This is not the time for Patel to be Home Secretary – politicalbetting.com

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This is not the time for Patel to be Home Secretary – politicalbetting.com

What is becoming very clear is that there is a great deal of public involvement in the UK over the Ukraine crisis. People see terrible scenes on their televisions every evening and this has touched a raw nerve. Many want to find out if there is a way they can help relieve the terrible conditions many Ukrainians are having to put up with.

Read the full story here

Heathener

Good morning everyone.

I shan't hang around on here as I find it all too argumentative and angry at the moment, with some fairly pointless and petty fighting. I guess it's a way of venting the frustration and fury about the state of the world but there may be more wholesome ways of doing it than attempting to knock spots off an unknown stranger on what is normally a good and informative forum.

Have a nice day

xx

p.s. thank you to Mike and TSE for nevertheless continuing to put up excellent thread headers which are always worth reading and which I frequently share with friends.

Scott_xP

...

Scott_xP

Every Conservative MP needs to read today’s #Times leader. They must tell ⁦⁦@pritipatel⁩ & #BorisJohnson ‘s spads, PPS’s & whips the British people are appalled & ashamed at their failure to offer safe haven to #Ukraine refugees & we won’t forget come the next election https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1501095836784152581/photo/1

kle4

When would it be time?

kle4

She knows she's let down the grassroots so far and so is petrified of being more flexible no matter the reason is my initial reading.

eek

FPT

Stuartinromford said:

To be fair to BoJo, putting a techno border on the land border was bound to be infinitely harder than putting it at the sea and air ports. Putting the formalities at places where journeys paused anyway was always the sensible point. A transition that was exited when the land border was fixed would have gone on for a very long time.

But this isn't really about the inconvenience of goods travel across the Irish Sea, is it? It's about the symbolism, like most of you-know-what. That doesn't mean stupid; symbols are important. But problems with symbols rarely respond well to a technical fix.

By doing that Bozo created a customs border within his own country - that is a very unique "achievement" and the reason why the Unionists are so unhappy.

Malmesbury

Heathener said:

Good morning everyone.

I shan't hang around on here as I find it all too argumentative and angry at the moment, with some fairly pointless and petty fighting. I guess it's a way of venting the frustration and fury about the state of the world but there may be more wholesome ways of doing it than attempting to knock spots off an unknown stranger on what is normally a good and informative forum.

Have a nice day

xx

p.s. thank you to Mike and TSE for nevertheless continuing to put up excellent thread headers which are always worth reading and which I frequently share with friends.

If sensible people keep leaving - we will be left with 3 million copies of @SeanT and TankBoi - please reconsider.

kle4

Jonathan said:

It’s in pretty bad taste to equate Russia-Ukraine to England-Scotland. Undermines the case for independence.

I dont know a lot that but its very dumb and insulting to all sides. Some people cannot help but may the martyr, makes for a better story than real life.

JosiasJessop

Anecdotally, it seems the far right and the far left nutjobs are all converging on giving Russia either direct, or indirect, support.

It's another example where the extremes meet in the middle, albeit behind civilisation.

DecrepiterJohnL

OT HMG is advertising Covid boosters for pregnant women. Take-up down?

Maybe that will come next: vaxports for refugees.

Scott_xP

The gap between the British govt and the British public on help for Ukrainian refugees so growing.

A @RedfieldWilton poll for @NewStatesman: 64% want to grant visas without restriction. And 58% of Tory voters agreed.

https://inews.co.uk/news/ukrainian-refugees-are-getting-spin-and-chaos-from-priti-patel-not-the-urgent-help-they-need-1502283

It would be ironic for BoZo if having come to power on the back of this rhetoric



the same rhetoric turns people against him

StuartDickson

There is never a time for Patel to be Home Secretary. FPTP is a disgrace.

Big_G_NorthWales

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Scott_xP

There were more people invited to a Downing Street party during lockdown than Ukrainian refugees invited to the UK during a war.
https://twitter.com/darrylmorris/status/1500926620969934858

StuartDickson

Malmesbury said:

Heathener said:

Good morning everyone.

I shan't hang around on here as I find it all too argumentative and angry at the moment, with some fairly pointless and petty fighting. I guess it's a way of venting the frustration and fury about the state of the world but there may be more wholesome ways of doing it than attempting to knock spots off an unknown stranger on what is normally a good and informative forum.

Have a nice day

xx

p.s. thank you to Mike and TSE for nevertheless continuing to put up excellent thread headers which are always worth reading and which I frequently share with friends.

If sensible people keep leaving - we will be left with 3 million copies of @SeanT and TankBoi - please reconsider.

Sean will be along in a minute asking the Mod to ban you, and for Patel to have you executed.

dixiedean

Interested to see the US and Venezuela, if not cuddling up, at least exchanging glances.
Yet up thing unthinkable a fortnight ago.

IshmaelZ

Malmesbury said:

Heathener said:

Good morning everyone.

I shan't hang around on here as I find it all too argumentative and angry at the moment, with some fairly pointless and petty fighting. I guess it's a way of venting the frustration and fury about the state of the world but there may be more wholesome ways of doing it than attempting to knock spots off an unknown stranger on what is normally a good and informative forum.

Have a nice day

xx

p.s. thank you to Mike and TSE for nevertheless continuing to put up excellent thread headers which are always worth reading and which I frequently share with friends.

If sensible people keep leaving - we will be left with 3 million copies of @SeanT and TankBoi - please reconsider.

It also won't be great if we keep the sensible people but all they are allowed to do is agree with each other. And what @Heathener wants us all to agree to, is a full on no fly zone regardless of the consequences.

StuartDickson

eek said:

FPT

Stuartinromford said:

To be fair to BoJo, putting a techno border on the land border was bound to be infinitely harder than putting it at the sea and air ports. Putting the formalities at places where journeys paused anyway was always the sensible point. A transition that was exited when the land border was fixed would have gone on for a very long time.

But this isn't really about the inconvenience of goods travel across the Irish Sea, is it? It's about the symbolism, like most of you-know-what. That doesn't mean stupid; symbols are important. But problems with symbols rarely respond well to a technical fix.

By doing that Bozo created a customs border within his own country - that is a very unique "achievement" and the reason why the Unionists are so unhappy.

Ulster Unionists have now decided that Direct Rule from London is the only sustainable solution. Devolution and the GFA have failed.

Only problem is that the other parties (pro-unification parties; governments in Dublin, Washington and London) do not consider Direct Rule to be a sustainable solution.

Scott_xP

Wallace on R4 re Putin: "he is a spent force in the world and no one will be taking his calls.. he's exhausted his army .. he's reducing his economy to zero.. he's diminishing his own country in the world and he has to take responsibility for that."
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569

eek

Now we have top level trolling within the cabinet

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569
Harry Cole
@MrHarryCole
Wallace uses LBC interview to offer MoD staff support to Home Office to speed up processing of Ukrainian refugees....

Scott_xP

Ben Wallace joins Liz Truss in offering what is becoming the standard Cabinet defence on visas for refugees: "I'm not the Home Secretary, right?"
https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1501112667846684672

Wulfrun_Phil

Scott_xP said:

Wallace on R4 re Putin: "he is a spent force in the world and no one will be taking his calls.. he's exhausted his army .. he's reducing his economy to zero.. he's diminishing his own country in the world and he has to take responsibility for that."
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569

That's just rhetoric though. On the more immediate question of whether Poland should be supplied with additional aircraft to enable the transfer of 21 Mig 29s to the Ukraine without weakening their defences, Wallace seemed distinctly disappointingly lukewarm. Words to the effect that it's a matter for the Poles.

Farooq

Scott_xP said:

The gap between the British govt and the British public on help for Ukrainian refugees so growing.

A @RedfieldWilton poll for @NewStatesman: 64% want to grant visas without restriction. And 58% of Tory voters agreed.

https://inews.co.uk/news/ukrainian-refugees-are-getting-spin-and-chaos-from-priti-patel-not-the-urgent-help-they-need-1502283

It would be ironic for BoZo if having come to power on the back of this rhetoric



the same rhetoric turns people against him

The irony of that photo is they too were people forced from their homes by Russian aggression. And met in a Europe with hatred thanks, in part, to Russian social media campaigns to demonise refugees and Muslims. And those messages were amplified by and amplified Russian-backed far right parties.

One of the markers of an ignorant political commentators is when they mockingly say "Russians! Russians everywhere!" Especially in light of the situation in Belarus when people were being bussed to the Polish border and aided in attacking border fences. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that, but that was absolutely a prelude to this situation with Ukraine. An attempt to use refugees to harden European public opinion prior to the Ukraine adventure.

Nigelb

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

She tried to mislead the Commons, and was called on it by Yvette Cooper.
The Calais situation is entirely her responsibility.

You were telling us yesterday to wait for the figures to be announced last night on the number of refugees accepted. What do you make of it this morning ?

Pro_Rata

Too narrow to say it is just Patel, the Home Office itself, with its culture of squashing on immigration by any means possible fair or foul, rather than doing the hard miles to put in fair systems that work to manage immigration, is unfit for this task.

That Patel is unfit to change that culture, because it actually suits her to have a failing immigration system is just the cherry on the cake.

Scott_xP

Interesting and heartwarming to hear @iainmartin1 - a #brexit voter - recognise that with #UkraineUnderAttaсk the Brexit era assumptions and thinking around Europe and European solidarity are hopelessly out of date and morally wrong. https://twitter.com/LizWebsterLD/status/1500852268526092289/video/1

CarlottaVance

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Scott_xP

Briefing to Telegraph that Ireland's open door policy is security risk to the UK has made headline news in Ireland. Minister Rod O'Gorman just asked about it on RTE. Says Ireland's welcome of refugees (2,200 v UK's 300) is part of EU-wide policy and "is the right thing to do". https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930

Malmesbury

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Scott_xP said:

Wallace on R4 re Putin: "he is a spent force in the world and no one will be taking his calls.. he's exhausted his army .. he's reducing his economy to zero.. he's diminishing his own country in the world and he has to take responsibility for that."
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569

That's just rhetoric though. On the more immediate question of whether Poland should be supplied with additional aircraft to enable the transfer of 21 Mig 29s to the Ukraine without weakening their defences, Wallace seemed distinctly disappointingly lukewarm. Words to the effect that it's a matter for the Poles.

Well, it's a matter between the Poles and the US (primarily) - The Poles were/are buying F-35 to replace the Mig-29. If they get rid of the Mig-29 now, that leaves a gap. And there aren't a row of F-35s sitting at your local dealer - each and every production slot has been sold for years into the future.

Given the situation, the Poles are apparently not keen on just leaving a gap. Understandable.

So, presumably, there are some negotiations between the Pole and the US (and potentially other users) about swapping slots in the production line to get F-35 to Poland faster, leasing some aircraft to fill the gap etc.

Scott_xP

a lot of 'not my dept, guv' responses from rest of Cabinet when asked about refugees (Liz Truss yesterday, Ben Wallace today) but this is the post-Brexit immigration approach they signed up for surely, whether Patel is implementing it competently or not.
https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1501113729328500738

malcolmg

eek said:

FPT

Stuartinromford said:

To be fair to BoJo, putting a techno border on the land border was bound to be infinitely harder than putting it at the sea and air ports. Putting the formalities at places where journeys paused anyway was always the sensible point. A transition that was exited when the land border was fixed would have gone on for a very long time.

But this isn't really about the inconvenience of goods travel across the Irish Sea, is it? It's about the symbolism, like most of you-know-what. That doesn't mean stupid; symbols are important. But problems with symbols rarely respond well to a technical fix.

By doing that Bozo created a customs border within his own country - that is a very unique "achievement" and the reason why the Unionists are so unhappy.

Getting their just desserts.

Scott_xP

LME suspends nickel trading after unprecedented price spike
https://twitter.com/flacqua/status/1501112330205155334

Farooq

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It really doesn't matter. It's in nobody's gift to tie future parliaments. If the Scottish people want a referendum, they should have one. The idea of fencing people in using a years-old statement from a failed politician who was on the losing side is pretty weak.

malcolmg

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It was not in the agreement or the referendum at all. No manner of unionist revisionism can make it real.
Democracy has been denied to Scotland, whilst Westminster trumpets about freedom for all countries but Scotland.

RochdalePioneers

Thanks for putting "let them drown" in the header. That was clearly the implication of her policy to stop the boats. Hence even the navy and coastguard pointing out the stupidity of the "plan".

Despite the desperate attempts on here by the morally desperate to defend this, Britain stands alone. And not in a good way. You have to ask at which point we u-turn as we already have in increments.

Razedabode

kle4 said:

She knows she's let down the grassroots so far and so is petrified of being more flexible no matter the reason is my initial reading.

Spot on. The English Channel crossings have meant she’s cracking down - in the wrong area..

CarlottaVance

Maybe I’m an insufferable cynic, but perhaps the government’s failures over U.K. visas for Ukrainian war refugees has less to do with xenophobia and more to do with the government’s incompetence ineptitude & assorted failures

https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/1501114784162451459

Scott_xP

The subtext here is not subtle

SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH. @ukhomeoffice needs to move today from pettifogging process to active delivery. Stop “computer says no” mindset and get on and help. Don’t criticise Irish Republic: replicate it. Remember how we responded to Ugandan Asian crisis? We can and must do this
https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1501111808945532930
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1500962068119314435

IanB2

kle4 said:

She knows she's let down the grassroots so far and so is petrified of being more flexible no matter the reason is my initial reading.

And equally pertinent, she isn't reacting out of genuine compassion or sympathy for the refugees and is only being prompted to give the matter her attention because of bad media.

Razedabode

eek said:

Now we have top level trolling within the cabinet

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569
Harry Cole
@MrHarryCole
Wallace uses LBC interview to offer MoD staff support to Home Office to speed up processing of Ukrainian refugees....

Wallace knows he is in a position of strength. Look at how he dealt with the Raab incompetence over Afghanistan - now the not so guarded comments about helping the home office.

Quite clear he knows they’re all utterly useless

CarlottaVance

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It was not in the agreement or the referendum at all. No manner of unionist revisionism can make it real.
Democracy has been denied to Scotland, whilst Westminster trumpets about freedom for all countries but Scotland.

The Edinburgh Agreement said both signatories would respect the result of the vote. Why should we believe anything the Nationalists sign up to?

Big_G_NorthWales

Nigelb said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

She tried to mislead the Commons, and was called on it by Yvette Cooper.
The Calais situation is entirely her responsibility.

You were telling us yesterday to wait for the figures to be announced last night on the number of refugees accepted. What do you make of it this morning ?

Not acceptable and she has to put her fine words at the dispatch box into action but on her record on the channel I fear she will fail which is not acceptable

Good to see Ben Wallace intervening this morning

Andy_JS

"Gerhard Schroeder is the most dangerous of Putin's useful idiots
Former chancellor encapsulates everything wrong with Germany's approach to Russia
Ben Marlow"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/08/putin-apologist-gerhard-schroeder-encapsulates-everything-wrong/

eek

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

Farooq

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It was not in the agreement or the referendum at all. No manner of unionist revisionism can make it real.
Democracy has been denied to Scotland, whilst Westminster trumpets about freedom for all countries but Scotland.

Even if it was part of the agreement, even if it was part of the referendum, it wouldn't matter. There is an objective measure of how long we should wait before having a referendum, and it's got nothing to do with what Alex Salmond, Boris Johnson, Theresa May, Gordon Brown, or anyone else thinks.
It's a mandate from the people. If that comes six months, six years, or never, it's up to the voters.

All this futzing around with dusty old pamphlets and long-expired manifestos is a distraction from the core principle that a nation must always have the absolute right to self determination through the ballot box.

CarlottaVance

Interesting: open source intelligence researchers using commercial satellite imagery concur with Pentagon assessment that 100% of the Russian force built up to invade Ukraine has now been committed

https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1501108892385923073

IshmaelZ

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Bloody hell, was it worth carrying this over from a previous thread? For the millionth bloody time, he wasn't and had no right to bind anyone to any future course of action. It's just a thing people say at referendums.

And OK it's an ad hominem point but why sit on bloody Jersey trying to bully the Scots? Either move to the Hebrides, or concentrate your fire on the Sark separatists.

HYUFD

Patel is actually not a million miles from public opinion on this.

While 76% of British voters back taking in some Ukranian refugees, as we are, just 15% of British voters are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees into the UK

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498979522221326337?s=20&t=mrIsd8D2ap5Sjj4UUbmmPw

71% of voters overall and 93% of Tories also back using the Navy to prevent boats of migrants crossing the Channel


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/08/13/support-RAF-Navy-English-Channel-migrant-crossing

malcolmg

CarlottaVance said:

Maybe I’m an insufferable cynic, but perhaps the government’s failures over U.K. visas for Ukrainian war refugees has less to do with xenophobia and more to do with the government’s incompetence ineptitude & assorted failures

https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/1501114784162451459

It does not make them any money so they don't care anything about it.

Razedabode

CarlottaVance said:

Interesting: open source intelligence researchers using commercial satellite imagery concur with Pentagon assessment that 100% of the Russian force built up to invade Ukraine has now been committed

https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1501108892385923073

Interesting - I wonder if the Russians expected to use it all..

eek

Remember my post a while back that said that Everton are going to be relegated

well https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60551040 confirms my theory that Frank Lampard was very much the wrong choice.

Wayne Rooney will be leading Everton to the Championship next season...

CarlottaVance

Not happening next year anyway:

The SNP could delay a second independence vote until after 2023 due to the Ukraine crisis, according to the party’s Westminster chief.

Ian Blackford said a referendum should be held in a “timely manner” and said the SNP must be “mindful of where we are” following Russia’s invasion.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/3078491/ian-blackford-snp-independence-ukraine/

CD13

It seems we have bouts of dyspepsia from time to time, but things usually even out. I admit I can't see a logical way out for Vlad. He's trashed the brand and burrowed into a corner. But what do I know?

His problem is that he's an activist, someone who knows he's saving the world from itself. Facts won't matter, and he has power. BoJo is lazy and incompetent, but that first quality can be an asset. It's when he starts doing things that the problems arise.

I'm tempted to sell my vote as long as the recipient promises to do as little as possible and have no fixed opinions. That sounds horribly like Boris, but at least, he doesn't go around nailing his head to the motorway to show his virtue-signalling. He does, however, show his green credentials by heading for zero carbon at full speed. Get over nuclear power, you Greens, it's the future whether you like it or not. It runs 24/7, given that tidal power has eye-watering start-up costs, and no government looks to the long-term - no matter what they say.

Mexicanpete

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get them?

dixiedean

CarlottaVance said:

Interesting: open source intelligence researchers using commercial satellite imagery concur with Pentagon assessment that 100% of the Russian force built up to invade Ukraine has now been committed

https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1501108892385923073

"Ou est la masse de manoeuvre?"
"Aucune."

nico679

The first response to the invasion and visas from Patel shows her true colours.

A horrible person lacking in any humanity.

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

Patel is actually not a million miles from public opinion on this.

While 76% of British voters back taking in some Ukranian refugees, as we are, just 15% of British voters are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees into the UK

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498979522221326337?s=20&t=mrIsd8D2ap5Sjj4UUbmmPw

You spectacularly miss the point

Patel said to wait for the numbers until last night and when released it was just 300

I listened to her at the dispatch box with her fine words, but these words have to translate into action with all 17,700 applications the home office said they had received granted in the next few days

IshmaelZ

nico679 said:

The first response to the invasion and visas from Patel shows her true colours.

A horrible person lacking in any humanity.

Cabinet collective responsibility. I think we can spread the loathing a little bit wider.

algarkirk

Scott_xP said:

a lot of 'not my dept, guv' responses from rest of Cabinet when asked about refugees (Liz Truss yesterday, Ben Wallace today) but this is the post-Brexit immigration approach they signed up for surely, whether Patel is implementing it competently or not.
https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1501113729328500738

This is a bit skewed. No post Brexit understanding about migration policy took into account the possibility of millions of Europeans being on the move from war and war crimes. Brexit is nothing much to do with it.

What is the case, and the liberal media tacitly acknowledge this over Ukraine by giving it much more coverage than they do to Syria or wars in Africa, is that populations make differences in their minds about both mass migration and refugee positions.

Poles cheerfully accept millions of Ukrainians but dodn't accept millions of Syrians etc etc.

Underlying all this are two factors: proximity and cultural likeness.

We are distant from Ukraine and should take many many but probably not millions. Suppose France or the Netherlands was surrounded by genocidal enemies on every side. Millions would come here and we would accept it and deal with it.

This is not a defence of Patel who is awful.

dixiedean

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

tlg86

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Do you think someone turning up Calais saying they are Ukrainian should be allowed in no questions asked?

eek

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Yep - because that isn't plausible.

We have a strange idea about how other people use ID because we don't carry an Id card around all the time...

Most Europeans automatically carry them.

And as I said yesterday 99% of people will have their passport or ID card with them.

So you can improve things instantly by allowing the 99% with passports through leaving the manual work for the few that have lost / not got / are falsely claiming.

MattW

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Scott_xP said:

Wallace on R4 re Putin: "he is a spent force in the world and no one will be taking his calls.. he's exhausted his army .. he's reducing his economy to zero.. he's diminishing his own country in the world and he has to take responsibility for that."
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569

That's just rhetoric though. On the more immediate question of whether Poland should be supplied with additional aircraft to enable the transfer of 21 Mig 29s to the Ukraine without weakening their defences, Wallace seemed distinctly disappointingly lukewarm. Words to the effect that it's a matter for the Poles.

It is a matter for the Poles.

I don't see them doing it unless they are taken out of the supply loop - eg part-exchange for later US fighters, and US then supplies.

It's a shocker that the thing has even been discussed publicly.

RochdalePioneers

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Morning! So glad that you have now understood the true position on this issue.

CarlottaVance

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Bloody hell, was it worth carrying this over from a previous thread? For the millionth bloody time, he wasn't and had no right to bind anyone to any future course of action. It's just a thing people say at referendums.

And OK it's an ad hominem point but why sit on bloody Jersey trying to bully the Scots? Either move to the Hebrides, or concentrate your fire on the Sark separatists.

Are the only people allowed to have an opinion on the future of the U.K. resident in the Hebrides?

I’m just interested in keeping Malc straight on the facts - we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

And the “once in a generation” was in an official Scottish Government publication, not some “off the cuff remark”.

I am open to the argument that it’s optimistic to believe much the SNP says, but them’s the facts of what they wrote.

bondegezou

Farooq said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It really doesn't matter. It's in nobody's gift to tie future parliaments. If the Scottish people want a referendum, they should have one. The idea of fencing people in using a years-old statement from a failed politician who was on the losing side is pretty weak.

The polling suggests they do not want one.

IshmaelZ

CarlottaVance said:

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Bloody hell, was it worth carrying this over from a previous thread? For the millionth bloody time, he wasn't and had no right to bind anyone to any future course of action. It's just a thing people say at referendums.

And OK it's an ad hominem point but why sit on bloody Jersey trying to bully the Scots? Either move to the Hebrides, or concentrate your fire on the Sark separatists.

Are the only people allowed to have an opinion on the future of the U.K. resident in the Hebrides?

I’m just interested in keeping Malc straight on the facts - we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

And the “once in a generation” was in an official Scottish Government publication, not some “off the cuff remark”.

I am open to the argument that it’s optimistic to believe much the SNP says, but them’s the facts of what they wrote.

No, it's just the relentless peering through other peoples' front curtains. When you are not telling Malc he has to belong in the UK you are telling the rest of us how grateful and happy we are to live in Brexit Britain. Come and try it.

eek

tlg86 said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Do you think someone turning up Calais saying they are Ukrainian should be allowed in no questions asked?

Nope but what about the people claiming to be Ukrainian with paperwork to prove it - that could easily be delegated to someone in Calais / Lille with confirmation again at Dover / St Pancras.

It's interesting to note the attitudes of those people on here who wish to be awkward - they look at the worst case example and instantly assume everyone will be in the same boat.

The reality is that I could probably get 6000+ people into the UK a day just by applying the common sense approach of has a valid Ukrainian passport - visa granted.

kamski

dixiedean said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

Ukrainians are required to have ID cards

HYUFD

CarlottaVance said:

Not happening next year anyway:

The SNP could delay a second independence vote until after 2023 due to the Ukraine crisis, according to the party’s Westminster chief.

Ian Blackford said a referendum should be held in a “timely manner” and said the SNP must be “mindful of where we are” following Russia’s invasion.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/3078491/ian-blackford-snp-independence-ukraine/

I believe Malc now backs Alba, as he realises the SNP will do sod all about independence as long as they have their backsides on House of Commons seats plus fine dining and expenses and as long as Sturgeon gets to stay in Bute House as First Minister

MattW

dixiedean said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

Compulsory identity card.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_identity_card

I wonder if a Russian passport counts?

IshmaelZ

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Morning! So glad that you have now understood the true position on this issue.

Only a first step.

I am mostly out today, but if you could try, say about lunch time, to introduce the concept of collective cabinet responsibility...

turbotubbs

StuartDickson said:

There is never a time for Patel to be Home Secretary. FPTP is a disgrace.

It might be, but the last time the public were asked they voted to keep it.

Toms

Thinking of the Ukraine and two presidents, here's an article by a great essayist:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/opinion/zelensky-ukraine-trump.html

dixiedean

eek said:

Remember my post a while back that said that Everton are going to be relegated

well https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60551040 confirms my theory that Frank Lampard was very much the wrong choice.

Wayne Rooney will be leading Everton to the Championship next season...

We didn't want Benitez, because... reasons.
The touching belief that simply getting rid of one of the top managers in the world, and replacing him with a bloke who was decent at football,
would turn it around because he wasn't a Red, shows just how dysfunctional the club is at every level.
Moshiri is proof that money isn't everything. I wistfully long for the days of a Moyes team of League One signings coming a comfortable tenth and putting the wind up everyone we played.
I was of the belief we could go down in January. I posted the 8-1 value here.
Rooney will be next.
Only hope is to get DCL back to full form and fitness.
Yes. Rooney next.

CarlottaVance

MattW said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Scott_xP said:

Wallace on R4 re Putin: "he is a spent force in the world and no one will be taking his calls.. he's exhausted his army .. he's reducing his economy to zero.. he's diminishing his own country in the world and he has to take responsibility for that."
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1501111129724141569

That's just rhetoric though. On the more immediate question of whether Poland should be supplied with additional aircraft to enable the transfer of 21 Mig 29s to the Ukraine without weakening their defences, Wallace seemed distinctly disappointingly lukewarm. Words to the effect that it's a matter for the Poles.

It is a matter for the Poles.

I don't see them doing it unless they are taken out of the supply loop - eg part-exchange for later US fighters, and US then supplies.

It's a shocker that the thing has even been discussed publicly.

Yes - this should have been done quietly and discretely, not having Borrell trumpeting that “the EU is sending Ukraine 70 warplanes”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-war-eu-diplomats-plan-to-send-aircraft-derided-as-absurd-p5fwkrmv2

Mexicanpete

dixiedean said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

Mind you providing documentary proof for my late father in his final years were a trial. An expired passport, revoked driving license (health issue) didn't cut the mustard, and we would take several attempts at HMG questionnaires. Imagine the buggy software programmes HMG use too.

And sod going back to Paris or Brussels, personally I'd decamp in Calais and let the French take care of me.

dixiedean

kamski said:

dixiedean said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

Ukrainians are required to have ID cards

I know. But there has been talk of passports. Are they a requirement for a UK visa?

another_richard

It seems to me that the UK's immigration agency is much like many other UK government agencies - preferring to harass the innocent for box ticking purposes rather than concentrate on those who are ignoring the rules entirely.

Big_G_NorthWales

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Morning! So glad that you have now understood the true position on this issue.

As I posted yesterday I wanted to hear Patel 's version at the dispatch box and listening to her she was on top of her brief but then the figures of 300 out of 17,700 were released last night and like the channel crossings Patel's words do not translate into action

This may of course be down to the civil servants and a general lack of urgency, but clearly some checks are needed, as indeed labour have agreed, but the most important part of all of this is just common sense and discretion

I expect a lot of the Ukrainians do not have passports or even documents and computer says no is just not acceptable

Patel needs to ramp up and speed up the approvals

IshmaelZ

tlg86 said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Do you think someone turning up Calais saying they are Ukrainian should be allowed in no questions asked?

How many faux ukraniens do you think are plotting to exploit this loophole and to turn up with no papers at all and no papered person to vouch for them? How many do you think would falsely persuade a Home Office team advised by native Ukrainian speakers they were the real deal?

dixiedean

another_richard said:

It seems to me that the UK's immigration agency is much like many other UK government agencies - preferring to harass the innocent for box ticking purposes rather than concentrate on those who are ignoring the rules entirely.

Indeed. There is a default assumption that folk must be cheating the system in some way. Rather than being merely disorganised/incompetent/illiterate.
This isn't just a Home Office issue.

Slackbladder

bondegezou said:

Farooq said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

It really doesn't matter. It's in nobody's gift to tie future parliaments. If the Scottish people want a referendum, they should have one. The idea of fencing people in using a years-old statement from a failed politician who was on the losing side is pretty weak.

The polling suggests they do not want one.

The number one rule of referendums is you only call them if you know the result, or if you absolutely have to.

The SNP had a window post Brexit and when Johnson was PM. Since then, the pandemic and now Ukraine/Russia has made it more difficult for them.

Not sure that window is coming back soon, so any referendum is a big big risk for them

HYUFD

turbotubbs said:

StuartDickson said:

There is never a time for Patel to be Home Secretary. FPTP is a disgrace.

It might be, but the last time the public were asked they voted to keep it.

Correct, even in Scotland 63% voted for FPTP for Westminster elections over AV in 2011

nico679

What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .

This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .

CarlottaVance

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Bloody hell, was it worth carrying this over from a previous thread? For the millionth bloody time, he wasn't and had no right to bind anyone to any future course of action. It's just a thing people say at referendums.

And OK it's an ad hominem point but why sit on bloody Jersey trying to bully the Scots? Either move to the Hebrides, or concentrate your fire on the Sark separatists.

Are the only people allowed to have an opinion on the future of the U.K. resident in the Hebrides?

I’m just interested in keeping Malc straight on the facts - we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

And the “once in a generation” was in an official Scottish Government publication, not some “off the cuff remark”.

I am open to the argument that it’s optimistic to believe much the SNP says, but them’s the facts of what they wrote.

No, it's just the relentless peering through other peoples' front curtains. When you are not telling Malc he has to belong in the UK you are telling the rest of us how grateful and happy we are to live in Brexit Britain. Come and try it.

I note you have no answer to Malc’s “wrong” facts.

Since you appear to have developed a stalkerish interest in my physical location I now live in “Brexit Britain”.

And for your general education, Sark is part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, not Jersey. And in irony of ironies had democracy imposed on it against the popular will….

tlg86

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Do you think someone turning up Calais saying they are Ukrainian should be allowed in no questions asked?

How many faux ukraniens do you think are plotting to exploit this loophole and to turn up with no papers at all and no papered person to vouch for them? How many do you think would falsely persuade a Home Office team advised by native Ukrainian speakers they were the real deal?

Whites only?

Serious question as there are immigrants in Ukraine, too. Note that the test is about residency rather than nationality.

IshmaelZ

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Morning! So glad that you have now understood the true position on this issue.

As I posted yesterday I wanted to hear Patel 's version at the dispatch box and listening to her she was on top of her brief but then the figures of 300 out of 17,700 were released last night and like the channel crossings Patel's words ro not relate to action

This may of course be down to the civil servants and a general lack of urgency, but clearly some checks are needed, as indeed labour have agreed, but the most important part of all of this is just common sense and discretion

I expect a lot of the Ukrainians do not have passports or even documents and computer says no is just not acceptable

Patel needs to ramp up and speed up the approvals

No reason to expect that. The first thing you take is your identity papers unless you are making yourself deliberately stateless. All Ukrainians have ID cards. But PP is welcome to establish a sonderkommando to deal with the edgiest of edge cases where people turn up with absolutely nothing.

StillWaters

Solution for Crimea: an independent statelet with Dhezzar Pamir Giray as Khan. (Limited powers of course, as a head of state, with an elected parliament). Enforced neutrality.

Russia gets to retain Sevastopol Ona 25 year lease

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giray_dynasty

Leon

Fpt for @foxy on unexpected travel by ye olden people


Check out the amazing World of Stonehenge exhibition at the British Museum. It’s so good I’m going back again this week. I’ve NEVER revisited a temporary exhibition before

They have this thing called the NEBRA SKY DISC. The oldest known map of the cosmos. 4000 years old. A flat metallic orrery. Unearthed a few years ago in Germany. Yet the gold embedded in it… comes from Cornwall

Or see the buried archer from near Stonehenge. The Amesbury grave. Also about 4000 years old. Yet this guy was born in the Alps?!

It’s a mind blowing, spine tingling exhibition. Go!

rottenborough

nico679 said:

What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .

This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .

Russians terrorists/agents pretending to be Ukr. We know there are a lot in Ukr already.

dixiedean

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

I have been wondering what proportion of the population of Ukraine had passports?

Mind you providing documentary proof for my late father in his final years were a trial. An expired passport, revoked driving license (health issue) didn't cut the mustard, and we would take several attempts at HMG questionnaires. Imagine the buggy software programmes HMG use too.

And sod going back to Paris or Brussels, personally I'd decamp in Calais and let the French take care of me.

Yeah. I've recently rented a flat with a passport which expired during the pandemic. And no driving licence.
It wasn't easy at all. An ID card would have been hugely handy tbh.

IanB2

HYUFD said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not happening next year anyway:

The SNP could delay a second independence vote until after 2023 due to the Ukraine crisis, according to the party’s Westminster chief.

Ian Blackford said a referendum should be held in a “timely manner” and said the SNP must be “mindful of where we are” following Russia’s invasion.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/3078491/ian-blackford-snp-independence-ukraine/

I believe Malc now backs Alba, as he realises the SNP will do sod all about independence as long as they have their backsides on House of Commons seats plus fine dining and expenses and as long as Sturgeon gets to stay in Bute House as First Minister

If only Farage and the Tory nutters had had such a mature outlook

Luckyguy1983

I think she's doing fine. The immediate safety of people fleeing Ukraine is the priority. Regarding whether they can then come to the UK, I would prefer the approach of getting it right and making the system workable and sustainable. Ireland's actions, as we heard yesterday, may cause real issues in the longer term.

IanB2

nico679 said:

What exactly are the security concerns re Ukrainians .

This excuse by Patel is being used to put roadblocks in the visa process .

Russian spies, presumably

Andy_JS

"McDonald's and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow over Russia"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60649214

IshmaelZ

CarlottaVance said:

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

IshmaelZ said:

CarlottaVance said:

FPT:

malcolmg said:

felix said:

RochdalePioneers said:

felix said:

malcolmg said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kle4 said:

A repeat message, to the people of Europe:

If you even think about joining NATO we will invade you.
If you are in NATO we probably won't.
Therefore, please stop wanting to join NATO.

8n the future, the EU will have its own defence force, that could defend RUkraine. Of course, I don't see how that's any better for Russia. But I suppose it won't be lead by the US or include the UK. So perhaps its more palatable.

I expect the UK will be very much part of the EU defence planning and indeed a closer relationship all round

I doubt it, and I most certainly hope not. An independent army is an essential feature of a free country.

So Scotland isn't a free country?

Most certainly is NOT. We are ruled by bour much bigger neighbour who will not let us be independent or join the EU. Strange parallels with just the bombs missing.

Your absurdity is barely exceeded these days by your language. The only people stopping Scottish independence are Scottish voters.

How does that work? Scottish voters just turned out in record numbers to vote in a national election to elect a record number of pro-independence MSPs. And are being told no by the Essicks Massiv, that however we vote we can't have it.

A 'once in a generation vote'.

That is a bare faced lie, show me where in the Edinburgh agreement that was written, and do not give me the bollox fact that Salmond said on a broadcast that it was a once in ageneration chance.
BARE FACED LIE.

It was in the Scottish Government’s prospectus “Scotland’s Future”.

In black and white.

Written down.

Not some “off the cuff” remark in a TV interview as some of the more credulous Nats like to claim.

Bloody hell, was it worth carrying this over from a previous thread? For the millionth bloody time, he wasn't and had no right to bind anyone to any future course of action. It's just a thing people say at referendums.

And OK it's an ad hominem point but why sit on bloody Jersey trying to bully the Scots? Either move to the Hebrides, or concentrate your fire on the Sark separatists.

Are the only people allowed to have an opinion on the future of the U.K. resident in the Hebrides?

I’m just interested in keeping Malc straight on the facts - we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

And the “once in a generation” was in an official Scottish Government publication, not some “off the cuff remark”.

I am open to the argument that it’s optimistic to believe much the SNP says, but them’s the facts of what they wrote.

No, it's just the relentless peering through other peoples' front curtains. When you are not telling Malc he has to belong in the UK you are telling the rest of us how grateful and happy we are to live in Brexit Britain. Come and try it.

I note you have no answer to Malc’s “wrong” facts.

Since you appear to have developed a stalkerish interest in my physical location I now live in “Brexit Britain”.

And for your general education, Sark is part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, not Jersey. And in irony of ironies had democracy imposed on it against the popular will….

I have rehearsed for the 3m th time why your point is utter nonsense. It suggests you think that a campaigning pamphlet can arbitrarily suspend a national right recognises by the UN. It is just embarrassing garbage.

Glad to welcome you into the fold. It's nice here.

dixiedean

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I agree that Patel is not the right home secretary at this time

I listened to her at the dispatch box yesterday and she is forceful and seemed to respond to the questions, but clearly her words are not being matched by evidence in the field and she has utterly failed on the channel crossings

Certainly the situation in Calais is unacceptable and unless she rapidly improves then the criticism will justifiably increase

Morning! So glad that you have now understood the true position on this issue.

As I posted yesterday I wanted to hear Patel 's version at the dispatch box and listening to her she was on top of her brief but then the figures of 300 out of 17,700 were released last night and like the channel crossings Patel's words ro not relate to action

This may of course be down to the civil servants and a general lack of urgency, but clearly some checks are needed, as indeed labour have agreed, but the most important part of all of this is just common sense and discretion

I expect a lot of the Ukrainians do not have passports or even documents and computer says no is just not acceptable

Patel needs to ramp up and speed up the approvals

No reason to expect that. The first thing you take is your identity papers unless you are making yourself deliberately stateless. All Ukrainians have ID cards. But PP is welcome to establish a sonderkommando to deal with the edgiest of edge cases where people turn up with absolutely nothing.

Not easy if your home has been flattened by a Russian shell, mind.

IshmaelZ

tlg86 said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Mexicanpete said:

eek said:

A quick guide for any Ukrainian refugees

In all the excitement of fleeing a warzone I left my driving licence passport and utility bill on the kitchen table. Do I need to go back and get it?

Do you think someone turning up Calais saying they are Ukrainian should be allowed in no questions asked?

How many faux ukraniens do you think are plotting to exploit this loophole and to turn up with no papers at all and no papered person to vouch for them? How many do you think would falsely persuade a Home Office team advised by native Ukrainian speakers they were the real deal?

Whites only?

Serious question as there are immigrants in Ukraine, too. Note that the test is about residency rather than nationality.

Oh look, an edge case.

She can fast track whites, if she wants to enhance her reputation within the party, sure.

NickPalmer

HYUFD said:

Patel is actually not a million miles from public opinion on this.

While 76% of British voters back taking in some Ukranian refugees, as we are, just 15% of British voters are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian refugees into the UK

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498979522221326337?s=20&t=mrIsd8D2ap5Sjj4UUbmmPw

71% of voters overall and 93% of Tories also back using the Navy to prevent boats of migrants crossing the Channel


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/08/13/support-RAF-Navy-English-Channel-migrant-crossing

As usual in these polls people generally picked a middle option. But there has always been a willingness to accept genuine refugees from a desperate situation if they came through an official channel. The way we're making the official channel as difficult as possible does not reflect most people's wishes as they see the catastrophe unfolding on their sscreens.

Responsibility for resettling refugees in my borough is in my portfolio. We've received exactly three families through the Home Office system so far. We've said repeatedly that we'll be glad to take more, and I know many other boroughs are doing the same. Instead, the Government is housing large numbers of Afghans in hostels at taxpayers' expense while they ponder the paperwork, and making the process ludicrously difficult for Ukrainians.

Why?