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Partial turnout data does more harm than good – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited May 2022 in General
imagePartial turnout data does more harm than good – politicalbetting.com

As a long-standing gambler on elections, I’ve always found the day itself to be somewhat odd. The betting speculation reaches a crescendo, and judging by the betting exchanges the punting itself does so too. But it’s the only day for months where we don’t actually get any new information to update our predictions.

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Comments

  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570
    Unexpected thread in the bagging area.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,706
    edited April 2022
    Betting swings on election day are no better at predicting results than a stopped clock is at telling the time.
    This implies that you can make money by just assuming the odds at the start of the day are correct and betting against any deviation from them on the day. Does this check out if you model that strategy over some previous elections? Would you have made money if you'd done that?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited April 2022

    Betting swings on election day are no better at predicting results than a stopped clock is at telling the time.

    This implies that you can make money by just assuming the odds at the start of the day are correct and betting against any deviation from them on the day. Does this check out if you model that strategy over some previous elections? Would you have made money if you'd done that?

    I don't have the access to historical data to properly backtest this, but that's exactly what I suspect. If you bet on any significantly lengthening odds on election day I think you'd make a profit.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,706
    One thing I think Shadsy was saying on one of the US podcasts was that people often make incorrect assumptions about which side will benefit from increased turnout. This checked out in the US election: People assumed (correctly) that a lot of Dems would be motivated to kick out Trump and thought high turnout would imply the Dems out-performing their polls, but what actually happened was that Dems turned out solidly for Biden as expected, but the overall strong turnout came from an equal-and-opposite performance from the Trump side.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Great thread Quincel.

    I remember the 'YouthQuake' in 2017, which turned out to be nonsense, or as the BBC puts it 'a myth'.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42747342

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,166

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    The correct figure is 78.3%. 5,373 candidates for 6,859 seats. Those are the totals for Britain.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923
    Andy_JS said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    The correct figure is 78.3%. 5,373 candidates for 6,859 seats. Those are the totals for Britain.
    If that includes Scotland, then that will - presumably - include multimember constituencies where Labour is not contesting the fifth seat.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there are *rumours* that Russia might attempt a landing in Transnistria to open a new front from there, or to tie down Ukrainian and NATO forces in the west.

    At the same time, a curfew has been called in Odessa, partly due to intelligence that Russia is paying fifth columnists in the area to strike.

    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc. However a 'landing' in Transnistria might make sense (although it is landlocked, it has access to the Black Sea via the Dniester river). It would make a landing pretty much unopposed, and cause significant issues for NATO, Moldova, and Ukraine.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889
    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    So not exactly widespread.

    I'm assuming this discussion is in response to Glen Owen and Dan Hodges whingeing about poor Boris being stitched up.

    I think a psychiatrist needs to attend Northcliffe House.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited May 2022



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923
    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    My point is that @bigjohnowls was suggesting that the Labour Party was not standing in huge swathes of the country. When we're actually talking about a few council wards in the South West.

    It's also not like-with-like: in 2018 there was no Somerset,.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317

    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there are *rumours* that Russia might attempt a landing in Transnistria to open a new front from there, or to tie down Ukrainian and NATO forces in the west.

    At the same time, a curfew has been called in Odessa, partly due to intelligence that Russia is paying fifth columnists in the area to strike.

    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc. However a 'landing' in Transnistria might make sense (although it is landlocked, it has access to the Black Sea via the Dniester river). It would make a landing pretty much unopposed, and cause significant issues for NATO, Moldova, and Ukraine.

    I can't see this going particularly well based on the performance of the Russian army to date; but they seem to be fond of poorly thought out suicide missions, so who knows.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited May 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    My point is that @bigjohnowls was suggesting that the Labour Party was not standing in huge swathes of the country. When we're actually talking about a few council wards in the South West.

    It's also not like-with-like: in 2018 there was no Somerset,.
    Exactly.

    It's one of the more absurd Mail on Sunday stories but there's stiff competition in recent months from within their own newspaper.

    Honestly think the Mail have lost the plot: like seriously gone yumpy.*

    (* Uncle Vernon)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    "certain type of armchair expert"

    (I'll put this more politely than Malc would): Oh, do go away, dear fellow. Over there. Then go away a little further. No, that's not far enough. A little further, please. Nope, still not far enough. ;)

    It's a major news story. It has, and will, have an effect on UK politics. It seems fair enough to discuss it on here - probably more so than (say) AI, UFOs or gronks, hoovers or tractors.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Good morning

    May has arrived and this is the month the conservative mps just have to act and vote Boris out of office

    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    The misdemeanours of mps, not just the idiotic Neil Parish, but others and let us not forget there are reports that 3 cabinet ministers, 2 shadow cabinet ministers and 56 mps are under investigation for sleaze, and of course Liam Byrne was found guilty of bullying and harassment

    It is little reported but labour mp Mary Foy launched a drunken tirade against conservative mp Richard Holden on the Commons Terrace in front of members for which she has since sent a written apology to him

    However, we must not tar every mp with unacceptable and inappropriate behaviour as the vast majority across all parties work honestly and diligently for their constituents

    Indeed this tweet from Jess Phillips gives hope that those mps who rightly have had enough are standing up for integrity and decency and give us hope that a new era will dawn, but it has to start with Boris being voted out of office and it is just these conservative women mps, and others, who need to act and act this month

    Jess Philips MP

    'Counterpoint to all the Westminster is dreadful stuff. Women in Westminster this week, by and large Tory women made themselves heard, worked together supportively and succeeded in their aims to have action taken. I know it might not seem like it but I'd call that progress'.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited May 2022

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    It's a major news story.
    It is. But it's 1000 miles away. It's not the UK. It's not really our politics. There are plenty of military sites on which to go and post your latest tactical observations and manoeuvre your toy soldiers.

    It's a shame in a way that this site can't operate sub-threads then all you boys with toys could go off to your dorms and discuss it to your hearts' content.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.
    They might but I'm not bothered what they think. This is, often, these days a site inhabited by a lot of old white men with nothing better to do than salivate about war.

    For a 'gal who hates conflict it's tedious. There are plenty of other places they can go to have their vicarious days back.

    Have a nice Sunday everyone :smile::wink:

    xx
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Heathener said:

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
    The party really do not need Frost being parachuted into the constituents

    They need a local candidate and preferably female
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    It's a major news story.
    It is. But it's 1000 miles away. It's not the UK. It's not really our politics. There are plenty of military sites on which to go and post your latest tactical observations and manoeuvre your toy soldiers.

    It's a shame in a way that this site can't operate sub-threads then all you boys with toys could go off to your dorms and discuss it to your hearts' content.
    You really do yourself no favours with posts like this
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,923

    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there are *rumours* that Russia might attempt a landing in Transnistria to open a new front from there, or to tie down Ukrainian and NATO forces in the west.

    At the same time, a curfew has been called in Odessa, partly due to intelligence that Russia is paying fifth columnists in the area to strike.

    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc. However a 'landing' in Transnistria might make sense (although it is landlocked, it has access to the Black Sea via the Dniester river). It would make a landing pretty much unopposed, and cause significant issues for NATO, Moldova, and Ukraine.

    Although it is worth remembering that Russia is not exactly overflowing with elite (but idle) units that are ready to open a sixth front.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.
    They might but I'm not bothered what they think. This is, often, these days a site inhabited by a lot of old white men with nothing better to do than salivate about war.

    For a 'gal who hates conflict it's tedious. There are plenty of other places they can go to have their vicarious days back.

    Have a nice Sunday everyone :smile::wink:

    xx
    Really what is the point of this post aside from a little bait and run. People here discuss the war, for sure, but no one is ‘salivating’ over it. It is a major news story with a major impact on the global economy.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    The huge difference is that this war is in Europe and is affecting everything from defence, security to serious economic shocks, not least the cost of living crisis

    Indeed it could evolve into Europe's worst nightmare of use of nuclear weapons

    You may want to sideline it, but that is not going to happen and indeed is disrespectful to Ukraine and its suffering people
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but there are *rumours* that Russia might attempt a landing in Transnistria to open a new front from there, or to tie down Ukrainian and NATO forces in the west.

    This sounds completely mental but, as this is 2022, it'll probably happen.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    On topic - my possible faulty memory is that at nearly every election we get reports during the day of huge queues or empty polling stations yet invariably the turnout turns out to be normal.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    "No data is bad data"

    All data are imperfect. Bad data are a problem you solve with careful data science. If the posterior is the prior, then meaningful inferences cannot be drawn.

    No data are a problem you solve by going out and getting data.

    Certainly, there is a threshold when the data are so riddled with sampling or selection effects that it is more work to analyse than to go out and get more data.

    However, bad data are only worse than no data because there is inevitably someone (normally Robert Peston or some other axe-grinder) who tries to present invalid findings on that dataset.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    kjh said:

    On topic - my possible faulty memory is that at nearly every election we get reports during the day of huge queues or empty polling stations yet invariably the turnout turns out to be normal.

    Who can forget all those tweets posted in December 2019 with pictures of queues at polling stations.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
    Sorry to hear of your aches and pains.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    kjh said:

    On topic - my possible faulty memory is that at nearly every election we get reports during the day of huge queues or empty polling stations yet invariably the turnout turns out to be normal.

    The only times when it was different were the Scottish independence as EU referendums.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
    My wife and I share your comments - must keep taking the pills !!!!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.
    They might but I'm not bothered what they think. This is, often, these days a site inhabited by a lot of old white men with nothing better to do than salivate about war.

    For a 'gal who hates conflict it's tedious. There are plenty of other places they can go to have their vicarious days back.

    Have a nice Sunday everyone :smile::wink:

    xx
    Really what is the point of this post aside from a little bait and run. People here discuss the war, for sure, but no one is ‘salivating’ over it. It is a major news story with a major impact on the global economy.
    And supplies of food and fossil fuels.
    I'm sure @Heathener knows and can assert this war will have absolutely no effect on European politics.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    It's a major news story.
    It is. But it's 1000 miles away. It's not the UK. It's not really our politics. There are plenty of military sites on which to go and post your latest tactical observations and manoeuvre your toy soldiers.

    It's a shame in a way that this site can't operate sub-threads then all you boys with toys could go off to your dorms and discuss it to your hearts' content.
    Or a knitting section where you could go and bore the knitters to death
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
    Hope things brighten up for you OKC.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    It's a major news story.
    It is. But it's 1000 miles away. It's not the UK. It's not really our politics. There are plenty of military sites on which to go and post your latest tactical observations and manoeuvre your toy soldiers.

    It's a shame in a way that this site can't operate sub-threads then all you boys with toys could go off to your dorms and discuss it to your hearts' content.
    Or a knitting section where you could go and bore the knitters to death
    Morning Malc - hope you and your good lady are keeping well

    We have a trip arranged to our family in Lossiemouth in July and will be the first time we have met in over 2 years

    Amazing when you think about it that we have not been able to go north until recently
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,830
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.
    They might but I'm not bothered what they think. This is, often, these days a site inhabited by a lot of old white men with nothing better to do than salivate about war.

    For a 'gal who hates conflict it's tedious. There are plenty of other places they can go to have their vicarious days back.

    Have a nice Sunday everyone :smile::wink:

    xx
    Ageism, racism and sexism in one sentence!

    Imagine if someone said “Too many young black women on here; I’m off”…

    And why the hell would you put an apostrophe in front of gal? What letter(s) are you replacing? Fungal? Illegal?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
    My wife and I share your comments - must keep taking the pills !!!!
    Having spent a (professional) lifetime advising people to do that, I do try to take my own advice!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    The day that, if you say it three times, turns into an emergency!

    Mayday, mayday, mayday.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    kjh said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    Hello everybody!
    I won't say Good Morning, because it doesn't feel like that, either on here or chez Cole.

    On the two topics here, the war in Ukraine has already been going on, at a somewhat less vicious level, since 2013 or so..... see the annexation of Crimea a year later ...... and how is giving Frost a platform a benefit for the nation? Anyway, he'd have to resign his peerage, wouldn't he. An in the event of him losing, what would happen; would he be given it back?

    And as far as chez Cole is concerned, my various aches and pains, mainly associated with old age, seem to have decided that May 1st is a good time to enliven themselves.
    Sorry to hear of your aches and pains.
    Thank you; hope your mobility is improving, too.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    What would a Russian 'defeat' look like? Genuine question.
    And in any event, as you make clear, they have sufficient natural resources to be essential to the world economy. Short-term..... 25 years ..... at any rate.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,830
    Sandpit said:

    The day that, if you say it three times, turns into an emergency!

    Mayday, mayday, mayday.

    If you shout it once on the street in France someone might come and help.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,058
    The war in Ukraine will shape UK politics for a long time to come, both in terms of its direct impact of dominating headlines and its indirect impact on the cost of food and energy. So I would say understanding the current position and likely outcomes is important from a political betting perspective.

    For example, the current likelihood of a protracted war, with increasing isolation of Russia as Europe finds other energy providers, is unlikely to provide any relief on inflation and so the government's economic difficulties will continue.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,706
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    I feel like these two things are kind of at odds with each other. If sanctions don't significantly reduce Russian oil production, don't oil prices go back to normal? I mean, there's some efficiency loss whereby the EU can't buy oil by most efficient route and Russia can't sell it by the most efficient route, but presumably that mostly settles down over time as people readjust?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited May 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
    They think NATO should have engaged in direct conflict with Russia, but we shouldn't discuss it on a UK politics website. Just all over the place.

    Tisdall in the Observer today with similar black and white thinking. Either we should fully commit to joining the war, or we should pressurise Zelnskyy into making territorial concessions. I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war, but I don't think the only alternative to that is to concede Ukrainian territory to Putin.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Sandpit said:

    The day that, if you say it three times, turns into an emergency!

    Mayday, mayday, mayday.

    If you shout it once on the street in France someone might come and help.
    There's also the 'Clameur de haro' still, apparently available in the courts of the Channel Islands!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    What is it with Heatherwick and an obsession to with pot plants as a pale imitation of nature? They were behind the garden bridge too, and now a "tree of trees". https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/30/tree-of-trees-jubilee-sculpture-another-mound-ill-judged-public-art
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    What would a Russian 'defeat' look like? Genuine question.
    And in any event, as you make clear, they have sufficient natural resources to be essential to the world economy. Short-term..... 25 years ..... at any rate.
    Militarily, pushed back to the border; Ukraine’s military sufficiently strengthened to deter a repeat.

    As for any postwar settlement with Russia, I don’t know (and it’s unknowable whether the current regime would fall), but we should be thinking about it.

    I don’t know that Russia’s oil and gas will be essential for so long. Peak hydrocarbon use is probably only about five years off.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,830

    Sandpit said:

    The day that, if you say it three times, turns into an emergency!

    Mayday, mayday, mayday.

    If you shout it once on the street in France someone might come and help.
    There's also the 'Clameur de haro' still, apparently available in the courts of the Channel Islands!
    Do they still have to make hue and cry if they witness a crime?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    edited May 2022
    Either the person behind Heathener has done a Dr Who regeneration, or the instructed talking points have changed as the war develops. Presumably it’s gone from “suck the decadent West into an unwinnable war” to “shit we’re losing, encourage them to get bored of it all quick”.

    Good luck with that one, $33bn of US lend lease, an impending EU ban on Urals crude and a sudden strategic cohesion around the goal of rolling Russia back to pre-2014 borders. Can’t speak for other places but yellow and blue still flutters from flagpoles and bedroom windows everywhere you go in my corner of Brexitland.

    How’s your vpn by the way? You managed to move to a safer one yet?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
    They think NATO should have engaged in direct conflict with Russia, but we shouldn't discuss it on a UK politics website. Just all over the place.

    Tisdall in the Observer today with similar black and white thinking. Either we should fully commit to joining the war, or we should pressurise Zelnskyy into making territorial concessions. I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war, but I don't think the only alternative to that is to concede Ukrainian territory to Putin.
    " I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war ..."

    It is wrong to send other people's sons and daughters to die at your behest.

    If the families of the armchairs want to contribute their own sons and daughters and nieces and nephews to armoured brigades, that is fine.

    We can call it a Brigade of the Little'uns ... in honour of one pb.com's finest armchairs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    What would a Russian 'defeat' look like? Genuine question.
    And in any event, as you make clear, they have sufficient natural resources to be essential to the world economy. Short-term..... 25 years ..... at any rate.
    Militarily, pushed back to the border; Ukraine’s military sufficiently strengthened to deter a repeat.

    As for any postwar settlement with Russia, I don’t know (and it’s unknowable whether the current regime would fall), but we should be thinking about it.

    I don’t know that Russia’s oil and gas will be essential for so long. Peak hydrocarbon use is probably only about five years off.
    In reverse order, I hope you are right about peak hydrocarbon use, although I wonder about use in Asia.
    I don't expect the current order in Russia to outlast Putin himself; I don't think there's an alternative 'strongman' but I'm no expert.
    Wouldn't 'pushed back to the pre-2014 borders' mean a series of low level incursions, sabotage and so on? With a risk of nastier flare-ups every so often?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    rcs1000 said:

    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    My point is that @bigjohnowls was suggesting that the Labour Party was not standing in huge swathes of the country. When we're actually talking about a few council wards in the South West.

    It's also not like-with-like: in 2018 there was no Somerset,.
    You aren't listening properly. Kier Starmer is a Bad Man. And must be defeated. Only by electing Tories can we look forward the the day when we get a Labour government.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Frosty standing would be almost as good an idea as the Brexit deal he negotiated.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
    They think NATO should have engaged in direct conflict with Russia, but we shouldn't discuss it on a UK politics website. Just all over the place.

    Tisdall in the Observer today with similar black and white thinking. Either we should fully commit to joining the war, or we should pressurise Zelnskyy into making territorial concessions. I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war, but I don't think the only alternative to that is to concede Ukrainian territory to Putin.
    " I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war ..."

    It is wrong to send other people's sons and daughters to die at your behest.

    If the families of the armchairs want to contribute their own sons and daughters and nieces and nephews to armoured brigades, that is fine.

    We can call it a Brigade of the Little'uns ... in honour of one pb.com's finest armchairs.
    You're effectively arguing for military government.

    What else is civilian control of the military - a cornerstone of democracy - if not sending other people sons and daughters to die at your behest, if that is deemed necessary?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    I feel like these two things are kind of at odds with each other. If sanctions don't significantly reduce Russian oil production, don't oil prices go back to normal? I mean, there's some efficiency loss whereby the EU can't buy oil by most efficient route and Russia can't sell it by the most efficient route, but presumably that mostly settles down over time as people readjust?
    Not necessarily. Their export volumes could be halved, and their revenues still be higher than they were a year or so back.
    Oil can fairly easily be redirected; gas isn’t so easy, as the pipeline to other destinations than Europe are limited.
    Sanctions will slowly degrade production volumes as they’re not self sufficient in production equipment and engineering.

    And remember worldwide demand will rise for most of this decade.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795
    Heathener said:

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
    Some Tories obsession with Frost demonstrates their own stupidity.

    The man negotiated a deal he then claimed he was surprised operates the way it was written, wants us to discard much of it, supports the UK imposing one-way trade barriers on itself to make us uncompetitive, and then thinks people whose MP wanks off to Massey Fergusons will be impressed and vote for him instead.

    Are we really sure we didn't enter an Iannouchiverse some time in the past few years? That the prime timeline isn't watching "Armando's Brexit Bubble" every night on Sky pissing themselves at events in the stupid bubble universe parody created for their entertainment?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    tlg86 said:

    kjh said:

    On topic - my possible faulty memory is that at nearly every election we get reports during the day of huge queues or empty polling stations yet invariably the turnout turns out to be normal.

    The only times when it was different were the Scottish independence as EU referendums.
    The Scottish Indy ref was unique in my experience. Pretty much everyone who was going to vote at polling stations did by lunch time. We were monitoring all of the polling stations in Dundee and from about 1pm to 10pm they increased by no more than a couple of percent. Some polling stations didn't move at all.

    The other, more general, problem is that given the increasing tendency towards postal voting means turnout at the polling stations means increasingly little. Which rather makes @Quincel's point.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng tells @RidgeOnSunday that Boris Johnson’s position is safe: “I don’t think his leadership’s under threat at all - what he’s delivered is a remarkable series of successes.”
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1520670067662458882
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    I feel like these two things are kind of at odds with each other. If sanctions don't significantly reduce Russian oil production, don't oil prices go back to normal? I mean, there's some efficiency loss whereby the EU can't buy oil by most efficient route and Russia can't sell it by the most efficient route, but presumably that mostly settles down over time as people readjust?
    Not necessarily. Their export volumes could be halved, and their revenues still be higher than they were a year or so back.
    Oil can fairly easily be redirected; gas isn’t so easy, as the pipeline to other destinations than Europe are limited.
    Sanctions will slowly degrade production volumes as they’re not self sufficient in production equipment and engineering.

    And remember worldwide demand will rise for most of this decade.
    Oil and gas embargos are pretty leaky. Gazprom (though obviously a biased source, the figures are quite specific) say that Poland is taking juast as much Russian gas as before, but they take zero directly and buy it from German companies by reversing the east-west pipeline flow. Gazprom is probably taking a price hit to do it, though.

    There's an interesting Oxford study here on why Russians who support Putin do it:

    https://medium.com/oxford-university/expert-comment-putins-russia-people-increasingly-identify-with-the-soviet-union-here-s-what-26981131a858

    It's positive that there's very little anti-western sentiment or expansionism in there (though the latest research is from 2021, so as they note the war may be driving an anti-western "rally round the flag" effect) - the driver seems to be hostility to market reforms plus cultural conservatism and nostalgia.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    The story Angela Rayner branded ‘a desperate, perverted smear’ was actually a story told by Angela Rayner herself, about herself. The language the PM condemned as ‘appalling, sexist, misogynist tripe’ was Angela Rayner’s language. The claim the Speaker condemned as ‘misogynistic and offensive’ was her own.

    Two weeks ago, as Tory whips desperately attempted to corral their MPs into blocking an inquiry by the Privileges Committee into whether the PM lied to the Commons over Partygate, Rayner tweeted: ‘You want the truth? They can’t handle the truth.’

    But after the events of the past seven days, a separate question must now be posed. Can she?


    https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/news/politics/176486

    So the Mail’s story, which claimed that Tory MPs had come forward to accuse Rayner of “Basic Instinct” was wrong.

    The whole thing is a bullshit dead cat, contrived to take heat off Boris. It was kind of working, until Neil Paris started masturbating to tractor porn.
    The funniest thing about the Mail's misogyny is that it has led to a Tory MP resigning over his porno habits, leading to a byelection.

    Karma...

    And we all now know that tractor porn is a thing. Which I didn't. Though I have a book on old tractors.

    Imagine being a MP remembered for duck houses, or moats, or tractor porn ...
    Most are not remembered at all, so at least he will, which is something.
    The Fon of Bafut approach?
    I might need some assistance with that reference.
    FPT for @kle to put him/her out of suspense - the Fon was the district king or chieftain (not sure of exact equivalent) in Bafut in (then) British Cameroon when Gerald Durrelll went collecting there in the late 40s/early 50s. He came over in Durrell's book The BAfut Beagles as an extremely amiable chap who liked his pink gins very much indeed. Durrell went back some years later for a repeat trip and was a little worried how the Fon would react to his portrayal, but the Fon gave him a huge welcome - he took the view (perhaps out of courtesy ...) that any publicity was good publicity.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gszshUMfjtsC&pg=PT87&lpg=PT87&dq=fon+durrell+publicity&source=bl&ots=9DsOvPMa2J&sig=ACfU3U2Suwb0urns2QxqpE-XCcRAlIGY3A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7hqa95r33AhV9QUEAHS23BJMQ6AF6BAgiEAM#v=onepage&q=temperance&f=false
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited May 2022

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
    They think NATO should have engaged in direct conflict with Russia, but we shouldn't discuss it on a UK politics website. Just all over the place.

    Tisdall in the Observer today with similar black and white thinking. Either we should fully commit to joining the war, or we should pressurise Zelnskyy into making territorial concessions. I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war, but I don't think the only alternative to that is to concede Ukrainian territory to Putin.
    " I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war ..."

    It is wrong to send other people's sons and daughters to die at your behest.

    If the families of the armchairs want to contribute their own sons and daughters and nieces and nephews to armoured brigades, that is fine.

    We can call it a Brigade of the Little'uns ... in honour of one pb.com's finest armchairs.
    You're effectively arguing for military government.

    What else is civilian control of the military - a cornerstone of democracy - if not sending other people sons and daughters to die at your behest, if that is deemed necessary?
    I am arguing for Switzerland. Our army should be like the Swiss Army.

    The Swiss Army is for the defence of Switzerland. It does not participate in other people's wars.

    It does contribute to peace-keeping missions under the auspices of the UN.

    You should not argue for a blood sacrifice by others unless you and your family are willing to make the sacrifice yourself.

    Otherwise, ...

    "Well, best of luck to you all. Sorry I can't be with you, but obviously there is no place at the front for an old general with a dicky heart and a wooden bladder ... See you all in Kyiv for coffee and cakes"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    A thread on Ukraine’s use of small commercial drones to drop improvised small bombs.
    https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1520561969153073153

    This is quite scary stuff beyond its immediate context. For well under £1m, a non state actor could have a swarm of 1000 of the small drones each carrying one of the antipersonnel grenades…
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    Turnout increases with uncertainty about the result. So the closer the polling the higher the turnout, cet par.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,795

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    True. However this government is also catastrophically incompetent. So we can trust that any whizzo wheeze the Big Dog comes up with to rig the election will be screwed up. Cripes!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    What makes you claim that the Tories control the Electoral Commission?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Heathener said:

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
    Some Tories obsession with Frost demonstrates their own stupidity.

    The man negotiated a deal he then claimed he was surprised operates the way it was written, wants us to discard much of it, supports the UK imposing one-way trade barriers on itself to make us uncompetitive, and then thinks people whose MP wanks off to Massey Fergusons will be impressed and vote for him instead.

    Are we really sure we didn't enter an Iannouchiverse some time in the past few years? That the prime timeline isn't watching "Armando's Brexit Bubble" every night on Sky pissing themselves at events in the stupid bubble universe parody created for their entertainment?
    It's to ensure that the Brexiters have a candidate ready for the next PM. No?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Red Alert: Dispatch from the Red Wall ahead of elections this week - a seat the Tories won just 12 months ago #northeast #Hartlepool

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18425956/boris-johnson-hartlepool-local-elections/
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    Heathener said:

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
    Yes, it'd be an interesting development of both the levelling-up agenda and the plan to have more women MPs. Perhaps Lord Frost could announce he is going trans?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    I just thought it was an odd demand by Dowden, but now that you have reminded me that the Conservative Party now own the Electoral Commission, Dowden's letter is not as daft as first appears.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    Scott_xP said:

    Red Alert: Dispatch from the Red Wall ahead of elections this week - a seat the Tories won just 12 months ago #northeast #Hartlepool

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18425956/boris-johnson-hartlepool-local-elections/

    Mmm, but it's one of those "theme" articles with six people quoted, all supporting the theme, and no polling. I don't believe that the entire population of Hartlepool feel the same way on anything. "Go and find some unhappy voters and write an article about them" is the underlying instruction for this sort of thing.

    That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the elections in Hartlepool do show a swing back towards Labour, like most places.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    Carnyx said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning



    I note the party have decided to seek 50% of their mps as women, and this is long overdue and hopefully they will install a woman candidate for Tiverton and North Devon

    Good morning Big G,

    According to today's Sunday Telegraph, Lord Frost is being urged to stand.

    I'm not convinced that would end well.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/30/lord-frost-urged-stand-neil-parishs-seat-by-election/
    Some Tories obsession with Frost demonstrates their own stupidity.

    The man negotiated a deal he then claimed he was surprised operates the way it was written, wants us to discard much of it, supports the UK imposing one-way trade barriers on itself to make us uncompetitive, and then thinks people whose MP wanks off to Massey Fergusons will be impressed and vote for him instead.

    Are we really sure we didn't enter an Iannouchiverse some time in the past few years? That the prime timeline isn't watching "Armando's Brexit Bubble" every night on Sky pissing themselves at events in the stupid bubble universe parody created for their entertainment?
    It's to ensure that the Brexiters have a candidate ready for the next PM. No?
    Frostie tells a certain kind of Conservative what they want to hear- We Hold All The Cards, so any failure is down to weakness on the part of our leaders.

    That theory has already destroyed Cameron and May, and it's weakening Johnson. But one more real push is bound to do the job.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Nigelb said:

    A thread on Ukraine’s use of small commercial drones to drop improvised small bombs.
    https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1520561969153073153

    This is quite scary stuff beyond its immediate context. For well under £1m, a non state actor could have a swarm of 1000 of the small drones each carrying one of the antipersonnel grenades…

    Indeed. The thread is making it clear that this sort of thing had been already happening in the Middle East (depending on how one defines a 'state', of course).
  • On topic, this is a header with which I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks Pip Moss.

    I'd go further and point to the bizarre way results are reported in the United States as one of the fundamental reasons they have had such allegations of vote rigging in recent elections. Results should not be announced on the drip as they do there. Each seat should be declared when all the votes are counted. In MEP elections we managed that, even when counts were being held in 70 or 80 different places for the same seat. It's quite possible.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,424

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    So you think that NATO should have been bombing Russia to enforce a no-fly zone, but don’t think NATO should have ‘intervened as such’?
    They think NATO should have engaged in direct conflict with Russia, but we shouldn't discuss it on a UK politics website. Just all over the place.

    Tisdall in the Observer today with similar black and white thinking. Either we should fully commit to joining the war, or we should pressurise Zelnskyy into making territorial concessions. I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war, but I don't think the only alternative to that is to concede Ukrainian territory to Putin.
    " I'm completely behind sending in NATO armoured brigades to join the war ..."

    It is wrong to send other people's sons and daughters to die at your behest.

    If the families of the armchairs want to contribute their own sons and daughters and nieces and nephews to armoured brigades, that is fine.

    We can call it a Brigade of the Little'uns ... in honour of one pb.com's finest armchairs.
    You're effectively arguing for military government.

    What else is civilian control of the military - a cornerstone of democracy - if not sending other people sons and daughters to die at your behest, if that is deemed necessary?
    I am arguing for Switzerland. Our army should be like the Swiss Army.

    The Swiss Army is for the defence of Switzerland. It does not participate in other people's wars.

    It does contribute to peace-keeping missions under the auspices of the UN.

    You should not argue for a blood sacrifice by others unless you and your family are willing to make the sacrifice yourself.

    Otherwise, ...

    "Well, best of luck to you all. Sorry I can't be with you, but obviously there is no place at the front for an old general with a dicky heart and a wooden bladder ... See you all in Kyiv for coffee and cakes"
    I understand the sentiment, but surely no one is naive enough to join the British Armed Forces and not think you might get sent on some silly foreign adventure, particularly after Iraq/Afghan.

    At the very least, you should be mentally prepared to end up walking across the Falklands, freezing in a bivvy.

    I'd have thought going into Ukraine to defend a European democracy is as worthy as it gets. Indeed, the urgent statements by the MOD warning people not to go over there would suggest there are plenty who would be up for it.

    (I don't think we should go into Ukraine, but that's not out of a concern for the people in the Armed Forces).
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:



    As ever, fog of war, rumours, etc, etc.

    I know it's awful but I find the news about Ukraine a switch-off, even more so the relish with which a certain type of armchair expert repeatedly posts on here about it.

    It's awful. It's messy. It's protracted. There's nothing else we need to know.
    Speak for yourself.
    An unkind person might say something similar about your posts.

    A few short weeks ago they were demanding NATO intervention and no fly zones.
    Well I still think we should have heeded Zelensky's demand for a NFZ but that was just a POV.

    I've never advocated NATO intervention as such.

    I accept this is avoidance but tbh the war in Ukraine could drag on for years. As it has in Kashmir, Yemen, Tigray and countless other places around the world.
    A no fly zone would be, effectively, NATO intervention.

    It does look, sadly, like we are in for the long haul.
    That is the big question.
    If the Russian invasion isn’t defeated this year, then it will affect all our lives far more than say Brexit. Energy costs alone will do to this decade what the oil crisis did to the 70s.
    And we’re unlikely to break Russia economically any time soon - their oil and gas revenues so far this year are considerably higher than they were last. Volumes might be down, but higher prices have more than compensated even though they have to discount to the world market to sell the stuff.
    I feel like these two things are kind of at odds with each other. If sanctions don't significantly reduce Russian oil production, don't oil prices go back to normal? I mean, there's some efficiency loss whereby the EU can't buy oil by most efficient route and Russia can't sell it by the most efficient route, but presumably that mostly settles down over time as people readjust?
    Not necessarily. Their export volumes could be halved, and their revenues still be higher than they were a year or so back.
    Oil can fairly easily be redirected; gas isn’t so easy, as the pipeline to other destinations than Europe are limited.
    Sanctions will slowly degrade production volumes as they’re not self sufficient in production equipment and engineering.

    And remember worldwide demand will rise for most of this decade.
    Russia is already down about a million bbl a day at wellhead. Most of that is probably permanently lost production capacity, due to technical difficulty at those wells and the suddenly lost expertise and technology imports. Chinese state owned companies aren’t buying Russian oil product cargos, the private sector there is less circumspect but not much. The Turks, Baltics and Scandinavians aren’t bringing in Urals at all.

    The assumption must be that the crude making it to the world market right now is largely being consumed in the three core EU countries. And that Russian domestic storage is now close to full.

    If core EU is on the verge of formally phasing out imports of Urals crude, what then? The EU sanctions that kick in 15th May make it very difficult to impractical for Russian crude to go transoceanic at any scale. It’s reckoned there are single digit number of super tankers without an EU link that would be unaffected by the sanctions. Let’s assume 10mins bbl of capacity. And generously a 40 day return transit time to India. Unless there are unforeseen holes in the sanctions regimen, we could conceivably see as little as a million bbl a day make it to market, versus the pre war level of 5-6 million. Say some slips through, 2mln bbl. It’s still crippling.

    So what then if domestic storage is also full? Further falls of production at wellhead is the only answer. Which would almost certainly have a serious long term impact on Russia’s oil production capacity. And the assumption must surely be that medium term Europe will have pivoted away from Russian gas too.

    By the end of his Z War, Putin is going to have a shell of a conventional army, his core export industry of hydrocarbons will be bust and Russia’s demographics will look even worse. But it will still have an extortionately expensive nuclear arsenal to maintain. Feels to me the next Presidents of the US and Russia are going to be on Time Magazine’s cover shaking hands on a historic multi lateral disarmament deal. Hard to see another outcome.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Cabinet minister denies there is a culture of misogyny as Westminster mired in scandal https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/kwasi-kwarteng_uk_626bf594e4b029505df1bed2?ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main


    This is despicable!!
    Newly elected MP @AnumSNP was prewarned of 'colleagues' to watch out for with respect to their lecherous or 'over friendly' behaviour ..
    As told to @KamaliMelbourne on Sky News.
    https://twitter.com/KamaliMelbourne/status/1520666514164273152 https://twitter.com/LightHackers/status/1520675533192933381/photo/1
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    @Mexicanpete , @Big_G_NorthWales

    Real excitement ! Free trees are on their way !

    It seems 5,000 trees were given out in March (according to a press release from the Welsh Government), and there will be 200,000 more free trees available in Autumn 2022.

    It seems that they will be given out at five regional hubs in Llanrwst, Wrexham, Machynlleth, Swansea and Cwmbran.

    So, a trip to Mach for me in the Autumn, presumably with proof of Welshness to claim my free tree.

    Apparently, it is a native broadleaf tree.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    RobD said:

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    What makes you claim that the Tories control the Electoral Commission?
    Gove has taken control and is driving the elections bill changes that will take the Election Commission partially, at least, out of cross party scrutiny. It is not the Conservatives (that was my interpretation as they are in Government, and look to be in Government for a good number of years) so much as the Party of Government that control changes to party advantage.

    The assumption by the Conservatives is that they cannot, and should not, be allowed to lose General Elections. If they do ever lose, the Party of Jeremy Corbyn could then own the Electoral Commission.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Britain accused of being ‘more evil’ than US and stealing ‘Russian’ invention of fish and chips
    Andrei Isayev, a pro-Kremlin politician, said Britain had ‘never been a real ally to Russia’ during an impassioned tirade on state TV

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/01/britain-accused-evil-us-stealing-russian-invention-fish-chips/

    Slightly weird
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    IshmaelZ said:

    Britain accused of being ‘more evil’ than US and stealing ‘Russian’ invention of fish and chips
    Andrei Isayev, a pro-Kremlin politician, said Britain had ‘never been a real ally to Russia’ during an impassioned tirade on state TV

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/01/britain-accused-evil-us-stealing-russian-invention-fish-chips/

    Slightly weird

    "Slightly"? The whole country is having a massive nervous breakdown.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Moonshine, that assumes the leader of Russia is rational.

    Mr. Z, I believe fish and chips, which are superb, were created here by migrants who were Jewish. So, we're closer to getting them from Zelensky than Putin...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    @Mexicanpete , @Big_G_NorthWales

    Real excitement ! Free trees are on their way !

    It seems 5,000 trees were given out in March (according to a press release from the Welsh Government), and there will be 200,000 more free trees available in Autumn 2022.

    It seems that they will be given out at five regional hubs in Llanrwst, Wrexham, Machynlleth, Swansea and Cwmbran.

    So, a trip to Mach for me in the Autumn, presumably with proof of Welshness to claim my free tree.

    Apparently, it is a native broadleaf tree.

    Have you any idea how cheap small native broadleaf trees are? I don't know where mach or your start point are, but you could probably get 50 delivered for the cost of the fuel.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    @Mexicanpete , @Big_G_NorthWales

    Real excitement ! Free trees are on their way !

    It seems 5,000 trees were given out in March (according to a press release from the Welsh Government), and there will be 200,000 more free trees available in Autumn 2022.

    It seems that they will be given out at five regional hubs in Llanrwst, Wrexham, Machynlleth, Swansea and Cwmbran.

    So, a trip to Mach for me in the Autumn, presumably with proof of Welshness to claim my free tree.

    Apparently, it is a native broadleaf tree.

    Yes though nobody has yet told us to go to Llanrwst for our tree
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    edited May 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    My point is that @bigjohnowls was suggesting that the Labour Party was not standing in huge swathes of the country. When we're actually talking about a few council wards in the South West.

    It's also not like-with-like: in 2018 there was no Somerset,.
    You aren't listening properly. Kier Starmer is a Bad Man. And must be defeated. Only by electing Tories can we look forward the the day when we get a Labour government.
    The dominant mood at the moment seems to be anti-Tory voting. I don't know many people who claim to be wildly enthused by Labour or the LibDems, but I know loads who intend to send a warning shot to the Tories on Thursday, including plenty of traditional Conservatives. That means we should keep two things in mind:

    * A bad night for the Tories doesn't necessarily tell us they'll lose the next election (although a good night in current circs would be impressive for them and certainly lock Johnson into Number 10)
    * Comparing Lab, LibDem and Green results for "best opposition party" won't tell us much. Tactical voting is everywhere.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited May 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    @Mexicanpete , @Big_G_NorthWales

    Real excitement ! Free trees are on their way !

    It seems 5,000 trees were given out in March (according to a press release from the Welsh Government), and there will be 200,000 more free trees available in Autumn 2022.

    It seems that they will be given out at five regional hubs in Llanrwst, Wrexham, Machynlleth, Swansea and Cwmbran.

    So, a trip to Mach for me in the Autumn, presumably with proof of Welshness to claim my free tree.

    Apparently, it is a native broadleaf tree.

    Have you any idea how cheap small native broadleaf trees are? I don't know where mach or your start point are, but you could probably get 50 delivered for the cost of the fuel.
    The old trees on our housing estate are increasingly dying off or too big (1960s planting) or cleared for hard standing for cars. Bad news for the birds, fewer blackbirds around these days.

    We've got some old cherries dying, ourselves, but rowans, birch and hawthorn have selfseeded so we've transplanted and got some replacements coming on well in the way of even free-er trees ... the old trees are being eyed by a local woodworker, and the neighbour will use the branches in his solid fuel stove.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824

    RobD said:

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    What makes you claim that the Tories control the Electoral Commission?
    Gove has taken control and is driving the elections bill changes that will take the Election Commission partially, at least, out of cross party scrutiny. It is not the Conservatives (that was my interpretation as they are in Government, and look to be in Government for a good number of years) so much as the Party of Government that control changes to party advantage.

    The assumption by the Conservatives is that they cannot, and should not, be allowed to lose General Elections. If they do ever lose, the Party of Jeremy Corbyn could then own the Electoral Commission.
    My reading of the Bill is that it will continue to be scrutinised by the Speaker's committee, which appears to be cross-party in its membership. I don't see any reference to that sort of oversight being removed.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IshmaelZ said:

    @Mexicanpete , @Big_G_NorthWales

    Real excitement ! Free trees are on their way !

    It seems 5,000 trees were given out in March (according to a press release from the Welsh Government), and there will be 200,000 more free trees available in Autumn 2022.

    It seems that they will be given out at five regional hubs in Llanrwst, Wrexham, Machynlleth, Swansea and Cwmbran.

    So, a trip to Mach for me in the Autumn, presumably with proof of Welshness to claim my free tree.

    Apparently, it is a native broadleaf tree.

    Have you any idea how cheap small native broadleaf trees are? I don't know where mach or your start point are, but you could probably get 50 delivered for the cost of the fuel.
    It is a tree purchased by Lee Waters, who knows nothing about arboriculture or anything else.

    So, it will be quite costly. And he will be buying ~ 2 million of them, one for ever household in Wales.

    So, very costly.

    (I can get hazel / sycamore / beech /walnut trees to germinate for free already in my garden).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    rcs1000 said:

    ClippP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In 2018 Labour stood in 98% of Council seats.

    In 2022 Labour stands in 61% of seats

    In the South West of England
    And... ummm... how many councils have elections in the South West of England this year?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_Kingdom_local_elections
    Plymouth, Exeter and then Somerset.
    My point is that @bigjohnowls was suggesting that the Labour Party was not standing in huge swathes of the country. When we're actually talking about a few council wards in the South West.

    It's also not like-with-like: in 2018 there was no Somerset,.
    You aren't listening properly. Kier Starmer is a Bad Man. And must be defeated. Only by electing Tories can we look forward the the day when we get a Labour government.
    The dominant mood at the moment seems to be anti-Tory voting. I don't know many people who claim to be wildly enthused by Labour or the LibDems, but I know loads who intend to send a warning shot to the Tories on Thursday, including plenty of traditional Conservatives. That means we should keep two things in mind:

    * A bad night for the Tories doesn't necessarily tell us they'll lose the next election (although a good night in current circs would be impressive for them and certainly lock Johnson into Number 10)
    * Comparing Lab, LibDem and Green results for "best opposition party" won't tell us much. Tactical voting is everywhere.
    Even we have voted independent instead of conservative
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Today’s deranged Mail on Sunday splash on an informal Lab/LD pact and Oliver Dowden’s hysterical letter to Keir Starmer on the back of it could normally be seen as nothing more than ridiculous. However, now that the government controls the Electoral Commission and, therefore, the conduct of elections in this country, it all gets a lot more sinister.

    What makes you claim that the Tories control the Electoral Commission?
    Gove has taken control and is driving the elections bill changes that will take the Election Commission partially, at least, out of cross party scrutiny. It is not the Conservatives (that was my interpretation as they are in Government, and look to be in Government for a good number of years) so much as the Party of Government that control changes to party advantage.

    The assumption by the Conservatives is that they cannot, and should not, be allowed to lose General Elections. If they do ever lose, the Party of Jeremy Corbyn could then own the Electoral Commission.
    My reading of the Bill is that it will continue to be scrutinised by the Speaker's committee, which appears to be cross-party in its membership. I don't see any reference to that sort of oversight being removed.
    The Tories will just ignore the HoL. The HoL is much weaker than HoC. Vide the Borders Bill - they can try three times but that's it.
This discussion has been closed.