If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
I imagine Putin counted on lots of fifth columnists and maybe an uprising against the Ukrainian government.
Many bullies are themselves cowards, so they assume that everyone else is as well. This one seems to have underestimated his victims, so far anyway.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
Perhaps it should be incorporated into a new state with its capital in Kiev.
A friend trapped in Hostomel village, near the airport, says around 50 Russian tanks and 50 grad launchers gathered and moved toward Kyiv at 1800 - there has been heavy exchange of fire in that direction since. He said the airport had been destroyed and could not be used to land.
Confused by what Mikey Kay said on BBC news. Apparently Russia doesn't have control over Ukraine's eastern airspace. I thought the Ukrainians had virtually no air capability?
Does it simply mean that Russian aircraft are being shot down?
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That background hum of the possibility of imminent nuclear annihilation is back. My youth my youth.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That is crazy talk. Russia is a geographic fact. Do you plan genocide?
Confused by what Mikey Kay said on BBC news. Apparently Russia doesn't have control over Ukraine's eastern airspace. I thought the Ukrainians had virtually no air capability?
Also how are we going to keep supplies of ammunition in to Ukraine if the government falls and the border is closed?
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
Perhaps it should be incorporated into a new state with its capital in Kiev.
Confused by what Mikey Kay said on BBC news. Apparently Russia doesn't have control over Ukraine's eastern airspace. I thought the Ukrainians had virtually no air capability?
Does it simply mean that Russian aircraft are being shot down?
"Hearing that western diplomats at the Security Council are increasingly confident that they have peeled China away from Russia in the imminent vote, persuading Beijing to abstain rather than vote against the resolution. In the quest to isolate Russia this would be significant."
Confused by what Mikey Kay said on BBC news. Apparently Russia doesn't have control over Ukraine's eastern airspace. I thought the Ukrainians had virtually no air capability?
Also how are we going to keep supplies of ammunition in to Ukraine if the government falls and the border is closed?
The border between Ukraine and its immediate neighbours in NATO must be at least 1,000km in length. The Russians can't station a platoon of border guards every few hundred metres along it.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
To be honest I was finding it difficult to parse the implications of the two messages together.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
"Hearing that western diplomats at the Security Council are increasingly confident that they have peeled China away from Russia in the imminent vote, persuading Beijing to abstain rather than vote against the resolution. In the quest to isolate Russia this would be significant."
I worry what that peeling will have cost the West, if it is true.
I listened to an interesting R4 podcast on the Ukraine crisis last week (pre-invasion). It made the point that China shared Russia's desire 'to knock the US off its perch' (my words)... but not at the expense of the global economy or damaging Chinas lucrative western markets. Maybe we are reaching that point.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
Russia won't just disappear though will it?
No it won't and alas any efforts to eviscerate it would be ill designed.
Zelenskyy in his evening speech: "This night will be harder than the day. Many cities of our state are under attack: Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, our boys and girls in the Donbas, the cities of the south, special attention to Kyiv. We can't lose the capital." https://facebook.com/president.gov.ua
Breathing space via some kind of ceasefire in advance of negotiations is good for both Russia and Ukraine to prep in the events talks break down, but only for Ukraine if they can regroup and re-arm.
A lot of comment on and previous threads about whether Putin miscalculated . I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Russia had left itself minimal off ramps over Ukraine unless it got a raft of concessions that it wasn't going to get. You can see that as miscalculation or just part of a plan to do this come what may.
Putin is a tactician, not a great strategist but for years he has been protrayed by Western media as some kind of super shrewd, five dimensional chess playing action man but he isn't. He is a classic player on weakness and the West has let him away with it. Russia could have been backed up a long time ago. Let me give you an example of how it works when Putin sees power in return.
Israel can quite happily bomb whatever it feels like in Syria, Russia doesn't respond. The understanding is that Israel targets things related to Hezbollah & Iran and that's ok even though its bombing Syrian facilities. Now this doesn't make sense, this is Putin's ally Assad, and Israel acts with comparative impunity.
Israel condemns the Russian actions in Ukraine. the Russian governments reported reaction to this? They have told Israel that they wont let it impact on the Israeli/Russian relationship.
This is strongman Putin threatening the Swedes & Finns if they move to join NATO and yet... He knows the Israelis are capable of doing serious damage in its area of interest in Syria so he backs off.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
I imagine Putin counted on lots of fifth columnists and maybe an uprising against the Ukrainian government.
Many bullies are themselves cowards, so they assume that everyone else is as well. This one seems to have underestimated his victims, so far anyway.
Ukraine used to have a big "Russian speakers" problem, mostly east of the Dnieper. It was said they were compounding this by not giving minority rights to Russian speakers but as time has gone on this seems to have wound down. Maybe it's because as time goes on people learn more Ukrainian, their children learn Ukrainian at school etc, maybe people feel they are civic Ukrainians or just don't believe Putin's irredentist shit. But it seems Ukrainians are now far more united whatever their first language. Zelensky is of course a Russian-speaking Jew and seems to have the народ united behind him.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Zelenskyy in his evening speech: "This night will be harder than the day. Many cities of our state are under attack: Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, our boys and girls in the Donbas, the cities of the south, special attention to Kyiv. We can't lose the capital." https://facebook.com/president.gov.ua
Worth remembering it's only a few days in. I don't recall if anyone had dared estimate what a 'good' defensive outcome might look like, given the uncertainty in just how broad the Russian assault would be.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender. But my theory is You can lose freedom, sovereignty, democracy, these things could get it back. If Putin were to fall, Gorbachev 2 came along, who knows where it can be in ten or twenty years. So I think Zelenskiy could accept Putin’s terms. Play the long game looking for a fresh breeze from the East. I feel I know these Ukrainian leaders now as though they were at my shoulder. I don’t want to lose them. I would be very upset. 😭
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Just send further reinforcements to NATO countries, we do not need to get involved in Ukraine beyond the supplies already sent to them
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That background hum of the possibility of imminent nuclear annihilation is back. My youth my youth.
I'm a child of the Eighties so, given that the Soviet Union collapsed as long ago as it did, I was a bit young to spend too much time worrying about the consequences of nuclear Armageddon.
Looking back though, despite the fact that the USSR was bloody nasty at least it was governed by rational actors. I'm absolutely bloody terrified of Russia under Putin. Just when I and everyone else I love had made it through the whole fucking plague nightmare unscathed, we now have to deal with the imminent possibility of being turned to irradiated glass in a fraction of a second, or worse.
My God, I wish that bastard would just drop down dead of a stroke, or a coronary, or trip over his shoelaces, fall down the stairs and break his neck, or whatever else. The man's basically the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Military intervention too late now to help Ukraine people, if you accept, and some prominent Tory MPs don’t - we could not put NATO on the ground with no fly zone last month to deter Putin, then sanctions, this week, proper unified sanctions to bring down Putin regime, was really our last hope in the West not to concede failure on Ukraine. It was actually something we could do.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
Confused by what Mikey Kay said on BBC news. Apparently Russia doesn't have control over Ukraine's eastern airspace. I thought the Ukrainians had virtually no air capability?
Does it simply mean that Russian aircraft are being shot down?
Even Ukraine is claiming only a handful of fighter aircraft destroyed.
Breathing space via some kind of ceasefire in advance of negotiations is good for both Russia and Ukraine to prep in the events talks break down, but only for Ukraine if they can regroup and re-arm.
A lot of comment on and previous threads about whether Putin miscalculated . I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Russia had left itself minimal off ramps over Ukraine unless it got a raft of concessions that it wasn't going to get. You can see that as miscalculation or just part of a plan to do this come what may.
Putin is a tactician, not a great strategist but for years he has been protrayed by Western media as some kind of super shrewd, five dimensional chess playing action man but he isn't. He is a classic player on weakness and the West has let him away with it. Russia could have been backed up a long time ago. Let me give you an example of how it works when Putin sees power in return.
Israel can quite happily bomb whatever it feels like in Syria, Russia doesn't respond. The understanding is that Israel targets things related to Hezbollah & Iran and that's ok even though its bombing Syrian facilities. Now this doesn't make sense, this is Putin's ally Assad, and Israel acts with comparative impunity.
Israel condemns the Russian actions in Ukraine. the Russian governments reported reaction to this? They have told Israel that they wont let it impact on the Israeli/Russian relationship.
This is strongman Putin threatening the Swedes & Finns if they move to join NATO and yet... He knows the Israelis are capable of doing serious damage in its area of interest in Syria so he backs off.
Power and its display and he gets the message.
A very good post, IMO. And a lesson we should take on board now if we want to prevent any attacks on NATO territory. If he is fairly sure we’ll fight, they won’t happen.
What it means for Ukraine is far less clear. What it seems he wants, Ukraine simply will not give up (ie their self determination). Whether he’s prepared to back down sufficiently for a ceasefire and deal any time soon, I seriously doubt.
Illia Ponomarenko @IAPonomarenko Russian Sukhoi Su-25 downed in a dogfight near Vinnytsya The enemy was probably trying to attack munition depots in Kalynivka
Strange times when a comedian becomes a top-class leader.
He's a performer. Arguably that's what you need. As long as he delegates the military stuff to people who know what they are doing (and I strongly suspect NATO is running his war for him)
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Military intervention too late now to help Ukraine people, if you accept, and some prominent Tory MPs don’t - we could not put NATO on the ground with no fly zone last month to deter Putin, then sanctions, this week, proper unified sanctions to bring down Putin regime, was really our last hope in the West not to concede failure on Ukraine. It was actually something we could do.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
Yeah but it's all ok because the UN are going to pass a resolution deploring it that the Chinese might abstain in and the Russians will definitely veto. So that's all good then.
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
It's too late.
We should have had the RAF over Ukraine before hand in a "training role". A poison pill.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Strange times when a comedian becomes a top-class leader.
He's a performer. Arguably that's what you need. As long as he delegates the military stuff to people who know what they are doing (and I strongly suspect NATO is running his war for him)
Nah, that is what his MoD and Armed Forces are for. The contrast between Zelenskiy out there with his people with his own gun and Putin in his heavily socially distanced paranoia is very telling.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Military intervention too late now to help Ukraine people, if you accept, and some prominent Tory MPs don’t - we could not put NATO on the ground with no fly zone last month to deter Putin, then sanctions, this week, proper unified sanctions to bring down Putin regime, was really our last hope in the West not to concede failure on Ukraine. It was actually something we could do.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
The game is not to deter. It is to destroy. We didn't want to deter Putin, and leave him available to do the same next year. He needs removing. Suck him into a war he can't win and destroy him in detail. He has form. He killed in Salisbury, we want revenge. Hang him out to dry.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender…
Putin’s terms were that the Ukraine military lay down their arms, and that their president go to the country which launched an invasion on his capitol. That is pretty well unconditional surrender in my view.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Nobody here has changed their opinion of Boris, we're just mentally stable enough to acknowledge him doing well at something. As for a decent command of Russian being standard in world politicians (those in Russia and its neighbours excepted), I strongly doubt that.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Yes, it is depressingly English not to speak another language. Even living in another country. We in Wales know this all too well.
And in Canada, most of the Anglo Prime Ministers can't even speak their country's other official language, French.
PM Harper's attempts to speak French were excruciating. Almost as funny as Redwood's famous attempt to sing in Welsh.
Characteristically, Trudeau speaks professorial, classical French ... which is nothing like the language spoken in Quebec.
"⚡️BREAKING: Kyiv home guard, the 112th Territorial Defense Brigade, now operate British-provided NLAWs. Welcome to hell, motherfuckers."
It's pretty notable how much Russia has been unwilling/unable to make headway into urban areas. If they do it is going to be horrifically bloody for all involved.
It’s interesting and like a horrible bloody Petri dish for weapons - for the US/UK they can provide all sorts of weapons that have never been tried in real life situations, and they could never be otherwise be tested against Russian armour in real life conditions/testing.
If they didn’t work then back to the drawing board but if they are working, and they seem to be, then it changes the balance of NATO/Russian military planning. If Russian tanks are vulnerable then the idea of them sweeping across the Baltic is obsolete and it swings to air power. So HYUFD’s tank requirement might be fighting the last war.
A bit like the Turkish drones proving more than useful and making military planners have to rethink.
Am I right that this is the first time NLAWs have been used in anger? From what I am reading I am getting the impression they are proving remarkably effective
It's not the first time in the sense that they are just latest upgrade in a line that started with PIATs, Bazookas and Panzerfausts. The former two weren't that effective but the latter were, so much so that Allied troops made use of any they could capture intact. The development of hand held AT weapons in WW2 rendered tanks pretty vulnerable in theatres offering any reasonable amount of cover, so tanks had then to be used in tandem with infantry to first flush out opposing industry in places of ambush.
Yes but these things are very different, not least in their ability to manoeuvre over a target vehicle and attack it fro above. There is a good summary of the weapon here:
They are at pains to point out that this is a missile rather than a rocket.
"Cognizant of threats posed by modern active protection systems and reactive armor, the NLAW operator can opt for an overfly top attack mode. This launches the missile toward the tank turret, where it explodes. Its downward-angled HEAT warhead perforates the thin upper armor even if it’s covered with Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA)."
Partly a SAAB product, therefore built like a ... tank.
It has very particular attributes - little blowback so can be used from confined spaces, easy to learn, short minimum range - the width of my garden, light (12kg). can punch through quite thick armour (0.5m), and can hit either directly or from above.
Also cheap - £20k.
If that's right, it may be that Russia suddenly has a lot of tanks that are going to be surplus to requirements.
E-Bay could be flooded with the things.
Since it's mainly made in somewhat dispersed places in the UK - especially NI, BJ can sell the replenishment order as "Levelling Up".
But one hopes that they are already back in production.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
In the long run we are all dead.
Putin will not lose his war against Ukraine; he's dismantled the safety net of men in grey coats.
If Ukraine starts beating Russia in conventional warfare, he will switch to total war (using thermobaric weapons on civilians), if he starts losing that then he'll just escalate again, with horrific consequences. Then when he's done with his rape of Ukraine, where will he look next?
Strobe Talbott @strobetalbott This war is not a new Cold War. It’s a new hot one. It’s much more like the beginning of World War Two. We’ll see if the best have enough conviction, while the worst with their passionate intensity are bully cowards.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender…
Putin’s terms were that the Ukraine military lay down their arms, and that their president go to the country which launched an invasion on his capitol. That is pretty well unconditional surrender in my view.
Yes I think Zelenskiy's response might mirror the Snake Island heroes
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Military intervention too late now to help Ukraine people, if you accept, and some prominent Tory MPs don’t - we could not put NATO on the ground with no fly zone last month to deter Putin, then sanctions, this week, proper unified sanctions to bring down Putin regime, was really our last hope in the West not to concede failure on Ukraine. It was actually something we could do.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
Yes you are right. Which is what Elwood demanded. A genuinely great guy!
Anyway watching ITV News, Johnson speaks Ukrainian, who'd have thought that.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That background hum of the possibility of imminent nuclear annihilation is back. My youth my youth.
I'm a child of the Eighties so, given that the Soviet Union collapsed as long ago as it did, I was a bit young to spend too much time worrying about the consequences of nuclear Armageddon.
Looking back though, despite the fact that the USSR was bloody nasty at least it was governed by rational actors. I'm absolutely bloody terrified of Russia under Putin. Just when I and everyone else I love had made it through the whole fucking plague nightmare unscathed, we now have to deal with the imminent possibility of being turned to irradiated glass in a fraction of a second, or worse.
My God, I wish that bastard would just drop down dead of a stroke, or a coronary, or trip over his shoelaces, fall down the stairs and break his neck, or whatever else. The man's basically the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
This is the bit I think folk are missing about China. The PRC are a vicious, brutal regime. But fundamentally rational. Hence.the abstention.
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
Wtf is the UAE doing abstaining? Or India for that matter?
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That background hum of the possibility of imminent nuclear annihilation is back. My youth my youth.
I'm a child of the Eighties so, given that the Soviet Union collapsed as long ago as it did, I was a bit young to spend too much time worrying about the consequences of nuclear Armageddon.
Looking back though, despite the fact that the USSR was bloody nasty at least it was governed by rational actors. I'm absolutely bloody terrified of Russia under Putin. Just when I and everyone else I love had made it through the whole fucking plague nightmare unscathed, we now have to deal with the imminent possibility of being turned to irradiated glass in a fraction of a second, or worse.
My God, I wish that bastard would just drop down dead of a stroke, or a coronary, or trip over his shoelaces, fall down the stairs and break his neck, or whatever else. The man's basically the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
This is the bit I think folk are missing about China. The PRC are a vicious, brutal regime. But fundamentally rational. Hence.the abstention.
They want to rule the world, rather than a pile of molten bones.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
I am not enjoying it. I have been to Ukraine on holiday it is a beautiful country with lovely friendly people who want to be part of the European mainstream. I have Ukrainian friends.
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Yes, it is depressingly English not to speak another language. Even living in another country. We in Wales know this all too well.
And in Canada, most of the Anglo Prime Ministers can't even speak their country's other official language, French.
PM Harper's attempts to speak French were excruciating. Almost as funny as Redwood's famous attempt to sing in Welsh.
Characteristically, Trudeau speaks professorial, classical French ... which is nothing like the language spoken in Quebec.
My 19 year old granddaughter speaks English, Welsh, French, Italian and Japanese
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
Snake Island The Ghost Klitschko
Ukrainian morale is extremely high, as you state, the national mythology of Ukraine and its' touchstones are being created before our eyes. They may collapse, but based o all we've seen so far it's hard to say that the Ukrainian people look close to folding.
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
Wtf is the UAE doing abstaining? Or India for that matter?
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
Wtf is the UAE doing abstaining? Or India for that matter?
Apparently there was concern they would vote with Russia
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
What on Earth do you want us to do, fight Russia? That paranoid psychopath in the Kremlin may well order us all wiped out with nuclear weapons as it is at the rate things are going. Starting World War III virtually guarantees it.
Putin and Lavrov don't give a f***. Putin has already suggested he will use nukes.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Military intervention too late now to help Ukraine people, if you accept, and some prominent Tory MPs don’t - we could not put NATO on the ground with no fly zone last month to deter Putin, then sanctions, this week, proper unified sanctions to bring down Putin regime, was really our last hope in the West not to concede failure on Ukraine. It was actually something we could do.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
Yeah but it's all ok because the UN are going to pass a resolution deploring it that the Chinese might abstain in and the Russians will definitely veto. So that's all good then.
None of it is good. We couldn’t help the Ukraine people this time. It’s because Putin is crazy and unpredictable. And unified sanctions were a big flop. Again.
The only hope with me is he might have blown it with his own people. I’m not convinced because city’s tend to be a bit cosmo-litan, right wing autocrats like Putin and Erdogan tend to get their support from out in the sticks.
But if we are listening to Boris address, we don’t want anymore Russian or Ukrainian people getting hurt in this meat blender of a conflict this weekend? I don’t. I want them to live and see a future without Putin.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender…
Putin’s terms were that the Ukraine military lay down their arms, and that their president go to the country which launched an invasion on his capitol. That is pretty well unconditional surrender in my view.
Yes I think Zelenskiy's response might mirror the Snake Island heroes
No, he seems to have responded with his own proposals for a ceasefire. And unlike Putin, has refrained from gratuitous insults.
If Russia really are interested in stopping this then it is possible, but as I said above, I think Putin’s demands aren’t going to be something Ukraine will contemplate.
Of course I might be wrong. And it’s also possible that a bloody stalemate might shift Russian demands.
As an admitted ignoramus, I don't really see the point of tanks. Who would get behind the wheel of one of those things (unless you're Liz Truss) to roll slowly toward somewhere with everyone taking potshots at you? Protestors seem to be the only thing a tank is good against. Haven't attack helicopters been the way forward for 30 years or more?
I understand India buys a lot of military kit of Russia, including some 'technology transfer' to build local equipment. and I think India feels it needs to keep this trade open, in fear of china mostly.
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
Do the Ukrainians not have access to thermobaric technology?
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
Snake Island The Ghost Klitschko
The man who blew up the bridge. And himself.
Yes. A suicide bomber who is a genuine martyr. The world is a very strange place.
Something I never expected to see: a young female MP in a European country getting advice from people on Twitter on how to use a gun in the course of a war in her own country.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Regime change. It is Putin that is the problem. The Russian people are his victims too.
Russia is the problem. All of my life they've been threatening my death. This must lead to the end of Russia.
That background hum of the possibility of imminent nuclear annihilation is back. My youth my youth.
I'm a child of the Eighties so, given that the Soviet Union collapsed as long ago as it did, I was a bit young to spend too much time worrying about the consequences of nuclear Armageddon.
Looking back though, despite the fact that the USSR was bloody nasty at least it was governed by rational actors. I'm absolutely bloody terrified of Russia under Putin. Just when I and everyone else I love had made it through the whole fucking plague nightmare unscathed, we now have to deal with the imminent possibility of being turned to irradiated glass in a fraction of a second, or worse.
My God, I wish that bastard would just drop down dead of a stroke, or a coronary, or trip over his shoelaces, fall down the stairs and break his neck, or whatever else. The man's basically the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
This is the bit I think folk are missing about China. The PRC are a vicious, brutal regime. But fundamentally rational. Hence.the abstention.
They want to rule the world, rather than a pile of molten bones.
Quite. In a full-scale nuclear war, the whole world basically perishes. Even if not a single warhead explodes over China, it'll be frozen in a nuclear winter and saturated with lethal radioactive fallout. The end result's the same as that suffered by the Russians, the Americans and us - agonizing death. Only more drawn out.
If you'd told me 48 hours ago that there would be even a question about Russia winning this War.
Depends what winning is considered to be, doesn't it
Presumably it'd be hard for Russia to not come out ahead in terms of gained territory etc, given the disparities, but the ambition shown by the initial assaults would suggest limited gains (or failure to exact regime change etc) would be a failure?
But the 'disputed' territory is held by Russia already. Surely everywhere else would face massive resistance?
The area claimed by the 'independent' republics was not entirely held by them. I'd assumed if a limited goal was intended it was to expand that area so that the entire areas claimed by them would be under their control. Even if that was all they managed, it would still be a gain.
Not much of one. Considering what has been lost.
Russia has lost all credibility in the civilised world. I really don't know where it goes from here.
Maybe it might as well go for broke invade Eastern Europe see where the chips land
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
I am not enjoying it. I have been to Ukraine on holiday it is a beautiful country with lovely friendly people who want to be part of the European mainstream. I have Ukrainian friends.
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
Sorry, but that's how you fight a war.
You sure it’s going to work out next couple of days like you saying. We might wake up in morning with Klitchko and Zelenskiy dead and gone for good 😕.
If Eabhal then posts like the lunatic ISIS commander he is - Fantastic! Legends! Martyrdom! I will throw up. 🤮
*If* Ukraine somehow beats back Russia what's the next stage? Does Putin back down and admit defeat (cemeting his own removal, in time), or does he escalate? Putin's already made the calculation that the West won't intervene or militarily retaliate for conventional warfare in Ukraine. Not a massive step, especially for someone evidently not acting rationally, to escalate to nuclear warfare - with no fear of retribution.
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
Sky reporting that if Russian forces are held up they could use thermo baric super powerful non nuclear bomb
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
Do the Ukrainians not have access to thermobaric technology?
The UN Security Council is finished after Putin's mad gamble imho.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
I am not enjoying it. I have been to Ukraine on holiday it is a beautiful country with lovely friendly people who want to be part of the European mainstream. I have Ukrainian friends.
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
Sorry, but that's how you fight a war.
You don't need to justify yourself. Everything you have said is perfectly obvious to anyone who isn't a shill for the Russian warmongerers.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Yes, it is depressingly English not to speak another language. Even living in another country. We in Wales know this all too well.
And in Canada, most of the Anglo Prime Ministers can't even speak their country's other official language, French.
PM Harper's attempts to speak French were excruciating. Almost as funny as Redwood's famous attempt to sing in Welsh.
Characteristically, Trudeau speaks professorial, classical French ... which is nothing like the language spoken in Quebec.
My 19 year old granddaughter speaks English, Welsh, French, Italian and Japanese
Then she will never be Prime Minister. Tony Blair and Boris speak French and that is more than enough.
I understand India buys a lot of military kit of Russia, including some 'technology transfer' to build local equipment. and I think India feels it needs to keep this trade open, in fear of china mostly.
still disappointing.
That sounds plausible, although I've also read that India - which is still a predominantly agrarian society - imports an enormous quantity of fertiliser from Russian plants, and is presumably worried that it wouldn't be able to feed itself if it rebuked Russia and participated in sanctions.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
Whatever you think, it's politically impossible for him to back down now. Legends are being born.
Snake Island The Ghost Klitschko
The man who blew up the bridge. And himself.
It's heartbreaking hearing first the tragedy, then the stories behind the people - such as Shakun, who sacrificed himself to blow up the bridge. His last instagram post was a photo of him and his two daughters holding up the first fish he'd ever caught, with the caption 'we will return to Trout Lake in the spring', or one of the Snake Island soldiers who just days before had been a teen recording goofy dances for TikTok.
How depressingly English it is to be impressed by a fat lying soj when he turns out to be a flsoj who can string together three rehearsed sentences in a foreign language. Even if he could take and answer questions in that language which I bet he couldn't, that's standard in politicians anywhere else in the world, USA excepted.
Yes, it is depressingly English not to speak another language. Even living in another country. We in Wales know this all too well.
And in Canada, most of the Anglo Prime Ministers can't even speak their country's other official language, French.
PM Harper's attempts to speak French were excruciating. Almost as funny as Redwood's famous attempt to sing in Welsh.
Characteristically, Trudeau speaks professorial, classical French ... which is nothing like the language spoken in Quebec.
My 19 year old granddaughter speaks English, Welsh, French, Italian and Japanese
Then she will never be Prime Minister. Tony Blair and Boris speak French and that is more than enough.
I have no doubt at all as she has no interest in politics
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender…
Putin’s terms were that the Ukraine military lay down their arms, and that their president go to the country which launched an invasion on his capitol. That is pretty well unconditional surrender in my view.
Yes I think Zelenskiy's response might mirror the Snake Island heroes
No, he seems to have responded with his own proposals for a ceasefire. And unlike Putin, has refrained from gratuitous insults.
If Russia really are interested in stopping this then it is possible, but as I said above, I think Putin’s demands aren’t going to be something Ukraine will contemplate.
Of course I might be wrong. And it’s also possible that a bloody stalemate might shift Russian demands.
Well, as I said, that isn't something the Ukrainians will contemplate even if he doesn't use mat to express it. And they have it in their power to impose a bloody stalemate.
Would be impressed with Boris if his next foray into Russian is to invite Uncle Vova to suck his cock.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
I am not enjoying it. I have been to Ukraine on holiday it is a beautiful country with lovely friendly people who want to be part of the European mainstream. I have Ukrainian friends.
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
Sorry, but that's how you fight a war.
You sure it’s going to work out next couple of days like you saying. We might wake up in morning with Klitchko and Zelenskiy dead and gone for good 😕.
If Eabhal then posts like the lunatic ISIS commander he is - Fantastic! Legends! Martyrdom! I will throw up. 🤮
We can have opinions on this, but in the end it is the Ukrainians themselves who have agency. We don’t decide for them. They seem very certain of their actions; we can only decide whether or not to offer support.
I don't that that tweet makes the critical point you seem to think it does.
I've been vocal in dislike of Boris, including that the current situation should not mean he sticks around - quite the opposite in fact.
But that tweet to me shows that he could see things are serious and for once cut out the showmanship and bluster, and made as reasonable a pledge as he could make. NOT seeking to embody the spirit of Churchill in such a moment or indulge in grandiose verbosity would be one of the more professional, serious things Boris will have done as PM.
Zelensky doesn't need a faux-Churchill, he needs help. Boris cannot really give him much, but within the bounds of diplomatic support he's offered what he can.
I doubt Zelensky wanted to hear funny stories about trips to Peppa Pig world....or false promises about the British coming to fight the Russian on the beaches.
Ultimately Boris reaction will be judged by what kit they get to the Ukrainians and how effective sanctions are.
I certainly don’t see much political upside for the PM in providing some warm words and allowing a few buildings to be lit up in blue and yellow, if the outcome is a disaster for Ukraine and its people. The upside for him is simply in pushing his inadequacies and dishonesty off the news agenda.
21:33 BREAKING Zelensky - Ukraine ready to discuss ceasefire A spokesman for Ukrainian President Zelensky has just said the country is prepared to hold ceasefire and peace talks with Russia immediately.
He said Russian and Ukrainian officials are currently discussing a time and place for talks to be held.
21:41 Ukraine denies reports it rebuffed offer of peace talks Ukraine has denied reports that it rebuffed a Russian offer to explore peace talks.
The Ukrainian president's spokesman, Serhiy Nykyforov, said on Facebook: "I have to deny statements that we have refused to hold talks.
"Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about the end to fighting and about peace. This is our unchanged position.
"We agreed to the offer by the Russian president. Right at this moment, the sides are consulting on the place and time of holding the negotiating process.
"The sooner the talks begin, the more chances there will be to restore normal life."
I don’t think this means that talks have been agreed - rather that Ukraine has countered Putin’s suggestion of talks, which carried absurd preconditions (effectively unconditional surrender), with their own more rational offer.
I’m praying for a ceasefire when I go to bed tonight.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
I think a ceasefire is premature. A ceasefire favours the belligerent on top. At the moment it would favour the Russians. Get them into Kyiv and start murdering them street by street and a ceasefire might start to favour the Ukies.
My Dad told me when Arthur Scargill called the miners strike off, they had a big booze up in the con club. I asked, why did he call it off. The answer, leaders can only lead their people so far into a lost cause.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
I am not enjoying it. I have been to Ukraine on holiday it is a beautiful country with lovely friendly people who want to be part of the European mainstream. I have Ukrainian friends.
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
Sorry, but that's how you fight a war.
You sure it’s going to work out next couple of days like you saying. We might wake up in morning with Klitchko and Zelenskiy dead and gone for good 😕.
If Eabhal then posts like the lunatic ISIS commander he is - Fantastic! Legends! Martyrdom! I will throw up. 🤮
If Klitchko and Zelenskiy are dead, they will be martyrs to the cause and Ukraine will fight on. Their resolve is Churchillian "we will fight them on the beaches" type stuff. Never surrender. As much as people like you want them to. Russia will keep bleeding until they pull out.
Comments
Many bullies are themselves cowards, so they assume that everyone else is as well. This one seems to have underestimated his victims, so far anyway.
https://twitter.com/MaxRTucker/status/1497310044123246592
My youth my youth.
I can't help feeling the West sitting on its hands is morally reprehensible. I am no hawk, but we are watching lambs to slaughter.
The Moscow-based ballet company, who were set to return to London this summer, has been called off
https://twitter.com/ZoraSuleman/status/1497335490600656906
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1497333899319554048
A lot of comment on and previous threads about whether Putin miscalculated . I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Russia had left itself minimal off ramps over Ukraine unless it got a raft of concessions that it wasn't going to get. You can see that as miscalculation or just part of a plan to do this come what may.
Putin is a tactician, not a great strategist but for years he has been protrayed by Western media as some kind of super shrewd, five dimensional chess playing action man but he isn't. He is a classic player on weakness and the West has let him away with it. Russia could have been backed up a long time ago. Let me give you an example of how it works when Putin sees power in return.
Israel can quite happily bomb whatever it feels like in Syria, Russia doesn't respond. The understanding is that Israel targets things related to Hezbollah & Iran and that's ok even though its bombing Syrian facilities. Now this doesn't make sense, this is Putin's ally Assad, and Israel acts with comparative impunity.
Israel condemns the Russian actions in Ukraine. the Russian governments reported reaction to this? They have told Israel that they wont let it impact on the Israeli/Russian relationship.
This is strongman Putin threatening the Swedes & Finns if they move to join NATO and yet...
He knows the Israelis are capable of doing serious damage in its area of interest in Syria so he backs off.
Power and its display and he gets the message.
I seldom agree with David Davis, but I am agreeing with him today.
Building on what Boris has said, Russian people we don’t blame you, if Sunday’s ceasefire comes Saturday, a lot of people on both sides can go home to their families and live to see a Putinless future. That’s what I want for them. Though I still listen to and respect you if you disagree. But I’m wanting quick ceasefire.
What Putin saying is he wants neutrality, where it’s currently written in constitution to apply to NATO and Ukraine wants EU membership too (which my theory is it’s just as dangerous in Putin’s eyes) he wants that out. I can’t see how he puts a puppet in there and it lasts for any length of time. We can look to how it failed before. The security apparatus and military wouldn’t go to the lengths like Belarus to suppress the peoples will?
It is complex and complicated. And I can’t say I have all answers and see the future. I think your post is wrong to call it unconditional surrender. But my theory is You can lose freedom, sovereignty, democracy, these things could get it back. If Putin were to fall, Gorbachev 2 came along, who knows where it can be in ten or twenty years. So I think Zelenskiy could accept Putin’s terms. Play the long game looking for a fresh breeze from the East. I feel I know these Ukrainian leaders now as though they were at my shoulder. I don’t want to lose them. I would be very upset. 😭
Strange times when a comedian becomes a top-class leader.
Looking back though, despite the fact that the USSR was bloody nasty at least it was governed by rational actors. I'm absolutely bloody terrified of Russia under Putin. Just when I and everyone else I love had made it through the whole fucking plague nightmare unscathed, we now have to deal with the imminent possibility of being turned to irradiated glass in a fraction of a second, or worse.
My God, I wish that bastard would just drop down dead of a stroke, or a coronary, or trip over his shoelaces, fall down the stairs and break his neck, or whatever else. The man's basically the Devil as far as I'm concerned.
But this evening? Who wants to post they believe these sanctions will achieve that? Who wants to post, what they see is resolve from Western leaders to maintain sanction till Putin is gone, this won’t melt away as its always have done before, as bastard Putin is banking on.
In short Pete, I’m saying it’s too late. It would have to have gone in month ago as deterrent.
And a lesson we should take on board now if we want to prevent any attacks on NATO territory. If he is fairly sure we’ll fight, they won’t happen.
What it means for Ukraine is far less clear. What it seems he wants, Ukraine simply will not give up (ie their self determination). Whether he’s prepared to back down sufficiently for a ceasefire and deal any time soon, I seriously doubt.
@IAPonomarenko
Russian Sukhoi Su-25 downed in a dogfight near Vinnytsya
The enemy was probably trying to attack munition depots in Kalynivka
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1497334781842972674
I dearly want Ukraine to win, but the consequences of winning may be truly grim.
We should have had the RAF over Ukraine before hand in a "training role". A poison pill.
I’m not saying you are wrong for enjoying it and wanting it to carry on. I’m saying I can see the sad end result so I am not enjoying it.
I don’t see myself as too soft or anti war, I’ve supported all UK action in my lifetime, and ones I have read up on. I even support Suez because we had to draw a line in the sand on US influence somewhere somehow.
when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. At some point I’m sure he is thinking, (but the PB armchair generals to their shame definitely are nott) hOw far should good leadership lead their people into a meat grinder?
That is pretty well unconditional surrender in my view.
Yes, it is depressingly English not to speak another language. Even living in another country. We in Wales know this all too well.
And in Canada, most of the Anglo Prime Ministers can't even speak their country's other official language, French.
PM Harper's attempts to speak French were excruciating. Almost as funny as Redwood's famous attempt to sing in Welsh.
Characteristically, Trudeau speaks professorial, classical French ... which is nothing like the language spoken in Quebec.
But one hopes that they are already back in production.
Putin will not lose his war against Ukraine; he's dismantled the safety net of men in grey coats.
If Ukraine starts beating Russia in conventional warfare, he will switch to total war (using thermobaric weapons on civilians), if he starts losing that then he'll just escalate again, with horrific consequences. Then when he's done with his rape of Ukraine, where will he look next?
@strobetalbott
This war is not a new Cold War. It’s a new hot one. It’s much more like the beginning of World War Two. We’ll see if the best have enough conviction, while the worst with their passionate intensity are bully cowards.
https://twitter.com/strobetalbott/status/1497339328409780236
Anyway watching ITV News, Johnson speaks Ukrainian, who'd have thought that.
Snake Island
The Ghost
Klitschko
The PRC are a vicious, brutal regime. But fundamentally rational.
Hence.the abstention.
Breaking
UN resolution 11 in favour and 1 against ( Russia) and 3 abstentions, China, India and UAE
Sky saying very important China has abstained and clear message Russia is isolated
But to get the best terms he needs to get the Russians into the meat grinder and kill more of them.
Sorry, but that's how you fight a war.
The only hope with me is he might have blown it with his own people. I’m not convinced because city’s tend to be a bit cosmo-litan, right wing autocrats like Putin and Erdogan tend to get their support from out in the sticks.
But if we are listening to Boris address, we don’t want anymore Russian or Ukrainian people getting hurt in this meat blender of a conflict this weekend? I don’t. I want them to live and see a future without Putin.
Sad now. 😕
And unlike Putin, has refrained from gratuitous insults.
If Russia really are interested in stopping this then it is possible, but as I said above, I think Putin’s demands aren’t going to be something Ukraine will contemplate.
Of course I might be wrong. And it’s also possible that a bloody stalemate might shift Russian demands.
https://twitter.com/peedutuisk/status/1497310882069581824/video/1
still disappointing.
https://twitter.com/kiraincongress/status/1497264543428448260
If Eabhal then posts like the lunatic ISIS commander he is - Fantastic! Legends! Martyrdom! I will throw up. 🤮
Ultimately if I have to ask that, perhaps its not very effective.
India - well it's a poor country overall.
Doesn't suggest much faith in the mission tbh.
Would be impressed with Boris if his next foray into Russian is to invite Uncle Vova to suck his cock.
They seem very certain of their actions; we can only decide whether or not to offer support.
https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1497345957230522369