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Level of educational attainment – the great political divide – politicalbetting.com

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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Is Johnson still going to Keef? He must be livid that the Polish PM pulled off the stunt first.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    (Of course I'm making the rather silly assumption that they'd derive capability from possible threats, rather than from how shiny something is.)

    Well, that's the starting point but that focus becomes diffuse due to...

    Political imperatives that mean as much as possible has to be based in Scotland, it all has to be made in the UK and they have to keep funding things the Daily Mail comments section obsesses over like the BoBMF.

    Incompetence.

    Corruption.

    Inherent small-C conservatism of 1* ranks and up.
    I for one will never take the MoD seriously till they scrap the Red Arrows. And the Household Cavalry's equines. The forces are now so small that those are significant detriments.
    Soft power. the cavalry pays its way in increased tourism to London

    Also

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/03/19/horse-trading-riding-queen-ronald-reagans-price-backing-britain/

    Reagan structures a whole european tour round a riding photo op with HMQ

    [bonus titbit from that article: FO begged Queenie not to use thye words "special relationship, cos they loathe them. Quite right.]
    I didn't know the Armed Forces were part of the tourist industry ... and as for the good Mr Reagan, isn't that pony he is on one of HMtQ's stable, rather than the HC?
    If you consider that just about every country has a ceremonial element, for good PR, historical, recruitment and retention, yes tourist reasons among others then the UK having a ceremonial element which includes donkeys is not the great crime you think it might be.

    HC(av, btw) have their horses, the Micks have their wolfhound, the fusiliers their goat, and so on; many of the Scottish regiments don't even wear trousers on parade I mean how impractical is that and many if not most other regiments prance around in funny looking uniforms that would be out of place in, say, Estonia right now.
    Thanks. I don't know that wearing a kilt on special parade is quite as bad as wearing a whole horse and associated tack. PLus the kilt and sporran don't have to be fed and watered and de-shited day in day out.

    Oh yes, some need for ceremonial, and some interesting stuff coming up this morning. But it's when it starts to bite into the overall mission that I wonder - as with DA's point re the Arrows consuming 5% of the fast jet pilots etc. in a way which won't help keep them very current.

    Just struck btw by the way in which modern squaddies these days appear in public in the sandy equivalent of DPM - didn't they use to appear in public in plain khaki (green/brown, whatever, but unpatterned)? A cynic might think the MoD was trying to make them look more ally to make up for the cuts. But it does seem to be a wider military fashion worldwide. Even influencing some navies. Modern equivalent of the pelisse I daresay.
    We haven't been to war in quite some time and it's a way of reminding everyone, soldiers included, that the army does go to war, and this is how the army dressed in the most recent one of which.

    As for previously it was very rare for squaddies to appear in uniform in public and then it would I suppose have depended upon why. Plain khaki sounds like 1950s battledress when are we talking here. :smile:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Knighthood on its way to Nigel Casey.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid joins Rishi Sunak in having to argue that night is day on behalf of the prime minister over the Brexit/Ukraine row: "I don't accept that he was comparing the UK to Ukraine." Which is nonsense, of course. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1505807648448565250/photo/1

    So what interpretation did he offer for this ?

    "I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom, every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples.
    "When the British people voted for Brexit in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners.
    "It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself."...
    That both the UK and Ukraine are in the category of countries with a freedom loving people. That doesn’t mean that the UK is equivalent to Ukraine
    Yes, Boris’ quote about “Ukraine and Brexit” really isn’t that offensive. You can see what he’s trying to say. It was emotionally misjudged but not an obviously foolish or outrageous statement

    But the misjudgement (or canny trolling?) got his opponents to hyper-ventilate, which then made the news
    I’m cynical enough to go with canny trolling. The words were carefully chosen. You would hope for better, but that’s the PM the UK has. For now.
    You said exactly the same thing about the refugee cock up. If you don't like what you hear you call it trolling rather than accepting it is true. It is true as was the refugee issue. I'm not a troll. I don't even have a twitter account, but I was fully aware of the refugee issue and had an immediate reaction to Boris' statement.

    Doesn't look good if your reaction to everything you don't like is 'trolls'.
    @StillWaters my apologies, wrong person. Please ignore my post. Sorry.
    No problem. Just to be clear I think you were being trolled by Boris, not a troll yourself!

    On the refugee issue, I tend to view it as, initially, a combination of cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility. Where Patel was at fault was politically not realising it was a problem (I find it hard to believe that she could be personally unmoved by the situation) and being unable / unwilling to devote the focus and energy to sorting it out.

    I don't know how the new system works, so no idea whether the criticisms are justified, but it seems to be these are criticisms of execution rather than of principle at this point, so definitely an improvement. Let's hope that it works.

    (The only person on here I accuse of being a troll is Heathener. Because she is. A spinner of Putin-preferred lines with a compromised VPN that is on an anti-spamming blacklist and was also used by two previous trolls)
    Re your comments on cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility I am sure you are right. FYI I get involved in numerous campaigns where individuals and groups have been badly or unfairly treated by Govt departments (nothing to do with politics). The level of incompetence is mind boggling. However what I do find is a massive amount of resources are then put into avoiding taking any action or making changes often disproportionate to any cost involved. We see these scandals arise over and over again. There are many more at a lower level of seriousness.

    Also for those who think we gained freedoms by leaving the EU, our ombudsman offerings are very flawed with lots of gaps that people and groups fall through. Private member's bills with cross party support invariably fail to fill these gaps. The last and effective resolution was the ECJ has now gone, so many groups are left in limbo with nobody to investigate.
    Eh? We are still subject to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR, our domestic courts can be asked to and do enforce ECHR rights and they are a part of our domestic law.

    UK cases to the ECJ were comparatively few and mainly focused on environmental and employment issues where it was claimed that the UK was either not meeting the relevant standard or had failed to transpose it correctly. There is an interesting analysis of UK cases before the ECJ here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

    Domestic courts are still required to enforce these laws unless they have been changed and there are almost no examples of this so far.
    David, I don't want to bore people online with this but I am involved in pension campaigns where this is an issue. We have had a number of successes in the ECJ, but these will now stop. We have also tried to get the law changed on a number of occasions with all party support and also support from the Parliamentary Ombudsman whose hands are tied so would like to see a change in the law, but these are always opposed by Governments. There are cases which just fall through the gaps. In the case of pension and mortgage cases you can fall fail of the limitation act, which is daft for a mortgage or pension. The FOS will ignore the limitation act, but the PHSO won't because they are legally bound so if you come under that jurisdiction you are stuffed (random result). PHSO also can't investigate GAD so if that is an issue you are stuffed, although an exception was made for Equitable Life, but nobody else. The PO has done an awful job re the PPF and again hides behind the Limitation Act. Ex civil servants can fall between the PHSO and the Whitley Council so fail to get an investigation.

    Is that enough of a pile of issues for you. Just about the only success achieved with this pile of crap is the ECJ.
    @BartholomewRoberts I noticed you liked David's comment. We have discussed this before. I don't know if you remember but you wished me good luck with the campaign I am involved in sometime ago. I have been involved in these campaigns for 10 years now. I am afraid real life isn't like theory. There are plenty of holes where people can't get justice. MPs are pretty powerless. We have all party support and the vast majority are Tories. It makes not a jot of difference, other than a deal being done in backroom, but if that happens it will be a one off. I am aware of similar campaigns relating to other groups.

    Every time you hear of a scandal (Windrush, blood contamination, Equitable Life) remember there is a pile of others under the radar that are less serious that nobody hears of.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    edited March 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    I don't think there has been any lack of security cooperation from the UK side on this issue.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    Nazanin says the journey back home was "tough".

    She says she has seen five foreign secretaries come and go over the past six years, and at times she felt she couldn't trust them as they kept saying they would get her home.

    "How many foreign secretaries does it take?" she asks.

    She says what has happened now with her being freed "should have happened six years ago".
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid joins Rishi Sunak in having to argue that night is day on behalf of the prime minister over the Brexit/Ukraine row: "I don't accept that he was comparing the UK to Ukraine." Which is nonsense, of course. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1505807648448565250/photo/1

    So what interpretation did he offer for this ?

    "I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom, every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples.
    "When the British people voted for Brexit in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners.
    "It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself."...
    That both the UK and Ukraine are in the category of countries with a freedom loving people. That doesn’t mean that the UK is equivalent to Ukraine
    Yes, Boris’ quote about “Ukraine and Brexit” really isn’t that offensive. You can see what he’s trying to say. It was emotionally misjudged but not an obviously foolish or outrageous statement

    But the misjudgement (or canny trolling?) got his opponents to hyper-ventilate, which then made the news
    I’m cynical enough to go with canny trolling. The words were carefully chosen. You would hope for better, but that’s the PM the UK has. For now.
    You said exactly the same thing about the refugee cock up. If you don't like what you hear you call it trolling rather than accepting it is true. It is true as was the refugee issue. I'm not a troll. I don't even have a twitter account, but I was fully aware of the refugee issue and had an immediate reaction to Boris' statement.

    Doesn't look good if your reaction to everything you don't like is 'trolls'.
    @StillWaters my apologies, wrong person. Please ignore my post. Sorry.
    No problem. Just to be clear I think you were being trolled by Boris, not a troll yourself!

    On the refugee issue, I tend to view it as, initially, a combination of cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility. Where Patel was at fault was politically not realising it was a problem (I find it hard to believe that she could be personally unmoved by the situation) and being unable / unwilling to devote the focus and energy to sorting it out.

    I don't know how the new system works, so no idea whether the criticisms are justified, but it seems to be these are criticisms of execution rather than of principle at this point, so definitely an improvement. Let's hope that it works.

    (The only person on here I accuse of being a troll is Heathener. Because she is. A spinner of Putin-preferred lines with a compromised VPN that is on an anti-spamming blacklist and was also used by two previous trolls)
    Re your comments on cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility I am sure you are right. FYI I get involved in numerous campaigns where individuals and groups have been badly or unfairly treated by Govt departments (nothing to do with politics). The level of incompetence is mind boggling. However what I do find is a massive amount of resources are then put into avoiding taking any action or making changes often disproportionate to any cost involved. We see these scandals arise over and over again. There are many more at a lower level of seriousness.

    Also for those who think we gained freedoms by leaving the EU, our ombudsman offerings are very flawed with lots of gaps that people and groups fall through. Private member's bills with cross party support invariably fail to fill these gaps. The last and effective resolution was the ECJ has now gone, so many groups are left in limbo with nobody to investigate.
    Eh? We are still subject to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR, our domestic courts can be asked to and do enforce ECHR rights and they are a part of our domestic law.

    UK cases to the ECJ were comparatively few and mainly focused on environmental and employment issues where it was claimed that the UK was either not meeting the relevant standard or had failed to transpose it correctly. There is an interesting analysis of UK cases before the ECJ here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

    Domestic courts are still required to enforce these laws unless they have been changed and there are almost no examples of this so far.
    David, I don't want to bore people online with this but I am involved in pension campaigns where this is an issue. We have had a number of successes in the ECJ, but these will now stop. We have also tried to get the law changed on a number of occasions with all party support and also support from the Parliamentary Ombudsman whose hands are tied so would like to see a change in the law, but these are always opposed by Governments. There are cases which just fall through the gaps. In the case of pension and mortgage cases you can fall fail of the limitation act, which is daft for a mortgage or pension. The FOS will ignore the limitation act, but the PHSO won't because they are legally bound so if you come under that jurisdiction you are stuffed (random result). PHSO also can't investigate GAD so if that is an issue you are stuffed, although an exception was made for Equitable Life, but nobody else. The PO has done an awful job re the PPF and again hides behind the Limitation Act. Ex civil servants can fall between the PHSO and the Whitley Council so fail to get an investigation.

    Is that enough of a pile of issues for you. Just about the only success achieved with this pile of crap is the ECJ.
    @BartholomewRoberts I noticed you liked David's comment. We have discussed this before. I don't know if you remember but you wished me good luck with the campaign I am involved in sometime ago. I have been involved in these campaigns for 10 years now. I am afraid real life isn't like theory. There are plenty of holes where people can't get justice. MPs are pretty powerless. We have all party support and the vast majority are Tories. It makes not a jot of difference, other than a deal being done in backroom, but if that happens it will be a one off. I am aware of similar campaigns relating to other groups.

    Every time you hear of a scandal (Windrush, blood contamination, Equitable Life) remember there is a pile of others under the radar that are less serious that nobody hears of.
    If Parliament isn't doing its job, it should be held to account better. Whether that be through domestic media, Parliament or domestic courts.

    I don't believe we need the ECJ to do any of that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    edited March 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    No prizes for guessing which episode of Polish-Russian history Medvedev omits:

    This morning, 🇷🇺Dmitry Medvedev decided to post a lengthy letter 🇵🇱"On Poland" - it is a curious mix of Soviet and pan-Slavic mythology with mockery, dire criticism and veiled threats against Poland - here are the key points 🧵

    https://twitter.com/maxfras/status/1505843869707116547

    If Vladolf attacks Poland then we go to war. It is 1939 redux.

    Russian proverb (which doesn’t rhyme in English): A chicken isn't a bird and Poland isn't a country.

    There is also a wildly offensive variant about women.
    Ha, just read a version of that proverb in a piece by the BBC’s Allan Little!
    Pretty good I think, conclusion mainly that virtually all our leaders have been dumb ****s. Interesting to be reminded of a period when Yeltsin was a player rather than the drunken comedy act which is pretty all he seems to be in the collective memory nowadays.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60767454
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    I have no idea what the outlook shortcuts are, but if that's wrong I think we can guess what she meant.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    Search function, within text.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    No, security in Europe is done via NATO which the UK remains a full partner in.

    If Charles Michel is trying to shoehorn the EU onto NATO's territory then that's him that is clowning around.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    Sean_F said:

    FWIW, I think if Finland or Sweden were attacked, we would find ourselves in a shooting war with Russia. And that's why neither country will be attacked.

    I'm not so sure about that. In fact, I think Finland is in a very invidious position. They look as if they might join NATO, but haven't actually done so. Possibly the worst of all worlds.

    Now represents, theoretically, an opportunity for Putin to act which may not be available later. Extremely unlikely we may think, but who knows what the thinking is in the bunker.

    NATO is a red line. If anyone attempts to invade they get incinerated by NATO air power. Not so, Finland. Membership brings benefits.
    Hmmm. I'm inclined to think that it is a mistake to continue making it clear to Putin / Russia that they still have hope of succeeding in Ukraine.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    (Of course I'm making the rather silly assumption that they'd derive capability from possible threats, rather than from how shiny something is.)

    Well, that's the starting point but that focus becomes diffuse due to...

    Political imperatives that mean as much as possible has to be based in Scotland, it all has to be made in the UK and they have to keep funding things the Daily Mail comments section obsesses over like the BoBMF.

    Incompetence.

    Corruption.

    Inherent small-C conservatism of 1* ranks and up.
    I for one will never take the MoD seriously till they scrap the Red Arrows. And the Household Cavalry's equines. The forces are now so small that those are significant detriments.
    Soft power. the cavalry pays its way in increased tourism to London

    Also

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/03/19/horse-trading-riding-queen-ronald-reagans-price-backing-britain/

    Reagan structures a whole european tour round a riding photo op with HMQ

    [bonus titbit from that article: FO begged Queenie not to use thye words "special relationship, cos they loathe them. Quite right.]
    I didn't know the Armed Forces were part of the tourist industry ... and as for the good Mr Reagan, isn't that pony he is on one of HMtQ's stable, rather than the HC?
    If you consider that just about every country has a ceremonial element, for good PR, historical, recruitment and retention, yes tourist reasons among others then the UK having a ceremonial element which includes donkeys is not the great crime you think it might be.

    HC(av, btw) have their horses, the Micks have their wolfhound, the fusiliers their goat, and so on; many of the Scottish regiments don't even wear trousers on parade I mean how impractical is that and many if not most other regiments prance around in funny looking uniforms that would be out of place in, say, Estonia right now.
    Thanks. I don't know that wearing a kilt on special parade is quite as bad as wearing a whole horse and associated tack. PLus the kilt and sporran don't have to be fed and watered and de-shited day in day out.

    Oh yes, some need for ceremonial, and some interesting stuff coming up this morning. But it's when it starts to bite into the overall mission that I wonder - as with DA's point re the Arrows consuming 5% of the fast jet pilots etc. in a way which won't help keep them very current.

    Just struck btw by the way in which modern squaddies these days appear in public in the sandy equivalent of DPM - didn't they use to appear in public in plain khaki (green/brown, whatever, but unpatterned)? A cynic might think the MoD was trying to make them look more ally to make up for the cuts. But it does seem to be a wider military fashion worldwide. Even influencing some navies. Modern equivalent of the pelisse I daresay.
    We haven't been to war in quite some time and it's a way of reminding everyone, soldiers included, that the army does go to war, and this is how the army dressed in the most recent one of which.

    As for previously it was very rare for squaddies to appear in uniform in public and then it would I suppose have depended upon why. Plain khaki sounds like 1950s battledress when are we talking here. :smile:
    1970s, 1980s.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    IanB2 said:

    Nazanin says the journey back home was "tough".

    She says she has seen five foreign secretaries come and go over the past six years, and at times she felt she couldn't trust them as they kept saying they would get her home.

    "How many foreign secretaries does it take?" she asks.

    She says what has happened now with her being freed "should have happened six years ago".

    Worrying development that the House of Commons authorities appear to have let a Labour MP draw a blacklist of parliamentary reporters to the Nazanin press conference and then used their ample resources to enforce it.

    Number of outlets banned from press conference today.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1505877812414226434
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Farooq said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:


    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    Treating civilians as combatants on the basis that they haven’t fled a city by your bogus deadline is about as war crime-y as it gets.

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1505655988405350403

    Say what you will about Putin and his acolytes (and as the old joke goes, in Russia you cannot), but when they decide to go full Nazi they commit to it.
    They are going full Stalinist. The seizure of people and making them disappear far away, executions, lists of people being picked up etc., starving people into submission etc. They did not need to learn this from the Nazis. They simply need to repeat what previous Russian leaders did in their own recent history.

    Constantly referring to this regime as Nazi-like is wrong because it somehow assumes that Russia had to learn all this appalling behaviour from others when the truth is that it has behaved appallingly to its own and other people in exactly this way. It is copying its own playbook not another country's.
    That's a pretty strange post, given that the "intellectual" inspiration for later Putinism have been the likes of Dugin and Ilyin, two bona fide fascists.
    I don't really feel the need to correct you if you want to trace a line from Putin back to Stalin, but telling people that they're wrong to point out the fascist underpinning of Putin's regime is strange when it's probably the most accurate descriptor.
    There is nothing strange about pointing out that Putin is copying what Stalin did. What is strange is the need to refer to the Nazis when describing Russia's behaviour when there are direct examples of exactly the same behaviour in Russia's own history. It's as if there is a need to downplay the very obvious likenesses between Putin and earlier Russian leaders, specifically Stalin, not least because Putin himself has praised what Stalin achieved and bemoaned the loss of the Russian Empire he created.

    The Nazis were not the sole embodiment of evil in 20th century Europe. Stalinism and what he got the Soviets to do were quite as evil. Putin may choose to airbrush his and Soviet crimes from history. We in the West should not.
    Having just finished Anne Applebaum's "Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" the parallels are striking - down to the same lies.
    Certainly Stalin found it useful to break the Ukranian peasant class, but the extraction of grain was also key to his industrialisation programme. Not just to feed his new urban industrial workers, but also to export. Grain exports were one of his few sources of Foreign exchange, and that was essential to restructure an agricultural economy into an industrial one. Starving Ukraine served two purposes.
    On that note, I see the Russians stole 5 ships of Ukrainian grain yesterday. Perhaps they are attempting Holodomor 2.0

    There’s a column in the NYT which says Putin’s new plan is to create so many refugees, pouring into the EU/NATO, that the West pressures Zelenskyy into agreeing a peace deal that looks good for Putin

    Sounds plausible. 10m Ukes have already been displaced inside and outside their country. It might work, as well
    He might get a peace deal by that route (though I doubt it). Removal of sanctions is another matter.

    He is utterly trashing his country, financially, morally and reputationally.
    The way I see it, is this. Putin's Regime cannot go down any further in our estimation. The Wayne Couzens of countries. Beyond forgiveness or redemption.

    However, we can't do anything more than we are doing. The US has already said that they won't intervene. Russia still has nukes, wheat and oil; there will be many countries outside the west willing to deal with them - almost irrespective of what they do in Ukraine.

    Now that they have found themselves in this position, there are no limits exist on their atrocities. They can just go ahead and kill and enslave Ukraine. They will just laugh at the idea of war crimes, because they don't have any interest in courts or justice. They have crossed a rubicon, like a serial killer - what's the difference between 2 and 20 victims?

    No one believed 3 weeks ago that Russia would bomb civilians. The idea that something like Mariupol could happen was beyond contemplation. If there is no hope of a client state in Ukraine, or any sort of conventional victory, and they are utterly condemned by the 'west' why wouldn't they just utterly crush and ruin the country? Plunder its resources etc. The nature of global inequality is such that there will still be many countries willing to deal with them.

    I don't think this is being alarmist or being dramatic; I think it is a very likely course of events. It seems that we are being drawn, inexorably and inevitably, in to war with Russia; because the situation described above is morally intolerable. It becomes a battle for the future of civilisation.
    Destroying cities is what they do.

    Aleppo

    image

    Grozny

    image

    All that is true. But the aims of those wars were different. Both were 'two sided' conflicts. They are not all that different to the wars fought by the UK and the US. So whilst the methods were abhorrent, they are not really comparable.

    The war in Ukraine is different, in that it is overtly being driven by an idea of imperial expansion. If the model works in Ukraine, then why would it stop there?
    As NATO troops are in NATO nations.

    Hence Putin is unlikely to expand beyond Ukraine or any non NATO member seeking to join NATO
    I agree. Other than the obvious reason, it is now apparent he would get absolutely stuffed. It's interesting to compare this now to the past when it was assumed Russian forces would only take a few days overrun Europe.
    Despite years of defence cuts, it's clear that the military strength of a united NATO is terrifying.

    Yep - you’d back us over them every day if the week. But in three years Trump or an acolyte is likely to be US president. That will change plenty. If Putin can hold on until then he may be home free.

    Trump is now saying he would 'bomb the shit out of Russia' over its Ukraine invasion using jets with Chinese flags put on them.

    Biden by contrast has ruled out a no fly zone over Ukraine
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/07/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-jets-chinese
    Actions speak louder than words. Trump's words are especially meaningless. Actions we can but guess at, but his history is not encouraging.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    (Of course I'm making the rather silly assumption that they'd derive capability from possible threats, rather than from how shiny something is.)

    Well, that's the starting point but that focus becomes diffuse due to...

    Political imperatives that mean as much as possible has to be based in Scotland, it all has to be made in the UK and they have to keep funding things the Daily Mail comments section obsesses over like the BoBMF.

    Incompetence.

    Corruption.

    Inherent small-C conservatism of 1* ranks and up.
    I for one will never take the MoD seriously till they scrap the Red Arrows. And the Household Cavalry's equines. The forces are now so small that those are significant detriments.
    Soft power. the cavalry pays its way in increased tourism to London

    Also

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/03/19/horse-trading-riding-queen-ronald-reagans-price-backing-britain/

    Reagan structures a whole european tour round a riding photo op with HMQ

    [bonus titbit from that article: FO begged Queenie not to use thye words "special relationship, cos they loathe them. Quite right.]
    I didn't know the Armed Forces were part of the tourist industry ... and as for the good Mr Reagan, isn't that pony he is on one of HMtQ's stable, rather than the HC?
    If you consider that just about every country has a ceremonial element, for good PR, historical, recruitment and retention, yes tourist reasons among others then the UK having a ceremonial element which includes donkeys is not the great crime you think it might be.

    HC(av, btw) have their horses, the Micks have their wolfhound, the fusiliers their goat, and so on; many of the Scottish regiments don't even wear trousers on parade I mean how impractical is that and many if not most other regiments prance around in funny looking uniforms that would be out of place in, say, Estonia right now.
    Thanks. I don't know that wearing a kilt on special parade is quite as bad as wearing a whole horse and associated tack. PLus the kilt and sporran don't have to be fed and watered and de-shited day in day out.

    Oh yes, some need for ceremonial, and some interesting stuff coming up this morning. But it's when it starts to bite into the overall mission that I wonder - as with DA's point re the Arrows consuming 5% of the fast jet pilots etc. in a way which won't help keep them very current.

    Just struck btw by the way in which modern squaddies these days appear in public in the sandy equivalent of DPM - didn't they use to appear in public in plain khaki (green/brown, whatever, but unpatterned)? A cynic might think the MoD was trying to make them look more ally to make up for the cuts. But it does seem to be a wider military fashion worldwide. Even influencing some navies. Modern equivalent of the pelisse I daresay.
    Re the plain trousers they all seemed to wear plain green “lightweights” with either a DPM jacket/smock or one of those horrific scratchy jumpers. dPM trousers were more for actual “work”. Think it changed when the new pattern camouflage came in with Iraq 2 (?) - probably realised the plain lightwieights were absolutely pointless.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    IshmaelZ said:

    max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1h
    Channel One has finally responded to Marina Ovsyannikova’s on-air protest.

    Kirill Kleimyonov, head of the news division, accuses her of being a British spy.

    He said she has “betrayed [her] country and all of us … coldly, duplicitously, for a bonus.”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1505859269522079746

    ===

    Incredible. As you know he knows he is lying. Kinda sums up the whole regime really.

    I make it a rule never to believe a woman is spying for us until Boris confirms it in public.
    It's funny how the Russians always seem to zero in on Britain, like we're the real enemy number 1. I suspect it's a peer rivalry thing: they are not so stupid as to think they can go toe to toe with the USA anymore but the Brits are a more realistic target where they share a long history of mutual Cold War espionage, and still Anglo Saxon like the Americans. No real incentive to try to be nice unlike their relationship with Germany. If you're too weak to challenge the big guy, you beat up the sidekick.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    Eu­rope hasn’t seen any­thing like this since World War II. Rus­sians are dig­ging in around cities as if they plan a long siege. Civil­ian ca­su­al­ties aren’t in­ci­den­tal. They are cen­tral to the dic­ta­tor’s war strat­egy.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1505842407417516032
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    Search function, within text.
    Not in Outlook.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    No, security in Europe is done via NATO which the UK remains a full partner in.

    If Charles Michel is trying to shoehorn the EU onto NATO's territory then that's him that is clowning around.
    Membership of a supranational organisation where we can be sent to our deaths = fine, no threat to sovereignty.

    Membership of a supranational organisation which seeks to align widget standards across industries = intolerable imposition on our sovereignty.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    EU, not Europe :smile: .

    I'd draw a larger canvas than that - Merkel's Ostpolitik was the disaster, which goes beyond energy. TBF to Brussels, Merkel pushed NS2 through in the of Euco opposition, including legal action in the EU Court.

    There's a piece around at the moment about arms sales to Russia in the period 2015-2020, which is startling.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523



    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?

    I don't know (evading fighting for either side would be tempting if possible), and I'm reluctant to pass judgment 80 years later on anyone in that situation, especially as I'm no kind of expert on Ukraine - my knowledge of Bandera comes largely from the Wikipedia article.

    My mother's hostility to Ukraine was not so much, as I said, with Bandera's decision to ally with the Nazis, or even with his anti-semitism - even she recognised that we can't really judge countries on the decisions of individuals. What she found unforgivable was that he was commemorated as a hero right up to the time of her death, as I understand remains the case up to the present day.

    I don't offer that as an excuse for Putin launching a war, of course, I was replying to a question about how come Russians and Ukrainians are at loggerheads when they seem ethnically quite similar. The past - Holodomor and Nazi collaboration alike - casts far longer shadows than is understood by most people in Britain. I wish it were otherwise.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    TimS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1h
    Channel One has finally responded to Marina Ovsyannikova’s on-air protest.

    Kirill Kleimyonov, head of the news division, accuses her of being a British spy.

    He said she has “betrayed [her] country and all of us … coldly, duplicitously, for a bonus.”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1505859269522079746

    ===

    Incredible. As you know he knows he is lying. Kinda sums up the whole regime really.

    I make it a rule never to believe a woman is spying for us until Boris confirms it in public.
    It's funny how the Russians always seem to zero in on Britain, like we're the real enemy number 1. I suspect it's a peer rivalry thing: they are not so stupid as to think they can go toe to toe with the USA anymore but the Brits are a more realistic target where they share a long history of mutual Cold War espionage, and still Anglo Saxon like the Americans. No real incentive to try to be nice unlike their relationship with Germany. If you're too weak to challenge the big guy, you beat up the sidekick.
    It goes all the way back to the Sidney Riley. A belief in the British being the ultimate in spies, among a certain type of paranoid Russian.

    There is a non-trivial chunk of the KGB/FSB/Whatever that still think the Cambridge Five were actually a brilliant triple agent program the British ran against Russia.....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    No, security in Europe is done via NATO which the UK remains a full partner in.

    If Charles Michel is trying to shoehorn the EU onto NATO's territory then that's him that is clowning around.
    So why is Boris humping Michel's leg like an overexcited spaniel wanting to shoehorn himself into this gathering of sclerotic no-marks on thursday?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    Search function, within text.
    Not in Outlook.
    Maybe they run outlook 365 on Chrome

    killer point, whatever.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid joins Rishi Sunak in having to argue that night is day on behalf of the prime minister over the Brexit/Ukraine row: "I don't accept that he was comparing the UK to Ukraine." Which is nonsense, of course. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1505807648448565250/photo/1

    So what interpretation did he offer for this ?

    "I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom, every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples.
    "When the British people voted for Brexit in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners.
    "It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself."...
    That both the UK and Ukraine are in the category of countries with a freedom loving people. That doesn’t mean that the UK is equivalent to Ukraine
    Yes, Boris’ quote about “Ukraine and Brexit” really isn’t that offensive. You can see what he’s trying to say. It was emotionally misjudged but not an obviously foolish or outrageous statement

    But the misjudgement (or canny trolling?) got his opponents to hyper-ventilate, which then made the news
    I’m cynical enough to go with canny trolling. The words were carefully chosen. You would hope for better, but that’s the PM the UK has. For now.
    You said exactly the same thing about the refugee cock up. If you don't like what you hear you call it trolling rather than accepting it is true. It is true as was the refugee issue. I'm not a troll. I don't even have a twitter account, but I was fully aware of the refugee issue and had an immediate reaction to Boris' statement.

    Doesn't look good if your reaction to everything you don't like is 'trolls'.
    @StillWaters my apologies, wrong person. Please ignore my post. Sorry.
    No problem. Just to be clear I think you were being trolled by Boris, not a troll yourself!

    On the refugee issue, I tend to view it as, initially, a combination of cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility. Where Patel was at fault was politically not realising it was a problem (I find it hard to believe that she could be personally unmoved by the situation) and being unable / unwilling to devote the focus and energy to sorting it out.

    I don't know how the new system works, so no idea whether the criticisms are justified, but it seems to be these are criticisms of execution rather than of principle at this point, so definitely an improvement. Let's hope that it works.

    (The only person on here I accuse of being a troll is Heathener. Because she is. A spinner of Putin-preferred lines with a compromised VPN that is on an anti-spamming blacklist and was also used by two previous trolls)
    Re your comments on cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility I am sure you are right. FYI I get involved in numerous campaigns where individuals and groups have been badly or unfairly treated by Govt departments (nothing to do with politics). The level of incompetence is mind boggling. However what I do find is a massive amount of resources are then put into avoiding taking any action or making changes often disproportionate to any cost involved. We see these scandals arise over and over again. There are many more at a lower level of seriousness.

    Also for those who think we gained freedoms by leaving the EU, our ombudsman offerings are very flawed with lots of gaps that people and groups fall through. Private member's bills with cross party support invariably fail to fill these gaps. The last and effective resolution was the ECJ has now gone, so many groups are left in limbo with nobody to investigate.
    Eh? We are still subject to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR, our domestic courts can be asked to and do enforce ECHR rights and they are a part of our domestic law.

    UK cases to the ECJ were comparatively few and mainly focused on environmental and employment issues where it was claimed that the UK was either not meeting the relevant standard or had failed to transpose it correctly. There is an interesting analysis of UK cases before the ECJ here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

    Domestic courts are still required to enforce these laws unless they have been changed and there are almost no examples of this so far.
    David, I don't want to bore people online with this but I am involved in pension campaigns where this is an issue. We have had a number of successes in the ECJ, but these will now stop. We have also tried to get the law changed on a number of occasions with all party support and also support from the Parliamentary Ombudsman whose hands are tied so would like to see a change in the law, but these are always opposed by Governments. There are cases which just fall through the gaps. In the case of pension and mortgage cases you can fall fail of the limitation act, which is daft for a mortgage or pension. The FOS will ignore the limitation act, but the PHSO won't because they are legally bound so if you come under that jurisdiction you are stuffed (random result). PHSO also can't investigate GAD so if that is an issue you are stuffed, although an exception was made for Equitable Life, but nobody else. The PO has done an awful job re the PPF and again hides behind the Limitation Act. Ex civil servants can fall between the PHSO and the Whitley Council so fail to get an investigation.

    Is that enough of a pile of issues for you. Just about the only success achieved with this pile of crap is the ECJ.
    @BartholomewRoberts I noticed you liked David's comment. We have discussed this before. I don't know if you remember but you wished me good luck with the campaign I am involved in sometime ago. I have been involved in these campaigns for 10 years now. I am afraid real life isn't like theory. There are plenty of holes where people can't get justice. MPs are pretty powerless. We have all party support and the vast majority are Tories. It makes not a jot of difference, other than a deal being done in backroom, but if that happens it will be a one off. I am aware of similar campaigns relating to other groups.

    Every time you hear of a scandal (Windrush, blood contamination, Equitable Life) remember there is a pile of others under the radar that are less serious that nobody hears of.
    If Parliament isn't doing its job, it should be held to account better. Whether that be through domestic media, Parliament or domestic courts.

    I don't believe we need the ECJ to do any of that.
    It's cloud cuckoo land though. You are avoiding the point that there are plenty of injustice that fall through the cracks that are out of remit of domestic courts or ombudsman.

    We keep hearing of scandals where we say it must never happen again, yet it always does. Below these are loads more that are complex and lower profile so never hit the media. The ECJ is not a panacea, but it helped, many pensioners would now be in poverty if not for their decisions and through no fault of their own. Our Govt did nothing.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited March 2022
    TimS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    1h
    Channel One has finally responded to Marina Ovsyannikova’s on-air protest.

    Kirill Kleimyonov, head of the news division, accuses her of being a British spy.

    He said she has “betrayed [her] country and all of us … coldly, duplicitously, for a bonus.”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1505859269522079746

    ===

    Incredible. As you know he knows he is lying. Kinda sums up the whole regime really.

    I make it a rule never to believe a woman is spying for us until Boris confirms it in public.
    It's funny how the Russians always seem to zero in on Britain, like we're the real enemy number 1. I suspect it's a peer rivalry thing: they are not so stupid as to think they can go toe to toe with the USA anymore but the Brits are a more realistic target where they share a long history of mutual Cold War espionage, and still Anglo Saxon like the Americans. No real incentive to try to be nice unlike their relationship with Germany. If you're too weak to challenge the big guy, you beat up the sidekick.
    The tradition in Russia, since its encounters with MI6 after World War II, is very much to see Britain as the duplicitous "brain" of western power networks, oiling the wheels of diplomacy and espionage between various nations, and America as the brawn. This is why Dugin devoted such special mention to separating Britain from Europe in his "Foundations of Geopolitics", which became a manual for the Russian military from the late '90s onwards.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    No, security in Europe is done via NATO which the UK remains a full partner in.

    If Charles Michel is trying to shoehorn the EU onto NATO's territory then that's him that is clowning around.
    So why is Boris humping Michel's leg like an overexcited spaniel wanting to shoehorn himself into this gathering of sclerotic no-marks on thursday?
    Well Security is not done via NATO because not all EU members are NATO members (for multiple reasons).

    However the Western Europe consists of the EU, the UK, Norway Switzerland (usually neutral) and a few other very small countries.

    So if there are defence decisions that need to be made you can't just leave it to either NATO or the EU as both of them are missing some important countries.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    Snyder has published extensively on the Holocaust, and his conclusion was that the level of local participation - and the proportion of the Jewish population which was killed - related far more to the extent to which state institutions had been completely destroyed, than any pre-War measure of antisemitism in a given country.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    IanB2 said:

    Nazanin says the journey back home was "tough".

    She says she has seen five foreign secretaries come and go over the past six years, and at times she felt she couldn't trust them as they kept saying they would get her home.

    "How many foreign secretaries does it take?" she asks.

    She says what has happened now with her being freed "should have happened six years ago".

    Worrying development that the House of Commons authorities appear to have let a Labour MP draw a blacklist of parliamentary reporters to the Nazanin press conference and then used their ample resources to enforce it.

    Number of outlets banned from press conference today.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1505877812414226434
    This entire story hasn't put Boris in a particularly good light, so presumably the concern is that Boris's goons in the media will want to do a hit job on her.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    darkage said:

    I was vaguely sympathetic to Russia before the start of this. I am so glad that I never went particularly far down that rabbit hole.

    Anyone who has been supportive of the Russian Regime in the past must be feeling very stupid now.

    I was supportive of them in the past - it was silly of me to believe some of the more egregious propaganda. But I don't feel stupid supporting their intervention in Syria, because there I think there they were on the right side. Here, they are the aggressor and we've got it right to support the Government of Ukraine against them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    So despite sources briefing The Times that Boris Johnson regretted how his Ukraine/Brexit words had come across, his spokesman insists he won't withdraw them.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-ukraine-resisting-invasion-brexit_uk_62386a23e4b0c727d480ba24
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022
    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus ~15% going among people who are now 60+. And the ramp up was extremely steep in the early noughties i.e. people who are now 30-40s.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited March 2022

    IanB2 said:

    Nazanin says the journey back home was "tough".

    She says she has seen five foreign secretaries come and go over the past six years, and at times she felt she couldn't trust them as they kept saying they would get her home.

    "How many foreign secretaries does it take?" she asks.

    She says what has happened now with her being freed "should have happened six years ago".

    Worrying development that the House of Commons authorities appear to have let a Labour MP draw a blacklist of parliamentary reporters to the Nazanin press conference and then used their ample resources to enforce it.

    Number of outlets banned from press conference today.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1505877812414226434
    This entire story hasn't put Boris in a particularly good light, so presumably the concern is that Boris's goons in the media will want to do a hit job on her.
    What's it to do with him? This is a Labour MP (guessing fron context Siddiq?).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639
    Russians shooting at anti-occupation protesters in #Kherson:

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1505879929749217286?t=A0wjr1y4ukfEYQa2u9bbUQ&s=19
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    Blaming others.

    SNAFUUK
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639
    Scott_xP said:

    So despite sources briefing The Times that Boris Johnson regretted how his Ukraine/Brexit words had come across, his spokesman insists he won't withdraw them.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-ukraine-resisting-invasion-brexit_uk_62386a23e4b0c727d480ba24

    He never retracts or apologises. Why should the World King?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Egyptian inflation hits 10%. Central bank raises interest rate 1 point to 9.75%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited March 2022
    eek said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    No, security in Europe is done via NATO which the UK remains a full partner in.

    If Charles Michel is trying to shoehorn the EU onto NATO's territory then that's him that is clowning around.
    So why is Boris humping Michel's leg like an overexcited spaniel wanting to shoehorn himself into this gathering of sclerotic no-marks on thursday?
    Well Security is not done via NATO because not all EU members are NATO members (for multiple reasons).

    However the Western Europe consists of the EU, the UK, Norway Switzerland (usually neutral) and a few other very small countries.

    So if there are defence decisions that need to be made you can't just leave it to either NATO or the EU as both of them are missing some important countries.
    I think what's missing from that last comment is that the EU has been Balkanised on their response to Russia/Ukraine, and that there are still cracks below the surface.

    The same is imo possible in NATO.

    What happens if it is proposed that Ukraine 'volunteer legionnaires' are trained in Poland or Romania? Or even that a 'safe haven' be established under NATO protection in Western Ukraine - which may become a possibility / necessity if Putin is really deporting populations and sending his troops in with death-lists?

    Also, these are the next Presidents of the EU Council, after Macron. Change of style?


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Applicant said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is worth reading in full …highlights that B Johnson and others lied about the evacuation from Afghanistan and the wider administrative chaos …short and illuminating on many levels: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/107001/pdf

    Bloody hell

    this is the actual testimony of Josie Stewart. Fab stuff

    35. I cannot fathom why either Philip Barton or Nigel Casey would have intentionally lied to the
    Committee, but I believe that they must have done so both in the letter dated 17 January and in
    the oral testimony given on 25 January. I have tried to imagine but cannot conceive of any way
    this could have been an honest mistake. Nigel Casey explicitly testified that he had searched his
    emails and found nothing of relevance, yet when I searched my emails for “PM” and “Nowzad” I found more than one email referencing “the PM’s decision on Nowzad” and with Nigel Casey in
    copy. So the only possible explanations are that a) Nigel Casey had deleted his emails (which
    everyone who had worked on the Afghanistan crisis had been ordered by Diptel not to do); b)
    he did not know how to use the “CTRL-F” function in Outlook, or searched for something other
    than “PM” and “Nowzad”; c) he found the emails but somehow concluded they were not
    relevant, despite mentioning ‘the PM’s decision on Nowzad’; or d) he was lying.
    Why is forwarding a message relevant?
    It's about his lying about knowledge of how the decision was taken.
  • This Pen Farthing thing. I know why Johnson authorised the evac of the animals. Nothing to do with Carrie.

    If you look at the profiles of Johnson/Conservative supporters on twatter, about 80% of them will say in their bio they’re an animal lover and their pic’s often a badly taken selfie of a late-middle aged person with a dog, cat, cockatiel, pangolin, whatever.

    I love animals, got two dogs, fish, grew up with loads of pets. But it’s not something I’d consider being such a big part of me that I’d stick it in a social media bio.

    Johnson is once again displaying his razor sharp political instincts.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    After Russia gave OneWeb a list of conditional demands for launching the company's satellites, OneWeb is turning to SpaceX for its launches https://twitter.com/lorengrush/status/1505893311311192064/photo/1
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid joins Rishi Sunak in having to argue that night is day on behalf of the prime minister over the Brexit/Ukraine row: "I don't accept that he was comparing the UK to Ukraine." Which is nonsense, of course. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1505807648448565250/photo/1

    So what interpretation did he offer for this ?

    "I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom, every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples.
    "When the British people voted for Brexit in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners.
    "It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself."...
    That both the UK and Ukraine are in the category of countries with a freedom loving people. That doesn’t mean that the UK is equivalent to Ukraine
    Yes, Boris’ quote about “Ukraine and Brexit” really isn’t that offensive. You can see what he’s trying to say. It was emotionally misjudged but not an obviously foolish or outrageous statement

    But the misjudgement (or canny trolling?) got his opponents to hyper-ventilate, which then made the news
    I’m cynical enough to go with canny trolling. The words were carefully chosen. You would hope for better, but that’s the PM the UK has. For now.
    You said exactly the same thing about the refugee cock up. If you don't like what you hear you call it trolling rather than accepting it is true. It is true as was the refugee issue. I'm not a troll. I don't even have a twitter account, but I was fully aware of the refugee issue and had an immediate reaction to Boris' statement.

    Doesn't look good if your reaction to everything you don't like is 'trolls'.
    @StillWaters my apologies, wrong person. Please ignore my post. Sorry.
    No problem. Just to be clear I think you were being trolled by Boris, not a troll yourself!

    On the refugee issue, I tend to view it as, initially, a combination of cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility. Where Patel was at fault was politically not realising it was a problem (I find it hard to believe that she could be personally unmoved by the situation) and being unable / unwilling to devote the focus and energy to sorting it out.

    I don't know how the new system works, so no idea whether the criticisms are justified, but it seems to be these are criticisms of execution rather than of principle at this point, so definitely an improvement. Let's hope that it works.

    (The only person on here I accuse of being a troll is Heathener. Because she is. A spinner of Putin-preferred lines with a compromised VPN that is on an anti-spamming blacklist and was also used by two previous trolls)
    Re your comments on cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility I am sure you are right. FYI I get involved in numerous campaigns where individuals and groups have been badly or unfairly treated by Govt departments (nothing to do with politics). The level of incompetence is mind boggling. However what I do find is a massive amount of resources are then put into avoiding taking any action or making changes often disproportionate to any cost involved. We see these scandals arise over and over again. There are many more at a lower level of seriousness.

    Also for those who think we gained freedoms by leaving the EU, our ombudsman offerings are very flawed with lots of gaps that people and groups fall through. Private member's bills with cross party support invariably fail to fill these gaps. The last and effective resolution was the ECJ has now gone, so many groups are left in limbo with nobody to investigate.
    Eh? We are still subject to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR, our domestic courts can be asked to and do enforce ECHR rights and they are a part of our domestic law.

    UK cases to the ECJ were comparatively few and mainly focused on environmental and employment issues where it was claimed that the UK was either not meeting the relevant standard or had failed to transpose it correctly. There is an interesting analysis of UK cases before the ECJ here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

    Domestic courts are still required to enforce these laws unless they have been changed and there are almost no examples of this so far.
    David, I don't want to bore people online with this but I am involved in pension campaigns where this is an issue. We have had a number of successes in the ECJ, but these will now stop. We have also tried to get the law changed on a number of occasions with all party support and also support from the Parliamentary Ombudsman whose hands are tied so would like to see a change in the law, but these are always opposed by Governments. There are cases which just fall through the gaps. In the case of pension and mortgage cases you can fall fail of the limitation act, which is daft for a mortgage or pension. The FOS will ignore the limitation act, but the PHSO won't because they are legally bound so if you come under that jurisdiction you are stuffed (random result). PHSO also can't investigate GAD so if that is an issue you are stuffed, although an exception was made for Equitable Life, but nobody else. The PO has done an awful job re the PPF and again hides behind the Limitation Act. Ex civil servants can fall between the PHSO and the Whitley Council so fail to get an investigation.

    Is that enough of a pile of issues for you. Just about the only success achieved with this pile of crap is the ECJ.
    @BartholomewRoberts I noticed you liked David's comment. We have discussed this before. I don't know if you remember but you wished me good luck with the campaign I am involved in sometime ago. I have been involved in these campaigns for 10 years now. I am afraid real life isn't like theory. There are plenty of holes where people can't get justice. MPs are pretty powerless. We have all party support and the vast majority are Tories. It makes not a jot of difference, other than a deal being done in backroom, but if that happens it will be a one off. I am aware of similar campaigns relating to other groups.

    Every time you hear of a scandal (Windrush, blood contamination, Equitable Life) remember there is a pile of others under the radar that are less serious that nobody hears of.
    If Parliament isn't doing its job, it should be held to account better. Whether that be through domestic media, Parliament or domestic courts.

    I don't believe we need the ECJ to do any of that.
    It's cloud cuckoo land though. You are avoiding the point that there are plenty of injustice that fall through the cracks that are out of remit of domestic courts or ombudsman.

    We keep hearing of scandals where we say it must never happen again, yet it always does. Below these are loads more that are complex and lower profile so never hit the media. The ECJ is not a panacea, but it helped, many pensioners would now be in poverty if not for their decisions and through no fault of their own. Our Govt did nothing.
    Here is another example: Event 1996, statue limitation expires in 2011 for legal action regardless of aware of issue or not. Event in 2012 it becomes aware of negligence in 1996. QC says rock solid case if not for statute of limitation. Outside of remit of all ombudsmen. Ombudsman asks Govt to let them investigate. Govt refuses.

    3000 pensioners lose much of their pension.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.
    On your first point, 10% would have taken to the hills to fight to the death, after the event another 50% would have said they were also in the hills. I imagine that proportion applies roughly to most resistance movements.
    While living in Sunderland around 1960 I met several people who claimed to have been on the Jarrow March 24 years earlier. Some must have taken time out from school.
    Same applies to legendary Pistols & Clash concerts, more people at them than at Live Aid by numbers of anecdotes.
    Many said that the Blind Beggar pub and the balcony at the former Iranian Embassy should have been reused as Olympic venues.

    Both have, according to sworn statements ("On my mothers grave"...), a capacity of millions.
    When Dylan went electric - that was a MASSIVE gig. Millions there.

    I was actually - and honestly - at the Iranian Embassy siege. I was part of it. It was right next to my halls at Imperial and we used to loiter outside and watch developments. Somebody wheeled a piano out there, would you believe, and we used to have a singsong. Students.

    And - spooky or what - I've been to the Blind Beggar too. During my Lehmans time, I took off one lunchtime to go see it and have a drink there. It was an odd hobby of mine back then - visiting London pubs where something notorious had happened. In that one, as some will know, Ronnie Kray shot down and killed George Cornell. You'd never know, though, based on when I visited. Pretty normal looking boozer. No 'edge' in it at all. Even doing food.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    3h
    Eu­rope hasn’t seen any­thing like this since World War II. Rus­sians are dig­ging in around cities as if they plan a long siege. Civil­ian ca­su­al­ties aren’t in­ci­den­tal. They are cen­tral to the dic­ta­tor’s war strat­egy.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1505842407417516032

    Not much insight there, Andrew.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639

    This Pen Farthing thing. I know why Johnson authorised the evac of the animals. Nothing to do with Carrie.

    If you look at the profiles of Johnson/Conservative supporters on twatter, about 80% of them will say in their bio they’re an animal lover and their pic’s often a badly taken selfie of a late-middle aged person with a dog, cat, cockatiel, pangolin, whatever.

    I love animals, got two dogs, fish, grew up with loads of pets. But it’s not something I’d consider being such a big part of me that I’d stick it in a social media bio.

    Johnson is once again displaying his razor sharp political instincts.

    I suspect more Britons love animals than asylum seekers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kinabalu said:



    I wonder what they'd choose to spend the money on if the public and political mood delivers them a big increase in budget?

    Probably...

    Reverse the cut in the E-7 buy
    Restore SEAD capability lost with Tornado by joining the Germans in Eurofighter ECR
    Throw money at Ajax until it works
    Buy a tracked APC/IFV to replace the cancelled Warrior CSP
    More A400M to reverse the recent cut in tactical airlift
    Accelerate AS90 and MLRS replacement to this decade
    Loads of Bayraktar TB2 because that's fashionable
    More StarStreak

    Can't really do much for the RN as there is nowhere to build any more ships and it's not politically possible to build them outside the UK.
    For all forces, increased stocks of munitions might be a comparatively cheap and quick way to increase the effectiveness of existing equipment ?
    There isn't actually a surfeit of secure sites to store it giving the MoD's mania for selling real estate (except any of its 17 golf courses) but, yes, that would be an excellent proposal.
    What's wrong with using Boxer off the shelf instead of messing around with Ajax? I've not been keeping up but can only assume MoD doesn't want to admit the Germans are better at the (wheeled) panzer business than UK plc. Or maybe less in the way of sweeties such as directorships.
    Anther issue is absurd lists of requirements that are utterly unique to the UK. Such as the insistence on retaining rifled barrels for tank guns because of HESH. Even after FN demonstrated a finned projectile from a smoothbore which could do HESH
    I thought we had an artificially slow build rate for surface ships imposed by the Treasury, which increased their costs, in order to retain a skills' base.

    I don't see why that cannot be sped up. They could even build some more - perhaps even half way back to the number we were to have before they were halved (or whatever it was).

    There's also quite the catalogue of salami slicing delays to save relative pin-money publicised a few week ago.

    I think the Boxer/Ajax issue is that we want both tracked and wheeled.

    There are good off the shelf alternatives for Ajax, however.
    The replacement 155mm self propelled gun replacements could also be brought forward.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....
    I come to PB for accurate information and informed debate. I find this particular type of article very frustrating, as it isn't actually telling us anything we don't know i.e. age disparity in voting intentions, and we have done the flaws in it many many times. Its the equivalent of the continued early reporting of COVID deaths focusing on date reported rather than date of death.

    I would be interested in seeing carefully crafted stats where there is a control for age. I would presume Tories might well still be behind, but none of us actually know what the size of that difference is.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    This Pen Farthing thing. I know why Johnson authorised the evac of the animals. Nothing to do with Carrie.

    If you look at the profiles of Johnson/Conservative supporters on twatter, about 80% of them will say in their bio they’re an animal lover and their pic’s often a badly taken selfie of a late-middle aged person with a dog, cat, cockatiel, pangolin, whatever.

    I love animals, got two dogs, fish, grew up with loads of pets. But it’s not something I’d consider being such a big part of me that I’d stick it in a social media bio.

    Johnson is once again displaying his razor sharp political instincts.

    I suspect more Britons love animals than asylum seekers.
    Quite, lovely woofie doggies vs dirty brown benefits claimants. No contest.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    “Independent country”
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.
    On your first point, 10% would have taken to the hills to fight to the death, after the event another 50% would have said they were also in the hills. I imagine that proportion applies roughly to most resistance movements.
    While living in Sunderland around 1960 I met several people who claimed to have been on the Jarrow March 24 years earlier. Some must have taken time out from school.
    Same applies to legendary Pistols & Clash concerts, more people at them than at Live Aid by numbers of anecdotes.
    Many said that the Blind Beggar pub and the balcony at the former Iranian Embassy should have been reused as Olympic venues.

    Both have, according to sworn statements ("On my mothers grave"...), a capacity of millions.
    When Dylan went electric - that was a MASSIVE gig. Millions there.

    I was actually - and honestly - at the Iranian Embassy siege. I was part of it. It was right next to my halls at Imperial and we used to loiter outside and watch developments. Somebody wheeled a piano out there, would you believe, and we used to have a singsong. Students.

    And - spooky or what - I've been to the Blind Beggar too. During my Lehmans time, I took off one lunchtime to go see it and have a drink there. It was an odd hobby of mine back then - visiting London pubs where something notorious had happened. In that one, as some will know, Ronnie Kray shot down and killed George Cornell. You'd never know, though, based on when I visited. Pretty normal looking boozer. No 'edge' in it at all. Even doing food.
    I've had a couple of pints there too. Legend has it that Ronnie took out Cornell just for calling him a fat poof; somewhat unsympathetically expressed but couldn't be said to be untruthful.
  • We've left the EU, what they do in terms of policy is now irrelevant to us, leave them alone
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    “Independent country”
    Freedom loving independent country surely.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited March 2022

    IanB2 said:

    Nazanin says the journey back home was "tough".

    She says she has seen five foreign secretaries come and go over the past six years, and at times she felt she couldn't trust them as they kept saying they would get her home.

    "How many foreign secretaries does it take?" she asks.

    She says what has happened now with her being freed "should have happened six years ago".

    Worrying development that the House of Commons authorities appear to have let a Labour MP draw a blacklist of parliamentary reporters to the Nazanin press conference and then used their ample resources to enforce it.

    Number of outlets banned from press conference today.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1505877812414226434
    Watching. Tulip saying some pungent things.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    edited March 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    After Russia gave OneWeb a list of conditional demands for launching the company's satellites, OneWeb is turning to SpaceX for its launches https://twitter.com/lorengrush/status/1505893311311192064/photo/1

    Old news.

    The moment that the Russian Space program committed suicide, the question was where to get replacement launches for the remaining phase 1 satellite. Phase II was already going on Indian launchers.

    SpaceX are the only launch provider with capacity. Or the capability to do anything inside 2 years.

    And they have another reason, aside from mere money. Various SpaceX hating companies are trying to sell the pitch (especially in the Congressional arena in the US) that their vertical integration gives them an unfair advantage, rather than actually come up with cheap launch themselves.

    If SpaceX launches satellites for a competitor (Starlink), that gives them a cast iron, throw-the-case-out-in-first-10-minutes rebuttal to such attacks.
  • How odd you missed this bit.

    but Labour more trusted on reducing cost of living
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.
    On your first point, 10% would have taken to the hills to fight to the death, after the event another 50% would have said they were also in the hills. I imagine that proportion applies roughly to most resistance movements.
    While living in Sunderland around 1960 I met several people who claimed to have been on the Jarrow March 24 years earlier. Some must have taken time out from school.
    Same applies to legendary Pistols & Clash concerts, more people at them than at Live Aid by numbers of anecdotes.
    Many said that the Blind Beggar pub and the balcony at the former Iranian Embassy should have been reused as Olympic venues.

    Both have, according to sworn statements ("On my mothers grave"...), a capacity of millions.
    When Dylan went electric - that was a MASSIVE gig. Millions there.

    I was actually - and honestly - at the Iranian Embassy siege. I was part of it. It was right next to my halls at Imperial and we used to loiter outside and watch developments. Somebody wheeled a piano out there, would you believe, and we used to have a singsong. Students.

    And - spooky or what - I've been to the Blind Beggar too. During my Lehmans time, I took off one lunchtime to go see it and have a drink there. It was an odd hobby of mine back then - visiting London pubs where something notorious had happened. In that one, as some will know, Ronnie Kray shot down and killed George Cornell. You'd never know, though, based on when I visited. Pretty normal looking boozer. No 'edge' in it at all. Even doing food.
    I've had a couple of pints there too. Legend has it that Ronnie took out Cornell just for calling him a fat poof; somewhat unsympathetically expressed but couldn't be said to be untruthful.
    Yep, Ron was both oversized and very much a member of the LGBTQ community.

    Although I guess with him, on the size, it WAS mainly muscle.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.
    On your first point, 10% would have taken to the hills to fight to the death, after the event another 50% would have said they were also in the hills. I imagine that proportion applies roughly to most resistance movements.
    While living in Sunderland around 1960 I met several people who claimed to have been on the Jarrow March 24 years earlier. Some must have taken time out from school.
    Same applies to legendary Pistols & Clash concerts, more people at them than at Live Aid by numbers of anecdotes.
    Many said that the Blind Beggar pub and the balcony at the former Iranian Embassy should have been reused as Olympic venues.

    Both have, according to sworn statements ("On my mothers grave"...), a capacity of millions.
    When Dylan went electric - that was a MASSIVE gig. Millions there.

    I was actually - and honestly - at the Iranian Embassy siege. I was part of it. It was right next to my halls at Imperial and we used to loiter outside and watch developments. Somebody wheeled a piano out there, would you believe, and we used to have a singsong. Students.

    And - spooky or what - I've been to the Blind Beggar too. During my Lehmans time, I took off one lunchtime to go see it and have a drink there. It was an odd hobby of mine back then - visiting London pubs where something notorious had happened. In that one, as some will know, Ronnie Kray shot down and killed George Cornell. You'd never know, though, based on when I visited. Pretty normal looking boozer. No 'edge' in it at all. Even doing food.
    I've had a couple of pints there too. Legend has it that Ronnie took out Cornell just for calling him a fat poof; somewhat unsympathetically expressed but couldn't be said to be untruthful.
    And here's the song that was supposedly playing on the jukebox:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11ium_-Lv8
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    I used to post occasional 'works of art' relating to Brexit and Trumpism. I feel quite strongly that this is part of that genre.



    https://twitter.com/curatorian/status/1505871267689340928?s=20&t=ki2Sx0dc2nC5rvXaY8jpsQ
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited March 2022

    How odd you missed this bit.

    but Labour more trusted on reducing cost of living
    Good you read the whole report but it is in the link
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    edited March 2022
    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Reserve all uni places for the academically gifted.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    For those with an interest in matters Scotch.

    "Andy Wightman warns Nicola Sturgeon he KNOWS who leaked Salmond inquiry files"

    https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/andy-wightman-warns-nicola-sturgeon-26514046

    Andy Wightman is an interesting character. Green MSP in the last Parliament, and was their nominee on the Salmond Inquiry. A serious land-reform activist and notably independent thinker. Fell out with his party over gender and was subjected to a surprisingly high level of vitriol. Left the Party and stood, unsuccessfully, as an Independent.

    Significantly, he had very great reservations about Sturgeon's account at the inquiry. We've read many times of the supposed demise of Nicola and I certainly don't expect this to terminate her but, you never know.

  • Oh polls are relevant again? How convenient for you.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    We've left the EU, what they do in terms of policy is now irrelevant to us, leave them alone

    That's a strange thing to say. What the EU does in terms of policy obviously affects countries outside the EU. Just because we were once members, it doesn't mean we cease to have the right to have a European foreign policy.
  • Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
  • How odd you missed this bit.

    but Labour more trusted on reducing cost of living
    We're going to see a larger Labour lead shortly IMHO
  • Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    Nah uni free for students who study STEM, medicine, history, and law degrees.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    "Delighted". LOL.
  • Oh polls are relevant again? How convenient for you.
    It does show labour weakening on the economy and also on best for cost of living so just providing a balanced view to yours
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sajid Javid joins Rishi Sunak in having to argue that night is day on behalf of the prime minister over the Brexit/Ukraine row: "I don't accept that he was comparing the UK to Ukraine." Which is nonsense, of course. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1505807648448565250/photo/1

    So what interpretation did he offer for this ?

    "I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom, every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples.
    "When the British people voted for Brexit in such large, large numbers, I don't believe it was because they were remotely hostile to foreigners.
    "It's because they wanted to be free to do things differently and for this country to be able to run itself."...
    That both the UK and Ukraine are in the category of countries with a freedom loving people. That doesn’t mean that the UK is equivalent to Ukraine
    Yes, Boris’ quote about “Ukraine and Brexit” really isn’t that offensive. You can see what he’s trying to say. It was emotionally misjudged but not an obviously foolish or outrageous statement

    But the misjudgement (or canny trolling?) got his opponents to hyper-ventilate, which then made the news
    I’m cynical enough to go with canny trolling. The words were carefully chosen. You would hope for better, but that’s the PM the UK has. For now.
    You said exactly the same thing about the refugee cock up. If you don't like what you hear you call it trolling rather than accepting it is true. It is true as was the refugee issue. I'm not a troll. I don't even have a twitter account, but I was fully aware of the refugee issue and had an immediate reaction to Boris' statement.

    Doesn't look good if your reaction to everything you don't like is 'trolls'.
    @StillWaters my apologies, wrong person. Please ignore my post. Sorry.
    No problem. Just to be clear I think you were being trolled by Boris, not a troll yourself!

    On the refugee issue, I tend to view it as, initially, a combination of cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility. Where Patel was at fault was politically not realising it was a problem (I find it hard to believe that she could be personally unmoved by the situation) and being unable / unwilling to devote the focus and energy to sorting it out.

    I don't know how the new system works, so no idea whether the criticisms are justified, but it seems to be these are criticisms of execution rather than of principle at this point, so definitely an improvement. Let's hope that it works.

    (The only person on here I accuse of being a troll is Heathener. Because she is. A spinner of Putin-preferred lines with a compromised VPN that is on an anti-spamming blacklist and was also used by two previous trolls)
    Re your comments on cock up and bureaucratic inflexibility I am sure you are right. FYI I get involved in numerous campaigns where individuals and groups have been badly or unfairly treated by Govt departments (nothing to do with politics). The level of incompetence is mind boggling. However what I do find is a massive amount of resources are then put into avoiding taking any action or making changes often disproportionate to any cost involved. We see these scandals arise over and over again. There are many more at a lower level of seriousness.

    Also for those who think we gained freedoms by leaving the EU, our ombudsman offerings are very flawed with lots of gaps that people and groups fall through. Private member's bills with cross party support invariably fail to fill these gaps. The last and effective resolution was the ECJ has now gone, so many groups are left in limbo with nobody to investigate.
    Eh? We are still subject to the jurisdiction of the ECtHR, our domestic courts can be asked to and do enforce ECHR rights and they are a part of our domestic law.

    UK cases to the ECJ were comparatively few and mainly focused on environmental and employment issues where it was claimed that the UK was either not meeting the relevant standard or had failed to transpose it correctly. There is an interesting analysis of UK cases before the ECJ here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

    Domestic courts are still required to enforce these laws unless they have been changed and there are almost no examples of this so far.
    David, I don't want to bore people online with this but I am involved in pension campaigns where this is an issue. We have had a number of successes in the ECJ, but these will now stop. We have also tried to get the law changed on a number of occasions with all party support and also support from the Parliamentary Ombudsman whose hands are tied so would like to see a change in the law, but these are always opposed by Governments. There are cases which just fall through the gaps. In the case of pension and mortgage cases you can fall fail of the limitation act, which is daft for a mortgage or pension. The FOS will ignore the limitation act, but the PHSO won't because they are legally bound so if you come under that jurisdiction you are stuffed (random result). PHSO also can't investigate GAD so if that is an issue you are stuffed, although an exception was made for Equitable Life, but nobody else. The PO has done an awful job re the PPF and again hides behind the Limitation Act. Ex civil servants can fall between the PHSO and the Whitley Council so fail to get an investigation.

    Is that enough of a pile of issues for you. Just about the only success achieved with this pile of crap is the ECJ.
    @DavidL did you see my reply. I'm no lawyer so can't debate with you on the law. I did just note you also referred to UK cases. I believe one of the most important ones was in fact a German case that was of benefit to our pensioners who have lost much of their pensions. I have also heard (gossip rather than fact) that the Govt plans to reverse one of the decisions that impacts the poorest pensioners (I am dubious about this as it seems a bit odd). Note this is not a comment on the current Govt. I don't think it matters who is in power and in fact most of our most vocal support is from Tory MPs and those who have put forward 10 min bills have all been Tories.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    Nah uni free for students who study STEM, medicine, history, and law degrees.
    Nah - quadruple the cost for lawyers and make everyone else free.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    "Delighted". LOL.
    Why not- indeed absolutely delighted
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    Nah uni free for students who study STEM, medicine, history, and law degrees.
    Wouldn't work - it's already the case that arts courses are often used to cover the higher costs of running STEM courses.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    mwadams said:

    Biggest mistake, Thatcher and Major deciding that 40% should go to university.

    Turn the former polys back into polys.

    It seems criminal that the government encourages so many kids to go to uni and rack up huge debts for degrees that are piss poor.

    Halve the kids going to uni, make the remainder free.
    Nah uni free for students who study STEM, medicine, history, and law degrees.
    Nah - quadruple the cost for lawyers and make everyone else free.
    What are the comparative costs of sending people into Tertiary education v. paying them unemployment benefits?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:



    I might have to get that; I've have never understood the hatred of 'official' Russians for Ukrainians. The comments about relationships that we are hearing surely make it clear that they are very similar peoples, if not the same, just speaking a different language!

    They are, but there are two hideous crimes that have polluted the relationship for decades. The Holodomor in the 1930s literally starved huge numbers of Ukranians to death, because Stalin collectivised them and then confiscated the wheat for expoert. Conversely, Bandera led a large number of Ukrainians to collaborate with the Nazis, and remains celebrated today in countless Ukrainian memorials (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?msclkid=d8e7922ea8f411eca9a3867070865b47). My Russian-born mother, whose family had suffered in the war (her aunt starved to death in the siege of Leningrad), loathed the (pre-Zelensky - this was 20 years ago) Ukrainian leadership for that reason - she felt it wasn't so much that there were collaborators, since every country had some, but that they were still seen by many as heroes.

    Up to recently, it was possible to see the past being buried, since virtually everyone involved is now dead. Young Russians mostly see WW2 as a historical issue, much as we see WW1 - how many people in Britain in the last 30 years have brooded about the sins of the Kaiser? Conversely, opinion polls before the invasion showed over 30% of Ukrainians regretting the loss of the Soviet Union, and hostility to Russians as a people was mainly the province of the far right. One of the consequences of the invasion is to set all that back another generation or two. There are plenty of reports from Ukraine of people who felt a natural affinity to Russia, who voted for pro-Russian parties and detested Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, but who now feel completely betrayed and alienated by Russia. Like most imperialist projects, it's both horrible and ultimately self-defeating, since Putin has actually forged a Ukrainian national unity and common purpose that wasn't there before.

    More anything it reminds me of Yugoslavia. Under Tito, lots of people had got used to getting over the Serb/Croat/Bosnian divide and many declined to identify with any of the rthnic groups in surveys - they said they were simply Yugoslavs. After Tito died, absent-mindedly neglecting to groom an heir, the country fell apart and nationalist leaders set about organising massacres to pursue their perceived identities. Each atrocity in turn reinforced extremists in the victimised ethnic group, and new hatreds were generated which are only now starting to fade.
    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?
    The same was true in the Baltic states, where the Soviets pursued a campaign of mass murder in 1939-40.
    As I've posted before, if the Nazi's hadn't been so insanely fixated on the idea of Slavs (etc) being sub-human they would probably have won.
    If they hadn't believed in race war, then the war would not have happened as it did anyway.

    As far as collaborators are concerned, the evidence would suggest the the propensity to collaborate, rather than an attraction to any given ideology, is the determining factor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine
    ...According to Timothy Snyder, "something that is never said, because it's inconvenient for precisely everyone, is that more Ukrainian Communists collaborated with the Germans, than did Ukrainian nationalists." Snyder also points out that very many of those who collaborated with the German occupation also collaborated with the Soviet policies in the 1930s...
    Quite, although there's still the issue of Lebensraum, which might come up again in many years.

    However the Timothy Snyder post is interesting. Was it repeated elsewhere, is there an issue about some people always gravitating to the government or toadying to the bully.
    I have a dim memory of reading something akin to that in the Channel Islands.
    My theory was that in the event of the Germans invading the UK -

    - One third of the population would have taken to the hills to fight to the death
    - One third of the population wouldn't have noticed, unless the football was interrupted.
    - One third would have lined up round the block for a black armband and a clipboard.
    On your first point, 10% would have taken to the hills to fight to the death, after the event another 50% would have said they were also in the hills. I imagine that proportion applies roughly to most resistance movements.
    While living in Sunderland around 1960 I met several people who claimed to have been on the Jarrow March 24 years earlier. Some must have taken time out from school.
    Same applies to legendary Pistols & Clash concerts, more people at them than at Live Aid by numbers of anecdotes.
    Many said that the Blind Beggar pub and the balcony at the former Iranian Embassy should have been reused as Olympic venues.

    Both have, according to sworn statements ("On my mothers grave"...), a capacity of millions.
    When Dylan went electric - that was a MASSIVE gig. Millions there.

    I was actually - and honestly - at the Iranian Embassy siege. I was part of it. It was right next to my halls at Imperial and we used to loiter outside and watch developments. Somebody wheeled a piano out there, would you believe, and we used to have a singsong. Students.

    And - spooky or what - I've been to the Blind Beggar too. During my Lehmans time, I took off one lunchtime to go see it and have a drink there. It was an odd hobby of mine back then - visiting London pubs where something notorious had happened. In that one, as some will know, Ronnie Kray shot down and killed George Cornell. You'd never know, though, based on when I visited. Pretty normal looking boozer. No 'edge' in it at all. Even doing food.
    I've had a couple of pints there too. Legend has it that Ronnie took out Cornell just for calling him a fat poof; somewhat unsympathetically expressed but couldn't be said to be untruthful.
    And here's the song that was supposedly playing on the jukebox:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11ium_-Lv8
    When I lived in Tower Hill, it was fairly common local knowledge that the Blind Beggar had been a tourist pub for years - the landlord used to make good money just on the people coming to see the place because of the Kray Connection.

    There were some bars that were strictly locals-of-a-certain-stamp only, but that wasn't one of them... The House They Left Behind, maybe.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    Yet the other 27 don't seem to want to be independent countries. Quite odd it being just us. Is it because we are a particularly freedom loving people? I guess it must be.

    Ukraine should take a leaf anyway. What's the point of fighting off the Russians only to then go and join the EU and sublimate themselves to Brussels?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....
    If VVP wants to lob a few nukes he could do us a favour by starting with the capital of Brexitstan.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/can-house-covered-75000-tins-12651180
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576



    You are a Ukrainian in 1940 or 1941. You are 30. You saw the horrors of the Holodomor visited upon you and your family just ten years before. Do you go and fight for the people who did that to you, or do you go and fight for the people fighting them?

    I don't know (evading fighting for either side would be tempting if possible), and I'm reluctant to pass judgment 80 years later on anyone in that situation, especially as I'm no kind of expert on Ukraine - my knowledge of Bandera comes largely from the Wikipedia article.

    My mother's hostility to Ukraine was not so much, as I said, with Bandera's decision to ally with the Nazis, or even with his anti-semitism - even she recognised that we can't really judge countries on the decisions of individuals. What she found unforgivable was that he was commemorated as a hero right up to the time of her death, as I understand remains the case up to the present day.

    I don't offer that as an excuse for Putin launching a war, of course, I was replying to a question about how come Russians and Ukrainians are at loggerheads when they seem ethnically quite similar. The past - Holodomor and Nazi collaboration alike - casts far longer shadows than is understood by most people in Britain. I wish it were otherwise.
    People had a choice of siding with the evil Communist Russians, who had killed millions of them less than a decade earlier, or with the evil Nazis. They were trapped.

    But my point was that the Holodomor came first, and everything that happened afterwards has to be seen in that context. Including today's war.
  • Oh polls are relevant again? How convenient for you.
    It does show labour weakening on the economy and also on best for cost of living so just providing a balanced view to yours
    No it's just that when the Tories are going backwards you say other things are more important.

    Hyper-partisan G they should call you
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Russian forces fire on unarmed Ukrainians in the city of Kherson who had been protesting the occupation. Reports of injured people.

    https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1505896663231172616
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited March 2022
    I would say don't click on the link if you don't want to see what is obvious from the quote...

    Blood on the main square of Kherson. Looks like Russian occupation forces opened fire at a peaceful protest, after dispersing previous ones by shooting in the air and throwing flash-bangs.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1505879929749217286?s=20&t=HAX61NO1i8T-izMeUKUknQ
    Chief Foreign-Affairs Correspondent of The Wall Street Journal.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    What caused the big crossover on 26 March 2020? Peak Boris Covid Saviour?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Pulpstar said:

    No prizes for guessing which episode of Polish-Russian history Medvedev omits:

    This morning, 🇷🇺Dmitry Medvedev decided to post a lengthy letter 🇵🇱"On Poland" - it is a curious mix of Soviet and pan-Slavic mythology with mockery, dire criticism and veiled threats against Poland - here are the key points 🧵

    https://twitter.com/maxfras/status/1505843869707116547

    Is Lithuania prominently involved ?
    Wow. That’s special! Lol!

    Almost as compelling as an @Leon diatribe
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Pulpstar said:

    No prizes for guessing which episode of Polish-Russian history Medvedev omits:

    This morning, 🇷🇺Dmitry Medvedev decided to post a lengthy letter 🇵🇱"On Poland" - it is a curious mix of Soviet and pan-Slavic mythology with mockery, dire criticism and veiled threats against Poland - here are the key points 🧵

    https://twitter.com/maxfras/status/1505843869707116547

    Is Lithuania prominently involved ?
    Wow. That’s special! Lol!

    Almost as compelling as an @Leon diatribe
  • Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2022
    Survived the Nazis.

    Didn’t survive “de-Nazification”:

    Boris Romantschenko survived the concentration camps #Buchenwald, #Peenemünde, #Dora and #BergenBelsen. Now he has been killed by a bullet that hit his house in #Charkiv, #Ukraine. He was 96 years old. We are stunned.

    https://twitter.com/Buchenwald_Dora/status/1505876638076215299
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383

    Mike does this same piece seemingly every month or two, and its the same issue every time, the age disparity. Which he doesn't mention again. 50% going to university over the past 10 years versus 15% going among people who are now 60%+.

    Until we control for the difference in those attending university against age, all it really does is act as a proxy for age, which is clear from all the other metrics. Oldies are incredibly Tory leaning, younger people Labour.

    So every month or two, the same people can look down their noses at the citizens of Hartlepool....
    Hartlepool seems to have become a totem for some on the batshit FBPE side to fixate on.

    Odd.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Scott_xP said:

    Has BoZo managed to uninvite himself from the EU summit?

    Below is interesting in the context of the Times reporting that Number 10 “sorry” on the Brexit-Ukraine remarks… rather suggests that an invite from Charles Michel to Thursday’s EU summit might have been being pondered (Biden is going too, same day as special NATO summit)…. https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1505278978550022145

    .. indeed briefing from UK end to British journalists to this effect last week. Foreign Sec Truss attended the Foreign Affairs Council, so there is a precedent here.

    Something interesting going on here.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/17/boris-johnson-open-to-attending-european-council-says-source?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Global Britain

    Fucking Clown

    Why does a man who campaigned for us to leave the EU want to go to an EU meeting? Just bizarre.
    Because the EU cannot have a successful defence and security strategy without the UK's cooperation and involvement
    So you're saying that Brexit has weakened security in Europe? No wonder Putin wanted it to happen.
    That is upto Europe, but what has weakened Europe far beyond brexit is the utter failure by Germany and others to devise an energy policy that does not result in paying vast sums of money every day to Putin enabling his arming of his war machine, and the action now required would crash their economy

    Merkel's energy policy is a disaster for Europe
    Germany is working hard to rectify their mistake. What are we doing to rectify ours?
    If you are referring to brexit then that is not a mistake

    Germany will take years to wean herself off Putin's gas
    Of course Brexit was a mistake
    You have your view but I am delighted we left the EU despite voting remain and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind that we are better as an independent country
    The public disagree with you.

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
    That does not change my view though I do want a closer relationship but not to rejoin
    Quite interesting how many British people are incredulous about Russians believing state media, and yet so many gullibly suck up all the bullshit about the somewhat hard to find "benefits of Brexit" that they are told by Boris Johnson, a man that is proven to be a pathological liar.
This discussion has been closed.