The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
There are loads of safe ferry crossings from Calais everyday. What are you on about?
Of course there are. But the moment word gets out that the UK is letting people across from Calais with minimal checks there will be a huge rush to the camps - from all nationalities.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate somewhat. I can see why the Home Office instinct is to be very cautious, even if that leads to real-world cruelty to Ukrainian refugees. When the Daily Mail get hold of a 30 year old undocumented man who appears to actually be from Africa the whole thing is undermined.
No Ferry is going to allow a man without paperwork on board - but he isn't a Ukrainian women with 2 children and valid Ukrainian paperwork trying to get to her sister in Burnley.
Again it's a crap excuse designed to justify the utterly unjustifiable to keep xenophobes happy.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
If a Russian spy wanted to enter the UK, they could just enter the UK. There’s no ban on Russians entering the country. They could come on a tourist visa. They’d have to lie on their visa application, but if a Russian spy can’t manage that level of subterfuge, I don’t think we’ve got anything to worry about!
"What is the purpose of your visit sir?" "Spying. No. Shit. Visiting Salisbury Cathedral. No. Ah. Yes. I need to buy some Mr Tumble DVDs?"
Like the days when one was asked on entry to the US, whether or not one had the intention of overthrowing the US Govt. Or something similar.
That form included "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the German National Socialist Workers Party?".
I seem to recall something about having been a member of the Communist Party, too.
The Australians used to have, possibly still do, a question about criminal convictions, and the 'wags' used to ask about desirability.How many who did that were actually allowed in I don't know. On our first entry to Australia, some 30+ years ago we'd waited in a long queue with the immigration officers going through many of the other passengers off the plane in detail. When awe reached the front the officer simply looked at us, looked att our passports briefly and said 'the way out to the taxis is over there'.
The last time I went through border control was before the pandemic, visiting Georgia. They took a brief look at our passports and then gave us a (small) bottle of wine. That wasn't just us: everyone arriving got the wine. Be more like Georgia!
Fpt for @foxy on unexpected travel by ye olden people
Check out the amazing World of Stonehenge exhibition at the British Museum. It’s so good I’m going back again this week. I’ve NEVER revisited a temporary exhibition before
They have this thing called the NEBRA SKY DISC. The oldest known map of the cosmos. 4000 years old. A flat metallic orrery. Unearthed a few years ago in Germany. Yet the gold embedded in it… comes from Cornwall
Or see the buried archer from near Stonehenge. The Amesbury grave. Also about 4000 years old. Yet this guy was born in the Alps?!
It’s a mind blowing, spine tingling exhibition. Go!
Very much looking forward to this. I've steadily paid my BM membership for 2 years with exactly 1 visit in that time (almost 2 years ago today at the end of the Troy exhibition!)
I'm going down tomorrow.
Ah. I hope I haven’t oversold it. I don’t think I have. It’s stunning.
The only problem is the intensity and scale. If you’re into history - especially wonderfully mysterious pre-history - it is quite overwhelming
My advice: take your time. There will probably be crowds. Be patient. Expect to stay 3 hours… or more. Try and see everything. It’s all amazing. The curators spent ten years - ten years! - putting together the exhibition, and it shows. Don’t miss the glowing red amber thing at the beginning.
I'm sure you haven't; I'm really interested in the prehistoric cultural connections - particularly the migration of ideas in the mesolithic/neolithic and neolithic/bronze age transitions, so I find Stonehenge and its landscape especially interesting in how it is repurposed over that "Phase III" period.
One of the many many enlightening aspects of the show is how they tell the pre-pre-history of Stonehenge (and its people) - the way it was sacred for many centuries BEFORE the famed megaliths, with earlier circles, and then re-used as a sacred site by different people afterwards, in different ways, for another 2000 years
It was the Cathedral of Europe, attracting people from across the continent, like pilgrims, for 4000 years
For an exhibition which purports to “explain” Stonehenge, it actually deepens the mystery. Which is brilliant.
The fact I’m still banging on about it, two days after I went to see it, says something by itself
One processing advantage for Ukranians is that Russian with a Ukranian accent and Ukranian itself are really not widely spoken unlike arabic and english - also there should be remarkably few 18 - 60 men given the fact they're staying back to fight the Russians.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
I think you overestimate the competence of the Home Office.
It's not xenophobic - it's just putting yourselves on the shoes of civil servants who have conflicting directions from ministers:
1) Let all Ukrainians in, fast as fuck, no pissing about
2) Zero mistakes, provide deterrent at Calais.
Oh I know where the buck stops - at our lying xenophobic Home Secretary.
My point was that we can easily fix these things but we aren't actually doing so for politics...
But the other fact is that I could probably get 80% of Ukrainians in without any hassle - but you then have the idiot who is always bleating on about the other 20% without the ability to grasp how by fast tracking the easy cases you have more time to resolve the other ones.
Briefing to Telegraph that Ireland's open door policy is security risk to the UK has made headline news in Ireland. Minister Rod O'Gorman just asked about it on RTE. Says Ireland's welcome of refugees (2,200 v UK's 300) is part of EU-wide policy and "is the right thing to do". https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930
What I find particularly revolting about this is that these statements are being made by ministers in a government led by a Prime Minister who put a man in our legislature despite the security services having concerns about him.
Security concerns can be ignored if there's money in it for the Tories but an insuperable obstacle apparently when it comes to ordinary people fleeing for their lives.
Latest update from the Ukrainian high command on Russian losses. Note the 80 helicopters lost suggest that the attack on 30 being reported yesterday was indeed correct.
"The enemy's losses. Operative information from General Headquarters. - military personnel: more than 12 thousand people; - tanks: 303; - armored fighting vehicles: 1036; - artillery systems: 120; - multiple launch rocket systems: 56; - units of air defense equipment: 27; - aircraft – 48; - helicopters – 80; - automobile vehicles – 474; - warship/speed boats – 3; - cisterns with fuel and lubricants – 60; - unmanned aerial vehicles: 7"
Those are staggering figures and we should remember every day Ukraine is receiving more and more NATO weapons
Currently (for instance) they claim that they can verify 143 destroyed / captured Russian tanks. If nearly half the number claimed by the Ukranians can be directly verified from open source intelligence sources, it does suggest that the Ukranian numbers are not that far from reality.
(Ukranian numbers on that webpage are probably undercounting by a wider margin as the Ukranians are probably less likely to share their own losses & the Russians aren’t sharing much at all?)
Regardless of the outcome of this war, these are staggering losses. At some point, the Russian military is going to have to choose between maintaining security garrisons elsewhere in the Russian empire & putting more armour into Ukraine.
They have confirmed the loss of 143 Russian tanks - half of which have been captured. That shows either how many troops have given up - or the logistics failure to fuel them.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who are being stopped at Calais.
The thing that astonishes me is that there are a few in this category and have been interviewed by the media and it cannot be beyond the home office to admit them immediately
Patel and the home office just do not seem to have any common sense, or an ability to act outside the box
It is compassion they lack, not common sense, what is happening is what they want to happen. And they can only achieve this because people enable their xenophobia by believing and parroting their nonsense which is consistently at odds with the facts on the ground.
Very interesting thread from the Navalny camp on Russian public opinion. it seems to be turning against the war, rather than hardening.
1/14 Whether Russians actually support the hideous war that Putin has waged against Ukraine is a matter of utmost political importance. The answer to this question will largely define Russia’s place in the history of the 21st century. https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123330262380551
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
Latest update from the Ukrainian high command on Russian losses. Note the 80 helicopters lost suggest that the attack on 30 being reported yesterday was indeed correct.
"The enemy's losses. Operative information from General Headquarters. - military personnel: more than 12 thousand people; - tanks: 303; - armored fighting vehicles: 1036; - artillery systems: 120; - multiple launch rocket systems: 56; - units of air defense equipment: 27; - aircraft – 48; - helicopters – 80; - automobile vehicles – 474; - warship/speed boats – 3; - cisterns with fuel and lubricants – 60; - unmanned aerial vehicles: 7"
This is absolute toss and you'd have to be a fucking mug to fall for it.
Just because Ukraine are the Ewoks and Russia is the Empire that doesn't mean we have to swallow their bullshit.
Do you have any other numbers ?
Oryx Blog mentioned above have a credible methodology and historically have been no friends of the Russians.
Random shit posted on Twitter with no evidence means nothing. Both sides are highly motivated to lie as much as possible.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
Briefing to Telegraph that Ireland's open door policy is security risk to the UK has made headline news in Ireland. Minister Rod O'Gorman just asked about it on RTE. Says Ireland's welcome of refugees (2,200 v UK's 300) is part of EU-wide policy and "is the right thing to do". https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930
What I find particularly revolting about this is that these statements are being made by ministers in a government led by a Prime Minister who put a man in our legislature despite the security services having concerns about him.
Security concerns can be ignored if there's money in it for the Tories but an insuperable obstacle apparently when it comes to ordinary people fleeing for their lives.
That is a very difficult point to counter. There may perhaps be security concerns; but even so, the callous appearance mean the optics of it are terrible.
The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
No it's not. There are British citizens who have rescued their relatives from Ukrainian who have gone through hell who now have issues at Calais. They should not have to have any issues at this point. It is heartless. And this is not Twitter or do you think those people interviewed in Calais and Poland on the BBC were fictional.
Why have they gone to Calais? Known for its murderously dangerous, illegal Channel crossings, run by people traffickers?
These Ukrainians are not dumb (and they are deserving of all our sympathy) but if you have exited Ukraine, then decided to not stop anywhere in mainland Europe, and instead go all the way to France, why would you avoid the multiple british embassies and consulates on the way, and instead head straight for the most dangerous crossing point of all? This is not something you can do in a moment. It takes days of planning and travel
Perhaps you enjoy imperilling yourself, after your thrilling experience of being bombed in Kyiv. Or maybe HMG is justified in a certain skepticism
They haven't you twit. Watch the news
These are Brits who are married to Ukrainians so have Ukrainian children and relatives. They have driven to Poland to rescue them. They naturally drive back to Calais to return and are blocked.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
I explicitly said the government is probably fucking up, as governments do. I’m just trying to understand why (because I don’t believe the british civil service is staffed by Nazis, quite the opposite)
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
Latest update from the Ukrainian high command on Russian losses. Note the 80 helicopters lost suggest that the attack on 30 being reported yesterday was indeed correct.
"The enemy's losses. Operative information from General Headquarters. - military personnel: more than 12 thousand people; - tanks: 303; - armored fighting vehicles: 1036; - artillery systems: 120; - multiple launch rocket systems: 56; - units of air defense equipment: 27; - aircraft – 48; - helicopters – 80; - automobile vehicles – 474; - warship/speed boats – 3; - cisterns with fuel and lubricants – 60; - unmanned aerial vehicles: 7"
This is absolute toss and you'd have to be a fucking mug to fall for it.
Just because Ukraine are the Ewoks and Russia is the Empire that doesn't mean we have to swallow their bullshit.
Do you have any other numbers ?
It is safe to assume everyone is lying.
And that twitter is a vast repository of spin, lies and bullshit. And that is in peace-time.
Latest update from the Ukrainian high command on Russian losses. Note the 80 helicopters lost suggest that the attack on 30 being reported yesterday was indeed correct.
"The enemy's losses. Operative information from General Headquarters. - military personnel: more than 12 thousand people; - tanks: 303; - armored fighting vehicles: 1036; - artillery systems: 120; - multiple launch rocket systems: 56; - units of air defense equipment: 27; - aircraft – 48; - helicopters – 80; - automobile vehicles – 474; - warship/speed boats – 3; - cisterns with fuel and lubricants – 60; - unmanned aerial vehicles: 7"
This is absolute toss and you'd have to be a fucking mug to fall for it.
Just because Ukraine are the Ewoks and Russia is the Empire that doesn't mean we have to swallow their bullshit.
The Ewoks got the job done.
The US "conservative" estimate is 3,000 Russian dead. Which is still broadly on track for 1 week in Ukraine = 1 year in Afghanistan.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
Tragic to have to acknowledge it, but you are bang on the mark.
The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
No it's not. There are British citizens who have rescued their relatives from Ukrainian who have gone through hell who now have issues at Calais. They should not have to have any issues at this point. It is heartless. And this is not Twitter or do you think those people interviewed in Calais and Poland on the BBC were fictional.
Why have they gone to Calais? Known for its murderously dangerous, illegal Channel crossings, run by people traffickers?
These Ukrainians are not dumb (and they are deserving of all our sympathy) but if you have exited Ukraine, then decided to not stop anywhere in mainland Europe, and instead go all the way to France, why would you avoid the multiple british embassies and consulates on the way, and instead head straight for the most dangerous crossing point of all? This is not something you can do in a moment. It takes days of planning and travel
Perhaps you enjoy imperilling yourself, after your thrilling experience of being bombed in Kyiv. Or maybe HMG is justified in a certain skepticism
They haven't you twit. Watch the news
These are Brits who are married to Ukrainians so have Ukrainian children and relatives. They have driven to Poland to rescue them. They naturally drive back to Calais to return and are blocked.
To me this is a situation that is easy to resolve as the numbers are not huge and the process easy
Patel is actually not a million miles from public opinion on this.
While 76% of British voters back taking in some Ukranian refugees, as we are, just 15% of British voters are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees into the UK
As usual in these polls people generally picked a middle option. But there has always been a willingness to accept genuine refugees from a desperate situation if they came through an official channel. The way we're making the official channel as difficult as possible does not reflect most people's wishes as they see the catastrophe unfolding on their sscreens.
Responsibility for resettling refugees in my borough is in my portfolio. We've received exactly three families through the Home Office system so far. We've said repeatedly that we'll be glad to take more, and I know many other boroughs are doing the same. Instead, the Government is housing large numbers of Afghans in hostels at taxpayers' expense while they ponder the paperwork, and making the process ludicrously difficult for Ukrainians.
Why?
Good point about the 'middle option' bias. I've done work with surveys of htis kind* and the preferred approach to this kind of hting is generally not to offer a range of options, but to give each person just one randomly assigned choice from the available options (i.e. should we take 100k refugees, yes or no?). Then model the responses to find the mean and median acceptable number. Does mean you potentially need a bigger sample though...
*in one project we actually compared approaches - one multiple choice per person and one yes/no with a random amount asked. For the multiple choice the responses clustered around the middle (and stayed at the middle when we tried two different sets of options on different people with a different middle value). The yes/no question gave higher answers.
Why not give each respondent a randomly shuffled set of multiple choice questions and take account of the position of the question in each set?
For numerical things, presenting them out of order is quite annoying and people will perhaps still tend to find the middle value - it's value, rather than position that seems to cause the bias. How many Ukrainian refugees should we accept? 50k, 20k, 500k, 250k, 100k? People will still, is suspect, find and pick a middle value althought maybe not to quite the same extent...
There's probably a lot more looking at this, I haven't read into it greatly, just enough to understand that there is an issue and a better way to do it. The comparisons I mentioned doing were post hoc as the team had run pilot surveys with multiple choice before I joined the project and we switched to the yes/no random value type question. It was just interesting to see confirmation of the issue from our own survey results.
Edit: It's also a bit abstract as a queston anyway. People can't really imagine those numbers. More useful might be how many do you think your town could accept and then correlate with size of settlements, maybe. Even then, while you might have an idea of how many you'd comfortable take in Epping, if you live in London it's harder to say... Local Authority Districts, maybe.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
Our fair share - which is probably 450,000 or so (yep it's a large number but Ukraine has a population of 44 million).
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
I explicitly said the government is probably fucking up, as governments do. I’m just trying to understand why (because I don’t believe the british civil service is staffed by Nazis, quite the opposite)
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
Well that is exactly what is happening. No office is being provided at Calais. They have to go to Paris or Brussels and the next appointment is 17 March (BBC News this morning). This is after they walked thru Ukraine to a refugee centre in Poland and after their husbands drove all the way to Poland to pick them up we can't be arsed to set up an office in Calais where the bloody tunnel is.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
The question no-one can answer is how long they will be here. During WWI, a huge number of Belgian refugees came to the UK -- a quarter of a million: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28857769 -- and then they went back to Belgium once the war had ended. We could readily take a quarter of a million Ukrainians for a couple of years and I think the public would be supportive.
But what if they can't go back? I'm in favour of taking hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and if, tragically, they can't go back, then I am sure they will add to the rich tapestry of this country, as has been the case with people coming to the British Isles since before Stonehenge. I am less sure that the electorate would be happy in this case, although the polling has been trending towards being more favourable towards immigration and research suggests that populations are more welcoming to immigration in this sort of context.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It’s not an utterly vile policy. Every stable country on earth has a similarly “vile policy”. You can’t just go abroad and marry someone and then immediately expect that spouse to have automatic right to live in the UK. For a start that’s an invitation to rapacious British people to just marry people abroad, to give them a passport, multiple times, for money
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
Re public support for taking in loads of refugees: if you poll it specifically amongst the voter group who decided GE19 and will probably decide GE24 - people who went Con because of "Boris" and Brexit - I bet you'll find a different answer.
The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
No it's not. There are British citizens who have rescued their relatives from Ukrainian who have gone through hell who now have issues at Calais. They should not have to have any issues at this point. It is heartless. And this is not Twitter or do you think those people interviewed in Calais and Poland on the BBC were fictional.
Why have they gone to Calais? Known for its murderously dangerous, illegal Channel crossings, run by people traffickers?
These Ukrainians are not dumb (and they are deserving of all our sympathy) but if you have exited Ukraine, then decided to not stop anywhere in mainland Europe, and instead go all the way to France, why would you avoid the multiple british embassies and consulates on the way, and instead head straight for the most dangerous crossing point of all? This is not something you can do in a moment. It takes days of planning and travel
Perhaps you enjoy imperilling yourself, after your thrilling experience of being bombed in Kyiv. Or maybe HMG is justified in a certain skepticism
They haven't you twit. Watch the news
These are Brits who are married to Ukrainians so have Ukrainian children and relatives. They have driven to Poland to rescue them. They naturally drive back to Calais to return and are blocked.
There's Calais, and there's Calais.
These people are waiting with their British relatives in the car like you or I would to come back from a holiday, they're not in the Sangatte camp trying to hop aboard a dinghy. I'd imagine most would have paperwork on them, unlike most in the Sangatte camp.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
I explicitly said the government is probably fucking up, as governments do. I’m just trying to understand why (because I don’t believe the british civil service is staffed by Nazis, quite the opposite)
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
Sorry @Leon if I got annoyed as I probably explained it badly but this makes me so angry. The verification in these cases is so straightforward it makes you wonder who the hell the 300 who actually got through were. Oligarchs?
Latest update from the Ukrainian high command on Russian losses. Note the 80 helicopters lost suggest that the attack on 30 being reported yesterday was indeed correct.
"The enemy's losses. Operative information from General Headquarters. - military personnel: more than 12 thousand people; - tanks: 303; - armored fighting vehicles: 1036; - artillery systems: 120; - multiple launch rocket systems: 56; - units of air defense equipment: 27; - aircraft – 48; - helicopters – 80; - automobile vehicles – 474; - warship/speed boats – 3; - cisterns with fuel and lubricants – 60; - unmanned aerial vehicles: 7"
This is absolute toss and you'd have to be a fucking mug to fall for it.
Just because Ukraine are the Ewoks and Russia is the Empire that doesn't mean we have to swallow their bullshit.
The smart thing the Ukrainians have done is report their own losses in a credible way. Great media manipulation.
As Le Carre would put it, just enough gold dust to disguise the chicken feed.
Speaking of Le Carre, it does make me wonder whether there's a 'Tailor of Kyiv' somewhere in this mess, telling Russian spies what they wanted to hear about Ukraine's nefarious intentions and the desire of the Ukrainian people to return to mother Russia.
Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud·47s🇷🇺 *SHELL ANNOUNCES INTENT TO WITHDRAW FROM RUSSIAN #OIL AND #GAS - BBG *SHELL WILL STOP ALL SPOT PURCHASES OF RUSSIAN CRUDE OIL
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
This type of thing is unsurprising, and the reason why I sent my son to state school.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
Our fair share - which is probably 450,000 or so (yep it's a large number but Ukraine has a population of 44 million).
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
Patel did say that she had extended the definition of family members in the HOC yesterday and Yvette Cooper seemed satisfied on the change
Patel has also said 200,000 will be granted visas and it will be reviewed and to be honest that figure amy well need to rise
The problem I have is when listening to Patel she says all the right things but then fails to process them
Patel never has been suited to Home Secretary, but I also think this is a problem in the home office itself and those required to enact government policy. Far too much computer says no
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It can be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. Our immigration policy has always differentiated between people from different places. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does and we are absolutely allowed under international agreements to open our doors selectively.
As you say, good to see people are having a change of heart. Maybe if their compassion starts with Ukrainians, in time it will grow to Syrians etc.
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
I do wish @charles would come back. The place was better with him here.
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
Our fair share - which is probably 450,000 or so (yep it's a large number but Ukraine has a population of 44 million).
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
Patel did say that she had extended the definition of family members in the HOC yesterday and Yvette Cooper seemed satisfied on the change
Patel has also said 200,000 will be granted visas and it will be reviewed and to be honest that figure amy well need to rise
The problem I have is when listening to Patel she says all the right things but then fails to process them
Patel never has been suited to Home Secretary, but I also think this is a problem in the home office itself and those required to enact government policy. Far too much computer says no
Why are we persisting with Visas? Just let them in if they have ID.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
My personal story of such comedy.
Some years ago, I was engaged to a lady who had two sons. The local comprehensive was that rare thing - a school that competed with the finest private schools. Very posh neighbourhood.
Got called to the school. It seemed that one of the boys was being bullied. For "acting white" - getting high marks. My ex was from Ghana.
The principle said that she wasn't going to do anything to the bully. Who was the son of a diplomat, also from Africa. Because it was a cultural issue. My ex became extremely angry, pointing out that said diplomat came from an a very old, rich family in his country and in any case the son was dressing up as an American gangster, not any African culture....
The principle was, of course, white, middle class etc.
So we had a white person telling a first generation immigrant from Africa that she would do nothing about the immigrant's son being bullied out of an education....
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
Being married to an International Woman I made her breakfast this morning. It was the least I could do.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
I do wish @charles would come back. The place was better with him here.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It’s not an utterly vile policy. Every stable country on earth has a similarly “vile policy”. You can’t just go abroad and marry someone and then immediately expect that spouse to have automatic right to live in the UK. For a start that’s an invitation to rapacious British people to just marry people abroad, to give them a passport, multiple times, for money
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It can be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. Our immigration policy has always differentiated between people from different places. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does and we are absolutely allowed under international agreements to open our doors selectively.
As you say, good to see people are having a change of heart. Maybe if their compassion starts with Ukrainians, in time it will grow to Syrians etc.
Surely there has to be some element of geography in refugee policy. A real world practical example at the limit demonstrates this. Moldova will end up with 5-20% of its population being Ukrainian refugees, it is already at 5% from a couple of weeks war. It would have simply made zero sense for Moldova to take in this number of refugees from Afghanistan or Syria.
So being more generous to Ukrainians as they are are on our continent, or Hong Kongers as we had a recent involvement and responsibility there is fine. It is the pretending we are being generous, when we are the opposite, that is very wrong.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
I explicitly said the government is probably fucking up, as governments do. I’m just trying to understand why (because I don’t believe the british civil service is staffed by Nazis, quite the opposite)
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
Well that is exactly what is happening. No office is being provided at Calais. They have to go to Paris or Brussels and the next appointment is 17 March (BBC News this morning). This is after they walked thru Ukraine to a refugee centre in Poland and after their husbands drove all the way to Poland to pick them up we can't be arsed to set up an office in Calais where the bloody tunnel is.
The government are not in an easy position. They have to support Ukrainians and act in ways the population will support in future, not just right now. The UK public can and will say one thing now, and the opposite once (for example) lots of people arrive.
SFAICS there is strong objection to refugee 'tourism'; the government fears this will happen if they are too open. The UK is a popular destination. 30% of our babies are born to foreign born mothers.
IMHO in the short and medium term the big issues with centre/centre right voters with refugees is: genuineness, proximity, desire to return asap, and cultural closeness. If France, Belgium or the Netherlands got invaded by an army wearing the new style Russian Zwastika 5 million would come here and we would accept it with a Gallic shrug. proximity is all.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
Our fair share - which is probably 450,000 or so (yep it's a large number but Ukraine has a population of 44 million).
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
Patel did say that she had extended the definition of family members in the HOC yesterday and Yvette Cooper seemed satisfied on the change
Patel has also said 200,000 will be granted visas and it will be reviewed and to be honest that figure amy well need to rise
The problem I have is when listening to Patel she says all the right things but then fails to process them
Patel never has been suited to Home Secretary, but I also think this is a problem in the home office itself and those required to enact government policy. Far too much computer says no
Why are we persisting with Visas? Just let them in if they have ID.
I assume the visa provides formal approval but there seems to be an absence of creative thinking
The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
No it's not. There are British citizens who have rescued their relatives from Ukrainian who have gone through hell who now have issues at Calais. They should not have to have any issues at this point. It is heartless. And this is not Twitter or do you think those people interviewed in Calais and Poland on the BBC were fictional.
Why have they gone to Calais? Known for its murderously dangerous, illegal Channel crossings, run by people traffickers?
These Ukrainians are not dumb (and they are deserving of all our sympathy) but if you have exited Ukraine, then decided to not stop anywhere in mainland Europe, and instead go all the way to France, why would you avoid the multiple british embassies and consulates on the way, and instead head straight for the most dangerous crossing point of all? This is not something you can do in a moment. It takes days of planning and travel
Perhaps you enjoy imperilling yourself, after your thrilling experience of being bombed in Kyiv. Or maybe HMG is justified in a certain skepticism
They haven't you twit. Watch the news
These are Brits who are married to Ukrainians so have Ukrainian children and relatives. They have driven to Poland to rescue them. They naturally drive back to Calais to return and are blocked.
There's Calais, and there's Calais.
These people are waiting with their British relatives in the car like you or I would to come back from a holiday, they're not in the Sangatte camp trying to hop aboard a dinghy. I'd imagine most would have paperwork on them, unlike most in the Sangatte camp.
But they can't get in without a visa and no visa office has been set up in Calais for them. They are sent to Paris or Brussels where they have to wait for nearly 2 weeks for an appointment and this is for the slam dunk cases!
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
Being married to an International Woman I made her breakfast this morning. It was the least I could do.
Being married to a Scot I did the same and gave it to her in bed
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
Being married to an International Woman I made her breakfast this morning. It was the least I could do.
Being married to a Scot I did the same and gave it to her in bed
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
Being married to an International Woman I made her breakfast this morning. It was the least I could do.
Being married to a Scot I did the same and gave it to her in bed
Too much information
At our ages I think the meaning is clear to be honest !!!
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
Even some of his fiercest critics are admitting that Boris is working well with Zelenskyy and is being a good ally of Ukraine in the war, so of course certain people would rather we refocus onto other stuff instead of dealing with the war.
I would rather we be more generous to refugees flying them in from Poland (not Calais) but the top priority has to be winning the war.
What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .
This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .
The security concerns are not about Ukranians but persons masquerading as Ukrainians to access the UK and hence why even labour are saying checks are needed
With a Ukranian ID card and passport?
Which part of the statement that we are making pointless make work for ourselves while revealing ourselves to be clueless racist xenophobics do you and similar posters trying to justify the utterly unjustifiable do you not quite grasp?
If they have a Ukrainian ID and passport they should be waived through and to be honest I do object to be referred to as a clueless racist xenophobe which simply is not in the spirit of this discussion
Yet that isn't what you said 2 seconds earlier - every single one of your previous posts talks about persons masquerading as Ukrainians and demonstrates an attitude of guilty until proven innocent....
Do you seriously think that in the Calais area persons will not masquerade as Ukrainians, either directly or through the smugglers in attempt to gain access to the UK
Again you are going all xenophobic and ignoring all common sense.
Got a Ukrainian ID card / passport with matching photo - let them in. Got paperwork from the Polish / Ukraine border - let them in.
Not got either - push them down an interview approach.
This is the type of job I've been doing for 20 odd years (automating work and especially make work away) and it's really quite simple, you look at the type of cases and you identify things that are common and implement processes for them.
Or you come up with a bullshit excuse to avoid doing anything knowing that your average Xenophobic voter will accept the bullshit excuse because they don't think and like the end result.
73% of conservative voters want Ukrainian refugees here
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
never going to happen - the Tory party has to keep their xenophobic voters happy as otherwise they will return to Farage.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
A genuine question - what level of Ukrainian immigration should we allow in these circumstances, in view that the UN are suggesting 4.5 million Ukrainian will be refugees
Our fair share - which is probably 450,000 or so (yep it's a large number but Ukraine has a population of 44 million).
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
Patel did say that she had extended the definition of family members in the HOC yesterday and Yvette Cooper seemed satisfied on the change
Patel has also said 200,000 will be granted visas and it will be reviewed and to be honest that figure amy well need to rise
The problem I have is when listening to Patel she says all the right things but then fails to process them
Patel never has been suited to Home Secretary, but I also think this is a problem in the home office itself and those required to enact government policy. Far too much computer says no
Why are we persisting with Visas? Just let them in if they have ID.
I assume the visa provides formal approval but there seems to be an absence of creative thinking
One huge gulf is between the "self starting" and those who... aren't
There is a vast gulf of comprehension between those who can think and apply this to.. life and those for whom a set of rigid rules are vital.
There is a receptionist at my GPs surgery like this - nice person, but if you go off script in any way, she gets into a panic. The universe is undone. We all treat her with a kind of special care - it must be horrible to go through life staggering from one panic to the next.....
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It’s not an utterly vile policy. Every stable country on earth has a similarly “vile policy”. You can’t just go abroad and marry someone and then immediately expect that spouse to have automatic right to live in the UK. For a start that’s an invitation to rapacious British people to just marry people abroad, to give them a passport, multiple times, for money
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
Er, there are already plenty of quite invasive procedures in place to weed out fake marriages. The income threshold is neither necessary nor sufficient to deal with that issue. Being called dim by you I will wear as a badge of honour, but avoid ad hominems if you can or I might reluctantly reach the conclusion that you are a prick.
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
And half this morning's front pages.
I'm pretty sure Poland is remarking the number of refugees, too. Something which is very much part of the war.
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
Even some of his fiercest critics are admitting that Boris is working well with Zelenskyy and is being a good ally of Ukraine in the war, so of course certain people would rather we refocus onto other stuff instead of dealing with the war.
I would rather we be more generous to refugees flying them in from Poland (not Calais) but the top priority has to be winning the war.
I can understand you think this government incapable of doing two things at once.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It’s not an utterly vile policy. Every stable country on earth has a similarly “vile policy”. You can’t just go abroad and marry someone and then immediately expect that spouse to have automatic right to live in the UK. For a start that’s an invitation to rapacious British people to just marry people abroad, to give them a passport, multiple times, for money
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
It is a vile policy, because the income threshold is deliberately set far too high. The goal is nothing to do with fairness and human dignity, but to act as a deterrant. The worst part, as I understand it, is that people who live overseas with foreign spouses cannot ever easily move back home with their family. Of course there is an exemption for the rich and very high earners though. Of course.
This is all a legacy of the pathological obsession with reducing net migration, from around 2010 onwards. This was emboldened by Brexit, which is viewed as being caused by concerns about immigration. Nothing is off limits, and no amount of consequential human tragedy and ruined lives will ever deter the government, in this respect. They believe that they are on the side of public opinion. It is a calculated policy to harm the lives of a minority, to serve the prejudices of a majority.
I have just noticed that I had a lot of of replies of good wishes to my post last Thursday 10 minutes before my op. I said at the time I thought they were leaving it a bit late with 10 min to go and as I hit the send button I was off to theatre.
Needless to say I knew nothing for a while so missed all the good wishes. Thank you everyone.
In response to questions all seems to have gone well. I got home just 1 day later. My cast is only up to my knee now and I will have problems getting through those machines in airports in future, but otherwise just bored and frustrated. NHS was very impressive.
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
But they have all done their courses, done the multiple choice test online, and have a printed copy of the certificates in their HR folders.
How can Constable Savage be a bad person if he has done all his courses?
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
I do wish @charles would come back. The place was better with him here.
MIssed his re-flounce window. It'd just be embarrassing now like when Cannavaro went back to Juve.
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
Being married to an International Woman I made her breakfast this morning. It was the least I could do.
Perhaps the main point of voting for Brexit was to express contempt and a desire for separation from migrants, particularly Eastern Europeans. In a UK with a million Ukrainian refugees the initial thrill would wear off after a month and every Farage and SeanT would be back to moan.
Mrs J, being a thoroughly modern woman, cooked me breakfast this morning.
So now all I need to do is hang out the washing, vacuum, go shopping, prepare dinner, pick the little 'un up from school, help him with his homework ...
Perhaps the main point of voting for Brexit was to express contempt and a desire for separation from migrants, particularly Eastern Europeans. In a UK with a million Ukrainian refugees the initial thrill would wear off after a month and every Farage and SeanT would be back to moan.
Or maybe not! Opinions change. I think the public's willingness to welcome Ukrainian refugees will last much longer than a month, and perhaps change their opinions towards others from eastern Europe or other refugees from outside Europe.
Perhaps the main point of voting for Brexit was to express contempt and a desire for separation from migrants, particularly Eastern Europeans. In a UK with a million Ukrainian refugees the initial thrill would wear off after a month and every Farage and SeanT would be back to moan.
I think a lot of it was to do with being undercut by people willing to work for lower wages (who happened to be Eastern European) rather people not liking Poles per se. The “Polish Plumber” while a god send to the middle classes in search of lower costs was not a god send to working class plumbers in receipt of lower wages.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
I explicitly said the government is probably fucking up, as governments do. I’m just trying to understand why (because I don’t believe the british civil service is staffed by Nazis, quite the opposite)
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
Well that is exactly what is happening. No office is being provided at Calais. They have to go to Paris or Brussels and the next appointment is 17 March (BBC News this morning). This is after they walked thru Ukraine to a refugee centre in Poland and after their husbands drove all the way to Poland to pick them up we can't be arsed to set up an office in Calais where the bloody tunnel is.
The government are not in an easy position. They have to support Ukrainians and act in ways the population will support in future, not just right now. The UK public can and will say one thing now, and the opposite once (for example) lots of people arrive.
SFAICS there is strong objection to refugee 'tourism'; the government fears this will happen if they are too open. The UK is a popular destination. 30% of our babies are born to foreign born mothers.
IMHO in the short and medium term the big issues with centre/centre right voters with refugees is: genuineness, proximity, desire to return asap, and cultural closeness. If France, Belgium or the Netherlands got invaded by an army wearing the new style Russian Zwastika 5 million would come here and we would accept it with a Gallic shrug. proximity is all.
Oh I think the Govt does have an easy position with regard to Ukrainians at Calais. As @Leon correctly points out no Ukrainian is making his way to Calais under normal circumstances. I doubt there is a single one there who isn't in car with their British relative. I image the numbers are incredibly low and proof easily provided. As @Big_G_NorthWales points out it is an easily solvable problem. As with most civil servants I expect there is a lot of 'jobs worth' involved and an unsympathetic home secretary.
The Calais thing is a massive red herring. The Home Office is quite right to deter that route to the UK. It's dangerous and a boon to human traffickers.
It's the usual suspects complaining about it on twitter and they will ultimately undermine their position and that of the refugees.
The failure of UK Gov is not shifting people en masses with the RAF and BA flights from Poland. It would look great politically, too.
Calais is not a red herring at all. As pointed out on a previous thread, the solution is outstandingly simple. The UK government just needs to offer Ukrainians the same deal as EU citizens: six months visa free stay in the UK and then give the six months to sort out a longer arrangement.
But because the UK is not offering effective safe routes to Ukrainian refugees they are in the same situation as asylum seekers from the Middle East and Africa and will potentially try to cross the Channel in rafts.
Calais is the symptom of the failure of the policy, not the policy itself.
Briefing to Telegraph that Ireland's open door policy is security risk to the UK has made headline news in Ireland. Minister Rod O'Gorman just asked about it on RTE. Says Ireland's welcome of refugees (2,200 v UK's 300) is part of EU-wide policy and "is the right thing to do". https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930
What I find particularly revolting about this is that these statements are being made by ministers in a government led by a Prime Minister who put a man in our legislature despite the security services having concerns about him.
Security concerns can be ignored if there's money in it for the Tories but an insuperable obstacle apparently when it comes to ordinary people fleeing for their lives.
Yes that is a good comparison.
Feels like the end for Patel this time, her colleagues have turned on her for letting the side down. Even Leon has put up the white flag on insisting “problem, what problem.”
Ultimately Boris surrounded himself with sycophants, and it didn’t make for a very good government for Tory’s to easily rally behind.
Barely half way into the term of office, unless something changes on this direction of travel Tories could be on for one of their worst ever GE vote shares.
For balance though we have to add, Labour yesterday rejected the EU type of very generous offer in favour of supporting Patel’s security check approach.
One also has to ask, why would any Ukrainian refugee - having escaped bombed out Kharkiv, afterwards fleeing to Lviv, then crossing to the border - thereafter make their way by bus train and car all the way across Europe. To Calais?!
What’s the point in that? Are you actually hoping to cross in a terribly dangerous dinghy? Why do that, when you can turn up at the british Embassy in Paris - or anywhere - and get your documents stamped and you’re in the UK safely? No boats required?
I can see why HMG is somewhat suspicious
You twit. These are the wives, daughters, relatives etc of British citizens who have driven all the way to Poland to pick up their wives, daughters and relatives. Do you not watch the news. People with English names and English accents who are as English as you and I who happen to have married a Ukrainian and therefore have Ukrainian spouses, children, relatives who they have rescued and are now being stopped at Calais.
Absolutely. But bear in mind that government policy is that children and spouses of UK citizens have no automatic right to live here unless they meet certain conditions like earning well over median UK incomes. This policy has always been utterly vile but it can't be waived selectively for one group of people but not others. And it is odd seeing enthusiastic supporters of the government and its brutal hostile environment immigration regime suddenly calling for an open door. Still, good to see people are having a change of heart.
It’s not an utterly vile policy. Every stable country on earth has a similarly “vile policy”. You can’t just go abroad and marry someone and then immediately expect that spouse to have automatic right to live in the UK. For a start that’s an invitation to rapacious British people to just marry people abroad, to give them a passport, multiple times, for money
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
It is a vile policy, because the income threshold is deliberately set far too high. The goal is nothing to do with fairness and human dignity, but to act as a deterrant. The worst part, as I understand it, is that people who live overseas with foreign spouses cannot ever easily move back home with their family. Of course there is an exemption for the rich and very high earners though. Of course.
This is all a legacy of the pathological obsession with reducing net migration, from around 2010 onwards. This was emboldened by Brexit, which is viewed as being caused by concerns about immigration. Nothing is off limits, and no amount of consequential human tragedy and ruined lives will ever deter the government, in this respect. They believe that they are on the side of public opinion. It is a calculated policy to harm the lives of a minority, to serve the prejudices of a majority.
I have friends who have been through this particular nightmare, so I am highly sympathetic. The UK’s “income” stipulation is clumsy to the point of cruelty.
My point was that no western country allows automatic residency and right-to-work just because you get married. Eg the USA has the famous Green Card, entailing this:
“Marriage-Based Green Card Timeline
The total processing time for a marriage-based green card is anywhere from 9-36 months, depending on whether you’re married to a U.S. citizen or a U.S. green card holder (lawful permanent resident)”
Up to THREE years. It’s not easy. It’s likewise a deterrent
Quite correctly arrested for dangerous driving. The embassy might reflect on their reaction to this outrage, though.
“The embassy strongly condemns this criminal act of insanity directed against a peaceful diplomatic mission. The embassy views this incident as a clear and blatant violation of the article 22 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic relations of 1961. “The embassy is in contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs of Ireland, demanding that the Irish authorities take comprehensive measures to ensure the safety of its staff and their family members. “The incident is cause of extreme concern. We believe that no people of sound mind could support such senseless and barbaric actions,” the spokeswoman said.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
I do wish @charles would come back. The place was better with him here.
John Bercow found guilty of bullying House of Commons staff by standards watchdog
The ex-Speaker will banned for life from holding parliamentary pass for former members
In extraordinary 800-word statement, Bercow boasts he will be able to get around ban on holding a pass
"I can still attend debates with the help of a friendly passholder or go as a member of the public"
BUT it effectively kills off chances of him ever getting peerage approved
😡 Bercow describes investigation as:
a travesty of justice amateurish based on flimsiest evidence rooted in hearsay & baseless rumour a vengeful vendetta protracted unjust shambolic a disgrace to a democratic Parliament cowardly feeble a blatant stitch up beneath contempt
Mr Meeks, late of this parish used to challenge those who said Bercow’s peerage should be deferred until the outcome of the inquiry. Turns out to have been the right call.
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
Even some of his fiercest critics are admitting that Boris is working well with Zelenskyy and is being a good ally of Ukraine in the war, so of course certain people would rather we refocus onto other stuff instead of dealing with the war.
I would rather we be more generous to refugees flying them in from Poland (not Calais) but the top priority has to be winning the war.
An intelligent forum like this has no difficulty distinguishing between the positive actions of the PM in his dealings with Zelensky and other foreign leaders on the one hand, and the unanswered questions on Boris's charge sheet on the other.
We can deal with the latter in due course. First things first my friend.
I cannot see how Russia will 'win' this war. They may take Kiev, they may take all of Ukraine. But they have lost, and will lose, a massive amount of men and material in the process. Their international reputation will be nearly as low as their economy.
Even in victory, they will lose.
The question then becomes how low they will drag the rest of the world in their descent.
11:06 BREAKING Mariupol evacuation route under fire - reports We're getting reports that Russian forces are shelling an evacuation route out of the besieged city of Mariupol.
Ukrainian foreign ministry spokesperson Oleg Nikolenko said Russian forces were attacking the humanitarian corridor between the city and Zaporizhzhia, 225km (139 miles) to the north-east.
Eight trucks and 30 buses are on their way to deliver humanitarian aid to the city and to evacuate civilians to Zaporizhzhia, he said.
Civilians have been living there without running water or power for almost a week and food is running out.
So, is the Polish planes to Ukraine not happening now ☹️
I just heard Ben Wallace saying he’s blocked it?
He was on R4 this morning saying that the matter was entirely up to the Poles. Which it is (along with the US and their willingness to rapidly supply replacement aircraft).
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
And half this morning's front pages.
I'm pretty sure Poland is remarking the number of refugees, too. Something which is very much part of the war.
But nice try.
I said CALAIS refugees. Not just “refugees”. Of course the movement of potentially 5m people in Europe is enormously important. But the number stuck at the English channel due to a HMG SNAFU is tiny
Briefing to Telegraph that Ireland's open door policy is security risk to the UK has made headline news in Ireland. Minister Rod O'Gorman just asked about it on RTE. Says Ireland's welcome of refugees (2,200 v UK's 300) is part of EU-wide policy and "is the right thing to do". https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930
What I find particularly revolting about this is that these statements are being made by ministers in a government led by a Prime Minister who put a man in our legislature despite the security services having concerns about him.
Security concerns can be ignored if there's money in it for the Tories but an insuperable obstacle apparently when it comes to ordinary people fleeing for their lives.
Yes that is a good comparison.
Feels like the end for Patel this time, her colleagues have turned on her for letting the side down. Even Leon has put up the white flag on insisting “problem, what problem.”
Ultimately Boris surrounded himself with sycophants, and it didn’t make for a very good government for Tory’s to easily rally behind.
Barely half way into the term of office, unless something changes on this direction of travel Tories could be on for one of their worst ever GE vote shares.
For balance though we have to add, Labour yesterday rejected the EU type of very generous offer in favour of supporting Patel’s security check approach.
I'm in favour of security checks. They should be exactly the same as those done by the Tory party on all those Russians donating them money. Fair's fair, after all.
So, is the Polish planes to Ukraine not happening now ☹️
I just heard Ben Wallace saying he’s blocked it?
He was on R4 this morning saying that the matter was entirely up to the Poles. Which it is (along with the US and their willingness to rapidly supply replacement aircraft).
The last thing I saw on this is that the US is trying to setup a 3 way deal - the Poles give the Ukrainians the Mig 29s, and other allies contribute/lend spare fighters until the planed replacements for the Polish Migs arrive.
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
I’m sure they will treat it with the level of seriousness they usually treat this matter.
"The night of March 8 in capital Kyiv was the first night since the war began when the Ukrainian air defense intercepted and destroyed all Russian cruise missiles. No impacts registered in Kyiv this night."
If this is true, are the Ukrainians getting better at hitting cruise missiles out of the sky (probably with western help), were the Russians sending them elsewhere, or are the Russians running low on stocks or saving them for an offensive?
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
And half this morning's front pages.
I'm pretty sure Poland is remarking the number of refugees, too. Something which is very much part of the war.
But nice try.
And all over the BBC yesterday and today with interviews with some very eloquent people caught in the mess and photos of the posters put up by the British Authorities at Calais telling people 'tough'. It is the only reason I know.
Quite correctly arrested for dangerous driving. The embassy might reflect on their reaction to this outrage, though.
“The embassy strongly condemns this criminal act of insanity directed against a peaceful diplomatic mission. The embassy views this incident as a clear and blatant violation of the article 22 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic relations of 1961. “The embassy is in contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs of Ireland, demanding that the Irish authorities take comprehensive measures to ensure the safety of its staff and their family members. “The incident is cause of extreme concern. We believe that no people of sound mind could support such senseless and barbaric actions,” the spokeswoman said.
I am delighted to find that the road the Russian Embassy is on is called Orwell Road. For such masters of propaganda and disinformation it is magnificently appropriate.
I cannot see how Russia will 'win' this war. They may take Kiev, they may take all of Ukraine. But they have lost, and will lose, a massive amount of men and material in the process. Their international reputation will be nearly as low as their economy.
Even in victory, they will lose.
The question then becomes how low they will drag the rest of the world in their descent.
They might take Kiev, with great difficulty. They will not take all of Ukraine; they haven't the manpower. Their international reputation has been trashed. This has been a ruinous misadventure for Russia. It is hard to think of a more extreme example of a country ruining itself. The damage will last decades, if not centuries.
The closest the Russians can get to winning now would by plunging into a nuclear war and taking us all into the darkness with them.
I do not think it is likely, but it certainly possible. The West has played the crisis well so far. Fingers crossed it continues to do so.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
Jake Wallis Simons wrote about this in Jewish Chronicle the other day.
WRT to Ukraine, the most dangerous thing is if it turns in to something like the arab spring. People fighting against tyranny and seeking freedom only for the west to praise them but do nothing of substance to help them. Once the initial thrill of the Ukrainian resistance subsides and people realise that it the conflict is going to go on for years, the news agenda will move on to something else and the whole thing will potentially be forgotten. The fact that the discussion has moved on so much to refugees is not a particularly good omen.
It’s only moved on to Calais refugees in PB-land and a bit of Twitter that hates Boris and Patel
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
And half this morning's front pages.
I'm pretty sure Poland is remarking the number of refugees, too. Something which is very much part of the war.
But nice try.
I said CALAIS refugees. Not just “refugees”. Of course the movement of potentially 5m people in Europe is enormously important. But the number stuck at the English channel due to a HMG SNAFU is tiny
But nice try
PB Land and a bit of Twitter.
UK ‘has not been quick enough’ on Ukrainian refugees, admits Ben Wallace https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/ukrainian-refugees-uk-ben-wallace ...The home secretary, Priti Patel, told MPs on Monday that “we have staff in Calais, we have support on the ground” but the Home Office later said that a new processing centre for visas would be set up “en route to Calais” where refugees have been turned away at the crossing, having driven across Europe.
On Monday afternoon, there were still signs telling refugees to go to centres in Paris or Brussels...
Comments
Again it's a crap excuse designed to justify the utterly unjustifiable to keep xenophobes happy.
It was the Cathedral of Europe, attracting people from across the continent, like pilgrims, for 4000 years
For an exhibition which purports to “explain” Stonehenge, it actually deepens the mystery. Which is brilliant.
The fact I’m still banging on about it, two days after I went to see it, says something by itself
My point was that we can easily fix these things but we aren't actually doing so for politics...
But the other fact is that I could probably get 80% of Ukrainians in without any hassle - but you then have the idiot who is always bleating on about the other 20% without the ability to grasp how by fast tracking the easy cases you have more time to resolve the other ones.
Security concerns can be ignored if there's money in it for the Tories but an insuperable obstacle apparently when it comes to ordinary people fleeing for their lives.
it seems to be turning against the war, rather than hardening.
1/14 Whether Russians actually support the hideous war that Putin has waged against Ukraine is a matter of utmost political importance. The answer to this question will largely define Russia’s place in the history of the 21st century.
https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123330262380551
Patel sorts this out as the present position is untenable
Random shit posted on Twitter with no evidence means nothing. Both sides are highly motivated to lie as much as possible.
And that 73% is true today, in 2 years time those same voters will be asking what are all these Ukrainians doing here. While Patel isn't the brightest she knows what voters say now may not reflect their viewpoint at the 2024 election...
These are Brits who are married to Ukrainians so have Ukrainian children and relatives. They have driven to Poland to rescue them. They naturally drive back to Calais to return and are blocked.
I agree any case like that is absurd. Let them in. Pay a ferry company to bring them over safely
And that twitter is a vast repository of spin, lies and bullshit. And that is in peace-time.
Patel and her office need to resolve this now
There's probably a lot more looking at this, I haven't read into it greatly, just enough to understand that there is an issue and a better way to do it. The comparisons I mentioned doing were post hoc as the team had run pilot surveys with multiple choice before I joined the project and we switched to the yes/no random value type question. It was just interesting to see confirmation of the issue from our own survey results.
Edit: It's also a bit abstract as a queston anyway. People can't really imagine those numbers. More useful might be how many do you think your town could accept and then correlate with size of settlements, maybe. Even then, while you might have an idea of how many you'd comfortable take in Epping, if you live in London it's harder to say... Local Authority Districts, maybe.
But as a starting point it would be nice if we were allowing even those who have relatives here.
Last Sunday (27th Feb) I pointed out we weren't even letting in those with near relatives here (i.e. adult siblings, parents) - we could, say get to that point.
To "needs improvement" because too many pupils spend their time discussing identity rather than learning the subjects on the curriculum. It is really quite damning.
But what if they can't go back? I'm in favour of taking hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and if, tragically, they can't go back, then I am sure they will add to the rich tapestry of this country, as has been the case with people coming to the British Isles since before Stonehenge. I am less sure that the electorate would be happy in this case, although the polling has been trending towards being more favourable towards immigration and research suggests that populations are more welcoming to immigration in this sort of context.
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion you might be a little bit dim
These people are waiting with their British relatives in the car like you or I would to come back from a holiday, they're not in the Sangatte camp trying to hop aboard a dinghy. I'd imagine most would have paperwork on them, unlike most in the Sangatte camp.
Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud·47s🇷🇺 *SHELL ANNOUNCES INTENT TO WITHDRAW FROM RUSSIAN #OIL AND #GAS - BBG
*SHELL WILL STOP ALL SPOT PURCHASES OF RUSSIAN CRUDE OIL
Patel has also said 200,000 will be granted visas and it will be reviewed and to be honest that figure amy well need to rise
The problem I have is when listening to Patel she says all the right things but then fails to process them
Patel never has been suited to Home Secretary, but I also think this is a problem in the home office itself and those required to enact government policy. Far too much computer says no
As you say, good to see people are having a change of heart. Maybe if their compassion starts with Ukrainians, in time it will grow to Syrians etc.
I'm sure our more with it police forces and local authorities will be flying the appropriate flags, painting road crossings & sending out self-congratulatory tweets etc.
The only thing to read today is Anthony Lloyd's report on the front page of the Times. You need a strong stomach mind.
That's exactly what we are.
https://twitter.com/RichardElwes/status/1501144010089537538
Some years ago, I was engaged to a lady who had two sons. The local comprehensive was that rare thing - a school that competed with the finest private schools. Very posh neighbourhood.
Got called to the school. It seemed that one of the boys was being bullied. For "acting white" - getting high marks. My ex was from Ghana.
The principle said that she wasn't going to do anything to the bully. Who was the son of a diplomat, also from Africa. Because it was a cultural issue. My ex became extremely angry, pointing out that said diplomat came from an a very old, rich family in his country and in any case the son was dressing up as an American gangster, not any African culture....
The principle was, of course, white, middle class etc.
So we had a white person telling a first generation immigrant from Africa that she would do nothing about the immigrant's son being bullied out of an education....
So being more generous to Ukrainians as they are are on our continent, or Hong Kongers as we had a recent involvement and responsibility there is fine. It is the pretending we are being generous, when we are the opposite, that is very wrong.
SFAICS there is strong objection to refugee 'tourism'; the government fears this will happen if they are too open. The UK is a popular destination. 30% of our babies are born to foreign born mothers.
IMHO in the short and medium term the big issues with centre/centre right voters with refugees is: genuineness, proximity, desire to return asap, and cultural closeness. If France, Belgium or the Netherlands got invaded by an army wearing the new style Russian Zwastika 5 million would come here and we would accept it with a Gallic shrug. proximity is all.
The entire rest of the world is focused on the actual war
@FideliusSchmid
+++BREAKING++++ German Federal Prosecutor launches investigation into Russian war crimes in Ukraine +++++
@derspiegel
https://twitter.com/FideliusSchmid/status/1501128180052246528
I would rather we be more generous to refugees flying them in from Poland (not Calais) but the top priority has to be winning the war.
@olex_scherba·1m
Mayor of #BilaTserkva near Kyiv received per sms a proposal to surrender and save himself. His response: “Go f yourselves!”
#StandWithUkraine #RussianWarshipGoFYourself
https://twitter.com/olex_scherba
There is a vast gulf of comprehension between those who can think and apply this to.. life and those for whom a set of rigid rules are vital.
There is a receptionist at my GPs surgery like this - nice person, but if you go off script in any way, she gets into a panic. The universe is undone. We all treat her with a kind of special care - it must be horrible to go through life staggering from one panic to the next.....
Being called dim by you I will wear as a badge of honour, but avoid ad hominems if you can or I might reluctantly reach the conclusion that you are a prick.
I'm pretty sure Poland is remarking the number of refugees, too. Something which is very much part of the war.
But nice try.
This is all a legacy of the pathological obsession with reducing net migration, from around 2010 onwards. This was emboldened by Brexit, which is viewed as being caused by concerns about immigration. Nothing is off limits, and no amount of consequential human tragedy and ruined lives will ever deter the government, in this respect. They believe that they are on the side of public opinion. It is a calculated policy to harm the lives of a minority, to serve the prejudices of a majority.
Needless to say I knew nothing for a while so missed all the good wishes. Thank you everyone.
In response to questions all seems to have gone well. I got home just 1 day later. My cast is only up to my knee now and I will have problems getting through those machines in airports in future, but otherwise just bored and frustrated. NHS was very impressive.
How can Constable Savage be a bad person if he has done all his courses?
So now all I need to do is hang out the washing, vacuum, go shopping, prepare dinner, pick the little 'un up from school, help him with his homework ...
But because the UK is not offering effective safe routes to Ukrainian refugees they are in the same situation as asylum seekers from the Middle East and Africa and will potentially try to cross the Channel in rafts.
Calais is the symptom of the failure of the policy, not the policy itself.
Is the car sticker available yet?
Bercow being an utter See you Next Tuesday is not a surprise.
Feels like the end for Patel this time, her colleagues have turned on her for letting the side down. Even Leon has put up the white flag on insisting “problem, what problem.”
Ultimately Boris surrounded himself with sycophants, and it didn’t make for a very good government for Tory’s to easily rally behind.
Barely half way into the term of office, unless something changes on this direction of travel Tories could be on for one of their worst ever GE vote shares.
For balance though we have to add, Labour yesterday rejected the EU type of very generous offer in favour of supporting Patel’s security check approach.
My point was that no western country allows automatic residency and right-to-work just because you get married. Eg the USA has the famous Green Card, entailing this:
“Marriage-Based Green Card Timeline
The total processing time for a marriage-based green card is anywhere from 9-36 months, depending on whether you’re married to a U.S. citizen or a U.S. green card holder (lawful permanent resident)”
Up to THREE years. It’s not easy. It’s likewise a deterrent
I just heard Ben Wallace saying he’s blocked it?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/protective-barriers-erected-at-russian-embassy-after-truck-drives-through-gates-1.4820488
Mr Wisley then exited the vehicle and handed out photos of what he said were Russian atrocities in Ukraine.
“I just done this to create a safe corridor for the Russian ambassador to leave Ireland,” he said....
Quite correctly arrested for dangerous driving.
The embassy might reflect on their reaction to this outrage, though.
“The embassy strongly condemns this criminal act of insanity directed against a peaceful diplomatic mission. The embassy views this incident as a clear and blatant violation of the article 22 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic relations of 1961.
“The embassy is in contact with the Department of Foreign Affairs of Ireland, demanding that the Irish authorities take comprehensive measures to ensure the safety of its staff and their family members.
“The incident is cause of extreme concern. We believe that no people of sound mind could support such senseless and barbaric actions,” the spokeswoman said.
The ex-Speaker will banned for life from holding parliamentary pass for former members
In extraordinary 800-word statement, Bercow boasts he will be able to get around ban on holding a pass
"I can still attend debates with the help of a friendly passholder or go as a member of the public"
BUT it effectively kills off chances of him ever getting peerage approved
😡 Bercow describes investigation as:
a travesty of justice
amateurish
based on flimsiest evidence
rooted in hearsay & baseless rumour
a vengeful vendetta
protracted
unjust
shambolic
a disgrace to a democratic Parliament
cowardly
feeble
a blatant stitch up
beneath contempt
https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1501150738285740043
Mr Meeks, late of this parish used to challenge those who said Bercow’s peerage should be deferred until the outcome of the inquiry. Turns out to have been the right call.
We can deal with the latter in due course. First things first my friend.
Even in victory, they will lose.
The question then becomes how low they will drag the rest of the world in their descent.
11:06
BREAKING
Mariupol evacuation route under fire - reports
We're getting reports that Russian forces are shelling an evacuation route out of the besieged city of Mariupol.
Ukrainian foreign ministry spokesperson Oleg Nikolenko said Russian forces were attacking the humanitarian corridor between the city and Zaporizhzhia, 225km (139 miles) to the north-east.
Eight trucks and 30 buses are on their way to deliver humanitarian aid to the city and to evacuate civilians to Zaporizhzhia, he said.
Civilians have been living there without running water or power for almost a week and food is running out.
Which it is (along with the US and their willingness to rapidly supply replacement aircraft).
But nice try
PS - Why are these two short arses such bullies?
"The night of March 8 in capital Kyiv was the first night since the war began when the Ukrainian air defense intercepted and destroyed all Russian cruise missiles. No impacts registered in Kyiv this night."
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t99yul/the_night_of_march_8_in_capital_kyiv_was_the/
If this is true, are the Ukrainians getting better at hitting cruise missiles out of the sky (probably with western help), were the Russians sending them elsewhere, or are the Russians running low on stocks or saving them for an offensive?
But @Leon just twitter and PB.
The closest the Russians can get to winning now would by plunging into a nuclear war and taking us all into the darkness with them.
I do not think it is likely, but it certainly possible. The West has played the crisis well so far. Fingers crossed it continues to do so.
https://twitter.com/jakewsimons/status/1500883368438865921?s=21
I suspect in the future this school will become the norm rather than the exception as these ideas have been gaining traction for years.
UK ‘has not been quick enough’ on Ukrainian refugees, admits Ben Wallace
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/ukrainian-refugees-uk-ben-wallace
...The home secretary, Priti Patel, told MPs on Monday that “we have staff in Calais, we have support on the ground” but the Home Office later said that a new processing centre for visas would be set up “en route to Calais” where refugees have been turned away at the crossing, having driven across Europe.
On Monday afternoon, there were still signs telling refugees to go to centres in Paris or Brussels...