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Punters give LAB a 94% chance of winning Erdington by-election – politicalbetting.com

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,897

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russiain response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    In a joint letter, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, and Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, called on ministers to address Russian finance flowing into the UK.

    Writing to their counterparts, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, both possible contenders to succeed Boris Johnson in No 10, Lammy and Reeves said: “Donors who have made money from Russia or have alleged links to the Putin regime have given £1.93m to either the Conservative party or individual Conservative associations since Boris Johnson took power in July 2019. Will the Conservative party agree to return it?”


    Wow 1.93m in three years that's about 700k per year or about 2k per Conservative MP.

    Can I ask Conservative members here if they're not embarrassed that their party can be bought for such trivial amounts of money ?

    Are Conservative politicians so addicted to unearned money that they're willing to damage themselves so much for so little ?

    Its the political funding equivalent of a beggar looking for fag ends in the gutter.

    Are they all bad eggs, or is having any links to Russia enough to get you on the naughty list these days?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,676
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    I had a terrible thought earlier.

    In Washington they must be at least game planning the ultimate: a first strike to take this madman out before he burns the world to hell.

    I read somewhere that Putin is now in some deep bunker under the Urals, presumably for just this reason. Would explain his latest meetings by Zoom

    It may be bollocks of course. Perhaps he confidently strides the Kremlin? But he can’t be that confident, he will know assassination is a real threat
    And it will be the ultra loyal bodyguard who lost his son and brothers in to Ukrainian weapons that will give Putin his "et tu, Brute" moment.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Nigelb said:

    Shoutout for the Polish ambassador - the only one to stick around.

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1499474258283614213
    Polish Ambassador Bartosz Cichocki sat in a 2nd-floor room lined with large windows, wearing a soccer jersey and sipping a glass scotch, full of bravado, and shrugging off the missile explosions that reverberated through the Ukrainian capital.

    I do wonder how many Poles might be heading to the Ukraine in upcoming weeks.

    Those 'Poland: First To Fight' T-shirts were pretty popular a few years back:

    https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Poland-First-to-Fight-by-IKET/34071249.FB110
    https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/WWII-Poland-First-to-Fight-by-historicimage/31980559.NL9AC
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,934
    NEW: Based on "information available", the command of a unit of Belarusian paratroopers has received an order to cross the border into Ukraine, according to a Ukrainian update on Russia’s invasion. A combat order would be made after the crossing, it said, without giving dates 1/

    The update also described the morale of the Belarusian soldiers from the 38th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade as “extremely low”, noting: “The officers and soldiers do not want to play the role of Russian mercenaries.” 2/


    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1499490803101667341
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,931
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    I had a terrible thought earlier.

    In Washington they must be at least game planning the ultimate: a first strike to take this madman out before he burns the world to hell.

    I read somewhere that Putin is now in some deep bunker under the Urals, presumably for just this reason. Would explain his latest meetings by Zoom

    It may be bollocks of course. Perhaps he confidently strides the Kremlin? But he can’t be that confident, he will know assassination is a real threat
    And it will be the ultra loyal bodyguard who lost his son and brothers in to Ukrainian weapons that will give Putin his "et tu, Brute" moment.
    Have you read the end of Red Storm Rising?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,800

    Can't see Russia giving up Crimea even if Putin is deposed.
    As for the Erdington by-election, as poor a candidate as Paulette Hamilton is I'd be astonished if Labour didn't win reasonably comfortable tonight, let alone lose the seat.

    It was re-taken by force. You're assuming the Russians will be in a position to negotiate. Not saying we could get it but don't think we should take the maximalist position off the table. To me Crimea is a much higher priority than for instance removing Russia's Permanent 5 status which I'd be prepared to negotiate away.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Oh, and the overthrow of Khrushchev was a palace coup / revolution.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Based on "information available", the command of a unit of Belarusian paratroopers has received an order to cross the border into Ukraine, according to a Ukrainian update on Russia’s invasion. A combat order would be made after the crossing, it said, without giving dates 1/

    The update also described the morale of the Belarusian soldiers from the 38th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade as “extremely low”, noting: “The officers and soldiers do not want to play the role of Russian mercenaries.” 2/


    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1499490803101667341

    Russian mercenaries are paid better.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    Leon said:

    Still, not to worry, the Third Horseman approaches. Famine


    ⚡️Economist says Russian invasion could lead to largest wheat shortage in history.

    The invasion will cause a massive supply shock and nothing can be done in the short term to prevent it, according to @ScottIrwinUI, as quoted by Bloomberg.’

    https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1499468025036169216?s=21

    Have you ever gone three months without predicting the end of the world? Perhaps you could found Apocalypse Anonymous.
    It's a return to historical ways, people were often thinking they were living in the end times.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Probably more than one.
    Picky and wrong

    "a person or group of people employed to escort and protect an important or famous person."
    I know, it was a joke. Quite a funny one I think - I liked the thought of him only having one extremely loyal bodyguard. Only takes boxing day off to see his Mum.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    Scott_xP said:

    Exc: Ukraine war has curbed PM's ability to trigger Article 16 before Stormont elections in May, Govt sources tell @Telegraph.

    Johnson is now “unlikely” to deploy the safeguard mechanism this side of the ballot

    1/3

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/03/brexit-back-burner-ukraine-war-hits-boris-johnsons-ability-trigger/

    Every cloud... (except mushroom clouds, obvs)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,826

    Leon said:

    Still, not to worry, the Third Horseman approaches. Famine


    ⚡️Economist says Russian invasion could lead to largest wheat shortage in history.

    The invasion will cause a massive supply shock and nothing can be done in the short term to prevent it, according to @ScottIrwinUI, as quoted by Bloomberg.’

    https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1499468025036169216?s=21

    Have you ever gone three months without predicting the end of the world? Perhaps you could found Apocalypse Anonymous.
    Apocalypse Now and Again.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,690
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Does he have his own poison tasters like the Czars of old?

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Does he have his own poison tasters like the Czars of old?

    The extremely loyal bodyguard has to do that too - they're short-staffed.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited March 2022

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russiain response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    In a joint letter, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, and Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, called on ministers to address Russian finance flowing into the UK.

    Writing to their counterparts, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, both possible contenders to succeed Boris Johnson in No 10, Lammy and Reeves said: “Donors who have made money from Russia or have alleged links to the Putin regime have given £1.93m to either the Conservative party or individual Conservative associations since Boris Johnson took power in July 2019. Will the Conservative party agree to return it?”


    Wow 1.93m in three years that's about 700k per year or about 2k per Conservative MP.

    Can I ask Conservative members here if they're not embarrassed that their party can be bought for such trivial amounts of money ?

    Are Conservative politicians so addicted to unearned money that they're willing to damage themselves so much for so little ?

    Its the political funding equivalent of a beggar looking for fag ends in the gutter.

    This is a really rich attack line for Labour. It ties in nicely with the sleaze lines which have been pushed quite successfully over the last 12 months or so. And now, we have a juicy dimension of the Tories wallowing in sleaze which puts them on the wrong side of the most polarising conflict of the last 50 years or so.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Does he have his own poison tasters like the Czars of old?

    The extremely loyal bodyguard has to do that too - they're short-staffed.
    Why - have they lost a few people to, er... stomach upsets, recently?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/open-door-die-africans-report-racism-hostility-trying-flee-ukraine-rcna17953

    Alexander Somto Orah, 25, was among thousands of people crowding a Kyiv train station Friday, hoping to flee Ukraine amid the Russian invasion. He said he and his friends hoped to get to safety at the Polish border quickly but that officials wouldn’t allow the group of Africans to board trains out of the region.

    “I was like, ‘You are picking only white people!’” Orah said. He said he and his friends briefly made it onto a second train headed to Poland but were quickly kicked off, with officials telling them “Ukrainians only.”


    Mind you, those men will be lucky to get out of Ukraine. Zelensky wants them to stay and fight.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
  • kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.
    Nor do ones who succeed, generally.
    Genuinely successful assassins (rather than simply assassins who get their man) aren't normally remembered as assassins.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And this is on top of Covid. And all completely pointless


    ‘LONDON, March 3 (Reuters) - JPMorgan said on Thursday it expected Russia's economy to contract 35% in the second quarter and 7% in 2022 with the economy suffering an economic output decline comparable to the 1998 crisis.’

    https://twitter.com/balmforthtom/status/1499471777096998919?s=21

    Many on the thread saying this is way too optimistic for Russia

    I’m struggling to make sense of those numbers. It’s only just March. Down 35% in the quarter but only 7% for the year?
    Yes. That basically assumes that Q1, Q3 and Q4 will all be perfectly normal quarters. (35% of 25% = 7-8%).

    So it's a rubbish forecast.
    Or potentially pricing in regime change and removal of sanctions. If it's as you say then it's completely idiotic, the -35% for Q2 sets a new lower baseline.
    If the Russian economy does NOT bounce back Putin will - on these figures - have shrunk the Russian economy by a third, in order to gain the enmity of the entire world, ruin his country’s moral reputation, and make his vaunted army look pathetically laughable, in order to gain control of loads and loads of rubble, and rule over 40 million people who all want him dead, and might try to arrange that

    It makes the 2nd Iraq war look like a brilliant piece of historic statecraft
    Well yes.

    There's no good outcome for Putin now:

    Afghanistan II (but with massive financial sanctions)
    or
    Retreat (and Ukraine joins the EU and NATO)
    or
    Nuclear holocaust
    I think that it'll be the first. Putin can't be the Czar if he lets go of part of his empire and runs away, and he can't be the Czar if both he and his empire end up being turned into a vast sheet of irradiated glass.

    He's an absolute monarch who is quite happy to let his army and his civil population alike suffer terribly to achieve what he wants. Inflicting years of indiscriminate butchery on the Ukrainian population - until everyone who won't accept absorption by Russia is either dead or in exile - won't faze the man at all. Nor will turning Russia into a vast new North Korea. Life under the Kim dynasty is, after all, vastly worse even than life under Putin, yet they've been in power since the late 1940s.

    Basically if he's as cruel and merciless as Stalin (compared with whose reign of terror the late-period Soviet Union looks positively herbivorous,) then he can do almost whatever he wants. So long as the man shows a sufficient regard for the survival of Russia and his own self-preservation not to attempt a direct military engagement with NATO then he can do what he likes to both Ukraine and Belarus - which, whilst he would also doubtless like to recapture the Baltic States, are much larger and more critical to his project.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,122

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,897
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/open-door-die-africans-report-racism-hostility-trying-flee-ukraine-rcna17953

    Alexander Somto Orah, 25, was among thousands of people crowding a Kyiv train station Friday, hoping to flee Ukraine amid the Russian invasion. He said he and his friends hoped to get to safety at the Polish border quickly but that officials wouldn’t allow the group of Africans to board trains out of the region.

    “I was like, ‘You are picking only white people!’” Orah said. He said he and his friends briefly made it onto a second train headed to Poland but were quickly kicked off, with officials telling them “Ukrainians only.”


    Mind you, those men will be lucky to get out of Ukraine. Zelensky wants them to stay and fight.
    Perhaps the train guards were on secondment from the Home Office?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    edited March 2022
    Gotta say I am surprised Netflix hasn't snapped up the rights to Servant of the People.

    Feel like it would be a big hit right now.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Interestingly:

    1905 Revelation was in the wake of the frailer in the Russia-Japan war - which did not go well for the Russians.
    1917 Revelation Was in the middle of the frailer in WW1 which did not going well for the Russians.
    1991 Revelation was in the wake of the frailer in their Afghan war- which did not go well for the Russians.

    Anybody spot a them here?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Probably more than one.
    I meant bodyguard as a unit, not a single person.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/17773058/boreham-wood-name-football-team-borehamwood/

    However, the Hertfordshire town has been interpreted as many different spellings over the years, including 'Boram Woode', 'Borramwode' and 'Barham Wood'.

    It is now socially accepted that the town is called Borehamwood, as is regularly seen on street signs.

    This may have started with the renaming of Elstree station to Elstree & Borehamwood in 1953.

    There has never been an official decision to name the town 'Borehamwood', but Elstree Council became Elstree and Borehamwood council in 1982 and the one-word name has stuck.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,296

    Scott_xP said:

    Exc: Ukraine war has curbed PM's ability to trigger Article 16 before Stormont elections in May, Govt sources tell @Telegraph.

    Johnson is now “unlikely” to deploy the safeguard mechanism this side of the ballot

    1/3

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/03/03/brexit-back-burner-ukraine-war-hits-boris-johnsons-ability-trigger/

    Every cloud... (except mushroom clouds, obvs)
    Every cloud has a strontium lining……
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
    In which case they'll be liberally butchered with machine gun fire, until the survivors are all either in the gulags or quaking with terror at home. The Russian security apparatus is vast and totally corrupt.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,296
    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    Labour seems to want to.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,734

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russiain response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    In a joint letter, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, and Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, called on ministers to address Russian finance flowing into the UK.

    Writing to their counterparts, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, both possible contenders to succeed Boris Johnson in No 10, Lammy and Reeves said: “Donors who have made money from Russia or have alleged links to the Putin regime have given £1.93m to either the Conservative party or individual Conservative associations since Boris Johnson took power in July 2019. Will the Conservative party agree to return it?”


    Wow 1.93m in three years that's about 700k per year or about 2k per Conservative MP.

    Can I ask Conservative members here if they're not embarrassed that their party can be bought for such trivial amounts of money ?

    Are Conservative politicians so addicted to unearned money that they're willing to damage themselves so much for so little ?

    Its the political funding equivalent of a beggar looking for fag ends in the gutter.

    This is a really rich attack line for Labour. It ties in nicely with the sleaze lines which have been pushed quite successfully over the last 12 months or so. And now, we have a juicy dimension of the Tories wallowing in sleaze which puts them on the wrong side of the most polarising conflict of the last 50 years or so.
    I agree with it but think its mostly preaching to the converted who have already been lost over standards in public life generally. Could be worse, could be a Trumpist or Zemmour/Le Pen where it is not just taking the cash but also advocating the idea of strong men who can make their own rules.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    Putin's response to any set back is always escalation. And I'm sure he can make things bloody awful for the people of Ukraine.

    The only problem is that still doesn't solve Putin's problems. Indeed, it just brings him a host of new ones.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And this is on top of Covid. And all completely pointless


    ‘LONDON, March 3 (Reuters) - JPMorgan said on Thursday it expected Russia's economy to contract 35% in the second quarter and 7% in 2022 with the economy suffering an economic output decline comparable to the 1998 crisis.’

    https://twitter.com/balmforthtom/status/1499471777096998919?s=21

    Many on the thread saying this is way too optimistic for Russia

    I’m struggling to make sense of those numbers. It’s only just March. Down 35% in the quarter but only 7% for the year?
    Yes. That basically assumes that Q1, Q3 and Q4 will all be perfectly normal quarters. (35% of 25% = 7-8%).

    So it's a rubbish forecast.
    Or potentially pricing in regime change and removal of sanctions. If it's as you say then it's completely idiotic, the -35% for Q2 sets a new lower baseline.
    If the Russian economy does NOT bounce back Putin will - on these figures - have shrunk the Russian economy by a third, in order to gain the enmity of the entire world, ruin his country’s moral reputation, and make his vaunted army look pathetically laughable, in order to gain control of loads and loads of rubble, and rule over 40 million people who all want him dead, and might try to arrange that

    It makes the 2nd Iraq war look like a brilliant piece of historic statecraft
    Well yes.

    There's no good outcome for Putin now:

    Afghanistan II (but with massive financial sanctions)
    or
    Retreat (and Ukraine joins the EU and NATO)
    or
    Nuclear holocaust
    I think that it'll be the first. Putin can't be the Czar if he lets go of part of his empire and runs away, and he can't be the Czar if both he and his empire end up being turned into a vast sheet of irradiated glass.

    He's an absolute monarch who is quite happy to let his army and his civil population alike suffer terribly to achieve what he wants. Inflicting years of indiscriminate butchery on the Ukrainian population - until everyone who won't accept absorption by Russia is either dead or in exile - won't faze the man at all. Nor will turning Russia into a vast new North Korea. Life under the Kim dynasty is, after all, vastly worse even than life under Putin, yet they've been in power since the late 1940s.

    Basically if he's as cruel and merciless as Stalin (compared with whose reign of terror the late-period Soviet Union looks positively herbivorous,) then he can do almost whatever he wants. So long as the man shows a sufficient regard for the survival of Russia and his own self-preservation not to attempt a direct military engagement with NATO then he can do what he likes to both Ukraine and Belarus - which, whilst he would also doubtless like to recapture the Baltic States, are much larger and more critical to his project.
    Stalin could go further than Putin for two main reasons: 1) a lot easier to control information flow in his day; and 2) so many ordinary Russians endured the most appalling suffering because of idealism - they shared a genuine revolutionary zeal.

    Putin only has cynicism to offer.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
    In which case they'll be liberally butchered with machine gun fire, until the survivors are all either in the gulags or quaking with terror at home. The Russian security apparatus is vast and totally corrupt.
    According to Navalny, arrests run to around 7000, but no shots fired.

    Revolutions often turn when internal security forces refuse to fire on protestors, and join them instead.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,072
    Nigelb said:

    Shoutout for the Polish ambassador - the only one to stick around.

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1499474258283614213
    Polish Ambassador Bartosz Cichocki sat in a 2nd-floor room lined with large windows, wearing a soccer jersey and sipping a glass scotch, full of bravado, and shrugging off the missile explosions that reverberated through the Ukrainian capital.

    Actually the Croatian Ambassador is still in Kyiv too.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Lukoil’s website still down. Verry interesting.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Probably more than one.
    I meant bodyguard as a unit, not a single person.
    I know, it was just my little joke.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Based on "information available", the command of a unit of Belarusian paratroopers has received an order to cross the border into Ukraine, according to a Ukrainian update on Russia’s invasion. A combat order would be made after the crossing, it said, without giving dates 1/

    The update also described the morale of the Belarusian soldiers from the 38th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade as “extremely low”, noting: “The officers and soldiers do not want to play the role of Russian mercenaries.” 2/


    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1499490803101667341

    Not the first report of Belarussians being reticent about crossing the border today.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,349
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    WRT Putin and Russia, it is best to assume that everything we see is an act. People have a habit of projecting their own experience of politics and politicians on to this act, but in doing so they are being taken for idiots. Speculating about palace coups is hopeless.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,998
    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    This is the russified Tory Party that has trained 22,000 Ukrainian soldiers and provided them with thousands of lethal weapons over the last eight years?

    I think the main lesson from this conflict is that political donations are lousy value for money.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    I don't think that last point has ever not been realised.

    There's also the difference that wars in Europe aren't meant to happen whereas they never stop happening in the Middle East in particular and the third world in general.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,912
    edited March 2022
    Taz said:

    Presumably, at some point Putin is going to say: I'll call a ceasefire if you reverse all the financial sanctions.

    What does the West do then?

    Nothing without full withdrawal from Ukraine
    Pre 2014 borders ?
    The status of the Budapest Memorandum is a rational stance for Ukraine, since Russia is one of the signatories, and since the 1991 referendum on independence from Russia - the most recent credible vote aiui - was 84% in favour of independence from Russia.

    Quite what will be practical, however ... ?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    moonshine said:

    I spoke to a Moscow based Russian today. He is out of foreign currency. He is also more or less out of roubles. Because his cards don’t work and he can’t draw more without an appointment at the bank, which are hard to come by. And prices are presumably already rising. I expect he is typical. Better placed than most actually given his income level and education. Described it as the darkest days in Russia in his lifetime.

    After Lehman’s collapsed, I recall Robert Peston wetting his pants about the ATMs not working the next day, so the clunking fist printed money to bail out all the banks. What is happening in Russia this week is what happens without a viable route to the bail out. It’s remarkable how little coverage this is getting. Not so good for viewing figures as war porn I suppose.

    Why can't they print roubles?
    Is that a daft question?
    They can indeed print roubles, which is why although @moonshine is right in his general thrust, I think he's wrong in the specifics.

    Russia should be able to keep its banking system afloat by bathing the system in newly printed roubles.

    But that all that does is shift the problem.

    Because all the roubles in the world can't change the fact that a lot of consumer goods that Russians took for granted will no longer be available in the shops. Sure, there will be domestic food and vodka, but what about imported wine, beer and spirits?

    What about the fact that spare parts for cars will rapidly run out? What about vital components used in manufacturing that need to be imported? Supply chains will be drying up everywhere, and there are very few things in Russia (or anywhere else) that can be be made entirely without some foreign widget.

    And if the factory isn't producing stuff, how does it pay its staff?

    And how will Russians react to empty shelves?

    Inflation will be horrendous.
    The central bank has been burning through reserves and has tripled(?) interest rates in a forlorn attempt to control inflation. Printing roubles in this environment is the path to Weimar funny money.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    edited March 2022
    I feel like, military preparedness aside, Putin also failed to shore up his economic defences. He’s also failed to prepare his population.

    A Russia subsidised by China could ride this out, with some dislocation, and with the support of a properly propagandised population.

    He’s really fucked this.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Fishing said:

    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    This is the russified Tory Party that has trained 22,000 Ukrainian soldiers and provided them with thousands of lethal weapons over the last eight years?

    I think the main lesson from this conflict is that political donations are lousy value for money.
    It is almost inconceivable that Pig Dog should say anything which turned out not to be true, but what's the evidence for the 22,000 claim?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    BigRich said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Interestingly:

    1905 Revelation was in the wake of the frailer in the Russia-Japan war - which did not go well for the Russians.
    1917 Revelation Was in the middle of the frailer in WW1 which did not going well for the Russians.
    1991 Revelation was in the wake of the frailer in their Afghan war- which did not go well for the Russians.

    Anybody spot a them here?
    Yes, very valid point.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    Perhaps if more was done about the channel, then we'd be willing to do more about genuine refugees.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    I had a terrible thought earlier.

    In Washington they must be at least game planning the ultimate: a first strike to take this madman out before he burns the world to hell.

    I read somewhere that Putin is now in some deep bunker under the Urals, presumably for just this reason. Would explain his latest meetings by Zoom

    It may be bollocks of course. Perhaps he confidently strides the Kremlin? But he can’t be that confident, he will know assassination is a real threat
    And it will be the ultra loyal bodyguard who lost his son and brothers in to Ukrainian weapons that will give Putin his "et tu, Brute" moment.
    Have you read the end of Red Storm Rising?
    I was actually just thinking of that this morning: the army train diverted to the central station, etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,826
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    Putin's response to any set back is always escalation. And I'm sure he can make things bloody awful for the people of Ukraine.

    The only problem is that still doesn't solve Putin's problems. Indeed, it just brings him a host of new ones.
    That is likely to be true at home, too.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,807
    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,912

    Anecdata:

    Went to lidl and my local wholefood store earlier this evening.

    Me and one other person wearing a mask in both places.

    The lass on till said she had seen almost no one all day wearing one.

    One over your mouth/nose presumably, but where on earth was the other one?
    LOL. Protecting my wallet from snatchers.

    You can't be too careful in my end of the Midlands.
    As a Midlander, I have only ever been robbed in London.

    Though I am sure that Leicestershire (which I think is your manor) has a tendency towards more dodginess, being further south.

    Ahem.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,835
    Foxy said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
    In which case they'll be liberally butchered with machine gun fire, until the survivors are all either in the gulags or quaking with terror at home. The Russian security apparatus is vast and totally corrupt.
    According to Navalny, arrests run to around 7000, but no shots fired.

    Revolutions often turn when internal security forces refuse to fire on protestors, and join them instead.
    Then again, the most likely explanation for that is simply that the security forces have been able to deal with dissent effectively, so far anyway, without having to resort to the use of live rounds.

    Moreover, the more lawless and degenerate the Russian state becomes, the better a career as an enforcer sounds. You still have secure employment and can extort from the collapsing middle class what's left of its wealth through receipt of bribes, coercion and theft.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,351
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    Perhaps if more was done about the channel, then we'd be willing to do more about genuine refugees.
    Though most asylum seekers do get accepted, thereby are legitimate refugees. Ukranians too have to pass through several safe countries to get here.

    I do hope the Russo-Ukranian War does lead to a more enlightened approach to refugees.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    WRT Putin and Russia, it is best to assume that everything we see is an act. People have a habit of projecting their own experience of politics and politicians on to this act, but in doing so they are being taken for idiots. Speculating about palace coups is hopeless.
    Why on earth is it ‘hopeless’? What a peculiar thing to say. This is politicalbetting.com. We try to forecast political outcomes

    A palace coup, removing Putin, is far from impossible. Indeed I’d say it is ONE of the more likely routes out of this incredible mess. Putin is more like a tsar or a sultan than a communist dictator. He has less absolute power than someone like Xi, and he has just committed a fuck up of the first order. He is imperilled
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,290

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    Bet they’re not really. It’ll be comfortable.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,542

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russiain response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    In a joint letter, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, and Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, called on ministers to address Russian finance flowing into the UK.

    Writing to their counterparts, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, both possible contenders to succeed Boris Johnson in No 10, Lammy and Reeves said: “Donors who have made money from Russia or have alleged links to the Putin regime have given £1.93m to either the Conservative party or individual Conservative associations since Boris Johnson took power in July 2019. Will the Conservative party agree to return it?”


    Wow 1.93m in three years that's about 700k per year or about 2k per Conservative MP.

    Can I ask Conservative members here if they're not embarrassed that their party can be bought for such trivial amounts of money ?

    Are Conservative politicians so addicted to unearned money that they're willing to damage themselves so much for so little ?

    Its the political funding equivalent of a beggar looking for fag ends in the gutter.

    This is a really rich attack line for Labour. It ties in nicely with the sleaze lines which have been pushed quite successfully over the last 12 months or so. And now, we have a juicy dimension of the Tories wallowing in sleaze which puts them on the wrong side of the most polarising conflict of the last 50 years or so.
    Sleaze can be expected but what, to me, is staggering is the stupidity involved.

    The political risk for the money being received would surely be deemed too high for anyone not addicted to unearned income:

    https://youtu.be/HPxHEVA1wds?t=133
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    Perhaps if more was done about the channel, then we'd be willing to do more about genuine refugees.
    Though most asylum seekers do get accepted, thereby are legitimate refugees. Ukranians too have to pass through several safe countries to get here.

    I do hope the Russo-Ukranian War does lead to a more enlightened approach to refugees.
    No doubt the Ukrainians will be getting in the boats to cross the channel.

    Or not.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,826
    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    Shoutout for the Polish ambassador - the only one to stick around.

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1499474258283614213
    Polish Ambassador Bartosz Cichocki sat in a 2nd-floor room lined with large windows, wearing a soccer jersey and sipping a glass scotch, full of bravado, and shrugging off the missile explosions that reverberated through the Ukrainian capital.

    Actually the Croatian Ambassador is still in Kyiv too.
    Shoutout to them, too.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,886
    IshmaelZ said:

    Fishing said:

    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    This is the russified Tory Party that has trained 22,000 Ukrainian soldiers and provided them with thousands of lethal weapons over the last eight years?

    I think the main lesson from this conflict is that political donations are lousy value for money.
    It is almost inconceivable that Pig Dog should say anything which turned out not to be true, but what's the evidence for the 22,000 claim?
    It's been repeated by several loyalists on here, surely that's good enough for anyone?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    Seriously?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
    I hope he is right but I think he has been predicting millions of protesters on the streets of Moscow for a long time now,
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,862
    For anyone thinking russia will subdue Ukraine easily. I have a friend in ukraine that lives in Chessarky and was talking to her earlier to check she was ok as hadnt seen her on line for a few days.....to quote her on the subject of the russian invasion

    ".they exaggerated their power too much. And Ukraine will fight to the last drop of blood."

    This coming from one of of the most peaceful people I know
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
    Yes, though very few Syrians did come by that route.

    I appreciate that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around our approach to Ukranian refugees compared to other refugees. It is an uncomfortable thing to reflect upon, but clearly there is a lot more sympathy with one's of East European origin compared to the Middle East and Africa.

    Until 1967 the refugee convention only applied to Europeans, being drafted in the post war and cold War period.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,444
    edited March 2022

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    I've got £25 on the Tories at 30/1 with BE. Fully expect to lose it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    Probably more than one.
    I meant bodyguard as a unit, not a single person.
    Curse this ambiguous English language.
    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Based on "information available", the command of a unit of Belarusian paratroopers has received an order to cross the border into Ukraine, according to a Ukrainian update on Russia’s invasion. A combat order would be made after the crossing, it said, without giving dates 1/

    The update also described the morale of the Belarusian soldiers from the 38th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade as “extremely low”, noting: “The officers and soldiers do not want to play the role of Russian mercenaries.” 2/


    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1499490803101667341

    Not the first report of Belarussians being reticent about crossing the border today.
    Hard to blame them. Even if they themselves personally believe everything their own president says, what business is it of theirs that the Russians feel it is necessary to go into Ukraine? Not worth dying just to be Putin's dog.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,351
    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    Labour could up the pressure by suggesting the Tories should donate any monies they have received to the charities supporting the refugees from Ukraine. That way the victims benefit rather than the aggressors.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    Has the monster raving loony party done better than expected?

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,763
    edited March 2022

    Leon said:

    Still, not to worry, the Third Horseman approaches. Famine


    ⚡️Economist says Russian invasion could lead to largest wheat shortage in history.

    The invasion will cause a massive supply shock and nothing can be done in the short term to prevent it, according to @ScottIrwinUI, as quoted by Bloomberg.’

    https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1499468025036169216?s=21

    Have you ever gone three months without predicting the end of the world? Perhaps you could found Apocalypse Anonymous.
    I looked up the weirdest addictions and predicting disasters is not in the list. Addiction to the Argentine Tango struck me as a bit weird but is apparently real.

    This affliction however does explain a few things:

    - Visit all the countries in the world (before they disappear)

    - Consume alcohol and drugs (to take your mind off of it or conversely imagine new disasters)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,676

    I feel like, military preparedness aside, Putin also failed to shore up his economic defences. He’s also failed to prepare his population.

    A Russia subsidised by China could ride this out, with some dislocation, and with the support of a properly propagandised population.

    He’s really fucked this.

    I think he genuinely deluded himself into thinking the Russian army would be some kind of liberating force and they'd be welcomed by the Ukrainians as relieving them from the burdens of democracy. Now faced with the reality of a Ukrainian population that has been armed to the teeth by the US and UK for the past three months and new arms coming from European countries as well as general resolve to preserve their freedom Putin seems completely lost.

    They're resorting to tactics used in countries where they only really had a strategic stake like Syria or Libya, the invasion of Ukraine goes beyond just a small strategic gain of Crimea (which they had anyway), there's an emotional aspect here and as has been reported time and again, loads of Russian soldiers aren't on board with the idea of shooting Ukrainians.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,321
    BigRich said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    I am hearing from a contact that certain pharma, detergent and printer ink is now hard to get hold of.

    But basic foodstuffs are still fine.

    I'm baffled as to how anything could be running short already. Is there only a week's stock of these items in Russia?
    From a couple of years ago all leaders know that you are always only 48 hours away from a loo-roll riot, followed by a coup, show trials and liquidations.
    Well, in snowflake Britain obviously, but I thought grudging acceptance/expectation of shortages was in the Russian DNA.
    Equally, Russia does have form for revolutions. 1905, 1917 (x2), and 1991.

    They are willing to suffer a lot, but when desperate enough, brave enough.
    Garry Kasparov interviewed on C4News reckoned there could be millions on the streets before too long.
    I hope he is right but I think he has been predicting millions of protesters on the streets of Moscow for a long time now,
    So it could be another false pawn.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    WRT Putin and Russia, it is best to assume that everything we see is an act. People have a habit of projecting their own experience of politics and politicians on to this act, but in doing so they are being taken for idiots. Speculating about palace coups is hopeless.
    Why on earth is it ‘hopeless’? What a peculiar thing to say. This is politicalbetting.com. We try to forecast political outcomes

    A palace coup, removing Putin, is far from impossible. Indeed I’d say it is ONE of the more likely routes out of this incredible mess. Putin is more like a tsar or a sultan than a communist dictator. He has less absolute power than someone like Xi, and he has just committed a fuck up of the first order. He is imperilled
    I disagree about it being one of the more likely, but I do think limitations on random PB speculations is indeed a hopeless endeavour. Most of the time the out there speculations are rightly ridiculed, but every now and then they come off, and you wouldn't want to miss that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    Perhaps if more was done about the channel, then we'd be willing to do more about genuine refugees.
    Though most asylum seekers do get accepted, thereby are legitimate refugees. Ukranians too have to pass through several safe countries to get here.

    I do hope the Russo-Ukranian War does lead to a more enlightened approach to refugees.
    No doubt the Ukrainians will be getting in the boats to cross the channel.

    Or not.
    The point is that they do not need to, at least at present. They have legal means to travel here, not availible to other refugees.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,351
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
    Yes, though very few Syrians did come by that route.

    I appreciate that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around our approach to Ukranian refugees compared to other refugees. It is an uncomfortable thing to reflect upon, but clearly there is a lot more sympathy with one's of East European origin compared to the Middle East and Africa.

    Until 1967 the refugee convention only applied to Europeans, being drafted in the post war and cold War period.
    It is interesting. And I speak as one who is happy to see lots of them come from where-ever they originated. But I do wonder at the drivers behind perceptions into this. So for example whilst Middle Eastern and African refugees are apparently not welcome, Chinese from Hong Kong are, as were Indians from Uganda. I wonder if anyone has really looked at the reasoning behind this.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
    Yes, though very few Syrians did come by that route.

    I appreciate that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around our approach to Ukranian refugees compared to other refugees. It is an uncomfortable thing to reflect upon, but clearly there is a lot more sympathy with one's of East European origin compared to the Middle East and Africa.

    Until 1967 the refugee convention only applied to Europeans, being drafted in the post war and cold War period.
    Well, there is the uncomfortable but unavoidable fact that Ukrainian refugees are never going to become radicalised, and turn on us, and blow us all to bits by way of thanks for our help and hospitality

    It’s only human nature to welcome them a bit more warmly, even if that is very unfair on the vast majority of blah blah blah
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,734
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Still, not to worry, the Third Horseman approaches. Famine


    ⚡️Economist says Russian invasion could lead to largest wheat shortage in history.

    The invasion will cause a massive supply shock and nothing can be done in the short term to prevent it, according to @ScottIrwinUI, as quoted by Bloomberg.’

    https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1499468025036169216?s=21

    Have you ever gone three months without predicting the end of the world? Perhaps you could found Apocalypse Anonymous.
    I looked up the weirdest addictions and predicting disasters is not in the list. Addiction to the Argentine Tango struck me as a bit weird but is apparently real.

    This affliction however does explain a few things:

    - Visit all the countries in the world (before they disappear)

    - Consume alcohol and drugs (to take your mind off of it or conversely imagine new disasters)
    Do they use Diego Simeone instead of Ray Wilkins to advertise Tango over there?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    I feel like, military preparedness aside, Putin also failed to shore up his economic defences. He’s also failed to prepare his population.

    A Russia subsidised by China could ride this out, with some dislocation, and with the support of a properly propagandised population.

    He’s really fucked this.

    Not sure what would have been the way to prepare his population for the backlash (especially whilst pretending he had no wish to invade, but thank goodness he was ready for it), and I imagine rallying round the flag will occur to some effect, but it does feel like he could have said or done 'something'. Warning them that the evil West would retaliate and it would lead to some disruption, but he had plans to counter, we mustn't bow to pressure kind of thing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,934
    Rumours swirling in Moscow about closed borders & martial law. Flight tickets are sold out as people try to leave. Spoke to journalist who packed up today: it takes her 2 days to drive to Russian border. She gave me this as a gift before she left. @itvnews https://www.itv.com/news/2022-03-03/russians-flee-abroad-amid-worsening-crackdown https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1499481725944090627/photo/1
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,734
    Andy_JS said:

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    I've got £25 on the Tories at 30/1 with BE. Fully expect to lose it.
    Sounds okay at those odds, good luck.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    kle4 said:

    Gotta say I am surprised Netflix hasn't snapped up the rights to Servant of the People.

    Feel like it would be a big hit right now.

    Netflix used to have it on until a year or so ago. Channel 4 has bought the rights and will start showing it from Sunday night.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,444
    It took 57 minutes for Everton to put a goal past Boreham Wood.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    WRT Putin and Russia, it is best to assume that everything we see is an act. People have a habit of projecting their own experience of politics and politicians on to this act, but in doing so they are being taken for idiots. Speculating about palace coups is hopeless.
    Why on earth is it ‘hopeless’? What a peculiar thing to say. This is politicalbetting.com. We try to forecast political outcomes

    A palace coup, removing Putin, is far from impossible. Indeed I’d say it is ONE of the more likely routes out of this incredible mess. Putin is more like a tsar or a sultan than a communist dictator. He has less absolute power than someone like Xi, and he has just committed a fuck up of the first order. He is imperilled
    I disagree about it being one of the more likely, but I do think limitations on random PB speculations is indeed a hopeless endeavour. Most of the time the out there speculations are rightly ridiculed, but every now and then they come off, and you wouldn't want to miss that.
    When I say ‘one of the more likely’ I mean one of about 100 equally plausible exit routes. A 1% chance. About the same as a nuke going off?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,826
    The last independent Russian TV station’s swansong….

    TV Rain goes out with a bang, broadcasting the Swan Lake performance that aired on Soviet TVs in 1991 during the attempted coup against Gorbachev. At a time when many wonder if those around Putin could stop this war in Ukraine and Russia’s plunge into isolation.
    https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status/1499445366411993093
  • Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    Seriously?
    If it was not for the invasion of Ukraine this would have been a Labour landslide, they'll still win comfortably I suppose, I am putting a few grand on them but not taking any big risk.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
    Yes, though very few Syrians did come by that route.

    I appreciate that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around our approach to Ukranian refugees compared to other refugees. It is an uncomfortable thing to reflect upon, but clearly there is a lot more sympathy with one's of East European origin compared to the Middle East and Africa.

    Until 1967 the refugee convention only applied to Europeans, being drafted in the post war and cold War period.
    It is interesting. And I speak as one who is happy to see lots of them come from where-ever they originated. But I do wonder at the drivers behind perceptions into this. So for example whilst Middle Eastern and African refugees are apparently not welcome, Chinese from Hong Kong are, as were Indians from Uganda. I wonder if anyone has really looked at the reasoning behind this.
    Somalia and some other places are absolute hell holes and I don't blame anyone for wanting to get out. Sadly, those countries are also full of absolute scumbags. Not the case with Ukraine.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,862

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    "EU unanimously agrees to grant temporary residence to refugees

    The EU has agreed to grant temporary residence to Ukrainians fleeing the war, for up to three years.

    EU ministers gave the plans the green light at a meeting in Brussels today.

    The bloc's triggered a mechanism - that’s never been used before - to allow Ukrainian nationals and their families the right to work, education and welfare.

    The EU says that those who held long-term residence or refugee status in Ukraine would also be covered - either by the directive or national rules. And that temporary workers or students, who aren't eligible, would be helped to get home."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60582327

    Now let's see if 'world-leading Britain' copies that.

    I am pleased to see such a humanitarian response.

    Perhaps it will encourage a shift in opinion on refugees and asylum. It is a marked contrast to the sink 'em or deport them to Rwanda approach we take to duskier refugees.
    Each situation is unique.

    Ukraine has been willing to fight whereas in Afghanistan opposition to the Taliban was somewhat lacking.
    In both cases though the refugees are those fleeing fighting, not fighting battles. In 2015 it were Syrians as refugees that caused such consternation, and they were fighting.

    Perhaps though it is that we are happier with refugees that we feel European kinship towards. Britain is perhaps realising that we Europeans share common cultures and dreams.
    We've provided a lot of funding towards looking after refugees in Syria. Unlike some other countries...
    Sure, but not promises of visa waivers for 3 years, even for those syrians/afghans with relatives.

    Personally I don't have a problem with accepting Ukranian, and dissenter Russian refugees. It is however a big shift in refugee policy from "sink 'em in the channel" "prosecute those who help refugees enter" and a very welcome awakening to our responsibilities to the victims of war.
    You forget it was the British Government that proposed we should go directly into the camps around Syria and lift out those most in need. It was the German government who decided to just have a policy of anyone who can survive the dangerous journey is welcome but the those who drown are just unlucky. And yes that sounds harsh but that was effectively exactly what Merkel was proposing and that is why she still has blood on her hands.
    Yes, though very few Syrians did come by that route.

    I appreciate that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance around our approach to Ukranian refugees compared to other refugees. It is an uncomfortable thing to reflect upon, but clearly there is a lot more sympathy with one's of East European origin compared to the Middle East and Africa.

    Until 1967 the refugee convention only applied to Europeans, being drafted in the post war and cold War period.
    It is interesting. And I speak as one who is happy to see lots of them come from where-ever they originated. But I do wonder at the drivers behind perceptions into this. So for example whilst Middle Eastern and African refugees are apparently not welcome, Chinese from Hong Kong are, as were Indians from Uganda. I wonder if anyone has really looked at the reasoning behind this.
    Chinese and indian immigrants are generally hard working and supportive of education for their children who do equally well. Look at the general average earning figures for various immigrant groups....superimpose it on the list of those less welcome.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,351
    Nigelb said:

    The last independent Russian TV station’s swansong….

    TV Rain goes out with a bang, broadcasting the Swan Lake performance that aired on Soviet TVs in 1991 during the attempted coup against Gorbachev. At a time when many wonder if those around Putin could stop this war in Ukraine and Russia’s plunge into isolation.
    https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status/1499445366411993093

    Brave and brilliant
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    Word has it that Labour are in trouble in Erdington

    Seriously?
    I assumed that sort of thing had to be said at least once on a by-election day as a matter of tradition. The outcome may not even be constitutionally valid without such a comment beforehand, such is the power of convention.

    If it were true and not just wildly out there speculation it would be a great piece of bragging rights on prediction skill.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,230
    Taz said:

    pm215 said:

    From the Guardian:

    Labour has called on the Tories to return money from donors with links to Russia in response to tensions over Vladimir Putin’s military buildup on the Ukrainian border.

    I'm all for de-russifying the tory party, but surely we don't want to be giving tradable foreign currency *back* to Putin-linked Russians right now?
    Labour seems to want to.
    They should donate it to the Red Cross Ukraine appeal. Or to the Ukrainian Army.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    RH1992 said:

    kle4 said:

    Gotta say I am surprised Netflix hasn't snapped up the rights to Servant of the People.

    Feel like it would be a big hit right now.

    Netflix used to have it on until a year or so ago. Channel 4 has bought the rights and will start showing it from Sunday night.
    Good for them.

    I'm interested, but not 'turn on terrestial tv' interested.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,349
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Ok let's assume the sanctions stay for a period...

    In a few weeks Putin says "These sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia, therefore unless they're stopped we will launch a nuclear attack."

    How does that play out, I wonder?

    Even if the sanctions were dropped is anyone going to trade with Russia for the foreseeable future?

    Every time I try to see a way out of this mess, I cannot see a safe one.

    With these horrendous economic prognoses, there MUST be people close to Putin, close to power, who realise the Ukraine war is an error of galactic magnitude. They are not stupid. They won’t just be watching Russia Today


    Will they move? Do you just stand by as an autocrat destroys your own country? They too will have kids and hopes and dreams for a better Russia, not this squalid disaster
    Assassins who fail to kill their target don't usually do so well.

    And Putin will have his own, extremely loyal, bodyguard.
    I was thinking more of a palace coup. Top technocrats, generals, spies, oligarchs. They can see the catastrophe unfolding for Russia

    But maybe I am giving in to hopecasting, and Putin has total control, and things will indeed get worse. As he promised Macron
    WRT Putin and Russia, it is best to assume that everything we see is an act. People have a habit of projecting their own experience of politics and politicians on to this act, but in doing so they are being taken for idiots. Speculating about palace coups is hopeless.
    Why on earth is it ‘hopeless’? What a peculiar thing to say. This is politicalbetting.com. We try to forecast political outcomes

    A palace coup, removing Putin, is far from impossible. Indeed I’d say it is ONE of the more likely routes out of this incredible mess. Putin is more like a tsar or a sultan than a communist dictator. He has less absolute power than someone like Xi, and he has just committed a fuck up of the first order. He is imperilled
    Of course it is possible. But I am saying that we won't know anything about what is going on. It is a totally closed off world that we know nothing about. You are saying that 'he' has committed a fuck up - I've got no idea how much it was even his decision. There was a weird performance of an interview with his advisors and weird speeches laying claim to half of Eastern Europe- I don't know if any of that was remotely sincere or reflective of his views, or if it was part of a strategy to just confuse us. Basically we are dealing with a rogue state run by a malign, super intelligent and highly secretive oligarchy who continuously outwit us.

    My point is there are things that we can meaningfully try and analyse: how the war is going, the western response, evidence of domestic unrest in Russia etc... but trying to guess what is going on in the Kremlin is futile. If a coup is going to happen we will know nothing of why it has happened.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,523
    Andy_JS said:

    It took 57 minutes for Everton to put a goal past Boreham Wood.

    Shame. I had a quid on Boreham Wood to win at 30/1
This discussion has been closed.