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Potty punters continue to make Burnham favourite to succeed Starmer – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 15 in General
imagePotty punters continue to make Burnham favourite to succeed Starmer – politicalbetting.com

I have made this point repeatedly before but nothing drives me mad more at the moment than those who are betting on Andy Burnham as the successor to Keir Starmer.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 40,636
    First
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,658
    edited May 10
    First like Tom Brady.

    EDIT: Second like everyone else.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    edited May 10
    No Nick Toaster Slimline or Goody Dodds? 2021s shadow cabinet is so 2021
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917
    edited May 10
    Punters continue to back Burnham because he is a really good candidate for Labour on so many levels if Starmer goes.

    Punters look at the alternatives - and despair.

    Unfortunately, it needs many things to change. Including the sex that Burnham self-identifies as....

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    He'd have to resign as mayor to be nominated anyway, wouldn't he?

    I'm not sure I see him returning to national politics, to be honest. He seems to be doing far better as Mayor than he ever did as a minister.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917
    FPT:

    It was in a bit of trouble when Cameron's "renegotiation" - the central basis for going to the voters with our new, shiny, improved deal with the EU - was put on the verboten list.

    By the Remain campaign.

    Thereby acknowledging the very reason many of those voting Leave "actually have a point". And meaning Cameron had to defend the UK's position in the EU prior to the renegotiation - the shit position that required a renegotiation.

    And then Cameron called us Little Englanders for rubbishing his rubbish deal. Way to go, Dave. Add anger, indignation and determination to vote against him to the list.

    Thick Of It, meet Mr Kafka....
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,263
    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,579

    Punters continue to back Burnham because he is a really good candidate for Labour on so many levels if Starmer goes.

    Punters look at the alternatives - and despair.

    The fact that you would have put your three quid on the Mayor of Dudsbury inclines me to someone else, anyone else. A surefire sign the King of the North would get spanked by BigDog.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,999
    As a non-Brit the biggest explainer of the political skew on PB seems to be the high proportion of alumni of two particular universities (though maybe I'm under-estimating how many people go to those universities). If hypothetically Labour ranks are filled by mid-skill union reps and lower-grade professionals, no wonder there are fewer of them on PB. Also the apparent high share of Cameroon but antiBoris Remainers (and Leavers).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,443

    The strangest thing about Rod Crosby was he had little time for subjective guessing about elections based on feeling or intuition. His predictions on elections were based on careful research of academic literature to build models which took data from polling and elections.

    His views on the Holocaust shall we say were not based in the facts and evidence.

    Is it true that he's no longer with us?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955

    Punters continue to back Burnham because he is a really good candidate for Labour on so many levels if Starmer goes.

    Punters look at the alternatives - and despair.

    I mean he was fourth to Ed Stone and runner up to mad grandpa, booed at Anfield and refused an inquiry into Staffs trust.
    And he's the current king over water
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,053
    Don't get mad, get laying.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Punters continue to back Burnham because he is a really good candidate for Labour on so many levels if Starmer goes.

    Punters look at the alternatives - and despair.

    Unfortunately, it needs many things to change. Including the sex that Burnham self-identifies as....

    Not necessarily. Depends on how many other leaders Labour get through by the time Mr Burnham has become a MP, or (strictly speaking) a peer.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,136
    Boris Johnson is travelling to Sweden on Wednesday to sign a deal on strengthening defence cooperation

    https://www.thelocal.se/20220510/boris-johnson-to-sign-defence-deal-in-sweden-on-wednesday/
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,120

    Punters continue to back Burnham because he is a really good candidate for Labour on so many levels if Starmer goes.

    Punters look at the alternatives - and despair.

    Unfortunately, it needs many things to change. Including the sex that Burnham self-identifies as....

    I believe the Conservative post-Johnson field is similarly wide open and full of non-entities.

    7/1 the field I think...
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 496
    FPT .. Alastair Matlock is also missed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    edited May 10

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    FPT

    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander* at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster voting systems, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.

    Do we need referenda whenever we have a revision og boundaries? When the Tories gerrymander by insisting on photo ID rather than making elections truly secure?

    TBF I'm not sure - but it's not been regarded as too much of an issue in the past.

    *Edit: albeit one that has had unintended consequences for its SLD/Slab makers.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 984

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,282
    Re Starmer not resigning if he broke the rules but doesn’t get a fine .

    I thought he would get a FPN if he broke the rules as the situation is different from Cummings. I can’t see Durham police going to all this effort to then say he broke the rules but we don’t do retrospective fines .

  • LDLFLDLF Posts: 43
    edited May 10
    To be charitable, the assumption punters may be making is that Starmer will not be charged and thus will not resign.
    They may be making the prediction that even this site has made - that Starmer will be Prime Minister after the next election, and therefore in post as Labour leader for a few years to come.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 5,661
    ydoethur said:

    He'd have to resign as mayor to be nominated anyway, wouldn't he?

    I'm not sure I see him returning to national politics, to be honest. He seems to be doing far better as Mayor than he ever did as a minister.

    Yes. Also, the world has moved on. One of the advantages of Streeting, Reeves et al is that they weren't in the public mind at the start of this ongoing binfire, so they have got a chance of leading the country out of it.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,263
    edited May 10
    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 10
    nico679 said:

    Re Starmer not resigning if he broke the rules but doesn’t get a fine .

    I thought he would get a FPN if he broke the rules as the situation is different from Cummings. I can’t see Durham police going to all this effort to then say he broke the rules but we don’t do retrospective fines .

    Politically for the police it is an ideal fudge to say it looks like it was probably a minor breach, but have decided not to take any further action, as at the time we would have just warned them to alter behaviour. Then they don't look like they have been pressured either way nor have any of it tested in court.
  • vinovino Posts: 82
    JACK_W said:

    FPT .. Alastair Matlock is also missed.

    Seconded - He was a great poster
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    edited May 10
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,282

    nico679 said:

    Re Starmer not resigning if he broke the rules but doesn’t get a fine .

    I thought he would get a FPN if he broke the rules as the situation is different from Cummings. I can’t see Durham police going to all this effort to then say he broke the rules but we don’t do retrospective fines .

    Politically for the police it is an ideal fudge to say it looks like it was a minor breach, but have decided not to take any further action. Then they don't look like they have been pressured either way nor have any of it tested in court.
    Good point . They can then avoid being responsible for Starmer resigning. I’m thinking let’s say Johnson had said he would resign if given a penalty what would the Met Police have done .

    Personally I think they should never have been involved , this goes the same for Durham. This should have been dealt with by parliament .
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    I’m reliably informed that when one visits a central London hotel these days the staff are mostly English. My informant tells me that they hadn’t seen an English member of staff in such hotels the previous two decades. Is that an improvement to your life?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
    Yet it's none of your business, or mine. The WG was entirely empowered to propose it and the Welsh voted for it and they'll get it, it seems.

    And "players all know the drill" is an astonishingly positive take on FPTP.

    But the list only element is not good.

    At leastd in the local government election we hadin Scotland we voted for specific persons.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    edited May 10
    Brexiters who believe the market will deliver success need to explain why market sentiment toward Brexit is so poor.

    Foreign investment is down. Export performance has declined. The pound has lost value. The stock exchange has underperformed.

    Capitalism views Brexit as a impairment to the country’s prospects. If you accept that, fine.
    But many don’t and it’s not what was promised.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,464
    Rayner would have to resign if Starmer does surely
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 10
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Re Starmer not resigning if he broke the rules but doesn’t get a fine .

    I thought he would get a FPN if he broke the rules as the situation is different from Cummings. I can’t see Durham police going to all this effort to then say he broke the rules but we don’t do retrospective fines .

    Politically for the police it is an ideal fudge to say it looks like it was a minor breach, but have decided not to take any further action. Then they don't look like they have been pressured either way nor have any of it tested in court.
    Good point . They can then avoid being responsible for Starmer resigning. I’m thinking let’s say Johnson had said he would resign if given a penalty what would the Met Police have done .

    Personally I think they should never have been involved , this goes the same for Durham. This should have been dealt with by parliament .
    Boris would still have been in huge trouble as numerous potential offences and he was the boss responsible for a culture of widespread defiance and organised events which were against the rules.

    I know we got some stupid fines during covid, but mostly the plod seeing somebody bend the rules just told them so, it was when things were clearly organised events to break them e.g. pre-arrranged house parties or somebody opening their gym, etc that got the fines.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
    Yet it's none of your business, or mine. The WG was entirely empowered to propose it and the Welsh voted for it and they'll get it, it seems.

    And "players all know the drill" is an astonishingly positive take on FPTP.

    But the list only element is not good.

    At leastd in the local government election we hadin Scotland we voted for specific persons.

    No.

    Let’s take your argument to its absurd form: Labour and PC have decided to abolish elections, having promised it in their manifestos.

    Would that be “none of my business”?

    Anyway, if I understand correctly, the manifestos promised a reform of the electoral system, not *this* reform.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    nico679 said:

    Re Starmer not resigning if he broke the rules but doesn’t get a fine .

    I thought he would get a FPN if he broke the rules as the situation is different from Cummings. I can’t see Durham police going to all this effort to then say he broke the rules but we don’t do retrospective fines .

    Stupid to be briefing this to the telegraph, already being reported as planning to get off on a technicality.
    He knows he's boxed himself in.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 5,661
    edited May 10

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917

    Rayner would have to resign if Starmer does surely

    Her ego would try ever so ever so hard not to.....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,053
    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    edited May 10

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.
    Not just a gnu.

    A racist gnu, who shits on the carpet and tries to blame it on the Romanian housekeeper.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 49,748
    Glad I am not the only one who thinks Burnham's ratings are bonkers.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
    Yet it's none of your business, or mine. The WG was entirely empowered to propose it and the Welsh voted for it and they'll get it, it seems.

    And "players all know the drill" is an astonishingly positive take on FPTP.

    But the list only element is not good.

    At leastd in the local government election we hadin Scotland we voted for specific persons.

    No.

    Let’s take your argument to its absurd form: Labour and PC have decided to abolish elections, having promised it in their manifestos.

    Would that be “none of my business”?

    Anyway, if I understand correctly, the manifestos promised a reform of the electoral system, not *this* reform.
    Equally, your logic is that the Senedd could never, ever, exert its powers to decide anything differently from what Westminster does.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ooh, we are being Sargon-istic tonight.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    edited May 10
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
    Yet it's none of your business, or mine. The WG was entirely empowered to propose it and the Welsh voted for it and they'll get it, it seems.

    And "players all know the drill" is an astonishingly positive take on FPTP.

    But the list only element is not good.

    At leastd in the local government election we hadin Scotland we voted for specific persons.

    No.

    Let’s take your argument to its absurd form: Labour and PC have decided to abolish elections, having promised it in their manifestos.

    Would that be “none of my business”?

    Anyway, if I understand correctly, the manifestos promised a reform of the electoral system, not *this* reform.
    Equally, your logic is that the Senedd could never, ever, exert its powers to decide anything differently from what Westminster does.
    Not at all.

    I’m about the most pro-devolution person on here.

    But I don’t believe the Senedd should, for example, be able to re-impose capital punishment.

    And I don’t believe it should be able to impose an anti-democratic system that is guaranteed to deliver corruption.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 5,661

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.
    Not just a gnu.

    A racist gnu, who shits on the carpet and tries to blame it on the Romanian housekeeper.
    Stop complaining.

    That gnu dung will be valuable and affordable fuel to keep our homes warm this winter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    edited May 10

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Penddu2 said:

    The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.

    It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.

    Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.

    Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.

    Central government should step in.

    “Central government” chortle.

    Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
    It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.

    There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.

    I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
    Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
    Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.

    I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
    Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though.
    This is a gerrymander.

    At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
    It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
    At least.

    Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.

    Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity in the UK.

    I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
    I'm very familiar with the notion. We've got a gerrymander at Holyrood and we've got one at Westminster, by any sane standard.

    I don't recall we had a referendum on Westminster, and the 1997 referendum only asked if we wanted a Scottish Parliament, and a supplementary about its tax-modifying powers.
    I don’t think Westminster is a gerrymander.
    It’s FPTP, it’s been around for ever, we know how it works, and as far as I can tell it’s fair.

    Does it discriminate against small parties? Yes, such is FPTP, but players all know the drill and elections are competitive. It’s perfectly viable to flick between Tory led and Labour led governments.

    Holyrood is a stitch-up, but as we see it’s backfired. It now acts to perpetuate SNP rule, and I’d like to see it reformed, but even so it allows for some movement, ie we see the Greens in government there now.

    The Welsh proposal is a stitch-up on steroids.
    99% of the time it is going to deliver a Lab/PC government, and all SDs will be determined by party bosses behind closed doors.

    I can’t think of a system better designed to deliver stagnation and corruption. It’s like something the Chinese would dream up for Hong Kong.

    But because people see “PR” and perhaps the male/female proposal they think “progressive”.
    Yet it's none of your business, or mine. The WG was entirely empowered to propose it and the Welsh voted for it and they'll get it, it seems.

    And "players all know the drill" is an astonishingly positive take on FPTP.

    But the list only element is not good.

    At leastd in the local government election we hadin Scotland we voted for specific persons.

    No.

    Let’s take your argument to its absurd form: Labour and PC have decided to abolish elections, having promised it in their manifestos.

    Would that be “none of my business”?

    Anyway, if I understand correctly, the manifestos promised a reform of the electoral system, not *this* reform.
    Equally, your logic is that the Senedd could never, ever, exert its powers to decide anything differently from what Westminster does.
    Not at all.

    I’m about the most pro-devolution person on here.

    But I don’t believe the Senedd should, for example, be able to re-impose capital punishment.
    Point taken. Yet that is assuming the Tories have pulled completely out of the relevant internatoonal legislation eg HRA. In which case, why not? If it's good enough for them to make the possibility open, then why not>

    Edit; of course there are plenty of reasons not to go for capital punishment. But at some point lower in the scale you would be interfering unduly.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.
    Not just a gnu.

    A racist gnu, who shits on the carpet and tries to blame it on the Romanian housekeeper.
    So, more a Brexit Baboon.

    Never look a gift baboon in the mouth. It’ll bite your face off.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,187

    Rayner would have to resign if Starmer does surely

    No. Rayner does not have to quit if SKS goes
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,147
    edited May 10

    Rayner would have to resign if Starmer does surely

    No. Rayner does not have to quit if SKS goes
    She's said she will if she gets a FPN.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917
    edited May 10

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Did you get your vaccine? Brexit benefitted you from not being locked into some half-arsed Euro arrangement. It quite possibly saved the life of a friend or family member.

    Our being outside was also a spur to the EU to get their shit together. Having Brexit Britain jabbed up whilst the EU's citizens died created a political imperative to shift their arses.

    If the Referendum had locked us into ever closer union, I strongly suspect the UK would have been closed down from helping Ukraine to the level we have. We would have been trapped into some EU-wide foot-dragging whilst Kyiv fell.

    Plus - Nigel Farage is out of a job. His soap box taken away. Surely that counts for something?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    But fucking up interrnational cooperation and student flow in science and academia.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,147
    On topic, people who are backing Burnham to succeed Starmer have terrible judgment, they also backed David Miliband to succeed Corbyn, despite not being an MP, they also put pineapple on pizza.

    There's also the problem of the law which stops Burnham from double jobbing whilst Mayor of Greater Manchester.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Did you get your vaccine? Brexit benefitted you from not being locked into some half-arsed Euro arrangement. It quite possibly saved the life of a friend or family member.

    Our being outside was also a spur to the EU to get their shit together. Having Brexit Britain jabbed up whilst the EU's citizens died created a political imperative to shift their arses.

    If the Referendum had locked us into ever closer union, I strongly suspect the UK would have been closed down from helping Ukraine to the level we have. We would have been trapped into some EU-wide foot-dragging whilst Kyiv fell.

    Plus - Nigel Farage is out of a job. His soap box taken away. Surely that counts for something?
    That last point is like saying it's great that buffalo are extinct because it means Buffalo Bill is out of a job.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 984
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ur, what?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ur….
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,830
    edited May 10
    Starmer and Rayner aren't going anywhere, at worst the plod will say potential minor technical breach of clause 28, subclause 59, just a warning, case closed, everybody move on.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.
    Not just a gnu.

    A racist gnu, who shits on the carpet and tries to blame it on the Romanian housekeeper.
    I thought Amber shat on the bed not the carpet?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ur, what?
    What are you Babylon on about now?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
    No, he’ll be dead by then.
    Everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited May 10


    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    The Leave/Remain demographics really don't help us here.

    The people who voted for Brexit most enthusiastically are those most separated from the working world, because they're retired.

    The people least keen on Brexit are those who have to make it work and young people who are a bit idealistic and probably most footloose. And they've now been handed this brilliant gift that, in many cases, they don't particularly want and is going to be hard work to look after. It's as if your maiden aunt has given you a pet gnu and expected you to be grateful. And there's not much possibility of returning it to the gnu shop.

    I'm not going to predict how this ends, or when. But if the plan is that things will be rubbish for a bit but my children might see the benefit shortly before they retire... that's going to be a drag on British politics for decades.

    There may be something in this. The two most enthusiastic Brexiters I know are far from the younger urbanites of part of my family - a retired rural couple essentially from the rural squirearchy on my mother's side - Barbours and a now extremely old Range Rover captures part of the general idea.

    To say that their enthusiasm for Brexit is undimmed would be an understatement. They almost seem more fanatical about it than ever before.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917
    Anyway, if Starmer does fall under the curry bus, the clamour will not be for Burnham.

    It will be for Balls.

    "Come back. To Wakefield. Your Party NEEDs you..."
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582
    Carnyx said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    But fucking up interrnational cooperation and student flow in science and academia.
    Only with Europe and only because the EU cut off everyone’s nose to spite their face
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,700
    What specifically are these benefits that will belatedly appear to the delight of my grandchildren?
    While you're at it future scanning you can give me some betting tips too.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
    Cheaper food and more income for the UK.

    But that was in the newspaper I read on Saturday as I had to go and see some people about some stuff
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,263

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Did you get your vaccine? Brexit benefitted you from not being locked into some half-arsed Euro arrangement. It quite possibly saved the life of a friend or family member.

    Our being outside was also a spur to the EU to get their shit together. Having Brexit Britain jabbed up whilst the EU's citizens died created a political imperative to shift their arses.

    If the Referendum had locked us into ever closer union, I strongly suspect the UK would have been closed down from helping Ukraine to the level we have. We would have been trapped into some EU-wide foot-dragging whilst Kyiv fell.

    Plus - Nigel Farage is out of a job. His soap box taken away. Surely that counts for something?
    1. I'd have got my vaccine if we'd still been in the EU.

    2. Well done! Getting rid of Nigel Farage is a definite plus plus plus. Whether Brexit is worth it...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Carnyx said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    But fucking up interrnational cooperation and student flow in science and academia.
    Only with Europe and only because the EU cut off everyone’s nose to spite their face
    If you cancel a club sub the clud does tend to shut off the benefits of membership.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
    No. I’m willing to stand by the argument that a global pandemic is atypical.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    There are view few (or no) benefits from Brexit which is why a succession of Ministers are in charge of finding said benefits (IDS, Frost, Rees-Mogg), nothing substantial is ever produced.

    It’s been five years; pretty much nada.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ur, what?
    What are you Babylon on about now?
    He’s in deNile
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    dixiedean said:

    What specifically are these benefits that will belatedly appear to the delight of my grandchildren?
    While you're at it future scanning you can give me some betting tips too.

    Not to mention where Tesla shares will be in 2042, whether Mr Johnson is still PM, and who won Wagatha.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    Nothing needs to be added to Mike's thread. It is SPOT ON.

    Sometimes the betting markets are bonkers.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 984

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Ur, what?
    What are you Babylon on about now?
    You might not like my pun but Amorite with it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    But fucking up interrnational cooperation and student flow in science and academia.
    Only with Europe and only because the EU cut off everyone’s nose to spite their face
    If you cancel a club sub the clud does tend to shut off the benefits of membership.
    But not to other non members
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
    Cheaper food and more income for the UK.

    But that was in the newspaper I read on Saturday as I had to go and see some people about some stuff
    Food is more expensive and we’re earning less (relative to our peers).

    Is it too late to get your money back for this “newspaper”?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
    No, he’ll be dead by then.
    Everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces.
    The youngsters are sick to the back teeth of it already.

    - “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net badly)

    18-24 -62
    25-49 -36
    50-64 -23
    65+ -2

    Scotland -63
    London -38
    North -26
    Midlands & Wales -20
    Rest of South -18

    GB -26

    (YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 13,533
    @Turbotubbs FPT

    Do vax actually reduce the chances of contracting it much (even asymptomatically)? Of course, there's a nontrivial amount of people who have it but without any symptoms. Mrs Anab had barely a sniffle – she would have been none the wiser were it not for her doing a test when I had Man-Covid.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
    Cheaper food and more income for the UK.

    But that was in the newspaper I read on Saturday as I had to go and see some people about some stuff
    Food is more expensive and we’re earning less (relative to our peers).

    Is it too late to get your money back for this “newspaper”?
    Scientific research takes longer than 3 days. Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
    No, he’ll be dead by then.
    Everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces.
    The youngsters are sick to the back teeth of it already.

    - “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net badly)

    18-24 -62
    25-49 -36
    50-64 -23
    65+ -2

    Scotland -63
    London -38
    North -26
    Midlands & Wales -20
    Rest of South -18

    GB -26

    (YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
    TBF that question is about the execution of Brexit rather than the principle. But if a Cabinet full of the bluest Brexiters can't make it work ...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 984
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Is that Nippur or “little ‘un”?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574
    Let’s try to be fair to Brexiters.

    The gamble is that there are potential benefits to flexibility that will come to outweigh the existing benefits of collaboration.

    Said benefits - when and if they kick in - need to compensate for the near-term deadweight of Brexit on the economy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,136
    edited May 10

    There are view few (or no) benefits from Brexit which is why a succession of Ministers are in charge of finding said benefits (IDS, Frost, Rees-Mogg), nothing substantial is ever produced.

    You're looking at it through the wrong lens. Brexit is one answer to the EU malaise identified by Bruno Macaes in this piece. Some believe that the answer is further centralisation to reduce the role of national states, but an equally valid option, especially for a large and mostly geographically separate state like the UK, is to withdraw completely and bet on political renewal as a sovereign entity in its own right.

    @MacaesBruno
    If there were any doubts left, the war in Ukraine proved yet again that the European Union is today the only source of political progress and change in Europe. The national states have become an obstacle to progress and perhaps even a maladaptation


    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1521827543149654017
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Did you get your vaccine? Brexit benefitted you from not being locked into some half-arsed Euro arrangement. It quite possibly saved the life of a friend or family member.

    Our being outside was also a spur to the EU to get their shit together. Having Brexit Britain jabbed up whilst the EU's citizens died created a political imperative to shift their arses.

    If the Referendum had locked us into ever closer union, I strongly suspect the UK would have been closed down from helping Ukraine to the level we have. We would have been trapped into some EU-wide foot-dragging whilst Kyiv fell.

    Plus - Nigel Farage is out of a job. His soap box taken away. Surely that counts for something?
    1. I'd have got my vaccine if we'd still been in the EU.

    2. Well done! Getting rid of Nigel Farage is a definite plus plus plus. Whether Brexit is worth it...
    I think you need to go back and re-remember how the EU tried to fuck us over on vaccines.... Because we were making them look bad.

    Macron commenting on the quality of our vaccine ring any bells?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,282
    edited May 10

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    But fucking up interrnational cooperation and student flow in science and academia.
    Only with Europe and only because the EU cut off everyone’s nose to spite their face
    If you cancel a club sub the clud does tend to shut off the benefits of membership.
    But not to other non members
    The UK is now a third country . Thats the result of the vote , not sure what people expected to happen. The rules for third countries are the same .
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,053
    Heathener said:

    Nothing needs to be added to Mike's thread. It is SPOT ON.

    Sometimes the betting markets are bonkers.

    So: lay, lady, lay

    SKS pm 24-28 then Burnham takes over after returning in a by election in 26 seems not worth betting on or against to me.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 12,574

    There are view few (or no) benefits from Brexit which is why a succession of Ministers are in charge of finding said benefits (IDS, Frost, Rees-Mogg), nothing substantial is ever produced.

    You're looking at it through the wrong lens. Brexit is one answer to the EU malaise identified by Bruno Macaes in this piece. Some believe that the answer is further centralisation to reduce the role of national states, but an equally valid option, especially for a large and mostly geographically separate state like the UK, is to withdraw completely and bet on political renewal as a sovereign entity in its own right.

    @MacaesBruno
    If there were any doubts left, the war in Ukraine proved yet again that the European Union is today the only source of political progress and change in Europe. The national states have become an obstacle to progress and perhaps even a maladaptation


    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1521827543149654017
    You’re posting a piece by Bruno Macaes in favour of more Europe to argue for less Europe?

    You need to be sent back to the shop for a re-boot.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
    Cheaper food and more income for the UK.

    But that was in the newspaper I read on Saturday as I had to go and see some people about some stuff
    Cheaper food? More income? A newspaper you read?

    Please don’t tell that to the Clapham omnibus blokes in person. A punch in the mouth often offends.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 1,955
    Of the non Burnham faces above, Cooper and Phillipson could easily lose their seats next time out, thus would spend most of a campaign on their own seat. Rayner or Reeves are the safest seats, Reeves especially. Nandy and Streeting have about 10% to play with. Phillipson is 8% ahead but there is 15% BXP to target and Sunderland is heading Torywards imo. Cooper is now a hyper marginal.
    Safety first, Streeting, Nandy, the Ginger Menace or boring old Reeves for the win in any vacancy
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Maybe the man on the Clapham Omnibus is not part of the political/media bubble and realises that change takes time to derive benefits.

    He might have changed career or moved jobs and realised that you don’t suddenly start shooting through the company immediately.

    He might have worked for a company who got bought out and it took a few years for the changes and benefits to be clear.

    The problem is that everyone on both sides of the Brexit debate seems to think that any benefits etc would or should be immediately apparent.

    The bad side will inevitably hit first - Brexit is a long project and to think it would all be unicorns from day one is dumb.

    If Brexit was good it won’t really be evident for maybe a generation - especially as the EU evolves and many who might have been anti-Brexit might find themselves thinking they are glad we de-coupled. It could of course be a shitshow and we end up as a failed state…..
    Well, I voted for Brexit six years ago and fuck all has improved for me since then. Quite the opposite. And now you're telling me to be patient. Stuff that.
    It didn’t happen until 2020.

    And the last 2 years have been atypical
    Come 2042, you lot will be claiming that the last 2 decades have been atypical. So predictable.
    No, he’ll be dead by then.
    Everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces.
    The youngsters are sick to the back teeth of it already.

    - “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net badly)

    18-24 -62
    25-49 -36
    50-64 -23
    65+ -2

    Scotland -63
    London -38
    North -26
    Midlands & Wales -20
    Rest of South -18

    GB -26

    (YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
    TBF that question is about the execution of Brexit rather than the principle. But if a Cabinet full of the bluest Brexiters can't make it work ...
    There is plenty of Brexit polling too. Same pattern.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,466

    @Turbotubbs FPT

    Do vax actually reduce the chances of contracting it much (even asymptomatically)? Of course, there's a nontrivial amount of people who have it but without any symptoms. Mrs Anab had barely a sniffle – she would have been none the wiser were it not for her doing a test when I had Man-Covid.

    Yes.
    It’s been masked by the sheer infectious nature of omicron, but yes vaccines do stop infection, not just serious disease. What has been significant is that this protection wanes faster than the serious disease/death protection. Long Covid aside, that doesn’t matter much.
    But yes, being vaccinated does confer some level of protection against infection. And increases the chance of being asymptomatic to boot.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,466
    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Been busy - can anyone Sumerian the following?

    - Has Putin got an FPN yet?
    - Has Starmer withdrawn from Karkiv?
    - Is Boris Johnson still stuck in the toaster?

    Do you have time for me to do a cuneiform tablet and dry it off in the sun?
    Only Akkad would mock another poster for an innocent auto correct like that.

    My dad taught me not to make fun of other peoples' mistakes when I was just a Nippur.
    Is that Nippur or “little ‘un”?
    Surely Lidl hun, in the style of pb this good evening.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,263

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Did you get your vaccine? Brexit benefitted you from not being locked into some half-arsed Euro arrangement. It quite possibly saved the life of a friend or family member.

    Our being outside was also a spur to the EU to get their shit together. Having Brexit Britain jabbed up whilst the EU's citizens died created a political imperative to shift their arses.

    If the Referendum had locked us into ever closer union, I strongly suspect the UK would have been closed down from helping Ukraine to the level we have. We would have been trapped into some EU-wide foot-dragging whilst Kyiv fell.

    Plus - Nigel Farage is out of a job. His soap box taken away. Surely that counts for something?
    1. I'd have got my vaccine if we'd still been in the EU.

    2. Well done! Getting rid of Nigel Farage is a definite plus plus plus. Whether Brexit is worth it...
    I think you need to go back and re-remember how the EU tried to fuck us over on vaccines.... Because we were making them look bad.

    Macron commenting on the quality of our vaccine ring any bells?
    Yes, I know all that. But folk in the EU got vaccinated, albeit a bit later, and the Covid death rate in W. Europe is pretty much on a par with ours.

    It's telling that you and other Brexit supporters are struggling to find something about Brexit that has improved the day-to-day life of the average UK citizen. I'm not talking about Ukraine, gene editing or any of that stuff - just my everyday life, which I feel has got worse since 2016, not better. I was promised cheaper food, fewer immigrants etc. etc. But food is much more expensive and there's millions of "illegals crossing the Channel" (TM Mail, Farage). So I ask again - am I any better off? (And I'm not really willing to wait JRM's 50 years to find out).
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,466

    I posted this near the end of the last thread; since I got no response, I thought I'd try again:

    Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.

    So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.

    Changing rules on gene editing to allow for regulation based on science rather than bullshit
    Yeah, the Clapham omnibus blokes are huge aficionados of gene editing. Lord almighty, was that really the best you could manage? Really?
    Cheaper food and more income for the UK.

    But that was in the newspaper I read on Saturday as I had to go and see some people about some stuff
    Food is more expensive and we’re earning less (relative to our peers).

    Is it too late to get your money back for this “newspaper”?
    Scientific research takes longer than 3 days. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Usually true, although I have one paper where the three compounds were synthesised, crystallised within an hour or two, followed by about 6 hours of x-ray to get the 3D structures. All told no more than 24 h actual science. Writing the paper took far longer.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917

    Of the non Burnham faces above, Cooper and Phillipson could easily lose their seats next time out, thus would spend most of a campaign on their own seat. Rayner or Reeves are the safest seats, Reeves especially. Nandy and Streeting have about 10% to play with. Phillipson is 8% ahead but there is 15% BXP to target and Sunderland is heading Torywards imo. Cooper is now a hyper marginal.
    Safety first, Streeting, Nandy, the Ginger Menace or boring old Reeves for the win in any vacancy

    Cooper is in a hyper-marginal because a lot her constituents really don't like her.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,136

    There are view few (or no) benefits from Brexit which is why a succession of Ministers are in charge of finding said benefits (IDS, Frost, Rees-Mogg), nothing substantial is ever produced.

    You're looking at it through the wrong lens. Brexit is one answer to the EU malaise identified by Bruno Macaes in this piece. Some believe that the answer is further centralisation to reduce the role of national states, but an equally valid option, especially for a large and mostly geographically separate state like the UK, is to withdraw completely and bet on political renewal as a sovereign entity in its own right.

    @MacaesBruno
    If there were any doubts left, the war in Ukraine proved yet again that the European Union is today the only source of political progress and change in Europe. The national states have become an obstacle to progress and perhaps even a maladaptation


    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1521827543149654017
    You’re posting a piece by Bruno Macaes in favour of more Europe to argue for less Europe?

    You need to be sent back to the shop for a re-boot.
    The UK has been more effective on Ukraine than the traditional EU core member states, and more effective than it was in 2014 as an EU member.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,282
    The problem with Brexit in its current state is this government has made a conscious decision to not even give a few scraps to the 48%.

    Had Remain won I wouldn’t have supported an absolutist approach which ignored concerns of Leavers .

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