties are a relatively new thing in Jersey).
The Chief Minister and a number of other Ministers lost their seats and “None of the above” occupied the Lib Dems’ third place in many seats.
Its a good lesson for politicians that thinking there will always be enough people who are benefiting from the general wealth and won’t rock the boat by voting for a good dose of socialism works until there aren’t enough of those people and the middle classes can’t afford to buy or rent.
Coupled with a massive population problem (successive govts went for growth for growth’s sake) where now the EU taps are off for cheap hospitality staff etc the cost of living keeps shooting up - a cleaner costs at least £20 per hour and I saw a kitchen porter job being advertised yesterday for £35k p.a. Which obviously knocks on to all costs.
If it can happen in an ostensibly wealthy place like Jersey then it can happen in the UK and if the Tories don’t do anything to solve it before next election then it might not hurt Labour to be more bold and pursue an identifiably left wing agenda.
An Aspect of the North Shropshire result was credible Labour and Green totals. same failure to squeeze them in the more Johnsonite Devon seat may prove costly.
Maybe the Labour vote that got them second has a core more Corbynite than Starmerite, and not for squeezing? Has the Burgon Bus, with Sultana the hostess, and packed with dried old fruits, been down there?
Rishi cancelled the triple lock this year, and labour furiously attacked it rather than taking the sensible position that not only should it be cancelled this year, but reviewed for the following years
Labour played short term politics with the triple lock virtually assuring its continuance into the future
I can't read the paywalled article but could Con Coughlin, Defence Editor, have a tiny interest in, er, more defence spending?
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the uncanny resemblance between Coughlin and Peter Mannion?
On which basis, I hope things improve for you and you learn to hate your fellow human beings a little less.
There is some truth in that, but what matters as much, if not more, is training. To pick a concocted example, it is pointless in having 200 5th-gen fighters if you only have 50 pilots who get only 50 flight hours per year.
It's why you budget for people is as, if not more, important than your budget for kit. Sadly, shiny sells.
I do winder if Russia's big problem is that they've spent decades telling themselves they're the best, and have not made the effort to ensure that they are.
The average house price for a 2 bed in Jersey is now over £600k, hence it is closer to London prices than UK average prices and hence so many in Jersey like London rent. Labour won London even in 2019
@JohnRentoul
·
3m
Record Con➝Lib/Dem by-election swings:
Christchurch 1993 35%
N Shropshire 2021 34%
Sutton & Cheam 1972 33%
Newbury 1993 28%
Orpington 1962 26%
2/2
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1539882327995826181
https://twitter.com/markjenkinsonmp/status/1539136883678412800?s=20&t=eWy6VrF4voVRCNyydA80HA
The narrative that non-vocational degrees from non-Russell Group universities are not worth the paper they are written on is incredibly depressing. It is the ultimate suppression of everyone but the elite of the elite.
If 50% of the population choose to go to university to become a Barista rather than a Barrister, so be it.
A lot of the Russian equipment is pretty good. Or at least it was, before it was destroyed.
They also paid into NI just as their parents did as well as private pension schemes for some. It was the government that broke the earnings link
Now sadly removed if it was ever indeed in wiki. Where's your sense of fun Wikipedia?
Those options would not have been available, but for university!
Germany has more apprentices and fewer graduates than us and does fine
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/higher-apprenticeships-lead-greater-earnings-most-degrees
In reality, it seems he could not commit to attending enough sittings.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61869649
It may not be fair, but for whatever reason, employers want to see qualifications. To say to nurses who didn't go to university you don't get a degree would hinder their prospects.
And rental is even crazier with small market and ridiculously expensive so not a great alternative option.