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It’s the economy again, stupid – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,823
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,903
    edited February 2022
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    valleyboy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Excuse me for being self-indulgent but pb is nothing if not eclectic. I know Sunday evenings is a classic crisis moment but I'm honestly tempted to phone in the office tomorrow and quit my job with immediate effect. Frankly, I've had it. Bit risky but I have savings to tide me over for quite a bit and I honestly think if I simply carry on with the same cycle of drudgery nothing will ever change. Stare in to the abyss long enough and the abyss with stare back in to you.

    I know the feeling, and believe me I have been very fucking tempted myself over the last few months. In fact, one of the things I want to do this week is work out what my minimum required income from self employment would need to be if I go down that route.

    However:

    I would strongly advise you to serve out any notice period. Don't burn your bridges too far yet. You may need a reference from them later.
    Go for it.
    I quit a cushy civil service job after 20 years to run my own business. Had its ups and downs, but never regretted for a moment.
    At the moment I'm looking at private tutoring. I already do some and quite enjoy it. I can offer it to A-level in four, possibly five subjects, and it would leave me more time during the day itself to do other things. I could also top that up with some more music, particularly weddings and funerals, which can be quite lucrative if you get enough of them.

    It isn't particularly secure as an income. However, it would be a much pleasanter life than the hell hole teaching has become due to the endless stream of fuckups perpetrated by the DfE, Ofqual and OFSTED, which included this week a decision to publicly ban the teaching of academic history. (It wasn't deliberate, it's just they're very dim and don't realise what they said.)

    But I need to do the sums first.

    Even if I do decide to stay on in teaching however, I will definitely be looking to go part time, as this just isn't worth it.
    27 months to go for me, not that I am counting.

    Having the finances to be able to walk away is a great tonic. Not everyone has that option, but life is too short to spend it doing something that you hate.

    Sounds like @ydoethur doesn't hate teaching. He hates the 'blob' superstructure around teaching these days.

    We seem to live in an age where professionals are not trusted. they must be controlled at all times by management tick box.
    I don't mind being managed, as long as the managers know what they're doing. I'll take instructions from my current Head, for example, as she's been in this job for 35 years and knows her stuff.

    The problem is that a great many other people giving me orders don't.
    This problem is not unique to teaching though. It's everywhere. A fact of life perhaps. I would say that being able to adapt to being poorly managed is an essential survival skill. That and not taking work too seriously.
    The problem with this argument is you cannot do teaching without taking it seriously. It really is a job that dominates your life, or it is a job that you do badly. There is no middle course.

    And that's why so many people leave it. They either get fed up with being rubbish, or they get fed up with being exhausted and having no life.
    Yes I can certainly see that and have heard similar many times. It does sound like your departure would be a loss to the people you are teaching though.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,109
    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,941
    Farooq said:

    I've just been asked to get involved in planning our village celebrations for HMQ's Platinum Jubilee.

    I feel we may need to think of a contingency plan, in case of... you know.

    Just make sure everything can be repurposed to a coronation party.
    I find it really weird that people would even think about turning up to something like this, but I hope you have fun with it.
    Me too tbh but I am Secretary of the Village Hall so I shall have to try to submerge my republican tendencies in community spirit (aka gin, hopefully)
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,823

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Death? I didn't say anything about him torn limb from limb by an angry mob. You merely inferred it.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Death? I didn't say anything about him torn limb from limb by an angry mob. You merely inferred it.
    Because without an escape that's almost invariably how a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those who were murdered generally ends in these scenarios.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    To be fair to Sir Keir weren't these private prosecutions?

    So nothing to do with the DPP or its remit?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,011
    .

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Joe Biden has played a blinder.

    I bet Putin fell for that Sleepy Joe meme bollocks.
    Johnson's World War II speech yesterday was possibly a game changer.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    well then , they need sacking along with anyone in the legal chain allowing it to get to the state it did. What a pathetic legal system
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,903

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    You would need to pick apart the original trials to understand what went so badly wrong. Presumably, juries convicted on the basis of evidence from 'expert witnesses'.



  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    well then , they need sacking along with anyone in the legal chain allowing it to get to the state it did. What a pathetic legal system
    The government are looking at changing the rules on private prosecutions following the Post Office fiasco.

    https://committees.parliament.uk/work/401/private-prosecutions-safeguards/news/149646/government-commits-to-change-law-to-make-private-prosecutions-fairer/
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,463
    darkage said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    You would need to pick apart the original trials to understand what went so badly wrong. Presumably, juries convicted on the basis of evidence from 'expert witnesses'.
    Yes, for all the talk about executives, the first port of call are those who gave evidence at the trials. Jurors tend to be risk averse, so presumably someone gave some strong evidence to get these convictions.

    Start with those people, and see what/who they cough up.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,823

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Death? I didn't say anything about him torn limb from limb by an angry mob. You merely inferred it.
    Because without an escape that's almost invariably how a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those who were murdered generally ends in these scenarios.
    Oh dear, that would be awful, just awful I tell you.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,849

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Weren't they private prosecutions?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    I've just been asked to get involved in planning our village celebrations for HMQ's Platinum Jubilee.

    I feel we may need to think of a contingency plan, in case of... you know.

    Yes, it is an obvious potential flaw in the plan for national celebrations.
    I think they are prepared for it - commemoration rather than celebration.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,123
    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Promising start, but that last paragraph is utter balls.
    True that in the ‘old days’ we didn’t have computer systems to be dodgy, but that’s about it.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,293
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    The question is, can Putin afford to back down without losing his job? If he thinks he can walk away from this and still retain control of government, or at worst retire to his dacha somewhere to enjoy his billions, he can back down.

    If on the other hand backing down here leads him to either a Ceausescu or even Beria moment, he might as well invade and see where the chips fall.

    For that reason I think he will invade. Even if he loses, it's no worse than the other possible outcomes.
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Death? I didn't say anything about him torn limb from limb by an angry mob. You merely inferred it.
    Because without an escape that's almost invariably how a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those who were murdered generally ends in these scenarios.
    Oh dear, that would be awful, just awful I tell you.
    As someone who opposes the death penalty, I think so yes.

    If you believe in the death penalty then ...
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,176

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Inflation is a problem but Sunak's rebate for gas and electricity consumers in the autumn should help. Most of the swing voters who might go to Labour over the economy and NI rise have likely already gone, the 34% still voting Tory will generally do so regardless as they are conservative in the culture wars, ie almost all Leavers and anti Covid restrictions and sceptical of Wokeism.

    As for MPs pay, other public sector workers have had a rise so no reason they should be exempt

    I'm not wholly convinced - the elderly are also influenced by what their children and grandchildren tell them. If they start hearing real economic hardship within their families, it may yet count against Sunak and the Conservatives.

    Up to now, the cash savings accumulated by many middle class households during the virus has cushioned the blow of inflation but those reserves will be consumed by overpriced holidays and a return to full-blooded consumption which in turn which help fuel more inflation.

    My local Tesco's now at 143.9p for petrol - 4p off its all time high just before the 2008 financial crash when oil prices were much higher (but of course sterling hadn't had the post-Referendum devaluation).

    The other problem is a 2% inflation and 5% wage rises keeps everyone happy - it doesn't work so well the other way and savings rates remain miserably low. Try seeing what an ISA or Premium Bonds will get you these days.
    Well, the hardship of the young hasn't melted the hearts of the old yet, so we shall see.

    The key factor for the Tory core vote is continual house price inflation: the middle class elderly accumulate asset wealth, which they (and the heirs) expect to be passed down the generations as close to intact as possible. If the Tories want to make sure that all the olds turn out to bolster their support at the next election, they should go into it with a headline promise to scrap inheritance tax, backed up by more bribes for pensioners.

    The Tories need to expand home ownership as far as they can. Their future depends on it.
    Would be a huge vote winner with an entire disenfranchised generation.

    Trouble is, it means massive building and that means in places where NIMBY tories don't want them. I don't see a solution without going onto brownfield AND greenfield sites.

    Too many people chasing too few goods is basic A level economics but it holds good for an island which is small and over-populated.

    The other solution is to turn Britain into such a shitshow that people won't want to live here anymore. Oh wait ...
    One of the big vote winners for the Lib Dems in Chesham was opposing housing development. There are plenty of homes available for reasonable prices but they are not where the people want to make a,life.
    There aren't that many homes available at reasonable prices. The population of the UK has increased by nearly 20% in recent years but the housing supply hasn't. The idea of plenty of spare houses being available is a very bad joke.
    There are in the North East, North West, Wales, Scotland and other parts of the country. There just aren’t that many affordable ones where people want to buy.
    Is this a bad joke?

    I live in the North West, please advise where in the North West there are plenty of spare houses available at reasonable prices? There simply aren't.

    House prices may be lower in the NW but so too are incomes. The house price to earnings ratio up here is well above what it was nationwide at the turn of the century.

    You are delusional if you think there's an abundance of affordable homes anywhere. We need much, much more construction to make up the deficit of population growth not being matched by housing growth in recent decades.
    Colne
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    darkage said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    You would need to pick apart the original trials to understand what went so badly wrong. Presumably, juries convicted on the basis of evidence from 'expert witnesses'.
    Yes, for all the talk about executives, the first port of call are those who gave evidence at the trials. Jurors tend to be risk averse, so presumably someone gave some strong evidence to get these convictions.

    Start with those people, and see what/who they cough up.
    Read this and you know who they should go after.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52905378
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,941
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Glad to see you have dropped your Putin hero-worship.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Joe Biden has played a blinder.

    I bet Putin fell for that Sleepy Joe meme bollocks.
    "Aha, falling asleep at COP26 was all part of my secret plan! Also that shit was very dull."
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,591
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Promising start, but that last paragraph is utter balls.
    True that in the ‘old days’ we didn’t have computer systems to be dodgy, but that’s about it.
    Yes, I agree. We're certainly much more sceptical of official narratives these days - perhaps too much so, as vaccine sceptics and other nutters have shown over the last year.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,903
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    At the moment it does look like he has been outwitted by 'sleepy joe', but all that can change.
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,225

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Joe Biden has played a blinder.

    I bet Putin fell for that Sleepy Joe meme bollocks.
    The US has actually formed up what appears to have a very sound response. Given Biden's Democrat predecessor's weak approach perhaps Putin thought such passivity would be the order of the day this time.

    A lot though depends on what constitutes a win. I have no doubt a direct military attack on Ukraine is in the top 2 options but am less sure that will involve a full scale invasion & occupation. An easier win for Putin is occupy / annex the breakaway republics. The Ukrainians can't/won't do much, sanctions may come but its consequential risk is not as heavy.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Promising start, but that last paragraph is utter balls.
    True that in the ‘old days’ we didn’t have computer systems to be dodgy, but that’s about it.
    I don't even know what that 'nobody reads Sherlock Holmes' bit is about. Detective fiction, be it books or TV is one of the most popular genres out there. Christ, in books alone you cannot move without finding stories about Roman nobles, ancient greek playwrights or 12th century Benedictine monks solving crimes, never mind Holmes, one of the most enduring characters in fiction.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,823

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    I see tomorrow is the 8th anniversary of the ousting of President Yanukovych, who now lives in Russia, but still claims the Ukranian Presidency.

    So war starts at midnight?

    It's 23:13 in Kyiv
    Though he fled on the 22nd Feb.
    It's a regret that he managed to get away to be honest. He should have faced a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those people who were murdered in 2014.
    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Death? I didn't say anything about him torn limb from limb by an angry mob. You merely inferred it.
    Because without an escape that's almost invariably how a swift and pitiless downfall at the hands of the families of those who were murdered generally ends in these scenarios.
    Oh dear, that would be awful, just awful I tell you.
    As someone who opposes the death penalty, I think so yes.

    If you believe in the death penalty then ...
    I believe if you turn the guns of the state on the people, the people have an absolute right to defend themselves.

    Violence is a last resort, but it IS a resort.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,849
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    At the moment it does look like he has been outwitted by 'sleepy joe', but all that can change.
    To give Biden his due, he has a long history of consensus building behind him. He doesn't wantonly insult allies, or kiss Putins arse unlike his predecessor
  • Options
    AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    At the moment it does look like he has been outwitted by 'sleepy joe', but all that can change.
    If he does back down, the best way is just to keep the news coming (e.g. extended drills) but in less and less headline-grabbing ways. Then he can slowly reduce forces by giving vacation to 5% of troops across all units. Then the odd unit gets moved. Then the backdown only gets reported 6 months down the line in Foreign Policy Magazine rather than being international news.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315
    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    The question is, can Putin afford to back down without losing his job? If he thinks he can walk away from this and still retain control of government, or at worst retire to his dacha somewhere to enjoy his billions, he can back down.

    If on the other hand backing down here leads him to either a Ceausescu or even Beria moment, he might as well invade and see where the chips fall.

    For that reason I think he will invade. Even if he loses, it's no worse than the other possible outcomes.
    Beria had a lot of elites who wanted to take him down. Ceausescu was a lot weaker than he thought. Is Putin so weak if he backs down now? Given he insists he has not been planning an invasion (however ludicrously) marshalling an explanation as to why he isn't I'd assume would be easier.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,705
    edited February 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles will probably turn out to be a slightly more popular king than it appears now. An even more outspokenly multicultural view on religion and environmentalism than his mother, for the left, and an old-Britain traditionalism on issues like architecture, and somewhat general rural-tweediness, for the right. Quite a reasonable balance and mix, in fact.

    Yes, I think Charles will be a decent enough king though probably not so popular. Not that popularity matters, we have had plenty of unpopular monarchs over the years. Republicanism is nothing new.
    I also don't think Charles would have prorogued Parliament as the Queen did (not least as he is probably a closet Remainer while the Queen was more pro Brexit).
    Charles would have no choice . He couldn’t refuse and put himself in the middle of a political storm .
    Proroguing Parliament is not the same as refusing to sign an Act passed by Parliament. Even the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional.

    Remember Charles is a Cambridge graduate while the Queen never went to university, he will be more aware when he can use his powers and not
    Cambridge graduate? I wonder how he achieved admission to Fen poly? I got 4A’s at A level, with a distinction in the chemistry special paper and still didn’t get in. Reckon he exceeded my grades?
    I believe HMQ got some pretty solid grounding in constitutional law from some distinguished private tutors. Charlie is patently thick as fuck, Cambridge or not.
    I have heard similar, via a friend who knew one of his tutors.
    Odd then, that when he has often spoken out on 'unfashionable' topics, such as the environment (built and natural), he has generally been proven to be on the 'right' side.
    Actually I partly agree with this. I think the reason is his youth in the 1960's - he seemed to have a formative, slightly more radical period, and then a more traditionalist period. As a result, however intelligent he is or not, I think his overall perspective on a lot of things looks quite well-balanced.
    I don't think the environment stuff was connected with the 60s counterculture. His dad was into it as was that utter windbag Laurence Van Der post which is more likely where he got it. Plus he was fanatically dedicated to hunting foxes when that was a thing which is actually profoundly compatible with environmentalism (you need an ecosystem which supports foxes in order to do it) but not v countercultural.
    I'm not sure i'd agree there. His interest in Eastern religions and organic farming is also entirely of a piece with a formative youth in the late '60s and turn of the '70s, when he was widely considered to have gone through that more exploratory period. The genuine interest in architecture, rural life and more traditional themes seems largely to come later.
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
  • Options
    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,232
    6 polls have been published over the last 10 days.
    Average Labour lead = 4.8%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,849
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    It is no doubt a systems failure, quite likely more than one system.

    For example, there was no external body able to hold the Post Office to account. That's a systems failure.

    There is no external body that monitors appointments to senior positions in organisations like the Post Office. Again, that is a systems failure.

    There is a system of patronage for those with the right connections. When the head of the Post Office, Paula Vennels, left the Post Office in 2019 she joined the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust as its Chair, a position requiring considerable executive skills. It is difficult to see how that appointment could have survived serious professional scrutiny in the light of the mess she was known to be leaving behind at the Post Office.

    Another systems failure.

    On 7 Feb 2019 she was appointed as a non-executive board member to the Cabinet Office. Systems failure.

    In the 2019 New Year Honours, she was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) "for services to the Post Office and to charity.

    The Honours system is another we ought to call time on.

    For some semblance of balance, I should add that the the GPO and Ms Vennels are by no means the only ones to come out of the scandal badly. Don't even get me started on Horizon, Fujitsu and the computer people.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Wonder that you still know how to breathe time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,109
    Aslan said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    At the moment it does look like he has been outwitted by 'sleepy joe', but all that can change.
    If he does back down, the best way is just to keep the news coming (e.g. extended drills) but in less and less headline-grabbing ways. Then he can slowly reduce forces by giving vacation to 5% of troops across all units. Then the odd unit gets moved. Then the backdown only gets reported 6 months down the line in Foreign Policy Magazine rather than being international news.
    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,849
    Yokes said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Joe Biden has played a blinder.

    I bet Putin fell for that Sleepy Joe meme bollocks.
    The US has actually formed up what appears to have a very sound response. Given Biden's Democrat predecessor's weak approach perhaps Putin thought such passivity would be the order of the day this time.

    A lot though depends on what constitutes a win. I have no doubt a direct military attack on Ukraine is in the top 2 options but am less sure that will involve a full scale invasion & occupation. An easier win for Putin is occupy / annex the breakaway republics. The Ukrainians can't/won't do much, sanctions may come but its consequential risk is not as heavy.

    I suspect the Voronezh forces will move south, to the Azov coast, while the Rostov forces move west into the republics. The encirclement of the main Ukranian forces there could happen quite quickly. The other forces may launch diversionary attacks, but not get bogged down in occupation.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,123
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Weren't they private prosecutions?
    Most, though not quite all.

    Note also that the Post Office conducted the bulk of the investigations, too, having unusually broad access to investigatory facilities.
    https://insights.doughtystreet.co.uk/post/102gtzh/private-prosecutions-after-the-post-office-debacle
    … Following full privatisation in 2015 the Royal Mail Group retained its investigative branch and its legal department and continued to prosecute about 150 cases per year as a private prosecutor. While being granted no investigative powers it has regularly undertaken joint investigations with the police and other investigative bodies that do have statutory investigative powers. It was granted access to the Police National Computer system for intelligence and prosecution purposes. It had financial investigators appointed by the National Crime Agency for the purposes of undertaking financial investigations for restraint and confiscation proceedings, and Royal Mail Group was included within the list of “Relevant Public Authorities” under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 designated to grant authorisations for the carrying out of directed surveillance to investigate crime…
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,104
    Evening all :)

    Fascinating GESOP poll from Spain this evening - they don't have an election until the end of 2023 but some interesting political developments and trends:

    PSOE: 26.0% (-2.0)
    PP: 20.6% (-0.2)
    VOX: 18.1% (+3.1)
    United Podemos: 12.5% (-0.4)
    More Country (MP): 3.8% (+1.4)
    Citizens: 3.3% (-3.5)
    Republican Left (Catalonia): 3.0% (-0.6)

    The Spanish Congress of Deputies has 349 members - 155 of which form the Government (PSOE and PP) but supported by 33 (including 13 from the Republican Left and 2 from More Country) and 161 the Opposition (PP, VOX, Citizens and 12 others).

    Could VOX yet challenge PP for second place? It would be a game-changing moment but the gap is closing and as last Sunday's Castile & Leon regional election showed, PP are struggling to make headway against PSOE while VOX is clearly making big strides and that will be a concern for PP leader Casado if it leaves his only path to Government through VOX or if he were forced to decide whether to support a VOX-led minority administration.

    Sanchez can feel reasonably happy - UP are holding up well and with allies like MP making headway on the Green left, the opportunity to build a similar coalition to the current Government clearly still exists and the advance of VOX will be concentrating minds on the left.

    Interestingly, in the aftermath of the Castile & Leon vote last weekend, the local PP leadership have kept VOX at arm's length though the local VOX leader wants a similar arrangement with PP as that enjoyed by Citizens so the VOX leader becomes the Vice-President for the region.

    Sanchez has offered, on the part of PSOE, to abstain on the formation of a minority PP Government in Castile & Leon on condition nationally PP ends all ties with VOX - whether this clears the way for a possible Spanish "Grand Coalition" next time is debatable but it's a contingency IF VOX were to overtake PP and take second place.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Glad to see you have dropped your Putin hero-worship.
    When yer strong man becomes a loser…
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2022

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    I defer to your legal knowledge, but I swear I read/heard that, previously. I think it was on the radio 4 series a year or so ago.

    Anyways
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,354
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Well I hope so, but it's a bit early to think so. All the false flag provocation stuff has started in time for an invasion shortly after the end of the Winter Olympics, which was the timing mooted by some a few weeks ago.

    If Russian tanks are in Kyiv in time for Shrove Tuesday, and the West is left looking on rather impotently, I reckon a fair few people will say of Biden, he couldn't stop the Taliban, he couldn't stop the Russians, who will he fail to stop next?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315
    Leon said:

    Aslan said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    At the moment it does look like he has been outwitted by 'sleepy joe', but all that can change.
    If he does back down, the best way is just to keep the news coming (e.g. extended drills) but in less and less headline-grabbing ways. Then he can slowly reduce forces by giving vacation to 5% of troops across all units. Then the odd unit gets moved. Then the backdown only gets reported 6 months down the line in Foreign Policy Magazine rather than being international news.
    Putin is 69. His time nears an end
    Mugabe was still dictatoring into his 90s. I call that a message of hope for us all as to what we can still achieve.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315
    ping said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    I defer to your legal knowledge
    Just be thankful he didn't charge for it. Lawyer, after all.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,903

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    The question that troubles me (and presumably everyone else who follows the detail of this case) is why the Post Office sidelined the CPO and presumably also the police and went to the enormous expense of pursuing private prosecutions in these cases.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,131
    kle4 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    The question is, can Putin afford to back down without losing his job? If he thinks he can walk away from this and still retain control of government, or at worst retire to his dacha somewhere to enjoy his billions, he can back down.

    If on the other hand backing down here leads him to either a Ceausescu or even Beria moment, he might as well invade and see where the chips fall.

    For that reason I think he will invade. Even if he loses, it's no worse than the other possible outcomes.
    Beria had a lot of elites who wanted to take him down. Ceausescu was a lot weaker than he thought. Is Putin so weak if he backs down now? Given he insists he has not been planning an invasion (however ludicrously) marshalling an explanation as to why he isn't I'd assume would be easier.
    Maybe 'the heads of the five families' have been encouraging him to pressure Zelensky who's been taking on the oligarchs.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-16/zelenskiy-targets-oligarchs-as-world-focused-on-russian-buildup
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,231
    Taz said:

    kyf_100 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Aslan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    In other news, Camden's night life is back. Been out there Friday last week with my friends and then again yesterday with my wife's friends. Bars and pubs are all packed, not many people milling about outdoors but everywhere had queues to get in, The Underworld has been refurbished and you can wear canvas shoes risk free and use the gents.

    Londoners have got their confidence back. What I don't see as much is out of towners like people from Essex heading into Liverpool Street on Fridays for a night in one of Leicester Square's more commercial bars/clubs. Hopefully as we head into the summer this crowd will be back too, despite the fights/piss/rowdiness London needs the two sizes too small polo shirt wearing crowd.

    I have seen the same. Camden Market today is RAMMED despite the lousy weather: completely back to pre-pandemic levels, indeed possibly busier than normal for a very wintry, wet Sunday. Barely possible to drive through, all the pubs full at 4.30pm

    Another thing I have noticed: gentrification has sped along, up from Camden High Street, down Kentish Town Road, all the way to Tufnell Park and even tentatively as far as - yes - Archway, previously a dystopian urban Toilet.

    This seems to be a post-demic thing, or at least the process has been vastly speeded up by the plague. What used to be crappy pound stores, betting shops, charity outlets, is now all trendy bars, Vietnamese pho pop-ups, organic grocers, new cafes, wine shops, fancy clothes stores.

    Intriguing

    Of course this leaves the Big Question: how is CENTRAL London doing?
    The City was still incredibly quiet the last time I was there a couple of weeks ago. And Canary Wharf.
    Yes, it's a major concern. Central London is THE motor

    We need tourists back

    Commuters are definitely returning
    Out here in the blue wall, people are quietly having fun while remaining cautious in shops - masks almost universal in Sainsbury. A friend's funeral is getting a good turnout, but some of the elderly folk are not coming. Generally it all seems quite sensible - enjoy life as you usually would, but if you're concerned about gettting the bug, avoid unnecessary exposure that doesn't stop you having fun.

    My office will reopen at the end of March, with most people planning to come in two days a week, permanently - nobody is very keen, but it 's recognised that 100% wfh has its drawbacks. An interesting side-effect has been that some people are working overtime as needed without claiming TOIL - as one said, "I'm saving two hours a day on commuting, I'm not fussed if I need to spend half an hour extra finishing a report."
    Why are people still wearing masks in shops ?

    Do they actually think it will do any good or has it become some sort of weird social habit ?
    Because they do indeed do good.

    I gave someone a piece of my mind yesterday who came near me without a mask. Thankfully 80%+ of people around here are all still wearing masks and many do so even outdoors.

    Why? Because we know that this killer virus isn't done with us yet and we're not selfish.
    In what context did you give them a piece of your mind? In hospital? Then fair enough. Almost anywhere else you are bang out of order. And rude to be honest.
    There are far more not wearing masks and I simply do not see anyone brave or foolish enough to challenge them
    Anyone comes near me in a shop without a mask they get a broadside. And my titanium tipped pole.

    But fortunately most everyone wears them around here and virtually all the shop assistants. Whenever anyone approaches on the pavement we all cross the road: it has become a thing.

    If you did that to me you'd get a punch in the face tbh. A very, very hard punch in the face.
    Gloating about violence. How pathetic.
    No gloating, just reality. Anyone who attacks me physically for not wearing a mask would get a retaliation.
    That just makes you sound like a thug. Someone hits you (presumably lightly) with a pole, and you punch them hard in the face.

    If you're like that in irl, then you're a nutter. If you're not like that, then you're just a prick on the Internet pretending to be a hard man.
    Although it is an offence to hit somebody with a pole so it might legitimately be argued punching them back is self defence.
    It *might*, although you are very unlikely to be killed by being hit with a walking pole. A smack to the face or head can kill.

    As ever in a violent situation, be the bigger man and de-escalate if you can. Only attack back if you genuinely feel threatened.

    Heathener is in the wrong. Max attacking back - harder - would also be in the wrong. Possibly more wrong.
    As the saying goes, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Then the fight or flight adrenaline kicks in and you either find yourself running away, or swinging your fists. It's not something you think about, it's just automatic.

    However, as a general rule, if you don't want to get punched in the face, don't hit people with sticks.
    I've always managed to steer clear of violent situations. The closest I came was when I was a teenager and was walking down the street in my home town and saw a group of neds hassling a guy walking down the street some way ahead of me. The situation appeared to be escalating and I realised that the guy they were picking on was my older brother, who is a rather eccentric guy who neds would often feel a compulsive need to hassle when we were younger.
    Seeing as how I am not a very brave person or at all handy in a fight I was worried that my natural inclination would have been to leave my brother to his fate but I am happy to say that without really thinking about what I was doing I immediately went to his aid. I found myself telling the schemie fucks that they shouldn't start anything because I'd seen the polis by the garage round the corner, and luckily they believed me and fucked off.
    Brotherly love is so moving. My fav youtube video of it in sport!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liCRrheKIOI
    Do you think I would leave you dying
    When there’s room on my horse for two.
    Quoting Rolf Harris on little boys? 😳😳
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,849
    darkage said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    The question that troubles me (and presumably everyone else who follows the detail of this case) is why the Post Office sidelined the CPO and presumably also the police and went to the enormous expense of pursuing private prosecutions in these cases.
    The other thing that strikes me is that the convicted seem to have no unexplained assets. If they had embezzled, then there would have been some evidence of unaffordable lifestyle.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,232
    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,104
    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles will probably turn out to be a slightly more popular king than it appears now. An even more outspokenly multicultural view on religion and environmentalism than his mother, for the left, and an old-Britain traditionalism on issues like architecture, and somewhat general rural-tweediness, for the right. Quite a reasonable balance and mix, in fact.

    Yes, I think Charles will be a decent enough king though probably not so popular. Not that popularity matters, we have had plenty of unpopular monarchs over the years. Republicanism is nothing new.
    I also don't think Charles would have prorogued Parliament as the Queen did (not least as he is probably a closet Remainer while the Queen was more pro Brexit).
    Charles would have no choice . He couldn’t refuse and put himself in the middle of a political storm .
    Proroguing Parliament is not the same as refusing to sign an Act passed by Parliament. Even the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional.

    Remember Charles is a Cambridge graduate while the Queen never went to university, he will be more aware when he can use his powers and not
    Cambridge graduate? I wonder how he achieved admission to Fen poly? I got 4A’s at A level, with a distinction in the chemistry special paper and still didn’t get in. Reckon he exceeded my grades?
    I believe HMQ got some pretty solid grounding in constitutional law from some distinguished private tutors. Charlie is patently thick as fuck, Cambridge or not.
    I have heard similar, via a friend who knew one of his tutors.
    Odd then, that when he has often spoken out on 'unfashionable' topics, such as the environment (built and natural), he has generally been proven to be on the 'right' side.
    Actually I partly agree with this. I think the reason is his youth in the 1960's - he seemed to have a formative, slightly more radical period, and then a more traditionalist period. As a result, however intelligent he is or not, I think his overall perspective on a lot of things looks quite well-balanced.
    I don't think the environment stuff was connected with the 60s counterculture. His dad was into it as was that utter windbag Laurence Van Der post which is more likely where he got it. Plus he was fanatically dedicated to hunting foxes when that was a thing which is actually profoundly compatible with environmentalism (you need an ecosystem which supports foxes in order to do it) but not v countercultural.
    I'm not sure i'd agree there. His interest in Eastern religions and organic farming is also entirely of a piece with a formative youth in the late '60s and turn of the '70s, when he was widely considered to have gone through that more exploratory period. The genuine interest in architecture, rural life and more traditional themes seems largely to come later.
    Disagree. The English upper classes are so much about going out and killing stuff, you just wouldn't believe. The world wildlife fund was basically Prince Phillip noticing there weren't as many elephants to shoot as there used to be.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,565
    Bloody snowing hard here now.
    Makes a pleasant change from the torrential rain all day...
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,849
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    It is a widely held theory.

    For a humble flintknapper, you think deeply.
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,225
    If anyone is wondering where the US air intelligence gathering effort is focussed at watching after dark movements around Ukraine, take a look at any ADSB tracking site and you will see FORTE11 cruising up and down a particular stretch. This route tonight is a tighter circuit than these night flights usually do.

    The particular fear is an accumulation of some seriously heavy strike forces assembled across a line parallel with Belgorod & Kursk on the Russian side and gradually moving closer to the border over recent days.

    As an aside, the NATO operated drone fleet appears to be joining the watch. Up to this point its pretty much been all US & UK manned & unmanned aircraft.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,123
    edited February 2022
    darkage said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    The question that troubles me (and presumably everyone else who follows the detail of this case) is why the Post Office sidelined the CPO and presumably also the police and went to the enormous expense of pursuing private prosecutions in these cases.
    Private prosecutions are increasingly common, thanks to constraints on CPS funding. The Post Office is far from the only organisation bringing private prosecutions (see eg local authorities, or the RSPCA…).

    Parliament’s Justice Committee concluded that the oversight of the process is inadequate:
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmjust/497/49703.htm

    The courts are effectively the regulators of private prosecutions, but for obvious reasons that regulation is not systematic.
    The CPS has powers to intervene in private prosecutions in particular circumstances, but has no overall regulatory role at all.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
    The crisis has in many respects been well reported but I would have liked to have heard more about what is going on within the Kremlin and just how much pressure Putin is under from those that keep him in place.

    Any decent reports on this you can recommend? I would be particularly interested in learning about the role of the Wagner Group and its sponsors.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,123

    ..

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    Joe Biden has played a blinder.

    I bet Putin fell for that Sleepy Joe meme bollocks.
    Sometimes woke beats volk.
    Sleepy Joe, obviously, is barely woke.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,683
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    It is no doubt a systems failure, quite likely more than one system.

    For example, there was no external body able to hold the Post Office to account. That's a systems failure.

    There is no external body that monitors appointments to senior positions in organisations like the Post Office. Again, that is a systems failure.

    There is a system of patronage for those with the right connections. When the head of the Post Office, Paula Vennels, left the Post Office in 2019 she joined the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust as its Chair, a position requiring considerable executive skills. It is difficult to see how that appointment could have survived serious professional scrutiny in the light of the mess she was known to be leaving behind at the Post Office.

    Another systems failure.

    On 7 Feb 2019 she was appointed as a non-executive board member to the Cabinet Office. Systems failure.

    In the 2019 New Year Honours, she was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) "for services to the Post Office and to charity.

    The Honours system is another we ought to call time on.

    For some semblance of balance, I should add that the the GPO and Ms Vennels are by no means the only ones to come out of the scandal badly. Don't even get me started on Horizon, Fujitsu and the computer people.
    An arguably lesser example: Muriel Gray, chair of the Glasgow School of Art board of governors while two disastrous fires took place and who then walked away from that beshitted bed without taking an iota of responsibility, and is now on the board of the British Museum and BBC.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,859
    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,904
    dixiedean said:

    Bloody snowing hard here now.
    Makes a pleasant change from the torrential rain all day...

    I've just been down to look at the Mersey. Flowing furious fast and awful high. It looks like the Environment Agency were there opening the flood gates onto Sale Water Park.
    So system working as it should. No real conclusions, just awe at the power of nature and at the engineering capability of man.
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,225

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
    The crisis has in many respects been well reported but I would have liked to have heard more about what is going on within the Kremlin and just how much pressure Putin is under from those that keep him in place.

    Any decent reports on this you can recommend? I would be particularly interested in learning about the role of the Wagner Group and its sponsors.
    Wagner are an extension of the Russian government's foreign policy. Think of them like a Quango....but with guns.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    The question that troubles me (and presumably everyone else who follows the detail of this case) is why the Post Office sidelined the CPO and presumably also the police and went to the enormous expense of pursuing private prosecutions in these cases.
    The other thing that strikes me is that the convicted seem to have no unexplained assets. If they had embezzled, then there would have been some evidence of unaffordable lifestyle.
    Spot on.

    Assets are difficult to hide. Unexplained wealth attracts attention. Yet none of the alleged fraudsters displayed any of the tell-tale signs that an experienced and capable investigator would have looked for. On the contrary, the GPO staff were mostly strapped for cash, many painfully so.

    It's pretty obvious the investigators found what they were looking for because they wanted to, not because the evidence was there. That's a failure of culture as well as systems.
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    It is a widely held theory.

    For a humble flintknapper, you think deeply.
    Penetrating even.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,849
    edited February 2022
    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
    The crisis has in many respects been well reported but I would have liked to have heard more about what is going on within the Kremlin and just how much pressure Putin is under from those that keep him in place.

    Any decent reports on this you can recommend? I would be particularly interested in learning about the role of the Wagner Group and its sponsors.
    Wagner are an extension of the Russian government's foreign policy. Think of them like a Quango....but with guns.
    Yes, I kind of knew that, Yokes. But just how much control does Putin have over them?

    If they wanted him out, for example, would they have much of a problem?

    Frankly I think Putin has screwed up. War or no war, I don't see what he gets out of this. I think he's misjudged the situation and may not be that popular with his most powerful and wealthy buddies now.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,354
    kle4 said:

    ping said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    I defer to your legal knowledge
    Just be thankful he didn't charge for it. Lawyer, after all.
    Possibly the best passage in Lorna Doone.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,315

    kle4 said:

    ping said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    I defer to your legal knowledge
    Just be thankful he didn't charge for it. Lawyer, after all.
    Possibly the best passage in Lorna Doone.
    You mean it wasn't just my ready wit? That's unfortunate.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,010
    edited February 2022
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Fascinating GESOP poll from Spain this evening - they don't have an election until the end of 2023 but some interesting political developments and trends:

    PSOE: 26.0% (-2.0)
    PP: 20.6% (-0.2)
    VOX: 18.1% (+3.1)
    United Podemos: 12.5% (-0.4)
    More Country (MP): 3.8% (+1.4)
    Citizens: 3.3% (-3.5)
    Republican Left (Catalonia): 3.0% (-0.6)

    The Spanish Congress of Deputies has 349 members - 155 of which form the Government (PSOE and PP) but supported by 33 (including 13 from the Republican Left and 2 from More Country) and 161 the Opposition (PP, VOX, Citizens and 12 others).

    Could VOX yet challenge PP for second place? It would be a game-changing moment but the gap is closing and as last Sunday's Castile & Leon regional election showed, PP are struggling to make headway against PSOE while VOX is clearly making big strides and that will be a concern for PP leader Casado if it leaves his only path to Government through VOX or if he were forced to decide whether to support a VOX-led minority administration.

    Sanchez can feel reasonably happy - UP are holding up well and with allies like MP making headway on the Green left, the opportunity to build a similar coalition to the current Government clearly still exists and the advance of VOX will be concentrating minds on the left.

    Interestingly, in the aftermath of the Castile & Leon vote last weekend, the local PP leadership have kept VOX at arm's length though the local VOX leader wants a similar arrangement with PP as that enjoyed by Citizens so the VOX leader becomes the Vice-President for the region.

    Sanchez has offered, on the part of PSOE, to abstain on the formation of a minority PP Government in Castile & Leon on condition nationally PP ends all ties with VOX - whether this clears the way for a possible Spanish "Grand Coalition" next time is debatable but it's a contingency IF VOX were to overtake PP and take second place.

    It would not be too surprising, in 2 out of the 4 largest western European EU nations, France and Italy, the main centre right party, Les Republicains and Forza Italia has already been overtaken by the rightwing nationalist Le Pen's party at presidential level and Lega Nord in the Italian Parliament. If in Spain Vox overtook the PP that would see a similar trend, leaving only Germany where the main centre right party of the CDU was also the main party of the right.

    In the UK too of course the Brexit Party briefly overtook the Tories in the polls before Boris took over. In the US the GOP has increasingly been taken over by Trumpite nationalists as well. In Canada today's Conservative Party of Canada emerged after the populist right Reform Party overtook the centre right Progressive Conservatives and eventually the 2 merged
  • Options
    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
    I ended up within 1, but failed, but only after opening a map after my first three guesses.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    It is no doubt a systems failure, quite likely more than one system.

    For example, there was no external body able to hold the Post Office to account. That's a systems failure.

    There is no external body that monitors appointments to senior positions in organisations like the Post Office. Again, that is a systems failure.

    There is a system of patronage for those with the right connections. When the head of the Post Office, Paula Vennels, left the Post Office in 2019 she joined the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust as its Chair, a position requiring considerable executive skills. It is difficult to see how that appointment could have survived serious professional scrutiny in the light of the mess she was known to be leaving behind at the Post Office.

    Another systems failure.

    On 7 Feb 2019 she was appointed as a non-executive board member to the Cabinet Office. Systems failure.

    In the 2019 New Year Honours, she was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) "for services to the Post Office and to charity.

    The Honours system is another we ought to call time on.

    For some semblance of balance, I should add that the the GPO and Ms Vennels are by no means the only ones to come out of the scandal badly. Don't even get me started on Horizon, Fujitsu and the computer people.
    An arguably lesser example: Muriel Gray, chair of the Glasgow School of Art board of governors while two disastrous fires took place and who then walked away from that beshitted bed without taking an iota of responsibility, and is now on the board of the British Museum and BBC.
    There are countless examples. Would give you a few more but I'm preaching to the converted, and then there's always the nasty libel laws.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Fascinating GESOP poll from Spain this evening - they don't have an election until the end of 2023 but some interesting political developments and trends:

    PSOE: 26.0% (-2.0)
    PP: 20.6% (-0.2)
    VOX: 18.1% (+3.1)
    United Podemos: 12.5% (-0.4)
    More Country (MP): 3.8% (+1.4)
    Citizens: 3.3% (-3.5)
    Republican Left (Catalonia): 3.0% (-0.6)

    The Spanish Congress of Deputies has 349 members - 155 of which form the Government (PSOE and PP) but supported by 33 (including 13 from the Republican Left and 2 from More Country) and 161 the Opposition (PP, VOX, Citizens and 12 others).

    Could VOX yet challenge PP for second place? It would be a game-changing moment but the gap is closing and as last Sunday's Castile & Leon regional election showed, PP are struggling to make headway against PSOE while VOX is clearly making big strides and that will be a concern for PP leader Casado if it leaves his only path to Government through VOX or if he were forced to decide whether to support a VOX-led minority administration.

    Sanchez can feel reasonably happy - UP are holding up well and with allies like MP making headway on the Green left, the opportunity to build a similar coalition to the current Government clearly still exists and the advance of VOX will be concentrating minds on the left.

    Interestingly, in the aftermath of the Castile & Leon vote last weekend, the local PP leadership have kept VOX at arm's length though the local VOX leader wants a similar arrangement with PP as that enjoyed by Citizens so the VOX leader becomes the Vice-President for the region.

    Sanchez has offered, on the part of PSOE, to abstain on the formation of a minority PP Government in Castile & Leon on condition nationally PP ends all ties with VOX - whether this clears the way for a possible Spanish "Grand Coalition" next time is debatable but it's a contingency IF VOX were to overtake PP and take second place.

    It would not be too surprising, in 2 out of the 4 largest western European EU nations, France and Italy, the main centre right party, Les Republicains and Forza Italia has already been overtaken by the rightwing nationalist Le Pen's party at presidential level and Lega Nord in the Italian Parliament. If in Spain Vox overtook the PP that would see a similar trend, leaving only Germany where the main centre right party of the CDU was also the main party of the centre right.

    In the UK too of course the Brexit Party briefly overtook the Tories in the polls before Boris took over. In the US the GOP has increasingly been taken over by Trumpite nationalists as well.
    That “as well” can be read in so many ways. 😀
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,904

    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
    I ended up within 1, but failed, but only after opening a map after my first three guesses.
    Did the usual thing of leaping in without reading the instructions, hampering my early guesses a bit. But still got it in four.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,910
    edited February 2022
    darkage said:

    ping said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Peter Hitchens on the Post Office scandal.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10530885/PETER-HITCHENS-Granny-gets-gun-bunch-shameless-neo-Nazis.html

    "Elementary lesson from the Post Office scandal

    The stories of innocent postmasters and postmistresses, ruined, humiliated and, in many cases, led off to prison when they had done nothing wrong, makes me want to hit something every time I hear it.

    I am filled with admiration for those who worked for years to expose this dreadful scandal, and relieved for our society that the victims are at least being vindicated. But the pain and unjust shame endured by those caught in this horror is too appalling to think about. I do not know what punishment, or penance would be right for the executives responsible. I know that they have not experienced it.

    But I think it is one of many horrible things that probably could not have happened so easily in an older Britain. I think we have become too gullible, too ready to accept the official version of everything. And a key reason for that is that nobody reads the Sherlock Holmes stories any more. I ask around friends and colleagues, and they just haven’t and don’t."

    Is it that elementary? I think not.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Good night and enjoy your evenings.
    Its a disaster. People often (sometimes on here) say our legal system is the best in the worldor at least very good but this disaster shows it up for what it is. One ,two even maybe five postmasters could be crooks and therefore cases brought, when you get to hundreds surely there has to be a bit of common sense or humility amongst the legal chain of progression to see something is wrong and its not that every postmaster is bent. A fkin disgrace and Hitchens is bang on and Hitchens is good at this (ie a sense check when all the groupthink is the other way)
    I genuinely dont know who was DPP at the time of these cases but if Keir Starmer was anywhere near the top , to me he has more questions to answer on this than Saville, along with the case team bosses and judges frankly
    Not this bollocks again.

    The prosecutions were private prosecutions conducted by the Post Office, it had nothing to do with Starmer or any other DPP.
    That struck me as a rather odd aspect of the scandal. Seems the PO have some special status that gives them special prosecuting powers, unavailable to most other companies/individuals.
    Nope.

    Who can bring a private prosecution?

    Private prosecutions can be brought by any individual or any company under section 6(1) Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 and proceed in the same way as any prosecution brought by the Crown. In many circumstances, a private prosecution can be swifter and more efficient than one brought by the police or one of the already-overloaded enforcement agencies. It can be the logical alternative if such agencies decide that they do not have the resources to devote to your case.
    The question that troubles me (and presumably everyone else who follows the detail of this case) is why the Post Office sidelined the CPO and presumably also the police and went to the enormous expense of pursuing private prosecutions in these cases.
    The Post Office has a long history of managing its own investigations and prosecutions. Indeed the Post Office had ‘police’ before the police had been created, and the Royal Mail arm retains special powers to this day
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,354

    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
    I ended up within 1, but failed, but only after opening a map after my first three guesses.
    Got it in four, which is probably a sign I've spent too long in the past on the Ordnance Survey Election Maps site (which is well done).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,010
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Fascinating GESOP poll from Spain this evening - they don't have an election until the end of 2023 but some interesting political developments and trends:

    PSOE: 26.0% (-2.0)
    PP: 20.6% (-0.2)
    VOX: 18.1% (+3.1)
    United Podemos: 12.5% (-0.4)
    More Country (MP): 3.8% (+1.4)
    Citizens: 3.3% (-3.5)
    Republican Left (Catalonia): 3.0% (-0.6)

    The Spanish Congress of Deputies has 349 members - 155 of which form the Government (PSOE and PP) but supported by 33 (including 13 from the Republican Left and 2 from More Country) and 161 the Opposition (PP, VOX, Citizens and 12 others).

    Could VOX yet challenge PP for second place? It would be a game-changing moment but the gap is closing and as last Sunday's Castile & Leon regional election showed, PP are struggling to make headway against PSOE while VOX is clearly making big strides and that will be a concern for PP leader Casado if it leaves his only path to Government through VOX or if he were forced to decide whether to support a VOX-led minority administration.

    Sanchez can feel reasonably happy - UP are holding up well and with allies like MP making headway on the Green left, the opportunity to build a similar coalition to the current Government clearly still exists and the advance of VOX will be concentrating minds on the left.

    Interestingly, in the aftermath of the Castile & Leon vote last weekend, the local PP leadership have kept VOX at arm's length though the local VOX leader wants a similar arrangement with PP as that enjoyed by Citizens so the VOX leader becomes the Vice-President for the region.

    Sanchez has offered, on the part of PSOE, to abstain on the formation of a minority PP Government in Castile & Leon on condition nationally PP ends all ties with VOX - whether this clears the way for a possible Spanish "Grand Coalition" next time is debatable but it's a contingency IF VOX were to overtake PP and take second place.

    It would not be too surprising, in 2 out of the 4 largest western European EU nations, France and Italy, the main centre right party, Les Republicains and Forza Italia has already been overtaken by the rightwing nationalist Le Pen's party at presidential level and Lega Nord in the Italian Parliament. If in Spain Vox overtook the PP that would see a similar trend, leaving only Germany where the main centre right party of the CDU was also the main party of the centre right.

    In the UK too of course the Brexit Party briefly overtook the Tories in the polls before Boris took over. In the US the GOP has increasingly been taken over by Trumpite nationalists as well.
    That “as well” can be read in so many ways. 😀
    Trump has more in common with Le Pen, Salvini and Vox than he does with Pecresse and the PP
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,974
    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
    Last go :)

    That's a PB essential, surely.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,477

    malcolmg said:

    Why does Boris Johnson think Ukraine is a sovereign country but Scotland is not?

    He looked at a map?
    Little Englander special
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,225
    edited February 2022

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
    The crisis has in many respects been well reported but I would have liked to have heard more about what is going on within the Kremlin and just how much pressure Putin is under from those that keep him in place.

    Any decent reports on this you can recommend? I would be particularly interested in learning about the role of the Wagner Group and its sponsors.
    Wagner are an extension of the Russian government's foreign policy. Think of them like a Quango....but with guns.
    Yes, I kind of knew that, Yokes. But just how much control does Putin have over them?

    If they wanted him out, for example, would they have much of a problem?

    Frankly I think Putin has screwed up. War or no war, I don't see what he gets out of this. I think he's misjudged the situation and may not be that popular with his most powerful and wealthy buddies now.
    As it stands today? Lots of control because its head is a very close old pal. Of course if you have such a structure outside of the government then it carries risk but they are not alone likely to be quite that capable of doing the ousting. His overthrow is more likely to come within the formal structures of government.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Why does Boris Johnson think Ukraine is a sovereign country but Scotland is not?

    He looked at a map?
    Little Englander special
    If we had a little England then Scotland would be a sovereign country.

    But sadly Scottish voters were too frit in 2014, voting against becoming a sovereign country.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,477
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Why does Boris Johnson think Ukraine is a sovereign country but Scotland is not?

    I know, it's utterly astonishing, but even Boris Johnson can show a dim understanding of geography at times.
    spam
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,231

    MaxPB said:

    One thing I noticed last night on the way home, street lamps in the suburbs seem to have been switched off. It seems as though the electricity capacity situation is worse than the government is letting on.

    Been going on for years. Local authorities saving money
    ... protecting the environment, avoiding light-pollution... Seems fine to me.
    Those are the pros. The cons are some of the areas can be scary for people walking alone
  • Options
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, that seems his best move, now. Maybe annexe a slice of Ukraine he has already annexed (de facto or de jure) Russia appears enlarged, it can be seen as a win, slowly draw down the troops, seem magnanimous

    However it is still a loss, to my mind. And will be perceived as such. Putin's first big reverse. A pro-EU/NATO government remains in Kiev, much more likely to favour the West, meanwhile the West is much steelier and more united than it has been for decades

    Putin is 69. His time nears an end

    This is why he might yet attack, despite the bad omens

    The question for the West is whether to offer Putin a face-saving deal based on some wordy but worthless political concessions in the breakaway areas which will allow a slow but steady de-escalation or to push further. Perhaps Zelensky is encouraged to step down or to call an earlier Presidential election.

    The problem is if Putin stumbles and falls, who follows him - Belousov looks the more likely successor than Mishustin - given political instability and uncertainty in Moscow isn't something anybody wants or needs.

    The other side of offering Putin a way out is it doesn't close the door on a future rapprochement and drives Russian further into the Chinese orbit. One of the ways we will confront China is to have Russia if not on our side then not on Beijing's. A powerful Russia is a strong deterrence to Chinese ambitions.

    It's still on a knife edge tonight and we have to hope the voices of reason and sense are the ones getting through.
    The crisis has in many respects been well reported but I would have liked to have heard more about what is going on within the Kremlin and just how much pressure Putin is under from those that keep him in place.

    Any decent reports on this you can recommend? I would be particularly interested in learning about the role of the Wagner Group and its sponsors.
    Wagner are an extension of the Russian government's foreign policy. Think of them like a Quango....but with guns.
    Yes, I kind of knew that, Yokes. But just how much control does Putin have over them?

    If they wanted him out, for example, would they have much of a problem?

    Frankly I think Putin has screwed up. War or no war, I don't see what he gets out of this. I think he's misjudged the situation and may not be that popular with his most powerful and wealthy buddies now.
    As it stands today? Lots of control because its head is a very close old pal. Of course if you have such a structure outside of the government then it carries risk but they are not alone likely to be quite that capable of doing the ousting. His overthrow is more likely to come within the formal structures of government.
    Got it. Thanks.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,477

    malcolmg said:

    Why does Boris Johnson think Ukraine is a sovereign country but Scotland is not?

    In 2014 Scotland voted to remain in the UK and until that changes then Scotland is an integral part of the UK

    Scotland has not achieved independence yet and is not likely to for many years
    Just what I would expect from a Little Englander G
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,477

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Why does Boris Johnson think Ukraine is a sovereign country but Scotland is not?

    He looked at a map?
    Little Englander special
    If we had a little England then Scotland would be a sovereign country.

    But sadly Scottish voters were too frit in 2014, voting against becoming a sovereign country.
    Get your head out of Boris's butt and think for a change you moronic cretin.
  • Options
    NEW THREAD
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,231
    Leon said:

    Is it possible Putin has fucked this up?

    He thought he could grab a slice of Ukraine and overthrow the pro-western govt with minimal pain and a lot of bullying. But the surprisingly united western response has left him paralysed

    He has 3/4 of the Russian military poised on the Ukrainian border. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to climb down with grace (and without menacing his own position) he doesn't know how to attack without damaging Russia more than is worthwhile.

    Just a theory

    That’s what the West has been playing for.

    Surrender and he loses Donetsk

    Invade and he loses Crimea as well
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 32,941

    kjh said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Wordle for UK local authorities by shape.

    https://wardle.puntofisso.net

    Got so close within 2, but failed. Easy to get close, but then just so difficult when so close.
    I ended up within 1, but failed, but only after opening a map after my first three guesses.
    Got it in four, which is probably a sign I've spent too long in the past on the Ordnance Survey Election Maps site (which is well done).
    Took 5 - and I live nearby
This discussion has been closed.