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Sunak still favourite for next CON leader but only a 20% chance – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited April 2022 in General
imageSunak still favourite for next CON leader but only a 20% chance – politicalbetting.com

There’s been very little betting reaction to the latest news of the party gate fines and we are going to have to wait until we know what is going to happen to Johnson. It is still an evens chance that his exit date will be 2024 or later.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141
    I don't see Sunak as leader now; his time has gone and we are seeing the betting afterglow of his earlier big bang.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259
    It's not totally improbable that Sunak is not even an MP after 2024, having stood down after it becoming obvious at some point in the coming recession and income crisis that he will never get the top job.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,709
    The Germany energy ministry has just urged every household and business in the country to use as little gas as possible ahead of a Kremlin deadline for EU firms to pay their bills in rubles by tomorrow. /1

    There is no sign that Germany will comply with Putin's ultimatum, even though Russia has explicitly said it will turn off the taps unless Gazprom and other state-owned energy companies receive payment in rubles. /2


    https://twitter.com/olivernmoody/status/1509065487484952584
  • Options
    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    12 straight hours of continuous heavy rain, it's finally stopped.
    Snowing now.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Lay the favourite!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    I agree Johnson now remains in post as Tory leader and PM until the next general election unless the polls drastically change.

    Though Wallace now has better net ratings than Sunak in terms of the next Tory leader when Johnson does eventually go
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    And he answered that well. That is, it might not always be obvious when someone is transitioning etc. etc.

    I do think it's ridiculous to pretend that men have babies. They don't. Anyone having a baby is a mother.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    I agree Johnson now remains in post as Tory leader and PM until the next general election unless the polls drastically change.

    Though Wallace now has better net ratings than Sunak in terms of the next Tory leader when Johnson does eventually go

    It depends on Ukraine and whether a solution is achieved at which point there is a possibility he could decide to retire to the international speaker circuit, feted in Ukraine, and certainly box office for many

    Boris is a one off politician who frankly is bored with day to day politics and does not do detail as we all know

    I am not suggesting he won't lead but it is not 100% certain
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    Lay the favourite!

    (Except when the favourite was Boris Johnson....)
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,983

    HYUFD said:

    I agree Johnson now remains in post as Tory leader and PM until the next general election unless the polls drastically change.

    Though Wallace now has better net ratings than Sunak in terms of the next Tory leader when Johnson does eventually go

    It depends on Ukraine and whether a solution is achieved at which point there is a possibility he could decide to retire to the international speaker circuit, feted in Ukraine, and certainly box office for many

    Boris is a one off politician who frankly is bored with day to day politics and does not do detail as we all know

    I am not suggesting he won't lead but it is not 100% certain
    TSE had it right ages ago that Bozo wishes to be remember for multiple reasons including the length of tenure as PM.

    Which means that he wants to survive longer than May, longer than Brown and ideally longer than Cameron.

    That latter one is going to depend on (I suspect) not the likelihood of the Tories winning the next election but Bozo winning Uxbridge
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Sandpit said:

    Lay the favourite!

    (Except when the favourite was Boris Johnson....)
    Yeah, whoops.

    Thankfully the losses on that one, were outweighed by the profits on backing May at 10/1 a couple of years earlier!

    I think Sunak had a narrow window of opportunity, which has passed now that war, pandemic and birthday cake talk has been replaced by inflation and cost of living talk.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    tlg86 said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    And he answered that well. That is, it might not always be obvious when someone is transitioning etc. etc.

    I do think it's ridiculous to pretend that men have babies. They don't. Anyone having a baby is a mother.
    Pretty well every health-related form I've filled in over the past few years has had the pregnancy question on it. It's either include it or have multiple forms. Which, surely, increases the chances of error or loss!
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141

    Thinking about the types of leaders who have tended to take over a party after it has lost power, they often seem to be those that make a party feel good about itself - i.e. we lost because we weren't true enough to our ideals.

    So, in the scenario that the next leadership election occurs while Starmer is considering whether he can tolerate the wallpaper in No 10, we have to consider who would make the Tories feel good about themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone like Steve Baker, would be the leader who would let the Tories avoid facing up to why they lost for a good few years.

    The interesting question for me is whether those are the ideals of the Tory Party or the "ideals" of the dreadful lot who have taken it over.

    It is possible that a "comfort" leader of the kind you describe could *also* be the reformer who strips away the liars and the charlatans and gets them back to a core set of values of public service and administrative competence on which they could build.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    edited March 2022
    mwadams said:

    Thinking about the types of leaders who have tended to take over a party after it has lost power, they often seem to be those that make a party feel good about itself - i.e. we lost because we weren't true enough to our ideals.

    So, in the scenario that the next leadership election occurs while Starmer is considering whether he can tolerate the wallpaper in No 10, we have to consider who would make the Tories feel good about themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone like Steve Baker, would be the leader who would let the Tories avoid facing up to why they lost for a good few years.

    The interesting question for me is whether those are the ideals of the Tory Party or the "ideals" of the dreadful lot who have taken it over.

    It is possible that a "comfort" leader of the kind you describe could *also* be the reformer who strips away the liars and the charlatans and gets them back to a core set of values of public service and administrative competence on which they could build.
    But, as with Mr Corbyn, would one want to take the risk?

    Edit: I mean, would the ordinary voters vote for that? (For their very varied reasons.)
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,986
    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    Incredible.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    The names in the header only add up to 63%. In truth it's wide open.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    I agree Johnson now remains in post as Tory leader and PM until the next general election unless the polls drastically change.

    Though Wallace now has better net ratings than Sunak in terms of the next Tory leader when Johnson does eventually go

    It depends on Ukraine and whether a solution is achieved at which point there is a possibility he could decide to retire to the international speaker circuit, feted in Ukraine, and certainly box office for many

    Boris is a one off politician who frankly is bored with day to day politics and does not do detail as we all know

    I am not suggesting he won't lead but it is not 100% certain
    TSE had it right ages ago that Bozo wishes to be remember for multiple reasons including the length of tenure as PM.

    Which means that he wants to survive longer than May, longer than Brown and ideally longer than Cameron.

    That latter one is going to depend on (I suspect) not the likelihood of the Tories winning the next election but Bozo winning Uxbridge
    My reading, based on only modest acquaintance, is that he loves fighting elections and winning, but governing is less fun. Despite the latter, I don't see placidly standing down for the cocktail circuit as in his nature. As the revered Mandelson would say, he's a fighter not a quitter.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986

    tlg86 said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    And he answered that well. That is, it might not always be obvious when someone is transitioning etc. etc.

    I do think it's ridiculous to pretend that men have babies. They don't. Anyone having a baby is a mother.
    Pretty well every health-related form I've filled in over the past few years has had the pregnancy question on it. It's either include it or have multiple forms. Which, surely, increases the chances of error or loss!
    You need to declare whether you are pregnant to claim Universal Credit too.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141
    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    Thinking about the types of leaders who have tended to take over a party after it has lost power, they often seem to be those that make a party feel good about itself - i.e. we lost because we weren't true enough to our ideals.

    So, in the scenario that the next leadership election occurs while Starmer is considering whether he can tolerate the wallpaper in No 10, we have to consider who would make the Tories feel good about themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone like Steve Baker, would be the leader who would let the Tories avoid facing up to why they lost for a good few years.

    The interesting question for me is whether those are the ideals of the Tory Party or the "ideals" of the dreadful lot who have taken it over.

    It is possible that a "comfort" leader of the kind you describe could *also* be the reformer who strips away the liars and the charlatans and gets them back to a core set of values of public service and administrative competence on which they could build.
    But, as with Mr Corbyn, would one want to take the risk?
    I guess the question is whether they think they can get away with "Having now got access to all the information kept from us, we, the political wing of the great British public [(c) Tony Blair] have been lied to. We are mucking out the stables etc."

    Doesn't even need to be a pre-leadership-election position.

    Touch of the John XXIII.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lay the favourite!

    (Except when the favourite was Boris Johnson....)
    Yeah, whoops.

    Thankfully the losses on that one, were outweighed by the profits on backing May at 10/1 a couple of years earlier!

    I think Sunak had a narrow window of opportunity, which has passed now that war, pandemic and birthday cake talk has been replaced by inflation and cost of living talk.
    Sunak's time has come (and has now gone). He won't however be removed from No 11 in a hurry because someone has to cop the blame for the pain that is about to arrive...
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482

    HYUFD said:

    I agree Johnson now remains in post as Tory leader and PM until the next general election unless the polls drastically change.

    Though Wallace now has better net ratings than Sunak in terms of the next Tory leader when Johnson does eventually go

    It depends on Ukraine and whether a solution is achieved at which point there is a possibility he could decide to retire to the international speaker circuit, feted in Ukraine, and certainly box office for many

    Boris is a one off politician who frankly is bored with day to day politics and does not do detail as we all know

    I am not suggesting he won't lead but it is not 100% certain
    "Leave them wanting more" is always sound advice for a performer, though it's hard to think of many (any?) successful politicians who follow it. You don't get to the top without a ruthless desire to be (and remain) at the top.

    So as with Labour and Brown, the failure of the coup means the Conservatives are stuck with Johnson.

    The only way I see him going is if he gets fed up with being booed. Unlikely, but not impossible if the economic projections are even half right. And if things are that bad, who takes over?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    Badger watching, in all its forms, has always been a thing AIUI.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,709
    What she wrote:

    It is one of the key differences between the gay rights movement & the extremist trans one now. Gay rights activists argued for their position. They persuaded & convinced & showed. They did not assert & try to shut down.
    This comparison is such a false, dishonest & dangerous one.


    https://twitter.com/Cyclefree2/status/1509077046475071495
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    "Told the truth to the best of his ability" is a less convincing euphemism than special military operation.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    Don't want to be unkind. But that sounds old fashioned. Plenty folk do that. My brother met his wife like that. They are in their fifties.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449
    dixiedean said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    They (see it comes in useful) also admit to having been raped, suffering from PTSD and fleeing the scene of an accident. Super brave on multiple fronts.
    Useful, dixie, but I still winced to see an individual described as 'they'.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    tlg86 said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    And he answered that well. That is, it might not always be obvious when someone is transitioning etc. etc.

    I do think it's ridiculous to pretend that men have babies. They don't. Anyone having a baby is a mother.
    Pretty well every health-related form I've filled in over the past few years has had the pregnancy question on it. It's either include it or have multiple forms. Which, surely, increases the chances of error or loss!
    ISTR I was asked if I was pregnant when I went for a vasectomy.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,709
    File under, “No sh*t, Sherlock

    UKRAINE PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER SAYS RUSSIA TRANSFERRING FORCES FROM NORTH OF UKRAINE TO EASTERN UKRAINE TO ENCIRCLE OUR TROOPS

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1509078540804927495

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    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    Raab. PM told the truth "to the best of his ability."
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    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    I seriously hope that he/she/they have the support network they claim. They seem in a very dark place and it will not be easy to get out of it.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I dunno about that. Most people now meet partners on the internet. Lots of first-time MPs (typically in the 30s and 40s - Wallis is 38) don't have permanently settled relationships or the ones they thought they have broken up. What do we expect them to do, take up stamp collecting?

    The phrase "hook up" perhaps suggests casual sex rather than serious seeking of a relationship, but I'm not sure that today's Britain will feel especially critical of an unmarried MP having some casual sex while they ponder what sort of relationship they want.

    Which prompts the idle question: what sort of things apart from outright crime would deter us from voting for a candidate, if they represented our preferred parties?
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    DavidL said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    I seriously hope that he/she/they have the support network they claim. They seem in a very dark place and it will not be easy to get out of it.
    Indeed.
    But the first step can often be being open about it. They seem to have decided to put everything out there at once.
    I wish the best of luck.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,709
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.
    I’d have thought the internet would be the safest and most discrete way for the parties involved to get in contact.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I dunno about that. Most people now meet partners on the internet. Lots of first-time MPs (typically in the 30s and 40s - Wallis is 38) don't have permanently settled relationships or the ones they thought they have broken up. What do we expect them to do, take up stamp collecting?

    The phrase "hook up" perhaps suggests casual sex rather than serious seeking of a relationship, but I'm not sure that today's Britain will feel especially critical of an unmarried MP having some casual sex while they ponder what sort of relationship they want.

    Which prompts the idle question: what sort of things apart from outright crime would deter us from voting for a candidate, if they represented our preferred parties?
    Habitual and unashamed liar is one.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    That's weird, how did a post from the 1950s appear in todays thread?
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I dunno about that. Most people now meet partners on the internet. Lots of first-time MPs (typically in the 30s and 40s - Wallis is 38) don't have permanently settled relationships or the ones they thought they have broken up. What do we expect them to do, take up stamp collecting?

    The phrase "hook up" perhaps suggests casual sex rather than serious seeking of a relationship, but I'm not sure that today's Britain will feel especially critical of an unmarried MP having some casual sex while they ponder what sort of relationship they want.

    Which prompts the idle question: what sort of things apart from outright crime would deter us from voting for a candidate, if they represented our preferred parties?
    Habitual and unashamed liar is one.
    Corrupt and overly muscular.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Seeking aid and assistance from Putin is another...

    Trump brazenly asks Putin to release dirt about Biden's family
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/politics/trump-putin-hunter-biden/index.html

    (Note this is now, during the Ukraine war, not an old story.)
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,171
    Translated from the latest changelog file of https://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/The-War-in-Ukraine/091194

    March 29-30
    In the direction of Kharkov more counterattack
    In the eastern part of Chernihiv, there are no longer any signs of Russian military activity, the Russian front has been moved to adapt to the river line from which the Russians blew up bridges, based on our analysis and information from locals.

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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    That's weird, how did a post from the 1950s appear in todays thread?
    Yes, I know, and I feel ridiculous saying it. I'm not against people hooking up on the internet. But there's a lot of things which fall into the category of 'things I'm not against' and also the category of 'things I don't expect MPs to do'.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,292
    mwadams said:

    Thinking about the types of leaders who have tended to take over a party after it has lost power, they often seem to be those that make a party feel good about itself - i.e. we lost because we weren't true enough to our ideals.

    So, in the scenario that the next leadership election occurs while Starmer is considering whether he can tolerate the wallpaper in No 10, we have to consider who would make the Tories feel good about themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone like Steve Baker, would be the leader who would let the Tories avoid facing up to why they lost for a good few years.

    The interesting question for me is whether those are the ideals of the Tory Party or the "ideals" of the dreadful lot who have taken it over.

    It is possible that a "comfort" leader of the kind you describe could *also* be the reformer who strips away the liars and the charlatans and gets them back to a core set of values of public service and administrative competence on which they could build.
    Yes. I was implicitly assuming that the reverse-takeover of the Tories by UKIP was complete and irrevocable.

    Certainly looks that way from the outside, but some of the current Tory members, such as HYUFD, might know differently...
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    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,644
    dixiedean said:

    Raab. PM told the truth "to the best of his ability."

    Seeing as he isn't that able at most things that isn't a high bar.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    That's weird, how did a post from the 1950s appear in todays thread?
    Yes, I know, and I feel ridiculous saying it. I'm not against people hooking up on the internet. But there's a lot of things which fall into the category of 'things I'm not against' and also the category of 'things I don't expect MPs to do'.
    Fair enough, I suppose I am not against MPs refusing bribes from contacts of hostile dictators, but I don't expect them all to refuse them.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,220

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.
    I’d have thought the internet would be the safest and most discrete way for the parties involved to get in contact.
    I am surprised the MP for Bridgend wasn't more internet savvy, as his Wikipedia page states he was allegedly ( my caveat) a co-owner of a "Sugar Daddies" dating website. That in itself, should it be true, is repellent to me. His previous "business" career is also, shall we say, interesting.

    If on the other hand his story rings true, the best of luck to him.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
    Well yes, and I chose my words carefully - I'm not necessarily disapproving, it just doesn't fit with my idea of how an MP lives. In my head, MPs have significantly less chaotic lives than average; are considerably more settled. And I would have thought there would be more risks, rather than less, with hooking up with strangers on the internet than the more traditional meet-some-junior-party-worker route, where at least you have an idea of the individual's background.

    I suppose this isn't new - Harvey Proctor, Mark Oaten and that Labour MP from East London with the colourful private life from the post-war era all spring to mind. Only the technology is different.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141
    edited March 2022

    mwadams said:

    Thinking about the types of leaders who have tended to take over a party after it has lost power, they often seem to be those that make a party feel good about itself - i.e. we lost because we weren't true enough to our ideals.

    So, in the scenario that the next leadership election occurs while Starmer is considering whether he can tolerate the wallpaper in No 10, we have to consider who would make the Tories feel good about themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion that someone like Steve Baker, would be the leader who would let the Tories avoid facing up to why they lost for a good few years.

    The interesting question for me is whether those are the ideals of the Tory Party or the "ideals" of the dreadful lot who have taken it over.

    It is possible that a "comfort" leader of the kind you describe could *also* be the reformer who strips away the liars and the charlatans and gets them back to a core set of values of public service and administrative competence on which they could build.
    Yes. I was implicitly assuming that the reverse-takeover of the Tories by UKIP was complete and irrevocable.

    Certainly looks that way from the outside, but some of the current Tory members, such as HYUFD, might know differently...
    I think it might be - I certainly don't see myself re-joining in the next 20 years, and I'll be pushing 70 by then. Unlike the Corbynite insurgency, where pretty much everyone else in Labour hung on in there.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    It could actually help make a complicated issue become less of a political football, so well done Jamie Wallis. It will still be too electorally attractive for the Tories to ignore but they may end up being less polarising than they would have otherwise been.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,579
    edited March 2022
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I think that the experience of the last 25 years of the shenanigans in Parliaments buries that one stone dead, surely? And that's dating it after 'Back to Basics'.

    Has anyone kept a count of cases / incidents?

    I'll give him a hell of a lot of credit for going through acceptable routes rather than trying to exploit his position of power with his staff or constituents.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
    Well yes, and I chose my words carefully - I'm not necessarily disapproving, it just doesn't fit with my idea of how an MP lives. In my head, MPs have significantly less chaotic lives than average; are considerably more settled. And I would have thought there would be more risks, rather than less, with hooking up with strangers on the internet than the more traditional meet-some-junior-party-worker route, where at least you have an idea of the individual's background.

    I suppose this isn't new - Harvey Proctor, Mark Oaten and that Labour MP from East London with the colourful private life from the post-war era all spring to mind. Only the technology is different.
    Successful politicians at the national level are far more inclined to take risks than your average person, as are business leaders or sportspeople. Also more self obsessed.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.
    I’d have thought the internet would be the safest and most discrete way for the parties involved to get in contact.
    I am surprised the MP for Bridgend wasn't more internet savvy, as his Wikipedia page states he was allegedly ( my caveat) a co-owner of a "Sugar Daddies" dating website. That in itself, should it be true, is repellent to me. His previous "business" career is also, shall we say, interesting.

    If on the other hand his story rings true, the best of luck to him.
    Someone who crashes a car into a lamppost, does a runner and subsequently claims it was because of PTSD, is someone whose word I would accept implicitly on any subject.

    Everything else about his life as per wikipedia also screams "absolute veracity."
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,644

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    Yeah but they aren't are they. I have been in twice during the pandemic (broken leg, paralyzed vocal cord) and nobody asked me. I might have filled in generic forms, but doh they are generic. I guess you will be asked if there could be any doubt eg transitioning, 12 year old girl, etc, but then the hospital needs to make sure.

    Honestly this imagined woke stuff is just that- imagined.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449
    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    Don't want to be unkind. But that sounds old fashioned. Plenty folk do that. My brother met his wife like that. They are in their fifties.
    Yes, it does sound old-fashioned - and in a roundabout way it's sort of how I met my wife. I'm not necessarily disapproving. It just doesn't seem to fit. Apart from anything else, you wouldn't really expect anyone in the public eye to be there on an internet dating or hookup site.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
    Well yes, and I chose my words carefully - I'm not necessarily disapproving, it just doesn't fit with my idea of how an MP lives. In my head, MPs have significantly less chaotic lives than average; are considerably more settled. And I would have thought there would be more risks, rather than less, with hooking up with strangers on the internet than the more traditional meet-some-junior-party-worker route, where at least you have an idea of the individual's background.

    I suppose this isn't new - Harvey Proctor, Mark Oaten and that Labour MP from East London with the colourful private life from the post-war era all spring to mind. Only the technology is different.
    I would have thought MPs lives are more chaotic than the norm split as they are between 2 workplaces and at least 2 homes, and mostly tending to be some distance from each other
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I dunno about that. Most people now meet partners on the internet. Lots of first-time MPs (typically in the 30s and 40s - Wallis is 38) don't have permanently settled relationships or the ones they thought they have broken up. What do we expect them to do, take up stamp collecting?

    The phrase "hook up" perhaps suggests casual sex rather than serious seeking of a relationship, but I'm not sure that today's Britain will feel especially critical of an unmarried MP having some casual sex while they ponder what sort of relationship they want.

    Which prompts the idle question: what sort of things apart from outright crime would deter us from voting for a candidate, if they represented our preferred parties?
    Brexit? 🤣🤣🤣
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,709
    edited March 2022

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis.
    How do you know that?

    Was that part of his statement?

    What was part of his statement was his experience of rape. One of the "transphobic" (sic) concerns of natal women and self-ID.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    That's weird, how did a post from the 1950s appear in todays thread?
    Let's do the timewarp again!
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    kjh said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    Yeah but they aren't are they. I have been in twice during the pandemic (broken leg, paralyzed vocal cord) and nobody asked me. I might have filled in generic forms, but doh they are generic. I guess you will be asked if there could be any doubt eg transitioning, 12 year old girl, etc, but then the hospital needs to make sure.

    Honestly this imagined woke stuff is just that- imagined.
    Even if they are being asked, deliberately rather than generically, in some places, whats the big deal? It may not be how most people would layout a form, but it is a pretty easy question for us men to answer quickly and with certainty.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,412
    edited March 2022
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
    Well yes, and I chose my words carefully - I'm not necessarily disapproving, it just doesn't fit with my idea of how an MP lives. In my head, MPs have significantly less chaotic lives than average; are considerably more settled. And I would have thought there would be more risks, rather than less, with hooking up with strangers on the internet than the more traditional meet-some-junior-party-worker route, where at least you have an idea of the individual's background.

    I suppose this isn't new - Harvey Proctor, Mark Oaten and that Labour MP from East London with the colourful private life from the post-war era all spring to mind. Only the technology is different.
    Hooking up with strangers on the internet can be risky in there's an outside chance they are serial killers but it is surely a damn sight more efficient than most alternatives. Both parties are up for it, whatever "it" is, including marriage on the more mainstream sites, and there is no risk of harassment charges from pestering that cute work colleague for a date.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    wHicH tOiLEt wiLl tHEy uSE?
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,412

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis.
    How do you know that?

    Was that part of his statement?

    What was part of his statement was his experience of rape. One of the "transphobic" (sic) concerns of natal women and self-ID.
    The statement is at: https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022

    It includes: "I’m trans. Or to be more accurate, I want to be." Read into that what you will.


  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,770
    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    Should they be used as political jokes to bash Starmer with?
  • Options
    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    I have no problem with anything you have just posted. Its just that your position is not the Tory position which is trying to go to town over Starmer saying a woman can have a penis.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,644
    FPT @NickPalmer asked about others experience of GP appointments.

    I am very healthy but at the height of the pandemic I had a paralyzed vocal cord which could have been very serious (cancer). It wasn't. And more recently broken my legs.

    I have nothing but praise for my GP and the NHS. No issue with face to face appointments. I was straight in with the vocal cord, camera down my throat and MRI all within 2 weeks. Re my leg I made a non urgent appointment with the GP just to get the physio stuff organised in advance. Face to face appointment on the day I called.

    I guess I am very lucky ( other than with the injuries obviously)
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    The Germany energy ministry has just urged every household and business in the country to use as little gas as possible ahead of a Kremlin deadline for EU firms to pay their bills in rubles by tomorrow. /1

    There is no sign that Germany will comply with Putin's ultimatum, even though Russia has explicitly said it will turn off the taps unless Gazprom and other state-owned energy companies receive payment in rubles. /2


    https://twitter.com/olivernmoody/status/1509065487484952584

    Have we had an official apology from GDR Merkel for her 16 years as Chancellor ?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    MPs are people. Why can't they do legal things like internet dating like anyone else?
    Well yes, and I chose my words carefully - I'm not necessarily disapproving, it just doesn't fit with my idea of how an MP lives. In my head, MPs have significantly less chaotic lives than average; are considerably more settled. And I would have thought there would be more risks, rather than less, with hooking up with strangers on the internet than the more traditional meet-some-junior-party-worker route, where at least you have an idea of the individual's background.

    I suppose this isn't new - Harvey Proctor, Mark Oaten and that Labour MP from East London with the colourful private life from the post-war era all spring to mind. Only the technology is different.
    I would have thought MPs lives are more chaotic than the norm split as they are between 2 workplaces and at least 2 homes, and mostly tending to be some distance from each other
    Good point.
  • Options

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis.
    How do you know that?

    Was that part of his statement?

    What was part of his statement was his experience of rape. One of the "transphobic" (sic) concerns of natal women and self-ID.
    He said "I want to be trans" and has been diagnosed as having gender disphoria. So yes, he wants to transition to living as a woman - that's what his statement says. Like a said, a woman who is biologically male like my friend Lauren.

    So, the Tory attack on Starmer for saying a woman can have a penis...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    I have no problem with anything you have just posted. Its just that your position is not the Tory position which is trying to go to town over Starmer saying a woman can have a penis.
    This guy is not a woman with a penis, he has gender dysphoria and is thinking of transitioning.

    Or so he says. And when a fat Tory says a thing, I take that thing to be true. What do you do?

    No sense of cards being played here. No, sirree.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    Don't want to be unkind. But that sounds old fashioned. Plenty folk do that. My brother met his wife like that. They are in their fifties.
    Yes, it does sound old-fashioned - and in a roundabout way it's sort of how I met my wife. I'm not necessarily disapproving. It just doesn't seem to fit. Apart from anything else, you wouldn't really expect anyone in the public eye to be there on an internet dating or hookup site.
    Could be a way of spreading the gene pool (even) wider.

    Declared interest; the girl who became Mrs C and I met at college. From widely different parts of the country.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,412

    kjh said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    Yeah but they aren't are they. I have been in twice during the pandemic (broken leg, paralyzed vocal cord) and nobody asked me. I might have filled in generic forms, but doh they are generic. I guess you will be asked if there could be any doubt eg transitioning, 12 year old girl, etc, but then the hospital needs to make sure.

    Honestly this imagined woke stuff is just that- imagined.
    Even if they are being asked, deliberately rather than generically, in some places, whats the big deal? It may not be how most people would layout a form, but it is a pretty easy question for us men to answer quickly and with certainty.
    Wandering off-topic, an old complaint about computers is that some idiot has transcribed paper forms question for question onto an automated system. On paper, it is easy for users to sidestep sections that don't fit, while on a computer, you just have to plough through them.
  • Options
    AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    Should they be used as political jokes to bash Starmer with?
    I don't think it's OK for jokes to be targeted at people. I do think it's OK for jokes to be targeted at ridiculous use of language, such as defaulting to people being "assigned" their sex at birth, as if it was the whim of a doctor.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
  • Options
    AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis.
    How do you know that?

    Was that part of his statement?

    What was part of his statement was his experience of rape. One of the "transphobic" (sic) concerns of natal women and self-ID.
    He said "I want to be trans" and has been diagnosed as having gender disphoria. So yes, he wants to transition to living as a woman - that's what his statement says. Like a said, a woman who is biologically male like my friend Lauren.

    So, the Tory attack on Starmer for saying a woman can have a penis...
    Do you have the quotes of the attack?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,644

    kjh said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    Yeah but they aren't are they. I have been in twice during the pandemic (broken leg, paralyzed vocal cord) and nobody asked me. I might have filled in generic forms, but doh they are generic. I guess you will be asked if there could be any doubt eg transitioning, 12 year old girl, etc, but then the hospital needs to make sure.

    Honestly this imagined woke stuff is just that- imagined.
    Even if they are being asked, deliberately rather than generically, in some places, whats the big deal? It may not be how most people would layout a form, but it is a pretty easy question for us men to answer quickly and with certainty.
    I agree. I put my daughter on the car insurance and having answered some questions some of the following ones were consequently nonsense, but I didn't get upset. There is a script for entering into the computer. On the contrary I took it as an opportunity to have a laugh with the person on the other end of the phone who also enjoyed the joke.

    Those that get offended need to get a life.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Turned out that Blair was wrong, re WMD in Iraq. But did he actually know that there were none?

    Note; for the avoidance of doubt, I was against the war and think our handling of the Middle East has been shambolic mess since 1917.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis.
    How do you know that?

    Was that part of his statement?

    What was part of his statement was his experience of rape. One of the "transphobic" (sic) concerns of natal women and self-ID.
    He said "I want to be trans" and has been diagnosed as having gender disphoria. So yes, he wants to transition to living as a woman - that's what his statement says. Like a said, a woman who is biologically male like my friend Lauren.

    So, the Tory attack on Starmer for saying a woman can have a penis...
    He has form for lying about modish maladies to get out of holes

    To get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, you know what you do? You go to a doctor and say Doctor, I have gender dysphoria. C'est tout. It's not like there's an objective correlative that gets picked up on an MRI scan.

    He is a tory MP.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    IshmaelZ said:

    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    I have no problem with anything you have just posted. Its just that your position is not the Tory position which is trying to go to town over Starmer saying a woman can have a penis.
    This guy is not a woman with a penis, he has gender dysphoria and is thinking of transitioning.

    Or so he says. And when a fat Tory says a thing, I take that thing to be true. What do you do?

    No sense of cards being played here. No, sirree.
    The FLSOJ excepted, it’s the feckers with a lean and hungry look I worry about most.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Turned out that Blair was wrong, re WMD in Iraq. But did he actually know that there were none?

    Note; for the avoidance of doubt, I was against the war and think our handling of the Middle East has been shambolic mess since 1917.
    I don't think anyone knew. Saddam didn't know. Just as neither Putin nor the CIA knew how fucked the Russian army was 5 weeks ago. At the time I was objecting violently, but what I was saying was Of course they are there but we have to wait for Blixy to find them, because due process is what we do.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,130
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Genuine question, what is the current official Tory party position on the Iraq war in which they were so complicit?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    He made a knowledge and belief statement on the basis of questionable evidence. Not the same thing.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,412
    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Some Tories rapidly back-pedalling on transphobia.

    What a woke party!

    This Tory MP is about to become a woman with a penis. Surely - as Starmer was so terribly wrong accepting such a monstrosity - the Big Dog will have to condemn this deviant and expel him from the party?

    Considering the modernist approach of Cameron in accepting LD proposals on gay marriage and rights its really shameful that the Tory party has collapsed into the sewer like this so spectacularly.

    If it was a moral crusade I could at least understand it. But it isn't. They have no real view on women with willies, they just think they can whip up the issue in the minds of voters they sneeringly consider to be small-minded idiots.
    This all sounds like the left wing misunderstanding the centre rights issues with immigration all over again. Just because people object to self ID and the denial of a biological basis to gender doesn't mean they hate all trans people as deviants. I think a trans woman should not be able to access all women's spaces just because they declare themselves women. I also think that people with gender dysphoria deserve our sympathy, support and, if necessary, the backing of the NHS to physically transition. These are not inconsistent positions.
    Should they be used as political jokes to bash Starmer with?
    I don't think it's OK for jokes to be targeted at people. I do think it's OK for jokes to be targeted at ridiculous use of language, such as defaulting to people being "assigned" their sex at birth, as if it was the whim of a doctor.
    Sex is assigned at birth at the whim of a doctor.

    Well, more or less, and only in extreme corner cases. I knew a man with a micro-penis. At another time, he might have had surgery and been raised as a girl.

    That is also the trouble with the trans debate. A lot of angst about edge cases. Most trans women don't rape people in the ladies'. Nor, so far as I can tell, do most cis male rapists.
This discussion has been closed.