Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
That is highly offensive to the gas station attendants I have encountered.
Some of them are a bit argumentative, but I struggle to recall one who committed war crimes, light recreational genocide and crimes against interior decorating like this
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
I do love your predictions, particularly the long odds ones. Point 1 seems very logical. Not so sure about 2 but that might be my bias of not wanting it.
@KevinRothrock Moscow is demanding an emergency session of the UN Security Council tomorrow to discuss “Ukrainian radicals’ provocation” in Bucha (the town outside Kyiv where Russian troops slaughtered hundreds of civilians but deny it).
The UN need to move to a position where no one nation can veto a peace-keeping force.
I like the idea but Putin has enough allies, to stop even if 15 could not stop a peacekeeping force, Putin got 16 votes in last assembly, and many more abstaining.
incidentally, I hope we stop giving any 'aid' to nations that voted with Putin in the UK last time, maybe the abstainers as well.
I'm thinking no member of the security council could veto a peace-keeping force.
If ever there was a need for a UN peace keeping force, it is Ukraine.
Peace keeping forces are not peace making forces. The protagonists have to agree first.
I am all for an honest investigation of events in #Bucha and similar recaptured towns by independent observers, probably best from experienced war crimes investigators. I don't think Ukraine has anything to fear from this, and investigators on the ground ASAP will help with necessary war crimes trials
It’s a puzzle thinking through where Russia will be 5 years from now. The actions of its army are such that there will now be no watering down of sanctions, forgive and forget after a carve up, business as usual etc…
The war will go on until Ukraine has driven Russia out of the Donbass supported by renewed Western resolve (and advanced weaponry). And the sanctions (both legally mandated and behaviourally gold plated) will likely long outlast the war, unless we strike gold and Putin dies and is replaced by an Abramovich type.
So what happens to the Russian state and it’s civil society? Its military will be substantially weaker. Its economy resembling autarky. And its population likely smaller, less internationalist and more extremist.
Then what? Some unsettling possibilities, including Balkanisation. But who bloody knows.
Russia will not give up the donbass...if their backs are to the walk chemical weapons or tactical nukes will be used...your argument falls apart here as Putin can't afford a defeat
Putin would not long survive the use of chemical and especially nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
Why not?
The use of a nuclear weapon in the Donbass would be met in kind by the United States. Probably initially on a remote military base, a submarine or naval base perhaps. But it’s hard to second guess the target from the outside. Whatever, we’d be firmly in coup territory after that exchange of fire.
Chemical weapons - my gut is that it would draw Nato countries into far more direct intervention than we’ve seen. No reason I can see why we wouldnt see a volley of cruise missiles taking out every Russian formation in the Donbass. Maybe they’d paint a blue and yellow flag on them, maybe they wouldn’t bother. And as our Putinista troll has just said, the loss of Donbass would be unsurvivable for Putin.
His best chance of dying in his bed from whatever is afflicting him, is a grinding stalemate, not escalating in a way that is unwinnable for him.
On Topic - Re: Santa Monica, note that one notable resident in early 20th century was Will Rogers. The man who famously (and correctly) said, "I belong to no organized political party - I'm a Democrat".
Rogers was incredibly popular as cowboy entertainer, newspaper columnists and movie star. He received semi-serious votes for President at several Democratic National Conventions.
So what is the Rishi Sunak - Will Rogers connection? Beyond the Santa Monica pier, that is?
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
On the second point I very much agree with you tactically. By which I mean that it is going to look quite close and the markets often favour the more right wing candidate. Though I think on the day Macron may do a bit better than expected. So I have backed Le Pen hugely with rhe hope to trade out between R1 and R2.
I know what you mean, if it's close in R1, some may flock to Macron to ensure Le Pen doesn't win but I think Macron has p1ssed off enough people that the anti-Macron vote in France is probably as great, if not greater, than the anti-Le Pen vote
I have backed Le Pen quite heavily. Not least because it may well work as a trading bet when it comes to the second round as the odds will likely shorten.
I agree Trump is toast. Even the Republicans areng that stupid, but maybe lay him rather than back Desantis, as someone else may emerge. Primaries do that some cycles.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
"Kaczynski also said that Poland would be "open" to having nuclear weapons stationed in the country but that this was not something currently under consideration."
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
Like, cogent analysis, albeit don't fully agree though certainly could play out just this way.
Cheers @SeaShantyIrish2 and hope all is good. I think Trump is on a bit of a downward path now, his candidates don't seem to be gaining overwhelming traction.
Am personally allergic to thinking that 45 is down, let alone out, until we have more, and more solid, evidence. Such as the 2022 primaries, special elections & elections may provide. Though reckon that will be a mixed picture.
Also not all that sure if DeSantis has staying power past 2022. Certainly he has to beat Charlie Criss for Gov, and more than by a small margin, to reaffirm his continued "availablity" as they used to say look ahead to 2024.
@KevinRothrock Moscow is demanding an emergency session of the UN Security Council tomorrow to discuss “Ukrainian radicals’ provocation” in Bucha (the town outside Kyiv where Russian troops slaughtered hundreds of civilians but deny it).
The UN need to move to a position where no one nation can veto a peace-keeping force.
I like the idea but Putin has enough allies, to stop even if 15 could not stop a peacekeeping force, Putin got 16 votes in last assembly, and many more abstaining.
incidentally, I hope we stop giving any 'aid' to nations that voted with Putin in the UK last time, maybe the abstainers as well.
Do we know who those 16 were?
Only 4, I think - the obvious suspects, none of whom receive our aid. The abstentions were more significant, notably China and India.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
@KevinRothrock Moscow is demanding an emergency session of the UN Security Council tomorrow to discuss “Ukrainian radicals’ provocation” in Bucha (the town outside Kyiv where Russian troops slaughtered hundreds of civilians but deny it).
The UN need to move to a position where no one nation can veto a peace-keeping force.
I like the idea but Putin has enough allies, to stop even if 15 could not stop a peacekeeping force, Putin got 16 votes in last assembly, and many more abstaining.
incidentally, I hope we stop giving any 'aid' to nations that voted with Putin in the UK last time, maybe the abstainers as well.
Do we know who those 16 were?
Only 4, I think - the obvious suspects, none of whom receive our aid. The abstentions were more significant, notably China and India.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
Depressing, isn't it (the Serbian election similarly)? But the opposition alliance always looked a bit Coalition of Chaos, with everyone from far left to far right, united only by not being Orban.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
You're expending an awful lot of energy attacking something that 'nobody cares' about.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
💥 🍷 NEW: The Government’s former head of propriety and ethics has been fined over a “raucous” karaoke party in the Cabinet Office at which there was a drunken brawl.
FPNs also issued over the No10 party in April 2021.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
If they’d been part of the bunch of lads digging trenches around Chernobyl they could well have mutated.
NEW: The Government’s former head of propriety and ethics has been fined over a “raucous” karaoke party in the Cabinet Office at which there was a drunken brawl.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
I do love your predictions, particularly the long odds ones. Point 1 seems very logical. Not so sure about 2 but that might be my bias of not wanting it.
Cheers @kjh. Let's see. I should have also said when I suggest bets, I don't do trading ones, I put the money straight on what I think. Keeps me honest
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
You're expending an awful lot of energy attacking something that 'nobody cares' about.
Ah, the Hound of Heaven card. Playable until about Chesterton's day. Long time ago.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
Like, cogent analysis, albeit don't fully agree though certainly could play out just this way.
Cheers @SeaShantyIrish2 and hope all is good. I think Trump is on a bit of a downward path now, his candidates don't seem to be gaining overwhelming traction.
Am personally allergic to thinking that 45 is down, let alone out, until we have more, and more solid, evidence. Such as the 2022 primaries, special elections & elections may provide. Though reckon that will be a mixed picture.
Also not all that sure if DeSantis has staying power past 2022. Certainly he has to beat Charlie Criss for Gov, and more than by a small margin, to reaffirm his continued "availablity" as they used to say look ahead to 2024.
I think that DeSantis will beat Crist by quite a healthy margin. Florida has had an influx of people from other states and, anecdotally, they don't like the Democrats. Plus the Hispanic vote has probably moved more in the GOP's way.
Trump has staying power and he is still formidable but I think he screwed up with Russia big time here, and the longer it goes on, the more his stance will be criticised. Plus, if Biden doesn't run in 2024 (which I don't think he will), that takes away another motivating factor for Trump.
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
Like, cogent analysis, albeit don't fully agree though certainly could play out just this way.
Cheers @SeaShantyIrish2 and hope all is good. I think Trump is on a bit of a downward path now, his candidates don't seem to be gaining overwhelming traction.
Am personally allergic to thinking that 45 is down, let alone out, until we have more, and more solid, evidence. Such as the 2022 primaries, special elections & elections may provide. Though reckon that will be a mixed picture.
Also not all that sure if DeSantis has staying power past 2022. Certainly he has to beat Charlie Criss for Gov, and more than by a small margin, to reaffirm his continued "availablity" as they used to say look ahead to 2024.
On Le Pen, do we have any polling data on what the structure of the extra votes she appears to have picked up might be? Where is she making gains?
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
Just as clueless
Pray for me. Also, reflect on how using that smiley thing makes you look. Hallelujah.
"Kaczynski also said that Poland would be "open" to having nuclear weapons stationed in the country but that this was not something currently under consideration."
Read that first as "Krzyzewski"
As in long-time Duke University men's basket ball coach Mike Krzyzewski, who's team played his final as coach in NCAA tournament last night, his 13th appearance in Final Four.
Duke Bluedevils lost to the Tarheels of University North Carolina, a HUGE rivalry down on Tobacco Road in one of America's top basketball-crazy states (others being Indiana & Kentucky). Indeed, Duke & UNC campuses are only 8 miles apart (Chapel Hill & Durham)
Though as noted by Marty & McGee yesterday on ESPN Radio/SEC Network TV, the REAL basketball semi-civil war in North Carolina, is between UNC and North Carolina State (Raleigh) which is just down the road also.
Native North Carolinians have less attachment to Duke versus UNC, NC State & etc, because not many attend Duke. Though Marty Smith's grandfather was a fan, because he was a Methodist and Duke is also, officially anyway.
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
On the second point I very much agree with you tactically. By which I mean that it is going to look quite close and the markets often favour the more right wing candidate. Though I think on the day Macron may do a bit better than expected. So I have backed Le Pen hugely with rhe hope to trade out between R1 and R2.
I know what you mean, if it's close in R1, some may flock to Macron to ensure Le Pen doesn't win but I think Macron has p1ssed off enough people that the anti-Macron vote in France is probably as great, if not greater, than the anti-Le Pen vote
I have backed Le Pen quite heavily. Not least because it may well work as a trading bet when it comes to the second round as the odds will likely shorten.
I agree Trump is toast. Even the Republicans areng that stupid, but maybe lay him rather than back Desantis, as someone else may emerge. Primaries do that some cycles.
Re laying Trump, agreed it may be the better bet but I think DeSantis has really established a march on his rivals and being Governor of Florida has given him a platform to do something about the GOP's bete noires. In the GOP media (which I get won't be your forte), he is attracting a lot of praise and certainly more than his possible non-Trump rivals.
@KevinRothrock Moscow is demanding an emergency session of the UN Security Council tomorrow to discuss “Ukrainian radicals’ provocation” in Bucha (the town outside Kyiv where Russian troops slaughtered hundreds of civilians but deny it).
The UN need to move to a position where no one nation can veto a peace-keeping force.
I like the idea but Putin has enough allies, to stop even if 15 could not stop a peacekeeping force, Putin got 16 votes in last assembly, and many more abstaining.
incidentally, I hope we stop giving any 'aid' to nations that voted with Putin in the UK last time, maybe the abstainers as well.
Do we know who those 16 were?
Only 4, I think - the obvious suspects, none of whom receive our aid. The abstentions were more significant, notably China and India.
💥 🍷 NEW: The Government’s former head of propriety and ethics has been fined over a “raucous” karaoke party in the Cabinet Office at which there was a drunken brawl.
FPNs also issued over the No10 party in April 2021.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited the Pope last year and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Church and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited and paid homage to the Pope last year at the Vatican and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
NEW: The Government’s former head of propriety and ethics has been fined over a “raucous” karaoke party in the Cabinet Office at which there was a drunken brawl.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
I’ve long had a feeling Belarus could be an important key to the defeat of Putin. A military mutiny or coup, supported on the streets, and suddenly it all comes crashing down. The WW2 analogue would be Italy ditching Mussolini and switching sides.
A democratic Belarus on the path to EU accession would be nice to see.
Completely off topic: I’ve just discovered that ABBA recorded many of their songs in Spanish and they work really well. It’s like hearing them for the first time.
Impact on his election or not, it's important for political leaders to fire whichever 20 year old spad suggests such silly stunts. Best case scenario no one cares, but it's still never as funny as the planners think. See crashing through foam bricks etc.
I remember watching "Connections" when it first came out and being amazed by it: I'm not sure that it has had an equal (possibly "Cosmos" or "Life on Earth"?)
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
Just as clueless
Pray for me. Also, reflect on how using that smiley thing makes you look. Hallelujah.
You seem to be wobbling atop of a leaning tower of assumptions.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
Nope. The Church of Norway was disestablished in 2012. It is no more part of the State than any other religion now.
And in Denmark the Head of State is not the Head of the Church. The legal responsibility for the Church falls ona specific Government minister.
So you are wrong in both those cases. Indeed as I said, none of the other European constitutional monarchies has the Head of State as the head of religion. All the others are disestablished.
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Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
There is some partisan activity in Belarus already, albeit small scale.
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month. 1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
So? Still doesn't justify bishops in the HoL. Where does the logic follow? Just because Henry VIII wanted to do something his way? On that logic, we should be executing the disgraced partners of royalty, and invading France.
Of course it does, otherwise the Vatican becomes the main authority for non evangelical Christians in England again as it was pre Reformation in terms of legislative message. Plus most lose the right to Parish weddings and funerals post disestablishment too
So? Other countries manage fine. Wales, Scotland, Ireland ...
In Ireland the Roman Catholic church dominates.
In Scotland and Wales the Roman Catholic church is also bigger than the Scottish Episcopal Church and the Church in Wales, so again the Pope is now the main figurehead for non evangelicals
It was interesting that, during the Covid pandemic, Catholic bishops argued many times for churches to be exempted from restrictions, or to receive special treatment, and it didn't happen.
There are still issues with the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland, but its domination has been broken. And the same is true of bishops in the House of Lords. Of course, it is absurd, but when was the last time it made a material difference to anything?
There are still 1.3 billion Roman Catholics worldwide.
The Pope has under his authority more people than any world leader other than the PM of India and the President of China. That authority would replace that of the UK monarch and Archbishop of Canterbury in England for most non evangelical Christians as soon as the Church of England was disestablished
Maybe you are right, though I doubt it, but either way hardly anyone would notice.
Mainline Protestants in England would notice, as would Roman Catholics.
It would effectively reverse the Reformation and replace the Monarch with the Pope again as the head of the main Catholic church in England
der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen
Nobody cares.
Clueless.
Sure. God bothering is deffo still mainstream because everyone you know is a god botherer.
Just as clueless
Pray for me. Also, reflect on how using that smiley thing makes you look. Hallelujah.
You seem to be wobbling atop of a leaning tower of assumptions.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
On the second point I very much agree with you tactically. By which I mean that it is going to look quite close and the markets often favour the more right wing candidate. Though I think on the day Macron may do a bit better than expected. So I have backed Le Pen hugely with rhe hope to trade out between R1 and R2.
I know what you mean, if it's close in R1, some may flock to Macron to ensure Le Pen doesn't win but I think Macron has p1ssed off enough people that the anti-Macron vote in France is probably as great, if not greater, than the anti-Le Pen vote
I have backed Le Pen quite heavily. Not least because it may well work as a trading bet when it comes to the second round as the odds will likely shorten.
I agree Trump is toast. Even the Republicans areng that stupid, but maybe lay him rather than back Desantis, as someone else may emerge. Primaries do that some cycles.
Re laying Trump, agreed it may be the better bet but I think DeSantis has really established a march on his rivals and being Governor of Florida has given him a platform to do something about the GOP's bete noires. In the GOP media (which I get won't be your forte), he is attracting a lot of praise and certainly more than his possible non-Trump rivals.
Ny Times certainly worried about DeSantis. He is the one to watch as he is Trump but focussed and organized.
Impact on his election or not, it's important for political leaders to fire whichever 20 year old spad suggests such silly stunts. Best case scenario no one cares, but it's still never as funny as the planners think. See crashing through foam bricks etc.
Worked years ago with a Boston "wise guy" consultant (true in more ways than one his case) who was in the entourage back in 1988 or thereabouts, on the very day when Mike Dukakis toured a tank factory, and was infamously filmed by his own crew driving a tank.
Which became the centerpiece for the 2nd-most effective Bush the Elder campaign commercial, the comic relief as it were to #1, the Willy Horton ad.
I asked my friend, what happened? He said (I paraphrase slightly) "I told them not to do it because it made the Governor look like a fucking idiot. But they went ahead and did it anyway."
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Santa Claus would be excellent at canvassing, he could go round all the houses on the night before the election.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
Nope. The Church of Norway was disestablished in 2012. It is no more part of the State than any other religion now.
And in Denmark the Head of State is not the Head of the Church. The legal responsibility for the Church falls ona specific Government minister.
So you are wrong in both those cases. Indeed as I said, none of the other European constitutional monarchies has the Head of State as the head of religion. All the others are disestablished.
Article 16 of the Norwegian constitution makes clear the Church of Norway is 'the established Church' and that the state must support it. Article 4 also requires the Norwegian monarch to be a member of the Church of Norway.
Section 4 of the Constitution of Denmark also confirms the Church of the Denmark as the established church. The only reason the monarch is not the head of them is the Lutheran Church is an evangelical church not a Catholic church like the Church of England. However in both nations it remains the established church under the constitution.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited and paid homage to the Pope last year at the Vatican and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
This is one of your most bizarre assertions, that Republicanism means the return of the Pope. No way will British Protestants accept that.
Impact on his election or not, it's important for political leaders to fire whichever 20 year old spad suggests such silly stunts. Best case scenario no one cares, but it's still never as funny as the planners think. See crashing through foam bricks etc.
Worked years ago with a Boston "wise guy" consultant (true in more ways than one his case) who was in the entourage back in 1988 or thereabouts, on the very day when Mike Dukakis toured a tank factory, and was infamously filmed by his own crew driving a tank.
Which became the centerpiece for the 2nd-most effective Bush the Elder campaign commercial, the comic relief as it were to #1, the Willy Horton ad.
I asked my friend, what happened? He said (I paraphrase slightly) "I told them not to do it because it made the Governor look like a fucking idiot. But they went ahead and did it anyway."
Another awesome photo op, where someone needed firing
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Santa Claus would be excellent at canvassing, he could go round all the houses on the night before the election.
Plus MUCH less danger of fires actually being lite in Alaska chimneys in June as compared with December
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is there a market in who gets though to the second round? if so it might be worth putting a few bob on Santa cause, Palin and the inevitably not Palin will sock up most of the vote, the rest will be split 49 ways, so getting a % or 2 might be enough and who wouldn't vote for Santa.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
There is some partisan activity in Belarus already, albeit small scale.
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month. 1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Hmmm.... Has the UK deployed the unthinkable? Have they sent in.....
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
There is some partisan activity in Belarus already, albeit small scale.
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month. 1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Yes, I noticed that, very brave, but probably quite helpful to the Ukrainian war effort.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
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Santa Claus would be excellent at canvassing, he could go round all the houses on the night before the election.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
There is some partisan activity in Belarus already, albeit small scale.
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month. 1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Hmmm.... Has the UK deployed the unthinkable? Have they sent in.....
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited and paid homage to the Pope last year at the Vatican and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
This is one of your most bizarre assertions, that Republicanism means the return of the Pope. No way will British Protestants accept that.
Evangelicals may not but many of them are Baptists and Pentecostals not Church of England. Most Anglo Catholics in the Church of England would probably even convert back to Rome after disestablishment and soon the Roman Catholic Church would again be the largest church in England for the first time since the Reformation. The Church of England would be a small mainly liberal church
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
I agree with the first, and tactically agree with the second.
But... I think Le Pen faces a very uphill battle in the second round of the French Presidential election. Macrons favorables are at a three and a half year high (https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/), and while -10 sounds bad... It's still 14 points better than Le Pen. I think her best chance comes from Macron complacency, and her poll surge makes that less likely. While she's a tradng buy into the first round, I suspect Macron ends up winning relatively comfortably in the second.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Getting away from the Russian trolls on here, two betting tips out of the crisis:
1. GOP POTUS nomination 2024: Sell Trump, buy DeSantis - my personal view is that what has happened in the Ukraine is going to be the thing that turns the GOP base against Trump. Not hugely so but enough to let other contenders feel this is not a suicide mission and to make their move. Plus Trump is vulnerable given his comments about the war, especially the "Putin is a genius" line. As for DeSantis, he has managed to pick himself another culture war fight with Disney that is winning him kudos amongst the GOP base.
2. French Presidential election - sell Macron, buy Le Pen. There has been a lot of talk on here that the French would never vote for the "fascist" Le Pen. However, the world has changed and electorates are likely to shift to politicians who display some backbone. Macron is not that person. I don't think it's a coincidence that his poll ratings have slipped in tandem with his increasingly desperate calls to Putin. He looks like a weakling and someone who is ignored, and the French like to think their Presidents have some inner strength.
On the second point I very much agree with you tactically. By which I mean that it is going to look quite close and the markets often favour the more right wing candidate. Though I think on the day Macron may do a bit better than expected. So I have backed Le Pen hugely with rhe hope to trade out between R1 and R2.
That's my MO too on the French. And on USA as all know I'm supershort Trump. So, good grief, I'm with Mr Ed.
Could there come a point when the Belorussian army turns on Lukashenko? Rumour has it that there would have been a mutiny if they were forced to invade - perhaps you can argue that there already has been if that is the case!
It does open up the opportunity to deal with problems like Transnistria and South Ossetia too.
I think that the Belorussian army would have mutated or defected n mass if sent in to Ukraine and that's the only reason they where not sent. it could still happen when the Russian troops redeploy, but I suspect now the prospect of being sent to war that you disagree with is off the table, that people will not what to put there heads above the parapet.
Perhaps. But I wouldn’t rule out the nice men from Langley dropping in with some briefcases full of incentives.
maybe
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
There is some partisan activity in Belarus already, albeit small scale.
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month. 1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Hmmm.... Has the UK deployed the unthinkable? Have they sent in.....
{drum roll}
South West Trains?
Surely not allowed under the Geneva Convention?
Time to play to win.
Next drop a Piers Corbyn on maximum yield setting.
Then use Starlink to jam every transmission in Russia with continuous Radiohead playback...
A pretty strong condemnation of France and Germany from Zelensky:
@mrsorokaa ⚡️ “I invite Merkel and Sarkozy to visit Bucha and to see the outcome of 14 years of concessions to Russia,” Zelensky said in his video address.
“You will see with your own eyes the tortured Ukrainians.”
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
The Ukrainians still want to fight and to free their country. Until they decide otherwise it is up to us to support them to the very best of our ability.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
He can make up whatever shite as a win he wants on state TV, which would be absolutely no different to what he's already been doing. So the argument that he needs something to sell to his own people makes no real sense.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Well I've no idea why that is can you explain further please what are these blacklists
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited and paid homage to the Pope last year at the Vatican and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
This is one of your most bizarre assertions, that Republicanism means the return of the Pope. No way will British Protestants accept that.
Evangelicals may not but many of them are Baptists and Pentecostals not Church of England. Most Anglo Catholics in the Church of England would probably even convert back to Rome after disestablishment and soon the Roman Catholic Church would again be the largest church in England for the first time since the Reformation. The Church of England would be a small mainly liberal church
What I don't understand is why any of this matters. Don't you all just belong to the church you want to belong to? You aren't competing are you? Or are you? I'm genuinely confused.
I have no objection to religion or different churches, but I would like to be left out of it. While one sect is established it does have an impact, albeit minor.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Well I've no idea why that is can you explain further please what are these blacklists
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Well I've no idea why that is can you explain further please what are these blacklists
Just to help you out here: "...what these blacklists are" would be better.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Well I've no idea why that is can you explain further please what are these blacklists
Are you using a very strange VPN?
Asking for a friend.
I've no idea mate better ask rcs he seems very interested in this
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
Sigh - he was telling you to sell the Skyfleet puts - NOW!!!
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
So do you think the USA Christians defer to the Pope?
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
The largest Christian church in the USA is the Roman Catholic church. President Biden is himself a Roman Catholic who visited and paid homage to the Pope last year at the Vatican and regularly attends Mass.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
This is one of your most bizarre assertions, that Republicanism means the return of the Pope. No way will British Protestants accept that.
Evangelicals may not but many of them are Baptists and Pentecostals not Church of England. Most Anglo Catholics in the Church of England would probably even convert back to Rome after disestablishment and soon the Roman Catholic Church would again be the largest church in England for the first time since the Reformation. The Church of England would be a small mainly liberal church
As has already been pointed out to you by people who seemingly know a lot more about it than you, most of the Anglo-Catholics have already returned to the Catholic church over the issue of female ordination. A change of the figurehead at the top is not going to cause a mass exodus.
The greatest threat to your church is not Catholicism but agnosticism and atheism.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
It's not my decision of course, it it up to Ukraine, but hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die if they are trapped on the wrong side of a cease-fire line. Her son (or daughter: plenty of women are fighting) will have died defending her and indeed us in a wider sense.
So we should give them as much support as we can without actually triggering WWIII so that the Ukrainian armed forces have as good a chance as they can of coming back: after all, in the words of a famous US general:
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
We politely ask the Ukrainian army to stop before the Chinese border. By offering Zelensky an Oscar for "Servant of the People", in return
CLAUS, SANTA (UNDECLARED) (CERTIFIED) PO BOX 55122 NORTH POLE, AK 99705 (907) 388-3836 Email: CAMPAIGN-SANTACLAUSFORALASKA@USA.NET Web Site: HTTPS://WWW.SANTACLAUSFORALASKA.COM
PALIN, SARAH (REGISTERED REPUBLICAN) (CERTIFIED) PO BOX 871235 WASILLA, AK 99687 (907) 631-0490 Email: INFO@SARAHFORALASKA.COM Web Site: HTTPS://WWW.SARAHFORALASKA.COM
Santa Claus would be excellent at canvassing, he could go round all the houses on the night before the election.
Particularly iffy on electoral bribery though.
Must caution you (unofficially) that Santa Claus is current a member of the North Pole, Alaska city council, having been elected - at the top of the pole - receiving 102 votes.
Personally believe Santa's campaign was a clean as the driven snow! Maybe you could solicit depositions from disgruntled elves?
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
It's not my decision of course, it it up to Ukraine, but hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will die if they are trapped on the wrong side of a cease-fire line. Her son (or daughter: plenty of women are fighting) will have died defending her and indeed us in a wider sense.
So we should give them as much support as we can without actually triggering WWIII so that the Ukrainian armed forces have as good a chance as they can of coming back: after all, in the words of a famous US general:
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
If putin was given an off ramp I don't think you would see the slaughter that would come from the alternative...a war of attrition
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
Any chance you can explain why your IP shows in a bunch of different blacklists?
Well I've no idea why that is can you explain further please what are these blacklists
Are you using a very strange VPN?
Asking for a friend.
I've no idea mate better ask rcs he seems very interested in this
Virgil Malloy : Who you calling bud, pal? Turk Malloy : Who you calling pal, friend? Virgil Malloy : Who you calling friend, jackass? Turk Malloy : Don't call me a jackass. Virgil Malloy : I just did call you a jackass.
Most of Ukraine wouldn't be under russian occupation after a ceasefire except possibly the donbass which will satisfy Putin so your point is invalid
Anything that would "satisfy" Putin is by definition a line too far. Putin must lose and be seen to lose. Putin and his coterie of murderous war criminals are not fit to breathe the air in the company of decent people.
Frankly he should be strung up by his bollocks in any town square in Ukraine although I would settle for a life term sentence after a war crimes trial in the Hague, but it's a close call.
Sadly the west can't afford to just let Putin lose win...that will be too dangerous...he needs a small win he can sell whilst we in the west plan our next move
Fixed it for you.
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
Please debate intelligently...thankyou
OK
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
I agree. He has to lose. But he needs something to sell to his own people or Russia won't stop fighting and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians will lose their lives. Try explaining your stance to a Ukrainian mother who loses her son in the months of war of grinding attrition. Please try
We politely ask the Ukrainian army to stop before the Chinese border. By offering Zelensky an Oscar for "Servant of the People", in return
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Rubbish. I have zero problems with people talking: especially if it means it might divert people away from an evil course.
IIRC alongside Iran and The Vatican we're the only nations to have unelected clergy in our parliament.
I find that very scary and undemocratic.
The bishops are less than 5% of the Lords and they also have a higher percentage of Oxbridge degrees than other peers and MPs do.
Most of them have done parish ministry at some time as well, rooted in the problems of local communities. They are educated and experienced and the type of people we need in the Lords, certainly not more ex politicians and wealthy party donors who increasingly make up the rest of the Lords now
Even so, it is, erm, eccentric by 21st century standards to have members of only one privileged sect of one religion given automatic seats.
Bleating about what C of E priests have or have not done doesn't negate the point that other priests, and ministers, Quaker meeting secretaries, imams, etc., also deal with such matters. So the C of E is not specially privileged in that sense.
Edit: And we need fewer, not more, Oxbridge graduates in Parliament, in both houses.
No it isn’t. The Bishops have been in the Lords since the Middle Ages. They represent the established church. The moment they are removed the main established church in the UK would revert to the Vatican and the Pope.
Quakers and Protestant evangelicals are not part of an established church like the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are. In Iran where Muslims are a majority clerics are also represented in the legislature. No reason we cannot have a few other religious leaders in the Lords as we have Rabbis already but the Bishops must remain there
Oh, why don't we beign back the humoral theory of illness and villeinage and so on, if doing something in mediaeval times is a reason to do it now? But I forgot, you want to bring back the squire and yokel model of society. Any recommendations about chicken soup for the Black Death?
As for the 21st century: just delete the establishment of one sect. No established sect, no worry about the Pope muscling in. Actually, the Pope taking over the 'main established church', that's the craziest justification I have ever seen for bishops' bums in the HoL. One would need to be living in the 16th or 17th century to take it seriously.
Nope. Just look at the USA or Canada where the Anglican Church is not the established church and Christianity is dominated by the Roman Catholic Church on one side and evangelical churches like the Pentecostals and Baptists on the other. The Anglican Church is just a small liberal minority. Australia and New Zealand are moving the same way.
In Europe the Roman Catholic Church dominates except in a few nations like Norway where the Lutheran church is also still the established church.
If the Church of England ceases to be the established church then the automatic right of every resident of a Church of England parish to a wedding or funeral there goes with it. Church of England churches would exclude anyone from marrying or being buried in its historic churches unless they were baptised in the Church and regular worshippers there
They don't get to keep the churches in the divorce settlement.
They do, they own them all since the Reformation. They are not going back to Rome, the Roman Catholics have their own English churches now (albeit rather newer ones)
No, the state owns the churches via, at the moment, the C of E. If rCofE wants to keep some (and god knows why it would given its inability to fill them) it can do a management buyout. Otherwise we'll hand some back to the papists and keep the rest for pagan genderqueer life affirmation ceremonies. With ayahuasca.
The state does not own Church of England churches. They are owned by what is called 'the corporation sole' which is in effect a subsidiary of the Parish Council directed by the incumbent of the parish. But as they do not have title deeds and they are not technically transmissible or saleable, it isn't actually terribly clear what this means in practice.
It's one reason why it's a bit of a bugger to work out what to do with a closed church.
In the case of a rector, I believe the corporation sole is the rector himself. Vicars and parsons is different. But in practice, if we disestablished, the idea that all this ancient fabric paid for by centuries of tithe-extortion belongs to the handful of cultists which is the C of E, is for the birds.
Oh it very much does belong to the Church via the PCC.
Any attempt to change that therefore would be theft
Let’s look back to when the Church of Ireland and the Church of England in Wales were disestablished: in neither case did anything “revert” to the Roman Catholic Church, nor did the state retain any ownership of the churches.
I did not say the churches reverted back. However in Ireland and Wales the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Church of Ireland or the Church in Wales. So non evangelicals look to the Pope as their main figurehead on earth, not the monarch and not the Archbishop of Canterbury.
No church in Scotland or Ireland provides an automatic right to every parishioner to a church wedding or funeral either
You think Irish protestants look to the pope for moral leadership ?
Well its a view.
They are Presbyterian evangelicals mainly, not in a Protestant church in the Catholic tradition like the Church of England.
In Ireland the Roman Catholic Church is now bigger than the Anglican Church of Ireland in both north and south
The catholic church has always been the biggest church in both north and south. But it is a spent force, it has no moral leadership due to sex scandals, mother and baby homes and corrupt bishops. It is running short of priests as hardly any new ones are being trained. The RoI has caught up the rest of Europe and looks for secular leadership.
The Pope is still the main religious guide on earth in Ireland, not the monarch as is the case in England.
If the Queen is the Anglican's "main religious guide on earth" then what is the point of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Royal families are an obscene anachronism that should be abolished.
The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury the symbolic head of the global Anglican Communion and leader of the Church of England. However the Monarch effectively heads the Church of England as they have done since the Reformation.
Constitutional monarchies are of course amongst the most prosperous and free nations on earth, as we are too
I have no problem with constitutional monarchies. I think they are a good way to govern. But that in no way necessitates the monarch being head of the Church. All those other constitutional monarchies get by perfectly well without that bit of medieval mendacity so I see no reason why we should not as well
In the constitutional monarchies of Norway or Denmark the Lutheran church is the established church, in part also to still stop the Roman Catholic Church becoming again the main church in the nation. Even if the Lutheran church as an evangelical church does not believe in having a top down head so much. In the constitutional monarchy of Spain for example where there is no established church the Roman Catholic church is still by far the largest church, so the default head of the established church is the Pope
Nope. The Church of Norway was disestablished in 2012. It is no more part of the State than any other religion now.
And in Denmark the Head of State is not the Head of the Church. The legal responsibility for the Church falls ona specific Government minister.
So you are wrong in both those cases. Indeed as I said, none of the other European constitutional monarchies has the Head of State as the head of religion. All the others are disestablished.
Article 16 of the Norwegian constitution makes clear the Church of Norway is 'the established Church' and that the state must support it. Article 4 also requires the Norwegian monarch to be a member of the Church of Norway.
Section 4 of the Constitution of Denmark also confirms the Church of the Denmark as the established church. The only reason the monarch is not the head of them is the Lutheran Church is an evangelical church not a Catholic church like the Church of England. However in both nations it remains the established church under the constitution.
Comments
Some of them are a bit argumentative, but I struggle to recall one who committed war crimes, light recreational genocide and crimes against interior decorating like this
I am all for an honest investigation of events in #Bucha and similar recaptured towns by independent observers, probably best from experienced war crimes investigators. I don't think Ukraine has anything to fear from this, and investigators on the ground ASAP will help with necessary war crimes trials
Chemical weapons - my gut is that it would draw Nato countries into far more direct intervention than we’ve seen. No reason I can see why we wouldnt see a volley of cruise missiles taking out every Russian formation in the Donbass. Maybe they’d paint a blue and yellow flag on them, maybe they wouldn’t bother. And as our Putinista troll has just said, the loss of Donbass would be unsurvivable for Putin.
His best chance of dying in his bed from whatever is afflicting him, is a grinding stalemate, not escalating in a way that is unwinnable for him.
Rogers was incredibly popular as cowboy entertainer, newspaper columnists and movie star. He received semi-serious votes for President at several Democratic National Conventions.
So what is the Rishi Sunak - Will Rogers connection? Beyond the Santa Monica pier, that is?
I agree Trump is toast. Even the Republicans areng that stupid, but maybe lay him rather than back Desantis, as someone else may emerge. Primaries do that some cycles.
"Kaczynski also said that Poland would be "open" to having nuclear weapons stationed in the country but that this was not something currently under consideration."
Also not all that sure if DeSantis has staying power past 2022. Certainly he has to beat Charlie Criss for Gov, and more than by a small margin, to reaffirm his continued "availablity" as they used to say look ahead to 2024.
https://inews.co.uk/news/un-russia-vote-full-voting-breakdown-north-korea-syria-back-putin-ukraine-invasion-1494907?msclkid=fa6c240eb38e11ec8c0e804f3e7554a0
The Government's former ethics chief Helen MacNamara has been fined over a ‘raucous’ Cabinet Office event during lockdown.
Reporting with @evansma @Tony_Diver https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/03/governments-former-ethics-chief-helen-macnamara-fined-raucous/
The two shootdowns (the Starstreak MI-24 heli and the Mig-35 (?) ), both seem to be in the very East of Ukr.
Another great British invention, IIRC
FPNs also issued over the No10 party in April 2021.
(w @evansma & @benrileysmith)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/03/governments-former-ethics-chief-helen-macnamara-fined-raucous/
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
NEW: The Government’s former head of propriety and ethics has been fined over a “raucous” karaoke party in the Cabinet Office at which there was a drunken brawl.
https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1510718992180256771
It is bonkers to say Republicanism in the British sense puts the pope in charge.
May God's love be with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WoDQBhJCVQ
For what its worth, I understand there quite a few Belarussians fighting alongside the Ukrainians at the moment.
Some where there already fighting in the Dombras, but since this all kicked off, many from the dissident/exile/diaspora have come back to fight, and others have deserted from the army in Belorussia. the biggest unit is abbot 300 strong, and there are others fighting in separate units. perhaps with the fighting experience they have they could return? if Lukashenko is as unpopular as thought might any unit sent to fight the dissidents defect?
Trump has staying power and he is still formidable but I think he screwed up with Russia big time here, and the longer it goes on, the more his stance will be criticised. Plus, if Biden doesn't run in 2024 (which I don't think he will), that takes away another motivating factor for Trump.
As in long-time Duke University men's basket ball coach Mike Krzyzewski, who's team played his final as coach in NCAA tournament last night, his 13th appearance in Final Four.
Duke Bluedevils lost to the Tarheels of University North Carolina, a HUGE rivalry down on Tobacco Road in one of America's top basketball-crazy states (others being Indiana & Kentucky). Indeed, Duke & UNC campuses are only 8 miles apart (Chapel Hill & Durham)
Though as noted by Marty & McGee yesterday on ESPN Radio/SEC Network TV, the REAL basketball semi-civil war in North Carolina, is between UNC and North Carolina State (Raleigh) which is just down the road also.
Native North Carolinians have less attachment to Duke versus UNC, NC State & etc, because not many attend Duke. Though Marty Smith's grandfather was a fan, because he was a Methodist and Duke is also, officially anyway.
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Church and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
The largest Protestant churches, the Baptist Churches and the Pentecostal churches are evangelical and influence politics in a socially conservative direction, especially the GOP.
The non established Anglican Episcopalian church is just a small liberal minority church, mainly based on the coasts
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10681899/Tommy-Robinson-held-police-Manchester-airport-thrown-Mexico.html
A democratic Belarus on the path to EU accession would be nice to see.
President says first lady Jill Biden was Obama's vice president
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10681745/President-says-lady-Jill-Biden-VP-latest-gaffe.html
@trtworld
Serbia’s President Vucic walks out of a fridge on TV ahead of the April 3 presidential elections in the country.
https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1509719701504598019
And in Denmark the Head of State is not the Head of the Church. The legal responsibility for the Church falls ona specific Government minister.
So you are wrong in both those cases. Indeed as I said, none of the other European constitutional monarchies has the Head of State as the head of religion. All the others are disestablished.
Christ, just looking at their vaccination rates, only a matter of time....
Official final candidate list, including . . .
https://www.elections.alaska.gov/Core/candidatelistspecprim.php
CLAUS, SANTA (UNDECLARED) (CERTIFIED)
PO BOX 55122
NORTH POLE, AK 99705
(907) 388-3836
Email: CAMPAIGN-SANTACLAUSFORALASKA@USA.NET
Web Site: HTTPS://WWW.SANTACLAUSFORALASKA.COM
PALIN, SARAH (REGISTERED REPUBLICAN) (CERTIFIED)
PO BOX 871235
WASILLA, AK 99687
(907) 631-0490
Email: INFO@SARAHFORALASKA.COM
Web Site: HTTPS://WWW.SARAHFORALASKA.COM
❗️Rail War: Belarusian partisans have committed at least 10 successful sabotages on the railway since the beginning of the war in Ukraine.
This infographic shows the main events of the rail war over the past month.
1/3 https://t.co/1Lfzjy5ScT
Which became the centerpiece for the 2nd-most effective Bush the Elder campaign commercial, the comic relief as it were to #1, the Willy Horton ad.
I asked my friend, what happened? He said (I paraphrase slightly) "I told them not to do it because it made the Governor look like a fucking idiot. But they went ahead and did it anyway."
Section 4 of the Constitution of Denmark also confirms the Church of the Denmark as the established church. The only reason the monarch is not the head of them is the Lutheran Church is an evangelical church not a Catholic church like the Church of England.
However in both nations it remains the established church under the constitution.
Thus in Norway 67% are Lutheran and only 3% Roman Catholic and in Denmark 74% are Lutheran and just 1.3% Roman Catholic. Whereas in virtually every other European nation, even the formerly Protestant majority Netherlands and Germany where there is no established church, either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church is the largest church apart from the UK (mainly because of the Church of England)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway#:~:text=Religion in Norway is dominated,by 3.4% of the population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Denmark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany
And don't use ellipsis to break up your statements.
https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1510064330301186050?s=20&t=XGZ8jlFSnvn9cMW7yacN4A
{drum roll}
South West Trains?
Putin HAS to lose and to be seen to lose, otherwise anytime he wants something he will take it. We cannot trust any promise he gives as we know he will break it, so any cease-fire will be treated as the start line for the next invasion.
But... I think Le Pen faces a very uphill battle in the second round of the French Presidential election. Macrons favorables are at a three and a half year high (https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/), and while -10 sounds bad... It's still 14 points better than Le Pen. I think her best chance comes from Macron complacency, and her poll surge makes that less likely. While she's a tradng buy into the first round, I suspect Macron ends up winning relatively comfortably in the second.
Rest of papers lead on war crimes in Bucha.
Next drop a Piers Corbyn on maximum yield setting.
Then use Starlink to jam every transmission in Russia with continuous Radiohead playback...
@mrsorokaa
⚡️ “I invite Merkel and Sarkozy to visit Bucha and to see the outcome of 14 years of concessions to Russia,” Zelensky said in his video address.
“You will see with your own eyes the tortured Ukrainians.”
https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1510691944938283009
I have no objection to religion or different churches, but I would like to be left out of it. While one sect is established it does have an impact, albeit minor.
Asking for a friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election
The greatest threat to your church is not Catholicism but agnosticism and atheism.
So we should give them as much support as we can without actually triggering WWIII so that the Ukrainian armed forces have as good a chance as they can of coming back: after all, in the words of a famous US general:
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country.
That can be Putin's win.
Personally believe Santa's campaign was a clean as the driven snow! Maybe you could solicit depositions from disgruntled elves?
https://www.northpolealaska.com/citycouncil
https://www.northpolealaska.com/sites/default/files/fileattachments/city_clerk/page/190/unofficial_election_results_-_city_of_north_pole.pdf
Turk Malloy : Who you calling pal, friend?
Virgil Malloy : Who you calling friend, jackass?
Turk Malloy : Don't call me a jackass.
Virgil Malloy : I just did call you a jackass.
Better still please do shut up as you are wasting everyone's time with your drivel.