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It is still odds-on that Johnson won’t last the year – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    US moving their embassy from Kiev to Lviv.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    The President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky said Ukraine “has been informed” that Wednesday, February 16 “will be the day of the attack”, according to comments attributed to Zelensky accompanying a Facebook update to the nation.

    https://twitter.com/vplus/status/1493294997029928960?s=21

    By whom? Surely even Lavrov isn't dense enough to send through the day of the false flag operation to the enemy in advance?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Leon said:


    And how would a super advanced civilisation explore its local galaxy? The same way the first super advanced Chinese or European or Pacific civilisations explored the world - they sent out expendable machines in the form of ships with crews prepared to die, on journeys from which they would probably not return, nonetheless hoping to find new realms.

    It's not that simple I'm afraid (see my post below). The comparison doesn't work.

    In principle the idea that the early explorers were pioneering in much the same way we are now pioneering in space is an attractive one, quaint even. But it's poor science.

    The barrier to interstellar flight remains the vastness of space and the need to travel as close as possible to the speed of light. If it's physically impossible to go faster than the speed of light then even if you get to 99.99% of 186,000 miles a second the sheer vastness of the universe (including our galaxy) makes interstellar flight a major problem.

    It may be solvable but probably not by Christopher Nolan.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Meanwhile, more news from the Met:

    Met drugs chief faces sack for ‘taking LSD and cannabis’

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-drugs-chief-faces-sack-for-taking-lsd-and-cannabis-vq88jvvc2 (£)

    He's been suspended on full pay since July 2020.

    Oh, just another bad apple, or did he think being in charge of drugs meant being in charge of the drugs?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,232
    edited February 2022

    In the present climate Starmer should be out of sight, and 3 consecutive polls has seen labour fall beyond moe

    Not necessarily in the wake of a war. Don't we revert to familiarity in the early stages anyway.

    Since Johnson dodged the Gray inquiry and speared Starmer in the process with the Saville slur and survived that, he seems to realise he is safe. He knows the Savile slur is a winner for him hence the smirking dismissal of the question earlier today.

    Big Dog is saved, you should be relieved.

    Edit. Don't forget on the earlier Opinium methodology Labour are still 10 ahead. R and W and YouGov are nonetheless looking good for Big Dog's team.
  • Not necessarily in the wake of a war. Don't we revert to familiarity in the early stages anyway.

    Since Johnson dodged the Gray inquiry and speared Starmer in the process with the Saville slur and survived that, he seems to realise he is safe. He knows the Savile slur is a winner for him hence the smirking dismissal of the question earlier today.

    Big Dog is saved, you should be relieved.
    Starmer should.
  • ydoethur said:

    By whom? Surely even Lavrov isn't dense enough to send through the day of the false flag operation to the enemy in advance?
    Of course. They would simply arrange to be out that day.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775

    High mask compliance in Sainsbury's and the fish and chip shop earlier today.
    Tailing off a bit in my Waitrose now. Maybe 80% cf the previous 95%.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,349
    ydoethur said:

    By whom? Surely even Lavrov isn't dense enough to send through the day of the false flag operation to the enemy in advance?
    Spies?
  • Farooq said:

    Defamatory and poorly spelled.
    He didn't get the spell he deserved.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    TimT said:

    Firstly, anyone who has been to the caves in Lascaux or Font-de-Gaume would recognize that clearly intelligent life has been around at least 35,000 years, not 3,000. But why are you assuming that aliens would only visit earth once, especially if they found any form of life on their first visit. And why would you assume that they have to visit in order to observe us? Your assumptions indicate that your aliens only have human-level technology, or at best, human-imaginable technology.
    This is quite weak but I don't really have a lot of time to deal with it. Almost every part of this is flawed.

    Let me just stick to one basic point: the idea that alien intelligent life is going to zip back and forth between our earth and Betelgeuse is fanciful.

    Honestly, this isn't a pop at you but some people have watched too much science fiction pseudo-science and not looked at the physics of cosmology.

    The distances are VAST. Even travel close to the speed of light doesn't enable life forms to treat it as if you're popping out to Sainsbury's.

    The best hope for now for finding intelligent life in our galaxy is via advanced telescopes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    He didn't get the spell he deserved.
    Savile, Starmer, or Johnson?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    Heathener said:

    This is quite weak but I don't really have a lot of time to deal with it. Almost every part of this is flawed.

    Let me just stick to one basic point: the idea that alien intelligent life is going to zip back and forth between our earth and Betelgeuse is fanciful.

    Honestly, this isn't a pop at you but some people have watched too much science fiction pseudo-science and not looked at the physics of cosmology.

    The distances are VAST. Even travel close to the speed of light doesn't enable life forms to treat it as if you're popping out to Sainsbury's.

    The best hope for now for finding intelligent life in our galaxy is via advanced telescopes.
    I'm not a physicist. But - wouldn't the image in a telescope travel at the speed of light as well?

    Four years to the next nearest solar system, if memory serves.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    TimT said:

    Said every teenager, ever.
    Exactly! No-one is more purely perceptive than a teenager. The more you move away from the age of 15 the more cluttered up you get.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,431
    I have to admit to being a fan of Russian spokespeople. A great dry sense of humour (which the Russians are famous for anyway) but it does make some of those who interview them sound rather leaden footed
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,727
    kinabalu said:

    It feels like we're alone, though, doesn't it?
    A common feeling in primitive but intelligent species

    Plenty of isolated Pacific, Amazonian and oceanic insular tribes have believed they were essentially alone (apart from Gods and spirits - possibly, tellingly, folklore derived from glimpses of other humans). Even quite advanced civilisations like the Aztecs of MesoAmerica thought Mexico was basically IT, and were culturally shattered by the arrival of Spanish galleons

    Check out Contact Art drawn by remote Aboriginals on the rocks and barks of north Australia - in Kakadu and Arnhemland, or Garig Ganak Barlu (I've been there, and boy, you do feel alone). They painted technology they could not possibly comprehend, and they did it with great skill and sadness, as if they could foresee their impending destruction. they were right. Immensely moving

  • ydoethur said:

    Savile, Starmer, or Johnson?
    I think you mean Saville, Stramer and Jonson.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    kinabalu said:

    Tailing off a bit in my Waitrose now. Maybe 80% cf the previous 95%.
    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,702
    Farooq said:

    Quordle, never heard of it before:

    4️⃣8️⃣
    5️⃣6️⃣

    Surely 48:52
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    I think you mean Saville, Stramer and Jonson.
    James, Keith, and de Piffle?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,070

    Hm, I personally would say the Tories consolidating, and the left-of-centre always in double trouble on war issues - criticised from the left for being too compromised on issues of peace, and under a cloud of doubt as the not most reliable option in a war situation, from the right. That would also tally with a greater loss than Tory gain, to my mind, because I think there are fewer primarily militarily and strategically than peace-minded Labour voters.
    So what is the Conservative governments message and policies regarding Ukraine? Send anti tank weapons, call for restraint from the Russians whilst threatening the Russian people with sanctions and hardship?

    If you are standing shoulder to shoulder with someone who is about to be invaded because of stated aim of joining NATO and the EU, surely you Should be their advocate for fast track membership of NATO? Surely if you are going to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rights of a Nation to remain democratic and Sovereign, you threaten the invader with a no fly zone?

    Truth is, there is nothing in this governments stance and rhetoric the Labour front bench will have any problem endorsing or voting for.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    edited February 2022
    Cookie said:

    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
    The DfE don't require masks in schools. The advice on unis was separate and I don't think it's been withdrawn.

    Mask wearing has more or less vanished in my school.

    Edit - my mistake, the guidance was withdrawn for unis on the 27th January

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1048605/180122_Higher_education_COVID-19_operational_guidance.pdf (page 8)

    HOWEVER they note that local public health boards may require them, as in your case.
  • ydoethur said:

    James, Keith, and de Piffle?
    Now I can't stop thinking of an Inverted Pyramid de Pfeffel.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    ydoethur said:

    I'm not a physicist. But - wouldn't the image in a telescope travel at the speed of light as well?

    Four years to the next nearest solar system, if memory serves.
    Radio telescopes are really useful in this regard and the James Webb in terms of the infrared spectrum (though less about finding alien life). There are several other amazing telescopes in development across all spectrums of light and sound.

    But on your point, yes and no. Yes you're right. Light takes that long to reach us. But the good thing about that is that we don't have to take that long to receive it. Anything emitted, say, 1 million years ago (a speck in the time of the universe) might reach us today. Of course, we wouldn't be able to transmit back but we'd be able to know the intelligent life was there.

    As we look out we look back.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    Cookie said:

    On a whim, my wife has unilaterally dealt with half term childcare issues by taking the three of them to Lanzarote, on her own.
    She's an impressive woman.
    Anyway, she's sending me photos. And it all looks lovely - except in all of them when they're not in a pool, they're all wearing masks. These are children - my oldest is 11. Even at our most draconian, we didn't force children to wear masks.
    It's jarring, occasionally, to be reminded that most of continental Europe outside of Scandinavia are still gripped by this psychosis.
    It was the same watching the rugby at the weekend - slightly shocking to be reminded that Italy is still under all sorts of restrictions.
    My emotional instinct is to feel as annoyed that foreigners are forcing my daughters to cover their faces as I would if they gone to Iran. Because they're doing it for a belief system that I simply don't recognise.
    My rational brain can rein that in a bit, of course. But only a bit.
    Anyway, I am dealing with my four days off from parental responsibility by stopping at the pub on the way home from work. I had mooched around the Northern Quarter in Manchester, but none of the bars really appealed. Then where the Northern Quarter meets some 1980s social housing which has been bypassed by gentrification, I saw a pub I'd never seen before. It's like Early Doors in here - but Early Doors in a Friday at 10.30pm scene. At 6.30, the place was packed, people were singing and everyone appeared to know each other. The average age is at least 50, there is no craft beer and hipsters have given the place a wide berth - but nowhere in the Northern Quarter are people having more fun than here.

    Karaoke now well underway. Elvis featuring heavily.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 327
    ydoethur said:

    By whom? Surely even Lavrov isn't dense enough to send through the day of the false flag operation to the enemy in advance?
    If there is a war, I suspect that it will be mainly conducted in cyberspace. Perhaps the widespread (and unexplained) electricity blackout over much of North London and Hertfordshire last night was a first skirmish.
  • kinabalu said:

    It feels like we're alone, though, doesn't it?
    According to Tiffany, yes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,208
    Hmm CAS & Russia, like the WHO and China..
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621
    Cookie said:

    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
    I have been informed that the uni’s approach has come from above and also have evidence from another uni of the same message. It is couched as advice, but it’s definitely coming from somewhere.
  • Roger said:

    I have to admit to being a fan of Russian spokespeople. A great dry sense of humour (which the Russians are famous for anyway) but it does make some of those who interview them sound rather leaden footed

    I enjoyed the former Ukrainian defence minister on C4 news. "They are going to die"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,727
    Heathener said:

    It's not that simple I'm afraid (see my post below). The comparison doesn't work.

    In principle the idea that the early explorers were pioneering in much the same way we are now pioneering in space is an attractive one, quaint even. But it's poor science.

    The barrier to interstellar flight remains the vastness of space and the need to travel as close as possible to the speed of light. If it's physically impossible to go faster than the speed of light then even if you get to 99.99% of 186,000 miles a second the sheer vastness of the universe (including our galaxy) makes interstellar flight a major problem.

    It may be solvable but probably not by Christopher Nolan.
    But it is what we have done, even in our own primitive way. Our first space probes have already gone beyond the edge of the solar system, and are right now sailing into deep space

    The universe is at least 15 billion years old (possibly trillions, and it is possibly one of trillions of multiverse universes all interacting, etc etc). From what we can see of life on earth -all life shares one telling characteristic. It seeks to go forth and multiply. It is compelled to explore, and expand

    It feels like a universal rule. We can therefore expect to be visited, at least by machines. Maybe via wormholes! Yay wormholes
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Leon said:

    And how would a super advanced civilisation explore its local galaxy? The same way the first super advanced Chinese or European or Pacific civilisations explored the world - they sent out expendable machines in the form of ships with crews prepared to die, on journeys from which they would probably not return, nonetheless hoping to find new realms.
    Von Neumann machines. Unless FTL travel turns out to be possible and cheap.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Cookie said:

    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
    With me it's a mixture of conformity (a much underrated quality) and having got used to wearing one in the supermarket. I reckon I'll keep with it until it drops below 60% - then I might start going commando again.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited February 2022

    So what is the Conservative governments message and policies regarding Ukraine? Send anti tank weapons, call for restraint from the Russians whilst threatening the Russian people with sanctions and hardship?

    If you are standing shoulder to shoulder with someone who is about to be invaded because of stated aim of joining NATO and the EU, surely you Should be their advocate for fast track membership of NATO? Surely if you are going to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rights of a Nation to remain democratic and Sovereign, you threaten the invader with a no fly zone?

    Truth is, there is nothing in this governments stance and rhetoric the Labour front bench will have any problem endorsing or voting for.
    I personally wouldn't support a no-fly zone. Quite a high risk of escalation, and this isn't Saddam we're talking about, dont't forget.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,208
    TimT said:

    Firstly, anyone who has been to the caves in Lascaux or Font-de-Gaume would recognize that clearly intelligent life has been around at least 35,000 years, not 3,000. But why are you assuming that aliens would only visit earth once, especially if they found any form of life on their first visit. And why would you assume that they have to visit in order to observe us? Your assumptions indicate that your aliens only have human-level technology, or at best, human-imaginable technology.
    They aren't constrained by human level tech, but they are constrained by the laws of physics. Places in space are... far apart.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,194
    Cookie said:

    Karaoke now well underway. Elvis featuring heavily.
    I see why the hipsters have given it a wide berth...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495



    I personally wouldn't support a no-fly zone. Quite a high risk of escalation, and this isn't Saddam we're talking about, dont't forget.
    What would be the point of a no-fly zone? Haven't drones largely rendered that idea obsolete anyway?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,232

    Starmer should.
    Maybe Johnson will develop into the great Churchillian Statesman he so desires to emulate. Cometh the hour cometh the Big Dog?
  • RobD said:

    Spies?
    The US has been predicting a Wednesday invasion since the end of last week.

    The false flag operation will be virtual, it has probably already been filmed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,702
    I mean the curling. Seriously?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,194



    I personally wouldn't support a no-fly zone. Quite a high risk of escalation, and this isn't Saddam we're talking about, dont't forget.
    It is a very different war without air superiority, and at the very least contested air.
  • Meanwhile, more news from the Met:

    Met drugs chief faces sack for ‘taking LSD and cannabis’

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-drugs-chief-faces-sack-for-taking-lsd-and-cannabis-vq88jvvc2 (£)

    He's been suspended on full pay since July 2020.

    Can he ice-skate?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,208
    edited February 2022
    Cookie said:

    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
    Mask use anecdote in the big Teso at Gorton - low.

    Perhaps more worryingly there was no fuel at the pumps this morning... it was £1.459 for diesel though which is as cheap as I've seen fuel anywhere except Costco.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    A common feeling in primitive but intelligent species

    Plenty of isolated Pacific, Amazonian and oceanic insular tribes have believed they were essentially alone (apart from Gods and spirits - possibly, tellingly, folklore derived from glimpses of other humans). Even quite advanced civilisations like the Aztecs of MesoAmerica thought Mexico was basically IT, and were culturally shattered by the arrival of Spanish galleons

    Check out Contact Art drawn by remote Aboriginals on the rocks and barks of north Australia - in Kakadu and Arnhemland, or Garig Ganak Barlu (I've been there, and boy, you do feel alone). They painted technology they could not possibly comprehend, and they did it with great skill and sadness, as if they could foresee their impending destruction. they were right. Immensely moving
    It's immensely moving and indeed mindblowing either way. Alone is immensely moving and mindblowing, not alone is immensely moving and mindblowing. Best, therefore, to only think about in a limited and highly controlled way. Have a box, bring it out now and again, open the lid, have a quick look and a ponder, then slam the lid and phone somebody bluff and reassuringly grounded.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    kinabalu said:

    With me it's a mixture of conformity (a much underrated quality) and having got used to wearing one in the supermarket. I reckon I'll keep with it until it drops below 60% - then I might start going commando again.
    I didn't think I'd be the first to demask. I thought thr balance between wanting to demask and wanting to conform would see me demasking when about 30% of others were doing so.

    I was quite surprised that my level was about 5%. If there was one other person unmasked then I would unmask too.

    I don't want to make people uncomfortable or worried. But if people are only waiting for me to unmask before doing so, then I don't mind sticking out.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,877
    edited February 2022
    The key point to be aware of with the will-they-won't-they Russian invasion is that absolutely no-one will jump to Ukraine's aid if Russia does invade. Everyone knows this. The West's options are to sanction Russia after the fact, such that Russia ends up as Iran Mark II. (I note Iran's GDP per head is half what it was in the seventies).

    The question now is whether there is value in the West doing a deal with Russia that accepts Russia will continue to destabilise Ukraine, but stops short of actual invasion. The West might be interested in such a deal because it doesn't want to apply severe sanctions on Russia. They hurt the West too and they are one shot leaving it with no further leverage. The outcome will be bad for Ukraine under all circumstances but this way they may avoid total annihilation.

    There is a lot of risk with attempting a deal: Putin may overplay his hand, demand more than the West is prepared to offer, forcing him into a corner. The West could agree a deal with Putin, only for him to renege, which doesn't do anything for its credibility. Finally if there is a deal it rewards Russian aggression, which is not a good pattern.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    It is a very different war without air superiority, and at the very least contested air.
    The West itself shooting down Russian aircraft, even unmanned, could take us further than the Cuban missile crisis in this situation, I would say. I'm sure that military planners know that, which is why it isn't really being raised.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    Foxy said:

    I see why the hipsters have given it a wide berth...
    The guy doing karaoke is wearing a high-vis coat.
    This is the least hipster place in the Northern Quarter.
    Consequently, you have actual conversations with other customers.
    None of them necessarily make sense, but that's a secondary issue.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,877
    Pulpstar said:

    Mask use anecdote in the big Teso at Gorton - low.

    Perhaps more worryingly there was no fuel at the pumps this morning... it was £1.459 for diesel though which is as cheap as I've seen fuel anywhere except Costco.
    The Tesco nearest me was tomato-less today with ongoing shortages. Is that still the Brexit related driver shortage?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Hmm CAS & Russia, like the WHO and China..

    And only last week we were being told on here that any scepticism about Kamila Valerievna's performance was down racism.
  • FF43 said:

    The Tesco nearest me was tomato-less today with ongoing shortages. Is that still the Brexit related driver shortage?
    No. The PB Tories in the morning thread assured me that Brexit is a success...
  • FF43 said:

    The Tesco nearest me was tomato-less today with ongoing shortages. Is that still the Brexit related driver shortage?
    Now you mention it, there were a couple of gaps on Sainsbury's shelves but I thought maybe it was due to Valentine's Day moving stock around or something.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,727
    #BREAKING: Russian units have left their assembly areas and begun to move into attack positions. Some long-range artillery and rocket launchers have also been moved into firing positions- US official to @CBSNews reports


    https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1493299560449519618?s=20&t=VapjW_WkL9ShkFnwI50EWQ
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621
    kinabalu said:

    With me it's a mixture of conformity (a much underrated quality) and having got used to wearing one in the supermarket. I reckon I'll keep with it until it drops below 60% - then I might start going commando again.
    Yes, but what about the mask? :D
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    Pulpstar said:

    Mask use anecdote in the big Teso at Gorton - low.

    Perhaps more worryingly there was no fuel at the pumps this morning... it was £1.459 for diesel though which is as cheap as I've seen fuel anywhere except Costco.
    I don't think I knew you were in Manchester Pulpstar.

    Maybe the price is why there was no fuel. I haven’t seen any shortages anywhere else.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    kinabalu said:

    Excellent news, Isam's back!

    Are you still ok with our £300/£100 bet on Starmer PM after the GE? I do hope so.
    I don't have a bet with you. Who is Isam?
  • Cookie said:

    I'm not sure DfE are advising mask use. Granted this is schools not unis, but the pressure in Trafford comes from Trafford public health.
    Who, quite frankly, need putting back in their box.

    In Sale, mask compliance in Sainsburys (c. 60%) comfortably above that in Tesco (c. 20%). Messaging in both is very similar. Partly I put it down to people conforming to those around them. And partly a subtle socio-economic difference between the two.
    Interesting because the two shops are only a few minutes walk apart from each other. I used to shop in them both.

    What is the mask compliance like in the rest of Sale?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,877

    Now you mention it, there were a couple of gaps on Sainsbury's shelves but I thought maybe it was due to Valentine's Day moving stock around or something.
    Unless we are all giving romantic packs of tomatoes for Valentines, I don't think so. Normally there are a dozen varieties in that supermarket.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Cookie said:

    Karaoke now well underway. Elvis featuring heavily.
    Which one are you doing?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,992

    The West itself shooting down Russian aircraft, even unmanned, could take us further than the Cuban missile crisis in this situation, I would say. I'm sure that military planners know that, which is why it isn't really being raised.
    Exactly, Ukraine is a non NATO nation and if Russia invades it will be economic sanctions only from the West
  • No. The PB Tories in the morning thread assured me that Brexit is a success...
    Starmer seems to think so as he declared today labour will not rejoin the EU
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    FF43 said:

    The key point to be aware of with the will-they-won't-they Russian invasion is that absolutely no-one will jump to Ukraine's aid if Russia does invade. Everyone knows this. The West's options are to sanction Russia after the fact, such that Russia ends up as Iran Mark II. (I note Iran's GDP per head is half what it was in the seventies).

    The question now is whether there is value in the West doing a deal with Russia that accepts Russia will continue to destabilise Ukraine, but stops short of actual invasion. The West might be interested in such a deal because it doesn't want to apply severe sanctions on Russia. They hurt the West too and they are one shot leaving it with no further leverage. The outcome will be bad for Ukraine under all circumstances but this way they may avoid total annihilation.

    There is a lot of risk with attempting a deal: Putin may overplay his hand, demand more than the West is prepared to offer, forcing him into a corner. The West could agree a deal with Putin, only for him to renege, which doesn't do anything for its credibility. Finally if there is a deal it rewards Russian aggression, which is not a good pattern.

    Why would anyone do a deal with somebody who has repeatedly demonstrated he thinks rules and laws apply to other people?

    The comparisons with Hitler are more than a little overblown, but in one respect they are similar - Hitler didn't care about rules and agreements. He did whatever suited him, often improvising impulsively as he felt like it. So does Putin.

    If we signed a treaty with him that agreed he could have the land around the Sea of Azov in exchange for being nice to the Ukraine in future, in six months he'll be after Odessa.

    So it would be foolish to do a deal. Just punish him as far as can be. It wouldn't be that difficult to freeze his banking system harder than Molotov's smile.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    The official Russian figures are unreliable, but Russia has just overtaken the UK in terms of deaths per capita from Covid-19.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,505
    Leon said:

    Indeed. It is mathematically near-certain other sentient life forms have evolved somewhere out there in the TRILLIONS of stars in billions of galaxies, with mega-bazillions of planets

    And how would a super advanced civilisation explore its local galaxy? The same way the first super advanced Chinese or European or Pacific civilisations explored the world - they sent out expendable machines in the form of ships with crews prepared to die, on journeys from which they would probably not return, nonetheless hoping to find new realms.

    For me it seems quite probable that the galaxy is swarming with AI-powered drones, near indestructible, able to survive enormously long interstellar journeys, which are busy sending back info about any life they find, to the Home Planet.

    And that COULD be what we are seeing. Alien drones with "AI pilots", not alien life itself- tho at some point the difference between "intelligent life" and "AI" must be debatable, and perhaps absurd and irrelevant
    This maths; can you show us your workings?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Farooq said:

    Russia is waiting for the Sue Gray report as well, it seems.

    Putin is trolling the West, I think. He won't be invading.

    And, god, his BO must be really something, size of that table.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited February 2022
    Meanwhile, the Mauritian flag has just been raised on the Chagos Islands.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60378487


    Another disgraceful episode in British colonialism
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,070



    I personally wouldn't support a no-fly zone. Quite a high risk of escalation, and this isn't Saddam we're talking about, dont't forget.
    So shoulder to shoulder for Sovereignty and Democracy, only when the opponent is a pip squeak you can crush under foot, you are suggesting is this government policy regards Ukraine? Actually I wouldn’t argue with that, it rings true and matches as Ben Wallace loudly flagged up, there’s more than a whiff of 1938 appeasement built into that - it’s certainly identical to the 1945 sell outs to Russia.

    So that only leaves a negotiated settlement as the best way forward? Where for example Ukraine has intent to join both NATO and retake Crimea from Russia - is it clear what the governments formulae are for the negotiated peace? Is it clear which items of the Minsk Protocols the UK could endorse and which would be red lines? What have they actually told the British electorate that is helpful and meaningful?

    There are increasing voices now from within the Conservatives whether the Government have the right policy for this crisis, or just hollow rhetoric. And there are other voices in the financial media questioning if we can go through with or sustain the threatened sanctions. Failing to prevent the war and having to go through with sanctions and retaliations won’t be good for British business or anyone in UK either - at what point does the UK government have a dialogue with us about the need for that?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    Andy_JS said:

    The official Russian figures are unreliable, but Russia has just overtaken the UK in terms of deaths per capita from Covid-19.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Good job Putin's not planning to recklessly endanger thousands more lives for silly reasons then.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    FF43 said:

    The key point to be aware of with the will-they-won't-they Russian invasion is that absolutely no-one will jump to Ukraine's aid if Russia does invade. Everyone knows this. The West's options are to sanction Russia after the fact, such that Russia ends up as Iran Mark II. (I note Iran's GDP per head is half what it was in the seventies).

    The question now is whether there is value in the West doing a deal with Russia that accepts Russia will continue to destabilise Ukraine, but stops short of actual invasion. The West might be interested in such a deal because it doesn't want to apply severe sanctions on Russia. They hurt the West too and they are one shot leaving it with no further leverage. The outcome will be bad for Ukraine under all circumstances but this way they may avoid total annihilation.

    There is a lot of risk with attempting a deal: Putin may overplay his hand, demand more than the West is prepared to offer, forcing him into a corner. The West could agree a deal with Putin, only for him to renege, which doesn't do anything for its credibility. Finally if there is a deal it rewards Russian aggression, which is not a good pattern.

    Your Iran stat is startling. Presumably that's in real terms? That is, each Iranian can afford half as much stuff as his counterpart in the 70s?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Leon said:

    #BREAKING: Russian units have left their assembly areas and begun to move into attack positions. Some long-range artillery and rocket launchers have also been moved into firing positions- US official to @CBSNews reports


    https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1493299560449519618?s=20&t=VapjW_WkL9ShkFnwI50EWQ

    I wonder what "event" Putin is going to use to justify an invasion.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Even the Times had a report about Britain's 'shameful' history in the Chagos Islands

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/story-of-chagos-islands-is-one-of-the-most-shameful-in-recent-british-history-6fc07rst0fg

    Well done Mauritius for telling Britain to fuck off.
  • Pulpstar said:

    They aren't constrained by human level tech, but they are constrained by the laws of physics. Places in space are... far apart.
    There is also a statistical argument to explain the Fermi Paradox - namely that we are 13 billion years into the life of a universe that may last a trillion or 100 trillion years. In other words we are in the "fires of creation" stage since the universe will go dark long before it expires.

    Perhaps we are alone because we live in the first 0.013% of the universe;s expected life (1.3% if you only allow a trillion year life span).

    Most of history has not happened yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder what "event" Putin is going to use to justify an invasion.
    If he wanted to really troll us, he would say Ukrainian secret agents masquerading as tourists visiting the cathedral had committed an atrocity in Rostov on Don.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Applicant said:

    I don't have a bet with you. Who is Isam?
    Ho ho. Nice one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    Leon said:

    #BREAKING: Russian units have left their assembly areas and begun to move into attack positions. Some long-range artillery and rocket launchers have also been moved into firing positions- US official to @CBSNews reports


    https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1493299560449519618?s=20&t=VapjW_WkL9ShkFnwI50EWQ

    Ahem, proactive defense positions, thank you. Any other term is just western escalation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,727
    Not promising, either



    "A pretext for war? Russian TV propagandists claim 'thousands of civilians have been tortured and savagely killed' by Ukraine amid invasion fears - and Moscow threatens to FIRE on US ships in its waters after submarine row"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10510145/Russian-state-media-begins-propaganda-push-amid-fears-Ukraine-invasion-imminent.html


    This is EXACTLY what AUKUS intel predicted. False Flag stuff today and tomorrow, attack on Wednesday
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,815
    kjh said:

    This maths; can you show us your workings?
    Does the Drake equation count?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,789
    ydoethur said:

    Good job Putin's not planning to recklessly endanger thousands more lives for silly reasons then.
    Though by excess deaths, Russian deaths are three times that of 'Britain' (as the economist stats idiosyncratically refer to us).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder what "event" Putin is going to use to justify an invasion.
    Those Ukranians are crazy - they are utterly powerless before the mighty Russian army who will wreak such vengeance, yet also desperate to launch an assault on Russia.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,232

    Starmer seems to think so as he declared today labour will not rejoin the EU
    LDs get my vote then.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,600

    .

    I am not sure how you reach that conclusion.
    Told him what she thought he wanted to hear :smile:
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,070

    Starmer seems to think so as he declared today labour will not rejoin the EU
    You are right Big G - in all the other goings on it’s under the radar this is the first time the Labour leadership have stated this clear position since the morning of the 2016 referendum outcome.

    Maybe Starmer thinks it’s a good day to bury bad news 😁
  • Starmer seems to think so as he declared today labour will not rejoin the EU
    I expect Starmer has learned the correct level of "truth" from the Irish Sea border method that Boris exhibited. Id Starmer an election we shall join EFTA/ EEA instead
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,877
    ydoethur said:

    Why would anyone do a deal with somebody who has repeatedly demonstrated he thinks rules and laws apply to other people?

    The comparisons with Hitler are more than a little overblown, but in one respect they are similar - Hitler didn't care about rules and agreements. He did whatever suited him, often improvising impulsively as he felt like it. So does Putin.

    If we signed a treaty with him that agreed he could have the land around the Sea of Azov in exchange for being nice to the Ukraine in future, in six months he'll be after Odessa.

    So it would be foolish to do a deal. Just punish him as far as can be. It wouldn't be that difficult to freeze his banking system harder than Molotov's smile.
    One major difference with Hitler as it turned out is that other countries did eventually go to war against him. The chances of anyone coming to Ukraine's defence to push back a Russian attack is nil. No-one is spelling it out, but everyone knows this. The leverage that the West has is after the effect sanctions, which results in Ukraine being destroyed and no further leverage over Russia possible. I don't think a deal that aims to pre-empt that outcome is necessarily stupid. There is a lot of risk in attempting it, but as I have said there is also a lot of risk in not attempting it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, the Mauritian flag has just been raised on the Chagos Islands.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60378487


    Another disgraceful episode in British colonialism

    I know little of the history, but this comment struck me as odd:

    The official reason given for the Mauritian government's excursion is to map reefs around the archipelago - but Mr Jugnauth described the visit as "the first time Mauritius has led an expedition to this part of its territory".

    Surely that’s not true. It would rather undermine their claim.
  • The United States is temporarily closing its embassy in Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital and moving embassy operations to Lviv, a city much farther from Russian territory, the State Department said on Monday, citing the Russian military buildup near Ukraine.

    NY Times blog
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,924
    Wednesday has been so telegraphed now that it would surely be absolutely insane if Russia did attack on Wednesday.
  • Starmer seems to think so as he declared today labour will not rejoin the EU
    Isn't that a statement of fact rather than a policy?
  • ydoethur said:

    If he wanted to really troll us, he would say Ukrainian secret agents masquerading as tourists visiting the cathedral had committed an atrocity in Rostov on Don.
    It's quite pretty, but not world-class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostov-on-Don_Cathedral
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,815
    Leon said:

    Not promising, either



    "A pretext for war? Russian TV propagandists claim 'thousands of civilians have been tortured and savagely killed' by Ukraine amid invasion fears - and Moscow threatens to FIRE on US ships in its waters after submarine row"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10510145/Russian-state-media-begins-propaganda-push-amid-fears-Ukraine-invasion-imminent.html


    This is EXACTLY what AUKUS intel predicted. False Flag stuff today and tomorrow, attack on Wednesday

    But Macron was so confidently leaking that Ukraine giving up NATO ambitions would lead to peace. You're surely not telling me that Macron giving everything up has made precisely zero difference?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    Wednesday has been so telegraphed now that it would surely be absolutely insane if Russia did attack on Wednesday.

    When's that ever stopped Putin? Think how long he was telegraphing his intent to seize the Crimea.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,232

    No. The PB Tories in the morning thread assured me that Brexit is a success...
    After a few weeks hiding behind the sofa Boris' PB Brexit heroes are back.

    Don't forget food shortages are not the fault of Brexit, have you not heard of Covid19 or World War 3?
  • LDs get my vote then.
    Not Plaid Cymru? 😄
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    It's quite pretty, but not world-class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostov-on-Don_Cathedral
    Are you suggesting that unlike Salisbury it's not in spire in?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,727
    tlg86 said:

    I know little of the history, but this comment struck me as odd:

    The official reason given for the Mauritian government's excursion is to map reefs around the archipelago - but Mr Jugnauth described the visit as "the first time Mauritius has led an expedition to this part of its territory".

    Surely that’s not true. It would rather undermine their claim.
    Quite. The Chagos Islanders have grounds for grievance (tho we are now heftily recompensing them) but the Mauritian claim is bollocks

    The fact is the islands aren't worth much, but they are surrounded by hugely wealthy, pristine waters, rich in marine life and minerals. That's what Mauritius wants, their anti-colonial stance is total shite
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,801

    The United States is temporarily closing its embassy in Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital and moving embassy operations to Lviv, a city much farther from Russian territory, the State Department said on Monday, citing the Russian military buildup near Ukraine.

    NY Times blog

    Perhaps Lviv will end up as the capital of a rump Ukrainian state.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    edited February 2022
    tlg86 said:

    I know little of the history, but this comment struck me as odd:

    The official reason given for the Mauritian government's excursion is to map reefs around the archipelago - but Mr Jugnauth described the visit as "the first time Mauritius has led an expedition to this part of its territory".

    Surely that’s not true. It would rather undermine their claim.
    Presumably not, since their independence was in the 60s so they wouldn't have had a chance, as Mauritius, to have an expedition there.

    Were it not for the US base on the islands we probably I assume we would have given them back by now.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,924
    ydoethur said:

    When's that ever stopped Putin? Think how long he was telegraphing his intent to seize the Crimea.
    Oh I'm not saying he won't attack - just that it seems crazy that you'd do it on the day the world is expecting you to do it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    Perhaps Lviv will end up as the capital of a rump Ukrainian state.
    It is alarming that the US considers Kyiv a possible target. That suggests they expect far more than an attempt to push through to the Crimea along the Sea of Azov.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495

    Oh I'm not saying he won't attack - just that it seems crazy that you'd do it on the day the world is expecting you to do it.
    I think we should perhaps consider the possibility and even the probability that he is at least slightly crazy.
This discussion has been closed.