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Sunak and Truss drop sharply in the next PM betting – politicalbetting.com

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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,598
    edited March 2022
    Heathener said:

    MattW said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Okay I'll take a wager with any one of you for just a tenner that Ukraine will not feature on the front print page of three of the following on a single day between now and the end of next month:

    The Sun
    The Daily Mail
    The Daily Telegraph
    The Times
    The Guardian
    The Independent
    The i
    The Daily Express

    You going for London Bridge, huh?
    ? Don't understand.

    I'm sure it's a clever comment but to someone who you don't have marked for intelligence you might have to stoop to explain.
    The death of HM the Q....
    Oh!!!!!

    Gosh. No I wasn't actually.
    Would do the job though!
    It would indeed.

    But I'm not relying on that to win the bet!
    How do you get a story onto the front print page of the Independent?

    Just asking the expert :smile: .
    Have a look here:

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/

    That's not a printed front page.

    The print edition of the Indy ceased in March 2016.
    https://news.sky.com/story/independent-newspaper-prints-final-edition-10218799
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,430
    Rishi, Boris and Ben Wallace will be scrabbling to take credit for reversing army cuts.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17864199/rishi-sunak-reverse-plans-slash-british-army/
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    On the bet what happens if the Queen dies?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,013
    edited March 2022
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Okay I'll take a wager with any one of you for just a tenner that Ukraine will not feature on the front print page of three of the following on a single day between now and the end of next month:

    The Sun
    The Daily Mail
    The Daily Telegraph
    The Times
    The Guardian
    The Independent
    The i
    The Daily Express

    Sloppy wording which makes that so definitely a losing bet for you that it would be cruel to take your money.
    Have the courage to bet with me on it then if you're so sure.

    Let's make the proceeds go to one of the Ukrainian charity appeals. Then it won't be such a cruelty for you.

    (The wording was designed to make clear that it has to be on the same day obviously and 3 of those print editions. Pretty clear and explanatory.)
    So if there's a single day where at least three of those papers have Ukraine mentioned anywhere on the front page between now and the end of April, I win?
    I am happy to take the bet for a tenner
    Morning Malc.

    How did your nags get on at the weekend ?
    Taz, not great , I had my EW single placed , trixie on both Saturday and Sunday were down. Racing was not that great and I did not have lot of time to spend looking at them but no excuse.
    Still merely a hobby and both my accounts have enough money to keep me going for a while.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,011

    Andy_JS said:

    Two encouraging articles.

    "Putin’s forces in Ukraine war are decimated, says UK defence chief"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putins-forces-in-ukraine-war-are-decimated-says-uk-defence-chief-x7khnbfzq

    "This war will be a total failure, FSB whistleblower says"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-war-will-be-a-total-failure-fsb-whistleblower-says-wl2gtdl9m
    "Spies in Russia’s infamous security apparatus were kept in the dark about President Putin’s plan to invade Ukraine, according to a whistleblower who described the war as a “total failure” that could be compared only to the collapse of Nazi Germany. A report thought to be by an analyst in the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, said that the Russian dead could already number 10,000. The Russian defence ministry has acknowledged the deaths of only 498 of its soldiers in Ukraine."

    As ever, IANAE.

    IMV the next week are key. There are vague signs that Russian forces are building up for an attack, possibly on Kiev. If that works, the war is essentially over. If it fails, Russia is in even deeper trouble.

    Can Kiev, and Ukraine, hold on for that week despite everything Russia throws at them? I hope so, but I doubt it... :(
    That's not quite true. Russia can probably hold Eastern Ukraine. But holding Eastern Ukraine (with all the troops required), while pushing 200 miles to the East with stretched supply lines and diminishing numbers of troops would be far from easy.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,013
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, with that retort to Mr Ian, I'm off out.

    Have a nice day everyone and try not to get too angry with one another!

    Enjoy your day. It’s a gorgeous spring day up here.
    We are on our 4th sunny day at least, it has been fresh but beautiful. What a difference it makes from wind and rain.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,454
    PB Brains Trust (and maybe particularly @Gallowgate ?)

    We're currently having an extension built, single storey, approx 22.5 sqm internal area. One wall mostly glass, aprox 4m wide (bifolds), two side walls and then open to kitchen in old part of house.
    We have to shortly choose between electric or hydronic underfloor heating. Difference in installation cost looks to be ~£2000 (electric cheaper) but the hydronic looks to have much cheaper running costs. The only direct comparisons I've found are on websites of companies selling hydronic systems, so clearly potential bias, but they put the difference in running costs for that kind of area at ~£400/year favouring hydronic, at 2019 prices. Now, at 2019 prices, our entire energy bill was under £900/year so I find that hard to believe, but still. Hydronic would, for now, be served from the CH boiler (2019 install, condensing combi) but could potentially come off an air source heat pump at a later point.

    Any thoughts? On running costs or other pros/cons? We have electric underfloor heating (under tiles) in an upstairs bathroom and tha works well, but you can tell exactly where the mat is and is not, not an issue as where it is not is areas not normally trodden on, but those areas remain cold to touch.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    James Cleverly seems to be attempting the tricky argument that it doesn’t matter who’s in the House of Lords because most of them don’t do anything. Very high level of difficulty
    https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/1500751979429216264
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder why the UK isn't handing over any Javelin - which is a much bigger stick than NLAW.

    I assume cost comes into it somewhere as Javelin rounds are very expensive and the MoD will have no fucking hope of being reimbursed for them.

    Weren't many of the NLAW we've sent approaching their "use by" date?
    Dunno, but they were bought in the mid noughties so probably.
    Scrapping each one on a bit of Russian kit gets my vote....
    There was a press report on the weekend - will have to dig it out, that a big chunk of the weapons deliveries to Ukraine were being coordinated - as in "who provides what", off a list based on what the Ukrainians have asked for.

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    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Two encouraging articles.

    "Putin’s forces in Ukraine war are decimated, says UK defence chief"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putins-forces-in-ukraine-war-are-decimated-says-uk-defence-chief-x7khnbfzq

    "This war will be a total failure, FSB whistleblower says"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-war-will-be-a-total-failure-fsb-whistleblower-says-wl2gtdl9m
    "Spies in Russia’s infamous security apparatus were kept in the dark about President Putin’s plan to invade Ukraine, according to a whistleblower who described the war as a “total failure” that could be compared only to the collapse of Nazi Germany. A report thought to be by an analyst in the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, said that the Russian dead could already number 10,000. The Russian defence ministry has acknowledged the deaths of only 498 of its soldiers in Ukraine."

    As ever, IANAE.

    IMV the next week are key. There are vague signs that Russian forces are building up for an attack, possibly on Kiev. If that works, the war is essentially over. If it fails, Russia is in even deeper trouble.

    Can Kiev, and Ukraine, hold on for that week despite everything Russia throws at them? I hope so, but I doubt it... :(
    That's not quite true. Russia can probably hold Eastern Ukraine. But holding Eastern Ukraine (with all the troops required), while pushing 200 miles to the East with stretched supply lines and diminishing numbers of troops would be far from easy.
    I think you mean West but I get your point.....which raises the question of what the hell Putin is trying to achieve. I just don't see a way out of this mess for him, or Russia.

    Sure it's a disaster for us all, but eventually for Russia above any other nation.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,454
    Dura_Ace said:

    biggles said:


    Even if we ignore the merits and the logic, how would he propose we create a yes/no question?

    REMAIN committed to Net Zero.

    LEAVE our commitment behind.

    Dom's got time on his hands. Maybe they are getting the band back together.
    I'd word it differently:

    LEAVE Putin up shit creek by cutting Western reliance on Russian gas and oil

    REMAIN under the thumb of Russia by maintaining Putin's power to turn the heating off

    also has the advantage that LEAVE is a proven winner :wink:
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    NEW: The Conservatives are scrambling to clamp down on Russian money, but they're starting at a disadvantage.

    Ex-aide to the party: “It's all very well saying that we’ve changed, but it's just ridiculous. It's too late.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-tories-russian-money-oligarch/
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    To put this in context: over 11,000 Ukrainian refugees arrived in Berlin on Saturday alone (no visa required for at least a year under rules revised by EU on Thursday).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60640460
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,811

    The Batman was awesome.

    Meh. Over long, desperate to br ths next Dark Knight. It was ok.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: The Conservatives are scrambling to clamp down on Russian money, but they're starting at a disadvantage.

    Ex-aide to the party: “It's all very well saying that we’ve changed, but it's just ridiculous. It's too late.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-tories-russian-money-oligarch/

    Transparency International has identified a number of weak points in the government's plan, including an 18-month lead-in time, inadequate penalties for those who break the rules, and the absence of an accurate record of who holds what assets.

    ...

    Others attribute the lack of action over the 2020 Russia report to, at least in part, what it had to say about Brexit. Dominic Grieve, former chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, said there was an "embarrassment" that the outcome might have been influenced by hostile actors, which fed into an unwillingness to look too closely at it.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    It did not, it picked it out for generating the most hysteria on the subject. A mouth vs trousers disparity.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,203
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, with that retort to Mr Ian, I'm off out.

    Have a nice day everyone and try not to get too angry with one another!

    Enjoy your day. It’s a gorgeous spring day up here.
    We are on our 4th sunny day at least, it has been fresh but beautiful. What a difference it makes from wind and rain.
    It’s looking like a lovely spring week this week. Icy first thing. Rural Durham is lovely.

    It gives you a lift when the weather is nice like this.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    The more I see this graph the more I marvel at just how stupid you would have to be to think it was something to boast about. There's a strong case for arguing that Eton should refund his school fees. https://twitter.com/Klobo15/status/1500753511478435840
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    Scott_xP said:

    James "Cleverly" seems to be attempting the tricky argument that it doesn’t matter who’s in the House of Lords because most of them don’t do anything. Very high level of difficulty
    https://twitter.com/janinegibson/status/1500751979429216264

    So basically "most of our appointees are completely useless, except as vice fodder in emergencies" ?

    Doesn't say much about his opinion of Tory appointments.

    Of course the HoL does important stuff, and some peers are of very high calibre.
    As an example, the HoL Foreign Affairs committee gave prescient warnings to ministers a year in advance of the Afghan debacle (which the Commons equivalent almost completely missed) ... and were completely ignored by this government.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: The Conservatives are scrambling to clamp down on Russian money, but they're starting at a disadvantage.

    Ex-aide to the party: “It's all very well saying that we’ve changed, but it's just ridiculous. It's too late.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-tories-russian-money-oligarch/

    Transparency International has identified a number of weak points in the government's plan, including an 18-month lead-in time, inadequate penalties for those who break the rules, and the absence of an accurate record of who holds what assets.

    ...

    Others attribute the lack of action over the 2020 Russia report to, at least in part, what it had to say about Brexit. Dominic Grieve, former chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, said there was an "embarrassment" that the outcome might have been influenced by hostile actors, which fed into an unwillingness to look too closely at it.
    "others" "attribute" "at least in part" - could you make a weaker case?

    And Dominic Grieve? lol..... No axe to grind there then.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
    So Moscow picked out a country that was doing the least on sanctions to say that they were doing the most.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
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    Heathener said:

    Okay I'll take a wager with any one of you for just a tenner that Ukraine will not feature on the front print page of three of the following on a single day between now and the end of next month:

    The Sun
    The Daily Mail
    The Daily Telegraph
    The Times
    The Guardian
    The Independent
    The i
    The Daily Express

    That is rather silly as something will command a days headlines but this war is going to dominate the media for months and years
    It won't, and for the simple reason that they will run out of new things to talk about. This is the scenario where the offensive bogs down into the mud and ends up as a protracted "battle" with occasional skirmishes but neither side making substantial progress.

    If that happens, it won't new news any more - the clue is in the "NEW" part of the word news. Other newer more shocking events and revelations will rank higher than retread reporting about Ukraine and gradually it recedes. Will still pop back up, we'll still get front pages, but they will be UK focused not Ukraine focused.

    We have already seen that. The Mail on Sunday front page was an internal UK politics "story", not war reporting.
    The Mail on Sunday front page was Boris 6 point plan to beat Putin

    I rather think you hope it will recede from news but that is as I have said earlier hope over expectation
    Yes. BORIS. That was the focus. Not the war, just how the Tories who are quoted as being "delighted" by the war are using it to boost the Big Dog.

    Whilst I accept that my Journalism Degree and experience working as a journalist is a little while ago, I am not making up how the industry works.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: The Conservatives are scrambling to clamp down on Russian money, but they're starting at a disadvantage.

    Ex-aide to the party: “It's all very well saying that we’ve changed, but it's just ridiculous. It's too late.”

    https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-tories-russian-money-oligarch/

    Transparency International has identified a number of weak points in the government's plan, including an 18-month lead-in time, inadequate penalties for those who break the rules, and the absence of an accurate record of who holds what assets.

    ...

    Others attribute the lack of action over the 2020 Russia report to, at least in part, what it had to say about Brexit. Dominic Grieve, former chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, said there was an "embarrassment" that the outcome might have been influenced by hostile actors, which fed into an unwillingness to look too closely at it.
    "others" "attribute" "at least in part" - could you make a weaker case?

    And Dominic Grieve? lol..... No axe to grind there then.
    On that basis you would immediately discount anything ever said by any member of the government.

    The proposition that the Russia Report has been buried, in part at least because of concerns about what it might dig up about the Brexit Referendum, is entirely credible.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    Gas: up 74%
    20 times its previous trend level https://twitter.com/BBCDouglasF/status/1500754883737174018/photo/1
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,708
    Scott_xP said:

    Gas: up 74%
    20 times its previous trend level https://twitter.com/BBCDouglasF/status/1500754883737174018/photo/1

    Difficult times for Germany in particular.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,708
    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    Just found out this guy owns the Independent, Evening Standard and London Live.
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,259
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    He also told me that men aren't allowed to leave Ukraine - which I wasn't aware of though it has been reported. Clearly some men are managing to leave anyway. I know people who have driven vans to the Ukraine-Poland border dropped off medical supplies and picked people up not exclusively women and children, though mostly. No problems bringing them back to Germany.

    Germany is probably a country that is being one of the worst directly hit by the sanctions so far (eg 2021 exports to Russia about 6 times UK exports to Russia, similarly levels of FDI), though everywhere is going to feel it. It does feel a bit off to have some of the very same posters full of righteous indignation about Germany delaying throwing Russia out of Swift, being so very understanding about the "difficulty" of Britain quickly imposing sanctions on Russian oligarchs (their argument boils down to - the UK can't afford to because it would damage London's reputation as a place where foreign dictators and kleptocrats can stash their cash safely)
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,009

    Rishi, Boris and Ben Wallace will be scrabbling to take credit for reversing army cuts.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17864199/rishi-sunak-reverse-plans-slash-british-army/

    Once more time, it bears stating that the money isn't the problem. Well, not the biggest problem anyway.

    The British Army is absolutely riven by a bitter factional fight between the innovators and the traditionalists. The innovators finally gained the upper hand in about 2014 and completely upended all of the priorities by putting Mechanized Infantry ahead of Artillery and Heavy Armour - the opposite of the previously identified traditionalist procurement schedule. Ajax just managed to squeak through before the innovators could kill it. Now even though the fact that is fucked is just about the only thing everybody agrees one nobody wants to cancel because they know they won't get any more money. If they let it limp on there's always a chance the Treasury will have to bail it and General Dynamics out.

    Until that conflict is resolved and one faction or the other decisively triumphs everything, from equipment procurement to force structures, is an ill-fitting compromise.

    Giving them more money probably makes the problem worse at this point, TBH.

    The French Army went through the same painful internal struggle about 10 years and their innovators had a decisive victory and implemented the 'Scorpion' program.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229
    ...
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gas: up 74%
    20 times its previous trend level https://twitter.com/BBCDouglasF/status/1500754883737174018/photo/1

    Difficult times for Germany in particular.
    Sod Germany, difficult times for me!
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
    So Moscow picked out a country that was doing the least on sanctions to say that they were doing the most.
    To say that they were SAYING the most. Tiniest hint of a difference?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    Ukraine is remarkably open about their own casualties, including what must be highly consequential losses of pilots.
    Reports like this are a regular feature.

    They believed in Freedom and the right to live and work in their God-given land.
    Remember they laid down their lives not only for #Ukraine, but for all of Europe!
    RIP - Pilot Oleksand Oksancheko, Hero of Ukraine Major Stepan Choban, Stanislav Kovtun

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1500746455023337472
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,029
    Andy_JS said:

    Just found out this guy owns the Independent, Evening Standard and London Live.

    As noted elsewhere, the fact the guy "hasn't voted and therefore has no influence on our politics" is a crap line
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    Gas: up 74%
    20 times its previous trend level https://twitter.com/BBCDouglasF/status/1500754883737174018/photo/1

    The nature of our society is that many people don't care about things that don't directly affect them. They don't really care about the news unless it is sport or entertainment. Ukraine still won't have resonated much. Nor has the arguments about forthcoming tax rises.

    What slams them now is the exploding price of road and heating fuels, gas, food and soon everything. And then there is supposedly a whopping tax rise to fund the NHS getting worse before it gets better.

    Piers Morgan is one of many "i'm dead influential me" commentators demanding airstrikes and no fly zones. I don't think most normals want that - they don't want Russian airstrikes on Dudley as retaliation, and they don't want the war to completely bugger their ability to drive their car, heat their house etc.

    So in answer to the question as to what the Nigel thinks he will do next and his reaction against "Net Zero 2050" I think there is a sizeable audience. Anti-war, anti-price rises, anti-woke crap (which includes green crap).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    So much for the humanitarian corrirors.

    Ukraine decries 'immoral' stunt after Moscow says it will let civilians flee - to Russia
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/top-wrap-1-ukrainians-trapped-besieged-city-fighting-blocks-evacuation-efforts-2022-03-07/
  • Options
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    Just found out this guy owns the Independent, Evening Standard and London Live.
    And his money is his daddy's money. The KGB guy that the Big Dog skipped his immediate post-Skripal attack security briefings to see as a friend.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
    Which worked as well as with China. Perhaps there is a lesson in diversification there.

    What if we shifted 1/3rd of of buying cheap crap to South America, 1/3rd to India and 1/3rd to Africa? That would put the shits up the Xi 1000% more than 10 new aircraft carriers.

    It would also do for South America, India and Africa what the money previously did for China - give them the ability to pull themselves up to the next level in development.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    At a guess that's probably why the bombing of civilians has gone right up. RU is desperate. Sickening.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265
    Nigelb said:

    So much for the humanitarian corrirors.

    Ukraine decries 'immoral' stunt after Moscow says it will let civilians flee - to Russia
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/top-wrap-1-ukrainians-trapped-besieged-city-fighting-blocks-evacuation-efforts-2022-03-07/

    This way to gulag.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just found out this guy owns the Independent, Evening Standard and London Live.

    As noted elsewhere, the fact the guy "hasn't voted and therefore has no influence on our politics" is a crap line
    Is this the same person who used the Evening Standard to launch an attack on Putin last week
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265

    Scott_xP said:

    Gas: up 74%
    20 times its previous trend level https://twitter.com/BBCDouglasF/status/1500754883737174018/photo/1

    The nature of our society is that many people don't care about things that don't directly affect them. They don't really care about the news unless it is sport or entertainment. Ukraine still won't have resonated much. Nor has the arguments about forthcoming tax rises.

    What slams them now is the exploding price of road and heating fuels, gas, food and soon everything. And then there is supposedly a whopping tax rise to fund the NHS getting worse before it gets better.

    Piers Morgan is one of many "i'm dead influential me" commentators demanding airstrikes and no fly zones. I don't think most normals want that - they don't want Russian airstrikes on Dudley as retaliation, and they don't want the war to completely bugger their ability to drive their car, heat their house etc.

    So in answer to the question as to what the Nigel thinks he will do next and his reaction against "Net Zero 2050" I think there is a sizeable audience. Anti-war, anti-price rises, anti-woke crap (which includes green crap).
    Let's hope Biden doesn't pay any attention to the likes of Piers Morgan. If he has even heard of him.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
    Which worked as well as with China. Perhaps there is a lesson in diversification there.

    What if we shifted 1/3rd of of buying cheap crap to South America, 1/3rd to India and 1/3rd to Africa? That would put the shits up the Xi 1000% more than 10 new aircraft carriers.

    It would also do for South America, India and Africa what the money previously did for China - give them the ability to pull themselves up to the next level in development.
    I.e. get their own industrial revolutions with all the concrete, steel and energy consumption that entails, with all the AGW consequences you'd expect. We are sooo buggered.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    Certainly the current situation has secured Boris' position for the time being as he becomes a national leader in time of crisis. Even Starmer agreed Boris was safe for the short term yesterday.

    The situation has also boosted the profile and chances of the defence secretary Ben Wallace at the expense of Sunak and Truss. Wallace also led the latest ConHome Cabinet favourable rating
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,009
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    Let's be real here: actual documented Russian aircraft losses are 10 fixed wing and 11 rotary wing.

    That's not nothing, particularly the loss of the crews, but it's still not a significant loss for the VVS.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
    Even if that proved not to be the case, it doesn't mean the policy was wrong.
    How much worse a situation might we be in were Russia's economy tightly integrated with that of China ?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    At a guess that's probably why the bombing of civilians has gone right up. RU is desperate. Sickening.
    Sadly yes. They needed a quick war, but instead are bogged down (sometimes quite literally!), struggling with supply lines and don’t have air superiority.

    The longer the conflict continues, the more desparate the Russians get - hence the suggestion they might bomb the power station, which is as good as a nuclear attack to the rest of the world.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Pebble_Island and Robert Mayne's actions...

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited March 2022

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
    Official Secrets Act be damned, we'd know by now if he had!

    "The First Brigade, Artisan Flint Knappers, struck a decisive blow today....!"
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,170
    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,206
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Okay I'll take a wager with any one of you for just a tenner that Ukraine will not feature on the front print page of three of the following on a single day between now and the end of next month:

    The Sun
    The Daily Mail
    The Daily Telegraph
    The Times
    The Guardian
    The Independent
    The i
    The Daily Express

    You going for London Bridge, huh?
    ? Don't understand.

    I'm sure it's a clever comment but to someone who you don't have marked for intelligence you might have to stoop to explain.
    London bridge is the code for the queen dying. I imagine that would take the front pages
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    and of course, the Taliban achieved a similar feat against the RAF- guarded airfield at Camp Bastion in 2012 destroying 8 Harriers, I remember it being reported as one of the biggest aircraft losses by the US in a single action since the raids over Vietnam
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,229

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
    So Moscow picked out a country that was doing the least on sanctions to say that they were doing the most.
    Quite probably, yes. But enjoy Boris Johnson's six point plan anyway. He's rallying the hitherto slackers of Europe and North America into action.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Dura_Ace said:

    Rishi, Boris and Ben Wallace will be scrabbling to take credit for reversing army cuts.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17864199/rishi-sunak-reverse-plans-slash-british-army/

    Once more time, it bears stating that the money isn't the problem. Well, not the biggest problem anyway.

    The British Army is absolutely riven by a bitter factional fight between the innovators and the traditionalists. The innovators finally gained the upper hand in about 2014 and completely upended all of the priorities by putting Mechanized Infantry ahead of Artillery and Heavy Armour - the opposite of the previously identified traditionalist procurement schedule. Ajax just managed to squeak through before the innovators could kill it. Now even though the fact that is fucked is just about the only thing everybody agrees one nobody wants to cancel because they know they won't get any more money. If they let it limp on there's always a chance the Treasury will have to bail it and General Dynamics out.

    Until that conflict is resolved and one faction or the other decisively triumphs everything, from equipment procurement to force structures, is an ill-fitting compromise.

    Giving them more money probably makes the problem worse at this point, TBH.

    The French Army went through the same painful internal struggle about 10 years and their innovators had a decisive victory and implemented the 'Scorpion' program.
    Lloyd George's war memoirs are full of it. In the Index, you get entries like "Military Mind: narrowness of, regards thinking as a form of mutiny."
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    Let's be real here: actual documented Russian aircraft losses are 10 fixed wing and 11 rotary wing.

    That's not nothing, particularly the loss of the crews, but it's still not a significant loss for the VVS.
    Where are you finding actual numbers? So far I have seen the claims from Russia about their losses, the claims from Ukraine and some claims from various third parties, stating that that they are compiling tail numbers...
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,259

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
    So Moscow picked out a country that was doing the least on sanctions to say that they were doing the most.
    There's 2 points to what Moscow says:
    First, it will say anything to try and divide Europe, so an element of trolling.
    Secondly, maybe Britain is a country that potentially could still impose some pretty painful sanctions on Putin and his mates but hasn't done so yet, and the propaganda is aimed at preventing this as far as possible.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,265
    Bootle arguing that defence spend must go up to 4% at least after all this. I agree. If not higher imho. He says this must not come from increase in tax but from rebalancing existing public spend. Harder to do than sounds imho. I think some kind of wealth tax would be better. After all, what use is the millions in your property wealth if the country is being razed to the ground by Russians?

    A tax that especially hit rich Russians owning empty flats in London would be excellent.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/06/dont-need-tax-hikes-fund-army-make-cuts-elsewhere/
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    Just found out this guy owns the Independent, Evening Standard and London Live.
    And a pub with Sir Ian McKellen.
    http://www.thegrapes.co.uk/history.php
    Pretty well integrated into British life - he's lived here since he was 8 - he could be entirely above board.

    But his dad was a KGB First Directorate officer.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,170
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Daily Mail this morning shows just how far the UK has fallen behind the EU and US in sanctioning Russian oligarchs https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1500751320457822212/photo/1

    Whay did Moscow pick out the UK two days ago for having the strongest sanctions?
    Let's face it your source is not the most reliable. "Our 180,000 troops in Ukraine are simply engaged in peacekeeping duties".
    So Moscow picked out a country that was doing the least on sanctions to say that they were doing the most.
    To say that they were SAYING the most. Tiniest hint of a difference?
    I also assume that the Rooshians still retain enough smarts to see that the UK is the black sheep that it’s worth trying to peel off from the herd, or at least encourage it to indulge in a lot of exceptionalist baahing.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    Let's be real here: actual documented Russian aircraft losses are 10 fixed wing and 11 rotary wing.

    That's not nothing, particularly the loss of the crews, but it's still not a significant loss for the VVS.
    Where are you finding actual numbers? So far I have seen the claims from Russia about their losses, the claims from Ukraine and some claims from various third parties, stating that that they are compiling tail numbers...
    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    The Lords has been like that for about the last seven hundred years.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,009

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    and of course, the Taliban achieved a similar feat against the RAF- guarded airfield at Camp Bastion in 2012 destroying 8 Harriers, I remember it being reported as one of the biggest aircraft losses by the US in a single action since the raids over Vietnam
    The RAF Regiment's finest hour! There was a spate of brassing up their own body armour immediately after the attack in the hunt for medals.
  • Options
    NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140

    Bootle arguing that defence spend must go up to 4% at least after all this. I agree. If not higher imho. He says this must not come from increase in tax but from rebalancing existing public spend. Harder to do than sounds imho. I think some kind of wealth tax would be better. After all, what use is the millions in your property wealth if the country is being razed to the ground by Russians?

    A tax that especially hit rich Russians owning empty flats in London would be excellent.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/06/dont-need-tax-hikes-fund-army-make-cuts-elsewhere/

    I lose track of the number of problems ‘some kind of wealth tax’ will magically solve. Paying for an ongoing 4% in defence spending wouldn’t be one of them…
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
    I think you've been taken in by the phrase "taken in".
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
    Which worked as well as with China. Perhaps there is a lesson in diversification there.

    What if we shifted 1/3rd of of buying cheap crap to South America, 1/3rd to India and 1/3rd to Africa? That would put the shits up the Xi 1000% more than 10 new aircraft carriers.

    It would also do for South America, India and Africa what the money previously did for China - give them the ability to pull themselves up to the next level in development.
    We might usefully give greater priority to manufacturing in the UK.
    In that respect we matter considerably less than (for example) either South Korea or Taiwan.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,170

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
    The Artists Rifles (dress uniform includes gaylord ponceyboots) is now an SAS reserve regiment. Just sayin’..
  • Options
    Applicant said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
    I think you've been taken in by the phrase "taken in".
    Right. That some of you are still defending our "refugees go away" policy - is astonishing. And it is literally "go away" - people being turned away by Border Force and told to go fill out a form back in Paris.
  • Options
    Northstar said:

    Bootle arguing that defence spend must go up to 4% at least after all this. I agree. If not higher imho. He says this must not come from increase in tax but from rebalancing existing public spend. Harder to do than sounds imho. I think some kind of wealth tax would be better. After all, what use is the millions in your property wealth if the country is being razed to the ground by Russians?

    A tax that especially hit rich Russians owning empty flats in London would be excellent.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/06/dont-need-tax-hikes-fund-army-make-cuts-elsewhere/

    I lose track of the number of problems ‘some kind of wealth tax’ will magically solve. Paying for an ongoing 4% in defence spending wouldn’t be one of them…
    It is one of the reasons that whoever wins GE24 will be facing an economic wasteland and have little scope for implementing their manifesto promises
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    Only 4 drones seems exceptionally low, unless Russia aren't using much in the way of drones in order to lose them?

    Which given that much of their equipment seems to be Soviet era hand-me-downs that seems entirely possible?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    The Lords has been like that for about the last seven hundred years.
    Gilbert and Sullivan (Gilbert, really) have got most of the Lebedev angles covered

    When Britain really ruled the waves--
    (In good Queen Bess's time)
    The House of Peers made no pretence
    To intellectual eminence,
    Or scholarship sublime;
    Yet Britain won her proudest bays
    In good Queen Bess's glorious days!
    CHORUS
    Yes, Britain won, etc.
    LORD M.
    When Wellington thrashed Bonaparte,
    As every child can tell,
    The House of Peers, throughout the war,
    Did nothing in particular,
    And did it very well:
    Yet Britain set the world ablaze
    In good King George's glorious days!
    CHORUS
    Yes, Britain set, etc.
    LORD M.
    And while the House of Peers withholds
    Its legislative hand,
    And noble statesmen do not itch
    To interfere with matters which
    They do not understand,
    As bright will shine Great Britain's rays
    As in King George's glorious days!

    And

    He is an Englishman!
    For he himself has said it,
    And it's greatly to his credit,
    That he is an Englishman!
    ALL.
    That he is an Englishman!
    BOAT.
    For he might have been a Roosian,
    A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
    Or perhaps Itali-an!
    ALL.
    Or perhaps Itali-an!
    BOAT.
    But in spite of all temptations
    To belong to other nations,
    He remains an Englishman!
    He remains an Englishman!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,663
    edited March 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    Let's be real here: actual documented Russian aircraft losses are 10 fixed wing and 11 rotary wing.

    That's not nothing, particularly the loss of the crews, but it's still not a significant loss for the VVS.
    Really ?
    The figure seems to have been ten back in February (or is this page regularly updated ... edit, yes it seems to be) ?
    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,992
    Utterly offtopic and supposedly connected to higher education only but in reality this will be true of a lot of things


    Glen O'Hara
    @gsoh31
    ·
    1m
    Just a tiny footnote in the grand scheme of things, but the only way England's university funding system could possibly work was in a world of low inflation. I'll just leave that there.

    Solutions that work in a low inflation world instantly fall apart when inflation returns.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
    The Artists Rifles (dress uniform includes gaylord ponceyboots) is now an SAS reserve regiment. Just sayin’..
    Was it them or the HAC which according to Evelyn Waugh was known as the Monstrous Regiment of Gentlemen?
  • Options
    NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 140

    Northstar said:

    Bootle arguing that defence spend must go up to 4% at least after all this. I agree. If not higher imho. He says this must not come from increase in tax but from rebalancing existing public spend. Harder to do than sounds imho. I think some kind of wealth tax would be better. After all, what use is the millions in your property wealth if the country is being razed to the ground by Russians?

    A tax that especially hit rich Russians owning empty flats in London would be excellent.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/06/dont-need-tax-hikes-fund-army-make-cuts-elsewhere/

    I lose track of the number of problems ‘some kind of wealth tax’ will magically solve. Paying for an ongoing 4% in defence spending wouldn’t be one of them…
    It is one of the reasons that whoever wins GE24 will be facing an economic wasteland and have little scope for implementing their manifesto promises
    I’m not quite that pessimistic, but if ever there was a time for a meaningful, long-term, thoroughgoing reform of tax policy and at the same time a hard-eyed look at what can be afforded under whatever tax policy is adopted, it would be now.

    Unlikely to happen, to say the least…
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,170
    Applicant said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
    I think you've been taken in by the phrase "taken in".
    Great to hear from someone with no agenda, utterly resistant to being taken in and only interested in hard, verifiable facts.

    How many visas did the UK issue over the weekend?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    That number available for fighting in Ukraine doesn't take account of those Russian planes stationed in Syria. (Always assuming they are still there.)

    If backed up, the loss of 30 choppers in one action would at least mean that is 30 Stingers saved for a rainy day. Dura is taking his info from sites that require photographic evidence of losses. At the start of the invasion, there were reports of two Russian transport planes being downed. I'm not aware of any images of the crash sites being posted, but the CIA has confirmed that at least one of them was downed.

    Much fog of war, but the only certainty is that Russia will never admit to but a tiny fraction of its losses - and there are plenty of Russian-supporting sites that seek to rubbish the Ukrainian claims. If I had to trust one source over the other for information, it would be Ukraine, not Russia.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    Only 4 drones seems exceptionally low, unless Russia aren't using much in the way of drones in order to lose them?

    Which given that much of their equipment seems to be Soviet era hand-me-downs that seems entirely possible?
    Don’t think the Russians have a lot of drones in Ukraine, although it may soon be all they have left if planes and pilots keep getting shot down at the current rate.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Talking to a friend yesterday who has a Mittelstand business with subsidiaries in Russia and Ukraine. He just managed to get his Ukraine employees' families out of Ukraine (others wanted to stay and fight), he now has two families in his spare rooms. He said one of the children started crying when she heard the garbage truck because she thought it might be a tank. Of course he's writing off losses, and doesn't know if he can pay his Russian employees because of sanctions. He had thought he was doing the right thing investing in Russia, he didn't think he was supporting Putin - he believed the engagement would undermine Putin.

    He is quite pessimistic about the possibility of the war expanding - he thinks it is quite likely. And doesn't trust the US to a) care if a big war happens in Europe or b) actually really fight if one happens. These views are quite common. Accelerating German rearmament (not a phrase with happy connotations!) I think is very likely from now on.

    He asked me when Britain would freeze all the Russian money in London (as if I would know!), because "that would help".

    Well your friend is not entirely wrong about why he invested in Russia.
    Sanctions would be massively less effective if the Russian economy were not heavily integrated into the western economy - and it's certain that they would in that case have much closer economic ties with China. For oil production, manufacturing and finance, the reliance on the west is very great.

    A much closer alliance with China seems quite likely in the future - how else will the Russian economy rebuild after this ? But it will take some years.
    iirc it was a general view across a lot of EU that engagement with RU, trade and cultural exchange and travel and so on would help 'soften' the Russians towards a more open, democratic mindset in long run.
    Which worked as well as with China. Perhaps there is a lesson in diversification there.

    What if we shifted 1/3rd of of buying cheap crap to South America, 1/3rd to India and 1/3rd to Africa? That would put the shits up the Xi 1000% more than 10 new aircraft carriers.

    It would also do for South America, India and Africa what the money previously did for China - give them the ability to pull themselves up to the next level in development.
    We might usefully give greater priority to manufacturing in the UK.
    In that respect we matter considerably less than (for example) either South Korea or Taiwan.
    Steady on, suggesting on shore manufacturing might cause people to explode - very gammon idea.
  • Options
    Northstar said:

    Northstar said:

    Bootle arguing that defence spend must go up to 4% at least after all this. I agree. If not higher imho. He says this must not come from increase in tax but from rebalancing existing public spend. Harder to do than sounds imho. I think some kind of wealth tax would be better. After all, what use is the millions in your property wealth if the country is being razed to the ground by Russians?

    A tax that especially hit rich Russians owning empty flats in London would be excellent.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/06/dont-need-tax-hikes-fund-army-make-cuts-elsewhere/

    I lose track of the number of problems ‘some kind of wealth tax’ will magically solve. Paying for an ongoing 4% in defence spending wouldn’t be one of them…
    It is one of the reasons that whoever wins GE24 will be facing an economic wasteland and have little scope for implementing their manifesto promises
    I’m not quite that pessimistic, but if ever there was a time for a meaningful, long-term, thoroughgoing reform of tax policy and at the same time a hard-eyed look at what can be afforded under whatever tax policy is adopted, it would be now.

    Unlikely to happen, to say the least…
    I agree but as you say other issues will dominate
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
    Official Secrets Act be damned, we'd know by now if he had!

    "The First Brigade, Artisan Flint Knappers, struck a decisive blow today....!"
    But think of the force multiplier effect! One person, so many identities! And if he was ever captured, he'd keep a battalion of interrogators busy.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,708
    edited March 2022

    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    Only 4 drones seems exceptionally low, unless Russia aren't using much in the way of drones in order to lose them?

    Which given that much of their equipment seems to be Soviet era hand-me-downs that seems entirely possible?
    Interesting. Maybe drones are too much of a 21st century invention for the Russian military to have taken an interest in, as you say.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    I think 110,000 Russian troops might be something of an over-estimate! Unless Mega-convoy really is a PoW camp in all but name.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,451

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    Hell of a result if true.

    I wonder if their marines are well acquainted with Hereford?
    Leon led the assault?
    Official Secrets Act be damned, we'd know by now if he had!

    "The First Brigade, Artisan Flint Knappers, struck a decisive blow today....!"
    But think of the force multiplier effect! One person, so many identities! And if he was ever captured, he'd keep a battalion of interrogators busy.
    The economy value of delivering one person by helicopter who could then do the work of 100Ks of Albanian Taxi drivers......
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
    I think you've been taken in by the phrase "taken in".
    Right. That some of you are still defending our "refugees go away" policy - is astonishing. And it is literally "go away" - people being turned away by Border Force and told to go fill out a form back in Paris.
    I am literally doing no such thing.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian military has stated that its marines conducted a surprise attack on the Chernobayevka airfield outside Kherson overnight destroying 30 Russian helicopters.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1500751140329246722

    LOL.

    In rough numbers, the Russian Air Force is losing 1% of its aircraft *per day* in this conflict - assuming that they have what they say they have in total, and they’re all serviceable, which is not going to be close.

    Give it another month, and half their Air Force will have been shot down in Ukraine. Do they have a WWII-style factory, churning out new ones somewhere, because if not…
    That number available for fighting in Ukraine doesn't take account of those Russian planes stationed in Syria. (Always assuming they are still there.)

    If backed up, the loss of 30 choppers in one action would at least mean that is 30 Stingers saved for a rainy day. Dura is taking his info from sites that require photographic evidence of losses. At the start of the invasion, there were reports of two Russian transport planes being downed. I'm not aware of any images of the crash sites being posted, but the CIA has confirmed that at least one of them was downed.

    Much fog of war, but the only certainty is that Russia will never admit to but a tiny fraction of its losses - and there are plenty of Russian-supporting sites that seek to rubbish the Ukrainian claims. If I had to trust one source over the other for information, it would be Ukraine, not Russia.
    The two IL-76 transporters remain a real mystery. I’ve still not seen any photos of them, but as you say the Amercians have confirmed the loss of at least one. They’re bloody big planes to have just disappeared!
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,992

    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    I think 110,000 Russian troops might be something of an over-estimate! Unless Mega-convoy really is a PoW camp in all but name.
    It's 11,000+ you've added a zero.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Poland has taken in over 900,000 Ukrainian refugees. The Home Office has issued 50 visas. It’s almost impossible to believe, until you remember Priti Patel is Home Secretary and Boris Johnson is Prime Minister.
    https://twitter.com/MatthewStadlen/status/1500727972763996176

    A government being outshone on moral leadership by the Polish one is some achievement.
    I think you've been taken in by the phrase "taken in".
    Great to hear from someone with no agenda, utterly resistant to being taken in and only interested in hard, verifiable facts.

    How many visas did the UK issue over the weekend?
    Utterly irrelevant to my point.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    Ukraine’s figures for Russian losses.

    Pinch of salt, obviously, but the Americans have suggested that the numbers are not far off.

    I think 110,000 Russian troops might be something of an over-estimate! Unless Mega-convoy really is a PoW camp in all but name.
    Was 110,000 what the BBC said? Because the Ukranians are only claiming 11,000. ;)
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    So the argument is "its alright to put questionable people in the House of Lords provided they don't bother to do their job properly"? https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1500752692360142853

    The Lords has been like that for about the last seven hundred years.
    Gilbert and Sullivan (Gilbert, really) have got most of the Lebedev angles covered

    Indeed! G&S are the one thing even more timeless than Yes, Minister.

    While George Orwell on nationalism regularly gets quoted here regarding negative nationalists, G&S got there first in The Mikado as one entry always deserving to go on 'the list':

    Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone
    All centuries but this, and every country but his own;


    [Although that particular song is rewritten every time to include topical references so I'm not sure if that lyric is actually original or not, but its been kept in every version of the song I've heard so I'm guessing so?]
This discussion has been closed.