As one of PBs staunch monarchists (and it’s awful I feel like a minority in this chat room) mixed feelings about this news story. It means Andrew can never clear his name now, which is sad for the monarchy ☹️
Whether you are a monarchist or not does not factor into his guilt. Given his record of behaviour, I think this is about as good an outcome for the monarchy as possible.
Correct. Because like all good detective novels, Andrew is guilty of something, even if it is not a criminal offence. He stood by Epstein. He went to parties with Epstein. He invited him to Balmoral. In a context where fame, contacts, and impressions are key, he gave Maxwell and Epstein what they needed.
The details may be for dispute. But a Court could not have cleared him of the above charge.
Time for people to move on from partygate, it's been done to death.
It's unfortunate the Met is wasting so much money on this.
Laughable
I don’t know why Dale’s post appeared flagged. It was accurate and put more politely than many on this forum.
In Dales defence I’ll post “Boris sacked in dogminus 7 days.
Can Admins see who does the false flag’s and banish the naughty ones?
PS Gary, in my opinion its still rumbling in background like a volcano about to erupt wiping out all life in Boris Citadel. Whatever MET are paying for this, it’s cheap price for honesty and probity in government and rules of the land that treat everyone equally and fairly
I do believe the flag is there to be used as clients wish and is not in the preogative of any single user stating how and when it should be used. Why would admin decide who is using and why or not? Surely freedom of speech applies on PB, within the law (OGH). PS: Even if implausible. Just look at the amount of Flags I have and each one of them undeserved, yet I suffer in silence.
Moderation DO review Flags and Off Topics. They MAY take action against those who have done the flagging if they consider it unreasonable, as well of course as reviewing whether the Flag/Off Topic is justified and thus whether action should be taken against the poster who made the post which has been flagged. It is of course a matter for Moderator discretion.
Thought police
Would it be better, if possible, to do away with all buttons except quote?
I rather like using the like button. I use it far more than I post. Vert occasionally I like something so much I have to say so also.
Someone who uses the like button more than they post is the equivalent of a quietly supportive friend or parent.
Glad to see you have still clocked up 27,000 posts (next post). Keep posting @kinabalu !
Should SKS ask at next week’s PMQs something like “ Will the Prime Minister guarantee to investigate Russian investments held in the UK for possible money laundering or other criminal activities?”
I'm sure that the Prime Minister will have been assured that all law and guidance has been followed, and will be more outraged than anyone else to find out that there's suspected money-laundering, and claim credit for taking more action against it than anyone else ever, which we couldn't have done in the EU, and....
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
Just as a matter of interest, how does one get one's heart desiccated?
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
Just as a matter of interest, how does one get one's heart desiccated?
Time for people to move on from partygate, it's been done to death.
It's unfortunate the Met is wasting so much money on this.
Laughable
I don’t know why Dale’s post appeared flagged. It was accurate and put more politely than many on this forum.
In Dales defence I’ll post “Boris sacked in dogminus 7 days.
Can Admins see who does the false flag’s and banish the naughty ones?
PS Gary, in my opinion its still rumbling in background like a volcano about to erupt wiping out all life in Boris Citadel. Whatever MET are paying for this, it’s cheap price for honesty and probity in government and rules of the land that treat everyone equally and fairly
I do believe the flag is there to be used as clients wish and is not in the preogative of any single user stating how and when it should be used. Why would admin decide who is using and why or not? Surely freedom of speech applies on PB, within the law (OGH). PS: Even if implausible. Just look at the amount of Flags I have and each one of them undeserved, yet I suffer in silence.
Moderation DO review Flags and Off Topics. They MAY take action against those who have done the flagging if they consider it unreasonable, as well of course as reviewing whether the Flag/Off Topic is justified and thus whether action should be taken against the poster who made the post which has been flagged. It is of course a matter for Moderator discretion.
Thought police
Would it be better, if possible, to do away with all buttons except quote?
I rather like using the like button. I use it far more than I post. Vert occasionally I like something so much I have to say so also.
Someone who uses the like button more than they post is the equivalent of a quietly supportive friend or parent.
Glad to see you have still clocked up 27,000 posts (next post). Keep posting @kinabalu !
Annnnd ... Break!
I'm going to read a book for a few days now instead. A big fat Japanese magical realist one.
So much for Virginia Guiffre saying her lawsuit against Randy Andy was not about money ...
Or so much for Andrew being determined to clear his name. You pays your money you takes your choice.
It's not entirely clear if he has paid any money to her. He has made a donation to her charity for survivors and expressed regret about his association with Epstein. It looks to me that her side has folded more than his, possibly because they have "lost" the photograph.
So you think we can rehabilitate Andrew's impeccable character so he can re - board the gravy train?
Not a chance.
Short of the originals out of which the photo is alleged to have been fabricated appearing, I think not.
Even then. People a hell of a lot smarter than Andrew (a very high percentage of the population, admittedly) were taken in by Epstein and Maxwell but jeez. What the hell was he doing there and did he really believe young girls were throwing themselves at him because he was a Prince? Thick, arrogant, delusional and sleezy, its not a winning combination.
A mate of mine has spent time with him and he did not disappoint on those first two qualities apparently.
Just as well we need never hear from him or see him in public ever again.
Though quite how he is going to fulfil his pledge to support the fight against sex trafficking and support its victims - see the announcement - is not entirely clear.
Let's hope he doesn't start roaming the streets at night a la Gladstone ......
I would imagine he’s in talks right now with Harry and Meghan to set up a charity where they will target wealthy men in positions of power who abuse this position and wealth to attract young women who would otherwise not look twice at them.
They could also attack the other end of the issue and seek to “out” those that benefit from the sex trade and to end the “Yachting” industry and other such ways in which young attractive young women are flown around the world and paid money to sleep with wealthy men and holiday on yachts and suchlike with them in glamorous locations and treated like meat.
I’m sure it’s something they could all get behind and make a big difference.
Once again most over-rated lawyer in America, namely David Boies, does what he does best: picks up a massive paycheck.
Helping Rancid Andrew get off the hook = helping W get into the White House
Did he pick up a massive paycheck?
I somehow doubt it. I suspect he was the one who said "there is no likelihood of success and therefore I am not going to pick up a big paycheck, and therefore I'm not wasting another hour on it."
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
Without the photo, there was no likelihood of her winning the case, because there was nothing connecting the two of them.
It reminds me of the Wagatha Christie story where key evidence somehow "disappeared".
My guess is that you are right, and she has is spinning a small donation as a big victory.
I bring and prove plenty of cases without pictures of the events happening. If you were Andrew, why would accept her spin? If it's $250,000, why not say that?
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
I know what you are, and I don't think I'm the only one who see you.
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Once again most over-rated lawyer in America, namely David Boies, does what he does best: picks up a massive paycheck.
Helping Rancid Andrew get off the hook = helping W get into the White House
Did he pick up a massive paycheck?
I somehow doubt it. I suspect he was the one who said "there is no likelihood of success and therefore I am not going to pick up a big paycheck, and therefore I'm not wasting another hour on it."
If "there was no likelihood of success" why did Andrew settle?
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
"Claiming that its assistance had been requested by East Timorese leaders, Indonesian military forces invaded East Timor on 7 December 1975, and by 1979 they had all but destroyed the armed resistance to the occupation. Following a controversial "Popular Assembly" which many said was not a genuine act of self-determination, Indonesia declared the territory a province of Indonesia (Timor Timur).
"Immediately after the invasion, the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council passed resolutions condemning Indonesia's actions in East Timor and calling for its immediate withdrawal from the territory. Australia and Indonesia were the only nations in the world which recognised East Timor as a province of Indonesia, and soon afterwards they began negotiations to divide resources found in the Timor Gap."
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Indonesia regarded it as a province, which is exactly what I said.
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Indonesia regarded it as a province, which is exactly what I said.
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Indonesia regarded it as a province, which is exactly what I said.
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
Time for people to move on from partygate, it's been done to death.
It's unfortunate the Met is wasting so much money on this.
Laughable
I don’t know why Dale’s post appeared flagged. It was accurate and put more politely than many on this forum.
In Dales defence I’ll post “Boris sacked in dogminus 7 days.
Can Admins see who does the false flag’s and banish the naughty ones?
PS Gary, in my opinion its still rumbling in background like a volcano about to erupt wiping out all life in Boris Citadel. Whatever MET are paying for this, it’s cheap price for honesty and probity in government and rules of the land that treat everyone equally and fairly
I do believe the flag is there to be used as clients wish and is not in the preogative of any single user stating how and when it should be used. Why would admin decide who is using and why or not? Surely freedom of speech applies on PB, within the law (OGH). PS: Even if implausible. Just look at the amount of Flags I have and each one of them undeserved, yet I suffer in silence.
Moderation DO review Flags and Off Topics. They MAY take action against those who have done the flagging if they consider it unreasonable, as well of course as reviewing whether the Flag/Off Topic is justified and thus whether action should be taken against the poster who made the post which has been flagged. It is of course a matter for Moderator discretion.
Thought police
Would it be better, if possible, to do away with all buttons except quote?
I rather like using the like button. I use it far more than I post. Vert occasionally I like something so much I have to say so also.
Someone who uses the like button more than they post is the equivalent of a quietly supportive friend or parent.
Once again most over-rated lawyer in America, namely David Boies, does what he does best: picks up a massive paycheck.
Helping Rancid Andrew get off the hook = helping W get into the White House
Did he pick up a massive paycheck?
I somehow doubt it. I suspect he was the one who said "there is no likelihood of success and therefore I am not going to pick up a big paycheck, and therefore I'm not wasting another hour on it."
If "there was no likelihood of success" why did Andrew settle?
He may have had quite a bit of pressure from upstairs.
I'd not be at all suprised if he lost all his titles as part of a deal whereby HMQ's representatives agreed to pick up the tab.
It's no bad thing anyway - he clearly isn't some arch fiend, and having him in the headlines really helps noone.
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Indonesia regarded it as a province, which is exactly what I said.
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
PB tense-but-silly argument alert!
LOL. Not that tense. Perhaps pedantic. But what is PB if not pedantic?
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
I am disputing it was ever a province. Most of the world never recognized Indonesian claims over East Timor.
Indonesia regarded it as a province, which is exactly what I said.
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
PB tense-but-silly argument alert!
LOL. Not that tense. Perhaps pedantic. But what is PB if not pedantic?
Fair enough - I'd settle for just 'silly'.
Sometimes similar arguments have got completely out of hand on here but I am sure you two are far too sensible for that.
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
Just as a matter of interest, how does one get one's heart desiccated?
A heart bypass by an incompetent cardiac surgeon perhaps?
So who has the bigger brass neck? Boris Johnson or Andrew Windsor?
Thinking about the two - we could have been even worse off - imagine their lives had swapped like in Freaky Friday and we had Prince Andrew as PM and Boris flying a helicopter in a war……
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
In March 2011, when allegations about Prince Andrew first surfaced, a bitcoin would set you back $1. In November 2019, when the Newsnight interview was broadcast, you could still get a bitcoin for $7049. Today the same coin would set you back $43,930.
Bloke who Russia Today call their favourite UK politician whilst he himself says Putin is the world leader he admires the most, takes Putin's side shocker.
It is seldom I repost an entire lengthy comment just because it is inadvertently funny but I can’t resist doing it with @farooq
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue. Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
Just as a matter of interest, how does one get one's heart desiccated?
A heart bypass by an incompetent cardiac surgeon perhaps?
Isn't it the anaesthetist's job to manage the body fluids during surgery? So probably an incompetent anaesthetist.
Bloke who Russia Today call their favourite UK politician whilst he himself says Putin is the world leader he admires the most, takes Putin's side shocker.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
I agree, we should only allow Ukraine to join NATO if we are prepared to go to war with Russia as we would have to do to defend any other NATO nation.
We are not prepared to do that, so there is no point it joining
Bloke who Russia Today call their favourite UK politician whilst he himself says Putin is the world leader he admires the most, takes Putin's side shocker.
I literally don't understand any of that
Farage is a fan of Putin, his politics have served Putin's interests, divided Nato, the EU, the US and western countries internally. It is hardly surprising he wants what Putin wants.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
And the more that Putin threatens the Ukraine, the closer it gets to associate-not-quite-a-memeber-of-NATO status.
It's almost as is if acting like a violent fuckwit causes people to treat you as a violent fuckwit.
Perhaps Putin could try a radical policy of being nice to the neighbours?
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
Sadly we do not know exactly what the result would have been had there been a free and fair vote. The Crimea referendum was riddled with corruption and certainly rigged by Russia. We mustn't mistake pretendy democracy for the real thing.
Did Ukraine offer a plebiscite while it controlled the territory?
I agree about Putin's referendum, but an actual referendum under the auspices of the UN would not change the result (though it would be less overwhelming).
Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
East Timor.
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
You mean the territory invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with no prior political attachment to what is now Indonesia pre-colonial times? The one brutally suppressed by the Indonesians? That 'province'?
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I was asked to provide an example of a separatist province whose fate was resolved by a UN plebiscite.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
No you weren't. I asked "Do we apply that UN process to any putative separatist territory?", not "have we applied that UN process to any putative separatist territory?
You should have been able to discern the meaning from the question alone, it's really quite clear, but I followed it up with examples. Unfortunately you snipped all that from the quote reply and I suspect you didn't read it, because the post is quite clearly talking about whether every country should be treated in the same way.
To put it another way, we should not make rules that apply only to the weak.
And East Timor was never a putative separatist territory because the world had never accepted it as being Indonesian territory.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
Yeah, give Putin what he wants. Peace for our time.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
So when Putin eyes up the Baltics - what exactly do you think they should do?
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
I don't pretend to be an expert on a lot of things. I know nothing about fusion reactors or aerodynamics or motorcycle maintenance or the names of different fabrics. But one thing I do take a very keen interest in is history. And one lesson I have learned from my fairly extensive reading is that you don't counter imperial aggression divided. You unite, or you get picked off one by one.
NATO already covers most European nations up to Romania, Poland and the Baltic states. all united in mutual defence.
Expanding it to Ukraine however means we would have to be ready to go to WW3 if Russia invaded Ukraine, which we aren't
I would have thought the right thing to do would be to have Ukraine in permanent "almost" status, like Turkey with the EU. They get to be on the path, but the destination is never reached.
I'm also generally disinclined to say "sure Vlad, we promise never to let a democratic Ukraine join, because that's what you want."
Andrew’s settlement is unsatisfying. We’ll now never know the truth.
My suspicion, but of course it can only be a feeling, is that the photo is real; Andrew stupidly slept with one or more young girls at Epstein’s various lairs, but that his behaviour would be considered pretty much normal if he was a Hollywood actor like Leonardo de Caprio.
I believe Andrew is thick, arrogant, and deluded but not a rapist. Indeed, he’s essentially a victim of Epstein himself, since he seemed to have been used - like so many others - to provide Epstein with respectability.
Andrew wouldn’t be in this situation (which effectively has him removed from all public duties) if he hadn’t have given that deranged interview which seemed riddled with risible lies.
Bill Clinton and others have got away scot free.
Andrew’s only course of action now is semi-private charity work for a v long time (the Profumo “strategy”), but he probably can’t be arsed.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
Yeah, give Putin what he wants. Peace for our time.
There is a good line
"Justice requires sacrifices. Are you ready to be one of them?"
Perhaps @Heathener is prepared to *be* a sacrifice to peace? Or is it OK only to talk of sacrificing others?
So much for Virginia Guiffre saying her lawsuit against Randy Andy was not about money ...
Or so much for Andrew being determined to clear his name. You pays your money you takes your choice.
It's not entirely clear if he has paid any money to her. He has made a donation to her charity for survivors and expressed regret about his association with Epstein. It looks to me that her side has folded more than his, possibly because they have "lost" the photograph.
Sorry, David, how do you mean, with the photo?
She has now admitted that she does not have the original of the photo with Andrew's hand around her and Maxwell skulking in the background. There must have been a worry that the Judge would exclude all references to copies when its provenance could not be substantiated.
It certainly would not have looked good if the original couldn't be produced. What mystifies me though is that it has been in circulation for years so if it was faked why didn't Maxwell or Andrew call it out straight away?
If someone produced a photo of me with someone I had "never met" I would have immediately said "that's a fake". I know Andrew is a bit challenged on the IQ front but I doubt his legal team are. Why only now?
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
Count yourself lucky you don’t live in a dictatorship. You have freedoms enshrined in the law. You cannot be arbitrarily locked up. You are free to believe what you want, and can post it on line with repercussions. Claiming that dictatorships are a good thing is one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever read on here.
So much for Virginia Guiffre saying her lawsuit against Randy Andy was not about money ...
Or so much for Andrew being determined to clear his name. You pays your money you takes your choice.
It's not entirely clear if he has paid any money to her. He has made a donation to her charity for survivors and expressed regret about his association with Epstein. It looks to me that her side has folded more than his, possibly because they have "lost" the photograph.
Sorry, David, how do you mean, with the photo?
She has now admitted that she does not have the original of the photo with Andrew's hand around her and Maxwell skulking in the background. There must have been a worry that the Judge would exclude all references to copies when its provenance could not be substantiated.
It certainly would not have looked good if the original couldn't be produced. What mystifies me though is that it has been in circulation for years so if it was faked why didn't Maxwell or Andrew call it out straight away?
If someone produced a photo of me with someone I had "never met" I would have immediately said "that's a fake". I know Andrew is a bit challenged on the IQ front but I doubt his legal team are. Why only now?
The photograph going missing sounds like it has more to it than meets the eye given it was the key piece of evidence. Rather like the suicide of Epstein while on suicide watch.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
Count yourself lucky you don’t live in a dictatorship. You have freedoms enshrined in the law. You cannot be arbitrarily locked up. You are free to believe what you want, and can post it on line with repercussions. Claiming that dictatorships are a good thing is one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever read on here.
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
I am very pleased someone else on pb.com (other than myself) has accepted what is very obvious to anyone with some knowledge of the area.
The plebiscites in Donetsk and Luhansk will only go one way. (Ditto the Crimea).
Ukraine should allow the UN to hold the plebiscites.
I didn’t say that, or state a preference. I merely explained what I believe Kiev and Moscow positions and interpretations are in Minsk II for us to relate to when Western Leaders express opinion on it. How well did I do at explaining it, I’m still waiting to hear.
If those elections are held I believe those regions vote to leave Ukraine sovereignty and borders. Is this what you really want to see happen my dear poet? Why do you think that would help?
So we are agreed unanimously on PB? when in discussion here or comes up in any political discussion in media on Minsk Protocol, actually means - implement now is Pro Russia - renegotiate first (and any delay tactic) is pro Kiev?
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
I don’t get why Ukraine should join NATO at all. The idea is crazy.
NATO membership is not some kind of democratic perk. Its a defence alliance, and the more members, the more unwieldy it becomes. Moreover, Russia doesn’t want it, and while it seems unfair that Russia might have a veto on this matter, it’s just realpolitik.
Western policy should be focused on assisting Ukraine to cut down on the rampant corruption and backward agriculture sector that have been holding the country back, and further deepening economic links. The UK could play a v useful role here.
Time for people to move on from partygate, it's been done to death.
It's unfortunate the Met is wasting so much money on this.
Laughable
I don’t know why Dale’s post appeared flagged. It was accurate and put more politely than many on this forum.
In Dales defence I’ll post “Boris sacked in dogminus 7 days.
Can Admins see who does the false flag’s and banish the naughty ones?
PS Gary, in my opinion its still rumbling in background like a volcano about to erupt wiping out all life in Boris Citadel. Whatever MET are paying for this, it’s cheap price for honesty and probity in government and rules of the land that treat everyone equally and fairly
I do believe the flag is there to be used as clients wish and is not in the preogative of any single user stating how and when it should be used. Why would admin decide who is using and why or not? Surely freedom of speech applies on PB, within the law (OGH). PS: Even if implausible. Just look at the amount of Flags I have and each one of them undeserved, yet I suffer in silence.
Moderation DO review Flags and Off Topics. They MAY take action against those who have done the flagging if they consider it unreasonable, as well of course as reviewing whether the Flag/Off Topic is justified and thus whether action should be taken against the poster who made the post which has been flagged. It is of course a matter for Moderator discretion.
Thought police
Would it be better, if possible, to do away with all buttons except quote?
I rather like using the like button. I use it far more than I post. Vert occasionally I like something so much I have to say so also.
I don’t have a problem with like button staying - but could it not have a slight negative in not being honest and straight sometimes if playing for likes? If you speak your mind, colour peoples view of you, your likes will drop off? So it undermines honesty?
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
I don't pretend to be an expert on a lot of things. I know nothing about fusion reactors or aerodynamics or motorcycle maintenance or the names of different fabrics. But one thing I do take a very keen interest in is history. And one lesson I have learned from my fairly extensive reading is that you don't counter imperial aggression divided. You unite, or you get picked off one by one.
NATO already covers most European nations up to Romania, Poland and the Baltic states. all united in mutual defence.
Expanding it to Ukraine however means we would have to be ready to go to WW3 if Russia invaded Ukraine, which we aren't
So are we prepared to risk a larger war to defend Lithuania or Poland? If not, what does NATO even mean? If so, why do we care about them and not Ukraine?
They got in first.
There doesn’t need to be some kind of “law” underpinning these things.
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
Given the way that trophy properties have gone up - a high end Swiss chalet tripling in value since 2014 is what you'd expect.
At a guess the original provider of the $9m wanted the money from any purchase to go back to them directly, rather than trusting a Prince with their money....
A friend who works in private banking tells me comic stories of the financial engineering used by the apparently mega rich to try and purchase assets well out of their wealth class.
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
Chalets in Verbier were insanely expensive even in 2014. I would be staggered if prices had risen more than 30-40% since then.
Andrew called out the photo as fake in the interview. The only issue is that he also made a series of other claims which didn’t really sound accurate. Like his inability to sweat, and his recollection of being at Woking Pizza Express.
If you wanna make those claims, you’re gonna need to disclose medical reports and provide corroborating witnesses etc.
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
Given the way that trophy properties have gone up - a high end Swiss chalet tripling in value since 2014 is what you'd expect.
At a guess the original provider of the $9m wanted the money from any purchase to go back to them directly, rather than trusting a Prince with their money....
A friend who works in private banking tells me comic stories of the financial engineering used by the apparently mega rich to try and purchase assets well out of their wealth class.
I don't think that's true at all. I was in Verbier in 2015, and looked in an Estate Agent's window and was utterly staggered by prices.
I don’t get why Ukraine should join NATO at all. The idea is crazy.
NATO membership is not some kind of democratic perk. Its a defence alliance, and the more members, the more unwieldy it becomes. Moreover, Russia doesn’t want it, and while it seems unfair that Russia might have a veto on this matter, it’s just realpolitik.
Western policy should be focused on assisting Ukraine to cut down on the rampant corruption and backward agriculture sector that have been holding the country back, and further deepening economic links. The UK could play a v useful role here.
But doing that with our eyes closed while Russia chops more bits off the country won't work. Why not defend Ukraine territorially and help them domestically as well.
No, wait, that is what various countries *have* been doing.
Poor dome head Scholz head must be freezing 🥶 has he not been paying any attention to how to do the big Kremlin photo op!
The thing to look for is where he sits. Everyone else has been the length of a cricket pitch away from Putin at the other end of that huge table. If this is the case here too we can probably conclude the final diplomatic push by Germany has failed and it's war. But - and let's hope this is what we do see - if the two men sit cheek by jowl, all cosy, at one end of the table, maybe even with Putin's arm draped casually around the back of Scholz's chair, then it could be that a compromise has been reached.
The problem with that post Kin, he appears to use even longer tables with his own cabinet?
Ah now that is true. Bizarre really. Tbh, for all the geopolitics that is rightly chewed over, I wonder - as Dura Ace does - how much of what he wanted from all this was on the personal level, ie about feeding Big Important Man syndrome. In which case having sundry Western leaders jetting over to Moscow and sitting there in supplication at that huge long table has probably done the trick. It's a Win.
Remember bond films had KGB in big offices, and the Brit big wigs in little cosy ones. It might just be a cultural thing than supplication technique. Lunchtime he probably sits on his own in there eating a burger!
Someone posted this on site a couple of days ago “Whilst Putin doesn’t appear to have goals easily achievable through military action, he will clearly gain a lot if he moves EU and Ukraine towards those Minsk Protocol’s so far not implemented. We have no choice but to consider this, because if he doesn’t initiate military conflict, and we hail ourselves on the triumph of thwarting his invasion - we may actually overlook what Putin’s plan actually has been all along, and crucially still ongoing in the years to come. I suggest we monitor the media carefully not just for signs of invasion or false flag operations, but listen to what EU capitals, and the Ukrainian government, are saying about Nord and Minsk Protocols.”
If the EU start to say things about considering Russia’s security concerns in all this negotiating, Russia dismantles its build up with a big 😝 in direction of Washington, then not to underestimate what a Gas pipeline or two can actually win you?
So with war over and negotiations that consider Russian security in all this being given a chance, does the media narrative shift back now to vaccination status of tennis players and the other big Moscow story - Boris Moscow?
Someone on PB has started a countdown to Big Dog’s neutering and it stands today at just Snip minus 7 days 😲
I think there is no agreement as to what the Minsk protocol actually means.
The current Russian Government position is that they are not a party to Minsk. Or, I think, to Minsk II.
And what they want is a further move to give them control over what happens in other sovereign countries, whilst denying that to others in their own country.
If EuCo starts making noises as you suggest, then it will encourage Russia to try the same in Poland and the Baltics and Finland, and imo put themselves in the same place as France and the UK in 1938.
Your entitled to your view. For some “negotiations that also consider Russian security concerns in all this” is yet another reason to hate and bash the EU.
Ukraine position is to have both NATO membership AND to retake parts of its own sovereign territory held by the Russians. Do you support the UK and Washington fast tracking Ukraine NATO membership? In your opinion why don’t they have it yet? Can they have it by the end of the year? Up until then “standing shoulder to shoulder with democratic sovereign nation” is just hollow words or even lies isn’t it?
They haven't fast tracked it. No-one in NATO is really talking about Ukraine joining. It is a permanent aspiration much like Turkey joining the EU.
This is for the same reason that Finland isn't a member - because it would be seen as too much of a provocation to Russia.
The "standing shoulder to shoulder with democratic sovereign nation" is not a lie, because it is possible to stand shoulder to shoulder with a nation without them joining NATO. Neither Sweden or Finland are in NATO - but no-one doubts that if they were attacked, that NATO would come to their aid.
What Putin has achieved with his build up etc is that Ukraine is now moved up the ranks of Friends Of NATO. Not quote to the level of Finland, which is so nearly in NATO that if someone sneezes.... But massively higher than it was.
Finland hasn't applied to join NATO, and spent the cold war (like Austria) being pretty close to the USSR.
Their closeness to the USSR was an interesting one - while they superficially claimed to be some version of neutral, everyone knew that invading Finland was a Day One move for the USSR, when/if the Big Mistake happened.
It was quite noticeable how fast that turned into practically-a-memeber-of-NATO at the end of the Cold War.
It’s not often I disagree with one of your knowledgable posts Malmsy, but
“ The "standing shoulder to shoulder with democratic sovereign nation" is not a lie, because it is possible to stand shoulder to shoulder with a nation without them joining NATO. Neither Sweden or Finland are in NATO - but no-one doubts that if they were attacked, that NATO would come to their aid. ”
That’s not a true comparison - we were just about to stand by and let Putin hang draw quarter and boil the head of Ukraines democracy, sovereignty, and right to political self determination weren’t we - allowing Russia to do this with military air superiority over the Ukraine nation.
Aside from military aid and sanctions that would seriously stuff up the Russia economy (more than it is in a mess now). Things like cutting off Nord Stream 2 - permanently.
If Americans had sent armoured divisions to Ukraine, this would have guaranteed war. Because at that point Putin would have been trapped by the Greater Russian Nationalists behind him.
Instead, we guaranteed that Russia would *regret* war. But could climb down.
Instead of "destroying the village to save it" we "guaranteed to fuck up anyone who pokes the village further"
So, hopefully, the Russian soldiers go home. Alive, and with all their limbs. And the Ukrainian soldiers can as well.
“ So, hopefully, the Russian soldiers go home. Alive, and with all their limbs. And the Ukrainian soldiers can as well.”
Yes that, but also all the everyday people don’t have to live in long time conflict zone or become refugee!
“ Aside from military aid ”. No air support. Russian have this Busty Brenda air support thing parked in Belarus NATO didn’t fancy tackling. 😕
“ and sanctions that would seriously stuff up the Russia economy (more than it is in a mess now). Things like cutting off Nord Stream 2 - permanently. “. Did you believe that spin? UK have had a chat with Jersey., but Was there consensus on that level of sanctions such as no to Nord 2 outside of Biden’s skull? The sanctions war would have hurt the British people too wouldn’t it, which UK government remained silent about so we should feel relieved today too? Maybe Putin pumps cheap gas into Europe as a loss leader for the diplomatic edge is gives him, splitting EU from agreeing to Washington sanction package, so this Ukraine crisis wasn’t spur of moment decision for Putin?
If Biden doesn't want Nord Stream 2, as in really, really not want it, then the Germans would have to like that. And they know it.
The American leverage of imposing financial sanctions is massive. And shitting on Deutsche Bank would be a very., very popular move in the US.
It’s not often I think you are missing something important Malmsy, but how about this: think of what is coming down the 2 pipes as being heroin. Biden said to the EU junkies, you are not going back to “the supplier” for more. Instead of agreeing with Biden, Our continental cousins thought Biden an impractical idiot. And yesterday Boris repeated to Europe what Biden had told them.
In my Ukraine Crisis analysis big post Sunday night I made comparison of what Putin is doing here with Lady Thatcher and the Miners strike in 1980’s. Lady Thatcher won the strike, but a big part of winning the conflict was the planning before hand building up the coal stocks and other ways not to be dependent on miners digging coal - so if miners decided to strike they would be starved back to work.
I think these two allegory work, because in the diplomatic battle for desired outcomes here, such as agreement on sanctions, Washington prefers those pipelines turned off, Moscow happy to have them on.
Do you see what I am trying to say? Am I wrong.
That’s a really beautiful still image btw. Look at that Putin and weep 😉
The issue of the pipelines is now more controversial than it was, in Germany, for example. Many people who would have waved it through on the grounds of cheap gas are seeing it very differently.
My friend who votes SDP, there, for example, who now refers to Gerhard Schröder in terms of being Putins puppet in a way that will get me banned if I say it literally.
Well on Sunday I did post this. “Whilst Putin doesn’t appear to have goals easily achievable through military action, he will clearly gain a lot if he moves EU and Ukraine towards those Minsk Protocol’s so far not implemented. We have no choice but to consider this, because if he doesn’t initiate military conflict, and we hail ourselves on the triumph of thwarting his invasion - we may actually overlook what Putin’s plan actually has been all along, and crucially still ongoing in the years to come. I suggest we monitor the media carefully not just for signs of invasion or false flag operations, but listen to what EU capitals, and the Ukrainian government, are saying about Nord and Minsk Protocols.”
These things are now front and centre. This morning I posted this. “If the EU start to say things about considering Russia’s security concerns in all this negotiating, Russia dismantles its build up with a big 😝 in direction of Washington, then not to underestimate what a Gas pipeline or two can actually win you? “
And in the first big press conference of his short term in power, Domehead Schultz has just mentioned the M word, this is what he said “It will be a political catastrophe if Minsk Protocols are not upheld”
Can you imagine Boris or Truss or Biden saying that? In my mind the only reaction to consider next in this astonishing statement from Schultz comes from Kiev. I don’t think they will entirely agree with him. But to what degree they disagree, suggesting open to movement or willing to negotiate is key now to the size of Putin’s carefully planned success here.
The implementation of the Minsk protocols is like the various peace agreements in the former Yugoslavia - signed and then ignored.
Sure, there will be some renewed commitment to them. Which will mean exactly nothing happens on the ground.
Yet again I think you missing something big here Malmsy - because if those pleblicites do, or don’t go ahead, either way it’s a big deal.
Minsk Protocol II as explained by PBs right of centre Libdem voting MoonRabbit. I’ll keep this simple, but I think still nail it on the head. (But please correct me where you think I am wrong)
The issue with Minsk II is over interpretation, with Kiev preferring a rewrite to confirm the interpretation, before implementation, Moscow prefers implementation without the rewrite.
Essentially, correct me where wrong, Ukraine does not want a ceasefire and local elections in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics on their future status in Ukraine, until Russia withdraws its military from there. Russia claims its military is not there, Ukraine should agree to a ceasefire and allow these plebiscite to go ahead.
Because they have a different interpretation on Minsk II Kiev wants it rewritten not implemented.
More than 720,000 people living in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions have obtained Russian citizenship. The Pleblicites on autonomy from Kiev can only go one way, which is why Western leaders are circumspect what they say about implementing Minsk II. Until gas guzzling addict Gashead Schulz came along…
“It will be a political catastrophe if Minsk Protocols are not upheld” Gashead Schulz this afternoon.
Has Kiev responded to this comment from Schulz yet whilst I was making dinner (or has Gashead decided to retract or clarify his position on the autonomous pleblicites)?
Added to Josep Borrells remarks this morning about having to consider Russian security concerns now in negotiations, EU has certainly come out fighting back against Washington and London today, or is this interpretation wrong?
If Kiev agreed to implement Minsk II I suspect there are enough hardliners to force the president out. I think it would be a big deal for Ukraine to go back into negotiation without spelling out it’s red lines first, the President would even fall if he left everything on table. I think this is where we should be watching, I think this is the big moment in if Putin feels he’s gained enough climb down from Kiev to back off the military threat for now.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
I don't pretend to be an expert on a lot of things. I know nothing about fusion reactors or aerodynamics or motorcycle maintenance or the names of different fabrics. But one thing I do take a very keen interest in is history. And one lesson I have learned from my fairly extensive reading is that you don't counter imperial aggression divided. You unite, or you get picked off one by one.
NATO already covers most European nations up to Romania, Poland and the Baltic states. all united in mutual defence.
Expanding it to Ukraine however means we would have to be ready to go to WW3 if Russia invaded Ukraine, which we aren't
So are we prepared to risk a larger war to defend Lithuania or Poland? If not, what does NATO even mean? If so, why do we care about them and not Ukraine?
They got in first.
There doesn’t need to be some kind of “law” underpinning these things.
That's begging the question. I'm asking for reasons why Ukraine shouldn't be a member of NATO. The answer cannot be "because they aren't a member of NATO", that's just circular logic.
HYUFD's answer seems to be that we shouldn't be prepared to go to war to defend Ukraine but (implicitly, HYUFD can correct me here) that we should be prepared to defend Lithuania). I'm asking why. Why one and not the other?
Ukraine’s joining NATO would not bring anything to NATO’s defensive position, and would in various ways make it worse.
Another member = another “opinion” A disputed border on NATO territory. Provocation to Russia (whether we like it or not).
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
Given the way that trophy properties have gone up - a high end Swiss chalet tripling in value since 2014 is what you'd expect.
At a guess the original provider of the $9m wanted the money from any purchase to go back to them directly, rather than trusting a Prince with their money....
A friend who works in private banking tells me comic stories of the financial engineering used by the apparently mega rich to try and purchase assets well out of their wealth class.
I don't think that's true at all. I was in Verbier in 2015, and looked in an Estate Agent's window and was utterly staggered by prices.
What do you reckon the chalet was worth back then?
Edit: In the upper end of the London market, it would something like a 5x increase for some properties.
So much for Virginia Guiffre saying her lawsuit against Randy Andy was not about money ...
Or so much for Andrew being determined to clear his name. You pays your money you takes your choice.
It's not entirely clear if he has paid any money to her. He has made a donation to her charity for survivors and expressed regret about his association with Epstein. It looks to me that her side has folded more than his, possibly because they have "lost" the photograph.
Sorry, David, how do you mean, with the photo?
She has now admitted that she does not have the original of the photo with Andrew's hand around her and Maxwell skulking in the background. There must have been a worry that the Judge would exclude all references to copies when its provenance could not be substantiated.
It certainly would not have looked good if the original couldn't be produced. What mystifies me though is that it has been in circulation for years so if it was faked why didn't Maxwell or Andrew call it out straight away?
If someone produced a photo of me with someone I had "never met" I would have immediately said "that's a fake". I know Andrew is a bit challenged on the IQ front but I doubt his legal team are. Why only now?
The photograph going missing sounds like it has more to it than meets the eye given it was the key piece of evidence. Rather like the suicide of Epstein while on suicide watch.
Possibly but if it was a fake why didn't Maxwell & Andrew say so immediately and force his accuser to produce the original? That photo has been doing the rounds for months if not years.
It sounds more plausible to me that they daren't have called it a fake at the outset because they knew that the situation in the photo was real they couldn't take the risk that evidence of it happening wouldn't turn up. Now it has come to light that the original cannot be produced it can, of course, safely be called a fake.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
No, the worst is based around giving into bullies.
No it really isn't.
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
Count yourself lucky you don’t live in a dictatorship. You have freedoms enshrined in the law. You cannot be arbitrarily locked up. You are free to believe what you want, and can post it on line with repercussions. Claiming that dictatorships are a good thing is one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever read on here.
Not sure Heathener was making the moral case for dictatorships but merely pointing out that putting aside questions around human rights and democracy in some cases trying to get rid of dictators can cause security concerns for the rest of the world. Libya, Iraq and Syria are recent examples where the consequences have been plain for all to see .
Long term strategy *should* be to bring Russia into the EU, or at least a “EU plus”.
It will need to wait until Putin is dead, but if we were clever we (the West) would be creating the institutional architecture that would enabled this in due course.
So much for Virginia Guiffre saying her lawsuit against Randy Andy was not about money ...
Or so much for Andrew being determined to clear his name. You pays your money you takes your choice.
It's not entirely clear if he has paid any money to her. He has made a donation to her charity for survivors and expressed regret about his association with Epstein. It looks to me that her side has folded more than his, possibly because they have "lost" the photograph.
Sorry, David, how do you mean, with the photo?
She has now admitted that she does not have the original of the photo with Andrew's hand around her and Maxwell skulking in the background. There must have been a worry that the Judge would exclude all references to copies when its provenance could not be substantiated.
It certainly would not have looked good if the original couldn't be produced. What mystifies me though is that it has been in circulation for years so if it was faked why didn't Maxwell or Andrew call it out straight away?
If someone produced a photo of me with someone I had "never met" I would have immediately said "that's a fake". I know Andrew is a bit challenged on the IQ front but I doubt his legal team are. Why only now?
The photograph going missing sounds like it has more to it than meets the eye given it was the key piece of evidence. Rather like the suicide of Epstein while on suicide watch.
Possibly but if it was a fake why didn't Maxwell & Andrew say so immediately and force his accuser to produce the original? That photo has been doing the rounds for months if not years.
It sounds more plausible to me that they daren't have called it a fake at the outset because they knew that the situation in the photo was real they couldn't take the risk that evidence of it happening wouldn't turn up. Now it has come to light that the original cannot be produced it can, of course, safely be called a fake.
That we know, it's from the sale of the chalet. He had $15m leftover after repaying associated debt.
And how did he have the money to buy the chalet?
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Aiui he bought it a lot time ago for not a lot of money but there was some kind of lien on it that needed to be paid off before he could sell it.
Hmmm. We’ve both lived in Switzerland and know instinctively that a chalet in Verbier hasn’t been cheap for decades.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
Given the way that trophy properties have gone up - a high end Swiss chalet tripling in value since 2014 is what you'd expect.
At a guess the original provider of the $9m wanted the money from any purchase to go back to them directly, rather than trusting a Prince with their money....
A friend who works in private banking tells me comic stories of the financial engineering used by the apparently mega rich to try and purchase assets well out of their wealth class.
I don't think that's true at all. I was in Verbier in 2015, and looked in an Estate Agent's window and was utterly staggered by prices.
What do you reckon the chalet was worth back then?
Edit: In the upper end of the London market, it would something like a 5x increase for some properties.
I don't think that's true at all. I bought a house in Hampstead in 2012, spent a lot of money on it, and it's price is up perhaps 40%.
The differentials between high end (Chelsea / Belgravia / St Johns Wood / etc) and the Crouch End have really come in in recent years.
In which case you're on the side of Mr Putin. Self determination isn't self determination if it has an asterisk.
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
No it's far more subtle and complex.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
I don't pretend to be an expert on a lot of things. I know nothing about fusion reactors or aerodynamics or motorcycle maintenance or the names of different fabrics. But one thing I do take a very keen interest in is history. And one lesson I have learned from my fairly extensive reading is that you don't counter imperial aggression divided. You unite, or you get picked off one by one.
NATO already covers most European nations up to Romania, Poland and the Baltic states. all united in mutual defence.
Expanding it to Ukraine however means we would have to be ready to go to WW3 if Russia invaded Ukraine, which we aren't
So are we prepared to risk a larger war to defend Lithuania or Poland? If not, what does NATO even mean? If so, why do we care about them and not Ukraine?
They got in first.
There doesn’t need to be some kind of “law” underpinning these things.
That's begging the question. I'm asking for reasons why Ukraine shouldn't be a member of NATO. The answer cannot be "because they aren't a member of NATO", that's just circular logic.
HYUFD's answer seems to be that we shouldn't be prepared to go to war to defend Ukraine but (implicitly, HYUFD can correct me here) that we should be prepared to defend Lithuania). I'm asking why. Why one and not the other?
HYUFD’s army is too busy enforcing prima nocta rights on the Scots to protect Eastern European democracies.
Time for people to move on from partygate, it's been done to death.
It's unfortunate the Met is wasting so much money on this.
Laughable
I don’t know why Dale’s post appeared flagged. It was accurate and put more politely than many on this forum.
In Dales defence I’ll post “Boris sacked in dogminus 7 days.
Can Admins see who does the false flag’s and banish the naughty ones?
PS Gary, in my opinion its still rumbling in background like a volcano about to erupt wiping out all life in Boris Citadel. Whatever MET are paying for this, it’s cheap price for honesty and probity in government and rules of the land that treat everyone equally and fairly
I do believe the flag is there to be used as clients wish and is not in the preogative of any single user stating how and when it should be used. Why would admin decide who is using and why or not? Surely freedom of speech applies on PB, within the law (OGH). PS: Even if implausible. Just look at the amount of Flags I have and each one of them undeserved, yet I suffer in silence.
Moderation DO review Flags and Off Topics. They MAY take action against those who have done the flagging if they consider it unreasonable, as well of course as reviewing whether the Flag/Off Topic is justified and thus whether action should be taken against the poster who made the post which has been flagged. It is of course a matter for Moderator discretion.
Thought police
Would it be better, if possible, to do away with all buttons except quote?
I rather like using the like button. I use it far more than I post. Vert occasionally I like something so much I have to say so also.
I don’t have a problem with like button staying - but could it not have a slight negative in not being honest and straight sometimes if playing for likes? If you speak your mind, colour peoples view of you, your likes will drop off? So it undermines honesty?
I disagree. I tend to get likes when I say something more radical or on the rare occasion I say something funny.. If I'm just chatting I don't. So I think the opposite of what you say is true. So I don't think people hold back and I don't think people post for likes anyway.
Oh and I also like people who otherwise I might disagree with. Eg I argue a lot with @HYUFD but will often like his posts when appropriate and he often likes mine, so there is no colouring of our view due to other disagreements.
Comments
The details may be for dispute. But a Court could not have cleared him of the above charge.
Scots Young Labour can stay. Guess which organisation is still run by Corbynites?
“Speaking of which, Leon slipped a nice little "great replacement" nugget into a post the other day (I don’t expect this epiphany to happen anytime before the Chinese regime’s “Legal Enslavement of Whitey Act 2043”) and eight people liked it. Eight. I think a few people who frequent right-wing social media circles have just become so used to seeing that kind of thing that they don't notice it. It's normalised.
The post, by the way, was a critical response to a "the west is to blame for this Ukraine situation", which was a fair enough criticism. But when thinking about a largely white Europe and a largely white Russia, I don't even know how he managed to decide ethnicity was an issue.
Leon truly is the Boris of this forum. Scratch the eloquent grandeur and underneath is a desiccated heart of bitter hatred that is frightening to glimpse. A thoroughly nasty piece of work.”
I’m slightly proud that I have literally frightened farooq with a mere glimpse of my “desiccated heart of bitter hatred”
I hate to think what might happen if he got full exposure
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1493631810672148490
I'm going to read a book for a few days now instead. A big fat Japanese magical realist one.
They could also attack the other end of the issue and seek to “out” those that benefit from the sex trade and to end the “Yachting” industry and other such ways in which young attractive young women are flown around the world and paid money to sleep with wealthy men and holiday on yachts and suchlike with them in glamorous locations and treated like meat.
I’m sure it’s something they could all get behind and make a big difference.
Helping Rancid Andrew get off the hook = helping W get into the White House
It reminds me of the Wagatha Christie story where key evidence somehow "disappeared".
My guess is that you are right, and she has is spinning a small donation as a big victory.
I somehow doubt it. I suspect he was the one who said "there is no likelihood of success and therefore I am not going to pick up a big paycheck, and therefore I'm not wasting another hour on it."
Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999.
"Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness, with an estimated figure based on Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data of approximately 200,000 death"
You have a very selective and partial reading of history, to put it mildly.
I provided one in East Timor.
Another is Northern Cameroon (1959)
I am not saying the politics are exactly the same.
Commemorative -2p bitcoin more like it
"Immediately after the invasion, the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council passed resolutions condemning Indonesia's actions in East Timor and calling for its immediate withdrawal from the territory. Australia and Indonesia were the only nations in the world which recognised East Timor as a province of Indonesia, and soon afterwards they began negotiations to divide resources found in the Timor Gap."
"Indonesia relinquished its 27th province after a UN plebiscite in 1999"
I'd not be at all suprised if he lost all his titles as part of a deal whereby HMQ's representatives agreed to pick up the tab.
It's no bad thing anyway - he clearly isn't some arch fiend, and having him in the headlines really helps noone.
Sometimes similar arguments have got completely out of hand on here but I am sure you two are far too sensible for that.
i.e. we should not entertain it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/02/15/should-not-entertain-nato-membership-ukraine/
Ukraine might not meet the criteria and might never never meet the criteria to join, but it should be allowed to try and apply as is it's choice as a sovereign nation.
In March 2011, when allegations about Prince Andrew first surfaced, a bitcoin would set you back $1. In November 2019, when the Newsnight interview was broadcast, you could still get a bitcoin for $7049. Today the same coin would set you back $43,930.
So -2p is very unlikely.
Ukraine joining NATO is sheer idiocy.
You have to know your history and why this would be so so inflammatory.
The best foreign policy is based around compromise, the worst around pig-headedness.
We must NOT let Ukraine join NATO.
We are not prepared to do that, so there is no point it joining
Any thoughts on why Scotland is above the pack here?
https://www.businessinsider.com/mypillow-ceo-mike-lindells-bank-cuts-ties-with-him-2022-2
It's almost as is if acting like a violent fuckwit causes people to treat you as a violent fuckwit.
Perhaps Putin could try a radical policy of being nice to the neighbours?
I'm glad noone on this forum is involved in actual diplomacy. Since WWII it has served the world best when some amount of blind eye turning has gone on. Dictators have an important function in maintaining global stability.
It's when moral crusaders like Tony Blair and his buddy in the White House go around removing them that greater chaos ensues.
I know this may not be popular amongst armchair enthusiasts on here but I'm afraid it's how the real world works.
The sale of south-York?
Nothing funny there at all.
There is a horrid whiff around Andrew. If Boris is the “Great Unflushable” I would imagine Andrew is the “Great Unwaftable”.
Expanding it to Ukraine however means we would have to be ready to go to WW3 if Russia invaded Ukraine, which we aren't
I'm also generally disinclined to say "sure Vlad, we promise never to let a democratic Ukraine join, because that's what you want."
We’ll now never know the truth.
My suspicion, but of course it can only be a feeling, is that the photo is real; Andrew stupidly slept with one or more young girls at Epstein’s various lairs, but that his behaviour would be considered pretty much normal if he was a Hollywood actor like Leonardo de Caprio.
I believe Andrew is thick, arrogant, and deluded but not a rapist. Indeed, he’s essentially a victim of Epstein himself, since he seemed to have been used - like so many others - to provide Epstein with respectability.
Andrew wouldn’t be in this situation (which effectively has him removed from all public duties) if he hadn’t have given that deranged interview which seemed riddled with risible lies.
Bill Clinton and others have got away scot free.
Andrew’s only course of action now is semi-private charity work for a v long time (the Profumo “strategy”), but he probably can’t be arsed.
"Justice requires sacrifices. Are you ready to be one of them?"
Perhaps @Heathener is prepared to *be* a sacrifice to peace? Or is it OK only to talk of sacrificing others?
If someone produced a photo of me with someone I had "never met" I would have immediately said "that's a fake". I know Andrew is a bit challenged on the IQ front but I doubt his legal team are. Why only now?
Data show delta affected more white Britons compared to ethnic minorities who were disproportionately impacted during Wuhan and alpha
...
Data is not yet available for the omicron wave.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/02/14/middle-class-white-christians-risk-covid-third-wave/ (£££)
The Russians do this from time to time to prove that Putin has a tiny pee-pee.
The Washington Post (chosen as a source as not UK paper) says that the dispute he had was over a $9m remainder payment for the purchase and the chalet is valued at $27m. He bought it in 2014 so I’m guessing that he didn’t put down say $1m and the value jumped from $10m to 27m in the meantime.
He must have put down a big sum which had to come from somewhere.
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter apart from the fact that he’s an entitled arse who would never have earned anything like that with his brains and instead of any humility he’s an absolute pompous arse.
NATO membership is not some kind of democratic perk. Its a defence alliance, and the more members, the more unwieldy it becomes. Moreover, Russia doesn’t want it, and while it seems unfair that Russia might have a veto on this matter, it’s just realpolitik.
Western policy should be focused on assisting Ukraine to cut down on the rampant corruption and backward agriculture sector that have been holding the country back, and further deepening economic links. The UK could play a v useful role here.
https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/19/prince-andrew-the-indicted-oligarch-and-the-luxembourg-bank/
Not to get too conspiracy minded.... I keep seeing the odd story about the royal family and banks in the channel islands.
There doesn’t need to be some kind of “law” underpinning these things.
At a guess the original provider of the $9m wanted the money from any purchase to go back to them directly, rather than trusting a Prince with their money....
A friend who works in private banking tells me comic stories of the financial engineering used by the apparently mega rich to try and purchase assets well out of their wealth class.
If you wanna make those claims, you’re gonna need to disclose medical reports and provide corroborating witnesses etc.
No, wait, that is what various countries *have* been doing.
Has Kiev responded to this comment from Schulz yet whilst I was making dinner (or has Gashead decided to retract or clarify his position on the autonomous pleblicites)?
Added to Josep Borrells remarks this morning about having to consider Russian security concerns now in negotiations, EU has certainly come out fighting back against Washington and London today, or is this interpretation wrong?
If Kiev agreed to implement Minsk II I suspect there are enough hardliners to force the president out. I think it would be a big deal for Ukraine to go back into negotiation without spelling out it’s red lines first, the President would even fall if he left everything on table. I think this is where we should be watching, I think this is the big moment in if Putin feels he’s gained enough climb down from Kiev to back off the military threat for now.
Another member = another “opinion”
A disputed border on NATO territory.
Provocation to Russia (whether we like it or not).
Edit: In the upper end of the London market, it would something like a 5x increase for some properties.
It sounds more plausible to me that they daren't have called it a fake at the outset because they knew that the situation in the photo was real they couldn't take the risk that evidence of it happening wouldn't turn up. Now it has come to light that the original cannot be produced it can, of course, safely be called a fake.
To have a chalet worth $25m would suggest something comfortably north of 10,000 square feet in size. In an amazing location.
It will need to wait until Putin is dead, but if we were clever we (the West) would be creating the institutional architecture that would enabled this in due course.
Maxwell had other issues I guess.
The differentials between high end (Chelsea / Belgravia / St Johns Wood / etc) and the Crouch End have really come in in recent years.
Oh and I also like people who otherwise I might disagree with. Eg I argue a lot with @HYUFD but will often like his posts when appropriate and he often likes mine, so there is no colouring of our view due to other disagreements.