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It is now evens that Johnson will survive 2022 – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761
    edited February 2022

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ukraine has painfully exposed the faults of a British government that prizes rhetoric over substance and revealed the truth, that Britain is more irrelevant in Europe than it has been for 300 years.
    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1496559498571489281

    Why does that matter? Why is Britain being 'relevant' hundreds of miles from our shores something to be so highly prized? It's a very illiberal approach that says we need to be able to bash people over the head for not behaving themselves the way we would like them to, and if we're not powerful enough to be the bashers, we have to join a bigger organisation so we can have a small part in the bashing. Switzerland has been getting on with being irrelevant in Europe for centuries, and doing very nicely out of it thankyou.
    And all they’ve given us is the cuckoo clock, as Orson Welles said.
    But also, not the Holocaust. Do you think that, say, Beethoven and Goethe make up for that?
    Bung in Schubert, Friedrich, Kraftwerk & Lang and I'll have a think.
    And Bowie’s Berlin era.
    Holbein, Durer, Nina’s 99 Red Balloons (topical)
    Shit, guys, are we talking about the same Holocaust? The being shot but not killed and thrown into a fire anyway, babies being used for machine gun practice one? You think a single death, let alone millions, in those circumstances can be outweighed by sodding Beethoven's wanking fifth? David Bowie? Really really?
    You posed a really stupid question, and received facetious answers.

    Next.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Fucking Holbein. Jesus.

    I suppose they were only Jews mind. Mainly.

    I have never been so disgusted by anything posted on pb, that wasn't posted by me.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,320
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear though.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Lack of Trippier, Wilson and even ASM is going to cause us problems.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited February 2022
    glw said:

    All true, but he also was clearly open, or even enthusiastic for a western alliance early on in his time as President too. He also had formative years as young KGB agent who quickly adopted Western mores, in some respects, at the end of the '80s, like his peers. Everything was in flux and still to be decided for him from about 1989 to 2003 or 2004.

    I have absolutely no doubt that Putin would want to cultivate relations with Western leaders and persuade them that he was an ally, and to an extent that view did persist for quite a while after he came to power, but that doesn't mean that was his true intent. Putin and his associates were basically hoods for the USSR, who took their skills and applied them at ever larger scales until he reached the very top. Corruption, abuse of power, links with organised crime, shell companies hiding state monies, epic levels of graft, it all goes right back to the start of Putin's career. Why the West collectively came to believe that this particular leopard had changed his spots will puzzle future historians.
    We'll have to agree to differ on this one, because as I say I think early on in his career he was quite open to a more Western direction. Don't forget he also allowed high levels of democratic criticism and press freedom for quite a number of years early on, by Russian standards, even as he persisted with his old networks.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,596

    Taz said:

    Guardian suggesting tonight that Johnson due to his legal representation will avoid an FPN but the minions might not

    That looks even worse for Johnson. His minions get an FPN and he gets nothing. It seems, whether it is or not is moot, unfair.
    Johnson will view no FPN as a vindication of his behaviour, a confirmation of innocence.

    My lapdog Conservative MP will agree.
    This is old news from yesterday, when ITV got lawyers to say, only what Cyclefree gave us for free last month “Questionnaire? That’s hopeless way of doing it, if you can hire a decent lawyer where they can fill this in you get off Scot free.”

    I don’t believe it actually. I think the Gruniad are poking the hornets nest a bit. As pointed out, if he gets off and underlings fined, there will be uproar.

    Have I missed the bit where Nut Nut the main partying protagonist returned a questionnaire? There is absolutely no way she can avoid a fine is there?

    But in Boris case, this is not a simple ticking off - it’s his law, to lock us down with the impact of family who died without being able to see or nurse them, funerals where you sit alone, weddings cancelled - he didn’t lead by example on the law he created, he broke it whilst his henchman were on tv lecturing us.

    Okay he wasn’t gone yesterday. He has evaded the end game rather well/fortunately, but he can’t avoid it much longer. Survives this year evens?

    In fact a vonc last month he might have scraped home, this delay, for his backbenchers to learn from the Saville resignations, the 2M Russian money he’s accepted in last two years he is going to be hounded about forever now, sanction bombardment shambles, if anything each day without vonc seals it against him.
    It comes back to the fact that those MPs who want him gone still mostly prefer that the deed be done in May, after the tax rise and the election losses.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    Taz said:

    Guardian suggesting tonight that Johnson due to his legal representation will avoid an FPN but the minions might not

    That looks even worse for Johnson. His minions get an FPN and he gets nothing. It seems, whether it is or not is moot, unfair.
    Johnson will view no FPN as a vindication of his behaviour, a confirmation of innocence.

    My lapdog Conservative MP will agree.
    Oh yes, it is pretty classic stuff. The possibility of something much worse, then avoided, and therefore that's the same as no issue whatsoever. Never occurs that something might be wrong or poor behaviour even if it is not a crime or worthy of a fine (even though in other situations the opposite is the case and resignations and apologies may be demanded for much much less).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ukraine has painfully exposed the faults of a British government that prizes rhetoric over substance and revealed the truth, that Britain is more irrelevant in Europe than it has been for 300 years.
    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1496559498571489281

    Why does that matter? Why is Britain being 'relevant' hundreds of miles from our shores something to be so highly prized? It's a very illiberal approach that says we need to be able to bash people over the head for not behaving themselves the way we would like them to, and if we're not powerful enough to be the bashers, we have to join a bigger organisation so we can have a small part in the bashing. Switzerland has been getting on with being irrelevant in Europe for centuries, and doing very nicely out of it thankyou.
    And all they’ve given us is the cuckoo clock, as Orson Welles said.
    But also, not the Holocaust. Do you think that, say, Beethoven and Goethe make up for that?
    Bung in Schubert, Friedrich, Kraftwerk & Lang and I'll have a think.
    And Bowie’s Berlin era.
    Holbein, Durer, Nina’s 99 Red Balloons (topical)
    Shit, guys, are we talking about the same Holocaust? The being shot but not killed and thrown into a fire anyway, babies being used for machine gun practice one? You think a single death, let alone millions, in those circumstances can be outweighed by sodding Beethoven's wanking fifth? David Bowie? Really really?
    You posed a really stupid question, and received facetious answers.

    Next.
    Yeah, I obviously just lack a sensayuma. Interested to know what was stupid about the question, though, and your qualifications to detect stupidity.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Guardian suggesting tonight that Johnson due to his legal representation will avoid an FPN but the minions might not

    That looks even worse for Johnson. His minions get an FPN and he gets nothing. It seems, whether it is or not is moot, unfair.
    Johnson will view no FPN as a vindication of his behaviour, a confirmation of innocence.

    My lapdog Conservative MP will agree.
    This is old news from yesterday, when ITV got lawyers to say, only what Cyclefree gave us for free last month “Questionnaire? That’s hopeless way of doing it, if you can hire a decent lawyer where they can fill this in you get off Scot free.”

    I don’t believe it actually. I think the Gruniad are poking the hornets nest a bit. As pointed out, if he gets off and underlings fined, there will be uproar.

    Have I missed the bit where Nut Nut the main partying protagonist returned a questionnaire? There is absolutely no way she can avoid a fine is there?

    But in Boris case, this is not a simple ticking off - it’s his law, to lock us down with the impact of family who died without being able to see or nurse them, funerals where you sit alone, weddings cancelled - he didn’t lead by example on the law he created, he broke it whilst his henchman were on tv lecturing us.

    Okay he wasn’t gone yesterday. He has evaded the end game rather well/fortunately, but he can’t avoid it much longer. Survives this year evens?

    In fact a vonc last month he might have scraped home, this delay, for his backbenchers to learn from the Saville resignations, the 2M Russian money he’s accepted in last two years he is going to be hounded about forever now, sanction bombardment shambles, if anything each day without vonc seals it against him.
    It comes back to the fact that those MPs who want him gone still mostly prefer that the deed be done in May, after the tax rise and the election losses.
    Do they? Evidence?

    It comes to the fact if the police fine him tomorrow, the letters go in straight away.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear though.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Lack of Trippier, Wilson and even ASM is going to cause us problems.
    ASM injured? I thought he was your best player when at the King Power. Great movement and power, but needs to work on his finishing.
  • Claims by Russian channels that Russian Il-22PP jamming aircraft is airborne and conducting EW warfare in DPR/LPR

    Many reports that cell service is completely down in Donetsk. This is probably due to Russian EW efforts intensifying.


    https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1496609962205888514
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,273

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear though.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Lack of Trippier, Wilson and even ASM is going to cause us problems.
    You and Foxy think you've got problems, man?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    I interpret Leicester's position as being solidly in said mid table obscurity group, along with Brighton, Southampton, Palace and Villa. You'll be fine.
  • #France tells citizens to leave #Ukraine "immediately"

    https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1496611264335949831
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202
    IshmaelZ said:

    Fucking Holbein. Jesus.

    I suppose they were only Jews mind. Mainly.

    I have never been so disgusted by anything posted on pb, that wasn't posted by me.

    What?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,799

    glw said:

    All true, but he also was clearly open, or even enthusiastic for a western alliance early on in his time as President too. He also had formative years as young KGB agent who quickly adopted Western mores, in some respects, at the end of the '80s, like his peers. Everything was in flux and still to be decided for him from about 1989 to 2003 or 2004.

    I have absolutely no doubt that Putin would want to cultivate relations with Western leaders and persuade them that he was an ally, and to an extent that view did persist for quite a while after he came to power, but that doesn't mean that was his true intent. Putin and his associates were basically hoods for the USSR, who took their skills and applied them at ever larger scales until he reached the very top. Corruption, abuse of power, links with organised crime, shell companies hiding state monies, epic levels of graft, it all goes right back to the start of Putin's career. Why the West collectively came to believe that this particular leopard had changed his spots will puzzle future historians.
    We'll have to agree to differ here, because as I say I think early on in his career he was quite open to a more Western direction. Don't forget he also allowed high levels of democratic criticism and press freedom for quite a number of years early on, by Russian standards, even as he persisted with his old networks.
    Putin became President on 31st December 1999. The highly popular and critical NTV barely lasted 5 months before Putin's cronies started harassing the station, and in just over a year it was taken over by Gazprom.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,647

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Norwich, Watford and Burnley all away in the next cycle of matches - Brentford vs Newcastle looks huge. Defeat for Brentford and they will be fully in the relegation mire. Norwich have lost to Liverpool and Man City in the last two which they expected but they must get something out of Southampton on Friday evening.

    I suspect Palace won't be as kind to Burnley as Spurs were this evening and it could be Watford who look in a bad way by the end of Saturday.

    It'll be three of the current bottom seven who head for the Championship but it wouldn't surprise if at least one of the current bottom three escaped.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    I interpret Leicester's position as being solidly in said mid table obscurity group, along with Brighton, Southampton, Palace and Villa. You'll be fine.
    Our defence is rubbish, but I think we are scoring well enough, so probably will be mid table.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited February 2022
    glw said:

    glw said:

    All true, but he also was clearly open, or even enthusiastic for a western alliance early on in his time as President too. He also had formative years as young KGB agent who quickly adopted Western mores, in some respects, at the end of the '80s, like his peers. Everything was in flux and still to be decided for him from about 1989 to 2003 or 2004.

    I have absolutely no doubt that Putin would want to cultivate relations with Western leaders and persuade them that he was an ally, and to an extent that view did persist for quite a while after he came to power, but that doesn't mean that was his true intent. Putin and his associates were basically hoods for the USSR, who took their skills and applied them at ever larger scales until he reached the very top. Corruption, abuse of power, links with organised crime, shell companies hiding state monies, epic levels of graft, it all goes right back to the start of Putin's career. Why the West collectively came to believe that this particular leopard had changed his spots will puzzle future historians.
    We'll have to agree to differ here, because as I say I think early on in his career he was quite open to a more Western direction. Don't forget he also allowed high levels of democratic criticism and press freedom for quite a number of years early on, by Russian standards, even as he persisted with his old networks.
    Putin became President on 31st December 1999. The highly popular and critical NTV barely lasted 5 months before Putin's cronies started harassing the station, and in just over a year it was taken over by Gazprom.
    But several parts of the free print press carried on for years after that, and censorship of state tv wasn't really institutionalised for almost a decade. By Russian standards, his first years were fairly, or even very, democratic.

    Turning a blind eye to the Chechen gangsters as his enforcers, several years after he'd completed the conflict there, seems to have been one of the crucial turning-points.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Fucking Holbein. Jesus.

    I suppose they were only Jews mind. Mainly.

    I have never been so disgusted by anything posted on pb, that wasn't posted by me.

    What?
    How do you mean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,784
    Scott_xP said:
    Hasn't he done that several times already ?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202
    edited February 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Fucking Holbein. Jesus.

    I suppose they were only Jews mind. Mainly.

    I have never been so disgusted by anything posted on pb, that wasn't posted by me.

    What?
    How do you mean?
    You never been more disgusted than by my post.

    Holbein. The Ambassadors and so many icon portraits.

    What’s going on 😕
  • glwglw Posts: 9,799
    edited February 2022

    But the free print press carried on well past that, and censorship of state tv wasn't really instutionalised for almost a decade. By Russian standards, his first years were fairly, or even very, democratic.

    We are talking about the same facts and you are saying something like "they had nearly a decade of press freedom", and I'm saying "press freedom was under attack from the start" so we do disagree on how to interpret what happened.

    Sure by the historic standards of Russia, which has never had good governance ever, things might have looked less bleak than at some times in the past, but I believe we can now see that Putin and his circle were already rolling back some of the chaotic freedom that had developed during Yeltsin's rule.

    You know it occurs to me now that we have gone quite directly from our chief concern being something like Putin limiting press freedom to Putin snuffing out a neighbouring country, with barely any resistance from the West. 20 odd years of GWOT has led to a catastrophic distraction of Western attention.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Hasn't he done that several times already ?
    When someone says they want to give their side when they have already had an opportunity to do so multiple times it means that they want to repeat their position or reframe it as the last time did not work in getting them off the hook. Paterson's mob tried to same kind of trick to imply he'd not had a chance to explain himself.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,784

    philiph said:

    The best sanction would be to trace and locate all the assets of V Putin esq.

    Track and trace? That sounds like a job for Dido Harding.
    Don't we want to recover more money than we spend ?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited February 2022
    glw said:

    But the free print press carried on well past that, and censorship of state tv wasn't really instutionalised for almost a decade. By Russian standards, his first years were fairly, or even very, democratic.

    We are talking about the same facts and you are saying something like "they had nearly a decade of press freedom", and I'm saying "press freedom was under attack from the start" si we do disagree on how to interpret what happened.

    Sure by the historic standards of Russia, which has never had good governance ever, things might have looked less bleak than at some times in the past, but I believe we can now see that Putin and his circle were already rolling back some of the chaotic freedom that had developed during Yeltsin's rule.
    This thing with the Chechens like Kadyrov is crucial, I think. At the beginning of this time he seemed to acquiescing with them, and by the end he seemed to be encouraging them. It's also around the end of this time that he seemed to have decided to start building the cult of personality, too, with the judo, and fish, and whatnot.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,462
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Leicester have looked dismal since they got stuffed by Forest on prime time telly. But they are surely too far clear to get dragged into a relegation battle. Seven points is a big gap.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    Interesting look at development of renewable energy and battery technology.

    https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    edited February 2022
    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,273
    edited February 2022

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Leicester have looked dismal since they got stuffed by Forest on prime time telly. But they are surely too far clear to get dragged into a relegation battle. Seven points is a big gap.
    Seven points. But a lot of teams worse than them below.
    Everton are the team to watch. We're not very good, and got 14 of our 22 points in the first six games.
    Our trajectory is down, whereas everyone else is picking up points
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Leicester have looked dismal since they got stuffed by Forest on prime time telly. But they are surely too far clear to get dragged into a relegation battle. Seven points is a big gap.
    No, we were playing badly before then. No PL win this year, albeit lots of postponed matches.

    We played well at Wolves for most of the match on Sunday, albeit still punished for inconsistency in the rest of the match. I would want a win at Burnley to settle nerves though. We might have Vardy back for that, but he is best now as an impact sub.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Look on the bright side.

    It might be a major sewage leak.
  • Update: Symantec now says they have seen targets of the new wiper attack in Ukraine, Latvia AND Lithuania. Targets include finance and government contractors, Symantec says.

    https://twitter.com/dnvolz/status/1496616093808570373
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,989
    For the first time in many years I left a football match early. I was cold and wet and we were losing 1-0. When I got back to my car I turned on the radio and found we had won 2-1 with goals on 88' and 96'.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,370
    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Leicester have looked dismal since they got stuffed by Forest on prime time telly. But they are surely too far clear to get dragged into a relegation battle. Seven points is a big gap.
    Seven points. But a lot of teams worse than them below.
    Everton are the team to watch. We're not very good, and got 14 of our 22 points in the first six games.
    Our trajectory is down, whereas everyone else is picking up points
    No uptick with Lampard expected?

    We have to play you twice in our remaining 14 games. It's a weird covid and injury battered season.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,784
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Hasn't he done that several times already ?
    When someone says they want to give their side when they have already had an opportunity to do so multiple times it means that they want to repeat their position or reframe it as the last time did not work in getting them off the hook. Paterson's mob tried to same kind of trick to imply he'd not had a chance to explain himself.
    Which version does he want to repeat ?

    Hasn't he lied enough already ?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,202

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Fucking Holbein. Jesus.

    I suppose they were only Jews mind. Mainly.

    I have never been so disgusted by anything posted on pb, that wasn't posted by me.

    What?
    How do you mean?
    You never been more disgusted than by my post.

    Holbein. The Ambassadors and so many icon portraits.

    What’s going on 😕
    I thought everyone just listing best German Cultural things, didn’t see your original post properly.

    God. That’s a terrible thread. 😦

    Jewish people should be quite outraged. It’s best if admin deletes it.

    I’m so sorry. 🙇‍♀️
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    edited February 2022
    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Good on her for pointing out the idiocy of this ongoing saga. It's not going to cost any less to keep refusing to take action. Support for your theory continues to accrue.

    As usual JRM seems to make no sense at all, since he talks about it going on too long, but is against taking the option that will take the least amount of time and is apparently a big part of why it is getting reopened, with no urgency on taking action. His position seems to be that it inconveniences him, therefore let's do nothing.

    They have to decant in full - nothing else makes financial sense - or just demolish. Otherwise they are just fannying about.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,101
    edited February 2022
    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    It matters not whether it is the seat of government or not. It is quite rightly a Grade 1 listed building and as such the repairs have to be done anyway whatever the MPs might think about it. So that tens of billions (if that is what it costs) still has to be spent.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,989
    I have just started reading Richards Sherriff's War with Russia: what happens if Russia invades Ukraine. I'll let you know how it ends.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    Bugger. Broken my left foot and right leg. Now having my knee x-rayed. It's only my ankle that hurts.

    I have done some pretty dangerous sports when young without any injuries. I just went over on my ankle while walking. Pathetic.
  • TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    The comments mention that a consultation with Sweden would be required. Any one on here have any idea if that is true and if so why?
  • Zelensky speaks to the nation. The gravity of the situation looks to have really gotten to him.

    "Today I initiated a phone conversation with the president of the Russian Federation. The result was silence. Although it's the Donbas where there should be silence."


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496620289563709443
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,273
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Dirty Leeds hit for six.

    Joël Matip's goal was better than sex, everyone in the ground needed a cigarette,.
    Optimistic from the BBC viewers

    The quadruple is on.

    (It really isn't, I've got tickets for Sunday, which ensures a Chelsea victory.)
    Great result for Burnley too. My Foxes are in poor form and play there on Tuesday. Rogers needs a win, the fans are getting restless.
    Norwich, Leeds and Brentford could yet be the three for the drop. Awful form....
    Leicester fans are now looking down the table rather than up.

    I agree Brentford look poor, and Leeds seem in a tailspin. Norwich have had quite an uptick in form, so may make it even more tense in the bottom end. I think Everton and Newcastle aren't in the clear, but will probably scrape through.

    The end of the season may be quite interesting at both ends of the table. I am hoping for mid table obscurity and a summer rebuild.
    Leicester have looked dismal since they got stuffed by Forest on prime time telly. But they are surely too far clear to get dragged into a relegation battle. Seven points is a big gap.
    Seven points. But a lot of teams worse than them below.
    Everton are the team to watch. We're not very good, and got 14 of our 22 points in the first six games.
    Our trajectory is down, whereas everyone else is picking up points
    No uptick with Lampard expected?

    We have to play you twice in our remaining 14 games. It's a weird covid and injury battered season.
    The issue with us isn't the manager.
    We've done OK against better teams. Drawn away at Chelsea and Man U.
    Beaten Arsenal and got a point off Spurs at home.
    We're dreadful against anyone around us.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
    That's probably needlessly expensive - there's more to the place than the Chambers and a lot of associated office space that would be required, so fixing up different places to be suitable whilst continuously on the move adds to the complexity and expense. Where they go is not a simple question no doubt, but given it means to refurb is so much cheaper and quicker, that frees up the cash to resolve the problems of where they would go.

    Plus, let's be honest, if they thought it was going to take 10 years, it would actually take 20.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    It matters not whether it is he seat of government or not. It is quite rightly a Grade 1 listed building and as such the repairs have to be done anyway whatever the MPs might think about it. So that tens of billions (if that is what it costs) still has to be spent.
    But the longer they fanny about the more likely it is that the building will be destroyed in a massive conflagration, and then they really can start again.

    They're stalling in the hope that it burns.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    It matters not whether it is the seat of government or not. It is quite rightly a Grade 1 listed building and as such the repairs have to be done anyway whatever the MPs might think about it. So that tens of billions (if that is what it costs) still has to be spent.
    Well quite. The options sometimes spoken in jest, sometimes not, of being a museum or something, would still cost bucketloads, as would even the joke idea of rennovating it into flats.

    Because I visited Parliament a few years ago I still get regular emails from it about revisiting, so it keeps my anger at it state broiling.
  • So, as Ukraine sits with a gun to his head, Germany's main public TV channel @ard is discussing the degree to which "Putin feels threatened by NATO's eastward expansion" with Putin's German hagiographer Hubert Seipel. Extraordinary.
    @maischberger


    https://twitter.com/MKarnitschnig/status/1496620343917694979
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    kjh said:

    Bugger. Broken my left foot and right leg. Now having my knee x-rayed. It's only my ankle that hurts.

    I have done some pretty dangerous sports when young without any injuries. I just went over on my ankle while walking. Pathetic.

    Sympathies. It's like if you have a high speed motorbike crash which is fixed relatively easily, then you drop it at 15mph and the thing is just totalled somehow. Infuriating.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,370
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
    That's probably needlessly expensive - there's more to the place than the Chambers and a lot of associated office space that would be required, so fixing up different places to be suitable whilst continuously on the move adds to the complexity and expense. Where they go is not a simple question no doubt, but given it means to refurb is so much cheaper and quicker, that frees up the cash to resolve the problems of where they would go.

    Plus, let's be honest, if they thought it was going to take 10 years, it would actually take 20.
    On the other hand, expenses in Hull and Liverpool would probably be a fraction of what they are in London.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    kjh said:

    Bugger. Broken my left foot and right leg. Now having my knee x-rayed. It's only my ankle that hurts.

    I have done some pretty dangerous sports when young without any injuries. I just went over on my ankle while walking. Pathetic.

    Ouch!

    Oh well, look on the bright side. I imagine that a meaningful number of people every year strike their heads on the ground when falling and expire as a result. So, could be worse.

    Anyway, get well soon :smile:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,320
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
    That's probably needlessly expensive - there's more to the place than the Chambers and a lot of associated office space that would be required, so fixing up different places to be suitable whilst continuously on the move adds to the complexity and expense. Where they go is not a simple question no doubt, but given it means to refurb is so much cheaper and quicker, that frees up the cash to resolve the problems of where they would go.

    Plus, let's be honest, if they thought it was going to take 10 years, it would actually take 20.
    On the other hand, expenses in Hull and Liverpool would probably be a fraction of what they are in London.
    Challenge accepted
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    Putins speech was, amongst other things, a claim on Finland. It is part of the historic Russia which he seeks to reunite. This is likely to lead to a shift in public opinion in Finland on the question of NATO membership.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    The comments mention that a consultation with Sweden would be required. Any one on here have any idea if that is true and if so why?
    I no wondered that. Sweden’s non-aligned so maybe it’s about NATO forces needing to traverse Swedish airspace and sea?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
    That's probably needlessly expensive - there's more to the place than the Chambers and a lot of associated office space that would be required, so fixing up different places to be suitable whilst continuously on the move adds to the complexity and expense. Where they go is not a simple question no doubt, but given it means to refurb is so much cheaper and quicker, that frees up the cash to resolve the problems of where they would go.

    Plus, let's be honest, if they thought it was going to take 10 years, it would actually take 20.
    The estimate in the article my original message referred back to was that restoration assuming a full decant would take between 19 and 28 years, with a cost of anything from £7bn to £13bn.

    That probably means it'd take half a century and cost £50bn. It's small wonder that they quote Rees-Mogg suggesting that Parliament would probably never return to the Palace if it left.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987

    So, as Ukraine sits with a gun to his head, Germany's main public TV channel @ard is discussing the degree to which "Putin feels threatened by NATO's eastward expansion" with Putin's German hagiographer Hubert Seipel. Extraordinary.
    @maischberger


    https://twitter.com/MKarnitschnig/status/1496620343917694979

    It's insane how that gets bought into. Unless Putin and Russia feel threatened by the inclusion of North Macedonia and Montenegro, neither of which border Russia, it's been over 10 years since anyone else joined NATO. You'd think it happened last week the way it has been parroted as part of why Putin is so upset.

    So however 'threatened' they felt by the eastward expansion it has nothing whatsoever to do with what is happening now since it happened a long time ago, as his whinge attested. The theoretical prospect of Ukraine joining certainly doesn't qualify as a pretext either, given the mask slipping the other day about its status as a country. So there really is no need to bring the two issues together.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    The comments mention that a consultation with Sweden would be required. Any one on here have any idea if that is true and if so why?
    I no wondered that. Sweden’s non-aligned so maybe it’s about NATO forces needing to traverse Swedish airspace and sea?
    AIUI Sweden and Finland co-operate extensively on defence matters. They probably don't want to just naff off to NATO without giving their friends fair warning and discussing it with them first.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,987
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    pigeon said:

    On the latest episode in the endless Parliamentary renovation saga:

    Senior Tory MP Andrea Leadsom says:

    “A partial decant or staying put means we continue to risk the palace burning down, a major asbestos or sewage leak or a major water failure. I think it is ridiculous that the tough decision the House took in 2018 has been reopened yet again.”


    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1496595436878151694

    Dame Andrea hasn't realised that a lot of her colleagues probably want it to burn down. Then they can save themselves the trouble of spending grinding decades and tens of billions in hugely unpopular expenditure on the painstaking restoration of a knackered old Parliament, and simply build a nice shiny new one with modern debating chambers and lovely, bright, airy, spacious offices (and probably for half the price, too.)

    Wait and see. When the time comes they'll task the London Fire Brigade with rescuing Big Ben and Westminster Hall, and let the rest of it go up like a Roman Candle on Bonfire Night.

    Parliament could go on a tour round the country for 10 years while they fix the building.
    That's probably needlessly expensive - there's more to the place than the Chambers and a lot of associated office space that would be required, so fixing up different places to be suitable whilst continuously on the move adds to the complexity and expense. Where they go is not a simple question no doubt, but given it means to refurb is so much cheaper and quicker, that frees up the cash to resolve the problems of where they would go.

    Plus, let's be honest, if they thought it was going to take 10 years, it would actually take 20.
    The estimate in the article my original message referred back to was that restoration assuming a full decant would take between 19 and 28 years, with a cost of anything from £7bn to £13bn.

    That probably means it'd take half a century and cost £50bn. It's small wonder that they quote Rees-Mogg suggesting that Parliament would probably never return to the Palace if it left.
    A risk, perhaps, but less a risk than literally doing nothing which is what his alternative seems to be, since reopening it to a vote at some future point for an option even more expensive and unpopular, is essentially doing nothing. Not least since it was supposed to have been decided previously and that apparently now means nothing, so any future commitment to spend even more and take even longer would get revisited too.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    The Twitter rumour is that the invasion is set for 4am Ukraine time; 2am London; 9pm New York.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215

    TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    The comments mention that a consultation with Sweden would be required. Any one on here have any idea if that is true and if so why?
    Possibly something to do with the Aland Islands? As I recall it is part of Finland but an autonomous area with a Swedish speaking majority, and would be strategically important in any defensive actions. Thats just a guess though.

  • kjh said:

    Bugger. Broken my left foot and right leg. Now having my knee x-rayed. It's only my ankle that hurts.

    I have done some pretty dangerous sports when young without any injuries. I just went over on my ankle while walking. Pathetic.

    Aagh! Really sorry to hear that kjh! You are not having much luck at the moment.

    I can only wish you a swift recovery.
  • The Twitter rumour is that the invasion is set for 4am Ukraine time; 2am London; 9pm New York.

    It's Politico who have predicted six of the last zero invasions - stopped clock always possible, but treat with caution.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576

    The Twitter rumour is that the invasion is set for 4am Ukraine time; 2am London; 9pm New York.

    Have they given an update on the Queen recently?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    AFP, via Twitter:

    Ukraine president says he unsuccessfully sought talks with Putin

    Ukraine president says nearly 200,000 Russian troops on border
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611
    Russia has issued a NOTAM closing the airspace along the Ukrainian border.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    RobD said:

    The Twitter rumour is that the invasion is set for 4am Ukraine time; 2am London; 9pm New York.

    Have they given an update on the Queen recently?
    Apparently Carrie’s grid has pushed that back until after today’s JRM imperial measures announcement and tomorrow’s Ukraine invasion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576
    kjh said:

    Bugger. Broken my left foot and right leg. Now having my knee x-rayed. It's only my ankle that hurts.

    I have done some pretty dangerous sports when young without any injuries. I just went over on my ankle while walking. Pathetic.

    What a nightmare. Hopefully you have a speedy recovery, and enjoy binge watching Netflix in the interim.
  • A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,370
    Not sure how wise Ben Wallace's comments about "kicking Russia's backside" are.

  • Dmytro Kuleba
    @DmytroKuleba
    Ukraine has requested an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council due to the appeal by Russian occupation administrations in Donetsk and Luhansk to Russia with a request to provide them with military assistance, which is a further escalation of the security situation.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,370
    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,611
    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    Farooq said:

    A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog

    The consensus on here very recently was "nothing to do with us".
    I wonder how many will feel the same next week.
    If all those five million are indeed displaced and decide to flee the country, then the rest of Europe is going to have an enormous challenge finding them all food, shelter, care, and probably permanent resettlement.

    The UK constitutes about 7% of the population of the NATO alliance. 7% of 5,000,000 is about 350,000 people. That's an awful lot of camp beds and leisure centre sports halls. And our wretched Government hasn't even been able to look after a few thousand Afghans properly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576
    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    That doesn't sound very believable at all.
  • In ten years time we may declare that this was actually a good thing. We just don't know. Even iSAGE doesn't know:


    Meaghan Kall@kallmemegSometimes it’s impossible for even epidemiologists to detach emotion from a statistic. This is one of those times.

    Half of all English primary-aged children were infected with COVID-19 in just 4 months. 🤯

    https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1496595639265902598
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    I remember being told on here that China was by far the only substantial threat to the UK, and hence no need to worry about about our European relationships.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    I remember being told on here that China was by far the only substantial threat to the UK, and hence no need to worry about about our European relationships.
    Somewhat different, don't you think?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    There was a lot of criticism of H Clinton for being a Russia hawk during the 2016 campaign. We might have been a in a much better place now if we were at the start of her second term.
  • pigeon said:

    Farooq said:

    A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog

    The consensus on here very recently was "nothing to do with us".
    I wonder how many will feel the same next week.
    If all those five million are indeed displaced and decide to flee the country, then the rest of Europe is going to have an enormous challenge finding them all food, shelter, care, and probably permanent resettlement.

    The UK constitutes about 7% of the population of the NATO alliance. 7% of 5,000,000 is about 350,000 people. That's an awful lot of camp beds and leisure centre sports halls. And our wretched Government hasn't even been able to look after a few thousand Afghans properly.
    Yet more evidence that Putin has lost his fucking mind. When he is finally gone Russia will take a very very long time to recover from this reckless insanity.
  • darkage said:

    TimS said:

    This Turkish journalist has been great for Ukraine scoops the last few days, but this one is a big deal.

    https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1496607715329822722?s=21

    Great job Vlad, uniting the West.

    The comments mention that a consultation with Sweden would be required. Any one on here have any idea if that is true and if so why?
    Possibly something to do with the Aland Islands? As I recall it is part of Finland but an autonomous area with a Swedish speaking majority, and would be strategically important in any defensive actions. Thats just a guess though.

    Cheers sir.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    It is my eldest's 29th birthday today.

    Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that at much the same age as I was when he came along, he would be looking at the obliteration of a nation state by an aggressive power in Europe.

    Awful. Truly awful.

    I have such happy memories of Kiev.

    It does feel, in the past few years, as if we are returning to a world of authoritarian aggression and democratic weakness more familiar to my parents and grand-parents when young.

    I really fear that if Putin is successful in Ukraine he will not stop there. And then what? Worrying times.
  • Farooq said:

    A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog

    The consensus on here very recently was "nothing to do with us".
    I wonder how many will feel the same next week.
    Food and energy prices will be sky rocketing within months. We will know it is 'to do with us' then.
  • Very robust statement from Estonian Parliament:

    The Estonian Parliament just unanimously passed a resolution condemning the Russian aggression against Ukraine. It entails important language. I encourage everyone to read it and think about the gravity of what is said.



    https://twitter.com/EerikNKross/status/1496588903259779075

  • max seddon
    @maxseddon
    ·
    39m
    Zelensky speaks to the nation. The gravity of the situation looks to have really gotten to him.

    "Today I initiated a phone conversation with the president of the Russian Federation. The result was silence. Although it's the Donbas where there should be silence."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496628727077380098
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,310
    Farooq said:

    Russia has issued a NOTAM closing the airspace along the Ukrainian border.

    Does this mean Russia is only intending to kill people on the ground this time, instead of shooting down passenger jets? I guess we can all celebrate progress, no matter how pitiful.
    Actually the Ukrainians issued a NOTAM on closing its Eastern airports. In effect what it was saying was anything in the impacted area will probably been seen as hostile.

    On the wider history, one Barack Obama has something to answer for. The Obama policy to Russia was one of' 'if we ignore it they will stop the provocations' . Its no mistake Putin started this ramp up over Ukraine early on in Biden's tenure but it turns out the former vice president is a little bit sterner than his former boss who spent 4 years doing next to fuck all on this front.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    I remember being told on here that China was by far the only substantial threat to the UK, and hence no need to worry about about our European relationships.
    Somewhat different, don't you think?
    In what way.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Farooq said:

    A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog

    The consensus on here very recently was "nothing to do with us".
    I wonder how many will feel the same next week.
    If all those five million are indeed displaced and decide to flee the country, then the rest of Europe is going to have an enormous challenge finding them all food, shelter, care, and probably permanent resettlement.

    The UK constitutes about 7% of the population of the NATO alliance. 7% of 5,000,000 is about 350,000 people. That's an awful lot of camp beds and leisure centre sports halls. And our wretched Government hasn't even been able to look after a few thousand Afghans properly.
    Probably best we don't take any refugees in at all. The shock of seeing white people treated like they're barely human will be too much for some people.
    If it comes to it we are going to have to. Setting aside any moral considerations, which do not matter to this Government, Johnson is not going to be able to wibble his way pathetically out of burden sharing through this disaster. Asking Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania to accommodate all of these people in tent cities just across the border is not a sustainable position.
  • "We will defend ourselves. When you attack, you will see our faces, not our backs."

    Zelensky
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,576

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    I remember being told on here that China was by far the only substantial threat to the UK, and hence no need to worry about about our European relationships.
    Somewhat different, don't you think?
    In what way.
    One of them was from a candidate to be the president of the US, the other was from a random nobody on an obscure blog.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This has to go down as another massive failure for Western intelligence. The problem is they spent most of the time after 9/11 spying on the computers and devices of their own citizens. According to Adam Curtis, they found absolutely nothing of any use by doing so. (The only thing they did discover was that people were using them to engage in long-distance "relationships", according to Curtis).

    Remember Obama's put down of Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was a bigger threat than Al Qaeda.
    I remember being told on here that China was by far the only substantial threat to the UK, and hence no need to worry about about our European relationships.
    Somewhat different, don't you think?
    In what way.
    One of them was from a candidate to be the president of the US, the other was from a random nobody on an obscure blog.
    Random nobodies.
    Many of whom are still posting on here.
  • pigeon said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Farooq said:

    A full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine would create one of the largest refugee crises in the world, with as many as five million people displaced, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said on Wednesday.

    NY Times blog

    The consensus on here very recently was "nothing to do with us".
    I wonder how many will feel the same next week.
    If all those five million are indeed displaced and decide to flee the country, then the rest of Europe is going to have an enormous challenge finding them all food, shelter, care, and probably permanent resettlement.

    The UK constitutes about 7% of the population of the NATO alliance. 7% of 5,000,000 is about 350,000 people. That's an awful lot of camp beds and leisure centre sports halls. And our wretched Government hasn't even been able to look after a few thousand Afghans properly.
    Probably best we don't take any refugees in at all. The shock of seeing white people treated like they're barely human will be too much for some people.
    If it comes to it we are going to have to. Setting aside any moral considerations, which do not matter to this Government, Johnson is not going to be able to wibble his way pathetically out of burden sharing through this disaster. Asking Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania to accommodate all of these people in tent cities just across the border is not a sustainable position.
    Being flippant, there is plenty of empty land available where Johnson promised HS2 and its stations for the North was going to be.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    Cyclefree said:


    It is my eldest's 29th birthday today.

    Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that at much the same age as I was when he came along, he would be looking at the obliteration of a nation state by an aggressive power in Europe.

    Awful. Truly awful.

    I have such happy memories of Kiev.

    It does feel, in the past few years, as if we are returning to a world of authoritarian aggression and democratic weakness more familiar to my parents and grand-parents when young.

    I really fear that if Putin is successful in Ukraine he will not stop there. And then what? Worrying times.

    Yes indeed. However it is worth pointing out perhaps that this is a continuation of an 'invasion' that started in 2014.
  • The US sent Javelins. The UK sent NLAWs. Turkey sent Bayraktars. Latvia sent Stingers. Poland sent Pioruns. Germany sent thoughts and prayers.

    https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1496624138999537666
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    Cyclefree said:


    It is my eldest's 29th birthday today.

    Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that at much the same age as I was when he came along, he would be looking at the obliteration of a nation state by an aggressive power in Europe.

    Awful. Truly awful.

    I have such happy memories of Kiev.

    It does feel, in the past few years, as if we are returning to a world of authoritarian aggression and democratic weakness more familiar to my parents and grand-parents when young.

    I really fear that if Putin is successful in Ukraine he will not stop there. And then what? Worrying times.

    Moldova has had its chips. If the Finns have any sense they'll ask to be fast-tracked into NATO. After that, a new Cold War and a new Iron Curtain.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,165
    You would not want to start with where we are, but let’s assume Russia invades the “rest of the Donbas”.

    We (the West) will need to arm rump Ukraine to the teeth and expend every effort to bring into the European economic system.

    If Putin goes further, and takes Kiev etc, we’re back to Cold War level confrontation.
This discussion has been closed.