Voting intention – the educational divide – politicalbetting.com

System

Voting intention – the educational divide – politicalbetting.com

As far as I can see Ipsos is the only pollster that screens its samples by educational attainment and I have been meaning to produce a chart like this for months. This is based on yesterday’s poll.

Read the full story here

tlg86

First (unlike my degree classification!)

Sandpit

Desmond.

Carnyx

Hmm. Tories are a bunch of NEETs or NEDs?

There is a correlation of course between age and % at university ...

TheScreamingEagles

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

TheScreamingEagles

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Taz

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Why should they when they’re on their PlayStations all day !

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

I thought lawyers had always voted Tory?

TheScreamingEagles

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

I thought lawyers had always voted Tory?

When I were a lad, the legal professions most prominent members voted Labour.

dixiedean

Surprised the LD's do better.with the lowest group. (Pictorially).
Not used to complex decision making?

Leon

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

HYUFD

Neither Tiverton and Honiton nor Wakefield have a particularly high number of graduates and Wakefield was 66% Leave and Mid Devon was 53% Leave.

So if Starmer gains Wakefield he can finally say Labour is regaining some of the redwall, while if the LDs win Tiverton and Honiton it will show, like North Shropshire, it can win by elections in Leave as well as Remain areas

dixiedean

That bottom group is tiny though in comparison.
What, exactly, constitutes "no qualifications"?

GaryL

remember most current OAPs didnt go to university though...its the age gap that is the salient one with the over 65s voting Tory due to experiencing a goldilocks combination for them of low inflation and rising asset prices over the last 10 to 20 years

MoonRabbit

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Cameron of course won graduates in 2010 and 2015 and did best with ABs and high earners and Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown won DEs. You were happy to vote Tory when they won the posh vote.

Now Boris does best with the unskilled and skilled working class C2s it is no surprise you have switched to the LDs, who still do best with graduates and posh ABs so you do not have to vote for the same party as oiks!

IshmaelZ

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Not been a great year for privately educated poshbois of subcontinental heritage either, mind.

Carnyx

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Cameron of course won graduates in 2015 and did best with ABs and high earners and Ed Miliband won DEs. You were happy to vote Tory when they won the posh vote.

Now Boris does best with the unskilled and skilled working class C2s it is no surprise you have switched to the LDs, who still do best with graduates and posh ABs so you do not have to vote for the same parties as oiks!

Yes, but you keep telling us you approve of schools and unis who do their damnedest to keep oiks out. Are you a closet LD as well as PC voter?

HYUFD

Carnyx said:

Hmm. Tories are a bunch of NEETs or NEDs?

There is a correlation of course between age and % at university ...

Indeed, the Tories still won over 55 graduates 49% to 24% for Labour in 2019, even if Labour won 56% of 18 to 34 graduates to 21% for the Tories

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

GaryL

always remember though people vote their interests...as high inflation takes hold and reduces their standard of living i think even the OAPS will start to find Boris a little less loveable

TheScreamingEagles

IshmaelZ said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Not been a great year for privately educated poshbois of subcontinental heritage either, mind.

It's been a great year for me.

Could get even better in the next eight days.

Work has been stressful though, I've actually been on the phone with the good people at OFSI than I have spoken to my own colleagues/family since February.

Foxy

Carnyx said:

Hmm. Tories are a bunch of NEETs or NEDs?

There is a correlation of course between age and % at university ...

It isn't the explanation for the education/affiliation correlation:

algarkirk

How would these figures turn into actual results in actual places like, say, Bootle (Lab maj 34,000) and South Holland (Tory majority 31,000)?

Jonathan

The generation game.

IshmaelZ

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

HYUFD

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The thing that really upsets me is that the great unwashed vote Tory now.

Lazy working class gits who think the world owes them a living. Get on your bike.

Cameron of course won graduates in 2015 and did best with ABs and high earners and Ed Miliband won DEs. You were happy to vote Tory when they won the posh vote.

Now Boris does best with the unskilled and skilled working class C2s it is no surprise you have switched to the LDs, who still do best with graduates and posh ABs so you do not have to vote for the same parties as oiks!

Yes, but you keep telling us you approve of schools and unis who do their damnedest to keep oiks out. Are you a closet LD as well as PC voter?

No, although I did vote LD as my second preference in the PCC election last year having voted for the Conservative candidate as my first preference.

If we had AV or STV or supplementary vote, the LDs would normally be my second preference

SeaShantyIrish2

In USA difference in polling between college-educated (partial to post-doc) and non-college women is significant, esp. for older woman. With former tending to be more Democratic while later are (in relative terms anyway) more Republican. Similar pattern re: abortion and Roe v Wade.

Esp. important in suburban districts (state & federal) where these differences can make the difference between winning or losing close races. Will be interesting to see IF either Oz or McCormick (or Barnette) benefitted or/and suffered from this factor (and others) based on demographic analysis. Say by cross-referencing the voter registration file with census data and P22 precinct-level results.

Edit - Analysis which is being done as I type this drivel by teams of crack(ed) psephologists and other highly-skilled professional hacks, working away on behalf of the TV Healer-Trumper AND the Billionaire Hedge-Funder.

HYUFD

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

In USA difference in polling between college-educated (partial to post-doc) and non-college women is significant, esp. for older woman. With former tending to be more Democratic while later are (in relative terms anyway) more Republican. Similar pattern re: abortion and Roe v Wade.

Esp. important in suburban districts (state & federal) where these differences can make the difference between winning or losing close races. Will be interesting to see IF either Oz or McCormick (or Barnette) benefitted or/and suffered from this factor (and others) based on demographic analysis. Say by cross-referencing the voter registration file with census data and P22 precinct-level results.

Yes, in 2020 Biden won 54% of white women with college degrees but Trump won 67% of white women without college degrees.

Overall, Biden won 51% of white college graduates and 71% of non whites, while Trump won 67% of white voters without degrees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election

dixiedean

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Applicant

Ah, I see we're still doing articles about education without mentioning age.

Foxy

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

TimS

HYUFD said:

Neither Tiverton and Honiton nor Wakefield have a particularly high number of graduates and Wakefield was 66% Leave and Mid Devon was 53% Leave.

So if Starmer gains Wakefield he can finally say Labour is regaining some of the redwall, while if the LDs win Tiverton and Honiton it will show, like North Shropshire, it can win by elections in Leave as well as Remain areas

53% leave isn’t very leave though, really. Only 1% ahead of the national vote and slightly more remain than the English average. Given polling and demographic shifts since then it’s probably marginally pro-remain now.

I think a Lib Dem victory would show the Tories losing the farming vote though. As did NS. If you’re working in agriculture right now the government doesn’t offer you much to vote for. Reduced and more complex subsidies, shortages of migrant labour, massive inflation in fuel and fertilisers, the threat of undercutting imports.

Foxy

Applicant said:

Ah, I see we're still doing articles about education without mentioning age.

As I posted above, the relationship is true at all ages, though the proportions in each age group by education obviously add complexity.

The table I posted comes from this article:

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

Stuartinromford

Looking at those groups, the key thing looks like its no qualifications vs. some qualifications rather than graduate vs. non-graduate.

That must correlate massively with fairly old age. The school leaving age was raised to 16 from 1972 (so DOB from 1956, so aged 66 now) and people had to stay on to sit their GCSE exams since 1998 (yes! 1998. So they would be aged 40 now.) Nobody has left school with nothing at all for quite a while now.

If the Conservative appeal is principally to those who left school with no certificates at all, then they are stuffed, and pretty soon.

EPG

Applicant said:

Ah, I see we're still doing articles about education without mentioning age.

The data probably aren't available, and it doesn't really matter in the cross-section for any given year.

dixiedean

All these oldies with no qualifications whatsoever will be a product of the Secondary Modern system so beloved by many on here.

Leon

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

MoonRabbit

GaryL said:

always remember though people vote their interests...as high inflation takes hold and reduces their standard of living i think even the OAPS will start to find Boris a little less loveable

If you are living rurally using oil wondering why it’s not covered by the energy price cap. The Tories can do this tomorrow. They should have done it by now! But it they announce that in this by election campaign it will help their vote I’m sure.

I wondered on the last thread, no one took it up, if the Tories hold Tivi because many feeling previous MP was unfairly hounded out?

MaxPB

Lots of chatter coming from the US that they're about to tell the EU to make the "deal that's available" on NI and stop bitching about it because they don't see the UK position moving at all and now there's a potential threat to western unity and violence breaking out in NI.

I get the feeling that within a few weeks we'll get a lot of behind the scenes movement and around September a new agreement will be revealed that the DUP still aren't on board with but will satisfy most concerns and take the heat out of it all.

My guess is that the agreement will be something like 70-80% of what the UK wants but fall down on key areas like ECJ jurisdiction because NI companies will need the ECJ as a final court of arbitration participate in the single market.

Foxy

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

I drink both alcohol and coffee, but do recognise their downsides as well as benefits.

Scott_xP

MaxPB said:

Lots of chatter coming from the US that they're about to tell the EU to make the "deal that's available" on NI

They made the deal that was available.

And now BoZo wants to fuck it all up.

SeaShantyIrish2

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

All things in moderation - including moderation.

Andy_JS

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

dixiedean

TimS said:

HYUFD said:

Neither Tiverton and Honiton nor Wakefield have a particularly high number of graduates and Wakefield was 66% Leave and Mid Devon was 53% Leave.

So if Starmer gains Wakefield he can finally say Labour is regaining some of the redwall, while if the LDs win Tiverton and Honiton it will show, like North Shropshire, it can win by elections in Leave as well as Remain areas

53% leave isn’t very leave though, really. Only 1% ahead of the national vote and slightly more remain than the English average. Given polling and demographic shifts since then it’s probably marginally pro-remain now.

I think a Lib Dem victory would show the Tories losing the farming vote though. As did NS. If you’re working in agriculture right now the government doesn’t offer you much to vote for. Reduced and more complex subsidies, shortages of migrant labour, massive inflation in fuel and fertilisers, the threat of undercutting imports.

Being rural doesn't mean all farming though.
Though it is how they identify.

Leon

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

All things in moderation - including moderation.

Well said, sir

The ancient Greeks got it right. Debate, society, happiness and friendship are all enabled and ennobled by good wine. But put a bit of water in it

dixiedean

MoonRabbit said:

GaryL said:

always remember though people vote their interests...as high inflation takes hold and reduces their standard of living i think even the OAPS will start to find Boris a little less loveable

If you are living rurally using oil wondering why it’s not covered by the energy price cap. The Tories can do this tomorrow. They should have done it by now! But it they announce that in this by election campaign it will help their vote I’m sure.

I wondered on the last thread, no one took it up, if the Tories hold Tivi because many feeling previous MP was unfairly hounded out?

Who on Earth would think that?
In what other job is watching porn in view of colleagues acceptable?
BBFC excepted.

EPG

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Clearly because the Lib Dems are winning here.

bigjohnowls

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

dixiedean

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

Yep. The Middle Way.
Awareness and acceptance of your frailties is vital though.
I gave up drugs relatively easily. That was cos I did them to be social. I enjoyed them all and had some excellent times. But it wasn't me. So when I had kids it was a bit of a relief to have an excuse not to tbh.
But. I love booze. I can't stop when I've started. So I don't start till nine. It can be hard sometimes. But I make it a rule. I tell people I'll fall asleep and that would be rude.
If I let myself have a half at lunchtime, I wake up in a hedge. Probably bleeding profusely. And covered in vomit.

Leon

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

SandyRentool

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

Wrong turn off the M25 and end up in Brighton?

SeaShantyIrish2

MaxPB said:

Lots of chatter coming from the US that they're about to tell the EU to make the "deal that's available" on NI and stop bitching about it because they don't see the UK position moving at all and now there's a potential threat to western unity and violence breaking out in NI.

I get the feeling that within a few weeks we'll get a lot of behind the scenes movement and around September a new agreement will be revealed that the DUP still aren't on board with but will satisfy most concerns and take the heat out of it all.

My guess is that the agreement will be something like 70-80% of what the UK wants but fall down on key areas like ECJ jurisdiction because NI companies will need the ECJ as a final court of arbitration participate in the single market.

Sounds like could be subtantially correct.

Which is NOT same as giving Boris a total "Get-Out-of-Your-Own-Paddy-Wagon" card.

Just that quite a few in US government, including Biden, Pelosi, Schumer AND McConnell - heck, even McCarthy for what it's worth- are way morethan ready. to bang EU as well as UK heads together on Northern Ireland, for reasons you say.

Heck, they don't even have to worry overmuch about IRISH headbangers, in that most will be on-board with a US-brokered solution, either publically or covetly, again as you suggest.

Don't know about %s but of course will take a while for numbers shake out.

Leon

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

Yep. The Middle Way.
Awareness and acceptance of your frailties is vital though.
I gave up drugs relatively easily. That was cos I did them to be social. I enjoyed them all and had some excellent times. But it wasn't me. So when I had kids it was a bit of a relief to have an excuse not to tbh.
But. I love booze. I can't stop when I've started. So I don't start till nine. It can be hard sometimes. But I make it a rule. I tell people I'll fall asleep and that would be rude.
If I let myself have a half at lunchtime, I wake up in a hedge. Probably bleeding profusely. And covered in vomit.

We have evolved to process booze. We are MEANT to drink it. In that recent Spectator article about the “hidden civilisation” of Gobekli Tepe it says they had mighty ritual feasts. With booze. In 10,000 BC

Mankind cannot bear too much reality. The skill is in knowing quite how much reality to blot out

HYUFD

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Immigration, cultural wokeism, economically Labour has moved right since the Labour Party was founded under Keir Hardie to represent the working class but socially it has moved to the liberal left.

Working class voters tend to be economically centrist, centre left but socially and culturally conservative. Hence Boris has moved towards working class voters to fill in the gap left by Labour.

However Brexit has turned graduates away from the Conservatives under Boris and towards Labour and the LDs in turn

MoonRabbit

dixiedean said:

MoonRabbit said:

GaryL said:

always remember though people vote their interests...as high inflation takes hold and reduces their standard of living i think even the OAPS will start to find Boris a little less loveable

If you are living rurally using oil wondering why it’s not covered by the energy price cap. The Tories can do this tomorrow. They should have done it by now! But it they announce that in this by election campaign it will help their vote I’m sure.

I wondered on the last thread, no one took it up, if the Tories hold Tivi because many feeling previous MP was unfairly hounded out?

Who on Earth would think that?
In what other job is watching porn in view of colleagues acceptable?
BBFC excepted.

You and I may agree it’s a fitting punishment here not to take sorry won’t happen again and hound someone out a career, but we have to think like all voters not just ourselves, if you are anti woke you might think a more conciliatory punishment may have been fairer in this instance?

MoonRabbit

What look is Truss aiming for today then? 1 part Domestic Godess to 2 parts newsreader?

Perhaps she is looking so tired this week because she is carrying the ring of power around her neck? Workloads been pretty mordor of late - you could almost suspect her boss is trying to Minas Tariff her?

dixiedean

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

But. As has been extensively discussed. It isn't the white working class who have no qualifications.
Virtually.no-one under 50 doesn't have a single GCSE or CSE.
It's the old.

Andy_JS

I'm surprised the LDs are doing best with the no qualifications group. Seems a bit counterintuitve.

MrEd

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

Indeed,

Leon said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

All things in moderation - including moderation.

Well said, sir

The ancient Greeks got it right. Debate, society, happiness and friendship are all enabled and ennobled by good wine. But put a bit of water in it

Today’s alcohol is substantially stronger than even 50 / 60 years ago. Blame the Aussies 😀

HYUFD

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

But. As has been extensively discussed. It isn't the white working class who have no qualifications.
Virtually.no-one under 50 doesn't have a single GCSE or CSE.
It's the old.

Even the young working class in areas like the Midlands are less keen on Labour than young graduates in London, even if they have a few GCSEs

dixiedean

Leon said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

Yep. The Middle Way.
Awareness and acceptance of your frailties is vital though.
I gave up drugs relatively easily. That was cos I did them to be social. I enjoyed them all and had some excellent times. But it wasn't me. So when I had kids it was a bit of a relief to have an excuse not to tbh.
But. I love booze. I can't stop when I've started. So I don't start till nine. It can be hard sometimes. But I make it a rule. I tell people I'll fall asleep and that would be rude.
If I let myself have a half at lunchtime, I wake up in a hedge. Probably bleeding profusely. And covered in vomit.

We have evolved to process booze. We are MEANT to drink it. In that recent Spectator article about the “hidden civilisation” of Gobekli Tepe it says they had mighty ritual feasts. With booze. In 10,000 BC

Mankind cannot bear too much reality. The skill is in knowing quite how much reality to blot out

Agreed 100%. I've got a handle on it now I think.
I pray every day I continue too. Tightrope.

FrankBooth

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

MrEd

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

Must be a few of them round your neck of the woods @Leon.

Sunil_Prasannan

OGH said "Graduates, graduates, graduates"

"Mr. Smithson, you're trying to seduce me. Aren't you?"

SandyRentool

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Was that before or after they abandoned them to bang on about Israel-Palestine all the time?

MoonRabbit

SandyRentool said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

Wrong turn off the M25 and end up in Brighton?

No - I’ll miss TSE exciting new thread headers. I only came up North for one weekend intentionally I ran out of clean knickers days ago and have been going without.

I won’t have time for detours just wanting to hug my partner again!

HYUFD

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

As already posted in 2019 the Conservatives won 49% of over 55 graduates but only 21% of 18 to 34 graduates


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

Sunil_Prasannan

MoonRabbit said:

What look is Truss aiming for today then? 1 part Domestic Godess to 2 parts newsreader?

Perhaps she is looking so tired this week because she is carrying the ring of power around her neck? Workloads been pretty mordor of late - you could almost suspect her boss is trying to Minas Tariff her?

I'm not THAT desperate, @MoonRabbit!

MrEd

HYUFD said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Immigration, cultural wokeism, economically Labour has moved right since the Labour Party was founded under Keir Hardie to represent the working class but socially it has moved to the liberal left.

Working class voters tend to be economically centrist, centre left but socially and culturally conservative. Hence Boris has moved towards working class voters to fill in the gap left by Labour.

However Brexit has turned graduates away from the Conservatives under Boris and towards Labour and the LDs in turn

Never mind the politics of it, having so many students doing useless courses where their wage income is no better than if they had left school at 18 is a significant drag on the economy. If a political party came out and said we are going to significantly reduce the size of the Higher Ed space whilst also aggressively encouraging employers to take 18 year olds than graduates, they would have my vote.

El_Capitano

I see Hacker News - the forum of startup entrepreneurs and Google engineers - has noticed @Leon ’s (very good) Spectator article…

Sunil_Prasannan

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone

'Course we are, Leon! 'Course we are!

HYUFD

Andy_JS said:

I'm surprised the LDs are doing best with the no qualifications group. Seems a bit counterintuitve.

Indeed, in 2019 the LDs won 17% of graduates but only 7% of those without qualifications

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

dixiedean

HYUFD said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

But. As has been extensively discussed. It isn't the white working class who have no qualifications.
Virtually.no-one under 50 doesn't have a single GCSE or CSE.
It's the old.

Even the young working class in areas like the Midlands are less keen on Labour than young graduates in London, even if they have a few GCSEs

But the young working class in Liverpool.aren't.
It's almost as if it isn't about class at all.

Edit. I see above that you are quoting figures back at @FrankBooth that it actually is about age.

HYUFD

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

But. As has been extensively discussed. It isn't the white working class who have no qualifications.
Virtually.no-one under 50 doesn't have a single GCSE or CSE.
It's the old.

Even the young working class in areas like the Midlands are less keen on Labour than young graduates in London, even if they have a few GCSEs

But the young working class in Liverpool.aren't.
It's almost as if it isn't about class at all.

Even in Liverpool I expect the young working class are less keen on Labour than young Liverpool graduates

Foxy

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

For the second time on this thread...

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

HYUFD

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Immigration, cultural wokeism, economically Labour has moved right since the Labour Party was founded under Keir Hardie to represent the working class but socially it has moved to the liberal left.

Working class voters tend to be economically centrist, centre left but socially and culturally conservative. Hence Boris has moved towards working class voters to fill in the gap left by Labour.

However Brexit has turned graduates away from the Conservatives under Boris and towards Labour and the LDs in turn

Never mind the politics of it, having so many students doing useless courses where their wage income is no better than if they had left school at 18 is a significant drag on the economy. If a political party came out and said we are going to significantly reduce the size of the Higher Ed space whilst also aggressively encouraging employers to take 18 year olds than graduates, they would have my vote.

Yes more apprenticeships on offer for the top 20 to 40%, not just solely focusing on university which is best suited to the top 10%

IshmaelZ

Leon said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

Yep. The Middle Way.
Awareness and acceptance of your frailties is vital though.
I gave up drugs relatively easily. That was cos I did them to be social. I enjoyed them all and had some excellent times. But it wasn't me. So when I had kids it was a bit of a relief to have an excuse not to tbh.
But. I love booze. I can't stop when I've started. So I don't start till nine. It can be hard sometimes. But I make it a rule. I tell people I'll fall asleep and that would be rude.
If I let myself have a half at lunchtime, I wake up in a hedge. Probably bleeding profusely. And covered in vomit.

We have evolved to process booze. We are MEANT to drink it. In that recent Spectator article about the “hidden civilisation” of Gobekli Tepe it says they had mighty ritual feasts. With booze. In 10,000 BC

Mankind cannot bear too much reality. The skill is in knowing quite how much reality to blot out

The evidence being calcium oxalate which is a by product of brewing.

Google Göbekli Tepe and the first auto suggest is Göbekli Tepe hoax which leads to a Scientific American article which purports to debunk the theory that the place is of any significance because "Göbekli Tepe was a ceremonial religious site, not a city—there is no evidence that anyone lived there." As if that made it more explicable, not less.

HYUFD

Foxy said:

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

For the second time on this thread...

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

So even 18 to 34s with only GCSEs voted Leave and even over 55s with degrees voted Remain

carnforth

El_Capitano said:

I see Hacker News - the forum of startup entrepreneurs and Google engineers - has noticed @Leon ’s (very good) Spectator article…

It was on Marginal Revolution yesterday. Suspect that’s where it was picked up — seems their sort of place.

dixiedean

MoonRabbit said:

SandyRentool said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

Wrong turn off the M25 and end up in Brighton?

No - I’ll miss TSE exciting new thread headers. I only came up North for one weekend intentionally I ran out of clean knickers days ago and have been going without.

I won’t have time for detours just wanting to hug my partner again!

No knickers saves time. You couldn't advise on public sector efficiency while you're at it?

Ratters

Reflecting on the economy, I think the Tories are screwed at the next election.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that we are heading for an inflation-induced recession. Inflation will remain very high this year and BoE rates are expected to more than double to over 2% by year-end. Central banks will have no choice
but to keep hiking rates as inflation feeds into pay negotiations given we have full employment.

That leaves us in recession later this year or 2023. With Boris no longer popular, I struggle to see how the Tories recover from this before May 2024.

williamglenn

Elon Musk seems to be very serious about disrupting US politics. He's now going after members of the Clinton campaign team which includes the current head of the SEC.

@elonmusk
Sussmann himself admitted billing Clinton Campaign to pay for him to present Russia hoax to FBI! This is not even questioned by the defense.

Btw, I donated to & voted for Hillary, so am doubly pissed off about those funds being used for lying.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1527720691264520192

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1527742530925764608

HYUFD

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

Andy_JS said:

The Labour Party was set up in the first place to predominantly be a party for people with few or no qualifications. Why are they so unpopular with this group today?

Because they have abandoned them for middle class types with their Liberal Elite Agendas

Indeed. NO ONE looks down on the British white working classes with such outright, undisguised contempt as an upper middle class lefty Woke Remainer. Like Thornberry. Or like Starmer (hence his desperation to appear “patriotic”)

Tory snobbery, in comparison, appears trivial, dated and quaintly irrelevant

But. As has been extensively discussed. It isn't the white working class who have no qualifications.
Virtually.no-one under 50 doesn't have a single GCSE or CSE.
It's the old.

Even the young working class in areas like the Midlands are less keen on Labour than young graduates in London, even if they have a few GCSEs

But the young working class in Liverpool.aren't.
It's almost as if it isn't about class at all.

Edit. I see above that you are quoting figures back at @FrankBooth that it actually is about age.

It was about education in the EU referendum yes but in terms of voting intention it is still about age

IshmaelZ

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone

'Course we are, Leon! 'Course we are!

Whistling in the dark...

Foxy

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

For the second time on this thread...

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

So even 18 to 34s with only GCSEs voted Leave and even over 55s with degrees voted Remain

Yes. Though obviously the proportions in each age group with degrees vary.

Degree educated people voted Remain, even corrected for age.

IshmaelZ

MoonRabbit said:

What look is Truss aiming for today then? 1 part Domestic Godess to 2 parts newsreader?

Perhaps she is looking so tired this week because she is carrying the ring of power around her neck? Workloads been pretty mordor of late - you could almost suspect her boss is trying to Minas Tariff her?

I'm getting a kinda Anne of Cleves vibe from that, or do I mean Ann Boleyn?

NickPalmer

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

For the second time on this thread...

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

So even 18 to 34s with only GCSEs voted Leave and even over 55s with degrees voted Remain

Yes...but the age impact does seem rather limited in this table, suggesting that educational level was relevant for Brexit choice. In terms of personal prospects it perhaps makes sense, too - if you have a degree then access to an international space is very attractive; if you don't have many qualifications, you might hope for restricted immigration to reduce competition.

Foxy

Ratters said:

Reflecting on the economy, I think the Tories are screwed at the next election.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that we are heading for an inflation-induced recession. Inflation will remain very high this year and BoE rates are expected to more than double to over 2% by year-end. Central banks will have no choice
but to keep hiking rates as inflation feeds into pay negotiations given we have full employment.

That leaves us in recession later this year or 2023. With Boris no longer popular, I struggle to see how the Tories recover from this before May 2024.

Yes, it looks like a world of economic hurt for the next two years or so.

MoonRabbit

dixiedean said:

MoonRabbit said:

SandyRentool said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

Wrong turn off the M25 and end up in Brighton?

No - I’ll miss TSE exciting new thread headers. I only came up North for one weekend intentionally I ran out of clean knickers days ago and have been going without.

I won’t have time for detours just wanting to hug my partner again!

No knickers saves time. You couldn't advise on public sector efficiency while you're at it?

Well I did on the last thread. As Farooq said, I’m as shameless as Boris.

Where is Farooq? I haven’t bullied him off PB 😕

Leon

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Hey @RochdalePioneers sorry to hear of your Deep Moody Blues

As I’ve said before, I’ve been there, as - it seems - have many PB-ers. It’s great that we can talk about it on here without shame or embarrassment. Sharing is part of curing. And the other parts of curing are the usual: exercise, good healthy food, fresh air, try and socialise if you can, but don’t curse yourself if you can’t, don’t refuse the happy pills if it gets that bad

Alcohol is a puzzler. All the medical advice says Don’t do it, booze makes it worse, it’s a depressant. And yet it numbs the pain, doesn’t it? And that is really quite helpful, at times. Each to their own

Most of all remember that depression is like bad weather. There isn’t THAT much you can do, but shelter and endure, but bad weather ALWAYS passes. Hunker down and sit it out

"It's a depressant" is just wrong, though. It's technically true, but it's physiological rather than psychological processes it depresses. I have been very seriously depressive all my life; I was entirely teetotal 45 - 60 in the hope that would improve things. I had my worst ever episode of depression in early 2021 and thought Fuck it, let's drink. I now find that about a bottle of wine a night is an invaluable weapon in the War On Depression. Not recommending it to anyone else but it works for me.

My understanding. And IANAE, but was told by one who is, is that it causes anxiety spikes. Which can, but doesn't always, lead to depression. As such, it is indirect.
But. As I say I can't say that for sure.

Was also told coffee is the same. I cut down to four a day. My anxiety tumbled.

Yes, that sounds right to me, and it is how alcoholics get into a downward spiral. Anxiety leads to drinking, leads to more drinking etc.

Cutting out caffiene helps too, and so does shutting down electronics.

And yet teetotallers are more miserable than anyone, and the intake of coffee apparently prolongs life - and much else

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you

This physical, social and emotional benefits of “a few glasses with friends” are almost immeasurable. You relax, you laugh, you bond

The ideal is a moderate amount of alcohol taken with friends or over a pleasant meal, the two extremes - neat vodka on your own at 7am or No Booze At All - are probably equally bad

Yep. The Middle Way.
Awareness and acceptance of your frailties is vital though.
I gave up drugs relatively easily. That was cos I did them to be social. I enjoyed them all and had some excellent times. But it wasn't me. So when I had kids it was a bit of a relief to have an excuse not to tbh.
But. I love booze. I can't stop when I've started. So I don't start till nine. It can be hard sometimes. But I make it a rule. I tell people I'll fall asleep and that would be rude.
If I let myself have a half at lunchtime, I wake up in a hedge. Probably bleeding profusely. And covered in vomit.

We have evolved to process booze. We are MEANT to drink it. In that recent Spectator article about the “hidden civilisation” of Gobekli Tepe it says they had mighty ritual feasts. With booze. In 10,000 BC

Mankind cannot bear too much reality. The skill is in knowing quite how much reality to blot out

The evidence being calcium oxalate which is a by product of brewing.

Google Göbekli Tepe and the first auto suggest is Göbekli Tepe hoax which leads to a Scientific American article which purports to debunk the theory that the place is of any significance because "Göbekli Tepe was a ceremonial religious site, not a city—there is no evidence that anyone lived there." As if that made it more explicable, not less.

Also very probably wrong. There is now plentiful evidence of homes. At least seasonal, possibly permanent

And that’s before you come to the evidence of multiple Gobekli Tepes spread out over thousands of square kilometres… all showing the same aesthetics and obsessions. Skulls. Leopards. Penises. Groin protection. Weird chevron collars. More penises. Manhood rituals. Vultures. Penises

I like them

Cyclefree

Well, politics is a bit rubbish these days, isn't it.

I will leave you with this quote from one of the greatest English novels ever published - and as appropriate now as when it was first written -

"Whenever Osborne meets a Lord he grovels before him as only a freeborn Englishman can."

Delicious!

dixiedean

Ratters said:

Reflecting on the economy, I think the Tories are screwed at the next election.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that we are heading for an inflation-induced recession. Inflation will remain very high this year and BoE rates are expected to more than double to over 2% by year-end. Central banks will have no choice
but to keep hiking rates as inflation feeds into pay negotiations given we have full employment.

That leaves us in recession later this year or 2023. With Boris no longer popular, I struggle to see how the Tories recover from this before May 2024.

Au contraire. We'll be in a recession. Sure. But this is great news for the Tories. "Britain is Tanking. Don't Let Labour Ruin It!" Or some such.
Election win nailed on.
The danger is that we pull out of it in reasonable time. And folk reflect that "Things can only get Better."
It is only optimism that produces Labour governments.

MoonRabbit

IshmaelZ said:

MoonRabbit said:

What look is Truss aiming for today then? 1 part Domestic Godess to 2 parts newsreader?

Perhaps she is looking so tired this week because she is carrying the ring of power around her neck? Workloads been pretty mordor of late - you could almost suspect her boss is trying to Minas Tariff her?

I'm getting a kinda Anne of Cleves vibe from that, or do I mean Ann Boleyn?

You mean Julia Child meets Martine Croxall

GaryL

dixiedean said:

Ratters said:

Reflecting on the economy, I think the Tories are screwed at the next election.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that we are heading for an inflation-induced recession. Inflation will remain very high this year and BoE rates are expected to more than double to over 2% by year-end. Central banks will have no choice
but to keep hiking rates as inflation feeds into pay negotiations given we have full employment.

That leaves us in recession later this year or 2023. With Boris no longer popular, I struggle to see how the Tories recover from this before May 2024.

Au contraire. We'll be in a recession. Sure. But this is great news for the Tories. "Britain is Tanking. Don't Let Labour Ruin It!" Or some such.
Election win nailed on.
The danger is that we pull out of it in reasonable time. And folk reflect that "Things can only get Better."
It is only optimism that produces Labour governments.

Not with high inflation its not and old people taking serious hits to their living standards for the first time in decades

HYUFD

dixiedean said:

Ratters said:

Reflecting on the economy, I think the Tories are screwed at the next election.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that we are heading for an inflation-induced recession. Inflation will remain very high this year and BoE rates are expected to more than double to over 2% by year-end. Central banks will have no choice
but to keep hiking rates as inflation feeds into pay negotiations given we have full employment.

That leaves us in recession later this year or 2023. With Boris no longer popular, I struggle to see how the Tories recover from this before May 2024.

Au contraire. We'll be in a recession. Sure. But this is great news for the Tories. "Britain is Tanking. Don't Let Labour Ruin It!" Or some such.
Election win nailed on.
The danger is that we pull out of it in reasonable time. And folk reflect that "Things can only get Better."
It is only optimism that produces Labour governments.

Wasn't optimism that won it for Wilson in February 1974, it was high inflation, power shortages and strikes under Heath.

GaryL

An inflationary recession will be completely different to 2008,, the pain will be widely shared

GarethoftheVale2

All been kicking off in Hyndburn:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/20153823.hyndburn-boss-called-racist-independent-tories-take/

MoonRabbit

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

dixiedean said:

MoonRabbit said:

SandyRentool said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I don't wish to cause an excitement overload but on Sunday I shall be doing the morning thread on electoral reform and the afternoon thread on Scottish independence.

I’ll be driving back to London on Sunday, I’ll miss it! 😭

Wrong turn off the M25 and end up in Brighton?

No - I’ll miss TSE exciting new thread headers. I only came up North for one weekend intentionally I ran out of clean knickers days ago and have been going without.

I won’t have time for detours just wanting to hug my partner again!

No knickers saves time. You couldn't advise on public sector efficiency while you're at it?

Well I did on the last thread. As Farooq said, I’m as shameless as Boris.

Where is Farooq? I haven’t bullied him off PB 😕

I suppose it's possible I could get bullied off here, but it would need to be someone whose opinion I actually respected.

Well I respect you as being the sites most consistent poster, Farooq.

Consistently angry at something 🧌 GRRR! GRRR! 🤭

IshmaelZ

GaryL said:

An inflationary recession will be completely different to 2008,, the pain will be widely shared

No it won't. The asset rich gonna make out like banditz.

HYUFD

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

FrankBooth said:

As has been said repeatedly younger people are much more likely to have a degree than older people are. We know that older people are much more likely to be conservative. It would be nice to see some polling on education that accounted for age.

For the second time on this thread...

https://anthonybmasters.medium.com/age-education-and-the-eu-referendum-ca7525be173d

So even 18 to 34s with only GCSEs voted Leave and even over 55s with degrees voted Remain

Yes...but the age impact does seem rather limited in this table, suggesting that educational level was relevant for Brexit choice. In terms of personal prospects it perhaps makes sense, too - if you have a degree then access to an international space is very attractive; if you don't have many qualifications, you might hope for restricted immigration to reduce competition.

Hence too Le Pen did best with the low skilled while Macron won pensioners

El_Capitano

GarethoftheVale2 said:

All been kicking off in Hyndburn:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/20153823.hyndburn-boss-called-racist-independent-tories-take/

“Cllr Parkinson had proposed an all party Cabinet with himself as leader, Tory group boss Cllr Marlene Haworth as his deputy alongside fellow Conservatives Cllr Peter Britcliffe, Cllr Stephen Smithson and Cllr Kath Pratt with Cllr Dad and Labour's Cllr Joyce Plummer.”

I do hope Cllr Dad’s first name is “Centrist”.