The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
Charles de Gaulle will be alluded to when he says the Russian tanks have conked out.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
'they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State'
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
Awful scanning: "I-I vow... t'thee my cou-untry..."
Should have got W.S.Gilbert to write the lyrics, at least they'd have scanned (and been funnier). (Ok, so he was dead but a dead WSG would have been better than Sir Cecil Spring Pancake Rice.)
Plus, ridiculous sentiments. "...her shining bounds increase, ...and all her paths are peace" Er, how to those two work ? Empire-building by peace offensive?
Apart from that - great choice.
We should confuse the hell out of everybody and choose Jerusalem the Golden, in its full version (which so clearly confuses England and Heaven in Neale's translation that the first half is almost never sung now).
that aside, it is a grand tune. Far better than Jerusalem which is one of Parry's weaker and less interesting efforts.
If we have to go with Parry at least have something rousing like I Was Glad.
Jerusalem the golden, With milk and honey blest, Beneath thy contemplation Sink heart and voice oppressed.
And so on for about 20 verses of the sort of paranoid euphoria I associate with class A psychedelics. Strange poem.
This is the original opening:
For thee, O dear, dear country, Mine eyes their vigils keep; For very love, beholding Thy happy name, they weep; The mention of thy glory Is unction to the breast, And medicine in sickness, And love, and life, and rest.
O one, O only mansion, O Paradise of joy! Where tears are ever banished, And smiles have no alloy; The Cross is all thy splendor, The Crucified thy praise; His laud and benediction Thy ransomed people raise.
Thou hast no shore, fair ocean; Thou hast no time, bright day; Dear fountain of refreshment To pilgrims far away! Upon the Rock of Ages They raise thy holy tower; Thine is the victor's laurel, And thine the golden dower.
O sweet and blessèd country, The home of God's elect; O sweet and blessèd country, That eager hearts expect! Jesus, in mercy bring us, To that dear land of rest, Who art, with God the Father And Spirit, ever blest.
Thou hast no shore, fair ocean; Thou hast no time, bright day;
is absolutely a trip report from a dreary subreddit about drugs.
What would the 'fountain of refreshment' stand for in this metaphor?
It anticipates my idea of adding an extravagant 'Boris Jet' to the Swansea Tidal Barrage.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
They certainly need to change the current anthem . Can’t we have a totally new one. Something uplifting.
Billy Connolly suggested the theme to The Archers once.
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
'they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State'
Ha, I'd forgotten that there's a Moscow in Ayrshire.
I hope the targeting computer on the Trident subs doesn't simply pick the first Moscow on an alphabetical list. "Moscow, Ayrshire" would come before "Moscow, Russia"...
I think he's more likely to have joined in with the people blaming NATO for provoking Russia.
Didn't Corbyn attend and speak at the 'Stop the War' event that the 11 labour MPs puled out off? the one where the man with a Ukrainian flag was man handled out.
Ha, I'd forgotten that there's a Moscow in Ayrshire.
I hope the targeting computer on the Trident subs doesn't simply pick the first Moscow on an alphabetical list. "Moscow, Ayrshire" would come before "Moscow, Russia"...
Fecking 30 second warning wouldn't cover it. Maybe for the best..
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Telegraph: Russia has been forced to retreat and call in extra troops a month into its invasion, according to Ukraine's military.
In an update on Tuesday, the general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces said Russia had suffered "large, irreversible” losses of personnel, including among its command.
The update said that following a counter-attack launched by Ukrainian forces in the south, "the enemy is compelled to retreat to unfavourable borders" towards Mykolaiv, a city near the Black Sea.
Officials added: "Having lost its offensive potential, the Russian occupation forces continue to form and move reserves from the depths of the Russian Federation to the borders of Ukraine."
It comes after Ukrainian troops regained the strategically important Kyiv suburb of Makariv early on Tuesday, retaking control of a key highway and blocking Russian troops from surrounding the city from the north-west.
Unless anyone can find a source to say otherwise, the casualty number for the Mariupol Theatre strike currently stands at zero. 130 people are said to have emerged unharmed, and the 'thousands' sheltering in the basement appear not to have been there at all. That's 3 for the hospital atrocity and none for the theatre atrocity. This is what I mean when I say 'the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
'they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a hypocritical prick to be their Head of State'
Is electing same as pm better?
Well, people can fall back on technicality ansd say that they didn't elect the PM, they voted for that nice local MP, so it is not their fault. Doesn't hold up, but gives some mental distance.
On the speech bingo, I think MattW is right French Resistance is a dead cert, but I'm less sure that Saint Joan will get a reference, bit too distant.
I do like the idea that Zelensky's speechwriter is frantically checking wikipedia the night before each speech to get the best allusions for each parliament.
French retailer Leroy Merlin announced that they were expanding in Russia to benefit from other brands pulling out. This was the Ukrainian Defence Ministry's response:
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
Awful scanning: "I-I vow... t'thee my cou-untry..."
Should have got W.S.Gilbert to write the lyrics, at least they'd have scanned (and been funnier). (Ok, so he was dead but a dead WSG would have been better than Sir Cecil Spring Pancake Rice.)
Plus, ridiculous sentiments. "...her shining bounds increase, ...and all her paths are peace" Er, how to those two work ? Empire-building by peace offensive?
Apart from that - great choice.
We should confuse the hell out of everybody and choose Jerusalem the Golden, in its full version (which so clearly confuses England and Heaven in Neale's translation that the first half is almost never sung now).
that aside, it is a grand tune. Far better than Jerusalem which is one of Parry's weaker and less interesting efforts.
If we have to go with Parry at least have something rousing like I Was Glad.
Jerusalem the golden, With milk and honey blest, Beneath thy contemplation Sink heart and voice oppressed.
And so on for about 20 verses of the sort of paranoid euphoria I associate with class A psychedelics. Strange poem.
This is the original opening:
For thee, O dear, dear country, Mine eyes their vigils keep; For very love, beholding Thy happy name, they weep; The mention of thy glory Is unction to the breast, And medicine in sickness, And love, and life, and rest.
O one, O only mansion, O Paradise of joy! Where tears are ever banished, And smiles have no alloy; The Cross is all thy splendor, The Crucified thy praise; His laud and benediction Thy ransomed people raise.
Thou hast no shore, fair ocean; Thou hast no time, bright day; Dear fountain of refreshment To pilgrims far away! Upon the Rock of Ages They raise thy holy tower; Thine is the victor's laurel, And thine the golden dower.
O sweet and blessèd country, The home of God's elect; O sweet and blessèd country, That eager hearts expect! Jesus, in mercy bring us, To that dear land of rest, Who art, with God the Father And Spirit, ever blest.
Thou hast no shore, fair ocean; Thou hast no time, bright day;
is absolutely a trip report from a dreary subreddit about drugs.
Thou hast no shore, fair ocean; Thou hast no time, bright day; Up above the streets and houses, Rainbow climbing high?
Ha, I'd forgotten that there's a Moscow in Ayrshire.
I hope the targeting computer on the Trident subs doesn't simply pick the first Moscow on an alphabetical list. "Moscow, Ayrshire" would come before "Moscow, Russia"...
Fecking 30 second warning wouldn't cover it. Maybe for the best..
Turns out that there are a couple of Moscows in Arkansas and Alabama, so given the number of warheads on a Trident sub these days it'll probably be fine.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
All of which is true, and which, coupled to the terrible tune, is why it should not be the national anthem.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
Ha, I'd forgotten that there's a Moscow in Ayrshire.
I hope the targeting computer on the Trident subs doesn't simply pick the first Moscow on an alphabetical list. "Moscow, Ayrshire" would come before "Moscow, Russia"...
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
It is utterly astounding that the Russians, who liberated Auschwitz, are now killing 90 year old camp survivors in their own homes.
We must never forget this new crime. It is one for the ages.
No way back for Russian for a generation after this.
So you blame all the Russian people then, not the regime.
“ No way back for Russian for a generation after this. “.
I couldn’t disagree with you more, to be honest. You are entitled to your opinion, but your Cold War with Navalny and Solidarnost is bonkers, count me out.
As far as I can see, Lada is a historic Russian company owned by Renault. It uses technology shared with Dacia, Renaults other budget brand. It cannot be easily severed or spun off in the way that professional services companies have been able to do with their Russian operations. I am not that sure what Renault are supposed to do exactly. It is a massive operation that employs lots of people. They've had about 3 weeks to make a decision. It surely isn't a simple issue. It isn't like McDonalds and Ikea just closing down their stores and carrying on paying their staff for a while, like it were another Covid lockdown. Or an oil company running in to geopolitical turbulence, which the industry is very familiar with. I am not trying to defend the 'evil french', but these are surely hellishly complex decisions, and I don't envy the people involved.
On the French critique, they are only getting a bit of stick because they elected a prick to be their Head of State, who does not know when to button it.
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
Castillon 1/10
Agincourt 100/1
Those odds are just Crécy.
I think he'll keep it general though, and not go into the detail of tory Sluys
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Mission Praise is British.
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now .
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
Putin's played a blinder today. He's managed to get almost all the PB cognoscenti to transfer their wrath and fury from him and his army to Macron and the French. Clever.
In the immortal words of Kenny Everett, "let's bomb Paris". Or something like that.
Are you suggesting Macron is in cahoots with Putin?
No.
I've always found the anti-French rhetoric on PB quite unpleasant, and it's really the only thing that turns me off this forum. I know some of it is in jest, but sadly some of it isn't, and quite a few posters seem to have a vitriolic and irrational dislike of everything and everybody French.
On the specific issue, it sounds like the French deserve criticism. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, in due course, we discover that several international and multinational companies are still trading or doing some sort of dealings with Russia, including some in the UK. I'll bet there's still UK money washing around in Moscow (as well as Russian money washing around in London), but we may never know as it wouldn't be high profile like Renault.
Aren't the UK getting Russian oil till the end of the year? That's nine months!
3% - how much is France and Germany getting and for how many years, not months
Still. The sooner he is Prime Minister the better for us all.
Should he instruct his wife to sell her investments in Indian companies that are still trading in Russia?
Oh my goodness that is a good question Blanche. Was he asked this in his pre statement interviews?
Let me put my Malcolm Tucker head on…
Bloody hell, what is the answer? He is hardly in a position to throw stones at Renault, France, or anyone, except do we know his family is breaking sanctions and benefitting from Putin money, we would have to be careful and sure, just because Mouldy is buying the oil doesn’t mean all Indian business in on the make?
Soon as someone posted the cartoon you are using as avatar I loved it. It’s one of the cartoons that really stand out. Like a banksy. 🙂
Putin's played a blinder today. He's managed to get almost all the PB cognoscenti to transfer their wrath and fury from him and his army to Macron and the French. Clever.
In the immortal words of Kenny Everett, "let's bomb Paris". Or something like that.
Are you suggesting Macron is in cahoots with Putin?
No.
I've always found the anti-French rhetoric on PB quite unpleasant, and it's really the only thing that turns me off this forum. I know some of it is in jest, but sadly some of it isn't, and quite a few posters seem to have a vitriolic and irrational dislike of everything and everybody French.
On the specific issue, it sounds like the French deserve criticism. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, in due course, we discover that several international and multinational companies are still trading or doing some sort of dealings with Russia, including some in the UK. I'll bet there's still UK money washing around in Moscow (as well as Russian money washing around in London), but we may never know as it wouldn't be high profile like Renault.
Aren't the UK getting Russian oil till the end of the year? That's nine months!
3% - how much is France and Germany getting and for how many years, not months
How in bed with Oligarch and Putin money were those other countries? Everyone’s compromised but in different ways. Boris was groomed by the largess of a Putin apologist and overruled the rejection of security advice and the rejection of the Lords committee on appointees to wrap his friend in ermine, Boris friend the Putin apologist, now a Lord of the realm.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Mission Praise is British.
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now .
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
As an atheist I find CoE hymns unremittingly dreary. I'd prefer my descent into Hell to be accompanied by a good rollicking Missa solemnis any day.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Mission Praise is British.
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now .
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
As an atheist I find CoE hymns unremittingly dreary. I'd prefer my descent into Hell to be accompanied by a good rollicking Missa solemnis any day.
Putin's played a blinder today. He's managed to get almost all the PB cognoscenti to transfer their wrath and fury from him and his army to Macron and the French. Clever.
In the immortal words of Kenny Everett, "let's bomb Paris". Or something like that.
Are you suggesting Macron is in cahoots with Putin?
No.
I've always found the anti-French rhetoric on PB quite unpleasant, and it's really the only thing that turns me off this forum. I know some of it is in jest, but sadly some of it isn't, and quite a few posters seem to have a vitriolic and irrational dislike of everything and everybody French.
On the specific issue, it sounds like the French deserve criticism. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, in due course, we discover that several international and multinational companies are still trading or doing some sort of dealings with Russia, including some in the UK. I'll bet there's still UK money washing around in Moscow (as well as Russian money washing around in London), but we may never know as it wouldn't be high profile like Renault.
Aren't the UK getting Russian oil till the end of the year? That's nine months!
3% - how much is France and Germany getting and for how many years, not months
How in bed with Oligarch and Putin money were those other countries? Everyone’s compromised but in different ways. Boris was groomed by the largess of a Putin apologist and overruled the rejection of security advice and the rejection of the Lords committee on appointees to wrap his friend in ermine, Boris friend the Putin apologist, now a Lord of the realm.
Link that Boris overruled the House of Lords Committee?
Today's French Presidential polling shows Melenchon improving and a clear third in most polls as Valerie Pecresse sinks to around 10% and fifth place - she has managed to halve Fillon's vote which takes some doing.
It seems unlikely Melenchon will overhaul Le Pen for second but not impossible. Zemmour is out of contention now.
Still. The sooner he is Prime Minister the better for us all.
Should he instruct his wife to sell her investments in Indian companies that are still trading in Russia?
Oh my goodness that is a good question Blanche. Was he asked this in his pre statement interviews?
Let me put my Malcolm Tucker head on…
Bloody hell, what is the answer? He is hardly in a position to throw stones at Renault, France, or anyone, except do we know his family is breaking sanctions and benefitting from Putin money, we would have to be careful and sure, just because Mouldy is buying the oil doesn’t mean all Indian business in on the make?
Soon as someone posted the cartoon you are using as avatar I loved it. It’s one of the cartoons that really stand out. Like a banksy. 🙂
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
Frankly, I really don't see how "I vow to thee" puts country above God. The second verse seems to do the exact opposite.
It’s also directly critical of the nationalism of the first versus
Contrast:
“The love that never falters, the love that pays the price; the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice”
With
“You cannot count her armies, you may not see her King; her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride in suffering”
It’s clear that the author believes that Another Country is the better one
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
Awful scanning: "I-I vow... t'thee my cou-untry..."
Should have got W.S.Gilbert to write the lyrics, at least they'd have scanned (and been funnier). (Ok, so he was dead but a dead WSG would have been better than Sir Cecil Spring Pancake Rice.)
Plus, ridiculous sentiments. "...her shining bounds increase, ...and all her paths are peace" Er, how to those two work ? Empire-building by peace offensive?
Apart from that - great choice.
“And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase; her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace”
Did it occur to you that it’s an anti-imperialist hymn - contrasting the Kingdom of Heaven (“Another Country”) to the empire (“my country”)?
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
"Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down."
On PB? Don't hold your breath!
Though that WOULD be one way to (re)turn you blue . . .
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
How about a comment from you condemning the government for screwing up the sanctions and allowing the likes of Usmanov to protect their assets from sanctions?
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
No, loathing the UK and loathing "Boris" are not the same thing
A hatred of greed, dishonesty, corruption and self-cenredness is, as hatreds go, not the worst kind. You seem to have a kind of innate need to worship "Boris" which blinds you to principal actual qualities.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
How about a comment from you condemning the government for screwing up the sanctions and allowing the likes of Usmanov to protect their assets from sanctions?
I am content with UK action on sanctions and of course it was done by changing the law to ensure wealthy London lawyers did not manage to protect their clients interests
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
No, loathing the UK and loathing "Boris" are not the same thing
A hatred of greed, dishonesty, corruption and self-cenredness is, as hatreds go, not the worst kind. You seem to have a kind of innate need to worship "Boris" which blinds you to principal actual qualities.
Nonsense re Boris
I have been clear for months he needs to go and indeed have said so on many occasions
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
Your a more generous soul than me Pedro, he meets my expectations again and again.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
How about a comment from you condemning the government for screwing up the sanctions and allowing the likes of Usmanov to protect their assets from sanctions?
Abramovich’s fixer is not sanctioned either, so the government have got away so far with letting Abramovich off in the same way as they let Usmanov, the suffering of Chelsea fans just a smokescreen.
Question is why, why give them that breathing space, why frame the sanctions in such a way as to let the Oligarch’s, who paid them so much, off? 🤔.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
Neither of them are anti-UK. Would you listen to yourself. You've morphed into one of those UKIP frothers who see treachery in criticism.
I must be doing something right when those vested in the EU come out to divert attention from the actions of France
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Mission Praise is British.
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now .
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
As an atheist I find CoE hymns unremittingly dreary. I'd prefer my descent into Hell to be accompanied by a good rollicking Missa solemnis any day.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Mission Praise is British.
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now .
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
As an atheist I find CoE hymns unremittingly dreary. I'd prefer my descent into Hell to be accompanied by a good rollicking Missa solemnis any day.
TBH I think there is some stereotyping happening there. I don't think these days there is such a thing as a "CofE hymn".
I think the challenge with that one may be the size of the group to perform it? Though plenty of CofE places seem to have it from time to time. And there's an incredible variety, plus the unique way Psalms are chanted.
Have you ever tried the congregational harmony tradition of North European Protestants? I would not know where to find that in this country without serious research - perhaps some Lutheran churches or Moravian communities, or in Scottish Protestant places.
Personally I am more a chamber music bod, so I quite like the small professional choirs of 6-15 people in CofE churches around London - St Bride's Fleet Street, St Barnabas the Great and so on. Not many of those in Nottinghamshire, except Southwell Minster.
Putin's played a blinder today. He's managed to get almost all the PB cognoscenti to transfer their wrath and fury from him and his army to Macron and the French. Clever.
In the immortal words of Kenny Everett, "let's bomb Paris". Or something like that.
Are you suggesting Macron is in cahoots with Putin?
No.
I've always found the anti-French rhetoric on PB quite unpleasant, and it's really the only thing that turns me off this forum. I know some of it is in jest, but sadly some of it isn't, and quite a few posters seem to have a vitriolic and irrational dislike of everything and everybody French.
On the specific issue, it sounds like the French deserve criticism. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, in due course, we discover that several international and multinational companies are still trading or doing some sort of dealings with Russia, including some in the UK. I'll bet there's still UK money washing around in Moscow (as well as Russian money washing around in London), but we may never know as it wouldn't be high profile like Renault.
Aren't the UK getting Russian oil till the end of the year? That's nine months!
3% - how much is France and Germany getting and for how many years, not months
To be honest that is an argument for stopping it now. If you are getting 50% or more of your oil and gas from Russia then weaning yourself off it without leaving your pensioners in the dark and cold is a harder thing to do. If it is only 3% then to be honest I see no excuse for not biting the bullet and stopping it straight away.
Putin's played a blinder today. He's managed to get almost all the PB cognoscenti to transfer their wrath and fury from him and his army to Macron and the French. Clever.
In the immortal words of Kenny Everett, "let's bomb Paris". Or something like that.
Are you suggesting Macron is in cahoots with Putin?
No.
I've always found the anti-French rhetoric on PB quite unpleasant, and it's really the only thing that turns me off this forum. I know some of it is in jest, but sadly some of it isn't, and quite a few posters seem to have a vitriolic and irrational dislike of everything and everybody French.
On the specific issue, it sounds like the French deserve criticism. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if, in due course, we discover that several international and multinational companies are still trading or doing some sort of dealings with Russia, including some in the UK. I'll bet there's still UK money washing around in Moscow (as well as Russian money washing around in London), but we may never know as it wouldn't be high profile like Renault.
Aren't the UK getting Russian oil till the end of the year? That's nine months!
3% - how much is France and Germany getting and for how many years, not months
To be honest that is an argument for stopping it now. If you are getting 50% or more of your oil and gas from Russia then weaning yourself off it without leaving your pensioners in the dark and cold is a harder thing to do. If it is only 3% then to be honest I see no excuse for not biting the bullet and stopping it straight away.
I would agree but Germany in particular has put herself into the dire position because protecting their population in energy at the same time fuels Putin war machine and the slaughter of so many innocents
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Blake. And to be fair people can project what they like onto poetry, as they can any song lyrics or piece of music (the rather bland Beethoven version of ode to joy comes to mind). But sometimes exploring what an artist is actually trying to say can reveal things just as magical and even more profound, yet when it comes to Parry’s setting of Jerusalem to music, they are actually stripping Blake’s own excitement and artistry out of it. 😕
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
Neither of them are anti-UK. Would you listen to yourself. You've morphed into one of those UKIP frothers who see treachery in criticism.
I must be doing something right when those vested in the EU come out to divert attention from the actions of France
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
I have a pet peeve when poetry has to resort to archaic or clumsy sounding word order to achieve the rhyme. "Some to Misery are born" has a dislocating cadence, there's something faintly foreign or stuffy church Latin about it, and it really ruins any enjoyment I could have otherwise taken from a poem. It's like a painting when you can still see the sketch lines. It reads like a work in progress with lines than will eventually be purged when the writer gets around to editing the damn thing.
Yeah, he was technically not great. It is difficult to read Jerusalem without mentally hearing the music but if you can manage it, it is susceptible to the same attack
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Blake. And to be fair people can project what they like onto poetry, as they can any song lyrics or piece of music (the rather bland Beethoven version of ode to joy comes to mind). But sometimes exploring what an artist is actually trying to say can reveal things just as magical and even more profound, yet when it comes to Parry’s setting of Jerusalem to music, they are actually stripping Blake’s own excitement and artistry out of it. 😕
Beethoven's 9th is a disgrace. You don't have choirs in symphonies, and its catchiness and anthemability just proves the point.
Brilliant piece by Danny Fink, sums up everything that's wrong with Rishi and the treasury orthodoxy, @Gardenwalker, well worth the few mins to read it.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
I’m not in the slightest bit religious but it’s a beautiful poem and song. I hear it as a poignant love letter to England. It is no dirge. It’s the quintessential anthem of this country.
He's not going to be PM with these political antennae.
I sort of trust him to have his reasons. The wrongiest thing is to have from a budget of short termism, political traps for opponents, and geared for next days headlines? The saddest thing right now I think is the bonfire of cop agreements in rush for fossil fuels, which the UN has called bonkers. The people who argued for this direction all along, quite possibly pirate capitalists and climate change deniers who stand to make oodles from this shameless u turn are having the best war of anyone. ☹️
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
You under 35? Ye Gods
That it is poetry is v important. And - tbh - in a church setting it may be better read as poetry to be considered by a talk.
And of course the first verse hints at either legends of visits here by Joseph of Arithimea etc, or visions around creating a new society or whatever, as it can be tied into the visions in Revelation.
I have not read the history, but I would expect the New Jerusalem to be a theme for the non-comformist tradition in socialism / trade unionism. Perhaps especially for Tony Benn or Donald Soper.
Unless anyone can find a source to say otherwise, the casualty number for the Mariupol Theatre strike currently stands at zero. 130 people are said to have emerged unharmed, and the 'thousands' sheltering in the basement appear not to have been there at all. That's 3 for the hospital atrocity and none for the theatre atrocity. This is what I mean when I say 'the truth lies somewhere in the middle'.
Truth is the first casualty of war. But there is a problem with your statement about the truth 'lying somewhere in the middle.' It's the kind of thinking that the Russians love to exploit.
Western official says something halfway sensible Russian official says something completely outrageous
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Blake. And to be fair people can project what they like onto poetry, as they can any song lyrics or piece of music (the rather bland Beethoven version of ode to joy comes to mind). But sometimes exploring what an artist is actually trying to say can reveal things just as magical and even more profound, yet when it comes to Parry’s setting of Jerusalem to music, they are actually stripping Blake’s own excitement and artistry out of it. 😕
Beethoven's 9th is a disgrace. You don't have choirs in symphonies, and its catchiness and anthemability just proves the point.
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
"The French are scum."
Clearly, and by definition.
However the French are in fact wonderful, warm, and truly lovely people. I'll have to think about whether they're charming us for a while prior to revealing their true nature!
They also have the best national anthem. By miles.
Not really - The Welsh anthem is the best in the world
Well anything actually sung by the Welsh is the best in the world. Welshman singing the Marsiellais - that'd be a thing.
I really like 'Flower of Sctland' too - suits their peasant voice
I've always thought the Welsh National Anthem unsurpassable. The Marseillaise and the Stars and Stripes are pretty good too. I find it hard to think of another worthy of mention - maybe Flower of Scotland, or Australia Fair.
The Londonderry Air is a bit special but it's not an anthem of course. Somebody should nick it for their own.
I know the climate is wrong for making this admission and with all due apologies to people's sensibilities, but the old Soviet National Anthem is just a wonderful piece of music.
Yes, it's a truly rousing anthem. I wish ours was less boring, I think it's part of the reason we're shit at sport. Other teams have great national anthems to really get them going before a match, we have the world's dullest anthem.
The English/British anthem is utter shit. I can only think of two people on here who would possibly feel any pride when hearing it: @HYUFD and @malcolmg
I think it's fine. It's often played too slowly, but it is simple and straightforward to belt out, which is handy, even if it is certainly not as rousing or exciting as many others.
It will never happen, but "I vow to thee my country" by Gustav Holst would be a far better national anthem.
EDIT - I see some others have suggested the same.
I don't actually think it would be in the running as the CoE says it is heretical, placing the love of the nation above the love for God. Still a great song and before football matches it would get the team and crowd going.
The CofE can, quite frankly, fuck right off. None of their business. Anyway, I prefer Jerusalem. Though obviously that is English not British.
Putting God’s teaching and wisdom before nation is exactly their business.
CoE don’t like Jerusalem too, it’s banned from the hymnal’s 😝
The national anthem should be Rule Britannia. It is anti-French, pro-Navy and anti-slavery. What's not to like?
I'd say the songs in Church of England hymnbooks is precisely Church of England business.
And quite reasonable to note that the theology in Jerusalem is ... even being kind ... bollocks.
But does anyone have any evidence that it is banned?
It's very un-CofE to ban anything outright. Far more the sort of thing done in Scotland or by Atheists who both tend to be far more dogmatic about such things.
The last time I knew of it was Colin Slee, as the man with control of Worship at Southwark Cathedral.
Why is anyone in a flap?
The only major hymn book I can think of that it isn't in is Mission Praise. Which is American Evangelical although it is widely used in the Church of England (unfortunately).
Does it qualify as a hymn book? I thought it contained only "songs".
It has some hymns, but often in terrible arrangements. I can't actually play 'Be Thou My Vision' out of it because the 'harmony's' so bad it's literally painful to my ears.
Yes Jerusalem is frowned upon by CoE on basis it isn’t a hymn. and they a correct, there isn’t the clarity for a hymn.
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
Let's not beat about the bush: Blake was batshit crazy, and the imagery available to his batshit imagination was biblical imagery. That doesn't make him Christian, nor Jerusalem Christian. It isn't.
I would rather ask you if you know what combination of drugs Blake indulged in, than tell you are wrong. Or partly wrong. But here goes.
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal? Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time, Walk upon Englands mountains green: And was the holy Lamb of God, On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine, Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here, Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold: Bring me my Arrows of desire: Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold: Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight, Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand: Till we have built Jerusalem, In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
Well, Jerusalem clearly *wasn't* builded here (stanza 2) if it still needs doing in st 4.
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are born. Every Morn and every Night Some are born to Sweet Delight, Some are born to Endless Night.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Blake. And to be fair people can project what they like onto poetry, as they can any song lyrics or piece of music (the rather bland Beethoven version of ode to joy comes to mind). But sometimes exploring what an artist is actually trying to say can reveal things just as magical and even more profound, yet when it comes to Parry’s setting of Jerusalem to music, they are actually stripping Blake’s own excitement and artistry out of it. 😕
Beethoven's 9th is a disgrace. You don't have choirs in symphonies, and its catchiness and anthemability just proves the point.
Beethoven's 7th movt. 2 on the other hand...
Movt 2?
The signal's weird. There must be some intereference or something. There's movement all over the place!
Phil Stewart @phildstewart · 19m (Reuters) - Russia's security policy dictates that the country would only use nuclear weapons if its very existence were threatened, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told CNN.
The comment came amid Western concern that the conflict there could escalate into a nuclear war.
He's not going to be PM with these political antennae.
The bigger problem is that Rishi hasn't understood electoral timing very well at all, he seems to be waiting for "something" to turn up and help rather than making active moves to get the economy moving so that when 2024 rolls around we're in a jobs, wages and living standards boom and people have forgotten how expensive petrol was in summer 2022.
Pork barrel politics will only get the Tories so far, spreading economic gains across the country and ensuring millions across marginal benefit rather than a select few in a few constituencies is how to win elections. I fear that the Tories are in for a real drubbing in 2024. The reputation for economic competence will be lost and be very difficult to win back.
He's not going to be PM with these political antennae.
The bigger problem is that Rishi hasn't understood electoral timing very well at all, he seems to be waiting for "something" to turn up and help rather than making active moves to get the economy moving so that when 2024 rolls around we're in a jobs, wages and living standards boom and people have forgotten how expensive petrol was in summer 2022.
Pork barrel politics will only get the Tories so far, spreading economic gains across the country and ensuring millions across marginal benefit rather than a select few in a few constituencies is how to win elections. I fear that the Tories are in for a real drubbing in 2024. The reputation for economic competence will be lost and be very difficult to win back.
I wait to hear from Rishi tomorrow but I am beginning to have my doubts
The French are scum. And yet the usual Europhiles on PB give more shit to Boris for an inelegant comparison than bankrolling war criminals.
Has @Scott_xP made any comment as I assume he will be embarrassed by this behaviour and call it out
The PB Remoaners are staying quiet. The only voices responding are those condemning this despicable act and the outright Putin apologists engaging in whataboutism.
I am sad to say this but by individually picking posters out like Roger and Scott as EU traitors is really rather unpleasant.
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
This is not jingoism it is simply fairness
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
Neither of them are anti-UK. Would you listen to yourself. You've morphed into one of those UKIP frothers who see treachery in criticism.
I must be doing something right when those vested in the EU come out to divert attention from the actions of France
How about China and India?
I think we know about China.
The leader of India has not spent the last 2 years engaged, and particularly the last 3 weeks, in petty political sniping.
Incidentally, France24 have been talking about the Z speech tomorrow, and what he will mention.
They also noted that he may be unhappy about Renault, but that France had now frozen £850m in oligarch assets. Which make sme more annoyed with Macron, not less. And with our Government for not having a strong enough PR narrative to put Macron back in his toybox months ago.
Comments
Mons. Macaron has a lot to learn from HMQ.
But I'm happy to wait to see what President Z says to the French Parliament when he speaks to the French Parliament tomorrow.
I'd say he will praise Joan of Arc and maybe WW2 resistance / recovery, and perhaps the Revolution but with rather a long spoon, and recent resistance to terrorism, rather than Napoleon. Will Charles de Gaulle get a mention?
Is there a "bingo" market?
They perhaps deserve longer out in the cold than that.
Is electing same as pm better?
Agincourt 100/1
You don’t project onto a hymn, the hymn projects onto you.
Look at blakes nonsense verses, complete mishmash of poetic ideas, the listener projects onto them, not projected onto. What is the virtue they are extolling? What specifically are they adoring?
Many get quite bothered by any historical and pragmatic reading of Blake’s poetic musings which do not fit their own fanciful interpretion of the song they love, particularly when read counter to their perceived ownership of historical Jesus, which Blake is directly challenging in these verses. Yet more projection onto the words, where hymn must go the other way. Yet they can’t explain the sexual imagery as Blake understood, or why it indiscriminately just erects itself without extolling anything in particular, nor be specific about poetry so duly enigmatic it may be nothing more than reference to a mill dark and satanic is poetic reference to an actual mill gutted by fire standing between a poet’s home and his bread shop – possibly gutted in industrial dispute over pay. Blake believed in hell, to him this ruin he often passed looked like hell had visited it. This is what poets do.
It’s not written as a hymn called Jerusalem, the reference to Jerusalem is Blake’s genuine belief Jesus and Joseph were building a bit of Jerusalem here.
In an update on Tuesday, the general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces said Russia had suffered "large, irreversible” losses of personnel, including among its command.
The update said that following a counter-attack launched by Ukrainian forces in the south, "the enemy is compelled to retreat to unfavourable borders" towards Mykolaiv, a city near the Black Sea.
Officials added: "Having lost its offensive potential, the Russian occupation forces continue to form and move reserves from the depths of the Russian Federation to the borders of Ukraine."
It comes after Ukrainian troops regained the strategically important Kyiv suburb of Makariv early on Tuesday, retaking control of a key highway and blocking Russian troops from surrounding the city from the north-west.
On the speech bingo, I think MattW is right French Resistance is a dead cert, but I'm less sure that Saint Joan will get a reference, bit too distant.
I do like the idea that Zelensky's speechwriter is frantically checking wikipedia the night before each speech to get the best allusions for each parliament.
(They are a Turkish owned franchise.)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/17/tory-mp-backs-calls-for-marks-spencer-to-shut-stores-in-russia
But it is not 'banned from hymn books' by them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_Arkansas
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1506352358070136848?s=20&t=R8CFlOFeACQL02QxCREi1A
“ No way back for Russian for a generation after this. “.
I couldn’t disagree with you more, to be honest. You are entitled to your opinion, but your Cold War with Navalny and Solidarnost is bonkers, count me out.
https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1506346172977491978
It was produced as an ecumenically suitable collection of ~300 songs / hymns for the Billy Graham Mission England football stadium meetings in 1984 and 1985, and for use in local churches. They needed to balance well-known trad hymns and the songs from the renewal movement that was growing at the time; some of that material was American.
I recall one of the Hillsborough meetings.
A second book (MP2) came out in a couple of years later. And it now seems to be up to 1400 items, so I think that makes it a Hymn book by now
And there was no way they would get a hymn with an ostensible theology tending to British Israelitism through.
Let me put my Malcolm Tucker head on…
Bloody hell, what is the answer? He is hardly in a position to throw stones at Renault, France, or anyone, except do we know his family is breaking sanctions and benefitting from Putin money, we would have to be careful and sure, just because Mouldy is buying the oil doesn’t mean all Indian business in on the make?
Soon as someone posted the cartoon you are using as avatar I loved it. It’s one of the cartoons that really stand out. Like a banksy. 🙂
Lada Niva. About £6000 new in Russia (At todays exchange rate)
Careful with bad language !
Today's French Presidential polling shows Melenchon improving and a clear third in most polls as Valerie Pecresse sinks to around 10% and fifth place - she has managed to halve Fillon's vote which takes some doing.
It seems unlikely Melenchon will overhaul Le Pen for second but not impossible. Zemmour is out of contention now.
Contrast:
“The love that never falters, the love that pays the price; the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice”
With
“You cannot count her armies, you may not see her King; her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride in suffering”
It’s clear that the author believes that Another Country is the better one
You are part of PB's pro- Johnson, anti EU majority which is fine, but cheerleading the troops to give the quislings a kicking is tantamount to bullying. You can include me in your traitors list.
Best I think, to come back when all the shrill jingoism calms down.
I thought better of you G.
Did it occur to you that it’s an anti-imperialist hymn - contrasting the Kingdom of Heaven (“Another Country”) to the empire (“my country”)?
On PB? Don't hold your breath!
Though that WOULD be one way to (re)turn you blue . . .
Both posters attack the UK and Boris 24/7 from an anti UK stance due to their loathing of Brexit but when the EU or in this case France behave in an unacceptable way they make no comment
William Blake was very much a religious man, but little is strictly orthodox about his life, views or his art, outlandish and overtly sexual for the time. Although there are no historical documents describing Yeshua’s visits to Britain, this is quite proper if surviving documents are written by Christians who don’t want anyone to access what doesn’t fit with their Orthodoxy, which was essentially Catholic (and on wrong side of the council of Nicaea to be the Church Paul founded, let alone the initial followers of Yeshua before Paul’s letters from Greek islands) when many written histories we depend on today were produced; Blake nevertheless enthusiastically researched the oral history’s of Britain, Europe and the Mediterranean looking for and finding correlating evidence for Yeshua’s visit to Britain.
But whatever others want to believe, to project on his prose, or refuse to believe of the questions Blake raised in his preface to Milton, it’s probable Blake felt he had enough evidence to believe them himself, or else why has he done so much research and got so excited?
Remember Jerusalem was not written as either hymn or song, it was poetry, a preamble in verse, orchestrated long after it was written, this point is quite central to why there is contention over what it is saying to us. Simply put, hymns are written with sound messaging and absence of conjecture or projection, specifically written to achieve purpose, normally adoration of something. The question is, if you pick up any old nonsense lyric or abstruse poetry, can you fashion a fine hymn, that can enter a Church’s Hymnal?
Technically no - as clearly proved by Parry’s orchestral setting of the preface to Blake’s lengthy narrative poem Milton,
And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold:
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold:
Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.
How much is clear? For example, whose sword will not sleep in hand? Perhaps the last two lines can be construed as building Christianity in England, even this is mistaken if Yeshua visited to build Hellenised Jewish Essenic settlement. Would building the Kingdom of Yeshua and Uncle Jo be a Catholic or Protestant Jerusalem? We know today, and as Blake would have himself, the answer to that is clearly no.
I done a project on Blake in school about twelve years ago. 😇
A hatred of greed, dishonesty, corruption and self-cenredness is, as hatreds go, not the worst kind. You seem to have a kind of innate need to worship "Boris" which blinds you to principal actual qualities.
And have these lawyers been named and shamed yet
I have been clear for months he needs to go and indeed have said so on many occasions
Question is why, why give them that breathing space, why frame the sanctions in such a way as to let the Oligarch’s, who paid them so much, off? 🤔.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/12/why-has-abramovichs-billionaire-friend-been-left-off-the-uk-sanctions-list
I don't say that Blake did drugs (though he might well have done, no shortage of opium back then) but there's forms of madness which mimic drugs quite closely. Look at Louis Wain
As a lifelong severe depressive, I think Blake's greatest lines are these
Every Night and every Morn
Some to Misery are born.
Every Morn and every Night
Some are born to Sweet Delight,
Some are born to Endless Night.
I think the challenge with that one may be the size of the group to perform it? Though plenty of CofE places seem to have it from time to time. And there's an incredible variety, plus the unique way Psalms are chanted.
Have you ever tried the congregational harmony tradition of North European Protestants? I would not know where to find that in this country without serious research - perhaps some Lutheran churches or Moravian communities, or in Scottish Protestant places.
Personally I am more a chamber music bod, so I quite like the small professional choirs of 6-15 people in CofE churches around London - St Bride's Fleet Street, St Barnabas the Great and so on. Not many of those in Nottinghamshire, except Southwell Minster.
He's not going to be PM with these political antennae.
Shame on you.
Brilliant piece by Danny Fink, sums up everything that's wrong with Rishi and the treasury orthodoxy, @Gardenwalker, well worth the few mins to read it.
Do you condemn France action over Renault ?
Simple question - no bullying or coward involved
That’s my position and I will stand by it.
That it is poetry is v important. And - tbh - in a church setting it may be better read as poetry to be considered by a talk.
And of course the first verse hints at either legends of visits here by Joseph of Arithimea etc, or visions around creating a new society or whatever, as it can be tied into the visions in Revelation.
I have not read the history, but I would expect the New Jerusalem to be a theme for the non-comformist tradition in socialism / trade unionism. Perhaps especially for Tony Benn or Donald Soper.
Western official says something halfway sensible
Russian official says something completely outrageous
The truth lies somewhere in the middle? Hmmmm.
Now I really am off. I'm gone, I'm dust!
PB would not exist if that was case
The signal's weird. There must be some intereference or something. There's movement all over the place!
Phil Stewart
@phildstewart
·
19m
(Reuters) - Russia's security policy dictates that the country would only use nuclear weapons if its very existence were threatened, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told CNN.
The comment came amid Western concern that the conflict there could escalate into a nuclear war.
https://twitter.com/phildstewart
Pork barrel politics will only get the Tories so far, spreading economic gains across the country and ensuring millions across marginal benefit rather than a select few in a few constituencies is how to win elections. I fear that the Tories are in for a real drubbing in 2024. The reputation for economic competence will be lost and be very difficult to win back.
And the first and worst bully I met on my first day at prep school kicked off with asking whether I ever let a little bit of wee out in bed?
So your question, ironically, establishes exactly what it seeks to disprove.
do you feel a bit of a tit now? (See what I did there?)
The leader of India has not spent the last 2 years engaged, and particularly the last 3 weeks, in petty political sniping.
Incidentally, France24 have been talking about the Z speech tomorrow, and what he will mention.
They also noted that he may be unhappy about Renault, but that France had now frozen £850m in oligarch assets. Which make sme more annoyed with Macron, not less. And with our Government for not having a strong enough PR narrative to put Macron back in his toybox months ago.