1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
Remain campaign was crap but at least it wasn’t xenophobic. Better to be crap than a xenophobe.
And that challenge about mounting a substantive argument?
And you're a xenophobe. You hate and despise the English white working classes, and you are not, I think, English?
I don’t hate the white working class. I only hate lazy uneducated folk who want to put their woes on hard working foreigners.
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Not sure I want to know about your meatspace, but I too am covid-naïve.
StuartDickson said: » show previous quotes Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
Add Tabman to that list
I used to rather like Socrates. I also liked the fact that at one time we had both Plato and Socrates on PB.
Socrates (& Tabman) gave me a pounding one night on the causes of the 2nd WW
WW1 and the imperfect peace/punishment treaties are high on the list.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
It already has a form of PR. It is proposing to move to a rather unique form of PR, which seems expressly designed to ensure a permanent duopoly.
Welsh people should be up in arms about it, unless they literally don’t give a fuck about the legitimacy or competence of their own government.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
Earn more money, loser
Thankfully I don’t have to . So which Leon are we getting this evening , the interesting posts or the nonsense tinged with some unhinged ranting !
Both, I hope
The unhinged ranting is not unhinged, Your precious right to retire to the Algarve (without really having the income to justify it) was bought at the cost of the working poor in the UK, who suffered a literally unprecedented influx of workers from Eastern Europe, driving down their unskilled wages, because they were facing people willing to live ten to a room, and thus rendering their British lives IN BRITAIN almost unaffordable
Twats like you never think about THEM, Which is odd, given how much you lefties claim to be “on the side of the working classes”
Let’s recall the New Labour predictions of the E European influx. “13,000”.
In the end, there was 1 million from Poland alone
Liars
So we’re getting the abusive Leon this evening ! Have you thought of taking up an anger management course .
NO you fucker!!!
Also, no, as i get older and realise I have achieved and earned enough to make me mellow, I get increasingly, well, mellow
I am content with what I have done in life. God dealt me a tricky but promising hand, and I did the best I could. And it has been a total fucking hoot.
I am about to climb on my hired moped and speed back to my hotel despite being totally pissed so if I die, please tell my closest: I had a ton of fun, and Lo, it was good
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
Yes, over the years there have still been more regular or committed / activist Tory supporters, I would say ; this is one of the reasons I would say PB still leans somewhat more to the centre-right, at least as its general default setting when there isn't anything else particularly new or of note to talk about.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
Yes, overall there's more regular or committed Tory supporters ; this is one of the reasons I would say PB still leans somewhat more to the centre-right, at least as its default setting when there isn't too much else of note to talk about.
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
He was funny and quirky and a little bit vulnerable. A terrible shame he got himself lost in Ho@loc&ust madness
He was, most importantly, a brilliant number-cruncher and electoral prognosticator. Swingback!
Rod had but a single problem.
He couldn't stop talking about the holocaust. We'd give him lots and lots of warnings. "Rod, we love you please stop talking about the holocaust". And he'd stop. And then then next evening, when the red wine was coursing through his veins... he'd forget his earnest promises, and he'd get back on to the holocaust.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
It was in a bit of trouble when Cameron's "renegotiation" - the central basis for going to the voters with our new, shiny, improved deal with the EU - was put on the verboten list.
By the Remain campaign.
Thereby acknowledging the very reason many of those voting Leave "actually have a point". And meaning Cameron had to defend the UK's position in the EU prior to the renegotiation - the shit position that required a renegotiation.
And then Cameron called us Little Englanders for rubbishing his rubbish deal. Way to go, Dave. Add anger, indignation and determination to vote against him to the list.
Reading between the lines, might be worst case outcome for SKS. And why are labour 'sources' allowing him to be portrayed as planning weasalling out on a technicality. Are they thick? Or have they received bad news?
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
😆 I remember that. A poster so undesirable that even his name is registered in the filter. Poor old @Stuartinromford when Robert finally pulls my plug.
In the early days of this obscure blog, it was impossible to write the word ‘socialist’ due to some email scam involving part of that word. Made talking about Tommy Sheridan’s political party slightly problematic.
What about Tim - anyone remember him?
Tim was a mighty colossus upon the PB stage, slaying the Herd with apparent ease. My favourite Labourite PBer of all time (Roger is a national treasure, but he just doesn’t have the scything grace of Tim).
I’ve seen Tim single-handedly destroy a 40-strong Herd. The Clint Eastwood of PB. It was terrifying to witness.
Other favourites include (by no means exhaustive) James Kelly OldNat Antifrank Richard Nabavi Easterross Mark Senior (the clever bastard) Andrea and one or two who are still about so I won’t embarrass
He was funny and quirky and a little bit vulnerable. A terrible shame he got himself lost in Ho@loc&ust madness
He was, most importantly, a brilliant number-cruncher and electoral prognosticator. Swingback!
Rod had but a single problem.
He couldn't stop talking about the holocaust. We'd give him lots and lots of warnings. "Rod, we love you please stop talking about the holocaust". And he'd stop. And then then next evening, when the red wine was coursing through his veins... he'd forget his earnest promises, and he'd get back on to the holocaust.
But didn't he have a magnificent set of Hungarian implants?
Nonsense of VAR...Aston Villa were offside in build up to goal.
No, I think that was fair enough. There will be times when the linesman gets it wrong in the other direction. And in those cases, the game stops so we don’t know what would have happened if the game had continued. So we never know about the goals that never happened because the play was stopped incorrectly.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
Yes, overall there's more regular or comitted Tory supporters ; this is one of the reasons I would say PB still leans more to the centre-right, at least as a default.
Of course there was the time when Ukip and other groups were commanding large support. I don't think PB ever quite attracted a committed Ukip / Farage cohort, or similar parties. But that may be because the non-Ukip/Farage outfits were a lot nastier. I feel that the most represented group may be ex-Cameroon Remainers followed by regular Lib Dems. Wouldn't say that was centre-right. Would guess that the average comment would vote for a mix-n-match government over Johnson in a forced choice.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
There used to be a girl on here called Apocalypse who was a moderate Labour supporter.
Very much missed as relief from the endless ranting by the gammonati about the BBC license.
The only true Labour voter on here in my opinon was Paul - West Ham Fan - hope I got that right - can anyone remember him?
There are a surprising number of West Ham fans on here - myself included.
That was his poster name - Paul West Ham Fan
Ah sorry I don't remember him. I was trying to remember when I joined PB. I think it was a couple of years after it started. If I remember rightly about the time Brown became PM as I don't remember discussing Blair on here when he was PM.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
There used to be a girl on here called Apocalypse who was a moderate Labour supporter.
Very much missed as relief from the endless ranting by the gammonati about the BBC license.
There was also S**nT's 20-year old Corbynite girlfriend.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
When did we gain independence? Did I sleepwalk into it?? Damn I missedvthe after party..
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
Hang on. Somewhere between 60 and 90%? That's a pretty large range. Is no one counting anymore?
Unless you have some sort of genetic immunity to Covid (I suspect we might at some point discover that this exists) and/or you have literally never left the house in the past three years, the chances of you having had covid by now must be at or near 100%.
It is inevitable that you will catch it unless you have somehow managed to exist without ever seeing another human being.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
It already has a form of PR. It is proposing to move to a rather unique form of PR, which seems expressly designed to ensure a permanent duopoly.
Welsh people should be up in arms about it, unless they literally don’t give a fuck about the legitimacy or competence of their own government.
I’m not saying the changes are right (or wrong). I’m questioning the claim that FPTP alone has been endorsed by the voters. Sorry, I could’ve been clearer on that.
I would be interested to see an analysis of how much difference these changes would have. What is being suggested is not as significant as, say, changing from FPTP to STV (as the Scottish local elections did).
The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.
It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.
Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.
Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.
Central government should step in.
“Central government” chortle.
Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.
There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.
I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.
I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
There used to be a girl on here called Apocalypse who was a moderate Labour supporter.
Very much missed as relief from the endless ranting by the gammonati about the BBC license.
There was also S**nT's 20-year old Corbynite girlfriend.
This site was of course in its early years predominately Lib Dem - the only lacking thing now is Labour voters who voted Leave
First few months maybe. They very quickly got overtaken by Tories, although we’re always a significant minority until the coalition implosion.
You are most probably right - I use to like taking the mickey out of the Lib Dems but my favorite posters were LDs
There have never been many regular Labour supporters, have there? I can't remember the entirety of the last 13 years of reading. Obviously a relatively strong representation of ex-MPs but I mean ordinary folk who were activists or even just loyal voters.
Yes, overall there's more regular or comitted Tory supporters ; this is one of the reasons I would say PB still leans more to the centre-right, at least as a default.
Of course there was the time when Ukip and other groups were commanding large support. I don't think PB ever quite attracted a committed Ukip / Farage cohort, or similar parties. But that may be because the non-Ukip/Farage outfits were a lot nastier. I feel that the most represented group may be ex-Cameroon Remainers followed by regular Lib Dems. Wouldn't say that was centre-right. Would guess that the average comment would vote for a mix-n-match government over Johnson in a forced choice.
I'd partially agree - but I think PB attracts the right of the lib dems much more than the left - see the majority view at most of the Lib Dem leadership elections over the last few years, for instance. To me that's another pillar of its vaguely and broadly centre-right identity, but as people have said, it's also unusual in hosting so many different voices.
Lots of a Labour Leavers – Owls, Wulfrun, Rentool to name the first three that just pop out of my head. Pioneers was also a Labour Leaver at the time (now a Lib) and Owls is a PB Tory these days.
The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.
It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.
Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.
Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.
Central government should step in.
“Central government” chortle.
Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.
There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.
I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.
I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though. This is a gerrymander.
At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, not rammed through by party apparatchiks.
The other interesting thing about the Welsh proposal is that it perma-locks PC into government.
And, presuming that PC would rather suicide than coalesce with the Tories, it does the same to Labour.
This is a gerrymander.
It's changing the electoral system without consulting the people to favour the ruling parties, it's the kind of thing we'd condemn were it to happen in Africa or South America.
It somewhat staggers me that we ever have the audacity to criticise other people's systems. We should be rightly proud of our freedom of speech and respect for the rule of law (except if your name is Boris), but our system of democracy is quasi-democracy at best. FPTP and the arbitrary nature of constituencies is ludicrous, and the HoL anachronistic. Then there is asymmetric devolution and some mayors in some places and not in others. It is a dogs dinner of a system. It needs wholesale reform, but both major parties make excuses and very little happens.
FPTP has been endorsed by voters, so whatever one thinks of it the voting system has popular support. Whatever they are doing in Wales hasn't been put to the people, they are quietly ramming it through and hoping that no one notices it locks the two parties proposing it in power in perpetuity.
Labour tried to do this in Scotland and look at how badly it's fucked up, it emboldened nationalists to become a "safe haven" for dissenters until suddenly nationalism in Scotland became a serious threat. This will produce the same idiotic result in Wales.
As for everything else in the UK, ultimately when we had big decisions to make the government put those decisions to the people. Changing the voting system and leaving the EU were both put to the people, not done on a whim. Few governments has that record of trusting the people and then following through with the decision, you might not agree with Brexit, but the fact that the people voted for it and we actually left the EU is a very powerful statement of democracy in the UK. There's not a lot of countries that would accept such a controversial vote and would try and undo it or have second, third, fourth votes until they got the "right" answer.
When Wales gained independence, it was on the back of a proposed Welsh Assembly elected by PR. The 2011 Welsh referendum was on the basis of an Assembly already elected by PR. So I think one can say that PR in Wales has also been endorsed by voters.
When did we gain independence? Did I sleepwalk into it?? Damn I missedvthe after party..
The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.
It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.
Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.
Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.
Central government should step in.
“Central government” chortle.
Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.
There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.
I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.
I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though. This is a gerrymander.
At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
Hang on. Somewhere between 60 and 90%? That's a pretty large range. Is no one counting anymore?
Not really no, when 99% have antibodies of one sort or another, it doesn’t really matter that much.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
Maybe read your post again
Yes politicians made a better case and won but you can hurl insults all day long but it will not change anything
The only way to change it is to work together to encourage the UK-EU into a better relationship, as indeed proposed by Macron today
Maybe you read your post again!
“…made a better case and won…”
You having a laugh? Seriously? With all due respect, you are a perfect example of my late father’s favourite expression - there is no fool like an old fool!
I thought it was widely accepted the Remain campaign was a bit crap.
Remain campaign was crap but at least it wasn’t xenophobic. Better to be crap than a xenophobe.
And that challenge about mounting a substantive argument?
And you're a xenophobe. You hate and despise the English white working classes, and you are not, I think, English?
I don’t hate the white working class. I only hate lazy uneducated folk who want to put their woes on hard working foreigners.
If they weren't lazy and uneducated they would probably stop being working class before long - although they would probably still be white.
The proposed changes in Wales are an absolute stitch-up.
It will mean you need to get over 16% in one of the 16 “electorates” in order to get representation in the Senedd.
Goodbye any chances for LDs, Greens, and those assorted Brexit ultras.
Add the fact that the lists are closed, and they want to add 16 SDs, and this is very much a “jobs for the boyos”.
Central government should step in.
“Central government” chortle.
Moscow is not the only “central government” with satellite states.
It’s farcical that Wales (or Scotland, or Cornwall) should be able to unilaterally change its electoral system.
There should be some kind of check, both at federal level (minimum stamdards) and probably with the need for referendum too.
I am sure that would be the case in Sweden.
Why ? It is Welsh people voting for a Welsh government. And which was promised in manifestos of both Plaid and WLab. It is nothing to do with anyone else. If LDs or Greens want to get elected they simply need to win more votes. In reality you should be able to win a seat on about 12-14% - which is enough to keep the likes of BNP/ATWA etc out.
Ah, if it was in the manifestos: that's different.
I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
Devolution doesn’t mean going rogue, though. This is a gerrymander.
At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, but rammed through by party apparatchiks.
It's in the manifesto. What more dfo you want? A referendum?
At least.
Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.
Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity inside the UK.
I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
Unless you have some sort of genetic immunity to Covid (I suspect we might at some point discover that this exists) and/or you have literally never left the house in the past three years, the chances of you having had covid by now must be at or near 100%.
It is inevitable that you will catch it unless you have somehow managed to exist without ever seeing another human being.
That rather ignores the vaccination effect. I’m not convinced we’ve all had it, but we do all have antibodies.
Unless you have some sort of genetic immunity to Covid (I suspect we might at some point discover that this exists) and/or you have literally never left the house in the past three years, the chances of you having had covid by now must be at or near 100%.
It is inevitable that you will catch it unless you have somehow managed to exist without ever seeing another human being.
That rather ignores the vaccination effect. I’m not convinced we’ve all had it, but we do all have antibodies.
Do vax actually reduce the chances of contracting it much (even asymptomatically)? Of course, there's a nontrivial amount of people who have it but without any symptoms. Mrs Anab had barely a sniffle – she would have been none the wiser were it not for her doing a test when I had Man-Covid.
Are there any stats on what percentage have had Covid? There seem a large number on here who haven't. Am not aware of very many in my meatspace who haven't. Two less in the past two days.
Somewhere between 60 and 90% have had Covid. It’s not surprising that some on here haven’t. We may also have had it without realising. My cold of 8 weeks ago may have been, but a negative test suggested not, but only one test, so maybe. If it was Covid, I’ve had worse hangovers. (Thanks vaccines!)
Hang on. Somewhere between 60 and 90%? That's a pretty large range. Is no one counting anymore?
It's not clear to me why we are still counting TBH.
For those wanting to move to an EU country now the income requirements have almost doubled. This makes it much more difficult . Retiring there is now almost impossible unless you have a very good pension and huge savings , there is no longer reciprocal healthcare so you’d need private health cover .
Whether people would ever use their previous FOM rights isn’t the point , Brits had that right .
This is one of the main reasons why the Brexit wounds will be very hard to heal , in most votes the large scale removal of rights doesn’t happen .
It did however with Brexit .
Leavers often fail to understand this aspect and some almost gleeful , as if it’s only the metropolitan elite who enjoyed FOM and so the attitude has been suck it up you lost . We also heard the same attitude about Erasmus.
For those of us lucky enough to have qualified for an EU passport through parents , the anger is somewhat mollified but there’s a lot of people out there who aren’t that lucky.
An absolutely great post which demonstrates why some of us were so disappointed by the Leave win and subsequent hard as nails Brexit.
I daresay Boris Johnson would meet the financial requirements and could afford the health insurance.
Beeb cause national security headache by breaking embargo that the cabinet are meeting in Staffs Thursday
Does Putin have any assets in Uttoxeter?
Russia assets would stick out - they wouldn't be dribbling on the floor.
(I went to school in Uttoxeter, and lived just over the border. Have family for whom it is their nearest town, so I can joke about it. Also the only place I've ever been offered drugs by a kid outside a bus station.)
- “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?” (net)
Scotland -63 London -38 North -26 Midlands & Wales -20 Rest of South -18
GB -26
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1707; Fieldwork: 5-6 May 2022)
Yesterday SKS was given a golden opportunity to show he's a leader and he took it This is his second. The EU can be a big vote winner. He needs to grab it with both hands. Do a Blair. Don't be scared off because the so called Red Wall don't like foreigners. Sell it to them and get the best talent available to help you do it.
You're Andrew Adonis and I claim my £5 Do we still do that?
You’re harking back to the days when folk like… oh, I dunno, Antifrank, Plato, Martin Day, Andrea and… er… SeanT were the core of the daily threads. I wonder what happened to them all?
Plato passed away. Dont know about the others. Martin used to be a banned word, it took me ages to work out why a pithy post (it wasnt) about Martine maccutcheon wasn't allowed
I'm intrigued by this Martin/banned word business. What's all that about?
Martin had… issues.
Was good fun in those days, some real ding dongs
Fitaloon and Fitalass were a particularly precious duo as I recall.
1. Boris Johnson 2. Nigel Farage 3. Theresa May 4. David Cameron 5. Jeremy Corbyn 6. Jo Swinson
No wonder it all fucked up.
Well all that says is just how poor the remain supporters were and some still seem to think hurling abuse to those who support leaving the EU will enhance their chance of re-joining
It’s not abuse BigG, it’s the truth! Cameron is a fucking idiot.
Poison, toxic, xenophobic!
All you ever do here is call people morons, thickos, idiots and fat. You have never constructed an argument about anything - not even a wrong, stupid, dishonest or simplistic argument. Niente.
Comments
It is proposing to move to a rather unique form of PR, which seems expressly designed to ensure a permanent duopoly.
Welsh people should be up in arms about it, unless they literally don’t give a fuck about the legitimacy or competence of their own government.
Also, no, as i get older and realise I have achieved and earned enough to make me mellow, I get increasingly, well, mellow
I am content with what I have done in life. God dealt me a tricky but promising hand, and I did the best I could. And it has been a total fucking hoot.
I am about to climb on my hired moped and speed back to my hotel despite being totally pissed so if I die, please tell my closest: I had a ton of fun, and Lo, it was good
He couldn't stop talking about the holocaust. We'd give him lots and lots of warnings. "Rod, we love you please stop talking about the holocaust". And he'd stop. And then then next evening, when the red wine was coursing through his veins... he'd forget his earnest promises, and he'd get back on to the holocaust.
By the Remain campaign.
Thereby acknowledging the very reason many of those voting Leave "actually have a point". And meaning Cameron had to defend the UK's position in the EU prior to the renegotiation - the shit position that required a renegotiation.
And then Cameron called us Little Englanders for rubbishing his rubbish deal. Way to go, Dave. Add anger, indignation and determination to vote against him to the list.
Thick Of It, meet Mr Kafka....
Reading between the lines, might be worst case outcome for SKS.
And why are labour 'sources' allowing him to be portrayed as planning weasalling out on a technicality. Are they thick? Or have they received bad news?
I feel that the most represented group may be ex-Cameroon Remainers followed by regular Lib Dems. Wouldn't say that was centre-right. Would guess that the average comment would vote for a mix-n-match government over Johnson in a forced choice.
Very much missed as relief from the endless ranting by the gammonati about the BBC license.
New Thread
Somewhere between 60 and 90%?
That's a pretty large range. Is no one counting anymore?
It is inevitable that you will catch it unless you have somehow managed to exist without ever seeing another human being.
I would be interested to see an analysis of how much difference these changes would have. What is being suggested is not as significant as, say, changing from FPTP to STV (as the Scottish local elections did).
I am uneasy, also, that people on PB cannot always accept the idea that devolution means making different decisions.
Long may that continue.
Lots of a Labour Leavers – Owls, Wulfrun, Rentool to name the first three that just pop out of my head. Pioneers was also a Labour Leaver at the time (now a Lib) and Owls is a PB Tory these days.
This is a gerrymander.
At least it should be sanctioned explicitly by voters, not rammed through by party apparatchiks.
Personally I don’t think you should change electoral systems without a referendum.
Secondly I don’t think you should be able to change electoral systems to anything you want; there ought to be minimal “standards” applicable to any political entity inside the UK.
I don’t think anyone’s thought this through, or they just think the Greens or whoever should campaign better, but if you do the maths it’s very clear what this new system delivers.
I daresay Boris Johnson would meet the financial requirements and could afford the health insurance.
(I went to school in Uttoxeter, and lived just over the border. Have family for whom it is their nearest town, so I can joke about it. Also the only place I've ever been offered drugs by a kid outside a bus station.)