Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Level of educational attainment – the great political divide – politicalbetting.com

123457»

Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Scott_xP said:

    After Russia gave OneWeb a list of conditional demands for launching the company's satellites, OneWeb is turning to SpaceX for its launches https://twitter.com/lorengrush/status/1505893311311192064/photo/1

    Old news.

    The moment that the Russian Space program committed suicide, the question was where to get replacement launches for the remaining phase 1 satellite. Phase II was already going on Indian launchers.

    SpaceX are the only launch provider with capacity. Or the capability to do anything inside 2 years.

    And they have another reason, aside from mere money. Various SpaceX hating companies are trying to sell the pitch (especially in the Congressional arena in the US) that their vertical integration gives them an unfair advantage, rather than actually come up with cheap launch themselves.

    If SpaceX launches satellites for a competitor (Starlink), that gives them a cast iron, throw-the-case-out-in-first-10-minutes rebuttal to such attacks.
    Cringely had a great overview of the finances of Starlink last year and how it intersects with a large pot of FCC money for rural users. And remember that all the networks will need Starlink to reach the really hard customers in those rural areas...

    https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.

    We've certainly seen that in the US.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    What caused the big crossover on 26 March 2020? Peak Boris Covid Saviour?
    Maybe since then Vlad stopped "investing" in social media manipulation of UK Facebook users, as he needed to spend his Roubles on a home audience
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    What caused the big crossover on 26 March 2020? Peak Boris Covid Saviour?
    That poll was by NC Politics while almost all the others are YouGov, so perhaps it's a house effect or even a misreporting of the numbers, or just a rogue poll. The vaccine rollout impact last year looks real but has faded.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    A Russian court has approved the government's request to have Facebook declared an extremist organisation and for it to be banned in Russia.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    Exactly
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
    Yes, I know that is your pre-ordained narrative so you believe it regardless of evidence.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241



    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?

    I don't know (evading fighting for either side would be tempting if possible), and I'm reluctant to pass judgment 80 years later on anyone in that situation, especially as I'm no kind of expert on Ukraine - my knowledge of Bandera comes largely from the Wikipedia article.

    My mother's hostility to Ukraine was not so much, as I said, with Bandera's decision to ally with the Nazis, or even with his anti-semitism - even she recognised that we can't really judge countries on the decisions of individuals. What she found unforgivable was that he was commemorated as a hero right up to the time of her death, as I understand remains the case up to the present day.

    I don't offer that as an excuse for Putin launching a war, of course, I was replying to a question about how come Russians and Ukrainians are at loggerheads when they seem ethnically quite similar. The past - Holodomor and Nazi collaboration alike - casts far longer shadows than is understood by most people in Britain. I wish it were otherwise.
    People had a choice of siding with the evil Communist Russians, who had killed millions of them less than a decade earlier, or with the evil Nazis. They were trapped.

    But my point was that the Holodomor came first, and everything that happened afterwards has to be seen in that context. Including today's war.
    Worth noting that the Baltic States faced a similar choice, invaded twice by Stalin and once by Hitler.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After Russia gave OneWeb a list of conditional demands for launching the company's satellites, OneWeb is turning to SpaceX for its launches https://twitter.com/lorengrush/status/1505893311311192064/photo/1

    Old news.

    The moment that the Russian Space program committed suicide, the question was where to get replacement launches for the remaining phase 1 satellite. Phase II was already going on Indian launchers.

    SpaceX are the only launch provider with capacity. Or the capability to do anything inside 2 years.

    And they have another reason, aside from mere money. Various SpaceX hating companies are trying to sell the pitch (especially in the Congressional arena in the US) that their vertical integration gives them an unfair advantage, rather than actually come up with cheap launch themselves.

    If SpaceX launches satellites for a competitor (Starlink), that gives them a cast iron, throw-the-case-out-in-first-10-minutes rebuttal to such attacks.
    Cringely had a great overview of the finances of Starlink last year and how it intersects with a large pot of FCC money for rural users. And remember that all the networks will need Starlink to reach the really hard customers in those rural areas...

    https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
    I do like laughing at the 5G-will-beat-Starlink-in-renote-areas types.

    Dude, where's your backhaul?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    mwadams said:

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    Nah uni free for students who study STEM, medicine, history, and law degrees.
    Nah - quadruple the cost for lawyers and make everyone else free.
    Have a think about what effect that provision is going to have on legal fees, 5 years down the road
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I'm told by Govt sources that it's "looking unlikely" that Boris Johnson will be invited to European Council meeting in Brussels on Thursday. Some anger there about what the PM did/ didn't mean by his remarks in Blackpool...

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1505872720709443585?s=20&t=ELNfNLEcrUURPdxdZQXf1A
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Thing is, Big G, we can't trust you. You supported being in the EU and then changed your mind and supported being outside the EU. Why would we think you won't change your mind again.

    At least @HYUFD continues to think that it was a bad idea albeit supports the democratic decision reached which is consistent but strange - ie he wouldn't support a democratically-elected Labour government, I'm guessing, but anyway.
    .
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Taz said:

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....
    Hartlepool seems to have become a totem for some on the batshit FBPE side to fixate on.

    Odd.
    Stoke is the backup. Talk about lazy stereotypes.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
    The amusing thing about your comment is the fact that you think people would vote a particular way because they were offended by my view. I mean how much of an idiot would one have to be to say "I am going to vote Leave because someone else thinks I am gullible" lol. The reality is that a lot of people ARE very gullible. If you don't want to accept that then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    Search function, within text.
    Not in Outlook.
    Works in mine. But within text.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    edited March 2022

    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.

    Was that before or after he came up with Keep England White?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022
    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    edited March 2022
    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    Investigation of cases by the ICC has already begun.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    I remember thinking it strange that people thought the Queen was pro-BREXIT, because she (apparently) asked, in conversation, someone to state the benefits of being in the EU.

    If only the Remain campaign had put forward cogent answers to that question.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.

    Was that before or after he came up with Keep England White?
    Probably about the same time Arthur Donaldson was flirting with the Nazis.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    Sublimate ?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
    Yes, I know that is your pre-ordained narrative so you believe it regardless of evidence.
    It is an opinion based on the evidence of the man's very flawed character, and the fact that his own family were surprised by his claimed allegiance to the cause that he finally decided on was in his best interest
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.

    Was that before or after he came up with Keep England White?
    Probably about the same time Arthur Donaldson was flirting with the Nazis.
    You need to do better than adduce someone banged up on no evidence and let free quickly. Try Archibald Ramsay.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    Say it, sister.




  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
    The amusing thing about your comment is the fact that you think people would vote a particular way because they were offended by my view. I mean how much of an idiot would one have to be to say "I am going to vote Leave because someone else thinks I am gullible" lol. The reality is that a lot of people ARE very gullible. If you don't want to accept that then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
    Once again, in your effort to be amused by and superior to those who disagree with you, you fail to understand their argument. I am not saying people voted the other way because you think they are gullible. I am saying that because you rush to explain their position as malice or stupidity, you fail to appreciate their actual reasoning or form counter arguments to that reasoning.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Thing is, Big G, we can't trust you. You supported being in the EU and then changed your mind and supported being outside the EU. Why would we think you won't change your mind again.

    At least @HYUFD continues to think that it was a bad idea albeit supports the democratic decision reached which is consistent but strange - ie he wouldn't support a democratically-elected Labour government, I'm guessing, but anyway.
    .
    You need to be more careful in your use of words. I certainly did not SUPPORT the vote for Brexit but I do ACCEPT the democratic choice made. Exactly the same goes for a Labour government.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022
    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited March 2022

    Miss Vance, I think it was Churchill who said the fascists of the future would be anti-fascists.

    Yes, and he also campaigned in the 1945 election comparing Labour to the "some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance".
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    It is very unlikely that there would be a conviction in absentia of Putin by the time the war in Ukraine is complete, as it would take years. Evidence will take many years to gather, so whether "Aslan" is very good on other matters is open to question, but there is nothing wrong with what he said in that post.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,779

    A Russian court has approved the government's request to have Facebook declared an extremist organisation and for it to be banned in Russia.

    Does that come under the category of bad people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons...?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    On the day most of #Scotland remaining #COVID restrictions end - the number of people in hospital reaches it’s highest total since the start of this pandemic - 2,128 patients
    @SkyNews

    https://twitter.com/skysarahjane/status/1505911660065792011
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    I'm told by Govt sources that it's "looking unlikely" that Boris Johnson will be invited to European Council meeting in Brussels on Thursday. Some anger there about what the PM did/ didn't mean by his remarks in Blackpool...

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1505872720709443585?s=20&t=ELNfNLEcrUURPdxdZQXf1A

    Odd - I'm sure everyone will be rushing in to say how petty the EU are being. As the leader of a key NATO ally he probably should be there. If being a bit miffed about his silly remarks results in withdrawal of a invite that's just pathetic. Presumably Putin will be pleased.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022
    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Thing is, Big G, we can't trust you. You supported being in the EU and then changed your mind and supported being outside the EU. Why would we think you won't change your mind again.

    At least @HYUFD continues to think that it was a bad idea albeit supports the democratic decision reached which is consistent but strange - ie he wouldn't support a democratically-elected Labour government, I'm guessing, but anyway.
    .
    You need to be more careful in your use of words. I certainly did not SUPPORT the vote for Brexit but I do ACCEPT the democratic choice made. Exactly the same goes for a Labour government.
    Absolutely I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. My small point was that @HYUFD wouldn't be going out noisily cheerleading a Labour government because it won.

    Big G, meanwhile, has changed his mind and is noisily cheerleading Brexit, having been opposed to it hitherto.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576
    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    Putin may not be the Russian government for ever. Best if those around him know what he is - and what they might become if they stick too close to him.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    And the Serb war criminals weren't handed over by Milosevic either. Neither was Omar Al Bashir handed over by himself. And Al Bashir also "won" the war in Darfur yet still ended up in the ICC. You see, and bear with me here because this might be complex for you, governments can change over time.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    Putin may not be the Russian government for ever. Best if those around him know what he is - and what they might become if they stick too close to him.
    Yes it will both be a powerful nudge to others but also might likely ensure that Putin attempts to solidify his position still further to ensure the possibility of a palace coup is ever smaller.

    If he is indicted as a war criminal then he will also be aware of the implications of the decision.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
    Yes, I know that is your pre-ordained narrative so you believe it regardless of evidence.
    It is an opinion based on the evidence of the man's very flawed character, and the fact that his own family were surprised by his claimed allegiance to the cause that he finally decided on was in his best interest
    Eh? Why does that have to do with it? My family wouldn’t have been able to guess I’d vote leave.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    It is very unlikely that there would be a conviction in absentia of Putin by the time the war in Ukraine is complete, as it would take years. Evidence will take many years to gather, so whether "Aslan" is very good on other matters is open to question, but there is nothing wrong with what he said in that post.
    Actually looking back at the thread it appears that it was you who said that Putin should be convicted of war crimes. In which case my point applies to you also.

    We are sitting here on the internet making all kinds of pronouncements which of course is what the internet is for, but we can sometimes let our passions cloud our judgement.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
    The amusing thing about your comment is the fact that you think people would vote a particular way because they were offended by my view. I mean how much of an idiot would one have to be to say "I am going to vote Leave because someone else thinks I am gullible" lol. The reality is that a lot of people ARE very gullible. If you don't want to accept that then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
    Surely the serious point is that many millions seem to have rebelled against an establishment view that some of their beliefs were contemptible and that they should tug their forelocks and accept the EU bounties regardless. They voted no because they'd had enough of being patronised by thier 'betters'. I think the vote was misguided but I could understand the rationale. The 'remain' campaign really need to do a lot of soul-searching before rushing in to denounce the 'deplorables'. It's too easy to do that.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
    The amusing thing about your comment is the fact that you think people would vote a particular way because they were offended by my view. I mean how much of an idiot would one have to be to say "I am going to vote Leave because someone else thinks I am gullible" lol. The reality is that a lot of people ARE very gullible. If you don't want to accept that then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
    Once again, in your effort to be amused by and superior to those who disagree with you, you fail to understand their argument. I am not saying people voted the other way because you think they are gullible. I am saying that because you rush to explain their position as malice or stupidity, you fail to appreciate their actual reasoning or form counter arguments to that reasoning.
    I understand the arguments very well thanks and so did those that manipulated the narrative enough to move the dial. Thinking someone's viewpoint is ill informed or plain wrong does not necessarily mean that the person holding them is dumb, or that an individual doesn't hold those views for what they consider sound and rational reasons, it just means that they hold that view. What is definitely dumb is to believe people cannot be manipulated by a well targeted campaign. What is also dumb is to believe the Russia Report that claimed, after very limited remit, that there was "no evidence" of Russian attempts to influence British politics, which is very laughable.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    Putin may not be the Russian government for ever. Best if those around him know what he is - and what they might become if they stick too close to him.
    Yes it will both be a powerful nudge to others but also might likely ensure that Putin attempts to solidify his position still further to ensure the possibility of a palace coup is ever smaller.

    If he is indicted as a war criminal then he will also be aware of the implications of the decision.
    So tell us, what actions will Putin be taking to solidify his position against a palace coup that he wouldn't be doing anyway.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Thing is, Big G, we can't trust you. You supported being in the EU and then changed your mind and supported being outside the EU. Why would we think you won't change your mind again.

    At least @HYUFD continues to think that it was a bad idea albeit supports the democratic decision reached which is consistent but strange - ie he wouldn't support a democratically-elected Labour government, I'm guessing, but anyway.
    .
    You need to be more careful in your use of words. I certainly did not SUPPORT the vote for Brexit but I do ACCEPT the democratic choice made. Exactly the same goes for a Labour government.
    Absolutely I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. My small point was that @HYUFD wouldn't be going out noisily cheerleading a Labour government because it won.

    Big G, meanwhile, has changed his mind and is noisily cheerleading Brexit, having been opposed to it hitherto.
    I suspect he'd just like people to try and make the best of a bad job. We are where we are.
  • PensfoldPensfold Posts: 191

    Say it, sister.




    Nazanin doesn't seem to blame Iran for her being held hostage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2022
    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    And the Serb war criminals weren't handed over by Milosevic either. Neither was Omar Al Bashir handed over by himself. And Al Bashir also "won" the war in Darfur yet still ended up in the ICC. You see, and bear with me here because this might be complex for you, governments can change over time.
    They certainly can and do you expect a government which has been indicted for war crimes will a) give it all up and buy a one-way ticket to the Hague; or b) fight more ruthlessly and for longer on the "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" principle.

    As I said we all wish we could wave a magic want (the ICC in this case) and stop nasty Mr Putin from being nasty but that ignores the consequences of what we wish for which people (looking at you, my leonine friend) don't seem to have thought through.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    Putin may not be the Russian government for ever. Best if those around him know what he is - and what they might become if they stick too close to him.
    Yes it will both be a powerful nudge to others but also might likely ensure that Putin attempts to solidify his position still further to ensure the possibility of a palace coup is ever smaller.

    If he is indicted as a war criminal then he will also be aware of the implications of the decision.
    He'll be trying to solidify his position even further due to the war not going as he expected. Look at the people who've been placed under house arrest or blamed for failures already.

    I don't see it as a reason not to try him in absentia. If he has ordered war crimes committed, he should be tried for them. It might also send strong messages to other world leaders - and not just in the east or third world.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    felix said:

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
    The fact you think people voting for Brexit were just gullible fools doing what Boris told them is one of the reasons your side lost.
    The amusing thing about your comment is the fact that you think people would vote a particular way because they were offended by my view. I mean how much of an idiot would one have to be to say "I am going to vote Leave because someone else thinks I am gullible" lol. The reality is that a lot of people ARE very gullible. If you don't want to accept that then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
    Surely the serious point is that many millions seem to have rebelled against an establishment view that some of their beliefs were contemptible and that they should tug their forelocks and accept the EU bounties regardless. They voted no because they'd had enough of being patronised by thier 'betters'. I think the vote was misguided but I could understand the rationale. The 'remain' campaign really need to do a lot of soul-searching before rushing in to denounce the 'deplorables'. It's too easy to do that.
    Yea, sure, but I am not a politician, so I don't feel the need to pull punches, and pretend that a large part of the population are not easily influenced to vote for something against their own interest. The idea that it was a vote "against the establishment" stands up to only ludicrous scrutiny when you consider the main protagonists that were in favour of Brexit. Brexit was a vote for a continuation of the power of the traditional establishment, not a repudiation of it. It was an attempt by the older part of the electorate to turn clocks back, not forward.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited March 2022
    Pensfold said:

    Say it, sister.




    Nazanin doesn't seem to blame Iran for her being held hostage.
    I do wonder how many people feel, like me, that it was wrong to link the debt to her release and that the previous Foreign Secretaries made the right call? It’s lovely for her and her family that she’s free, but it’s an uncomfortable precedent.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Aslan said:

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    Biden and other Western leaders need to come out and say loudly they are collecting evidence on war crimes and plan to prosecute individual soldiers. Following orders will not be an excuse. Also mention how Serbians and Croatians were handed over by their own governments down the line.
    You're not very good at all this are you. I admire your passion but you fail on the practicalities.

    OK let's indict Putin as a war criminal. Let's' then examine what he might do next.

    He is a war criminal, so do you think he will attend Geneva for the purposes of a negotiated settlement in Ukraine where he will likely be arrested; or do you think he will entrench himself and battle perhaps to the death (of many others, perhaps himself) as there's no point in either negotiating or losing as he will be treated as a war criminal.

    But loving the Ukrainian flag on your posts.
    As already mentioned, Serbian and Croatian war criminals were handed over by their own governments in cuffs. No need for them to turn up to Geneva. And as is obvious to anyone that isn't a Russian apologist conspiracy theorist, Putin has already chosen to go down the war criminal route.

    You are not very good at this are you.
    But seemingly better than you. Putin is the Russian government. Is he planning to hand himself over? And whether he is a war criminal or not is very much in the gift of the winners (cf Iraq, etc). At present he has not lost, and nor is anyone in a position to be declared a winner so again that falls down.

    And NATO bombed Kosovo in 1999, because they could. They have decided that they can't bomb Russia or anyone on behalf of Ukraine.

    So not quite analagous.
    Putin may not be the Russian government for ever. Best if those around him know what he is - and what they might become if they stick too close to him.
    Yes it will both be a powerful nudge to others but also might likely ensure that Putin attempts to solidify his position still further to ensure the possibility of a palace coup is ever smaller.

    If he is indicted as a war criminal then he will also be aware of the implications of the decision.
    So tell us, what actions will Putin be taking to solidify his position against a palace coup that he wouldn't be doing anyway.
    And how much more likely do you think a palace coup would be if he were indicted as a war criminal as opposed to now when you are saying he is acting like a war criminal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Reposting this link, as it's an important story.
    The last journalists to get out of Mariupol.
    https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-edf7240a9d990e7e3e32f82ca351dede

    ...The absence of information in a blockade accomplishes two goals.

    Chaos is the first. People don’t know what’s going on, and they panic. At first I couldn’t understand why Mariupol fell apart so quickly. Now I know it was because of the lack of communication.

    Impunity is the second goal. With no information coming out of a city, no pictures of demolished buildings and dying children, the Russian forces could do whatever they wanted. If not for us, there would be nothing.

    That’s why we took such risks to be able to send the world what we saw, and that’s what made Russia angry enough to hunt us down.

    I have never, ever felt that breaking the silence was so important....


  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated.
    If we flip the question around, starting from where we are now it’s hard to see why we’d join. A tiny increase in GDP at the expense of control of vast areas of policy, and if we did join now the end to our own currency.
  • Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
    Yes, I know that is your pre-ordained narrative so you believe it regardless of evidence.
    I think there evidence of that, Asian. He was pro-EU when campaigning to be Mayor of London.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    This thread has advanced to the next battleground - May 5th

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    JACK_W said:

    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.

    Diane Abbott asked about the other third?
    and Boris Johnson would have written three essays and thought long and hard about which was in his best interest to publish.
    Boris deserves criticism for many things, but setting out the best arguments for each side of a big decision to help him decide is not one of them. It showed uncharacteristic thoughtfulness and caution.
    Oh come on, his only calculation was about which side offered him the best chance of realising his egotistical ambition. He no more believes in Brexit than he does in Father Christmas.
    Yes, I know that is your pre-ordained narrative so you believe it regardless of evidence.
    I think there evidence of that, Asian. He was pro-EU when campaigning to be Mayor of London.
    “Pro EU” is a stretch. He wasn’t in favour of leaving, but then not many of us were in 2008.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated.
    Except you haven't been and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Say it, sister.

    It's interesting to look at that list of 5 Foreign Secretaries in the context of the next Conservative Party leadership election.

    Philip, now Baron, Hammond. In the political wilderness, but aiming for an afterlife in the media as the go-to former senior Tory to say "I told you so" when Boris Johnson balls it up again.

    Boris Johnson. Now Prime Minister, despite reportedly holding the distinction of being the only one of the five to make Nazanin's ordeal worse than it already was.

    Jeremy Hunt. A possible contender for the leadership if Boris Johnson is forced to resign in such a way to discredit all those who sit with him around the Cabinet table, but otherwise cast as not quite sound on Brexit, and therefore a long-shot.

    Dominic Raab. Those who the gods wish to destroy they first send mad... by making Dominic Raab Prime Minister. It can't happen, surely. Please.

    Liz Truss. Appears to have the knack of getting things done, or at least of being in the right place at the right time when they happen - see also post-Brexit trade deals. I've previously argued that Foreign Secretary was a dead-end job with all the appearance of status, but no opportunity to make an impact to help when pitching for the top job. But now, foreign affairs have rarely been more consequential.

    The other main contenders, who haven't been Foreign Secretary, are Sunak and Javid - both saddled with the difficulties of dealing with the post-Covid damage to the economy, public finances and the health service.

    Liz Truss seems to receive a tremendous amount of vitriolic criticism, out of proportion to the mere failing of being a Tory Cabinet Minister, but I think she's currently well-placed, poised you might say, to take over from Boris Johnson. Should probably be favourite.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated.
    Except you haven't been and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
    You keep claiming it is Leavers banging on about it, but once again, this is a thread where YOU brought it up again. Leavers are broadly happy with the new status quo, return of powers to Westminster, controlled EU immigration etc.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616

    Putin is a fucking disgrace. Surely there must be an international body that can make these psychos realise that if they become convicted of war crimes in absentia they will be arrested the moment they step outside Russia or if there is ever a regime change
    And that’s the issue with the ICC… it means they have every incentive to prevent future regime change
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    Say it, sister.




    That’s a little graceless of her

    “We’re going to get you home” was the government speaking not the individual FS… ultimately they did. Maybe not as quickly as we would all have liked but they got her home.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
    If we had the Brexit vote again, I would vote much more emphatically to LEAVE, and with none of the havering and 50/50 quavering of last time. I might even do it with "delight"

    I'm afraid we exist. The Leavers who feel vindicated.
    Except you haven't been and that is why you bang on about it ad nauseum. You know it is shit and pointless, and you keep coming on here in the hope you might convince yourself. You are suffering from sub conscious "repetition compulsion" in a desire to gain "illusory truth effect".

    Leon, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, you still know in your heart of hearts it was fucking pointless.
    You keep claiming it is Leavers banging on about it, but once again, this is a thread where YOU brought it up again. Leavers are broadly happy with the new status quo, return of powers to Westminster, controlled EU immigration etc.
    Oh come on @Leon bangs on about it relentlessly.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....

    Age and education are very relevant to the vote on Brexit and obviously they're both connected. Younger better educated people don't have the same fear of foreigners that older ones do and as time is going to change the demographic balance whether anyone likes it or not I cant think of many subjects more relevant to the future of politics and the EU than this one.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    You want to cut kids in two? That's a bit drastic.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    eristdoof said:

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    You want to cut kids in two? That's a bit drastic.
    Doubles the Labour vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    TimS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1h
    Channel One has finally responded to Marina Ovsyannikova’s on-air protest.

    Kirill Kleimyonov, head of the news division, accuses her of being a British spy.

    He said she has “betrayed [her] country and all of us … coldly, duplicitously, for a bonus.”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1505859269522079746

    ===

    Incredible. As you know he knows he is lying. Kinda sums up the whole regime really.

    I make it a rule never to believe a woman is spying for us until Boris confirms it in public.
    It's funny how the Russians always seem to zero in on Britain, like we're the real enemy number 1. I suspect it's a peer rivalry thing: they are not so stupid as to think they can go toe to toe with the USA anymore but the Brits are a more realistic target where they share a long history of mutual Cold War espionage, and still Anglo Saxon like the Americans. No real incentive to try to be nice unlike their relationship with Germany. If you're too weak to challenge the big guy, you beat up the sidekick.
    I think Iran has done the same thing before (albeit we have been pretty involved in decades gone by)
This discussion has been closed.