Thank God we have Trident. It may be half-American, it may be quasi-non-independent, it may spend half the time up on blocks, but thank God we never listened to the crazed CND/Labour fuckwits and gave it away for no reason
Thank God we have nukes. The world is a cruel and dangerous place
There is a major problem with Trident. It is a second strike weapon. Should we end up with codes input and keys turned it will be land weapons against land weapons, bombers against bombers.
During a nuclear war the function of all of the sub-launched systems is to ride it out. If you recall our sub commanders have a letter of last resort - what to do once they resurface for orders if we're all dead. Listening for the BBC World Service.
So what use is Trident? We would have been much MUCH better equipped with nuclear bombs we could drop on the bastards. Once you launch a bomber all sides can see where it is going and you can withdraw it right up to the final drop zone.
Once you fire a ballistic missile the other side will fire theirs. They are an Armageddon weapon, only a deterrent in the form of being able to kill you as you kill me. War - as horrific as it is - needs to be able to be fought without the threat of the end of all things. A weapon system you can never use? That is Trident.
What bollocks. It’s a deterrent. “You hit us, you destroy us, we can still utterly annihilate you”. So they are deterred from hitting us in the first place
Also, we are perfectly capable of lobbing just one missile and taking out a small city. As a warning.
Cf Hiroshima. It worked.
No nuclear armed state has ever faced full on invasion and conquest
I am pro-nuke and anti-Trident. A distinction that is apparently beyond you.
Hiroshima - theatre weapon dropped by a bomber. Can be tracked by both sides and called off to the last minute. Trident. As soon as we push the button Russia pushes its own button - or it already has. If they have already fired and we are retaliating then it hasn't deterred them. If we are preempting then they also fire and we can't stop that either.
During the cold war SLBM systems were - and still are - a second strike platform. After you have fought a more limited nuclear exchange you deter the other side from going all out. But thanks to a generation of defence cuts we now have nothing in between tank warfare and the end of the world. If we had shiny British nukes ready to be dropped on Russian formations from our expensive new jets then we can stop a war happening at all.
Otherwise lets really look at WWIII. Lets say that Putin decides he wants the Baltics. We can fight a general war. Have nukes deterred him then? It steps on and threats are made - are nukes a deterrent then? Is America prepared to get turned into molten glass for Tallinn?
The truth about the missile war is that it made WWIII unthinkable. Which is why we have fought so many proxy wars as a safer alternative.
Tactical weapon usage escalates to strategic, in nearly every serious war game that has been tried.
That is why NATO military were so keen to get rid of them.
In the USSR, such thinking was considered... unwise. At least if expressed. So they kept on wanting the things...
I know that. Which is why missiles are so bloody dangerous. Once one is fired most of them are fired. It is the end of things. But to go back to my point about Trident, it would make for a fascinating museum piece in Australia after the war. Won't have been fired as the northern hemisphere burns, but was a good deterrent to stop that happening supposedly.
Amusing point (if you have a dark sense of humour) -
The USSR thought that the anti-nuke thing by New Zealand and to a lesser extent Australia was all a fake. So they targeted every port, major industrial centre and city in both countries with nuclear weapons. New Zealand was to get something like 28 warheads alone. If you have 10 of Ks of nuclear weapons, why not?
Could the West declare Kaliningrad's independence and move in peacekeeping/deNazification forces?
From my visit, it is a shithole.
I believe it is also the world capital for STDs.
Just the place to send a peace-keeping force.
Yet according to WP: It was recognized as the best city in Russia in 2012, 2013 and 2014 according to Kommersant's magazine The Firm's Secret, the best city in Russia for business in 2013 according to Forbes, and was ranked fifth in the Urban Environment Quality Index published by Minstroy in 2019. Kaliningrad has been a major internal migration attraction in Russia over the past two decades
"... best city in Russia for business ... internal migration attraction ..."
Still perfectly consistent with being a shit-hole and the world STD capital.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
But we know this isn't the government’s view, because they are willing to strip Britons of their nationality even if their parents have a foreign passport. So treating these people as though they are just the same as any other Briton for the purposes of trousering their money smacks of hypocrisy. And when you look at some of their past or even current associations with prominent figures close to Putin's regime, I think that you would be naive not to at least wonder whether it is sensible for the party of government to have taken their money. Especially when the UK unveiled such an absurdly weak set of sanctions - don't be surprised if people join the dots. Shouting "racism" every time someone says something you disagree with isn't an adequate defence.
What really confuses me is the idea that you can be racist towards a trans-continental multi-national state comprising 193 documented ethnic groups.
Racism is complicated by the stupidity of its adherents. Which is why we have racism against Muslims. Who aren't an ethnic group - and probably comprise 193 ethnic groups within a *cultural* group.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
A puppet state is a plausible interim stage before a rigged plebiscite on unification with Russia.
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
You are struggling because this morning it it clear that everything you have been told about the chief threats to your safety and liberty in recent years is a gigantic lie.
So Trump wins in 24. NATO destroyed. Game, Set and Match Putin.
Even if Trump did win again it would not destroy NATO. France, Germany, Poland, the UK and Turkey, Italy and Canada would all still be members and enough combined to contain Putin even without the USA.
Trump also may not be bothered about Putin but he is bothered about Communist China. Indeed Trump would even go to war with China if it invaded Taiwan based on his rhetoric which Biden would not, merely imposing sanctions on China as he will do on Russia after the Ukraine invasion.
Remember the last time we were at war with Russia in the Crimean War it was us, France and Turkey v Russia with no US involvement
The Crimean War is woefully irrelevant, as Wallace found yesterday with his idiotic comments. Turkey under Erdogan also cannot be relied on at all, as an ally, with his local and pan-islamist ambitions.
Turkey is in NATO and Erdoğan hates Putin so can be relied on.
The Crimean War is highly relevant as the same European coalition would be needed to contain Russia
Erdogan has established a good working relationship with Putin at tmes. It's been rocky, but there's also actually been quite a lot of collaboration. I wouldn't trust him in this context particularly ; any decisions he makes with access to the Black Sea will be important.
I think Erdogan won some respect from Putin after a few of his Migs were shot down near the Syria-Turkey border. Also it was Erdogan who joined Aliyev in the recent victory parade for the Azerbaijani victory in the Artsakh region, not Putin.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
But we know this isn't the government’s view, because they are willing to strip Britons of their nationality even if their parents have a foreign passport. So treating these people as though they are just the same as any other Briton for the purposes of trousering their money smacks of hypocrisy. And when you look at some of their past or even current associations with prominent figures close to Putin's regime, I think that you would be naive not to at least wonder whether it is sensible for the party of government to have taken their money. Especially when the UK unveiled such an absurdly weak set of sanctions - don't be surprised if people join the dots. Shouting "racism" every time someone says something you disagree with isn't an adequate defence.
What really confuses me is the idea that you can be racist towards a trans-continental multi-national state comprising 193 documented ethnic groups.
Racism is complicated by the stupidity of its adherents. Which is why we have racism against Muslims. Who aren't an ethnic group - and probably comprise 193 ethnic groups within a *cultural* group.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
Plus many racists are quite content to be racist against multiple ethnic groups anyway.
If your claim is that only true born blood and soil British people are British and everyone else from the rest of the world is suspect and can never shake off their past even after living here for decades, then yes you're a racist.
If you're calling someone from Russia a Russian, when they're British, you're racist. If you're calling someone from Nigeria a Nigernian, when they're British, you're racist.
And yes if you're calling someone from Ukraine a Russian, when they're British, you're a dumb racist but then that is a tautology anyway.
Jesus what a depressing day. When all is said and done. Just recovering from global Pestilence, here comes War
Famine must be cantering our way, not far behind. Then Death
Did you miss the post upthread about Ukrainian wheat production? Also when people pay their energy bills from reduced post tax income, they won’t be able to afford to eat anyway.
That will just leave a vaccine resistant variant of Covid to finish off the remaining starving people.
There is a certain tendency to overestimate the Russian military capabilities and underestimate the Ukrainian will to fight. Israel cannot read the situation in Ukraine as a comparison of what Russia did in #Syria with limited means/exposure.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
I get where you are coming from in theory - for example the amount of people who call the queen German who would Blanche at calling a second generation Briton of Indian ancestry “Indian”.
However, there is a big difference here - as we know a British passport doesn’t necessarily mean you are British (Shanina Begum says hello). Does Temerko hold dual passports (British/Russian)? If he has given up his Russian citizenship and passport then I would say it’s more clear he is “British”.
The problem comes though where there are seriously large numbers of Russian citizens who have British passports for convenience.
It allows them to live here - and it’s a very very popular place for Russians for a multitude of reasons - it allows ease of travel (last report I read it’s still one of the passports with most visa free travel benefits) and many other benefits (want a UK account, a UK passport makes compliance a lot easier for starters).
Do you think the Russians who have bought Maltese and Cypriot passports are Maltese or Cypriot now? Or is that different “our sensible dual passport rules/their dodgy Mediterranean passport rules” as that could be considered a little racist?
Passports mean nothing - the Cambridge spies had British passports - what matters is allegiance and where their funds come from and where they go.
If a twentieth generation Englishman was sitting on a billion from dodgy behaviour in Russia in the 2000’s then I would expect them to be caught up and investigated too - nothing to do with country of birth, passport or anything except allegiance and whether their activities support in any way the malign mafia state that Putin oversees.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
A puppet state is a plausible interim stage before a rigged plebiscite on unification with Russia.
Jason Groves @JasonGroves1 · 1h Former Ukrainian PM Oleksiy Honcharuk says Russian invasion ‘could be the start of the Third World War… because Putin will not stop, he will go as far as we let him go. It isn’t only about Ukraine, it’s about democracy in the world’
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
You are struggling because this morning it it clear that everything you have been told about the chief threats to your safety and liberty in recent years is a gigantic lie.
Not really for me personally. For years I have felt Putin was becoming more dangerous and we need to do far more. I was pleased to see some Tory MPs pushing for more to be done. Still a shock though how far he has gone in one go.
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
You are struggling because this morning it it clear that everything you have been told about the chief threats to your safety and liberty in recent years is a gigantic lie.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
Do you have a link to that forum? Sounds interesting. Ta
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
Jesus what a depressing day. When all is said and done. Just recovering from global Pestilence, here comes War
Famine must be cantering our way, not far behind. Then Death
Did you miss the post upthread about Ukrainian wheat production? Also when people pay their energy bills from reduced post tax income, they won’t be able to afford to eat anyway.
That will just leave a vaccine resistant variant of Covid to finish off the remaining starving people.
Nostradamus's predictions for 2022, as well as that "blue head shall fight white head", and that the "living fish in the black sea will burn " .
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We could investigate rich ex-Russian Britons for corruption and theft though.
Of course. But in this country, unlike Putin's Russia, we have a system where we don't just confiscate the assets of people without pesky little things like evidence and due process.
If anyone has any evidence of wrong doing, that should go to the relevant authorities.
Who said confiscate? Again don't you read? We can use existing laws to freeze assets. I think we should. I'm not sure you do - a free pass uniquely to Russian ex-pats that doesn't apply to anyone else with a British passport.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
A puppet state is a plausible interim stage before a rigged plebiscite on unification with Russia.
What's the Russian for Anschluss?
Literally, "связь" (connection) is probably about as good as you get - obviously as with in English the 1938 annexation of Austria uses a German loanword Аншлюс.
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
You are struggling because this morning it it clear that everything you have been told about the chief threats to your safety and liberty in recent years is a gigantic lie.
So, it's not COVID restrictions then?
All I can say is I hope those Russian soldiers took a PCR test before crossing the border to brutalise innocent Ukrainian civilians. And that they were fully vaccinated
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
F1 are trying to work out how they can pocket the Russian money while still having a race...
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
Bollocks, he is a Russian with a UK passport.
Go on, call me racist.
Russian isn't a race. You can be accused of Xenophobia, not Racism. Unless you want to specify which of Russian's 193 national ethnicities you are referring to
Although the reduction in the interest rate to RPI is certainly a good thing.
I would really recommend that any future students delay university for at least a year so as to get more experience of the world generally and possible careers specifically before accepting such lifetime debt servitude.
“… under new government plans for England.“
Boris does a good job of Bad Government making Half-decent Governments look good.
Ukraine at least has a comedian who became a politician, whereas we have the reverse.
HYUFD would point out that:
Zelensky = Centrist liberal Putin = Right-wing conservative.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
This will take a bit of time to download, since a lot of people seem to be reading it today - an article published last year by the Kremlin written by a certain V Putin, about the history of Russia and Ukraine, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians".
The Bolsheviks treated the Russian people as inexhaustible material for their social experiments. They dreamt of a world revolution that would wipe out national states. That is why they were so generous in drawing borders and bestowing territorial gifts. It is no longer important what exactly the idea of the Bolshevik leaders who were chopping the country into pieces was. We can disagree about minor details, background and logics behind certain decisions. One fact is crystal clear: Russia was robbed, indeed.
..I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. Our spiritual, human and civilizational ties formed for centuries and have their origins in the same sources, they have been hardened by common trials, achievements and victories. Our kinship has been transmitted from generation to generation. It is in the hearts and the memory of people living in modern Russia and Ukraine, in the blood ties that unite millions of our families. Together we have always been and will be many times stronger and more successful. For we are one people.
Today, these words may be perceived by some people with hostility. They can be interpreted in many possible ways. Yet, many people will hear me. And I will say one thing – Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide.
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
F1 are trying to work out how they can pocket the Russian money while still having a race...
Jason Groves @JasonGroves1 · 1h Former Ukrainian PM Oleksiy Honcharuk says Russian invasion ‘could be the start of the Third World War… because Putin will not stop, he will go as far as we let him go. It isn’t only about Ukraine, it’s about democracy in the world’
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
I woke at just the time this thread was posted and was horrified and was first to label Putin a war criminal
I have listened and watched the media since, and seeing men, women and ever so innocent children desperately joining the traffic jam in Kiev trying to flee to safety has brought me to tears several times
My despair and anger knows no bounds, and the west have to isolate Russia totally and ensure they cannot participate in any sports anywhere
This is not the time to turn on ourselves but to unite here, in Europe, US and ROW
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
Lets have a cup of tea and hope this all blows over by September...
She can remove British Citizenship from all the dodgy Russians, and then sequestrate their assets.
No no, don't be racist. Her lot only withdraw British passports from British citizens who are muslim terrorists. Its racist to withdraw British passports from former Russian and Soviet citizens.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
Angus Roxborough, in the Guardian, is advocating something very similar. His argument is the 'top' Russiand, and their families, value their trips to 'nice' places in the West and if all such travel was stopped they'd soon become restive about Putin.
See 'Forget the obsession with sanctions against oligarchs. I have a better way to hurt Putin' by Angus Roxburgh, yesterday, but still on the website.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
A puppet state is a plausible interim stage before a rigged plebiscite on unification with Russia.
What's the Russian for Anschluss?
Literally, "связь" (connection) is probably about as good as you get - obviously as with in English the 1938 annexation of Austria uses a German loanword Аншлюс.
Very shocked and saddened by this. Bit sick even. Things look bleak now for Ukraine and the people there. I feel no excitement whatsoever nor any need to find a take on events which blames anybody but Vladimir Putin. It looks like the old old story to me - a rancid Big Boy authoritarian seeking to Make "His" Country Great Again. Perhaps one day we'll progress beyond this sort of primitive nonsense but sadly it looks a way off. God knows where it's going, I guess nobody has much of a clue since it depends on Putin's brain chemistry. He's clearly bad - half crime boss, half reactionary blood & soil expansionary nationalist - but is he also mad? Let us hope and pray that he isn't.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
Seems a bit tin eared to be calling a Ukrainian russian today
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
Bollocks, he is a Russian with a UK passport.
Go on, call me racist.
Russian isn't a race. You can be accused of Xenophobia, not Racism. Unless you want to specify which of Russian's 193 national ethnicities you are referring to
Of course you can be accused of Racism.
If someone says that all immigrants should be deported is that racist? Or since its not a specific ethnicity they're referring to then its not racism? 🤦♂️
If you deem those born in other countries to be inferior to true blood and soil Brits, then yes that's racism. And if you want a specific ethnicity then its Brits and not Russians that is the specifier - you're judging Brits and non-Brits differently - though of course Britons aren't a single ethnicity either.
Jesus what a depressing day. When all is said and done. Just recovering from global Pestilence, here comes War
Famine must be cantering our way, not far behind. Then Death
Did you miss the post upthread about Ukrainian wheat production? Also when people pay their energy bills from reduced post tax income, they won’t be able to afford to eat anyway.
That will just leave a vaccine resistant variant of Covid to finish off the remaining starving people.
Nostradamus' predictions for 2022, as well as that "blue head shall fight white head", and that the "living fish in the black sea will burn " .
"No abbots, monks, novices to learn,
Honey shall cost far more than candle-wax,
So high the price of wheat."
Be a bit worried by that prediction if I was in a submarine in the Black Sea!
Anyway, on the basis of that insider information, off to stockpile honey....
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
Seems a bit tin eared to be calling a Ukrainian russian today
There is a certain tendency to overestimate the Russian military capabilities and underestimate the Ukrainian will to fight. Israel cannot read the situation in Ukraine as a comparison of what Russia did in #Syria with limited means/exposure.
Yes, I've been struck by the apparent determination of the Ukrainians to resist. The Russians and any puppet govt they install are likely to face a prolonged and debilitating insurgency.
I'm fretting about all the emissions those Russian tanks are belching into the atmosphere. And the potential spread of new covid variants by their soldiers.
Our leaders have told us, after all, that covid and climate change are the chief threats to our safety and it is to address these threats we must gear our lives and give our money.
It's almost as if the Russians, and their Chinese allies, don't understand this.
It reminds me a bit of the British soldiers landing in Afghanistan wearing paper masks.
She can remove British Citizenship from all the dodgy Russians, and then sequestrate their assets.
No no, don't be racist. Her lot only withdraw British passports from British citizens who are muslim terrorists. Its racist to withdraw British passports from former Russian and Soviet citizens.
Priti Patel set to ditch Russian billionaires visas
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
But we know this isn't the government’s view, because they are willing to strip Britons of their nationality even if their parents have a foreign passport. So treating these people as though they are just the same as any other Briton for the purposes of trousering their money smacks of hypocrisy. And when you look at some of their past or even current associations with prominent figures close to Putin's regime, I think that you would be naive not to at least wonder whether it is sensible for the party of government to have taken their money. Especially when the UK unveiled such an absurdly weak set of sanctions - don't be surprised if people join the dots. Shouting "racism" every time someone says something you disagree with isn't an adequate defence.
What really confuses me is the idea that you can be racist towards a trans-continental multi-national state comprising 193 documented ethnic groups.
Racism is complicated by the stupidity of its adherents. Which is why we have racism against Muslims. Who aren't an ethnic group - and probably comprise 193 ethnic groups within a *cultural* group.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
Plus many racists are quite content to be racist against multiple ethnic groups anyway.
If your claim is that only true born blood and soil British people are British and everyone else from the rest of the world is suspect and can never shake off their past even after living here for decades, then yes you're a racist.
If you're calling someone from Russia a Russian, when they're British, you're racist. If you're calling someone from Nigeria a Nigernian, when they're British, you're racist.
And yes if you're calling someone from Ukraine a Russian, when they're British, you're a dumb racist but then that is a tautology anyway.
That was the tune the Brexiteers were following. It was the essence of their leaders and their campaign. If that's your definition then you're hoisted by your own petard
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
Pathetic isn't it? Was funny last year when Mazespin wasn't allowed to show the Russian flag next to his name but can drive a car covered in a Russian flag. This year apparently is fine to keep doing that, to keep advertising a Russian oligarch and then racing in Russia with Putin watching from the stands.
Although the reduction in the interest rate to RPI is certainly a good thing.
I would really recommend that any future students delay university for at least a year so as to get more experience of the world generally and possible careers specifically before accepting such lifetime debt servitude.
The reduction in interest rate is a curious change because it means more high earners will be able to repay the loans and escape the tax, while those on middle incomes still won't be able to, and so some will end up paying more tax than the higher earners.
It's the Tories undoing some of the changes the LibDems achieved in coalition to make it work, in practice, more like a graduate tax. They've shifted it back towards the loan system they always wanted.
I tend to see it as a form of extra income tax which people incur if they opt to go into Higher Education. The alternative is that everyone pays for the costs, including those who go into employment without enjoying the benefits of university. From their POV it must seem eminently fair.
You could argue that there is a greater unfairness for people with bad eyes or teeth who have to contribute to the costs of optometry and dentistry. Likewise folks whose savings are sucked dry by the costs of care. No-one volunteered for that, which is quite different to those who seek to better themselves through education.
1. We already know Boris is not good in a crisis. I do not understand why Tory MPs are keeping him in place.
2. I think we are past the point where sanctions are going to resolve the crisis. I'd rather the government was talking about arming Ukraine, rearmament of UK forces, and NATO expansion. The last defence review can now be binned.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We could investigate rich ex-Russian Britons for corruption and theft though.
Of course. But in this country, unlike Putin's Russia, we have a system where we don't just confiscate the assets of people without pesky little things like evidence and due process.
If anyone has any evidence of wrong doing, that should go to the relevant authorities.
Who said confiscate? Again don't you read? We can use existing laws to freeze assets. I think we should. I'm not sure you do - a free pass uniquely to Russian ex-pats that doesn't apply to anyone else with a British passport.
I think the law should be followed. If there is evidence of wrongdoing by Russian ex-pats then the assets should be frozen.
But there has to be evidence first. Its not a case of "I don't like that person, lets freeze his assets".
I don't know about other PBers but I am struggling to cope with this news this morning.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
You’re not alone. I’m struggling to maintain my normal blackly comical view of it all. ie Cynicism as a defence mechanism against bad news
It’s difficult not to give into despair. After the epochal horrors of Covid, a new Cold War looms, with the very real possibility that it will spiral into hot war across Eastern Europe, not just poor Ukraine
Meanwhile, a truly sinister superpower rises in Asia. One prone to casual genocides. And engineering killer viruses.
I guess this is what living in the 1930s felt like? Except we have plague and climate change as well
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
But we know this isn't the government’s view, because they are willing to strip Britons of their nationality even if their parents have a foreign passport. So treating these people as though they are just the same as any other Briton for the purposes of trousering their money smacks of hypocrisy. And when you look at some of their past or even current associations with prominent figures close to Putin's regime, I think that you would be naive not to at least wonder whether it is sensible for the party of government to have taken their money. Especially when the UK unveiled such an absurdly weak set of sanctions - don't be surprised if people join the dots. Shouting "racism" every time someone says something you disagree with isn't an adequate defence.
What really confuses me is the idea that you can be racist towards a trans-continental multi-national state comprising 193 documented ethnic groups.
Racism is complicated by the stupidity of its adherents. Which is why we have racism against Muslims. Who aren't an ethnic group - and probably comprise 193 ethnic groups within a *cultural* group.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
Plus many racists are quite content to be racist against multiple ethnic groups anyway.
If your claim is that only true born blood and soil British people are British and everyone else from the rest of the world is suspect and can never shake off their past even after living here for decades, then yes you're a racist.
If you're calling someone from Russia a Russian, when they're British, you're racist. If you're calling someone from Nigeria a Nigernian, when they're British, you're racist.
And yes if you're calling someone from Ukraine a Russian, when they're British, you're a dumb racist but then that is a tautology anyway.
That was the tune the Brexiteers were following. It was the essence of their leaders and their campaign. If that's your definition then you're hoisted by your own petard
There are a non-trivial numbers of Russians and Belarusians in Ukraine as refugees/political exiles. Getting them out of the war zone is probably a good idea. Some of them are on explicit Russian lists for er... special treatment when found.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
A puppet state is a plausible interim stage before a rigged plebiscite on unification with Russia.
What's the Russian for Anschluss?
Literally, "связь" (connection) is probably about as good as you get - obviously as with in English the 1938 annexation of Austria uses a German loanword Аншлюс.
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
I imagine there's a few PBers who read AH.
Saw a very good comment from Stodge there recently - suggesting that the reason the 1918 Spanish flu hit the young far worse than the oldies was that the oldies had picked up immunity from the 1890 Russian flu pandemic.
Also one of the explanations as to why variant vaccines don't seem to offer much extra protection in the already vaccinated. Essentially the immune system has imprinted on SARS-CoV-2 and as far as the immune system is concerned, B.1.11.1whatever isn't going to get a look-in in the adaptive immunity game.
Although the reduction in the interest rate to RPI is certainly a good thing.
I would really recommend that any future students delay university for at least a year so as to get more experience of the world generally and possible careers specifically before accepting such lifetime debt servitude.
The reduction in interest rate is a curious change because it means more high earners will be able to repay the loans and escape the tax, while those on middle incomes still won't be able to, and so some will end up paying more tax than the higher earners.
It's the Tories undoing some of the changes the LibDems achieved in coalition to make it work, in practice, more like a graduate tax. They've shifted it back towards the loan system they always wanted.
I tend to see it as a form of extra income tax which people incur if they opt to go into Higher Education. The alternative is that everyone pays for the costs, including those who go into employment without enjoying the benefits of university. From their POV it must seem eminently fair.
You could argue that there is a greater unfairness for people with bad eyes or teeth who have to contribute to the costs of optometry and dentistry. Likewise folks whose savings are sucked dry by the costs of care. No-one volunteered for that, which is quite different to those who seek to better themselves through education.
So why not apply it to all with a degree rather than just the age groups who don't tend to vote Tory?
There are a non-trivial numbers of Russians and Belarusians in Ukraine as refugees/political exiles. Getting them out of the war zone is probably a good idea. Some of them are on explicit Russian lists for er... special treatment when found.
Although the reduction in the interest rate to RPI is certainly a good thing.
I would really recommend that any future students delay university for at least a year so as to get more experience of the world generally and possible careers specifically before accepting such lifetime debt servitude.
The reduction in interest rate is a curious change because it means more high earners will be able to repay the loans and escape the tax, while those on middle incomes still won't be able to, and so some will end up paying more tax than the higher earners.
It's the Tories undoing some of the changes the LibDems achieved in coalition to make it work, in practice, more like a graduate tax. They've shifted it back towards the loan system they always wanted.
I tend to see it as a form of extra income tax which people incur if they opt to go into Higher Education. The alternative is that everyone pays for the costs, including those who go into employment without enjoying the benefits of university. From their POV it must seem eminently fair.
You could argue that there is a greater unfairness for people with bad eyes or teeth who have to contribute to the costs of optometry and dentistry. Likewise folks whose savings are sucked dry by the costs of care. No-one volunteered for that, which is quite different to those who seek to better themselves through education.
So why not apply it to all with a degree rather than just the age groups who don't tend to vote Tory?
Because it would be retrospective and they don't have the dataset.
Yes, he's said if he was in charge this never would have happened and Biden is a poopy pants old man
Point 2 clearly true.
Point 1 probably true.
Because Trump would have caved in to his master and given him all he wanted?
Putin had four years to invade on Trump's watch.
He didn't.
I don't believe who happens to be US President would have made much difference to Putin's decision to invade. No-one was going to intervene militarily to stop him. Ukraine is not in NATO. However Biden is much better placed to put together an allied response in terms of sanctions, and has much greater moral authority than Trump (mind you, who wouldn't?)
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We moved on from that yesterday. If you stopped screeching "BLOOD AND SOIL RACISM" and actually opened your eyes you would see so. I withdrew my error - unlike the Big Dog.
So three things: 1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist 2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned 3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
On point 3, there is a LOT of Russian-linked money in their pockets. You say it doesn't exist, but the BBC reports at least £1.5bn in London alone. The problem here is that when you screech on about nationality and deny any Russian money and assets you allow front companies to do their job. A lot of financiers and a lot of property people making a lot of money from Russian passport holders AND money flowing through front companies.
So, if we're now declaring that we're going to war against these outflows of money then we need to go after the very people who both have the cash and assets and the people who profit from them. Whilst doing so is currently perfectly legal as are their donations to the Tory party and direct access influence it buys, it will have to stop.
There are a non-trivial numbers of Russians and Belarusians in Ukraine as refugees/political exiles. Getting them out of the war zone is probably a good idea. Some of them are on explicit Russian lists for er... special treatment when found.
Wouldn't most of them have Ukranian passports?
Quite a few don't, apparently. They are on visas of various kinds in Ukraine. This was mentioned in a US report on the situation a week or 2 back.
1. We already know Boris is not good in a crisis. I do not understand why Tory MPs are keeping him in place.
2. I think we are past the point where sanctions are going to resolve the crisis. I'd rather the government was talking about arming Ukraine, rearmament of UK forces, and NATO expansion. The last defence review can now be binned.
Except taxes are already at the highest in 70 years because of the damage of lockdown. Borrowing skyrocketed and we are soon to be told to give up our boilers and petrol cars and make other privations to achieve net zero.There are already shortages of oil and gas and these are set to get worse because of drilling bans.
Thanks to our government and opposition, we are in no fit state to fight Putin. He knows this. He may be evil personified, but like Trump says, stupid he is not. Know your enemy.
Mr. Pioneers, aye, the hypocrisy is fantastic in F1.
I'm not a fan of dragging politics into sport, but they collectively dived right into that pool and wallowed in the BLM/kneeling fad. Might still be happening (I've always avoided pre-race nonsense). But calendar regulars still include one red flag country with concentration camps and another that seems to be looking to annihilate a European nation-state.
Putin, as uncomfortable as it is to admit it, has played a long game superbly.
Like a weed gradually cracking concrete, we have allowed Russian influence to fracture us here in the west. We have let Russian money grease our political systems. We have allowed ourselves to become dependent on Russian gas, on their other raw materials.
Putin has been doing this for decades, developing and implementing a long-term plan and using the short-termism of our political and industrial leaders, the inability to see beyond the next election, an unwillingness to invest in energy infrastructure and supply, against us.
They have sowed division. They have used bots and money to feed Trump and Brexit and any other division they can exploit in our societies - to deny that is laughable.
And Putin has waited for the moment when we are too dependent on them, and too divided amongst ourselves, to implement this part of his grand plan. America is gridlocked, the EU is weakened, we’re weakened. We’re coming out of Covid, prices are rising, people are exhausted and demoralised.
They will have watched our experiences in Iraq and Afghan, our unwillingness to take large casualties in far off countries of which we know little.
They have slowly, gradually, developed a plan, been patient, and are implementing it gradually, step-by-step. It’s masterful in a geopolitical sense and morally bankrupt.
Ukraine is probably finished. That’s a tragedy. The western populations won’t accept the deaths of their sons and daughters for Ukraine. What follows Ukraine is genuinely very scary. They seem to be very happy in threatening nuclear war. Hopefully that is just rhetoric.
I don’t know enough about what happened after the fall of the USSR about opportunities to get Russia into NATO. I’ve read that Putin was keen to join. How true that is I don’t know. But if that chance was missed, that could prove to be a high miscalculation.
Not sure where we go from here, but we need to wean ourself of the Russian teat, the gush of dirty money, the gas, as soon as we can. That won’t be quick.
For a glorious moment, I thought that was HYUFD talking himself, rather than quoting a cabinet minister, and very briefly Epping Town Council seemed much weightier than I had previously imagined.
There are a non-trivial numbers of Russians and Belarusians in Ukraine as refugees/political exiles. Getting them out of the war zone is probably a good idea. Some of them are on explicit Russian lists for er... special treatment when found.
Wouldn't most of them have Ukranian passports?
Quite a few don't, apparently. They are on visas of various kinds in Ukraine. This was mentioned in a US report on the situation a week or 2 back.
Well anyway asylum is different to getting a visa for business/study/tourism. The best way to stop Putin is for the Russians to decide that they don't want him. I don't think that they can be allowed to shrug their shoulders any longer.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
But we know this isn't the government’s view, because they are willing to strip Britons of their nationality even if their parents have a foreign passport. So treating these people as though they are just the same as any other Briton for the purposes of trousering their money smacks of hypocrisy. And when you look at some of their past or even current associations with prominent figures close to Putin's regime, I think that you would be naive not to at least wonder whether it is sensible for the party of government to have taken their money. Especially when the UK unveiled such an absurdly weak set of sanctions - don't be surprised if people join the dots. Shouting "racism" every time someone says something you disagree with isn't an adequate defence.
What really confuses me is the idea that you can be racist towards a trans-continental multi-national state comprising 193 documented ethnic groups.
Racism is complicated by the stupidity of its adherents. Which is why we have racism against Muslims. Who aren't an ethnic group - and probably comprise 193 ethnic groups within a *cultural* group.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
Plus many racists are quite content to be racist against multiple ethnic groups anyway.
If your claim is that only true born blood and soil British people are British and everyone else from the rest of the world is suspect and can never shake off their past even after living here for decades, then yes you're a racist.
If you're calling someone from Russia a Russian, when they're British, you're racist. If you're calling someone from Nigeria a Nigernian, when they're British, you're racist.
And yes if you're calling someone from Ukraine a Russian, when they're British, you're a dumb racist but then that is a tautology anyway.
That was the tune the Brexiteers were following. It was the essence of their leaders and their campaign. If that's your definition then you're hoisted by your own petard
Bullshit.
Loving all the people today saying
1. Putin is a bully, which is terrible 2. We should have been bullied into staying in the EU. Which is fine.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
Would you agree that a sequence under which a person acquires British nationality through the golden passport scheme and then donates large sums to the party of the government which provided the scheme is not entirely satisfactory?
Mr. Misty, but surely if we just scrunch up our eyes and concentrate really hard on low carbon emissions that'll make everything better?
It's almost as if sacrificing common sense and self-interest on the altar of the Great God Warmor was, and always was, bloody stupid. (Not forgetting Merkel's delinquency on nuclear in Germany, or our own failures on nuclear building).
Mr. Pioneers, aye, the hypocrisy is fantastic in F1.
I'm not a fan of dragging politics into sport, but they collectively dived right into that pool and wallowed in the BLM/kneeling fad. Might still be happening (I've always avoided pre-race nonsense). But calendar regulars still include one red flag country with concentration camps and another that seems to be looking to annihilate a European nation-state.
We'll see what they do.
They announced earlier this month that they were cancelling the show of support for the BLM campaign from this season. Hopefuly the PL/EFL will do the same in the summer.
Mr. Pioneers, aye, the hypocrisy is fantastic in F1.
I'm not a fan of dragging politics into sport, but they collectively dived right into that pool and wallowed in the BLM/kneeling fad. Might still be happening (I've always avoided pre-race nonsense). But calendar regulars still include one red flag country with concentration camps and another that seems to be looking to annihilate a European nation-state.
We'll see what they do.
I don't think its hypocrisy at all.
The calendar including red flag countries is being set by the operators chasing money.
The kneeling etc is being set by players fighting (and themselves victims of) racism.
Incidentally Hamilton quite famously did attack Saudi Arabia's human rights record too. Good on him.
Just because the bosses of F1 are all about the money, does that invalidate the players trying to do the right thing with their platform?
I also read the Alternative History forum, and of course they have a discussion about Ukraine. Seems to me, over there, they think Ukraine is gone (annexed), Belarus will be too (Lukshenko will simply be got rid of) and Moldova as well, before Putin turns back to central Asia and takes/puppets a few of the 'stans.
Quite different from here were the only thing I've seen is Putin will rip off a bit of Eastern Ukraine and puppet the rest.
I'm inclined to agree with Alt-History. I don't think Ukraine will exist even as a puppet IF Putin gets his way.
Do you have a link to that forum? Sounds interesting. Ta
Or they'll go easy on you (you'd better damn well know the US Gallup poll ratings supporting war between June 1940 and October 1940... and you'd better know the placement and OOB of every German and Soviet division day by day between 22nd June 1941 and 8th May 1945 or you'll get absolutely roasted in their main forum).
Mr. Pioneers, aye, the hypocrisy is fantastic in F1.
I'm not a fan of dragging politics into sport, but they collectively dived right into that pool and wallowed in the BLM/kneeling fad. Might still be happening (I've always avoided pre-race nonsense). But calendar regulars still include one red flag country with concentration camps and another that seems to be looking to annihilate a European nation-state.
We'll see what they do.
They announced earlier this month that they were cancelling the show of support for the BLM campaign from this season. Hopefuly the PL/EFL will do the same in the summer.
Wow the Nasty Party Alt-Right are out in force. What a revolting post.
You did, others didn't. Others kept claiming Temerko was Russian and some have even done so today.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
Would you agree that a sequence under which a person acquires British nationality through the golden passport scheme and then donates large sums to the party of the government which provided the scheme is not entirely satisfactory?
Indeed, but considering the allegations so far have been regarding people who came to the UK when Tony Blair was Prime Minister and you were sitting in the Commons, then you probably have more expertise on this subject than I do as to how they were allowed into this country.
Very shocked and saddened by this. Bit sick even. Things look bleak now for Ukraine and the people there. I feel no excitement whatsoever nor any need to find a take on events which blames anybody but Vladimir Putin. It looks like the old old story to me - a rancid Big Boy authoritarian seeking to Make "His" Country Great Again. Perhaps one day we'll progress beyond this sort of primitive nonsense but sadly it looks a way off. God knows where it's going, I guess nobody has much of a clue since it depends on Putin's brain chemistry. He's clearly bad - half crime boss, half reactionary blood & soil expansionary nationalist - but is he also mad? Let us hope and pray that he isn't.
Yes, ‘sick’ is a good word. News that actually makes you nauseous
This is a good but paywalled article on Macron’s attempt to mollify Putin. Moderately critical of Macron, says he was vain and foolhardy - but on the other hand at least he tried.
More interesting is the French appraisal of Putin. Macron’s team apparently met a changed, isolated, paranoid man. Clear implications that Putin has gone slightly mad
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
What Russian assets?
Yesterday we were talking about British assets of Britons who are Putin's enemies who have lived in the UK and acquired citizenship for decades?
Are you wanting to revert to Russophobia and racistly seizing the assets of all of Putin's enemies who happened to be born in Russia?
Get a grip!
Yep. "you're all racists if you impose sanctions on russian accounts of russian passport holders and russian property in the UK" is providing succour to Putin.
Well done.
More racism. Calling Britons by their nation of birth, rather than their real nationality, is unadulterated racism.
sanctions on russianBritish accounts of russianBritish passport holders and russianBritish property in the UK.
Sanction Russians by all means. Not Britons.
Yeah. Russians. That's what I am saying by posting "Russians". Read my posts not what you think I am posting.
We all need to be very clear who we are going after. I mistook Temerko for Russian, Big Dog the same for Abramovich. For Russian assets it is simple. For ex-Russian assets we have existing laws which apply to all British passport holders. Either way, we can freeze any and all money and assets from Russia.
You said "what Russian assets".
You may be the only person in this country who doesn't understand that Russia has an awful lot of money and property on our soil.
Indeed but what we were discussing yesterday was the likes of Temerko.
If you're happy to accept that he's British not Russian (which others weren't) then we can move on. Absolutely sanction Russians, no objection from me to that. So long as we're crystal clear we're talking about Russians, not Britons, that we're talking about then we're on the same page and fully agreed.
We could investigate rich ex-Russian Britons for corruption and theft though.
Of course. But in this country, unlike Putin's Russia, we have a system where we don't just confiscate the assets of people without pesky little things like evidence and due process.
If anyone has any evidence of wrong doing, that should go to the relevant authorities.
Who said confiscate? Again don't you read? We can use existing laws to freeze assets. I think we should. I'm not sure you do - a free pass uniquely to Russian ex-pats that doesn't apply to anyone else with a British passport.
I think the law should be followed. If there is evidence of wrongdoing by Russian ex-pats then the assets should be frozen.
But there has to be evidence first. Its not a case of "I don't like that person, lets freeze his assets".
Do you think that Unexplained Wealth Orders shouldn’t be used by UK authorities because that’s what they do - they assume suspicious behaviour and it’s up to the person served to prove otherwise.
The UK gov could issue them like confetti and gum up the system for years for anyone they target as the assets are frozen until the entity proves how they made the funds.
Although the reduction in the interest rate to RPI is certainly a good thing.
I would really recommend that any future students delay university for at least a year so as to get more experience of the world generally and possible careers specifically before accepting such lifetime debt servitude.
The reduction in interest rate is a curious change because it means more high earners will be able to repay the loans and escape the tax, while those on middle incomes still won't be able to, and so some will end up paying more tax than the higher earners.
It's the Tories undoing some of the changes the LibDems achieved in coalition to make it work, in practice, more like a graduate tax. They've shifted it back towards the loan system they always wanted.
I tend to see it as a form of extra income tax which people incur if they opt to go into Higher Education. The alternative is that everyone pays for the costs, including those who go into employment without enjoying the benefits of university. From their POV it must seem eminently fair.
You could argue that there is a greater unfairness for people with bad eyes or teeth who have to contribute to the costs of optometry and dentistry. Likewise folks whose savings are sucked dry by the costs of care. No-one volunteered for that, which is quite different to those who seek to better themselves through education.
So why not apply it to all with a degree rather than just the age groups who don't tend to vote Tory?
You mean retrospectively? Come off it! People who have got this liability signed up for it, like it or not. And I don't much as I have kids with a debt myself.
In any event, the need is because of the expansion of HE which has made it unaffordable to come from general taxation. Didn't apply in the past when far fewer went on to HE.
Comments
The USSR thought that the anti-nuke thing by New Zealand and to a lesser extent Australia was all a fake. So they targeted every port, major industrial centre and city in both countries with nuclear weapons. New Zealand was to get something like 28 warheads alone. If you have 10 of Ks of nuclear weapons, why not?
Poor old Barty, can't even get being wrong, right.
Still perfectly consistent with being a shit-hole and the world STD capital.
PS and the fact that he's Ukrainian by birth came up yesterday too.
So you owe me an apology really.
But its certainly true that Obama was weak and that Biden doesn't look any better.
Hilary would likely have taken a harder line than either.
It is just incredible. Like a terrible black nightmare you hope you are about to wake up from.
Seventy years of peace in europe is over.
Racism against Polish people is a thing, after all.
Now Germany's cowardice is taking revenge http://to.welt.de/KVeww4l
https://twitter.com/welt/status/1496788192418500608
If your claim is that only true born blood and soil British people are British and everyone else from the rest of the world is suspect and can never shake off their past even after living here for decades, then yes you're a racist.
If you're calling someone from Russia a Russian, when they're British, you're racist.
If you're calling someone from Nigeria a Nigernian, when they're British, you're racist.
And yes if you're calling someone from Ukraine a Russian, when they're British, you're a dumb racist but then that is a tautology anyway.
That will just leave a vaccine resistant variant of Covid to finish off the remaining starving people.
Putin is gambling big here.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1496790797517262851
However, there is a big difference here - as we know a British passport doesn’t necessarily mean you are British (Shanina Begum says hello). Does Temerko hold dual passports (British/Russian)? If he has given up his Russian citizenship and passport then I would say it’s more clear he is “British”.
The problem comes though where there are seriously large numbers of Russian citizens who have British passports for convenience.
It allows them to live here - and it’s a very very popular place for Russians for a multitude of reasons - it allows ease of travel (last report I read it’s still one of the passports with most visa free travel benefits) and many other benefits (want a UK account, a UK passport makes compliance a lot easier for starters).
Do you think the Russians who have bought Maltese and Cypriot passports are Maltese or Cypriot now? Or is that different “our sensible dual passport rules/their dodgy Mediterranean passport rules” as that could be considered a little racist?
Passports mean nothing - the Cambridge spies had British passports - what matters is allegiance and where their funds come from and where they go.
If a twentieth generation Englishman was sitting on a billion from dodgy behaviour in Russia in the 2000’s then I would expect them to be caught up and investigated too - nothing to do with country of birth, passport or anything except allegiance and whether their activities support in any way the malign mafia state that Putin oversees.
@JasonGroves1
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1h
Former Ukrainian PM Oleksiy Honcharuk says Russian invasion ‘could be the start of the Third World War… because Putin will not stop, he will go as far as we let him go. It isn’t only about Ukraine, it’s about democracy in the world’
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1496762952258572288
She can remove British Citizenship from all the dodgy Russians, and then sequestrate their assets.
So three things:
1. Go after all Russian assets - the ones you believe don't exist
2. Go after ALL assets that may be the result of criminal actions related to the Russian state. We can - and do - freeze the assets of Brits suspected of having received laundered money or the proceeds of crime. I think we should apply our laws equally to everyone including naturalised citizens so that we can be clear that their money is honestly earned
3. Go after Russian influence. Tories donate the cash to a Ukranian fund. Ban Gazprom from UEFA sponsorship. Ban Uralkali from F1 sponsorship. Shut down their access to international money and international trade.
"No abbots, monks, novices to learn,
Honey shall cost far more than candle-wax,
So high the price of wheat."
(yeah, I know it was a rhetorical question!)
https://twitter.com/natesaundersF1/status/1496789718616268810
F1 statement on the Russian GP: "Formula 1 is closely watching the very fluid developments like many others and at this time has no further comment on the race scheduled for September. We will continue to monitor the situation very closely."
To do otherwise would have been very selfish.
[Don't play the shot game for every Mazepin spin. It's not good for you.]
Zelensky = Centrist liberal
Putin = Right-wing conservative.
1: I agree with going after Russian assets. No disagreement from me.
2: There is a law and procedure to freeze assets from crimes and a "suspicion" is not proof of wrong doing. There are procedures for things like unexplained wealth, but the law must be followed. If you want the law implemented in full, then I agree with that 100%. If you want people to be targeted based on a political vendetta outside of the law, then I couldn't disagree more.
3: Tories AFAIK haven't taken a single penny from Russians, its illegal to do so, they've only accepted money from Britons. Completely and 100% agreed on actual Russians and Russian firms like Gazprom and sport teams, finance etc
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
The Bolsheviks treated the Russian people as inexhaustible material for their social experiments. They dreamt of a world revolution that would wipe out national states. That is why they were so generous in drawing borders and bestowing territorial gifts. It is no longer important what exactly the idea of the Bolshevik leaders who were chopping the country into pieces was. We can disagree about minor details, background and logics behind certain decisions. One fact is crystal clear: Russia was robbed, indeed.
..I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. Our spiritual, human and civilizational ties formed for centuries and have their origins in the same sources, they have been hardened by common trials, achievements and victories. Our kinship has been transmitted from generation to generation. It is in the hearts and the memory of people living in modern Russia and Ukraine, in the blood ties that unite millions of our families. Together we have always been and will be many times stronger and more successful. For we are one people.
Today, these words may be perceived by some people with hostility. They can be interpreted in many possible ways. Yet, many people will hear me. And I will say one thing – Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide.
This could be correct, with echoes of 1930s...
I have listened and watched the media since, and seeing men, women and ever so innocent children desperately joining the traffic jam in Kiev trying to flee to safety has brought me to tears several times
My despair and anger knows no bounds, and the west have to isolate Russia totally and ensure they cannot participate in any sports anywhere
This is not the time to turn on ourselves but to unite here, in Europe, US and ROW
I think that's a good idea.
On wheat I have 28.4/765.8 million metric tonnes of production from Ukraine.
74.5/765.8 tonnes for Russia.
So it's not 10% for the Ukraine, but still..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/22/jeremy-corbyn-backs-criticism-britain-playing-provocative-role/
See 'Forget the obsession with sanctions against oligarchs. I have a better way to hurt Putin' by Angus Roxburgh, yesterday, but still on the website.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Аншлюс
If someone says that all immigrants should be deported is that racist? Or since its not a specific ethnicity they're referring to then its not racism? 🤦♂️
If you deem those born in other countries to be inferior to true blood and soil Brits, then yes that's racism. And if you want a specific ethnicity then its Brits and not Russians that is the specifier - you're judging Brits and non-Brits differently - though of course Britons aren't a single ethnicity either.
Anyway, on the basis of that insider information, off to stockpile honey....
He didn't.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-russia-money-visas-b2016795.html
You could argue that there is a greater unfairness for people with bad eyes or teeth who have to contribute to the costs of optometry and dentistry. Likewise folks whose savings are sucked dry by the costs of care. No-one volunteered for that, which is quite different to those who seek to better themselves through education.
1. We already know Boris is not good in a crisis. I do not understand why Tory MPs are keeping him in place.
2. I think we are past the point where sanctions are going to resolve the crisis. I'd rather the government was talking about arming Ukraine, rearmament of UK forces, and NATO expansion. The last defence review can now be binned.
But there has to be evidence first. Its not a case of "I don't like that person, lets freeze his assets".
It’s difficult not to give into despair. After the epochal horrors of Covid, a new Cold War looms, with the very real possibility that it will spiral into hot war across Eastern Europe, not just poor Ukraine
Meanwhile, a truly sinister superpower rises in Asia. One prone to casual genocides. And engineering killer viruses.
I guess this is what living in the 1930s felt like? Except we have plague and climate change as well
https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1496795375205711874?s=20&t=uSQ-OWSNJ9x33kF1TcmPog
So, if we're now declaring that we're going to war against these outflows of money then we need to go after the very people who both have the cash and assets and the people who profit from them. Whilst doing so is currently perfectly legal as are their donations to the Tory party and direct access influence it buys, it will have to stop.
Thanks to our government and opposition, we are in no fit state to fight Putin. He knows this. He may be evil personified, but like Trump says, stupid he is not. Know your enemy.
I'm not a fan of dragging politics into sport, but they collectively dived right into that pool and wallowed in the BLM/kneeling fad. Might still be happening (I've always avoided pre-race nonsense). But calendar regulars still include one red flag country with concentration camps and another that seems to be looking to annihilate a European nation-state.
We'll see what they do.
"Schließen Sie die Tür" means "Shut the door"
"Schließen zusammen" (literally 'Shut together') means "Join forces"
I'm not sure any English or Russian words have that etymological sense.
Putin, as uncomfortable as it is to admit it, has played a long game superbly.
Like a weed gradually cracking concrete, we have allowed Russian influence to fracture us here in the west. We have let Russian money grease our political systems. We have allowed ourselves to become dependent on Russian gas, on their other raw materials.
Putin has been doing this for decades, developing and implementing a long-term plan and using the short-termism of our political and industrial leaders, the inability to see beyond the next election, an unwillingness to invest in energy infrastructure and supply, against us.
They have sowed division. They have used bots and money to feed Trump and Brexit and any other division they can exploit in our societies - to deny that is laughable.
And Putin has waited for the moment when we are too dependent on them, and too divided amongst ourselves, to implement this part of his grand plan. America is gridlocked, the EU is weakened, we’re weakened. We’re coming out of Covid, prices are rising, people are exhausted and demoralised.
They will have watched our experiences in Iraq and Afghan, our unwillingness to take large casualties in far off countries of which we know little.
They have slowly, gradually, developed a plan, been patient, and are implementing it gradually, step-by-step. It’s masterful in a geopolitical sense and morally bankrupt.
Ukraine is probably finished. That’s a tragedy. The western populations won’t accept the deaths of their sons and daughters for Ukraine. What follows Ukraine is genuinely very scary. They seem to be very happy in threatening nuclear war. Hopefully that is just rhetoric.
I don’t know enough about what happened after the fall of the USSR about opportunities to get Russia into NATO. I’ve read that Putin was keen to join. How true that is I don’t know. But if that chance was missed, that could prove to be a high miscalculation.
Not sure where we go from here, but we need to wean ourself of the Russian teat, the gush of dirty money, the gas, as soon as we can. That won’t be quick.
1. Putin is a bully, which is terrible
2. We should have been bullied into staying in the EU. Which is fine.
It's almost as if sacrificing common sense and self-interest on the altar of the Great God Warmor was, and always was, bloody stupid. (Not forgetting Merkel's delinquency on nuclear in Germany, or our own failures on nuclear building).
The calendar including red flag countries is being set by the operators chasing money.
The kneeling etc is being set by players fighting (and themselves victims of) racism.
Incidentally Hamilton quite famously did attack Saudi Arabia's human rights record too. Good on him.
Just because the bosses of F1 are all about the money, does that invalidate the players trying to do the right thing with their platform?
Go easy on us: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/
Or they'll go easy on you (you'd better damn well know the US Gallup poll ratings supporting war between June 1940 and October 1940... and you'd better know the placement and OOB of every German and Soviet division day by day between 22nd June 1941 and 8th May 1945 or you'll get absolutely roasted in their main forum).
It's great that we take the knee and we should.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Kneel-How-Rise/dp/1398503231
This is a good but paywalled article on Macron’s attempt to mollify Putin. Moderately critical of Macron, says he was vain and foolhardy - but on the other hand at least he tried.
More interesting is the French appraisal of Putin. Macron’s team apparently met a changed, isolated, paranoid man. Clear implications that Putin has gone slightly mad
https://www.ft.com/content/878727ab-c97d-4f4d-8493-9a472962749a
The UK gov could issue them like confetti and gum up the system for years for anyone they target as the assets are frozen until the entity proves how they made the funds.
In any event, the need is because of the expansion of HE which has made it unaffordable to come from general taxation. Didn't apply in the past when far fewer went on to HE.