The Oryx equipment tally https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html is running at 3.7 Russian to 1 Ukrainian. Even if the Ukrainian hits are better reported we can assume at least 3 to 1. The Ukrainians are also capturing a lot of reusable kit in that number. It would be a reasonable assumption that military manpower losses are 3 to 5 Russians for each Ukrainian. Unfortunately uncounted and large civilian casualties.
Sadly I think you may be being too optimistic there, nether Ukrainians troops or Ukraine civilians have a reason to photograph upload or share photos of there own equipment being destroyed, and Russian troops have had there phones taken off them. Ukrainian losses may be similar to Russians and if not, that would be become the Ukrainians have less equipment to start with.
As for Solders killed, Sadly, I think it most likely that the Ukrainians have lost a lot more than the Russians,
Oryx is the gold standard, requiring digital evidence. Since more far more Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are recorded as being destroyed and damaged it follows that more Russian troups have been killed or injured.
Attackers almost always suffer greater losses of personnel than defenders, suggesting that the Ukrainians will have done better to date, but that is likely to change if the they now go on the offensive.
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
The Oryx equipment tally https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html is running at 3.7 Russian to 1 Ukrainian. Even if the Ukrainian hits are better reported we can assume at least 3 to 1. The Ukrainians are also capturing a lot of reusable kit in that number. It would be a reasonable assumption that military manpower losses are 3 to 5 Russians for each Ukrainian. Unfortunately uncounted and large civilian casualties.
Sadly I think you may be being too optimistic there, nether Ukrainians troops or Ukraine civilians have a reason to photograph upload or share photos of there own equipment being destroyed, and Russian troops have had there phones taken off them. Ukrainian losses may be similar to Russians and if not, that would be become the Ukrainians have less equipment to start with.
As for Solders killed, Sadly, I think it most likely that the Ukrainians have lost a lot more than the Russians,
Oryx is the gold standard, requiring digital evidence. Since more far more Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are recorded as being destroyed and damaged it follows that more Russian troups have been killed or injured.
Attackers almost always suffer greater losses of personnel than defenders, suggesting that the Ukrainians will have done better to date, but that is likely to change if the they now go on the offensive.
Except that the Russians are preparing for a major renewal of their offensive in the east.
Reportedly some of the 36th Brigade have not surrendered in Mariupol.
Mariupol: Presidential Office confirms 36th Brigade Marines have broken through cordon https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/13/7339257/ Oleksii Arestovych, adviser to the head of the Presidential Office, has confirmed that units of the 36th Independent Brigade of Marines named after Admiral Belinsky have broken through to join the Azov regiment. Source: Arestovych on Facebook, Novynarnia Details: One of the officers of the 36th Brigade first reported about the results of the special operation to get through the Russian cordon and join with the "Azov" regiment. According to him, despite considerable difficulty, the special operation was carried out successfully. An adviser to the head of the Ukrainian Presidential Office confirmed on 13 April that units of the 36th Marine Brigade in Mariupol had made a difficult and very risky manoeuvre to link up with the Azov regiment, which had professionally secured the breakthrough. No data on possible losses were given by Arestovych. According to Arestovych: "Azov has received substantial reinforcements. The 36th Brigade has avoided being defeated by troop detachments and gained additional major opportunities, in fact getting a second chance. The defenders of the city have now jointly reinforced their defence area substantially. Overall, the city's (Mariupol's) defence system has grown and strengthened." Details: At the same time, according to Novynarnia, some Marines have been captured, and there are those whose fate remains unclear...
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
Do you think you are being honest by hoping not to win
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Ancient history. And as the person who single-handedly drove that through is now Executive Vice President of Boooo Facebook its easy for the party to move on. And with the Dishonourable Company of Liars putting today's student loans up to stupid% suspect students have moved on as well.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I see you are feeling trollish today. Is it turps o’clock already in the UK?
Imagine comparing Boris’s pathological lying to another party’s (stupid) breaking of a pre-election promise.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Yes. The Prime Minister breaks a law, is apologetic, doesn't do it again. Its bad, it should be a resignation offence but its a fixed point.
The Prime Minister thinking he can lie and lie to parliament - and parliament not sanctioning him for not resigning? Opens the door to authoritarianism.
Think about it. We are sliding down a rabbit hole where lies become truth. Where saying things that are blatantly untrue is accepted and is parroted by a client media.
That is how dictatorships work. And sure, we have a vote. But if lies become truth how can we tell what is real? Our entire democratic system becomes baseless.
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
You won't get elected.
Troup ward will probably vote something like:
Con 48% (+3) SNP 37% (+5) LD 10% (+5) Grn 5% N/A 2 Con 1 SNP
The Oryx equipment tally https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html is running at 3.7 Russian to 1 Ukrainian. Even if the Ukrainian hits are better reported we can assume at least 3 to 1. The Ukrainians are also capturing a lot of reusable kit in that number. It would be a reasonable assumption that military manpower losses are 3 to 5 Russians for each Ukrainian. Unfortunately uncounted and large civilian casualties.
Sadly I think you may be being too optimistic there, nether Ukrainians troops or Ukraine civilians have a reason to photograph upload or share photos of there own equipment being destroyed, and Russian troops have had there phones taken off them. Ukrainian losses may be similar to Russians and if not, that would be become the Ukrainians have less equipment to start with.
As for Solders killed, Sadly, I think it most likely that the Ukrainians have lost a lot more than the Russians,
Oryx is the gold standard, requiring digital evidence. Since more far more Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are recorded as being destroyed and damaged it follows that more Russian troups have been killed or injured.
Attackers almost always suffer greater losses of personnel than defenders, suggesting that the Ukrainians will have done better to date, but that is likely to change if the they now go on the offensive.
It is not always the case though. The liberation of the Falklands is an example where the army on the offensive lost fewer than the defenders.
Even on the offensive, the Ukrainians are likely to have superior organization, training, motivation, intelligence, strategy, tactics and, in some key areas, equipment than the Russians' second division troops. I do not think it is a given that they will have a higher casualty rate, although they might well have.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Eh? What a deranged idea. Have you heard of a thing called PR?
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
The Libdems have apologised many times individually for having to renege on an election promise when they went into coalition. Coalition government all over the world is full of parties negotiating policies to go into partnership in government. What's more reprehensible is when a single party go into government on their own, and then make the decision to break their promises purely by their own volition.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.) Edit: in the 2010 manifesto in particular.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Eh? What a deranged idea. Have you heard of a thing called PR?
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Ancient history. And as the person who single-handedly drove that through is now Executive Vice President of Boooo Facebook its easy for the party to move on. And with the Dishonourable Company of Liars putting today's student loans up to stupid% suspect students have moved on as well.
Seems your answer to lib dems betrayal is 'move on '
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.)
Do you think in any coalition both (or all) parties' policies are all going to be followed through?
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.)
i think most libdems believe that, the game for a 3rd party is elect as many mps to have more influence.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
The list includes Patel from memory, and perhaps one other. There’s so much corruption it’s hard to keep track.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.)
Do you think in any coalition both (or all) parties' policies are all going to be followed through?
Course not. I said as much in the post to which Applicant was replying. It's up to Applicant to show that the LDs actually explicitly made the resewrvation "if we are in coalition".
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
You won't get elected.
Troup ward will probably vote something like:
Con 48% (+3) SNP 37% (+5) LD 10% (+5) Grn 5% N/A 2 Con 1 SNP
Unless people react badly to the Tories. Running for election under their banner in the middle of this is not easy...
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.) Edit: in the 2010 manifesto in particular.
Well, if that isn't the case then LD manifestos are even more worthless than manifestos in general have been since Stuart Wheeler lost his case in 2008.
In a smaller, adjacent, shrub-hemmed field, Corporal Nick Palmer was supervising, mostly, as the Russian prisoner covered the British bodies with rocks gathered at the remains of the stone fence surrounding the Russian army post that had been dismantled by an LGB days before.
Nick and the prisoner had potato-sack hauled the nine bodies here - the ambushed SAS patrol and poor old Foxy the medic - and it was a hard, grisly, thankless task.
Nick had seen it that Foxy was taken care of first, and now all but two of the Special Forces personnel had been covered with the stones, the Russian's breath heaving with toil and fear, his boyish face blood-streaked, his hands stained red. The corporal was marking each temporary, aboveground grave with a machine gun, alerting the burial squads to these British bodies. Now and then the Russian's eyes would meet Nick's cold gaze, and the prisoner would work harder, even more industriously covering up the carnage he'd help create.
Finally Nick told the prisoner to take a break, and they both sat on the ground. Nick lighted up a cigarette, but being a non-smoker immediately offered it to the Russian, who had been watching hungrily.
'British cigarette,' the Russian said, puffing, grinning crazily, desperately. 'I like British... er... Grommit... er... Wrong trousers! Close Shave!'
Nick nodded, smiling, 'Yeah, that's right. Wallace and Grommit. A Grand Day out, The Wrong Trousers, and then A Close Shave.'
'Yah! Wallace and Grommit!'
They were still sitting when Captain Smithson came tromping into the field, followed by Sergeant TSE, and the rest of the squad, what was left of it anyway: SeanT, Malmesbury, and the lone American attached to the squad, SeaShantyIrish.
'Get him off his Russian arse,' SeanT snarled.
Nick rose, and the Russian mimicked him, pitching his cigarette. Smithson went from grave to grave, removing ammo from the machine guns Nick had set there, deactivating the weapons. TSE followed, as if he were tidying up after the captain, gathering the extra ammo. Machine guns in hand, Malmesbury and SeanT and SeaShantyIrish moved slowly, ominously towards the prisoner, forming a loose semi-circle around him. The Russian took anxious notice of this, and went back to stacking rocks atop the body, as if getting the corpses covered would make his problem go away.
He muttered something in Russian, nodding to the rock-pile graves, still working feverishly, proving his worth, his obedience. He repeated the muttering.
'He says he's not finished yet,' Nick said.
'That's what he thinks,' SeanT said. 'You're finished, alright, Russky!'
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
*blinks in surprise*
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.)
i think most libdems believe that, the game for a 3rd party is elect as many mps to have more influence.
Yep, c&s or just weighing in where they can on votes. Doesn't a priori imply a coalition or semiformal alliance a la DUP + Tories.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR? As it happens I think Clegg was foolish to concede on this given the profile in the campaign. He should have said "we will oppose, but you can use government time to come to an accommodation with the Labour Party". Nobody now remembers that the Labour Party manifesto also included a pledge to increase tuition fees and that it was supported by 70% of the electorate. IIRC correctly that's partly why Clegg conceded when confronted with this stat with the negotiations - there was a clear mandate from the electorate for it to be implemented, although you can argue about the level. Labour were equally hypocritical to oppose it.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Ancient history. And as the person who single-handedly drove that through is now Executive Vice President of Boooo Facebook its easy for the party to move on. And with the Dishonourable Company of Liars putting today's student loans up to stupid% suspect students have moved on as well.
Seems your answer to lib dems betrayal is 'move on '
Realpolitik at all times. Now that Cleggasm has become the Facebook bogey man its much easier to pin the mess on him. Which is also very accurate as it was him that drove it through to the fury of many MPs.
And its not for me or thee to tell students what to be angry about. My eldest is in 1st year. They are concerned about university funding now and loan conditions now. They aren't going to hold their nose and vote Tory because of a LD fail 12 years ago or Labour's two stage introduction of fees 20 years ago.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR?
Because there was a referendum held, and the people gave an emphatic answer...
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
It's a fair point. They did apologise, but that didn't help much. The voters have already punished the Lib Dems - they dropped 65% of their total number of votes from the previous election to the one after the promise was broken - from 6.8 million votes to 2.4 million (and further still in the election subsequent).
A similar proportional drop in number of votes would see the Tories under 5 million. Seems fair and appropriate (and, of course, one would expect an apology first, as with the Lib Dems).
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
And that great office of state holders have zero responsibility to their office and the rules which govern them. "Its for MPs and the electorate", no, its for the people breaking the ministerial code to have honour and decency and not commit malfeasance in public office
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
More importantly, the ultimate day-to-day arbiter of the code of ethics is the Prime Minister himself. Who guards the guards and all that?
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
Noble Rot
Thanks - Streetview shows it has a step - I am sure they'l have a ramp but f*ck-it, I get fed up with asking.
Appreciate I didn't specify level access so apols, I am not meaning to diss your suggestion.
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
Do you think you are being honest by hoping not to win
Every horse which runs in a race shall be run on its merits, it says here. Stewards inquiry incoming
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Ancient history. And as the person who single-handedly drove that through is now Executive Vice President of Boooo Facebook its easy for the party to move on. And with the Dishonourable Company of Liars putting today's student loans up to stupid% suspect students have moved on as well.
Seems your answer to lib dems betrayal is 'move on '
Realpolitik at all times. Now that Cleggasm has become the Facebook bogey man its much easier to pin the mess on him. Which is also very accurate as it was him that drove it through to the fury of many MPs.
And its not for me or thee to tell students what to be angry about. My eldest is in 1st year. They are concerned about university funding now and loan conditions now. They aren't going to hold their nose and vote Tory because of a LD fail 12 years ago or Labour's two stage introduction of fees 20 years ago.
+1 - 12% interest rates are going to be pinned on the current Tory party and it's another easy attack line that Labour can (and hopefully will) use.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
More importantly, the ultimate day-to-day arbiter of the code of ethics is the Prime Minister himself. Who guards the guards and all that?
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
The other problem is that ministers lying to parliament is pretty much expected by most of the public. He lied? Of course he did, he's a politician.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR?
Because there was a referendum held, and the people gave an emphatic answer...
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR?
Because there was a referendum held, and the people gave an emphatic answer...
the referendum was on AV, not a form of PR
A distinction without a difference to most people.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Ancient history. And as the person who single-handedly drove that through is now Executive Vice President of Boooo Facebook its easy for the party to move on. And with the Dishonourable Company of Liars putting today's student loans up to stupid% suspect students have moved on as well.
Seems your answer to lib dems betrayal is 'move on '
Realpolitik at all times. Now that Cleggasm has become the Facebook bogey man its much easier to pin the mess on him. Which is also very accurate as it was him that drove it through to the fury of many MPs.
And its not for me or thee to tell students what to be angry about. My eldest is in 1st year. They are concerned about university funding now and loan conditions now. They aren't going to hold their nose and vote Tory because of a LD fail 12 years ago or Labour's two stage introduction of fees 20 years ago.
+1 - 12% interest rates are going to be pinned on the current Tory party and it's another easy attack line that Labour can (and hopefully will) use.
Very much so, because it's all about keeping the oiks out and the universities for the wealthy and the Tories' children. Or it might as well be for all one can tell, because it is so flaming insane [edit] by any other rational basis. By their fruits shall ye know them.
HMG woiuld be much better to reduce the interest rates to zero and simply use the money to pay down the capital. At least that would avoid a major crash in c. 20 years time. Where are those dodgy loans going to be? How many banks will have taken them on?
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
Noble Rot
Thanks - Streetview shows it has a step - I am sure they'l have a ramp but f*ck-it, I get fed up with asking.
Appreciate I didn't specify level access so apols, I am not meaning to diss your suggestion.
Sorry! I did not realise. They’re good, but the back of the restaurant is a bit of a warren from memory. I still think it might be worth a call to see what they can do.
Politico.com - As Ukraine war intensifies, questions from first Trump impeachment linger The former president's withholding of aid from Ukraine feels like a distant political chapter — but it’s taken on a new meaning as military assistance proves pivotal in today’s war with Russia.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
More importantly, the ultimate day-to-day arbiter of the code of ethics is the Prime Minister himself. Who guards the guards and all that?
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
The other problem is that ministers lying to parliament is pretty much expected by most of the public. He lied? Of course he did, he's a politician.
Surely the last sentence should read "He lied?, of course he did, he's a Tory politician."
Boris is safe because there is no one to replace him. If there was a candidate waiting in the wings he would be gone. There isn't.
So he's the best because everyone else is crap in the tory party?
Almost anyone would be better, but it's not obvious that there is one person who would be significantly better who wants the job, which makes removing him more difficult, And Boris has done a good job of finding people of no great ability to serve in his cabinet and is very good at putting the knife in when needed to preserve his position. I find it hard to believe that there aren't more MPs of a higher calibre waiting patiently in the wings somewhere, but can't to think of many. Even under John Major there were competent senior ministers, and the government was a shambles. It worries me when Michael Gove appears to be one of the best performing.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
More importantly, the ultimate day-to-day arbiter of the code of ethics is the Prime Minister himself. Who guards the guards and all that?
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
The other problem is that ministers lying to parliament is pretty much expected by most of the public. He lied? Of course he did, he's a politician.
I don’t think polling really backs this up. What a dark world you inhabit.
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
Noble Rot
Thanks - Streetview shows it has a step - I am sure they'l have a ramp but f*ck-it, I get fed up with asking.
Appreciate I didn't specify level access so apols, I am not meaning to diss your suggestion.
Sorry! I did not realise. They’re good, but the back of the restaurant is a bit of a warren from memory. I still think it might be worth a call to see what they can do.
Don't apologise - no reason why you should have realised!
Quick question - anyone care to recommend a good restaurant near the British Museum for an early Saturday evening dinner? Was going to book The Ivy but of course, no availability as I'm not an a-list celeb!
It's worth ringing the Ivy. There are obvously a lot of good places a little further into Covent Garden. Hakkasan is pretty close to the British Museum, and it is pretty good (not what it was when it opened though)
If you don't need a big name and just want good food then there are a few other options. For example I think the 'Jones Family Kitchen' (steak place, and it's far, far better than it sounds) has opened a branch nearby.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
Then it is his mps responsibility or the electorate in 2024
No. We have a Ministerial Code of Conduct because public office holders MUST behave with propriety. It is the office holder's responsibility to act appropriately. Malfeasance in Public Office is a serious issue.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
More importantly, the ultimate day-to-day arbiter of the code of ethics is the Prime Minister himself. Who guards the guards and all that?
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
The other problem is that ministers lying to parliament is pretty much expected by most of the public. He lied? Of course he did, he's a politician.
Surely the last sentence should read "He lied?, of course he did, he's a Tory politician."
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
Do you think you are being honest by hoping not to win
Most paper candidates hope not to win. They are giving the electors an opportunity to vote for that party. It also helps to keep the other parties honest in not neglecting a ward that is otherwise uncontested. It is difficult for all parties to put up a full slate of people who want to win. Paper candidates is very common.
SeanT grabbed the prisoner by his camouflage shirt, and SeaShantyIrish joined in. They dragged him from the stony grave, the latest rock slipping from his fingers, his face contorted with fear as he cried out in Russian. And the Russian pulled away from his captors, scooping up the rock he dropped, and hastily returned to covering up the corpses.
The sound of Malmesbury racking his machine gun off safety froze the prisoner, and he carefully got to his feet and turned to face them.
'Please,' he said in English, pleadingly. 'I like Britain.' His accent was thick, almost stereotypically Slavic, his teeth bared in a miserable, desperate excuse for a smile. 'How do you do? Nice to meet you! Do you have the time?'
SeaShantyIrish racked his machine gun off safety. The Russian began to laugh, softly, hysterically. Tears were welling as he said, 'Princess Kate! What a dish! Lily James? Nice gams!' And the prisoner lifted his slacks to the knees, laughing.
SeanT racked his machine gun off safety. The Russian stood straight now, his legs still exposed. He sang, 'God save our gracious Queen...' That was all he knew; he kept singing it again and again. 'God save our gracious Queen...God save our gracious Queen....'
The three privates were standing in firing-squad fashion now, facing the prisoner. Sickened, Nick looked away. Smithson was still dismantling machine guns, TSE gathering ammo, as if completely unaware, or anyway unconcerned, about what was happening. The young prisoner finally played his trump card.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR?
Because there was a referendum held, and the people gave an emphatic answer...
the referendum was on AV, not a form of PR
A distinction without a difference to most people.
the ill-informed perhaps, but i wouldnt say the most.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
The LDs have been in power for one government in my lifetime. A government which they shared with the Tories. The idea they “have form” on misleading the public is laughable.
On topic, I think the cumulative load of FPNs is what will finish off PM Johnson.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
I think it will actually be the Sue Grey report. All the Met are doing is issuing x FPNs, and its coming out which events they were for. Surely the Grey report will have the fuller details?
Looks to me as though Boris can survive anything at the moment.
By any normal calculus he should have been done for some time ago. It's hard to think that some further additional increment will be enough to finish him off, when all the previous ones have not.
Boris Johnson is a test that the British constitution has failed.
Its a political issue not a constitutional one. Under Blair and Brown Ministers were repeatedly fined for breaking the law (including laws they passed) and continued in their jobs without getting sacked.
That was bad then and its bad now, but there's nothing new or constitutional involved it is bad politically and its up to the voters to act.
Isn't lying to parliament a constitutional matter. By convention that requires a resignation doesn't it?
Ministers have apologised before for "inadvertently misleading Parliament" and carried on.
All the fines demonstrate is that the law was broken, not that Parliament was lied to.
I am not sure "I have been fined for something I told you didn't happen" is quite the defence you think it is.
"I have been fined for something I thought was OK but I made a mistake" is the defence that he gave already.
To prove a lie you'd need to prove that the Prime Minister thought that having a slice of cake while at work was a "party" at the time he said it. Quite frankly I actually believe someone as hedonistic as Boris is would not remotely have considered that to be a party so wasn't lying at the time.
Forget the birthday party. Remember this is the end of the easy fines. Now we have the more complex ones. And we know for a fact - because people have seen it - there is a photo of the Big Liar waving a can of Estrella at the camera. Similarly the kareoke party in the flat to name just two of the parties he attended.
"There were no parties". It couldn't be clearer. A deliberate lie to mislead the House of Parliament.
Either he resigns or our entire system of government corrupts.
Ultimately it is for the voters to decide but Boris is not the first or last to be caught telling untruths
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
I have no sympathy with what happened to students. BUT a PBer (I forget whom, alas) recently made the point that it wasn't the LDs who broke their promise, but the coalition - which did not collectively make that promise. It's a not entirely legalistic position. But probably people in the UK outside Scotland and Wales (and to some extent NI) are so used to FPTP and the winner takes all that they are not familiar with the realities of coalition politics and minority governments.
That doesn't wash - the LDs aren't realistically going to form a majority government therefore their manifesto is policies to be enacted in coalition.
Indeed, and that is why you can't expect them to be able to enact every item in their manifesto. Why are they equally not ridiculed for breaking the 'promise' on PR?
Because there was a referendum held, and the people gave an emphatic answer...
the referendum was on AV, not a form of PR
A distinction without a difference to most people.
the ill-informed perhaps, but i wouldnt say the most.
Don't you realise how little attention most people pay to politics?
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
Do you think you are being honest by hoping not to win
Most paper candidates hope not to win. They are giving the electors an opportunity to vote for that party. It also helps to keep the other parties honest in not neglecting a ward that is otherwise uncontested. It is difficult for all parties to put up a full slate of people who want to win. Paper candidates is very common.
I would suggest for minor candidates that is fair comment but for the lib dems ?
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
The LDs have been in power for one government in my lifetime. A government which they shared with the Tories. The idea they “have form” on misleading the public is laughable.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
The LDs have been in power for one government in my lifetime. A government which they shared with the Tories. The idea they “have form” on misleading the public is laughable.
Is my last sentence wrong ?
About the difference between national and local policies?
I tend to think this is just sour grapes by defeated Tory (and Labour) councillors who have an inflated sense of entitlement.
The idea that the LDs - who are mostly locked out of national politics by the electoral system - are not going to campaign on local issues is for the birds, frankly.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
The LDs have been in power for one government in my lifetime. A government which they shared with the Tories. The idea they “have form” on misleading the public is laughable.
Is my last sentence wrong ?
About the difference between national and local policies?
I tend to think this is just sour grapes by defeated Tory (and Labour) councillors who have an inflated sense of entitlement.
The idea that the LDs - who are mostly locked out of national politics by the electoral system - are not going to campaign on local issues is for the birds, frankly.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
That's rubbish as well. There is a world of difference between concentrating on certain aspects pertinent to one local area, which are different to other areas. That's how you garner support locally. I would love to see any sources to show this contradiction, hynfytyn!
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
We're a Federal Party. Entirely possible to stand on one position at national level and another in nations / areas. We aren't either a dictatorship like Labour vs Scottish Labour, or fawning lickspittles like SCon and DRoss.
Did I read that the Sue Gray report is out next week? Presumably any additional FPNs would also happen v soon.
I think he will continue to hang on. The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Much as I hope for egregious damage to the Dishonourable Company of Liars, I hope that doesn't go too far. Imagine if my paper candidacy in a no-hoper ward gets me elected...
Do you think you are being honest by hoping not to win
Most paper candidates hope not to win. They are giving the electors an opportunity to vote for that party. It also helps to keep the other parties honest in not neglecting a ward that is otherwise uncontested. It is difficult for all parties to put up a full slate of people who want to win. Paper candidates is very common.
I would suggest for minor candidates that is fair comment but for the lib dems ?
I know you have been involved in campaigning but I assume not at candidate selection. All parties do it including the Tories and Labour and I don't mean a few. Both the main parties will have hundreds of paper candidates at the May elections who are deliberately selected for the two reasons I gave and have no desire to win (but should be warned it is a possibility). Filling up your no hope wards with candidates can be really difficult for all parties.
'Fuck Putin!' he glanced first at Nick, then at the privates. 'Fuck Putin!'
'Fuck you!' Malmesbury said. The prisoner lurched for Nick, grabbing his arm, and spewed a terrified stream of Russian at the corporal.
Nick called to Smithson, 'Sir, he says he's sorry about Foxy. I don't think he was the gunner, sir!'
'Tell him 'sorry' don't cut the mustard,' SeaShantyIrish said, the big machine gun loose and deadly in the American's hands. 'Tell him my piles bleed for him.'
'Tell him...,' Smithson finally said, 'the war's over for him.' The squad members were nodding, SeanT saying, 'Fuckin' 'ell,' and Smithson was dropping the last of the disarmed machine guns down and striding over to the Russian. A handkerchief came from one of the captain's pockets and he swiftly tied it around the Russian's head, in blindfold fashion.
'Sir,' Nick said softly but urgently, 'this isn't right.'
Smithson knew that Nick had very pro-Russian sympathies before the Tory government introduced the draft in preparation for this land war, but the captain replied without umbrage.
'Just tell him, corporal. Tell him what I just said.'
Nodding, Nick then whispered to the Russian. Smithson spun the prisoner around, so that his back was towards the squad. Resigned to whatever Smithson's order might be, TSE reluctantly fell in line with the others and racked his weapon off safety. The prisoner jumped. Smithson looked at his squad - SeanT's eyes were glittering, SeaShantyIrish's were hooded with a hunter's nonchalance, Malmesbury's were as dead as the stones covering the corpses.
Then Smithson said to Nick, 'Tell him to march two hundred paces and wait until he can't hear us anymore. Then he's to surrender himself to the first NATO patrol he runs into.'
'What?' Malmesbury said, shaking his head as if his ears were lying to him. 'Wait a goddam minute - '
'Yes, sir,' Nick said, relieved, but careful not to smile.
And to the young Russian he repeated Smithson's order in Russian. Then the captain checked the blindfold, snugging the knot tight, then patted the Russian twice on the shoulder, signalling him to take off, which he did.
'Close shave,' the Russian smiled, and said something like farewell in the vernacular. Nick allowed himself a smile.
The former prisoner's erstwhile captors watched him disappear into the distance, singing what sounded like, 'It's coming home, it's coming home!' until he was too far away for them to hear anything.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
The LDs have been in power for one government in my lifetime. A government which they shared with the Tories. The idea they “have form” on misleading the public is laughable.
Is my last sentence wrong ?
About the difference between national and local policies?
I tend to think this is just sour grapes by defeated Tory (and Labour) councillors who have an inflated sense of entitlement.
The idea that the LDs - who are mostly locked out of national politics by the electoral system - are not going to campaign on local issues is for the birds, frankly.
He lied, and lied, and lied. That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
That's more important to you than breaking a draconian law that he himself introduced?
Of course.
Then don't be surprised when, by focusing on the wrong thing, he gets let off the hook.
Nothing surprises me about the vigour of PB Tory appeasement. Look at Big G upthread.
Pardon
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
You may be expecting that, but you continue to support him via a kind of soft-shoe whataboutery.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
I have not suggested Boris should be excused but the lib dems have form on misleading the public
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
That's rubbish as well. There is a world of difference between concentrating on certain aspects pertinent to one local area, which are different to other areas. That's how you garner support locally. I would love to see any sources to show this contradiction, hynfytyn!
Comments
That’s why he must go, as soon as possible.
The Tories are damaging the constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascelles_Principles
I think he will continue to hang on.
The council election results will be a period of danger, but so far there’s no hint of a landslide against the Tory Party itself, except possibly in Scotland.
As this is Boris, and we know he is an inept crook, we may just have to wait for the next scandal. I’m attracted to the theory that 2023 works best for the Tory Party.
Mariupol: Presidential Office confirms 36th Brigade Marines have broken through cordon
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/13/7339257/
Oleksii Arestovych, adviser to the head of the Presidential Office, has confirmed that units of the 36th Independent Brigade of Marines named after Admiral Belinsky have broken through to join the Azov regiment.
Source: Arestovych on Facebook, Novynarnia
Details: One of the officers of the 36th Brigade first reported about the results of the special operation to get through the Russian cordon and join with the "Azov" regiment. According to him, despite considerable difficulty, the special operation was carried out successfully.
An adviser to the head of the Ukrainian Presidential Office confirmed on 13 April that units of the 36th Marine Brigade in Mariupol had made a difficult and very risky manoeuvre to link up with the Azov regiment, which had professionally secured the breakthrough. No data on possible losses were given by Arestovych.
According to Arestovych: "Azov has received substantial reinforcements. The 36th Brigade has avoided being defeated by troop detachments and gained additional major opportunities, in fact getting a second chance. The defenders of the city have now jointly reinforced their defence area substantially. Overall, the city's (Mariupol's) defence system has grown and strengthened."
Details: At the same time, according to Novynarnia, some Marines have been captured, and there are those whose fate remains unclear...
Maybe the lib dems can apologise over breaking their promise so blatantly to university students
Is it turps o’clock already in the UK?
Imagine comparing Boris’s pathological lying to another party’s (stupid) breaking of a pre-election promise.
The Prime Minister thinking he can lie and lie to parliament - and parliament not sanctioning him for not resigning? Opens the door to authoritarianism.
Think about it. We are sliding down a rabbit hole where lies become truth. Where saying things that are blatantly untrue is accepted and is parroted by a client media.
That is how dictatorships work. And sure, we have a vote. But if lies become truth how can we tell what is real? Our entire democratic system becomes baseless.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/catalonia-pays-3-to-firms-linked-to-shakespeare-was-catalan-theory
Troup ward will probably vote something like:
Con 48% (+3)
SNP 37% (+5)
LD 10% (+5)
Grn 5% N/A 2 Con 1 SNP
Even on the offensive, the Ukrainians are likely to have superior organization, training, motivation, intelligence, strategy, tactics and, in some key areas, equipment than the Russians' second division troops. I do not think it is a given that they will have a higher casualty rate, although they might well have.
What a deranged idea.
Have you heard of a thing called PR?
It's an interestiing view, but did the LDs actually say that? (I ask out of ignorance.) Edit: in the 2010 manifesto in particular.
This is the problem. The PM and the Chancellor must resign according to a code of ethics adhered to by every previous great officer of state for centuries. But they won't because they are amoral cowards. As are the Tory MPs going along with this.
Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
·
5h
Wakefield is an opportunity to bring more personalities into Labour and the party should think creatively.
Step forward @edballs
. Since losing his seat, Balls has reinvented himself as a celebrity TV star and now the UK’s second most popular politician.
(Part 1)
In a smaller, adjacent, shrub-hemmed field, Corporal Nick Palmer was supervising, mostly, as the Russian prisoner covered the British bodies with rocks gathered at the remains of the stone fence surrounding the Russian army post that had been dismantled by an LGB days before.
Nick and the prisoner had potato-sack hauled the nine bodies here - the ambushed SAS patrol and poor old Foxy the medic - and it was a hard, grisly, thankless task.
Nick had seen it that Foxy was taken care of first, and now all but two of the Special Forces personnel had been covered with the stones, the Russian's breath heaving with toil and fear, his boyish face blood-streaked, his hands stained red. The corporal was marking each temporary, aboveground grave with a machine gun, alerting the burial squads to these British bodies. Now and then the Russian's eyes would meet Nick's cold gaze, and the prisoner would work harder, even more industriously covering up the carnage he'd help create.
Finally Nick told the prisoner to take a break, and they both sat on the ground. Nick lighted up a cigarette, but being a non-smoker immediately offered it to the Russian, who had been watching hungrily.
'British cigarette,' the Russian said, puffing, grinning crazily, desperately. 'I like British... er... Grommit... er... Wrong trousers! Close Shave!'
Nick nodded, smiling, 'Yeah, that's right. Wallace and Grommit. A Grand Day out, The Wrong Trousers, and then A Close Shave.'
'Yah! Wallace and Grommit!'
They were still sitting when Captain Smithson came tromping into the field, followed by Sergeant TSE, and the rest of the squad, what was left of it anyway: SeanT, Malmesbury, and the lone American attached to the squad, SeaShantyIrish.
'Get him off his Russian arse,' SeanT snarled.
Nick rose, and the Russian mimicked him, pitching his cigarette. Smithson went from grave to grave, removing ammo from the machine guns Nick had set there, deactivating the weapons. TSE followed, as if he were tidying up after the captain, gathering the extra ammo. Machine guns in hand, Malmesbury and SeanT and SeaShantyIrish moved slowly, ominously towards the prisoner, forming a loose semi-circle around him. The Russian took anxious notice of this, and went back to stacking rocks atop the body, as if getting the corpses covered would make his problem go away.
He muttered something in Russian, nodding to the rock-pile graves, still working feverishly, proving his worth, his obedience. He repeated the muttering.
'He says he's not finished yet,' Nick said.
'That's what he thinks,' SeanT said. 'You're finished, alright, Russky!'
(part 2 to follow)
I have posted several times I expect Boris gone by summer
But old news now.
Your latest idea that we should excuse Boris because the Lib Dems didn’t deliver on a manifesto promise in 2010 is a “keeper”.
And its not for me or thee to tell students what to be angry about. My eldest is in 1st year. They are concerned about university funding now and loan conditions now. They aren't going to hold their nose and vote Tory because of a LD fail 12 years ago or Labour's two stage introduction of fees 20 years ago.
The voters have already punished the Lib Dems - they dropped 65% of their total number of votes from the previous election to the one after the promise was broken - from 6.8 million votes to 2.4 million (and further still in the election subsequent).
A similar proportional drop in number of votes would see the Tories under 5 million. Seems fair and appropriate (and, of course, one would expect an apology first, as with the Lib Dems).
In theory, any minister knowingly telling Parliament an untruth is a serious matter- literally a sacking offence. Much more substantial than a fifty quid FPN.
The practical flaw is that, for some inexplicable reason, the PM doesn't want to enforce that in this case.
This is a newish problem, and not one the Ministerial Code or the constitution has an answer to.
Appreciate I didn't specify level access so apols, I am not meaning to diss your suggestion.
I fully expect Starmer to get Balls in the Lords as soon as he can.
Is HM the Q doing a big Platinum Anniversary list?
HMG woiuld be much better to reduce the interest rates to zero and simply use the money to pay down the capital. At least that would avoid a major crash in c. 20 years time. Where are those dodgy loans going to be? How many banks will have taken them on?
They’re good, but the back of the restaurant is a bit of a warren from memory.
I still think it might be worth a call to see what they can do.
The former president's withholding of aid from Ukraine feels like a distant political chapter — but it’s taken on a new meaning as military assistance proves pivotal in today’s war with Russia.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/13/ukraine-war-first-trump-impeachment-00024816
What a dark world you inhabit.
If you don't need a big name and just want good food then there are a few other options. For example I think the 'Jones Family Kitchen' (steak place, and it's far, far better than it sounds) has opened a branch nearby.
Indeed they stand on one national policy but then the opposite in local elections
(Part 2)
SeanT grabbed the prisoner by his camouflage shirt, and SeaShantyIrish joined in. They dragged him from the stony grave, the latest rock slipping from his fingers, his face contorted with fear as he cried out in Russian. And the Russian pulled away from his captors, scooping up the rock he dropped, and hastily returned to covering up the corpses.
The sound of Malmesbury racking his machine gun off safety froze the prisoner, and he carefully got to his feet and turned to face them.
'Please,' he said in English, pleadingly. 'I like Britain.' His accent was thick, almost stereotypically Slavic, his teeth bared in a miserable, desperate excuse for a smile. 'How do you do? Nice to meet you! Do you have the time?'
SeaShantyIrish racked his machine gun off safety. The Russian began to laugh, softly, hysterically. Tears were welling as he said, 'Princess Kate! What a dish! Lily James? Nice gams!' And the prisoner lifted his slacks to the knees, laughing.
SeanT racked his machine gun off safety. The Russian stood straight now, his legs still exposed. He sang, 'God save our gracious Queen...' That was all he knew; he kept singing it again and again. 'God save our gracious Queen...God save our gracious Queen....'
The three privates were standing in firing-squad fashion now, facing the prisoner. Sickened, Nick looked away. Smithson was still dismantling machine guns, TSE gathering ammo, as if completely unaware, or anyway unconcerned, about what was happening. The young prisoner finally played his trump card.
(Part 3 to follow)
I tend to think this is just sour grapes by defeated Tory (and Labour) councillors who have an inflated sense of entitlement.
The idea that the LDs - who are mostly locked out of national politics by the electoral system - are not going to campaign on local issues is for the birds, frankly.
(Part 3)
The young prisoner finally played his trump card:
'Fuck Putin!' he glanced first at Nick, then at the privates. 'Fuck Putin!'
'Fuck you!' Malmesbury said. The prisoner lurched for Nick, grabbing his arm, and spewed a terrified stream of Russian at the corporal.
Nick called to Smithson, 'Sir, he says he's sorry about Foxy. I don't think he was the gunner, sir!'
'Tell him 'sorry' don't cut the mustard,' SeaShantyIrish said, the big machine gun loose and deadly in the American's hands. 'Tell him my piles bleed for him.'
'Tell him...,' Smithson finally said, 'the war's over for him.' The squad members were nodding, SeanT saying, 'Fuckin' 'ell,' and Smithson was dropping the last of the disarmed machine guns down and striding over to the Russian. A handkerchief came from one of the captain's pockets and he swiftly tied it around the Russian's head, in blindfold fashion.
'Sir,' Nick said softly but urgently, 'this isn't right.'
Smithson knew that Nick had very pro-Russian sympathies before the Tory government introduced the draft in preparation for this land war, but the captain replied without umbrage.
'Just tell him, corporal. Tell him what I just said.'
Nodding, Nick then whispered to the Russian. Smithson spun the prisoner around, so that his back was towards the squad. Resigned to whatever Smithson's order might be, TSE reluctantly fell in line with the others and racked his weapon off safety. The prisoner jumped. Smithson looked at his squad - SeanT's eyes were glittering, SeaShantyIrish's were hooded with a hunter's nonchalance, Malmesbury's were as dead as the stones covering the corpses.
Then Smithson said to Nick, 'Tell him to march two hundred paces and wait until he can't hear us anymore. Then he's to surrender himself to the first NATO patrol he runs into.'
'What?' Malmesbury said, shaking his head as if his ears were lying to him. 'Wait a goddam minute - '
'Yes, sir,' Nick said, relieved, but careful not to smile.
And to the young Russian he repeated Smithson's order in Russian. Then the captain checked the blindfold, snugging the knot tight, then patted the Russian twice on the shoulder, signalling him to take off, which he did.
'Close shave,' the Russian smiled, and said something like farewell in the vernacular. Nick allowed himself a smile.
The former prisoner's erstwhile captors watched him disappear into the distance, singing what sounded like, 'It's coming home, it's coming home!' until he was too far away for them to hear anything.