The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
Not how I intended it to be read!
I'm sure not. You'll agree that the police didn't kill all those people?
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
I'm going to get shouted at for this, but when Liverpudlians talk about never forgiving over Hillsborough, I do think of the Heysel Stadium disaster, where Liverpool fans caused the deaths of 39 people. If they can be forgiven for the behaviour of their fans in that awful tragedy, how come they cannot find it in their hearts to forgive for what was a very human set of mistakes, and even the injustices that occurred afterwards?
Also, IMV the root cause of Hillsborough was not learning the mistakes of Heysel and other stadium disasters (e.g. Bradford, or the two/three Ibrox disasters). An accident as always going to happen, and the fact we've not had one since is down to the changes made.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
Not how I intended it to be read!
I'm sure not. You'll agree that the police didn't kill all those people?
Absolutely. They contributed to the deaths, but the main cause was the stadium itself.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
That doesn’t make it a greater or lesser injustice. It’s simply a poor operational response compounding a tragedy
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
I shied always from saying that about Johnson out of respect, but wis words had some truth in them. Nowhere does wallowing in grief like a scouser, especially if it nurses a grievance too.
You and Casino have just reminded me why I so dislike Boris Johnson and his brand of heartless Conservatism.
That's your confirmation bias talking.
I can make an (in my view, accurate) uncomfortable point without being morally bankrupt. And I don't support Boris Johnson either.
The rest is your emotions rationalised themselves against a strawman.
Strawman my arse!
You quoted Johnson's crass and thoughtless meanderings. You then stated that Johnson's analysis that people from a particular UK city are absorbed in self pity and can't let go of their grief from tragedy is correct.
Just saw that Tiger Woods is even after Saturday's round at Augusta National.
Which is pretty good, seeing as how Marty Smith on ESPN radio this AM observed that the weather had deteriorated seriously in just the two hours they's been on the air.
Cold weather NOT being good for TW's leg, back, you-name-it. Though reckon wind plays to his strengths, including disciplined control, situational awareness and iron will - on the golf course anyway.
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This thread has been ruled offside by VAR
Also, IMV the root cause of Hillsborough was not learning the mistakes of Heysel and other stadium disasters (e.g. Bradford, or the two/three Ibrox disasters). An accident as always going to happen, and the fact we've not had one since is down to the changes made.
Hurrah for Lord Justice Taylor!
You quoted Johnson's crass and thoughtless meanderings. You then stated that Johnson's analysis that people from a particular UK city are absorbed in self pity and can't let go of their grief from tragedy is correct.
Johnson's and by choice your stereotype is wrong.
Which is pretty good, seeing as how Marty Smith on ESPN radio this AM observed that the weather had deteriorated seriously in just the two hours they's been on the air.
Cold weather NOT being good for TW's leg, back, you-name-it. Though reckon wind plays to his strengths, including disciplined control, situational awareness and iron will - on the golf course anyway.