"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
There is no British law! It's the law of E&W or the law of Scotland.
A "deal" is generally the best outcome of a civil claim, as it saves the cost of days and days in court. Something else again is what Epstein tried to do here which is buy out future claims against third parties as part of the settlement. I doubt this will work, because 1. there's the rule of privity of contract which says that you can't enforce a contract you were not a party to even if it says it is for your benefit 2. it is really badly, because too widely, worded - read literally anyone in the world who had ever wronged ms giuffre could rely on it 3 it was a florida suit so presumably only covers people who allegedly abused her in Florida. ~Standing up and saying Hey I am entitled to rely on this because Florida was one of the places I definitely didn't rape her, no siree, even though she says I raped her in NY and London, is a bit incoherent.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
Remember that this is a civil action - in UK law the parties can always make a "deal" and agree to finish the case with an arrangement 'certified' (correct word?) by the Court.
In her previous activities afaik Giuffre has always been after compensation not convictions.
In UK Criminal Law the deals AIUI are normally a little subliminal and revolve around what you are charged with eg "plead guilty to a lesser offence", or the police offering a caution if they are not confident of a conviction.
I have to say that if that agreement was before a Scottish or English court this case would be over. Indeed, it should never have started.
So she was paid off by Epstein for hiring her as a party girl when she was underage, she took a pile of money and agreed never to mention underage sex parties again. Now, two decades later, she’s going after people who were at the parties for another shakedown, which contradicts the original agreement.
They are dancing in SS uniforms through a London council estate - I suppose the fact neither was white was the point but that was a little "on the nose" for me but I suppose that makes me irredeemably woke!
Clive James commented on that one .. in March 1980, and got it pitch-perfect:
By sharp contrast, The Kenny Everett Video Show (Thames) knows exactly what it is up to image-wise. Tightly controlled by a producer who must have the patience and reflexes to pick up spilled mercury with his bare hands, Kenny has been giving the land of the media one lesson after another in how to keep link-material short, sour and funny. Meanwhile the musical numbers going on up front continue to be the most interesting on television. Unfortunately he has finally allowed his dance group, Hot Gossip, to blot his copybook — not with their alleged eroticism, which is in fact no more attractive than an enema, but with their dim-witted desire to hop about in Nazi uniforms.
In the latest episode the desire was made real. Up until now they have stylised their yearning for the glamour of the Third Reich, but this time they let it all hang down. The black male dancers in the group made a sudden, supposedly dramatic appearance dressed as SS officers. The girls in the group reacted with suitable writhings of submissive lust. I hope it doesn’t sound like racism when I say that the black male dancers in Hot Gossip have always been a dead bore, mainly because of their humourless frowns of concentration while making movements with their hips which suggest a doomed, no-hands attempt to scratch their groins against an invisible tree. But boredom is one thing and blasphemy is another.
Hot Gossip are probably hard to talk to either collectively or individually, but Kenny Everett is a bright character, so here goes. The Nazis are a joke all right, but they are not yet a joke to make lightly. They are history’s joke on the human race, and will remain so until the last of their victims has gone beyond the reach of being hurt further by a casual insult. It insults not just millions of dead, but a lot of people still living, to employ these images of horror without caring what they really mean. It was perfectly obvious that the Hot Gossip dancers had dressed themselves up as Nazis without having any real idea of the suffering the Nazis caused and the scale on which they caused it. But that’s what blasphemy is — to cheapen the central experience of other people’s lives.
"The Nazis are a joke all right, but they are not yet a joke to make lightly" is just so bang on the money. It's why I think Death of Stalin is a great film, but can't bear 'Allo 'Allo.
There is a stupid person trap built in to the previous sentence, please refrain from falling in to it.
Read it very carefully, you will post it only once?
'Allo, 'Allo had its moments, and certain aspects remain memes to this day. It was a spoof of the serious drama "Secret Army" which it long outlived. Like many series it went on too long.
Which was a tragedy, really, since once the prima facie jokes have worn off, Allo Allo quickly reveals itself as tired and shallow, whereas Secret Army was seriously good drama for its time, breaking ground not least in being the first dramatic attempt to explore the dynamics and tensions within the German side, and stands the test of time in re-watching even today.
Enemy at the Door, the ITV drama set in the Channel Islands, shown around the same time also did the same. Looking at tensions on both sides.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
There is no British law! It's the law of E&W or the law of Scotland.
A "deal" is generally the best outcome of a civil claim, as it saves the cost of days and days in court. Something else again is what Epstein tried to do here which is buy out future claims against third parties as part of the settlement. I doubt this will work, because 1. there's the rule of privity of contract which says that you can't enforce a contract you were not a party to even if it says it is for your benefit 2. it is really badly, because too widely, worded - read literally anyone in the world who had ever wronged ms giuffre could rely on it 3 it was a florida suit so presumably only covers people who allegedly abused her in Florida. ~Standing up and saying Hey I am entitled to rely on this because Florida was one of the places I definitely didn't rape her, no siree, even though she says I raped her in NY and London, is a bit incoherent.
Apologies, by 'British law' I was using a catch all for any of the legal systems existing in the UK. I know that English and Scottish law is different so 'British law' is simply a cover-all.
@MaxPB I actually tried out your pizza dough recipe this weekend. It was an omnishambles of clusterfucks. I am too ashamed to post the photo.
Something went wrong and the dough was too springy and when I tried to stretch it out into a circle it kept snapping back. Which meant the overall shape was like a dogs dick but it had thin bits in the middle where the cheese seeped through to the pizza stone and thick bits that didn’t cook inside.
I shall persist…
I think probably where I went wrong was it was still sticky after i kneaded it. Then I let it prove on the counter for a few hours because it sounded odd to do it the fridge. By which time it was massive. And then by the time I took it out the fridge the next day it had all collapsed. Finally I forgot to put anything on the pizza stone and the “pizza” stuck to it.
But did it taste good?
Some clues in their rob, "Dog's Dick " , "seeping cheese" to name but a few that would point to the negative.
The shape of it hardly matters, might have tasted delicious.
If you offered me a pizza with an "it's like a dogs dick with seeping cheese" I am not sure anyone could imagine it tasting delicious, for normal people the connotations would be sufficient to ensure otherwise.
A man goes into a theater. It takes a while for his eyes to adjust, so at first he doesn't realize that, sitting next to the man in front of him, is a large dog.
As the first man watches the movie he begins to think that the dog is watching it, too. The dog wags its tail when something funny happens, gives a low whine when the action gets tense, and growls softly at the villain.
Finally, the first man does what I would probably do. He taps the man ahead of him on the shoulder and says: "Excuse me, but your dog's behavior seems kind of unusual."
The second man turns around and says: "Frankly, it surprises me, too. He hated the book."
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
They are dancing in SS uniforms through a London council estate - I suppose the fact neither was white was the point but that was a little "on the nose" for me but I suppose that makes me irredeemably woke!
Clive James commented on that one .. in March 1980, and got it pitch-perfect:
By sharp contrast, The Kenny Everett Video Show (Thames) knows exactly what it is up to image-wise. Tightly controlled by a producer who must have the patience and reflexes to pick up spilled mercury with his bare hands, Kenny has been giving the land of the media one lesson after another in how to keep link-material short, sour and funny. Meanwhile the musical numbers going on up front continue to be the most interesting on television. Unfortunately he has finally allowed his dance group, Hot Gossip, to blot his copybook — not with their alleged eroticism, which is in fact no more attractive than an enema, but with their dim-witted desire to hop about in Nazi uniforms.
In the latest episode the desire was made real. Up until now they have stylised their yearning for the glamour of the Third Reich, but this time they let it all hang down. The black male dancers in the group made a sudden, supposedly dramatic appearance dressed as SS officers. The girls in the group reacted with suitable writhings of submissive lust. I hope it doesn’t sound like racism when I say that the black male dancers in Hot Gossip have always been a dead bore, mainly because of their humourless frowns of concentration while making movements with their hips which suggest a doomed, no-hands attempt to scratch their groins against an invisible tree. But boredom is one thing and blasphemy is another.
Hot Gossip are probably hard to talk to either collectively or individually, but Kenny Everett is a bright character, so here goes. The Nazis are a joke all right, but they are not yet a joke to make lightly. They are history’s joke on the human race, and will remain so until the last of their victims has gone beyond the reach of being hurt further by a casual insult. It insults not just millions of dead, but a lot of people still living, to employ these images of horror without caring what they really mean. It was perfectly obvious that the Hot Gossip dancers had dressed themselves up as Nazis without having any real idea of the suffering the Nazis caused and the scale on which they caused it. But that’s what blasphemy is — to cheapen the central experience of other people’s lives.
"The Nazis are a joke all right, but they are not yet a joke to make lightly" is just so bang on the money. It's why I think Death of Stalin is a great film, but can't bear 'Allo 'Allo.
There is a stupid person trap built in to the previous sentence, please refrain from falling in to it.
Read it very carefully, you will post it only once?
'Allo, 'Allo had its moments, and certain aspects remain memes to this day. It was a spoof of the serious drama "Secret Army" which it long outlived. Like many series it went on too long.
Secret Army spawned an even better drama, Kessler, where Clifford Rose’s titular character was a succesful businessman after the war and is hunted by Nazi hunters. Only six episodes and it was exceptional.
The secret army episode that wasn’t shown is also excellent. What did you do in the war, daddy.
Croft and Perry, as well as Croft and Lloyd, did tend to go on for a few seasons too many. They just run out of ideas. There is only so much you can do in a department store or a holiday camp.
@MaxPB I actually tried out your pizza dough recipe this weekend. It was an omnishambles of clusterfucks. I am too ashamed to post the photo.
Something went wrong and the dough was too springy and when I tried to stretch it out into a circle it kept snapping back. Which meant the overall shape was like a dogs dick but it had thin bits in the middle where the cheese seeped through to the pizza stone and thick bits that didn’t cook inside.
I shall persist…
I think probably where I went wrong was it was still sticky after i kneaded it. Then I let it prove on the counter for a few hours because it sounded odd to do it the fridge. By which time it was massive. And then by the time I took it out the fridge the next day it had all collapsed. Finally I forgot to put anything on the pizza stone and the “pizza” stuck to it.
Ah yeah, you have to prove it in the fridge or it won't work. It will overprove at room temperature and just go slack.
Noted thanks! Quite cocky of me to mess with your recipe given I have never made bread before
What is Max's pizza dough recipe - please can you re-post.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
@MaxPB I actually tried out your pizza dough recipe this weekend. It was an omnishambles of clusterfucks. I am too ashamed to post the photo.
Something went wrong and the dough was too springy and when I tried to stretch it out into a circle it kept snapping back. Which meant the overall shape was like a dogs dick but it had thin bits in the middle where the cheese seeped through to the pizza stone and thick bits that didn’t cook inside.
I shall persist…
I think probably where I went wrong was it was still sticky after i kneaded it. Then I let it prove on the counter for a few hours because it sounded odd to do it the fridge. By which time it was massive. And then by the time I took it out the fridge the next day it had all collapsed. Finally I forgot to put anything on the pizza stone and the “pizza” stuck to it.
But did it taste good?
Some clues in their rob, "Dog's Dick " , "seeping cheese" to name but a few that would point to the negative.
The shape of it hardly matters, might have tasted delicious.
If you offered me a pizza with an "it's like a dogs dick with seeping cheese" I am not sure anyone could imagine it tasting delicious, for normal people the connotations would be sufficient to ensure otherwise.
@MaxPB I actually tried out your pizza dough recipe this weekend. It was an omnishambles of clusterfucks. I am too ashamed to post the photo.
Something went wrong and the dough was too springy and when I tried to stretch it out into a circle it kept snapping back. Which meant the overall shape was like a dogs dick but it had thin bits in the middle where the cheese seeped through to the pizza stone and thick bits that didn’t cook inside.
I shall persist…
I think probably where I went wrong was it was still sticky after i kneaded it. Then I let it prove on the counter for a few hours because it sounded odd to do it the fridge. By which time it was massive. And then by the time I took it out the fridge the next day it had all collapsed. Finally I forgot to put anything on the pizza stone and the “pizza” stuck to it.
Oh man!
Was there anything else that could have gone wrong?
Watched Don't Look Up last night. It is properly entertaining, and a clever premise - comet as allegory for climate change. And there are some brilliant moments, especially at the start, when the astronomers encounter outrageous NORMALCY BIAS
But then it becomes uneven in tone, sometimes low farce, sometimes witty comedy, sometimes sentimental drama, and they jar, and the parochial Americanism is tedious, especially the laboured, lazy assaults on Trumpism and silly white people. Yes yes yes we know they are awful but it's such a crappy obvious target, and it is annoying and boring.
It's a film that wants to be Doctor Strangelove for global warming but lacks the Southern/Kubrick Strangelove script - and it lacks Peter Sellers - one star to bring together a stellar cast. Something of a missed opportunity. Coulda been a masterpiece
For all the talk among the "right on" lefty comedians that one should only punch up and speak truth to power, it does seem thick (British / American) white working class (Brexit / Trump voter) have become the go to punch line of lazy joke in the way the "thick" Irish were at one point for right wing comedians.
Yes, exactly. Laughing at Maga hat wearers is like laughing at Mother in Law Jokes in the 70s. Pathetically feeble comedy
If you have to do it find a new and stealthy way, at least. The racist old school pilot was cringeworthy
Satirizing dumbo enablers of the most toxic politician in the western world in 2021 is like laughing at Mother in Law jokes in 1971?
Hmm. Ok.
The point is not to equate Mother-in-Laws to Trumpsters, but to equate the laziness of the comedians.
Yes, sure. Comedians in their comfort zone. But is there more of that now than in previous times? I'd need a lot of convincing.
maybe not. Indeed, in the past, with fewer channels through which to be exposed to comedians, we saw each comedian less frequently and fewer overall. And so their material aged less quickly, and it was harder to compare material across comedians. So you may have a point. But so what? It does not improve the quality of the material, or the validity of criticizing it.
No, I've caught some of it and I do know what you mean. Tedious. But thing is, Trump and MAGA is such a massive all-consuming thing to have happened to America that I think it's inevitable he and it dominates here too - on comedy material. And since you can't really laugh WITH him (unless you're a bad bad person) you're left with laughing at him, and also (since they adore him) at his supporters.
Yep, Trump definitely needs to be mercilessly ridiculed and he provided a near endless stream of material to do just that. I just expect professional comedians to do it with originality and humour, rather than simply state "Trump is a c8nt" and demand that people laugh.
Personally, I am less comfortable with taking the piss out of his supporters. We need to convince them to stop supporting Trumpism, and we don't do that by ridiculing them as people.
I'll start with the obvious disclaimer that I'm no fan of Trump. But the problem with the instinctive 'ha, ha, isn't Donald Trump awful' position is that even stupid and awful people are right sometimes. Too many people have started from the position that if Donald Trump says something it must be wrong. And we end up with daft positions like 'it's racist to suggest lab leak'. Similarly, we end up giving Joe Biden carte blanche to do what he likes (like the Afghanistan cock up) because hey, he's not Donald Trump. So let's have some nuance. Similarly, Boris has sometimes done the right thing in the face of fashionable disapproval (like not joining the European vaccine procurement scheme.) Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn was not wrong all the time. Awful people are sometimes right. Often, in fact. The problem with being constantly furious is that you end up dismissing the ideas of your political opponents because they come from your political opponents, not because they are bad.
Fully agree with that.
Indeed, Trump's genius is to identify the issues that evoke the strongest emotional response in his target audience (i.e. real issues that need to be addressed) and to exploit them for personal political advantage. So, on some things, Trump was indeed right. The need to confront China, the need to get other NATO countries to pull their own weight. The need to address disaffection caused by immigration and globalization. But, while he spotted a number of key issues that weren't being discussed enough or tackled, he was rarely right on the answers, and even when he was right on solutions, his approach was usually suboptimally effective.
Spot on.
Of course, in some cases (like NATO), it turned out he didn't actually want the Germans to spend more on their military, but to send money to the US. Which, it is fair to say, was never going to fly.
"In the document, Ms Giuffre, also referred to by her unmarried name Roberts, agreed to "release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge" Epstein and "any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant".
The settlement's wording says she discharges "potential defendants" from any US legal action, including damages claims dating "from the beginning of the world"."
Whatever the merits of this particular case, I have a distinct dislike of the US system of both plea bargaining and of 'deals'. I don't know if it exists in British law but it just seems wrong to me.
Remember that this is a civil action - in UK law the parties can always make a "deal" and agree to finish the case with an arrangement 'certified' (correct word?) by the Court.
In her previous activities afaik Giuffre has always been after compensation not convictions.
In UK Criminal Law the deals AIUI are normally a little subliminal and revolve around what you are charged with eg "plead guilty to a lesser offence", or the police offering a caution if they are not confident of a conviction.
I have to say that if that agreement was before a Scottish or English court this case would be over. Indeed, it should never have started.
It was a shakedown.
How it differs from blackmail I don’t know
He has suffered real damage to his reputation and “career” (regardless of whether he did what he is accused of everyone believes that he did something) but she presumably doesn’t have assets worth going after and mere money wouldn’t compensate for the damage
I see the anti-woke mob have got their pitchforks out and are absolutely on fire this afternoon.
Being a simple sort of northern bloke, to me something is funny if it's funny, regardless of the target. Though being really offensive is rarely funny, and takes a rare talent to pull off.
Two ads 25 years apart. Both tongue in cheek but only one would get through the ASA today. Both harmless but mores change.
Comments
A "deal" is generally the best outcome of a civil claim, as it saves the cost of days and days in court. Something else again is what Epstein tried to do here which is buy out future claims against third parties as part of the settlement. I doubt this will work, because 1. there's the rule of privity of contract which says that you can't enforce a contract you were not a party to even if it says it is for your benefit 2. it is really badly, because too widely, worded - read literally anyone in the world who had ever wronged ms giuffre could rely on it 3 it was a florida suit so presumably only covers people who allegedly abused her in Florida. ~Standing up and saying Hey I am entitled to rely on this because Florida was one of the places I definitely didn't rape her, no siree, even though she says I raped her in NY and London, is a bit incoherent.
Was there anything else that could have gone wrong?
Of course, in some cases (like NATO), it turned out he didn't actually want the Germans to spend more on their military, but to send money to the US. Which, it is fair to say, was never going to fly.
How it differs from blackmail I don’t know
He has suffered real damage to his reputation and “career” (regardless of whether he did what he is accused of everyone believes that he did something) but she presumably doesn’t have assets worth going after and mere money wouldn’t compensate for the damage
Apple is still worth more.
NY Times business
New thread