1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
I'm intrigued by this Martin/banned word business. What's all that about?
PB Republicans need to imagine what a UK (except it would then be something else - the UR?) would look like
The crown is woven into every corner of our national life, from the law to parliament to the army and navy to our stamps and money and shared and collective memory
It would be an act of near-impossible vandalism to get rid of all that. A huge emotional and constitutional wrench. And for what? To what end? How would we be better? We’d need some elected figurehead so it would be president fuck knows. Ed sheeran? President Mister Tumble off of CBBC?
It’s just never going to happen. Even if republican sentiment went over 50% people would look at the pointless chaos and say Nah
I would agree, but then I look at the Brexit vote. You can argue about whether being in or out was better and whether having monarchy or republic is better, but either way there's a fair bit of pain changing it. So you'd better be sure that the alternative is better. That was a chunk of my remain vote and would make me hesitant if there was a vote to rejoin in the near future. Yet it happened.
Destroying the monarchy would be an emotional convulsion that would make Brexit look like the great Hertfordshire earthquake of 2013
I can only see it happening if we were horribly conquered in a war or some such utter catastrophe
Hardly.
Brexit fucked the British economy, wrecked travel and stoked culture wars.
Abolishing the monarchy would be a total 'meh' for most people. It would make zero difference to our lives, except lighten the mood.
“Wrecked travel”
Er, OK. I’ve just come directly from the USA to Turkey (with a stopover in Munich). I am now staring at my raki wondering whether to eat more pistachios. I’m sailing to Greece in a day or two. And In about ten days I will smoothly go on from there
For someone who is big on world travel you don’t know much about travel
Brexit made it slightly harder to get into Schengen but that's about it really.
No, it took away the legal right to live, work, study and travel freely at will in around 30 European countries. But, to be fair, most people will just notice the extra queues in airports and seaports.
Strange. I still manage to live, work and travel around the EU quite nicely thankyou. I am too busy for the study bit at the moment. Apart from a couple of extra bits of paper, working inside the EEA is no harder now than it was 5 years ago.
If you are a UK citizen, you cannot now just move from, say, Norway to Sweden to live and work. You now need the permission of the Swedish government and must fulfil the criteria they set for non-EU/EEA citizens to stay in their country. That never used to be the case. But, as I say, this will not have an impact on most people. They'll just spend longer in queues.
Personally I am all in favour of complete freedom of movement for everyone from anywhere - something even the most ardent of Europhiles seem to be strangely averse to. But on a practical level, the actual work involved in going to live or work in Norway, France, Italy, Spain or anywhere else in the EU is no worse than it was before. It is a bit more paperwork. Hardly the end of the world.
That depends on the country and what you want to do. You can't just hop on an Easyjet and go get a bar job for the summer in Spain anymore, for example. Like the UK, many EU countries will have salary bands for non-EU/EEA workers and income requirements for those who want to settle. Again, Spain does. For example, if you want to retire there now you need to prove an income of around €2150 per month for the first individual, plus another €500 or so for a partner and any dependents. On top of that you have to pay health insurance.
Indeed correct. Meaning it is much harder to settle in an EU country armed with just a UK passport. Before, it was a right. Now you need to apply for it.
And yet more British Nationals are managing to get residency in EU countries than ever before. In 2021 Portugal had its highest ever increase in British Nationals taking up residency - up 8% on the previous year and the 6th year in a row it had increased. Now one might reasonably ask why all these people want to leave the UK and settle elsewhere but that is not the argument. It puts a lie to the idea it is now significantly harder than it was previously.
Sadly, at least some of that is because British firms are moving development centres to Lisbon.
“Now released from @PanebaseMD poll of 26-29.4 (ch since 9-12.11)
Holyrood constituency vote Con 19 (-1) Lab 24 (+5) LD 7 (-1) SNP 42 (-5) Oth 8 (+2)
Regional Con 20 (-1) Lab 22 (+4) LD 7 (n/c) SNP 36 (-5) Green 10 (n/c) Oth 5 (+2)”
Interesting
Is Kir Royale winning over the Nats?
Sturgeon sickening them and nowhere else to go but Labour @Leon
Indie ref try her last throw of the dice? I'm guessing Angus is next in line or does the lovely Kate fancy it?
She will not do it , will be Macbeth next I reckon unless the skeletons come out of the cupboards.
Which one is macbeth? Next GE certainly more 2017 than 2019 results wise, nat turnout will be the big issue I think More Lab gaining of course than Con but some interesting 3 ways I suspect
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Musk says he would reverse Trumps twitter ban. Trump says he wont go back but I bet he'd post something to explode liberals heads, he wont be able to help himself
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are morons. That hasn’t changed since 2016.
What the fuck was Cameron thinking in yielding to a referendum? Really? For that alone, he goes down as the worst PM this country has ever has beating the disingenuous fat fornicator who currently resides in Number 10.
Leave played it perfectly pandering to the worst in people with their dog whistle campaign. It will finally dawn on the xenophobic thickos that voted leave that foreigners and darkies are still coming into this country.
Post of the week.
"Tell people you despise them, and then wonder why they are a bit wary of you."
This is of course the sentiment behind these people and why they dislike self-rule in the first place. They despise the British electorate and therefore want the country to be governed by a bureaucratic elite. Preferably a foreign bureaucratic elite to ensure there isn't some lingering affiliation with British culture.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Don’t pass over poor Nick Clegg.
I think I’m the only PBer to hold the opinion that a referendum on Europe was right and overdue - but that the manner of the referendum was a constitutional abortion.
The opposite of an abortion. A summer frolic that gave us stretchmarks and sleepless nights. And at some point we let Semen Santa move in and he changes the wallpaper and farts on the couch and all our friends are asking us why we stay with him.
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
The EU will not likely enter extensive negotiation unless acceptance is guaranteed given that we have already voted to leave once.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
I'm afraid I consider Rejoining to be very unlikely now. Impossible on the favourable terms we had when we were members as well. I will never forgive the bast***d politicians and right wing press who poisoned the body politic and the Great British people with their lies. That is why I will never make my peace with them.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
I'm afraid I consider Rejoining to be very unlikely now. Impossible on the favourable terms we had when we were members as well. I will never forgive the bast***d politicians and right wing press who poisoned the body politic and the Great British people with their lies. That is why I will never make my peace with them.
Blame everyone else but your poor campaign with a hand that should have walked it
There is no going back now but blaming others may be a consolation but the blame is nearer to home
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
I was thinking about attitudes to Continental Europe earlier on.
Not that early on on life, I discovered that a particular grandparent that I had thought was from a particular part of England, like my grandmother, was in fact from a particular country in Continental Europe. This helped me develop an interest in the place, although I'd already been a few times and liked it, and even develop a certain amount more of a partial identification with it ; even to the extent of using his original name on one of my alternate emails, for instance.
When I see that particular hostility and innate suspicion of Continental Europe which doesn't feel natural or familiar to me at all, I occasionally ask myself if that discovery of that corner of our family is what makes it so unrecognisable for my own particular point of view.
But every time, I come to the same conclusion ; I only discovered that about halfway through life, and had much the same view before. A large part of my family were generations of Liberals, and before that religious Nonconformists who I even found out had enthusiastic ties to a particular Continental protestant community hundreds of years ago.
I think suspicion of Europe is baked into Toryism a very long way back too.
The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.
It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.
Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.
Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.
Central government should step in.
“Central government” chortle.
Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.
There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.
I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
The EU will not likely enter extensive negotiation unless acceptance is guaranteed given that we have already voted to leave once.
The Party putting this forward will have won a General Election so they will have a mandate to begin the negotiating process. As to what its and the EU's "red lines" would be I don't know. After all, it took Britain the thick end of 15 years to get into the EEC (thanks mainly to De Gaulle).
The truth is negotiating our entry into the EU wouldn't be a five-minute job and I suspect would require a Government with at least two full terms.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
Perhaps you think that because it was "the right answer" for you. No doubt if it had been the "wrong answer" you might have been clamouring for another vote like the SNP. Democracy is a fickle and complex thing. People tend to claim the primacy of the democratic vote rather like those who claim God is on their side in time of war. My own view is that the 2016 vote had to be enacted. Was it "democratic"? Almost certainly very flakey. "The people" did not get to vote on anything real, only blandishments and guesses. Cameron et al should have had a two phase vote that enabled people to endorse the final deal. That would have been genuinely democratic, but of course Brexiteers didn't want that, they wanted the hardest Brexit possible. No-one, including people on this site knew what the final deal would look like. Most would have probably settled for an EEA type compromise. It was never on offer. Not very democratic.
Subtler than that, I reckon.
Every leaver wanted a decisive break with the EU in some way or other (freedom of movement, control of fish, no foreign judges, stepping off ever closer union, strengthening UK-NI links by weakening NI-Eire links et cetera). My hunch is that a lot of people assumed that, apart from their personal bonnet bee, things would bumble along much as before.
What everyone missed was that the only way to fulfil all the spoken wishes of everyone was an adamantine hard Brexit (the alternative being that the rest of the continent would wake themselves from their reverie, facepalm themselves and say "Of course, all this careful work on the single market was unnecessary! What chumps we all were"). And in doing that, what was sacrificed was the mostly unspoken bumbling along bit. Which is what EEA Brexit would be, relatively harmless, not much point and not Taking Back Control.
This choice has the consequences we continue to see around us.
That’s fair
I benignly assumed Brexit would end up as 10 years in EFTA then a rethink. And if Remainers had accepted that, that’s where we’d be now
The attempt to overthrow the primal vote (peoples referendum!) was a Trumpite outrage and that polarised everyone and that has led us to this ultimate Brexit. Perhaps that was inevitable, who can say
In the end I still believe we are happier governing ourselves and we will prosper eventually thereby. But I totally understand Remainers who point and say Look it’s a shit-show
If only they hadn’t tried to subvert the democratic process before, they’d get more of a hearing
🤷♂️
It was Theresa May who first excluded EFTA, which was also the beginning of making a mockery of a democratic choice, and the jam-for-all prospectus offered by Vote Leave at the referendum.
Agreed. Entirely. Her stupid “red-lines” were a disaster. Just for that she has some claim to being the worst prime minister of the last 100 years
I know people on here don’t like others using the A-word. But what the hell. I thing TMay is autistically insensitive and unable to read a room and in this case not reading the room was catastrophic
Indeed. Although we musn't forget that for herself, she was simply saving her skin. Cave in to the ERG = staying in power.
Yes, it wasn’t her autism. It was her cowardice.
One of the alternate histories that needs to be written at some point-
What if Boris had become Conservative leader in 2016?
Because to get from the Vote Leave prospectus to EEA would have been a helluva swerve (and would have left a lot of Vote Leave and Leave.EU fuming), and he's the only politician in the UK with the nerve to pull it off. Had he wanted to. Would he have wanted to?
I am not sure it would have been such a swerve. For a few months or so, there was a kind of general confusion over Brexit and it was left to May to define the possibilities.
This she failed to do, and so hardliners began to define the terrain for her.
I would add that the electoral maths suggested that any reasonable Brexit could only be passed with cross-party support.
Theresa was not willing to reach out beyond her own party, and did not have the confidence to believe that such a solution might be in turn be rewarded electorally.
I'm afraid that's bullshit.
The LibDems were never going to sign up to any kind of Brexit, while the Labour Party under Corbyn (who was ironically quite pro-Brexit) was never going to be seen to support a Conservative government.
There was therefore absolutely no possibility (except with a few notable exceptions such as Stephen Lloyd of the LDs) of getting something through with cross party support.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
I'm afraid I consider Rejoining to be very unlikely now. Impossible on the favourable terms we had when we were members as well. I will never forgive the bast***d politicians and right wing press who poisoned the body politic and the Great British people with their lies. That is why I will never make my peace with them.
Blame everyone else but your poor campaign with a hand that should have walked it
There is no going back now but blaming others may be a consolation but the blame is nearer to home
And I voted remain
The idea that everyone on pb who dislikes the current flavour of Brexit was in charge of the remain campaign is most weird. Yes it was poorly run and thought out, why is that our fault?
Cameron's fault sure. Corbyn's too. But not random unknown poster on pb.com.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
All you ever do here is call people morons, thickos, idiots and fat. You have never constructed an argument about anything - not even a wrong, stupid, dishonest or simplistic argument. Niente.
Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are morons. That hasn’t changed since 2016.
What the fuck was Cameron thinking in yielding to a referendum? Really? For that alone, he goes down as the worst PM this country has ever has beating the disingenuous fat fornicator who currently resides in Number 10.
Leave played it perfectly pandering to the worst in people with their dog whistle campaign. It will finally dawn on the xenophobic thickos that voted leave that foreigners and darkies are still coming into this country.
Thankyou for that erudite and thoughtful contribution.
Ignorant Fuckwit.
I believe your explanation of Brexit is truthful. You explained the future economic pain was worth what you understood to be a return of sovereignty. I might not agree, but I respect that.
The Brexiteers who get my goat are those who sell the bullshit line that Brexit had no downsides and was in our, short, medium and long term economic interests, which is I am afraid an absolute crock. Boris Johnson was the cheerleading salesman for this fiction.
Agreed. But as you probably gathered, I am not hear to defend Johnson in any way.
I also agree with many that we ended up with the wrong Brexit. I argued long and hard both before and after the vote for us to take the EEA route or some equivalent. But I have accepted that I lost that argument and I am still of the opinion that what we have now is better than Remaining.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I would take EEA now, but I can't deny I was a best of three Remainer (1974 being 1).
We are not going back in my lifetime. My biggest personal loss was freedom of movement. I lost and have sucked it up, but Johnson and Co telling me how fantastic Brexit is, and I just can't see it because I am a traitorous Remoaner sticks in the craw.
Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are morons. That hasn’t changed since 2016.
What the fuck was Cameron thinking in yielding to a referendum? Really? For that alone, he goes down as the worst PM this country has ever has beating the disingenuous fat fornicator who cure toy resides in Number 10.
Leave played it perfectly pandering to the worst in people with their dog whistle campaign. It will finally dawn on the xenophobic thickos that voted leave that foreigners and darkies are still coming into this country.
Actually, they are more foreign (geographically speaking) and more darkie than ever!
The level of mental back flipping Remainers do. Reducing unskilled white European immigrants to get more semi-skilled African and Asian immigrants is apparently because the Tories don't like "darkies". There are some reasonable Remainers, but the arch-Remainers really are thick as pig shit.
This is the generous interpretation. The ungenerous one is that, knowingly or unknowingly, they liked freedom of movement exactly because it ensured most immigrants were culturally european.
Having a portuguese nurse treat you? Terribly sophisticated, darling! Tell everyone at the dinner party! A nigerian nurse would go unremarked upon. Not actual racism, but a mental dividing of foreigners into two camps nonetheless.
Yes, there's probably some element of this. Of course the culture they most admire is the central European upper class... those that spend time in Provence and Tuscany. They understand the finer things in life, unlike the plebbier types from Britain and even Eastern Europe. I think that's the reason why a lot of them were ambivalent about Ukrainian resistance for a long time. They were uncomfortable with a patriotic movement focused on military resistance. Far better things to be thrashed out by bureaucratic elites in Brussels and Moscow.
Are you suggesting now that Remainers are “soft” on Ukraine? What drivel you come up with.
I was practically a lone voice on here in saying we should have boots on the ground to deter Russia from crossing over from Belarus, and I'm a remainer. I can remember several people on the Brexit side arguing that Putin's not all that bad or that it's not our problem.
@Aslan spouting bollocks then. Even more bollocks than usual.
He should stick to being a vague metaphor for Jesus in a series of children’s books, and fuck right off from here.
This one was better. Also, my absolute FAVORITE story of CS Lewis was his horror when a woman wrote him about The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe explaining how the "birth channel" of the wardrobe and the "pubic hair" of the fur coats within was so touching and accurate. https://mobile.twitter.com/AnaMardoll/status/1523003621251506178
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
I'd let Brussels sort themselves out a bit, first - so we can see if it will escape from the current pig's breakfast phase.
There are half of the countries opposing the proposed outcome of the latest set of "More EU" proposals, and the integrationist and the Brussels Yellow Press are not happy.
Meanwhile, Brussels are in decently sized dispute with all 5 of their top trading partners (CN, US, RU, CH and UK).
I'm not yet hearing any noises from the Lib Dems re: the Wales proposals - are you?
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
Both, I hope
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
Ok, it’s official, I have Covid. So much for the Superman cape. Complete waste of money.
That said I got a pathetic pale line on my test. My wife’s was solid. But, being a man, mine is obviously worse. 😉
Get well soon, hope it’s not too bad for you.
How many PBers still in the “Not had Covid” club? (Raises hand).
Me.
Not as far as I know, which is a miracle considering how much contact I had with it.
No miracle required. You may be innately immune - there are studies into people who just don’t seem to get it. Yet to be proven. Or you may have just been lucky. I’m in the same boat, as is my wife and most of my family.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
Perhaps you think that because it was "the right answer" for you. No doubt if it had been the "wrong answer" you might have been clamouring for another vote like the SNP. Democracy is a fickle and complex thing. People tend to claim the primacy of the democratic vote rather like those who claim God is on their side in time of war. My own view is that the 2016 vote had to be enacted. Was it "democratic"? Almost certainly very flakey. "The people" did not get to vote on anything real, only blandishments and guesses. Cameron et al should have had a two phase vote that enabled people to endorse the final deal. That would have been genuinely democratic, but of course Brexiteers didn't want that, they wanted the hardest Brexit possible. No-one, including people on this site knew what the final deal would look like. Most would have probably settled for an EEA type compromise. It was never on offer. Not very democratic.
Subtler than that, I reckon.
Every leaver wanted a decisive break with the EU in some way or other (freedom of movement, control of fish, no foreign judges, stepping off ever closer union, strengthening UK-NI links by weakening NI-Eire links et cetera). My hunch is that a lot of people assumed that, apart from their personal bonnet bee, things would bumble along much as before.
What everyone missed was that the only way to fulfil all the spoken wishes of everyone was an adamantine hard Brexit (the alternative being that the rest of the continent would wake themselves from their reverie, facepalm themselves and say "Of course, all this careful work on the single market was unnecessary! What chumps we all were"). And in doing that, what was sacrificed was the mostly unspoken bumbling along bit. Which is what EEA Brexit would be, relatively harmless, not much point and not Taking Back Control.
This choice has the consequences we continue to see around us.
That’s fair
I benignly assumed Brexit would end up as 10 years in EFTA then a rethink. And if Remainers had accepted that, that’s where we’d be now
The attempt to overthrow the primal vote (peoples referendum!) was a Trumpite outrage and that polarised everyone and that has led us to this ultimate Brexit. Perhaps that was inevitable, who can say
In the end I still believe we are happier governing ourselves and we will prosper eventually thereby. But I totally understand Remainers who point and say Look it’s a shit-show
If only they hadn’t tried to subvert the democratic process before, they’d get more of a hearing
🤷♂️
It was Theresa May who first excluded EFTA, which was also the beginning of making a mockery of a democratic choice, and the jam-for-all prospectus offered by Vote Leave at the referendum.
Agreed. Entirely. Her stupid “red-lines” were a disaster. Just for that she has some claim to being the worst prime minister of the last 100 years
I know people on here don’t like others using the A-word. But what the hell. I thing TMay is autistically insensitive and unable to read a room and in this case not reading the room was catastrophic
Indeed. Although we musn't forget that for herself, she was simply saving her skin. Cave in to the ERG = staying in power.
Yes, it wasn’t her autism. It was her cowardice.
One of the alternate histories that needs to be written at some point-
What if Boris had become Conservative leader in 2016?
Because to get from the Vote Leave prospectus to EEA would have been a helluva swerve (and would have left a lot of Vote Leave and Leave.EU fuming), and he's the only politician in the UK with the nerve to pull it off. Had he wanted to. Would he have wanted to?
I am not sure it would have been such a swerve. For a few months or so, there was a kind of general confusion over Brexit and it was left to May to define the possibilities.
This she failed to do, and so hardliners began to define the terrain for her.
I would add that the electoral maths suggested that any reasonable Brexit could only be passed with cross-party support.
Theresa was not willing to reach out beyond her own party, and did not have the confidence to believe that such a solution might be in turn be rewarded electorally.
I'm afraid that's bullshit.
The LibDems were never going to sign up to any kind of Brexit, while the Labour Party under Corbyn (who was ironically quite pro-Brexit) was never going to be seen to support a Conservative government.
There was therefore absolutely no possibility (except with a few notable exceptions such as Stephen Lloyd of the LDs) of getting something through with cross party support.
Indicative votes suggest otherwise. Customs union had 225 Labour votes. Common Market 2.0 had 185 Labour votes. If May had accepted either of those they would have been a done deal.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
The EU will not likely enter extensive negotiation unless acceptance is guaranteed given that we have already voted to leave once.
The Party putting this forward will have won a General Election so they will have a mandate to begin the negotiating process. As to what its and the EU's "red lines" would be I don't know. After all, it took Britain the thick end of 15 years to get into the EEC (thanks mainly to De Gaulle).
The truth is negotiating our entry into the EU wouldn't be a five-minute job and I suspect would require a Government with at least two full terms.
The EU aren't going to waste time and political capital on brexit Britain. Saying the door is open etc is just politeness. We will never rejoin nor be welcomed.
Ok, it’s official, I have Covid. So much for the Superman cape. Complete waste of money.
That said I got a pathetic pale line on my test. My wife’s was solid. But, being a man, mine is obviously worse. 😉
Get well soon, hope it’s not too bad for you.
How many PBers still in the “Not had Covid” club? (Raises hand).
Me.
Not as far as I know, which is a miracle considering how much contact I had with it.
Me. But having had an invitation for my 4th jab, booking, turning up and then being told I was not eligible, I have just had another letter inviting me for my 4th jab.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Don’t pass over poor Nick Clegg.
He was a Tory in all but name. Fortunately his political career evaporated and he has since been forced to leave our shores in ignominy and penury. Ha!
Incidentally I am right now in a steakhouse in Kusadasi, Turkey, and they all seem to be doing perfectly fine, outside the EU, despite 1,90000% inflation
They are themselves. They are Turks. They have problems. But they are good to go
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
I'm intrigued by this Martin/banned word business. What's all that about?
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Unless there has been recent terrible news @Richard_Nabavi should by no means be on the "no longer about" list. You realise antifrank is the more recently departed @AlastairMeeks? And there was an enigmatic figure dressed all in black at the recent pb drinks who said I'm here incognito, I'm going by tim for the evening but I am not that tim. Which left me thinking why would you choose tim as a pseudonym if you knew the name was already taken?
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
Both, I hope
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
In the end, there was 1 million from Poland alone
Liars
Curiously, my own employer is now finding it very difficult to recruit, now that the pool of European labour has shrunk. This is through a mixture of Brexit (a lot were thrown out) and COVID (a lot never returned). Why is that? Shouldn't the emancipated natives be forming queues?
PB Republicans need to imagine what a UK (except it would then be something else - the UR?) would look like
The crown is woven into every corner of our national life, from the law to parliament to the army and navy to our stamps and money and shared and collective memory
It would be an act of near-impossible vandalism to get rid of all that. A huge emotional and constitutional wrench. And for what? To what end? How would we be better? We’d need some elected figurehead so it would be president fuck knows. Ed sheeran? President Mister Tumble off of CBBC?
It’s just never going to happen. Even if republican sentiment went over 50% people would look at the pointless chaos and say Nah
I would agree, but then I look at the Brexit vote. You can argue about whether being in or out was better and whether having monarchy or republic is better, but either way there's a fair bit of pain changing it. So you'd better be sure that the alternative is better. That was a chunk of my remain vote and would make me hesitant if there was a vote to rejoin in the near future. Yet it happened.
Destroying the monarchy would be an emotional convulsion that would make Brexit look like the great Hertfordshire earthquake of 2013
I can only see it happening if we were horribly conquered in a war or some such utter catastrophe
Hardly.
Brexit fucked the British economy, wrecked travel and stoked culture wars.
Abolishing the monarchy would be a total 'meh' for most people. It would make zero difference to our lives, except lighten the mood.
“Wrecked travel”
Er, OK. I’ve just come directly from the USA to Turkey (with a stopover in Munich). I am now staring at my raki wondering whether to eat more pistachios. I’m sailing to Greece in a day or two. And In about ten days I will smoothly go on from there
For someone who is big on world travel you don’t know much about travel
So are you keeping a total of your days in the EU because if you hit the limit you may be fined, deported and banned from traveling to the EU again. You will be treated as an illegal immigrant. For someone who travels a lot and earns his living from doing so have you considered it?
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
All you ever do here is call people morons, thickos, idiots and fat. You have never constructed an argument about anything - not even a wrong, stupid, dishonest or simplistic argument. Niente.
Former Tory-run Perth and Kinross Council to be SNP minority administration
The SNP group has grown from 13 to 16 councillors following last week’s local elections – making it the biggest political group in Perth and Kinross Council. But there will be no coalition arrangement.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
Remain campaign was crap but at least it wasn’t xenophobic. Better to be crap than a xenophobe.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
Perhaps you think that because it was "the right answer" for you. No doubt if it had been the "wrong answer" you might have been clamouring for another vote like the SNP. Democracy is a fickle and complex thing. People tend to claim the primacy of the democratic vote rather like those who claim God is on their side in time of war. My own view is that the 2016 vote had to be enacted. Was it "democratic"? Almost certainly very flakey. "The people" did not get to vote on anything real, only blandishments and guesses. Cameron et al should have had a two phase vote that enabled people to endorse the final deal. That would have been genuinely democratic, but of course Brexiteers didn't want that, they wanted the hardest Brexit possible. No-one, including people on this site knew what the final deal would look like. Most would have probably settled for an EEA type compromise. It was never on offer. Not very democratic.
Subtler than that, I reckon.
Every leaver wanted a decisive break with the EU in some way or other (freedom of movement, control of fish, no foreign judges, stepping off ever closer union, strengthening UK-NI links by weakening NI-Eire links et cetera). My hunch is that a lot of people assumed that, apart from their personal bonnet bee, things would bumble along much as before.
What everyone missed was that the only way to fulfil all the spoken wishes of everyone was an adamantine hard Brexit (the alternative being that the rest of the continent would wake themselves from their reverie, facepalm themselves and say "Of course, all this careful work on the single market was unnecessary! What chumps we all were"). And in doing that, what was sacrificed was the mostly unspoken bumbling along bit. Which is what EEA Brexit would be, relatively harmless, not much point and not Taking Back Control.
This choice has the consequences we continue to see around us.
That’s fair
I benignly assumed Brexit would end up as 10 years in EFTA then a rethink. And if Remainers had accepted that, that’s where we’d be now
The attempt to overthrow the primal vote (peoples referendum!) was a Trumpite outrage and that polarised everyone and that has led us to this ultimate Brexit. Perhaps that was inevitable, who can say
In the end I still believe we are happier governing ourselves and we will prosper eventually thereby. But I totally understand Remainers who point and say Look it’s a shit-show
If only they hadn’t tried to subvert the democratic process before, they’d get more of a hearing
🤷♂️
It was Theresa May who first excluded EFTA, which was also the beginning of making a mockery of a democratic choice, and the jam-for-all prospectus offered by Vote Leave at the referendum.
Agreed. Entirely. Her stupid “red-lines” were a disaster. Just for that she has some claim to being the worst prime minister of the last 100 years
I know people on here don’t like others using the A-word. But what the hell. I thing TMay is autistically insensitive and unable to read a room and in this case not reading the room was catastrophic
Indeed. Although we musn't forget that for herself, she was simply saving her skin. Cave in to the ERG = staying in power.
Yes, it wasn’t her autism. It was her cowardice.
One of the alternate histories that needs to be written at some point-
What if Boris had become Conservative leader in 2016?
Because to get from the Vote Leave prospectus to EEA would have been a helluva swerve (and would have left a lot of Vote Leave and Leave.EU fuming), and he's the only politician in the UK with the nerve to pull it off. Had he wanted to. Would he have wanted to?
I am not sure it would have been such a swerve. For a few months or so, there was a kind of general confusion over Brexit and it was left to May to define the possibilities.
This she failed to do, and so hardliners began to define the terrain for her.
I would add that the electoral maths suggested that any reasonable Brexit could only be passed with cross-party support.
Theresa was not willing to reach out beyond her own party, and did not have the confidence to believe that such a solution might be in turn be rewarded electorally.
I'm afraid that's bullshit.
The LibDems were never going to sign up to any kind of Brexit, while the Labour Party under Corbyn (who was ironically quite pro-Brexit) was never going to be seen to support a Conservative government.
There was therefore absolutely no possibility (except with a few notable exceptions such as Stephen Lloyd of the LDs) of getting something through with cross party support.
Indicative votes suggest otherwise. Customs union had 225 Labour votes. Common Market 2.0 had 185 Labour votes. If May had accepted either of those they would have been a done deal.
I've often wondered what would have happened if post indicative votes May had signed up to Common Market 2.0. Would have been very hard for Labour not to back, and even if Corbyn hadn't there would very possibly have been enough rebels to pass it despite ERG rebellions. One of the great paths not travelled of Brexit imo, along with May deciding on day one to form a Brexit Cabinet with Corbyn in it and make the negotiation a cross-party endeavour (with the idea that both parties would have backed it in the end, probably wouldn't have worked but who knows) and my favourite:
What if Johnson doesn't pull out of the 2016 leadership election? I reckon he still wins it, after stabilising from Gove's betrayal. If so, does he negotiate like May and get criticised by the ERG? Was that inevitable or a product of her/her tactics? Or does he get to the 2019 deal right away? Or do his Leave credentials allow him to pursue a much softer Brexit and still be considered delivering (and would he want that)? I honestly don't know, but my gut is the first one.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
Remain campaign was crap but at least it wasn’t xenophobic. Better to be crap than a xenophobe.
Just a minute ago you were berating Big_G for saying that the Remain campaign should have made a better case, but now you seem to be agreeing with that sentiment.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Unless there has been recent terrible news @Richard_Nabavi should by no means be on the "no longer about" list. You realise antifrank is the more recently departed @AlastairMeeks? And there was an enigmatic figure dressed all in black at the recent pb drinks who said I'm here incognito, I'm going by tim for the evening but I am not that tim. Which left me thinking why would you choose tim as a pseudonym if you knew the name was already taken?
Yes, I know Richard and Andrea are still about, but hardly staples like the old days. Yepp, also aware of the Antifrank, Meeks, unread tumbleweed blog transition. Tim, just come back! We need you. The Labour team around here is hardly sparkling.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
ah yeas Tim and his favourite withering put- down "the Herd"
To be honest, I’m pretty sure “The Herd” terminology long pre-dated tim’s arrival. I may even have coined it myself. I was certainly an early adopter. At one point OGH announced that the next person to type Herd would be immediately banished. He was great at being Mr Angry.
I don't think Tim coined the term 'Herd' for PB Tories but you must remember the Site was much more heavily populated with Conservative supporters back then and he was adept at using the term against them to good effect.
People who complain that the Site is 'too left' or 'too right' don't appreciate how the political composition has fluctuated over the years. I'd say that currently it is as varied as it has ever been.
The only type that has always been conspicuous by its absence is the Scots Lab Supporter. For some reason they just don't show up here. (And of course people who like pineapple on their pizza, but that goes without saying.)
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
Weren’t you banned for life? Why are you even on here?
As far as I can tell you haven’t even changed your name since you denied the H@olcau///st
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
Perhaps you think that because it was "the right answer" for you. No doubt if it had been the "wrong answer" you might have been clamouring for another vote like the SNP. Democracy is a fickle and complex thing. People tend to claim the primacy of the democratic vote rather like those who claim God is on their side in time of war. My own view is that the 2016 vote had to be enacted. Was it "democratic"? Almost certainly very flakey. "The people" did not get to vote on anything real, only blandishments and guesses. Cameron et al should have had a two phase vote that enabled people to endorse the final deal. That would have been genuinely democratic, but of course Brexiteers didn't want that, they wanted the hardest Brexit possible. No-one, including people on this site knew what the final deal would look like. Most would have probably settled for an EEA type compromise. It was never on offer. Not very democratic.
Subtler than that, I reckon.
Every leaver wanted a decisive break with the EU in some way or other (freedom of movement, control of fish, no foreign judges, stepping off ever closer union, strengthening UK-NI links by weakening NI-Eire links et cetera). My hunch is that a lot of people assumed that, apart from their personal bonnet bee, things would bumble along much as before.
What everyone missed was that the only way to fulfil all the spoken wishes of everyone was an adamantine hard Brexit (the alternative being that the rest of the continent would wake themselves from their reverie, facepalm themselves and say "Of course, all this careful work on the single market was unnecessary! What chumps we all were"). And in doing that, what was sacrificed was the mostly unspoken bumbling along bit. Which is what EEA Brexit would be, relatively harmless, not much point and not Taking Back Control.
This choice has the consequences we continue to see around us.
That’s fair
I benignly assumed Brexit would end up as 10 years in EFTA then a rethink. And if Remainers had accepted that, that’s where we’d be now
The attempt to overthrow the primal vote (peoples referendum!) was a Trumpite outrage and that polarised everyone and that has led us to this ultimate Brexit. Perhaps that was inevitable, who can say
In the end I still believe we are happier governing ourselves and we will prosper eventually thereby. But I totally understand Remainers who point and say Look it’s a shit-show
If only they hadn’t tried to subvert the democratic process before, they’d get more of a hearing
🤷♂️
It was Theresa May who first excluded EFTA, which was also the beginning of making a mockery of a democratic choice, and the jam-for-all prospectus offered by Vote Leave at the referendum.
Agreed. Entirely. Her stupid “red-lines” were a disaster. Just for that she has some claim to being the worst prime minister of the last 100 years
I know people on here don’t like others using the A-word. But what the hell. I thing TMay is autistically insensitive and unable to read a room and in this case not reading the room was catastrophic
Indeed. Although we musn't forget that for herself, she was simply saving her skin. Cave in to the ERG = staying in power.
Yes, it wasn’t her autism. It was her cowardice.
One of the alternate histories that needs to be written at some point-
What if Boris had become Conservative leader in 2016?
Because to get from the Vote Leave prospectus to EEA would have been a helluva swerve (and would have left a lot of Vote Leave and Leave.EU fuming), and he's the only politician in the UK with the nerve to pull it off. Had he wanted to. Would he have wanted to?
I am not sure it would have been such a swerve. For a few months or so, there was a kind of general confusion over Brexit and it was left to May to define the possibilities.
This she failed to do, and so hardliners began to define the terrain for her.
I would add that the electoral maths suggested that any reasonable Brexit could only be passed with cross-party support.
Theresa was not willing to reach out beyond her own party, and did not have the confidence to believe that such a solution might be in turn be rewarded electorally.
I'm afraid that's bullshit.
The LibDems were never going to sign up to any kind of Brexit, while the Labour Party under Corbyn (who was ironically quite pro-Brexit) was never going to be seen to support a Conservative government.
There was therefore absolutely no possibility (except with a few notable exceptions such as Stephen Lloyd of the LDs) of getting something through with cross party support.
Indicative votes suggest otherwise. Customs union had 225 Labour votes. Common Market 2.0 had 185 Labour votes. If May had accepted either of those they would have been a done deal.
I've often wondered what would have happened if post indicative votes May had signed up to Common Market 2.0. Would have been very hard for Labour not to back, and even if Corbyn hadn't there would very possibly have been enough rebels to pass it despite ERG rebellions. One of the great paths not travelled of Brexit imo, along with May deciding on day one to form a Brexit Cabinet with Corbyn in it and make the negotiation a cross-party endeavour (with the idea that both parties would have backed it in the end, probably wouldn't have worked but who knows) and my favourite:
What if Johnson doesn't pull out of the 2016 leadership election? I reckon he still wins it, after stabilising from Gove's betrayal. If so, does he negotiate like May and get criticised by the ERG? Was that inevitable or a product of her/her tactics? Or does he get to the 2019 deal right away? Or do his Leave credentials allow him to pursue a much softer Brexit and still be considered delivering (and would he want that)? I honestly don't know, but my gut is the first one.
Given another round (cos the indicative votes process wasn't going to converge in two cycles, that's not how it works), it might well have done. Another alt-history for someone to explore.
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
Both, I hope
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
In the end, there was 1 million from Poland alone
Liars
Curiously, my own employer is now finding it very difficult to recruit, now that the pool of European labour has shrunk. This is through a mixture of Brexit (a lot were thrown out) and COVID (a lot never returned). Why is that? Shouldn't the emancipated natives be forming queues?
No, because they have realised that they are wealthy enough to retire.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
Weren’t you banned for life? Why are you even on here?
As far as I can tell you haven’t even changed your name since you denied the H@olcau///st
WTF. Mods?
I have only ever posted to PB under this name. I have never denied the Holocaust. You’re just sore because I called out your bullshit the other day and/or you’re drunk.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
Both, I hope
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
In the end, there was 1 million from Poland alone
Liars
So we’re getting the abusive Leon this evening ! Have you thought of taking up an anger management course .
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
I've said this before, but our son had covid back in February. A few days after he tested positive, I started feeling poorly. The day after, so did Mrs J. Neither of us ever tested positive, but I'm fairly convinced it was Covid.
Someone on here (Andy Cooke?) says this is not unusual.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
Frank and Antifrank was a great combination too, but unfortunately one day they tried to post simultaneously and dematerialised as a result.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
Socrates (& Tabman) gave me a pounding one night on the causes of the 2nd WW
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
No Aristotle though.
He was a bugger for the bottle
Leon?
Leon tends not to go in for buggery. He prefers to drink the contents.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
ah yeas Tim and his favourite withering put- down "the Herd"
To be honest, I’m pretty sure “The Herd” terminology long pre-dated tim’s arrival. I may even have coined it myself. I was certainly an early adopter. At one point OGH announced that the next person to type Herd would be immediately banished. He was great at being Mr Angry.
It became a portmanteau as I recall: toryherd – which was even more unpopular.
Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are morons. That hasn’t changed since 2016.
What the fuck was Cameron thinking in yielding to a referendum? Really? For that alone, he goes down as the worst PM this country has ever has beating the disingenuous fat fornicator who cure toy resides in Number 10.
Leave played it perfectly pandering to the worst in people with their dog whistle campaign. It will finally dawn on the xenophobic thickos that voted leave that foreigners and darkies are still coming into this country.
Actually, they are more foreign (geographically speaking) and more darkie than ever!
The level of mental back flipping Remainers do. Reducing unskilled white European immigrants to get more semi-skilled African and Asian immigrants is apparently because the Tories don't like "darkies". There are some reasonable Remainers, but the arch-Remainers really are thick as pig shit.
This is the generous interpretation. The ungenerous one is that, knowingly or unknowingly, they liked freedom of movement exactly because it ensured most immigrants were culturally european.
Having a portuguese nurse treat you? Terribly sophisticated, darling! Tell everyone at the dinner party! A nigerian nurse would go unremarked upon. Not actual racism, but a mental dividing of foreigners into two camps nonetheless.
Yes, there's probably some element of this. Of course the culture they most admire is the central European upper class... those that spend time in Provence and Tuscany. They understand the finer things in life, unlike the plebbier types from Britain and even Eastern Europe. I think that's the reason why a lot of them were ambivalent about Ukrainian resistance for a long time. They were uncomfortable with a patriotic movement focused on military resistance. Far better things to be thrashed out by bureaucratic elites in Brussels and Moscow.
Are you suggesting now that Remainers are “soft” on Ukraine? What drivel you come up with.
I was practically a lone voice on here in saying we should have boots on the ground to deter Russia from crossing over from Belarus, and I'm a remainer. I can remember several people on the Brexit side arguing that Putin's not all that bad or that it's not our problem.
There's a common problem that one associates one's tribe with all that is good and moral, while characterising those not from your tribe as being fundamentally immoral.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
ah yeas Tim and his favourite withering put- down "the Herd"
To be honest, I’m pretty sure “The Herd” terminology long pre-dated tim’s arrival. I may even have coined it myself. I was certainly an early adopter. At one point OGH announced that the next person to type Herd would be immediately banished. He was great at being Mr Angry.
i know Tim was banned a number of times but surely not for using the word Herd?
Under current doxxing rules you can be banned for saying Sean, but not Herd.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
I'm intrigued by this Martin/banned word business. What's all that about?
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
I'm intrigued by this Martin/banned word business. What's all that about?
Martin had… issues.
Was good fun in those days, some real ding dongs
Fitaloon and Fitalass were a particularly precious duo as I recall.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
ah yeas Tim and his favourite withering put- down "the Herd"
To be honest, I’m pretty sure “The Herd” terminology long pre-dated tim’s arrival. I may even have coined it myself. I was certainly an early adopter. At one point OGH announced that the next person to type Herd would be immediately banished. He was great at being Mr Angry.
i know Tim was banned a number of times but surely not for using the word Herd?
IIRC, Tim and this dissolute loser we used to have on this site called SeanT got into some kind of blazing argument.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
No Aristotle though.
Never took to Aristotle. Too much of a Statist in every sense of the word.
Are we allowed to speculate on who’s gonna win Wagatha Christie? I’m no lawyer but seems obvious to me
When you have to explain to the judge as a start that ten pieces of important documentation have gone missing in a case you have brought yourself, it is to say the least not a good look.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
Remain campaign was crap but at least it wasn’t xenophobic. Better to be crap than a xenophobe.
And that challenge about mounting a substantive argument?
And you're a xenophobe. You hate and despise the English white working classes, and you are not, I think, English?
The latest Brexit noise and various other straws in the wind tell me that the West’s fear of WW3 is fading.
When we were all threatened by an actual enemy it’s remarkable how quickly we put aside our differences. Now everyone’s relaxed a bit so Britain’s back to threatening article 16, Austria is vetoing Ukrainian EU membership and the Americans are arguing about abortion.
Which probably makes it the most dangerous period of the war, and an opportunity for Putin.
Okay, so Brexit is done. I'm putting my 'bloke on the Clapham omnibus who voted for Brexit' hat on and asking - what difference has it made to my life? I'm struggling. I'm aware of some downsides, though they don't affect me much. But what are the upsides? Okay, I hear that wages have risen in some, but not that many, low-skilled sectors, but that may be as much due to Covid as Brexit, and anyway I don't work in a low-skilled sector.
So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
I've said this before, but our son had covid back in February. A few days after he tested positive, I started feeling poorly. The day after, so did Mrs J. Neither of us ever tested positive, but I'm fairly convinced it was Covid.
Someone on here (Andy Cooke?) says this is not unusual.
Yes, I’ve seen lots of anecdotes suggesting testing needs to be at the right time with omicron, so I may have tested positive a day or two later. Or it might have been a different virus.
Comments
And will they be able to maintain SNP supremacy?
Next GE certainly more 2017 than 2019 results wise, nat turnout will be the big issue I think
More Lab gaining of course than Con but some interesting 3 ways I suspect
The problem started when you put a keyboard in front of him.
On matters EU, there's nothing to stop a Party putting in its manifesto a plan to commence negotiations with the European Union with a view to Britain re-joining.
This would be caveated with the pledge any future membership package would be fully publicised and explained before being put to the British people in a referendum.
In other words, you do the negotiation, get a membership package and then put it to the people for approval.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
There is no going back now but blaming others may be a consolation but the blame is nearer to home
And I voted remain
Not that early on on life, I discovered that a particular grandparent that I had thought was from a particular part of England, like my grandmother, was in fact from a particular country in Continental Europe. This helped me develop an interest in the place, although I'd already been a few times and liked it, and even develop a certain amount more of a partial identification with it ; even to the extent of using his original name on one of my alternate emails, for instance.
When I see that particular hostility and innate suspicion of Continental Europe which doesn't feel natural or familiar to me at all, I occasionally ask myself if that discovery of that corner of our family is what makes it so unrecognisable for my own particular point of view.
But every time, I come to the same conclusion ; I only discovered that about halfway through life, and had much the same view before. A large part of my family were generations of Liberals, and before that religious Nonconformists who I even found out had enthusiastic ties to a particular Continental protestant community hundreds of years ago.
I think suspicion of Europe is baked into Toryism a very long way back too.
The truth is negotiating our entry into the EU wouldn't be a five-minute job and I suspect would require a Government with at least two full terms.
I REALLY miss @RodCrosby
He was funny and quirky and a little bit vulnerable. A terrible shame he got himself lost in Ho@loc&ust madness
He was, most importantly, a brilliant number-cruncher and electoral prognosticator. Swingback!
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
The LibDems were never going to sign up to any kind of Brexit, while the Labour Party under Corbyn (who was ironically quite pro-Brexit) was never going to be seen to support a Conservative government.
There was therefore absolutely no possibility (except with a few notable exceptions such as Stephen Lloyd of the LDs) of getting something through with cross party support.
Cameron's fault sure. Corbyn's too. But not random unknown poster on pb.com.
Why is this?
We are not going back in my lifetime. My biggest personal loss was freedom of movement. I lost and have sucked it up, but Johnson and Co telling me how fantastic Brexit is, and I just can't see it because I am a traitorous Remoaner sticks in the craw.
Also, my absolute FAVORITE story of CS Lewis was his horror when a woman wrote him about The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe explaining how the "birth channel" of the wardrobe and the "pubic hair" of the fur coats within was so touching and accurate.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AnaMardoll/status/1523003621251506178
There are half of the countries opposing the proposed outcome of the latest set of "More EU" proposals, and the integrationist and the Brussels Yellow Press are not happy.
Meanwhile, Brussels are in decently sized dispute with all 5 of their top trading partners (CN, US, RU, CH and UK).
I'm not yet hearing any noises from the Lib Dems re: the Wales proposals - are you?
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
In the end, there was 1 million from Poland alone
Liars
I’m in the same boat, as is my wife and most of my family.
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
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They are themselves. They are Turks. They have problems. But they are good to go
The SNP group has grown from 13 to 16 councillors following last week’s local elections – making it the biggest political group in Perth and Kinross Council. But there will be no coalition arrangement.
What if Johnson doesn't pull out of the 2016 leadership election? I reckon he still wins it, after stabilising from Gove's betrayal. If so, does he negotiate like May and get criticised by the ERG? Was that inevitable or a product of her/her tactics? Or does he get to the 2019 deal right away? Or do his Leave credentials allow him to pursue a much softer Brexit and still be considered delivering (and would he want that)? I honestly don't know, but my gut is the first one.
Yepp, also aware of the Antifrank, Meeks, unread tumbleweed blog transition.
Tim, just come back! We need you. The Labour team around here is hardly sparkling.
People who complain that the Site is 'too left' or 'too right' don't appreciate how the political composition has fluctuated over the years. I'd say that currently it is as varied as it has ever been.
The only type that has always been conspicuous by its absence is the Scots Lab Supporter. For some reason they just don't show up here. (And of course people who like pineapple on their pizza, but that goes without saying.)
» show previous quotes
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive)
James Kelly
OldNat
Antifrank
Richard Nabavi
Easterross
Mark Senior (the clever bastard)
Andrea
and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
As far as I can tell you haven’t even changed your name since you denied the H@olcau///st
WTF. Mods?
There seem a large number on here who haven't.
Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
Someone on here (Andy Cooke?) says this is not unusual.
Leon?
He's telling the truth
OGH banned them both.
SeanT returned (albeit temporarily). Tim did not.
And you're a xenophobe. You hate and despise the English white working classes, and you are not, I think, English?
But... it's on BBC3!
When we were all threatened by an actual enemy it’s remarkable how quickly we put aside our differences. Now everyone’s relaxed a bit so Britain’s back to threatening article 16, Austria is vetoing Ukrainian EU membership and the Americans are arguing about abortion.
Which probably makes it the most dangerous period of the war, and an opportunity for Putin.
You trod dangerously close to the PB Cliche edge there. But escaped, just, with your reputation unblemished.
So a serious, genuine question. How has Brexit benefitted me, who voted for it? How has my government used these new freedoms/sovereignty to improve my life? If it was such a good idea, people ought to be able to answer this by now, with specific, tangible examples that affect me - but I'm struggling. Help.
Or it might have been a different virus.