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Savanta poll: By 58% to 35% the rail strikes are “justified” – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    There are 1000 ticket offices in England and 1 in 8 tickets is bought over the counter, as well as many other services like railcards.

    The online ticketing system is also riven with faults, including frequently more expensive tickets unless you really know your onions about circumventing it.

    Beeching also justified his cuts. The knock-on was the death of many rural communities and industries.
    I hate to break the news to you, but most of Beeching's cuts were justified. For every Waverley route that should not have been shut, there was a Wisbech and Upwell Tramway. Or a GNR Derby line. Or the Buxton - Ashbourne - Uttoxeter route. (*)

    Lines that are still loved, but were economic basket-cases.

    The world changes. Ticket offices prove useful to me on occasion, but their closure will not affect me or my travel that much.

    (*) Note: the much-loved Matlock to Buxton line - part of the Midland's route to Manchester - was not mentioned in the Beeching Cuts. But they closed it anyway because of internal railway politics... And thanks to Labour's Barbara Castle...
    Oh come on, JJ.

    Beeching completely failed to predict the rise of smartphones, and therefore the fact that stations would no longer need to be manned. If he'd had even a little bit of prescience, things might have been very different.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,320

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    There are 1000 ticket offices in England and 1 in 8 tickets is bought over the counter, as well as many other services like railcards.

    The online ticketing system is also riven with faults, including frequently more expensive tickets unless you really know your onions about circumventing it.

    Beeching also justified his cuts. The knock-on was the death of many rural communities and industries.
    I hate to break the news to you, but most of Beeching's cuts were justified. For every Waverley route that should not have been shut, there was a Wisbech and Upwell Tramway. Or a GNR Derby line. Or the Buxton - Ashbourne - Uttoxeter route. (*)

    Lines that are still loved, but were economic basket-cases.

    The world changes. Ticket offices prove useful to me on occasion, but their closure will not affect me or my travel that much.

    (*) Note: the much-loved Matlock to Buxton line - part of the Midland's route to Manchester - was not mentioned in the Beeching Cuts. But they closed it anyway because of internal railway politics... And thanks to Labour's Barbara Castle...
    Probably about 2/3rd were justified. He definitely overreached, as the reopenings in decades since have shown.

    And he was entirely unrepentant and wanted to go even further too - as late as the 1980s he was lamenting he couldn't close the line from Newcastle upon Tyne to Edinburgh on the basis it 'duplicated' the west coast main line through Carlisle and it'd only inconvenience Berwick upon Tweed.
  • Options
    jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 640

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Sure, Russia said a few days ago that Lithuania is not a real country, and also quite open about other ex-Soviet counties too. A clear threat to the independence of the Baltic States, and others such as the Caucuses.

    Arguably, goods in transit from one bit of Russia to another are not busting sanctions.

    Not sure how much military the Russians still have in Belarus and Kaliningrad, but attempting to take that railroad corridor would be a direct attack on a NATO member. It could get quite hairy indeed.

    In other news, the German artillery has arrived in Ukraine, quite a formidable capability.

    https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1539225560588734466?t=fnl4vvWVT36A4PmcWer6_w&s=19
    The only two reasons I can think of for Russia attacking NATO are that:

    1. The Russians conclude they will lose the war in Ukraine and they believe defeat against NATO is politically more survivable than defeat against Ukraine alone.

    2. The Russians convince themselves that NATO is even more of a Potemkin military than Russia and they can force NATO to stop supplying arms to Ukraine by exposing NATO weakness and division.
    Or a combination of both. A Russian invasion of Lithuania means we are at war with Russia. The US has stated that unequivocally an attack on Lithuania is an attack on all NATO members.

    The NATO force in Lithuania is mostly German. The British forces are in Estonia, I think.
    The NATO forces in the Baltics are very small. Maybe the Russians will convince themselves they have to defeat them now before they are reinforced.
    They maybe small, but they are there, and an attack on them would be quite the escalation, requiring air involvement to win.

    It is easy to see how this escalates if Putin attacks.
    If and when Russia attacks Lithuania, will fellow NATO member Turkey come to their aid? Seems unlikely.

    Heck, it isn’t that long ago since the President said the United States would not automatically defend the Baltic states from Russia if they were invaded.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-cast-doubt-on-the-baltics-involvement-in-nato-heres-what-they-actually-do/

    Turkey (or Turkiye) under Erdogan is proving to be an extremely unreliable ally. They appear to have acted in a deeply problematic manner over Finland and Sweden; only making its opposition to NATO membership for these countries known after they submitted their application. It does not bode well at all for the effectiveness and stability of the alliance.
    In fairness to Turkey, they have made their strong distaste for Sweden crystal clear in the last decade. And vice-versa. However, it is not a bilateral relationship which the rest of the planet has bothered paying much attention to. At least, not since the Great Northern War (1700–1721), the result of which arguably lies at the root of the current conflict.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
    I had no idea St Petersburg used to be Swedish.
    Oh yes. The history of the eastern Baltic is complex and fascinating.

    In fact, if you delve back into Russia’s early history, you could argue that they were a Nordic/Viking invention. Look at the etymology of “Rus”.

    Understandably, people in the Atlantic islands tend to be preoccupied with the Danish and Norwegian Viking exploits westwards, but the Swedish history into the deep east and south, all the way to Kiev and Constantinople is just as astonishing. They shaped the nascent Kiev and Rus identities.
    I was surprised to discover how active the Vikings were in Constantinople. As you say, they weren't just coastal raiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

    It seems we routinely underestimate the amount of trade there was around Europe even in ancient times. Whilst Jesus reaching our green and pleasant land is a little bit of a stretch, AIUI there are indications there was a healthy trade in tin back from the southwest back into the Bronze Age.

    Or gold from Cornwall to Ireland:
    https://digventures.com/2015/06/was-there-a-bronze-age-gold-rush-in-cornwall/
    The Sutton Hoo finds include items from Constantinople, which is unsurprising, as the evidence points to the ship and crew originating in Mälardalen, the region around what is now Stockholm. And at that time there were strong trading routes between what is now Sweden and Constantinople. The Sutton Hoo items just made it unusually far west.
    ISTR there was a Time Team from a bronze age or iron age site in Cornwall where they found an artefact from what is now Turkey.

    (This is where @Richard_Tyndall comes along and gives us chapter and verse...)
    This one?
    From Constantinople to Cornwall (Padstow, Cornwall) | S15E10 | Time Team
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6qQS3LL8k

    There is an accompanying commentary video at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gyxDkSmpo
    The trading is far older than that: flint from mines at Cissbury in Sussex and Grimes Graves in Norfolk has been found in Turkey.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Surely Putin (and his advisors, what’s left of them) isn’t stupid enough to actually attack a NATO country directly?

    Busting airspace is seriously pushing his luck, but he gives the impression of trying to provoke Lithuania into shooting it down, as his own excuse for attacking.

    He must know that the NATO response would be immediate and overwhelming, likely destroying anything militarily useful in Kaliningrad. Uncle Sam has a lot of attack drones these days, and won’t be too worried if a few get shot down.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    That’s what I was thinking.

    Incidentally, I note that Stockholm has now even removed the final ticket machines on the Metro. Ticketing is now 100% online, or simple card blipping.

    Cash is pretty much non-existent in Scandinavian society now, at least for those of working-age or younger. This really confused a group of elderly German tourists I spoke to last month. They just looked at me uncomprehendingly when I explained how we purchase goods and services.
    No, we don’t generally accept Euros. Heck, we don’t even generally accept Kronor.
    No, there is no Bureau de Change.
    No, that bank doesn’t hold any cash, it’s just an office for booked appointments for customers.
    The poor souls didn’t even have credit or debit cards on them.
    I feel genuinely sorry for the elderly. So many are just bewildered by how fast society is changing.

    I don’t believe our children have ever personally made a financial transaction in cash. Not that I’ve ever witnessed anyway.

    This seems to vary by country. Certainly when I visited Copenhagen in 2019 I didn't need any. Last week in Poland I was quite happily using plastic everywhere I went, but then crossed into Germany, where prices are higher, and found that people still default to cash. You can still pay by contact less in most places, but have to ask.
    When I visited Stokholm about 5 years ago, I got a couple of hundred pounds worth of cash, but really struggled to spend it (though Mrs Foxy proved capable of resolving the problem) as everywhere was contactless to pay.

    I posted here at the time how I thought national currencies were obsolete, as with contactless payments does it really mater if the purchase was in SKR, £ or €?

    I am off to Germany for a medical conference later this year, shall see if I need cash at all. The only time I use cash at the moment seems to be contributing to retirement/leaving/baby collections at work.
    When I spend time in Hong Kong, I no longer bother to exchange cash. Other than tipping at the hotel, where would I use it?
    And it is not as if the Chinese state has any sinister interest in tracking its citizens 24/7.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Heathener said:

    And how do the credit spend Gov't respond to soaring inflation?

    Announce another huge rise in State Pensions and Benefits.

    There are still some voters they are prepared to pander to.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    edited June 2022
    Dr. Foxy, and if the app goes down?

    Cyber warfare can do a lot of damage. It can't hack into a ten pound note, however.

    Edited extra bit: resilience against the likes of Russia isn't only energy security, it should be ensuring we can function as best as possible if they dick about with cyber crime.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    Have you ever tried using an app to purchase a ticket?

    I use Trainline, and it is bloody brilliant.
    No, I haven't. I'll take a look at it to see if it would make life easier.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,708

    Foxy said:
    I haven't been following this in detail, but everything I have heard has sounded completely insane.
    Best thing I saw the other day.

    The argument goes that "only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns." trope.
    There was a bad guy in the school with a gun.
    The police turned up, who had guns.
    They didn't stop the bad guy.
    Therefore, they can't be the good guys.

    I don't think NRA and conservative circles will like that one.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    There are 1000 ticket offices in England and 1 in 8 tickets is bought over the counter, as well as many other services like railcards.

    The online ticketing system is also riven with faults, including frequently more expensive tickets unless you really know your onions about circumventing it.

    Beeching also justified his cuts. The knock-on was the death of many rural communities and industries.
    I hate to break the news to you, but most of Beeching's cuts were justified. For every Waverley route that should not have been shut, there was a Wisbech and Upwell Tramway. Or a GNR Derby line. Or the Buxton - Ashbourne - Uttoxeter route. (*)

    Lines that are still loved, but were economic basket-cases.

    The world changes. Ticket offices prove useful to me on occasion, but their closure will not affect me or my travel that much.

    (*) Note: the much-loved Matlock to Buxton line - part of the Midland's route to Manchester - was not mentioned in the Beeching Cuts. But they closed it anyway because of internal railway politics... And thanks to Labour's Barbara Castle...
    Oh come on, JJ.

    Beeching completely failed to predict the rise of smartphones, and therefore the fact that stations would no longer need to be manned. If he'd had even a little bit of prescience, things might have been very different.
    A good point, well put. He also scandalously refused to accept the (at the time) old (*) concept of the Hyperloop, which could have used the winding routes so well...
    ;)

    (*) Yes, really. https://www.railway-technology.com/analysis/timeline-tracing-evolution-hyperloop-rail-technology/
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,320
    What really annoyed me about the closures is the short-sightedness of British Rail in selling off the land for redevelopment and to shed their legal liability for it, thus making future reopenings of many routes nigh impossible, in stark contrast to the policy in other countries, like France or Spain.

    Heads should roll for that.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    That’s what I was thinking.

    Incidentally, I note that Stockholm has now even removed the final ticket machines on the Metro. Ticketing is now 100% online, or simple card blipping.

    Cash is pretty much non-existent in Scandinavian society now, at least for those of working-age or younger. This really confused a group of elderly German tourists I spoke to last month. They just looked at me uncomprehendingly when I explained how we purchase goods and services.
    No, we don’t generally accept Euros. Heck, we don’t even generally accept Kronor.
    No, there is no Bureau de Change.
    No, that bank doesn’t hold any cash, it’s just an office for booked appointments for customers.
    The poor souls didn’t even have credit or debit cards on them.
    I feel genuinely sorry for the elderly. So many are just bewildered by how fast society is changing.

    I don’t believe our children have ever personally made a financial transaction in cash. Not that I’ve ever witnessed anyway.

    This seems to vary by country. Certainly when I visited Copenhagen in 2019 I didn't need any. Last week in Poland I was quite happily using plastic everywhere I went, but then crossed into Germany, where prices are higher, and found that people still default to cash. You can still pay by contact less in most places, but have to ask.
    When I visited Stokholm about 5 years ago, I got a couple of hundred pounds worth of cash, but really struggled to spend it (though Mrs Foxy proved capable of resolving the problem) as everywhere was contactless to pay.

    I posted here at the time how I thought national currencies were obsolete, as with contactless payments does it really mater if the purchase was in SKR, £ or €?

    I am off to Germany for a medical conference later this year, shall see if I need cash at all. The only time I use cash at the moment seems to be contributing to retirement/leaving/baby collections at work.
    For small, informal transactions like those, and jumble sales, car boot sales, snack stands at sporting events etc we use a wee app called Swish. It is so standard we now use it as a verb: “Jag swishar dig tjugo spänn.”
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Sure, Russia said a few days ago that Lithuania is not a real country, and also quite open about other ex-Soviet counties too. A clear threat to the independence of the Baltic States, and others such as the Caucuses.

    Arguably, goods in transit from one bit of Russia to another are not busting sanctions.

    Not sure how much military the Russians still have in Belarus and Kaliningrad, but attempting to take that railroad corridor would be a direct attack on a NATO member. It could get quite hairy indeed.

    In other news, the German artillery has arrived in Ukraine, quite a formidable capability.

    https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1539225560588734466?t=fnl4vvWVT36A4PmcWer6_w&s=19
    The only two reasons I can think of for Russia attacking NATO are that:

    1. The Russians conclude they will lose the war in Ukraine and they believe defeat against NATO is politically more survivable than defeat against Ukraine alone.

    2. The Russians convince themselves that NATO is even more of a Potemkin military than Russia and they can force NATO to stop supplying arms to Ukraine by exposing NATO weakness and division.
    Or a combination of both. A Russian invasion of Lithuania means we are at war with Russia. The US has stated that unequivocally an attack on Lithuania is an attack on all NATO members.

    The NATO force in Lithuania is mostly German. The British forces are in Estonia, I think.
    The NATO forces in the Baltics are very small. Maybe the Russians will convince themselves they have to defeat them now before they are reinforced.
    They maybe small, but they are there, and an attack on them would be quite the escalation, requiring air involvement to win.

    It is easy to see how this escalates if Putin attacks.
    If and when Russia attacks Lithuania, will fellow NATO member Turkey come to their aid? Seems unlikely.

    Heck, it isn’t that long ago since the President said the United States would not automatically defend the Baltic states from Russia if they were invaded.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-cast-doubt-on-the-baltics-involvement-in-nato-heres-what-they-actually-do/

    Turkey (or Turkiye) under Erdogan is proving to be an extremely unreliable ally. They appear to have acted in a deeply problematic manner over Finland and Sweden; only making its opposition to NATO membership for these countries known after they submitted their application. It does not bode well at all for the effectiveness and stability of the alliance.
    In fairness to Turkey, they have made their strong distaste for Sweden crystal clear in the last decade. And vice-versa. However, it is not a bilateral relationship which the rest of the planet has bothered paying much attention to. At least, not since the Great Northern War (1700–1721), the result of which arguably lies at the root of the current conflict.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
    I had no idea St Petersburg used to be Swedish.
    Oh yes. The history of the eastern Baltic is complex and fascinating.

    In fact, if you delve back into Russia’s early history, you could argue that they were a Nordic/Viking invention. Look at the etymology of “Rus”.

    Understandably, people in the Atlantic islands tend to be preoccupied with the Danish and Norwegian Viking exploits westwards, but the Swedish history into the deep east and south, all the way to Kiev and Constantinople is just as astonishing. They shaped the nascent Kiev and Rus identities.
    I was surprised to discover how active the Vikings were in Constantinople. As you say, they weren't just coastal raiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

    It seems we routinely underestimate the amount of trade there was around Europe even in ancient times. Whilst Jesus reaching our green and pleasant land is a little bit of a stretch, AIUI there are indications there was a healthy trade in tin back from the southwest back into the Bronze Age.

    Or gold from Cornwall to Ireland:
    https://digventures.com/2015/06/was-there-a-bronze-age-gold-rush-in-cornwall/
    The Sutton Hoo finds include items from Constantinople, which is unsurprising, as the evidence points to the ship and crew originating in Mälardalen, the region around what is now Stockholm. And at that time there were strong trading routes between what is now Sweden and Constantinople. The Sutton Hoo items just made it unusually far west.
    ISTR there was a Time Team from a bronze age or iron age site in Cornwall where they found an artefact from what is now Turkey.

    (This is where @Richard_Tyndall comes along and gives us chapter and verse...)
    This one?
    From Constantinople to Cornwall (Padstow, Cornwall) | S15E10 | Time Team
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6qQS3LL8k

    There is an accompanying commentary video at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gyxDkSmpo

    ETA not sure if it is the episode you have in mind but Tony Robinson introduces the dig with Turkish and African pottery. There might also be some flint knapping by one of @Leon's Cornish ancestors.
    Yep, I think that's the one.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    If The Trainlne still charge you a commission on all tickets sold, don't be ripped off. Simply use someone like LNER to buy the same tickets cheaper.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Brexit will cost UK workers 470 pounds a year

    Britain is becoming a more closed economy due to Brexit, with damaging long-term implications for productivity and wages which will leave the average worker 470 pounds ($577) a year poorer by the end of the decade, a study forecast on Wednesday.

    “… Brexit has had a more diffuse impact by reducing the UK's competitiveness and openness to trade with a wider range of countries. This will ultimately reduce productivity, and workers' real wages too…”

    The net effect of these [barriers] would lower productivity across the economy by 1.3% by 2030 compared with an unchanged trade relationship - translating to a 1.8% real-terms fall in annual pay of 470 pounds per worker.

    These figures do not include any assessment of the impact of changed migration rules.

    The impact for some sectors will be much starker. Britain's small but high profile fishing industry - many of whose members advocated strongly for Brexit - was likely to shrink by 30% due to difficulties exporting its fresh catch to EU customers, the report said.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/brexit-will-cost-uk-workers-470-pounds-year-study-predicts-2022-06-21/

    Brexit lurks in the background of everything in British politics right now. Why does the government feel that public sector pay must fall in real terms every year? Because it knows that there is no money because of Brexit. Especially as it is desperately shovelling its dwindling resources into protecting its elderly client vote from the economic carnage they voted for.
    There will be a reckoning for this. Working people are sick of being taken for fools.
    Will you be putting granny and grandad up against a wall?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    That’s what I was thinking.

    Incidentally, I note that Stockholm has now even removed the final ticket machines on the Metro. Ticketing is now 100% online, or simple card blipping.

    Cash is pretty much non-existent in Scandinavian society now, at least for those of working-age or younger. This really confused a group of elderly German tourists I spoke to last month. They just looked at me uncomprehendingly when I explained how we purchase goods and services.
    No, we don’t generally accept Euros. Heck, we don’t even generally accept Kronor.
    No, there is no Bureau de Change.
    No, that bank doesn’t hold any cash, it’s just an office for booked appointments for customers.
    The poor souls didn’t even have credit or debit cards on them.
    I feel genuinely sorry for the elderly. So many are just bewildered by how fast society is changing.

    I don’t believe our children have ever personally made a financial transaction in cash. Not that I’ve ever witnessed anyway.

    This seems to vary by country. Certainly when I visited Copenhagen in 2019 I didn't need any. Last week in Poland I was quite happily using plastic everywhere I went, but then crossed into Germany, where prices are higher, and found that people still default to cash. You can still pay by contact less in most places, but have to ask.
    When I visited Stokholm about 5 years ago, I got a couple of hundred pounds worth of cash, but really struggled to spend it (though Mrs Foxy proved capable of resolving the problem) as everywhere was contactless to pay.

    I posted here at the time how I thought national currencies were obsolete, as with contactless payments does it really mater if the purchase was in SKR, £ or €?

    I am off to Germany for a medical conference later this year, shall see if I need cash at all. The only time I use cash at the moment seems to be contributing to retirement/leaving/baby collections at work.
    For small, informal transactions like those, and jumble sales, car boot sales, snack stands at sporting events etc we use a wee app called Swish. It is so standard we now use it as a verb: “Jag swishar dig tjugo spänn.”
    MY former, and still informally associated, workplace uses GiftRound. Very useful for multisite working when one is trying to make cash collections.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,213
    Sandpit said:

    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Surely Putin (and his advisors, what’s left of them) isn’t stupid enough to actually attack a NATO country directly?

    Busting airspace is seriously pushing his luck, but he gives the impression of trying to provoke Lithuania into shooting it down, as his own excuse for attacking.

    He must know that the NATO response would be immediate and overwhelming, likely destroying anything militarily useful in Kaliningrad. Uncle Sam has a lot of attack drones these days, and won’t be too worried if a few get shot down.
    We had better hope so. But to be quite clear, it is Russia, not Lithuania that is escalating. Lithuania is simply demanding sanctions complience.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,213
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    Trainline is definitely your friend here. Also you can use it in, for example, France.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    Dr. Foxy, and if the app goes down?

    Cyber warfare can do a lot of damage. It can't hack into a ten pound note, however.

    Edited extra bit: resilience against the likes of Russia isn't only energy security, it should be ensuring we can function as best as possible if they dick about with cyber crime.

    Apps are reliable, and I have a physical card too.

    Electronic banking, electronic tickets, etc are taking over for the simple reasons that they are easier and better.

    Losing ticket offices is a problem for some disabled people, the blind for example don't find screens so useful, and similarly unmanned stations have issues of security and safety for vulnerable members of society too.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    Heathener said:

    And how do the credit spend Gov't respond to soaring inflation?

    Announce another huge rise in State Pensions and Benefits.

    Bollox, who knows what a future increase will be, another greedy no_Mark blaming pensioners
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Foxy said:
    I haven't been following this in detail, but everything I have heard has sounded completely insane.
    Best thing I saw the other day.

    The argument goes that "only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns." trope.
    There was a bad guy in the school with a gun.
    The police turned up, who had guns.
    They didn't stop the bad guy.
    Therefore, they can't be the good guys.

    I don't think NRA and conservative circles will like that one.
    The police properly screwed this one up, they were completely flat-footed when dealing with a situation to which they will have trained extensively to respond - presumably for fear of the situation becoming worse, even when it was clear that children were being killed inside the school.

    A very interesting case study, but sadly it looks like the police are closing ranks and frustrating independent investigators.

    The US is in a seriously bad place with regard to mental health in teenagers, led by social media and various drugs, both legal and illegal.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678
    edited June 2022

    What really annoyed me about the closures is the short-sightedness of British Rail in selling off the land for redevelopment and to shed their legal liability for it, thus making future reopenings of many routes nigh impossible, in stark contrast to the policy in other countries, like France or Spain.

    Heads should roll for that.

    But the Conservativews of the time demanded that such useless land be disposed of, state monolith, guided busways were so much superior, and all that. (Partly because some of them had shares in motorway and car industry companies.)

    There have also been a lot of disposals in recent years AIUI.

    Not disagreeing though with the basic premise.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620

    It had to happen eventually - I've caught Covid. Surprised not to have done so earlier, but, also, I'm glad that I didn't catch the vomiting virus that also spread at the wedding we went to last week.

    Both myself and my wife remain COVID free. I have no idea why.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    kjh said:

    It had to happen eventually - I've caught Covid. Surprised not to have done so earlier, but, also, I'm glad that I didn't catch the vomiting virus that also spread at the wedding we went to last week.

    Both myself and my wife remain COVID free. I have no idea why.
    Same here, when both of our offices have had the plague go around more than once.

    We both got some sort of an influenza virus a few weeks back, that knocked us for a few days - but we were repeatedly negative on Covid PCR tests.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kjh said:

    It had to happen eventually - I've caught Covid. Surprised not to have done so earlier, but, also, I'm glad that I didn't catch the vomiting virus that also spread at the wedding we went to last week.

    Both myself and my wife remain COVID free. I have no idea why.
    Maybe. Maybe not.

    I had zero symptoms. Only reason I tested myself was because of other family members.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Whatever the politics at play, it is pretty disgraceful that the Commonwealth Secretariat is suppressing an Independent review of its finances from the board of governors.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61889344
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,213
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    That’s what I was thinking.

    Incidentally, I note that Stockholm has now even removed the final ticket machines on the Metro. Ticketing is now 100% online, or simple card blipping.

    Cash is pretty much non-existent in Scandinavian society now, at least for those of working-age or younger. This really confused a group of elderly German tourists I spoke to last month. They just looked at me uncomprehendingly when I explained how we purchase goods and services.
    No, we don’t generally accept Euros. Heck, we don’t even generally accept Kronor.
    No, there is no Bureau de Change.
    No, that bank doesn’t hold any cash, it’s just an office for booked appointments for customers.
    The poor souls didn’t even have credit or debit cards on them.
    I feel genuinely sorry for the elderly. So many are just bewildered by how fast society is changing.

    I don’t believe our children have ever personally made a financial transaction in cash. Not that I’ve ever witnessed anyway.

    This seems to vary by country. Certainly when I visited Copenhagen in 2019 I didn't need any. Last week in Poland I was quite happily using plastic everywhere I went, but then crossed into Germany, where prices are higher, and found that people still default to cash. You can still pay by contact less in most places, but have to ask.
    My top tip for the next two decades: watch Poland. That place is on the up and up. Those people are truly astonishing. Ferociously ambitious, hard-working, proud, dependable, resilient, ruthless. Everything the English used to be.

    (Barring nuclear war of course, but then let’s face it, we’re all fucked.)
    Also deeply politically divided to an extent that the rule of law is being undermined. It's hard not to see that acting as a brake on economic development.
    I suspect recent events will put Poland and the other Visegrad countries much more firmly in the European camp. Possibly not Hungary.
    Ahem... *cough* Estonia. Highest PISA education rankings in the world, most digitally connected society in the world. Home of several class leading tech businesses. Population a fraction larger than Devon.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,942

    Good morning, everyone.

    The decline of cash is a bad thing.

    The invention benefited everyone, but the elimination makes it easier to track people, easier to surreptitiously tax them, and easier to steal from them (you notice if you lose a note from a wallet. But if your balance declines by the same amount with no warning sign, would you?). If your bank or phone is on the blink then paying can become impossible, even though you have the funds.

    I'm not opposed to using other methods, but the elimination of cash would be a very bad thing indeed.

    Just wait until the introduction of CBDC (central bank digital currencies).

    We already have programmable money (Ethereum and the like) but it's out of the hands of state actors.

    Programmable money created by state actors is terrifying. Imagine doing your weekly shop, but finding you can't buy alcohol because you've already exceeded your 30 unit weekly allowance. Or finding your ability to shop based on your carbon footprint - too many polluting items this week? Card declined! And so on.

    RCS is right, Monero as a privacy coin has huge value. But in general, the decline of cash is something to be concerned about, especially when countries around the world are looking at CBDCs.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    There are 1000 ticket offices in England and 1 in 8 tickets is bought over the counter, as well as many other services like railcards.

    The online ticketing system is also riven with faults, including frequently more expensive tickets unless you really know your onions about circumventing it.

    Beeching also justified his cuts. The knock-on was the death of many rural communities and industries.
    I hate to break the news to you, but most of Beeching's cuts were justified. For every Waverley route that should not have been shut, there was a Wisbech and Upwell Tramway. Or a GNR Derby line. Or the Buxton - Ashbourne - Uttoxeter route. (*)

    Lines that are still loved, but were economic basket-cases.

    The world changes. Ticket offices prove useful to me on occasion, but their closure will not affect me or my travel that much.

    (*) Note: the much-loved Matlock to Buxton line - part of the Midland's route to Manchester - was not mentioned in the Beeching Cuts. But they closed it anyway because of internal railway politics... And thanks to Labour's Barbara Castle...
    Probably about 2/3rd were justified. He definitely overreached, as the reopenings in decades since have shown.

    And he was entirely unrepentant and wanted to go even further too - as late as the 1980s he was lamenting he couldn't close the line from Newcastle upon Tyne to Edinburgh on the basis it 'duplicated' the west coast main line through Carlisle and it'd only inconvenience Berwick upon Tweed.
    I'd put it at much higher than two-thirds. At least 90% IMV.

    The problem with the 'reopenings' argument is that a) closures of lines not in Beeching continued into the early 1980s, and b) the few lines being reopened now did not have to be kept open for five decades at great cost.

    I like the railways. They're a pleasant way to travel, and a useful form of travel for millions of people. They also have a romance. But reopening arguments are hard to make for the vast majority of Beeching's closures (let alone those closed before), even with the increased populations in various areas and the doubling in rail travel over the last three decades.

    Take Cambridge to Oxford - EWR. The section reopened so far was an 'existing' line. The bit being worked on now from Bicester to Bedford was a mothballed route (the work is essentially a brand-new line on the old route).

    But they are planning to ignore the old route between Bedford and Cambridge, and instead taking a very different route that may take it past my village (yay!). The old route via Sandy is problematic to reopen, and the major population centres are now elsewhere.

    In fact, as well (or instead of) reopenings, perhaps we should be looking at where the population centres are in the modern world and planning brand-new routes to them. And after the problems with the misguided bus here in Cambridgeshire, trains or trams look like good options.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
    Yepp.

    The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries. The only country to receive less is South Africa, where state pension equals 17.1% of average incomes.

    https://www.businessforscotland.com/uk-state-pension-worst-in-developed-world-and-has-the-highest-retirement-age/?doing_wp_cron=1655881905.3476829528808593750000
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Sure, Russia said a few days ago that Lithuania is not a real country, and also quite open about other ex-Soviet counties too. A clear threat to the independence of the Baltic States, and others such as the Caucuses.

    Arguably, goods in transit from one bit of Russia to another are not busting sanctions.

    Not sure how much military the Russians still have in Belarus and Kaliningrad, but attempting to take that railroad corridor would be a direct attack on a NATO member. It could get quite hairy indeed.

    In other news, the German artillery has arrived in Ukraine, quite a formidable capability.

    https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1539225560588734466?t=fnl4vvWVT36A4PmcWer6_w&s=19
    The only two reasons I can think of for Russia attacking NATO are that:

    1. The Russians conclude they will lose the war in Ukraine and they believe defeat against NATO is politically more survivable than defeat against Ukraine alone.

    2. The Russians convince themselves that NATO is even more of a Potemkin military than Russia and they can force NATO to stop supplying arms to Ukraine by exposing NATO weakness and division.
    Or a combination of both. A Russian invasion of Lithuania means we are at war with Russia. The US has stated that unequivocally an attack on Lithuania is an attack on all NATO members.

    The NATO force in Lithuania is mostly German. The British forces are in Estonia, I think.
    The NATO forces in the Baltics are very small. Maybe the Russians will convince themselves they have to defeat them now before they are reinforced.
    They maybe small, but they are there, and an attack on them would be quite the escalation, requiring air involvement to win.

    It is easy to see how this escalates if Putin attacks.
    If and when Russia attacks Lithuania, will fellow NATO member Turkey come to their aid? Seems unlikely.

    Heck, it isn’t that long ago since the President said the United States would not automatically defend the Baltic states from Russia if they were invaded.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-cast-doubt-on-the-baltics-involvement-in-nato-heres-what-they-actually-do/

    Turkey (or Turkiye) under Erdogan is proving to be an extremely unreliable ally. They appear to have acted in a deeply problematic manner over Finland and Sweden; only making its opposition to NATO membership for these countries known after they submitted their application. It does not bode well at all for the effectiveness and stability of the alliance.
    In fairness to Turkey, they have made their strong distaste for Sweden crystal clear in the last decade. And vice-versa. However, it is not a bilateral relationship which the rest of the planet has bothered paying much attention to. At least, not since the Great Northern War (1700–1721), the result of which arguably lies at the root of the current conflict.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
    I had no idea St Petersburg used to be Swedish.
    Oh yes. The history of the eastern Baltic is complex and fascinating.

    In fact, if you delve back into Russia’s early history, you could argue that they were a Nordic/Viking invention. Look at the etymology of “Rus”.

    Understandably, people in the Atlantic islands tend to be preoccupied with the Danish and Norwegian Viking exploits westwards, but the Swedish history into the deep east and south, all the way to Kiev and Constantinople is just as astonishing. They shaped the nascent Kiev and Rus identities.
    I was surprised to discover how active the Vikings were in Constantinople. As you say, they weren't just coastal raiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

    It seems we routinely underestimate the amount of trade there was around Europe even in ancient times. Whilst Jesus reaching our green and pleasant land is a little bit of a stretch, AIUI there are indications there was a healthy trade in tin back from the southwest back into the Bronze Age.

    Or gold from Cornwall to Ireland:
    https://digventures.com/2015/06/was-there-a-bronze-age-gold-rush-in-cornwall/
    Asking out fragments
    The Sutton Hoo finds include items from Constantinople, which is unsurprising, as the evidence points to the ship and crew originating in Mälardalen, the region around what is now Stockholm. And at that time there were strong trading routes between what is now Sweden and Constantinople. The Sutton Hoo items just made it unusually far west.
    ISTR there was a Time Team from a bronze age or iron age site in Cornwall where they found an artefact from what is now Turkey.

    (This is where @Richard_Tyndall comes along and gives us chapter and verse...)
    This one?
    From Constantinople to Cornwall (Padstow, Cornwall) | S15E10 | Time Team
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6qQS3LL8k

    There is an accompanying commentary video at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gyxDkSmpo
    The trading is far older than that: flint from mines at Cissbury in Sussex and Grimes Graves in Norfolk has been found in Turkey.
    The conspiracy theorist in me visualises a certain PBer shaking out fragments of Great British Flint from holes in his trouser pockets on his travels.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited June 2022
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
    Oh indeed. When I was last with my parents, I got the train from Corby to St Pancras - and was told to buy one ticket from Corby to Bedford, and another from Bedford to London, to save £10 on a £50 ticket. That’s a good sign of a screwed-up system.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620

    kjh said:

    It had to happen eventually - I've caught Covid. Surprised not to have done so earlier, but, also, I'm glad that I didn't catch the vomiting virus that also spread at the wedding we went to last week.

    Both myself and my wife remain COVID free. I have no idea why.
    Maybe. Maybe not.

    I had zero symptoms. Only reason I tested myself was because of other family members.
    Possible, but both of us? We have also been largely free of the normal bugs. In the whole time I have only had 2 colds. However to make up for it I did manage to break my legs and catch a virus that paralysed one of my vocal cords temporarily (which was potentially serious).
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Vanilla has gone bonkers, so I’m giving up for the moment.

    Just in response to the Estonia comment: I concur.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Good morning

    Inflation rate is 9.1%

    Just the beginning old boy. Just the beginning.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    The Official Lib Dem twitter account tweeted. Frankly the Government and the RMT are as bad as each other. The country is sick of them playing politics with people's lives.

    Deleted within minutes but there for prosperity
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    Have you ever tried using an app to purchase a ticket?

    I use Trainline, and it is bloody brilliant.
    Ditto.

    Is there a term for fear of technology? If so, it seems to be rife.
    technophobia

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6770433/

    ... which is actyually relevant when it comes to closing ticket offices.

    Last time I was at Southampton airport I missed my train because the oldies in front of me couldn't cope with the single ticket machine that was working ...
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    And how do the credit spend Gov't respond to soaring inflation?

    Announce another huge rise in State Pensions and Benefits.

    Bollox, who knows what a future increase will be, another greedy no_Mark blaming pensioners
    Morning Malc. All well I hope with both you and your good lady!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
    Oh indeed. When I was last with my parents, I got the train from Corby to St Pancras - and was told to buy one ticket from Corby to Bedford, and another from Bedford to London, to save £10 on a £50 ticket. That’s a good sign of a screwed-up system.
    The reason for things like this is that the fare structure that exists today is the one that existed at the end of British Rail. Bedford is at the edge of the old Network Southeast area:

    https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/files/Map.pdf

    Corby to London would be considered a journey in the Long Distance sector and they were more expensive. So you're better off limiting the long distance part to Bedford and then you get the NSE price into London.

    The thing to remember is, your train has to stop where you split the ticket. Just looking at Corby to St Pancras and it appears that they all stop at Bedford, so it's a no-brainer. For other journeys (e.g. Bristol to Paddington splitting at Didcot), that might not always be the case. So the cheaper option with the split ticket might be quite a bit slower.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280
    Sky reporting a 4% pay rise has been tabled this morning by the employers subject to agreeing on modernisation and technology
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
    Oh indeed. When I was last with my parents, I got the train from Corby to St Pancras - and was told to buy one ticket from Corby to Bedford, and another from Bedford to London, to save £10 on a £50 ticket. That’s a good sign of a screwed-up system.
    Tickety split has got me a ticket to Dumfries in Scotland and back for less than £15 on 9th July.

    Or should I say tickets (7 to be precise)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Morning all. The part that seems to have really riled people in my parts is the closing of ticket offices.

    I'm not sure Boris Johnson will mind. He's hellbent on wargaming.

    Closing ticket offices? Welcome to the majority of the country, where there are no ticket offices.
    There are 1000 ticket offices in England and 1 in 8 tickets is bought over the counter, as well as many other services like railcards.

    The online ticketing system is also riven with faults, including frequently more expensive tickets unless you really know your onions about circumventing it.

    Beeching also justified his cuts. The knock-on was the death of many rural communities and industries.
    I hate to break the news to you, but most of Beeching's cuts were justified. For every Waverley route that should not have been shut, there was a Wisbech and Upwell Tramway. Or a GNR Derby line. Or the Buxton - Ashbourne - Uttoxeter route. (*)

    Lines that are still loved, but were economic basket-cases.

    The world changes. Ticket offices prove useful to me on occasion, but their closure will not affect me or my travel that much.

    I totally disagree with you but then you put economic profit above wellbeing.

    It's a grim dystopian utilitarian landscape compared with a vision of good sense and protecting all people. Yes it means a little less 'me me me': you yourself said it: it will not affect ME or MY. Many of us during the pandemic recalibrated our lives.

    Your kind of selfishness and self-centredness is part of what is plunging this country down the plughole.

    Karma bites and when it does it bites hard.
    I don't put 'economic profit' above wellbeing (which in itself is a rather subjective measure).

    But the world changes, and we have to evolve with it. To take your argument further: would you propose reopening ticket offices so there is one at every current station, just so it may help one person? Do you think all trains should have guards on, just in case passengers need help?

    As I keep on saying, the stupidity of the 'secondman' concept or the febrile opposition to DOO are examples where the left - usually so keen on dramatic revolution over evolution - prove to be rather conservative.

    And I said 'me' and 'my' as I can only speak for myself. If I'd said otherwise, I'd get accused of trying to speak for everyone...
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    Good morning

    Inflation rate is 9.1%

    Not quite "World beating" yet, but getting there.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited June 2022
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    Have you ever tried using an app to purchase a ticket?

    I use Trainline, and it is bloody brilliant.
    Ditto.

    Is there a term for fear of technology? If so, it seems to be rife.
    technophobia

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6770433/

    ... which is actyually relevant when it comes to closing ticket offices.

    Last time I was at Southampton airport I missed my train because the oldies in front of me couldn't cope with the single ticket machine that was working ...
    Aha! Of course.

    One common problem among us emigrants is that our vocabulary can have odd gaps. I’m having to google what things are called in English on a regular basis. And our family’s Swenglish is horrific: we must be incomprehensible sometimes to everyone who is not bilingual in those languages.

    Hope you made your plane!

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:

    Lithuania has blocked Russia from using its railways to ship coal, metals, electronics and other sanctioned goods to the military exclave of Kaliningrad

    https://t.co/sA1dHSJUyL

    Potentially quite an escalation in terms of NATO becoming directly involved.

    The escalation was Russia beginning moves to derecognise the independence of Lithuania. Given that there is a Russian military plan to use the railway to stage an occupation of Lithuania, Vilnius is quite right to keep any Russian activity out of its territory. Especially since all the Lithuanians are doing is insisting on sanctions compliance.
    Sure, Russia said a few days ago that Lithuania is not a real country, and also quite open about other ex-Soviet counties too. A clear threat to the independence of the Baltic States, and others such as the Caucuses.

    Arguably, goods in transit from one bit of Russia to another are not busting sanctions.

    Not sure how much military the Russians still have in Belarus and Kaliningrad, but attempting to take that railroad corridor would be a direct attack on a NATO member. It could get quite hairy indeed.

    In other news, the German artillery has arrived in Ukraine, quite a formidable capability.

    https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1539225560588734466?t=fnl4vvWVT36A4PmcWer6_w&s=19
    The only two reasons I can think of for Russia attacking NATO are that:

    1. The Russians conclude they will lose the war in Ukraine and they believe defeat against NATO is politically more survivable than defeat against Ukraine alone.

    2. The Russians convince themselves that NATO is even more of a Potemkin military than Russia and they can force NATO to stop supplying arms to Ukraine by exposing NATO weakness and division.
    Or a combination of both. A Russian invasion of Lithuania means we are at war with Russia. The US has stated that unequivocally an attack on Lithuania is an attack on all NATO members.

    The NATO force in Lithuania is mostly German. The British forces are in Estonia, I think.
    The NATO forces in the Baltics are very small. Maybe the Russians will convince themselves they have to defeat them now before they are reinforced.
    They maybe small, but they are there, and an attack on them would be quite the escalation, requiring air involvement to win.

    It is easy to see how this escalates if Putin attacks.
    If and when Russia attacks Lithuania, will fellow NATO member Turkey come to their aid? Seems unlikely.

    Heck, it isn’t that long ago since the President said the United States would not automatically defend the Baltic states from Russia if they were invaded.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-cast-doubt-on-the-baltics-involvement-in-nato-heres-what-they-actually-do/

    Turkey (or Turkiye) under Erdogan is proving to be an extremely unreliable ally. They appear to have acted in a deeply problematic manner over Finland and Sweden; only making its opposition to NATO membership for these countries known after they submitted their application. It does not bode well at all for the effectiveness and stability of the alliance.
    In fairness to Turkey, they have made their strong distaste for Sweden crystal clear in the last decade. And vice-versa. However, it is not a bilateral relationship which the rest of the planet has bothered paying much attention to. At least, not since the Great Northern War (1700–1721), the result of which arguably lies at the root of the current conflict.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
    I had no idea St Petersburg used to be Swedish.
    Oh yes. The history of the eastern Baltic is complex and fascinating.

    In fact, if you delve back into Russia’s early history, you could argue that they were a Nordic/Viking invention. Look at the etymology of “Rus”.

    Understandably, people in the Atlantic islands tend to be preoccupied with the Danish and Norwegian Viking exploits westwards, but the Swedish history into the deep east and south, all the way to Kiev and Constantinople is just as astonishing. They shaped the nascent Kiev and Rus identities.
    I was surprised to discover how active the Vikings were in Constantinople. As you say, they weren't just coastal raiders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

    It seems we routinely underestimate the amount of trade there was around Europe even in ancient times. Whilst Jesus reaching our green and pleasant land is a little bit of a stretch, AIUI there are indications there was a healthy trade in tin back from the southwest back into the Bronze Age.

    Or gold from Cornwall to Ireland:
    https://digventures.com/2015/06/was-there-a-bronze-age-gold-rush-in-cornwall/
    Asking out fragments
    The Sutton Hoo finds include items from Constantinople, which is unsurprising, as the evidence points to the ship and crew originating in Mälardalen, the region around what is now Stockholm. And at that time there were strong trading routes between what is now Sweden and Constantinople. The Sutton Hoo items just made it unusually far west.
    ISTR there was a Time Team from a bronze age or iron age site in Cornwall where they found an artefact from what is now Turkey.

    (This is where @Richard_Tyndall comes along and gives us chapter and verse...)
    This one?
    From Constantinople to Cornwall (Padstow, Cornwall) | S15E10 | Time Team
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6qQS3LL8k

    There is an accompanying commentary video at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gyxDkSmpo
    The trading is far older than that: flint from mines at Cissbury in Sussex and Grimes Graves in Norfolk has been found in Turkey.
    The conspiracy theorist in me visualises a certain PBer shaking out fragments of Great British Flint from holes in his trouser pockets on his travels.
    Not this chap, one hopes - but how can one be sure?

    'Dotchon showed Simpson his first flint arrow head and asked if he could copy it. Thus, Flint Jack was born.[2]

    In 1846, Jack began drinking heavily and is quoted as saying: "In this year, I took to drinking; the worst job yet [...].'[...]

    Probably no man is wider known [...] under his aliases in various districts.'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Simpson_(forger)
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    If The Trainlne still charge you a commission on all tickets sold, don't be ripped off. Simply use someone like LNER to buy the same tickets cheaper.

    Tickety split always cheaper in my experience
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    Have you ever tried using an app to purchase a ticket?

    I use Trainline, and it is bloody brilliant.
    Ditto.

    Is there a term for fear of technology? If so, it seems to be rife.
    technophobia

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6770433/

    ... which is actyually relevant when it comes to closing ticket offices.

    Last time I was at Southampton airport I missed my train because the oldies in front of me couldn't cope with the single ticket machine that was working ...
    Aha! Of course.

    One common problem among us emigrants is that our vocabulary can have odd gaps. I’m having to google what things are called in English on a regular basis. And our family’s Swenglish is horrific sometimes: we must be incomprehensible sometimes to everyone who is not bilingual in those languages.

    Hope you made your plane!

    No, I missed the train and had to wait an hour for the next.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    edited June 2022

    What really annoyed me about the closures is the short-sightedness of British Rail in selling off the land for redevelopment and to shed their legal liability for it, thus making future reopenings of many routes nigh impossible, in stark contrast to the policy in other countries, like France or Spain.

    Heads should roll for that.

    Was that not initiated under Thatcher ?
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.

    Remember, for all of SeanT's talk about being a hard-as-stone Cornishman, he was actually born in South Devon due to an accident of fate. So he is more cream tea than tin miner.

    I also detect a little Basil Fawlty in him ... ;)
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
    Oh indeed. When I was last with my parents, I got the train from Corby to St Pancras - and was told to buy one ticket from Corby to Bedford, and another from Bedford to London, to save £10 on a £50 ticket. That’s a good sign of a screwed-up system.
    Tickety split has got me a ticket to Dumfries in Scotland and back for less than £15 on 9th July.

    Or should I say tickets (7 to be precise)
    Where do you live, Carlisle?! The booking fees alone ...
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Yep it's a disgrace and I am a beneficiary but don't agree with it.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678
    edited June 2022

    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.

    Remember, for all of SeanT's talk about being a hard-as-stone Cornishman, he was actually born in South Devon due to an accident of fate. So he is more cream tea than tin miner.

    I also detect a little Basil Fawlty in him ... ;)
    Oh, there might be quite a bit of the Hams in him, is that what you are insinuating?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    I think the pain will be felt by everyone. Some may feel it more (in fact, they will), but we will all feel it.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    Energy and fuel prices driving it, that makes everything more expensive. Makes anything manufactured, stored or transported more expensive.

    I may have suggested a solution to this previously.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    RPi up to 11.7% from 11.1% and the RMT asking for 7% and rejecting 3% somehow makes them Marxists.

    BigG and Co are protected though
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Nigelb said:

    What really annoyed me about the closures is the short-sightedness of British Rail in selling off the land for redevelopment and to shed their legal liability for it, thus making future reopenings of many routes nigh impossible, in stark contrast to the policy in other countries, like France or Spain.

    Heads should roll for that.

    Was that not initiated under Thatcher ?
    God no. Sales of land happened immediately upon closure - and well before Beeching as well. The piecemeal selling off of land was a travesty. Though Derbyshire got it right, with their purchase of the Ashbourne and High Peak lines, which were converted into cycle paths in the 1970s.

    I believe in a couple of cases, the land was sold off *before* the line closed due to problems with closure notices...
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The machines are NOT the issue there. The fare structure is. I thought some years ago there was a pledge that such anomalies would be removed, but I don't think it has happened yet. I think partly this is due to peak/off peak regimes, so start during peak hours, pay a huge amount for the A to C trip, but do it A to B (peak) and then B to C (off peak, same journey) can give a reduced price. But it shouldn't.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:
    I haven't been following this in detail, but everything I have heard has sounded completely insane.
    Best thing I saw the other day.

    The argument goes that "only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns." trope.
    There was a bad guy in the school with a gun.
    The police turned up, who had guns.
    They didn't stop the bad guy.
    Therefore, they can't be the good guys.

    I don't think NRA and conservative circles will like that one.
    The police properly screwed this one up, they were completely flat-footed when dealing with a situation to which they will have trained extensively to respond - presumably for fear of the situation becoming worse, even when it was clear that children were being killed inside the school.

    A very interesting case study, but sadly it looks like the police are closing ranks and frustrating independent investigators.

    The US is in a seriously bad place with regard to mental health in teenagers, led by social media and various drugs, both legal and illegal.
    And a bad place with police.
    They are tooled up like private armies, but their priority seems to be preservation fo their safety rather than that of the public. The Texas case is an extreme example, but the characteristics are not atypical.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Sandpit said:

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    Energy and fuel prices driving it, that makes everything more expensive. Makes anything manufactured, stored or transported more expensive.

    I may have suggested a solution to this previously.
    There are quick solutions to it all but they're politically unpalatable. So sky high fuel it is.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    BTW, the legal aspect of railway land sales is interesting. In some cases, the original railway companies were leased the land - often for 999 years. As far as I am aware, that lease is still in effect in many cases (at least it has caused minor problems for some preserved railways).
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The Trainline App does that easily.

    The real problem with split ticketing is the absurdity of a pricing system that creates it in the first place.
    Oh indeed. When I was last with my parents, I got the train from Corby to St Pancras - and was told to buy one ticket from Corby to Bedford, and another from Bedford to London, to save £10 on a £50 ticket. That’s a good sign of a screwed-up system.
    Tickety split has got me a ticket to Dumfries in Scotland and back for less than £15 on 9th July.

    Or should I say tickets (7 to be precise)
    Where do you live, Carlisle?! The booking fees alone ...
    Ticket is from Hazel Grove to Dumfries via Preston and Carlisle on the way up and Carlisle Wigan Manchester on the way back..

    I do have a railcard so full adult cost would de about £23 I think
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,418

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    True, but the state pensioners now are the ones who voted for Thatcher from '79 onwards. The current stingy state pension follows on from policies of her governments.

    I have some sympathy, but fairly limited amounts.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176
    kjh said:

    It had to happen eventually - I've caught Covid. Surprised not to have done so earlier, but, also, I'm glad that I didn't catch the vomiting virus that also spread at the wedding we went to last week.

    Both myself and my wife remain COVID free. I have no idea why.
    Its certainly interesting. I'm in the same boat. There are a lot of theories. You may have a pre-existing immunity from another coronavirus. You may have had it completely asymptomatic. The vaccine may have induced a sufficient level of protection that you don't get sick. You may have not inhaled enough virus.

    There are studies looking at people who have not had covid, particularly NHS staff in the pre-vaccine period. One colleague was enrolled, but then just before the testing started she caught covid.

    You will probably fall like a domino eventually, not least because the variants keep coming, so if it is a pre-existing immunity, chances are it will get bypassed eventually.

    For now - enjoy it. Of those i know who have had it, there has been a wide range of responses.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280
    edited June 2022

    RPi up to 11.7% from 11.1% and the RMT asking for 7% and rejecting 3% somehow makes them Marxists.

    BigG and Co are protected though

    The new offer is 4% this morning, but if the triple lock is reintroduced next year it will be equivalent of £960 on the pension of just £9,600 increasing their income to 10,560 pa and you want to demonise them

    Yes, many pensioners have saved into private pensions and the assets in their homes are a cushion in future care and nursing fees which otherwise would fall on the exchequer or provides for their children and grandchildren
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,176

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
    Yepp.

    The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries. The only country to receive less is South Africa, where state pension equals 17.1% of average incomes.

    https://www.businessforscotland.com/uk-state-pension-worst-in-developed-world-and-has-the-highest-retirement-age/?doing_wp_cron=1655881905.3476829528808593750000
    Does that include pension credit and other benefits though?
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    True, but the state pensioners now are the ones who voted for Thatcher from '79 onwards. The current stingy state pension follows on from policies of her governments.

    I have some sympathy, but fairly limited amounts.
    They also voted for Brexit. And yet ... "The Resolution Foundation thinktank and academics from the London School of Economics said the average worker in Britain was now on course to suffer more than £470 in lost pay each year by 2030 after rising living costs are taken into account, compared with a remain vote in 2016." Of course, stuff the workers - the pensioners are OK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/22/brexit-is-making-cost-of-living-crisis-worse-new-study-claims
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796

    If The Trainlne still charge you a commission on all tickets sold, don't be ripped off. Simply use someone like LNER to buy the same tickets cheaper.

    Personally I've found the commission on thetrainline is an acceptable price to pay for not having to mess around with individual train operating company websites. They seem to be ridden with errors, ive had lots of failed bookings, lost logins etc, disappearing tickets etc.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,808
    Carnyx said:

    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.

    Remember, for all of SeanT's talk about being a hard-as-stone Cornishman, he was actually born in South Devon due to an accident of fate. So he is more cream tea than tin miner.

    I also detect a little Basil Fawlty in him ... ;)
    Oh, there might be quite a bit of the Hams in him, is that what you are insinuating?
    He often flip-flops so maybe he has a Plym soul?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678
    Pro_Rata said:

    Carnyx said:

    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.

    Remember, for all of SeanT's talk about being a hard-as-stone Cornishman, he was actually born in South Devon due to an accident of fate. So he is more cream tea than tin miner.

    I also detect a little Basil Fawlty in him ... ;)
    Oh, there might be quite a bit of the Hams in him, is that what you are insinuating?
    He often flip-flops so maybe he has a Plym soul?
    Wouldn't have the Tamarity to suggest that.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,104

    Brexit will cost UK workers 470 pounds a year

    Britain is becoming a more closed economy due to Brexit, with damaging long-term implications for productivity and wages which will leave the average worker 470 pounds ($577) a year poorer by the end of the decade, a study forecast on Wednesday.

    “… Brexit has had a more diffuse impact by reducing the UK's competitiveness and openness to trade with a wider range of countries. This will ultimately reduce productivity, and workers' real wages too…”

    The net effect of these [barriers] would lower productivity across the economy by 1.3% by 2030 compared with an unchanged trade relationship - translating to a 1.8% real-terms fall in annual pay of 470 pounds per worker.

    These figures do not include any assessment of the impact of changed migration rules.

    The impact for some sectors will be much starker. Britain's small but high profile fishing industry - many of whose members advocated strongly for Brexit - was likely to shrink by 30% due to difficulties exporting its fresh catch to EU customers, the report said.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/brexit-will-cost-uk-workers-470-pounds-year-study-predicts-2022-06-21/

    Brexit lurks in the background of everything in British politics right now. Why does the government feel that public sector pay must fall in real terms every year? Because it knows that there is no money because of Brexit. Especially as it is desperately shovelling its dwindling resources into protecting its elderly client vote from the economic carnage they voted for.
    There will be a reckoning for this. Working people are sick of being taken for fools.
    Will you be putting granny and grandad up against a wall?
    Difficult as they are all dead. And in any case, my only living grandparent in 2016 voted Remain so she's off the hook.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Morning all.

    At Gatwick. Mask wearing well under 10%. Could be under 1%.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    Energy and fuel prices driving it, that makes everything more expensive. Makes anything manufactured, stored or transported more expensive.

    I may have suggested a solution to this previously.
    There are quick solutions to it all but they're politically unpalatable. So sky high fuel it is.
    What’s so politically unpalatable about dropping 62p off the price of a litre?

    It costs £2bn a month, but would also reduce inflation for the government by a substantial amount.

    Not only that, it would screw the Opposition, who would be torn between helping with the cost of living, and pleasing the metropolitan greenie activists who think expensive petrol is good thing.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    "Boris Johnson has insisted ministers stay out of any pay negotiations for public sector workers"

    Telegraph.

  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    True, but the state pensioners now are the ones who voted for Thatcher from '79 onwards. The current stingy state pension follows on from policies of her governments.

    I have some sympathy, but fairly limited amounts.
    Blair/Labour were in office for 13 years from 1997-2010
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    Also remember that the triple lock was suspended this year, so the pensioners have had one below-inflation rise already.

    Those complaining about pensions going up next year, often forget about this.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    True, but the state pensioners now are the ones who voted for Thatcher from '79 onwards. The current stingy state pension follows on from policies of her governments.

    I have some sympathy, but fairly limited amounts.

    Blair/Labour were in office for 13 years from 1997-2010
    He was a Thatcherite anyway in many ways, to get you to vote for him! And the blue Tories were in power for 11 years before and 12 and counting since.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    Sandpit said:

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    Also remember that the triple lock was suspended this year, so the pensioners have had one below-inflation rise already.

    Those complaining about pensions going up next year, often forget about this.
    I don't think anyone is complaining about pensioners with just the state pension getting an appropriate payrise.

    The issue is that public sector workers won't be getting anything like the same 10%.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    edited June 2022

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    Undoubtedly - but that is a very similar same wage as my neighbour who is working almost full time as a teaching assistant, has a 2 year old son, and is paying off a mortgage.

    Another thing is that low income pensioners get pension credit to cover housing expenses. Not so if you are a young low income homeowner.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,525

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
    Yepp.

    The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries. The only country to receive less is South Africa, where state pension equals 17.1% of average incomes.

    https://www.businessforscotland.com/uk-state-pension-worst-in-developed-world-and-has-the-highest-retirement-age/?doing_wp_cron=1655881905.3476829528808593750000
    What isn't easy to comprehend is the relationship between this claim about how terrible our state pensions are, and the regular claim that pensioners' Tory votes are what keep them in a privileged position, rolling in wads of state cash and lightly taxed.

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    RPi up to 11.7% from 11.1% and the RMT asking for 7% and rejecting 3% somehow makes them Marxists.

    BigG and Co are protected though

    The new offer is 4% this morning, but if the triple lock is reintroduced next year it will be equivalent of £960 on the pension of just £9,600 increasing their income to 10,560 pa and you want to demonise them

    Yes, many pensioners have saved into private pensions and the assets in their homes are a cushion in future care and nursing fees which otherwise would fall on the exchequer or provides for their children and grandchildren
    Private (and occupational) pensions?

    Boomers have already emptied the pot, so those that follow do so on vastly inferior terms.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280
    Sandpit said:

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    Also remember that the triple lock was suspended this year, so the pensioners have had one below-inflation rise already.

    Those complaining about pensions going up next year, often forget about this.
    3.1% rise in the pension for year 22-23
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,678
    algarkirk said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
    Yepp.

    The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries. The only country to receive less is South Africa, where state pension equals 17.1% of average incomes.

    https://www.businessforscotland.com/uk-state-pension-worst-in-developed-world-and-has-the-highest-retirement-age/?doing_wp_cron=1655881905.3476829528808593750000
    What isn't easy to comprehend is the relationship between this claim about how terrible our state pensions are, and the regular claim that pensioners' Tory votes are what keep them in a privileged position, rolling in wads of state cash and lightly taxed.

    That;s what happens when you demonise pensions as "benefits" and "scrounging" for decades. You end up demonising your own clients.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    True, but the state pensioners now are the ones who voted for Thatcher from '79 onwards. The current stingy state pension follows on from policies of her governments.

    I have some sympathy, but fairly limited amounts.
    Blair/Labour were in office for 13 years from 1997-2010
    And?

    The Tories were in power from 1979 to 1997 (18 years)
    And from 2010 to now (12 years)

    So for 30 of the past 43 years and all of the lost 12 years the Tory party could have corrected any mistakes the Labour Government made from 1997 to 2010.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,280

    RPi up to 11.7% from 11.1% and the RMT asking for 7% and rejecting 3% somehow makes them Marxists.

    BigG and Co are protected though

    The new offer is 4% this morning, but if the triple lock is reintroduced next year it will be equivalent of £960 on the pension of just £9,600 increasing their income to 10,560 pa and you want to demonise them

    Yes, many pensioners have saved into private pensions and the assets in their homes are a cushion in future care and nursing fees which otherwise would fall on the exchequer or provides for their children and grandchildren
    Private (and occupational) pensions?

    Boomers have already emptied the pot, so those that follow do so on vastly inferior terms.
    In my case it was my company pension and I remained in serps which was a very sensible decision
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The decline of cash is a bad thing.

    The invention benefited everyone, but the elimination makes it easier to track people, easier to surreptitiously tax them, and easier to steal from them (you notice if you lose a note from a wallet. But if your balance declines by the same amount with no warning sign, would you?). If your bank or phone is on the blink then paying can become impossible, even though you have the funds.

    I'm not opposed to using other methods, but the elimination of cash would be a very bad thing indeed.

    I have an account with Starling (which doesn't charge commission on foreign currency purchases) which sends me notifications for even very modest transactions. Far more information than simply looking in my wallet to see what's left. Interesting budgeting software as part of the App too.
    Same here, using Revolut.

    When I was last in Thailand, saved serious money on the hotel bill - they were offering FX with no commission etc and a very small number of basis points off the market. They were much cheaper than the official money change places - which have a rep for good rates for cash.

    The alt-banks are going to nuke the high street banks.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045
    Carnyx said:

    Oh god, they said “flint”. Dildo Sean will be along any minute.

    The word Cornwall didn’t help either.

    Remember, for all of SeanT's talk about being a hard-as-stone Cornishman, he was actually born in South Devon due to an accident of fate. So he is more cream tea than tin miner.

    I also detect a little Basil Fawlty in him ... ;)
    Oh, there might be quite a bit of the Hams in him, is that what you are insinuating?
    The gammon certainly.

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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    On booking offices, the only time I use them is to buy a ticket that the machine won't sell me. We can use our Network Railcards (1/3 off journeys in the old Network Southeast area) from 10am. But I can't buy a ticket from a machine until 10am, and so I can't catch the 10am to London. But the booking office will sell me a ticket at 09:55.

    The machines are also a pain in the arse if you want to buy two tickets - one from A to B, and another from B to C, because doing so is cheaper than buying a ticket from A to C directly.
    The machines are NOT the issue there. The fare structure is. I thought some years ago there was a pledge that such anomalies would be removed, but I don't think it has happened yet. I think partly this is due to peak/off peak regimes, so start during peak hours, pay a huge amount for the A to C trip, but do it A to B (peak) and then B to C (off peak, same journey) can give a reduced price. But it shouldn't.
    Use brfares.com to have a play with ticket options. Some of the rail operators (I'm looking at you CrossCountry use stupid prices, so if you can find a fare set by another operator (eg TransPennine Express) that covers the same route / same train it will be cheaper and/or less restrictive.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Time to put the Brexiteer leaders against the wall....they've landed the UK in the shit and as predicted it's now being felt big time. It's even started leading the news so a couple more years and the Hartlepudlians will notice and then the Tories are fucked.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Some relief on inflation coming ?

    https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/brn00?countrycode=uk

    Brent crude off 5%.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,525
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    I found this table on state pension rises. If you look at it, the state pension has cumulatively risen by around 45% over 11 years. Whereas, as I understand it, public sector pay rises have been frozen at 0.5 - 1% for the whole time. What is explosive is the prospective April 2023 rise to the state pension, if it is CPI, it could be 10%.

    The government make things worse by just going on about how people must 'take the pain' etc. They have just themselves to blame. There was bound to be a eventual reckoning for such a divisive and unfair policy.

    State pension triple lock: rises since 2011
    Financial year State pension rise Based on
    2011/12 4.6% RPI
    2012/13 5.2% CPI
    2013/14 2.5% 2.5%
    2014/15 2.7% CPI
    2015/16 2.5% 2.5%
    2016/17 2.9% Earnings
    2017/18 2.5% 2.5%
    2018/19 3% CPI
    2019/20 2.6% Earnings
    2020/21 3.9% Earnings
    2021/22 2.5% 2.5%
    2022/23 3.1% CPI

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/state-pension-increase/

    While that's true, it's worth seeing it in the wider context of the erosion in value of the state pension since Thatcher removed the link to earnings.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

    It would be interesting to see the FT chart updated with the latest figures.
    Yes, by far the lowest pension in the developed world. But Tories like the poster try to make out pensioners are living the high life on a posh 9o after paying in for 50 years, pathetic.
    Yepp.

    The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries. The only country to receive less is South Africa, where state pension equals 17.1% of average incomes.

    https://www.businessforscotland.com/uk-state-pension-worst-in-developed-world-and-has-the-highest-retirement-age/?doing_wp_cron=1655881905.3476829528808593750000
    What isn't easy to comprehend is the relationship between this claim about how terrible our state pensions are, and the regular claim that pensioners' Tory votes are what keep them in a privileged position, rolling in wads of state cash and lightly taxed.

    That;s what happens when you demonise pensions as "benefits" and "scrounging" for decades. You end up demonising your own clients.
    A bit of "Who? Whom?" unravelling needed here for this.

  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The decline of cash is a bad thing.

    The invention benefited everyone, but the elimination makes it easier to track people, easier to surreptitiously tax them, and easier to steal from them (you notice if you lose a note from a wallet. But if your balance declines by the same amount with no warning sign, would you?). If your bank or phone is on the blink then paying can become impossible, even though you have the funds.

    I'm not opposed to using other methods, but the elimination of cash would be a very bad thing indeed.

    I have an account with Starling (which doesn't charge commission on foreign currency purchases) which sends me notifications for even very modest transactions. Far more information than simply looking in my wallet to see what's left. Interesting budgeting software as part of the App too.
    Same here, using Revolut.

    When I was last in Thailand, saved serious money on the hotel bill - they were offering FX with no commission etc and a very small number of basis points off the market. They were much cheaper than the official money change places - which have a rep for good rates for cash.

    The alt-banks are going to nuke the high street banks.
    I use Monzo which is similar again, as my day-to-day 'wallet'. The interface and service is far, far better than the traditional High Street bank accounts I still use - and easier and safer than cash.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Sandpit said:

    So is it CPI that is 9.1%? And that excludes housing cost inflation?

    Christ.

    It is going higher still so a lot of pain ahead
    Pain felt by younger working people and not the asset classes or the retired.
    Many pensioners receive the state pension of just £9,600 pa and are really hurting
    Also remember that the triple lock was suspended this year, so the pensioners have had one below-inflation rise already.

    Those complaining about pensions going up next year, often forget about this.
    I wonder if those complaining about potential pay rises remember previous below inflation pay rises and regular pay freezes over the last decade?
This discussion has been closed.