Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Thank you Doctor.
The point is well made though. We have had tens of thousands of deaths per year from "flu and pneumonia".
Asian tourists aside I don't remember people not getting the bus or anyone wearing masks previously.
Maybe if they had done, fewer people would have died?
There's more to life than medicine. People getting socm then getting better (or not) is part of life and builds up your immune system.
See, this is a perfectly plausible argument, and you may even be right. My problem is that you simply cannot know that you are right, and your over-conviction on this point is seriously starting to grate.
Except that nos 2 and 3 of the most read stories, are Covid
Not clear what point you are trying to make, or to whom. Yes, the news from ZA is encouraging but also But, there's caveats. We all understand both points.
Leicester - Spurs tonight and Utd v Brighton on Saturday cancelled
I would not bet on the premier league not being cancelled to the new year
It'll be interesting to see the crowd sizes in tonight's other games. A decent barometer of how people are feeling about being in crowds, albeit outdoors.
WTF does it matter if they have an 'X' in their passport? It is a matter for them. It will not make the slightest difference to me or anyone else on here. The world will not stop.
It does matter because it changes the purpose of that field on a passport/
Just as a matter of interest, if I am post-op trans, do I get to put my new sex on the passport?
I think you do as you'd have a gender recognition certificate.
“Sex stereotypes are bad. Also a person's inner sense of gender, based on sex stereotypes, is more real and important than their biological sex'
More or less sums up where I am. Feeling a different gender doesn't even make any sense if you actually follow through on the liberation of people from traditional roles. Wear what you like, change your name to what you like.
I don't care what people want to wear. I don't care what they call themselves. I don't care who they have sex with provided it is consensual and above age. I do care that women and other vulnerable people are safe. I think that their safety and confidence is more important than the desire of those who claim to wish to call themselves women.
I do also rather care that rather more children than one would expect are going down the trans route. Two children - one boy and one girl - from my oldest daughter's old primary school class are now identifying as the opposite gender at the age of 11. I know of a third at another local school. This feels wildly out of kilter with how many one would expect and does rather suggest (to me) that 'trans' has become something of an easy answer to the normal pre-teen condition of not-quite-feeling-comfortable-in-your-own-body. Perhaps.
It is not impossible that there are other reasons for this. The precipitous falls in testosterone levels in young men may be triggered by plastics or other chemicals that are in the environment. If that is right more complicated mixtures of sexual characteristics just might be at the outer edge of that. Its a hypothesis, nothing more, but I am concerned about the chemical and radio wave soup that we live in may be causing harm.
The other possibility is that porn is rewiring people's heads at a very early age. When I was 11, "porn" was the occasional ripped up copy of Hustler you might find in the hedge. Now today's pre-teens have access to every imaginable genre of hardcore pornography. I'm not an expert, but to suggest that this isn't re-wiring kids heads at a very early age seems unlikely to me.
You can be sure that it will lead all the UK media headlines for many weeks to come
My point is that they are in the middle of the epicentre of a new incredibly transmissable Covid variant, the whole world is watching them and yet they are able to carry on with their lives as if nothing is happening. To me that shows the very limited impact Omicron has.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
Leicester - Spurs tonight and Utd v Brighton on Saturday cancelled
I would not bet on the premier league not being cancelled to the new year
It'll be interesting to see the crowd sizes in tonight's other games. A decent barometer of how people are feeling about being in crowds, albeit outdoors.
I think the "its safe, its outside" mantra is still dominant. Hence why you rarely see anybody wear a mask at these sporting events .
Pretty clear Omicron is super infectious, so although far less risky than being in a pub with a 100 people, I don't think the above is true (note Dr Foxy goes all FFP3'ed up to the Leicester games).
You do know there are three Christmases before the next GE
And a week is a long time in politics, indeed it was only a few weeks ago the conservatives were leading in the polls then came Paterson
Then parties, HS2 cock up, wallpapergate redivivus, peppa pig speech, FO whistleblower on Kabul and some other stuff I've temporarily forgotten. So your point is not clear.
My point is Paterson was the catalyst for what followed
Paterson himself was an irrelevance. It was Boris trying to shore up the Paterson shit-show. Simply the worst political decision I have ever known.
All the worse for not actually having been a forced decision. I mean. There literally was no decision to be made. Not as though there were several bad options and he happened to choose the worst available. Very much a do I repeatedly slam my head into this wall or not?
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
I certainly wouldn't advocate banning just for being frustrating. Hell, I'd be gone in 60 seconds if that was the case.
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
We take 2m of you country bumpkin visitors into the worlds best city every day without making anything of it. A family of four from London turn up at the coast and the locals feel the need to start dressing as the grim reaper in response.
WTF does it matter if they have an 'X' in their passport? It is a matter for them. It will not make the slightest difference to me or anyone else on here. The world will not stop.
It does matter because it changes the purpose of that field on a passport/
Just as a matter of interest, if I am post-op trans, do I get to put my new sex on the passport?
I think you do as you'd have a gender recognition certificate.
“Sex stereotypes are bad. Also a person's inner sense of gender, based on sex stereotypes, is more real and important than their biological sex'
More or less sums up where I am. Feeling a different gender doesn't even make any sense if you actually follow through on the liberation of people from traditional roles. Wear what you like, change your name to what you like.
I don't care what people want to wear. I don't care what they call themselves. I don't care who they have sex with provided it is consensual and above age. I do care that women and other vulnerable people are safe. I think that their safety and confidence is more important than the desire of those who claim to wish to call themselves women.
I do also rather care that rather more children than one would expect are going down the trans route. Two children - one boy and one girl - from my oldest daughter's old primary school class are now identifying as the opposite gender at the age of 11. I know of a third at another local school. This feels wildly out of kilter with how many one would expect and does rather suggest (to me) that 'trans' has become something of an easy answer to the normal pre-teen condition of not-quite-feeling-comfortable-in-your-own-body. Perhaps.
It is not impossible that there are other reasons for this. The precipitous falls in testosterone levels in young men may be triggered by plastics or other chemicals that are in the environment. If that is right more complicated mixtures of sexual characteristics just might be at the outer edge of that. Its a hypothesis, nothing more, but I am concerned about the chemical and radio wave soup that we live in may be causing harm.
The most dramatic increases are in girls (by birth sex) identifying as boys, as I understand it.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Leicester - Spurs tonight and Utd v Brighton on Saturday cancelled
I would not bet on the premier league not being cancelled to the new year
Traitors. All PL games should continue. More so if the players are sick with Covid. Lets infect as many people as we can at these events. If some of them die, even better.
EDIT. Sarcasm. As you would be able to see if my HTML tags were visible
Leicester - Spurs tonight and Utd v Brighton on Saturday cancelled
I would not bet on the premier league not being cancelled to the new year
Wouldn’t they switch like Germany to no fans first before cancel option? The government would surely resist both, having pushed through measures to enable fans at games just days ago, they would look not just behind Ant and Dec but behind the Brentford manager. Who? Exactly! 😆
Funnily enough every Christmas hundreds of thousands of Londoners leave the capital because, surprise surprise, they have family outside London they are visiting. Because the distinction between "Londoner" and "true salt of the earth patriot" is perhaps a little artificial.
Like the supposed battles between cyclists and motorists, when most cyclists also have cars and most motorists also ride bikes.
It's not Londoners that are likely to move - it's the people with second homes. There's a whole class of people that lie and cheat. People that actually live in London - one home, and it's here, are not the same.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
We take 2m of you country bumpkin visitors into the worlds best city every day without making anything of it. A family of four from London turn up at the coast and the locals feel the need to start dressing as the grim reaper in response.
Who are really the worst.....
But most country bumpkins won't have been travelling into London for the week, because of WFH rules.
It's not Londoners that are likely to move - it's the people with second homes. There's a whole class of people that lie and cheat. People that actually live in London - one home, and it's here, are not the same.
It's overwhelmingly people with families. It's what we do at Christmas: visit relatives. Or in my case (Omicron-permitting) have relatives from outside London come and visit me.
I'm not sure it's all that encouraging. On the positive side, cases, and admissions, don't seem to be rising as fast as they were, but admissions are already up to 50% of the delta peak, with presumably further to go.
Hospitals are not under any pressure in Guateng (as the premier of Guateng confirmed today), it is completely different to Delta, these charts look a bit scary but the majority of Covid admissions are incidental i.e.they are not being treated for Covid. In a population of 15 million there are only 90 people on ventialtion and out of those some will not be for Covid. Compare and contrast to the number for the previous Delta wave when they run out of beds and oxygen.
Hmm, I think you are being complacent there. The peak in admissions in the Guateng delta wave was around 60 to 80 days after the start of the wave. They are only around 25 days into the omicron wave so far.
We just can't be definitive in our conclusions yet.
See this linear-scale version of the same chart, which is perhaps clearer:
Going forward if you have a cold, or the flu I hope people will be courteous enough to stay at home if they can and not spread it around. I will certainly do that
It's not Londoners that are likely to move - it's the people with second homes. There's a whole class of people that lie and cheat. People that actually live in London - one home, and it's here, are not the same.
First lockdown, that definitely happened, all the poshos upped and left to the country second homes.
But now its Christmas, I imagine a lot of people go back to see family and friends anyway, and the anecdotal reports are they are going early, because WFH orders already in place. So they get boostered and then nip off back to where their family is based.
Leicester - Spurs tonight and Utd v Brighton on Saturday cancelled
I would not bet on the premier league not being cancelled to the new year
It'll be interesting to see the crowd sizes in tonight's other games. A decent barometer of how people are feeling about being in crowds, albeit outdoors.
I think the "its safe, its outside" mantra is still dominant. Hence why you rarely see anybody wear a mask at these sporting events .
Pretty clear Omicron is super infectious, so although far less risky than being in a pub with a 100 people, I don't think the above is true (note Dr Foxy goes all FFP3'ed up to the Leicester games).
Taking a leaf from Foxy's book, I wore an FFP3 at the Scotland Denmark match last month. It felt like overkill at the time, until I went to the toilet at half time and then I was a little grateful for it. Not sure if Hampden is representative of English premier league grounds, but it's a hundred people at a time trying to squeeze into a room the size of a bus.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
Which is great but there was no great opprobrium heaped upon people who sat at their desks or on the bus or tube and sniffled away. Just a shrug of the shoulders. Plenty of people would ignore "man flu" and struggle on.
With the vaccines it is highly likely that Covid is similar to the flu. Certainly Delta was and we await cautiously to hear about Omicron. One death I understand so far which is bound to increase dramatically given the cases but as yet we don't know.
It's not Londoners that are likely to move - it's the people with second homes. There's a whole class of people that lie and cheat. People that actually live in London - one home, and it's here, are not the same.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Thank you Doctor.
The point is well made though. We have had tens of thousands of deaths per year from "flu and pneumonia".
Asian tourists aside I don't remember people not getting the bus or anyone wearing masks previously.
Maybe if they had done, fewer people would have died?
Maybe so. But no one was crying out for fewer deaths so we must assume that was a price people were willing to pay.
Or that we had imperfect knowledge.
I hate masks as much as anyone, but I think we do have to consider the possibility that the Asians were onto something with the idea that basic consideration for others implies you should wear one if you think you might be infectious, eg on public transport, and that now that we know it's potentially a life saving intervention, we should follow suit.
You could catch the flu from someone who had it? This was not commonly known?
We knew it hence the flu jab and no one decided you wear a mask.
No; I meant it wasn't generally known that you could substantially reduce the risk of transmitting it by wearing a mask.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
Which is great but there was no great opprobrium heaped upon people who sat at their desks or on the bus or tube and sniffled away. Just a shrug of the shoulders. Plenty of people would ignore "man flu" and struggle on.
With the vaccines it is highly likely that Covid is similar to the flu. Certainly Delta was and we await cautiously to hear about Omicron. One death I understand so far which is bound to increase dramatically given the cases but as yet we don't know.
I think that was the wrong approach and I am glad going forward more will WFH in such situations
1,691 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of COVID-19 have been reported across the UK. Confirmed Omicron cases in the UK now total 11,708.
We plan to travel up to Yorkshire Saturday night/Sunday morning.
If you hear they plan to blow the bridges and impose road block please please let me know. By this time next week I will have seen horses, ridden horses, got my Land Rover out the garage lock up, and taken my AWESOME HAIRSTYLE up on moor to be blow around in wind.
I'm not sure it's all that encouraging. On the positive side, cases, and admissions, don't seem to be rising as fast as they were, but admissions are already up to 50% of the delta peak, with presumably further to go.
Hospitals are not under any pressure in Guateng (as the premier of Guateng confirmed today), it is completely different to Delta, these charts look a bit scary but the majority of Covid admissions are incidental i.e.they are not being treated for Covid. In a population of 15 million there are only 90 people on ventialtion and out of those some will not be for Covid. Compare and contrast to the number for the previous Delta wave when they run out of beds and oxygen.
Hmm, I think you are being complacent there. The peak in admissions in the Guateng delta wave was around 60 to 80 days after the start of the wave. They are only around 25 days into the omicron wave so far.
We just can't be definitive in our conclusions yet.
See this linear-scale version of the same chart, which is perhaps clearer:
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
There is a good rational point to be made about staying at home when unwell to protect others from catching infectious diseases, but I'd prefer we avoid moralising infection as a rule. It happened in the 1980s with "good AIDS" and "bad AIDS" and created a lot of stigma. And further back it's exactly what led to leper colonies: the ultimate example of self-isolation.
WTF does it matter if they have an 'X' in their passport? It is a matter for them. It will not make the slightest difference to me or anyone else on here. The world will not stop.
It does matter because it changes the purpose of that field on a passport/
Just as a matter of interest, if I am post-op trans, do I get to put my new sex on the passport?
I think you do as you'd have a gender recognition certificate.
“Sex stereotypes are bad. Also a person's inner sense of gender, based on sex stereotypes, is more real and important than their biological sex'
More or less sums up where I am. Feeling a different gender doesn't even make any sense if you actually follow through on the liberation of people from traditional roles. Wear what you like, change your name to what you like.
I don't care what people want to wear. I don't care what they call themselves. I don't care who they have sex with provided it is consensual and above age. I do care that women and other vulnerable people are safe. I think that their safety and confidence is more important than the desire of those who claim to wish to call themselves women.
I do also rather care that rather more children than one would expect are going down the trans route. Two children - one boy and one girl - from my oldest daughter's old primary school class are now identifying as the opposite gender at the age of 11. I know of a third at another local school. This feels wildly out of kilter with how many one would expect and does rather suggest (to me) that 'trans' has become something of an easy answer to the normal pre-teen condition of not-quite-feeling-comfortable-in-your-own-body. Perhaps.
Asking a non-approved question, how much of it do you think is teenage or school fashion?
In all honesty, sceptical though I naturally am, example 3 above was going down this route from when I first met him before school. He's a troubled child in many ways but has always, always dressed as a girl.
My interpretation of the other 2 is that example number 1 is probably gay, flamboyant but not trans - just has a non-traditional approach to masculinity. I think he will have a significantly easier time of his teenage years than he would have done 30 years ago. My guess is that he'd flirting with trans as an ideology because it's fashionable. But, still, I suppose an unwise teenage dalliance with identifying as the other gender is probably less damaging than having your entire teenage years being bullied for being gay. So I'm certainly not saying the old days were better here. Example #2 is the saddest: she is a (fairly mentally immature) 11 year old whose body has matured very early. She is a girl currently not at home with the body she now has, as presumably has been the case for young girls for centuries. She was a nice kid when I knew her, but not that bright and worryingly easily influenced - always with a slightly desperate look for approval.
I know none of these children well and am rather uncomfortable psychoanalysing them on the internet, so please put massive bloke-in-a-pub-told-me caveats before all of this. I do so only to answer the question i.e. one was always going trans but the other two probably following fashion.
Robert Peston sits maskless speaking for 15 minutes to fellow hacks before the presser. He only put it on when the press conference began, when he was meant to be filmed
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
It's an interesting development - I certainly won't go into work again or meet friends with a cold. Just seems polite.
I appreciate Philip for speaking for a different side of the argument, but if the NHS really will collapse I'm happy with another lockdown and I'll make a few, minor adjustments (masks, lat flows)to slow that down.
I'm just frustrated that the we are in this weird half-way house at the mo. If it's gonna be horrendously bad, as Whitty clearly thinks, have the bravery to make the call.
Also very angry at the un-vaccinated, who will prolong or hasten lockdown.
The key finding is that Omicron multiplies 70x faster in the bronchial tract than Delta (which in turn was faster than Original), but that it is more than an order of magnitude less virulent in the lungs. (I.e. the virus replicates at less than one-tenth of the rate of Delta or Original in the lungs.)
This - presumably - is why we're not seeing so many patients on oxygen. Simply, peoples' lungs are not being attacked to the same extent as with earlier variants. It explains why we're Omicron is spreading rapidly, but is highly suggestive that this variant is not going to be as severe as earlier ones.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
I certainly wouldn't advocate banning just for being frustrating. Hell, I'd be gone in 60 seconds if that was the case.
If we're referencing Cage films then I can only opine that, re being banned, while It Could Happen to You, you are in many ways now The Rock of PB.com - some might say a National Treasure - and it would require some Adaptation to be Trapped in Paradise (PB.com) without you due to some unfortunate Face/Off between Philip and yourself.
The key finding is that Omicron multiplies 70x faster in the bronchial tract than Delta (which in turn was faster than Original), but that it is more than an order of magnitude less virulent in the lungs. (I.e. the virus replicates at less than one-tenth of the rate of Delta or Original in the lungs.)
This - presumably - is why we're not seeing so many patients on oxygen. Simply, peoples' lungs are not being attacked to the same extent as with earlier variants. It explains why we're Omicron is spreading rapidly, but is highly suggestive that this variant is not going to be as severe as earlier ones.
I don't believe the 10x less is versus Delta. I believe its versus Original. I believe in comparison to Delta, its the same.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
It's an interesting development - I certainly won't go into work again or meet friends with a cold. Just seems polite.
I appreciate Philip for speaking for a different side of the argument, but if the NHS really will collapse I'm happy with another lockdown and I'll make a few, minor adjustments (masks, lat flows)to slow that down.
I'm just frustrated that the we are in this weird half-way house at the mo. If it's gonna be horrendously bad, as Whitty clearly thinks, have the bravery to make the call.
Also very angry at the un-vaccinated, who will prolong or hasten lockdown.
Philip's basic POV is fine but I am concerned that he's dipping into anti-COVID talk about masks and spreading the virus around.
I am not going to go onto a bus and spread it around, I do not like the concept of "ensure everyone gets it". If you can avoid getting it, avoid it. And go and get jabbed
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
There is a good rational point to be made about staying at home when unwell to protect others from catching infectious diseases, but I'd prefer we avoid moralising infection as a rule. It happened in the 1980s with "good AIDS" and "bad AIDS" and created a lot of stigma. And further back it's exactly what led to leper colonies: the ultimate example of self-isolation.
I'd also rather catch 2 or 3 mild colds a year from my fellow humans than go a couple of years with nothing then be laid low by something that catches out my unpractised immune system. Not so much flu, because there are annual vaccines available. And probably not COVID, for the same reason (vaccines).
I do wonder whether we now have the technology - mRNA - to develop and distribute vaccines against the endemic coronaviruses that cause colds. I don't see why not, though there may not be the demand of course.
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
We take 2m of you country bumpkin visitors into the worlds best city every day without making anything of it. A family of four from London turn up at the coast and the locals feel the need to start dressing as the grim reaper in response.
Who are really the worst.....
But most country bumpkins won't have been travelling into London for the week, because of WFH rules.
The small reduction in tfl usage stats for Monday this week (last day with publicly available data) compared to recent Mondays is not even statistically significant. I think the vast majority of people who can work from home and wanted to, already were, which is why it was an irrelevant part of plan B.
Boris Johnson joined No 10 staff for a party in Downing Street during the first lockdown in May last year, sources have alleged, raising questions about whether there was a culture of flouting the rules over a number of months.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
The key finding is that Omicron multiplies 70x faster in the bronchial tract than Delta (which in turn was faster than Original), but that it is more than an order of magnitude less virulent in the lungs. (I.e. the virus replicates at less than one-tenth of the rate of Delta or Original in the lungs.)
This - presumably - is why we're not seeing so many patients on oxygen. Simply, peoples' lungs are not being attacked to the same extent as with earlier variants. It explains why we're Omicron is spreading rapidly, but is highly suggestive that this variant is not going to be as severe as earlier ones.
I don't believe the 10x less is versus Delta. I believe its versus Original. I believe in comparison to Delta, its the same.
It's 10x less than wild type, and also less than Delta but not 10x (Delta came out slightly less infectious in the lungs than WT).
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
We take 2m of you country bumpkin visitors into the worlds best city every day without making anything of it. A family of four from London turn up at the coast and the locals feel the need to start dressing as the grim reaper in response.
Who are really the worst.....
But most country bumpkins won't have been travelling into London for the week, because of WFH rules.
The small reduction in tfl usage stats for Monday this week (last day with publicly available data) compared to recent Mondays is not even statistically significant. I think the vast majority of people who can work from home and wanted to, already were, which is why it was an irrelevant part of plan B.
Fine, but that still means there is much reduced commuter traffic into London. It is probably why we haven't seen the same level of rapid spread outside of London (yet).
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
I certainly wouldn't advocate banning just for being frustrating. Hell, I'd be gone in 60 seconds if that was the case.
If we're referencing Cage films then I can only opine that, re being banned, while It Could Happen to You, you are in many ways now The Rock of PB.com - some might say a National Treasure - and it would require some Adaptation to be Trapped in Paradise (PB.com) without you due to some unfortunate Face/Off between Philip and yourself.
I think we've found Nicholas Cage's biggest fan! I've seen Face/Off out of the ones you mentioned. I'll let others tell me whether I've missed out or dodged bullets with the others.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
Boris Johnson joined No 10 staff for a party in Downing Street during the first lockdown in May last year, sources have alleged, raising questions about whether there was a culture of flouting the rules over a number of months.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
This is what I posted last week, that I suspected Boris has been "encouraging" the staff to have a drink....working hard chaps and chapesses, we all deserve a drink etc....and this has become a regular thing with the pubs closed etc.
The key finding is that Omicron multiplies 70x faster in the bronchial tract than Delta (which in turn was faster than Original), but that it is more than an order of magnitude less virulent in the lungs. (I.e. the virus replicates at less than one-tenth of the rate of Delta or Original in the lungs.)
This - presumably - is why we're not seeing so many patients on oxygen. Simply, peoples' lungs are not being attacked to the same extent as with earlier variants. It explains why we're Omicron is spreading rapidly, but is highly suggestive that this variant is not going to be as severe as earlier ones.
I don't believe the 10x less is versus Delta. I believe its versus Original. I believe in comparison to Delta, its the same.
Look at the chart. I may be wrong about the 10x compared to Delta - but it's at least 5x.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Thank you Doctor.
The point is well made though. We have had tens of thousands of deaths per year from "flu and pneumonia".
Asian tourists aside I don't remember people not getting the bus or anyone wearing masks previously.
Maybe if they had done, fewer people would have died?
There's more to life than medicine. People getting socm then getting better (or not) is part of life and builds up your immune system.
See, this is a perfectly plausible argument, and you may even be right. My problem is that you simply cannot know that you are right, and your over-conviction on this point is seriously starting to grate.
Also, calling masks "medicine" is just silly.
I'm not calling masks medicine, that's confusing where you got that from.
And its amusing how someone giving a voice to "live and let live, let the virus spread" is "grating" when we've had nearly two bloody years of "supress the virus" talk which was spoken about with over-conviction.
Why wasn't that irritating, but standing up to the received wisdom is?
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
I certainly wouldn't advocate banning just for being frustrating. Hell, I'd be gone in 60 seconds if that was the case.
If we're referencing Cage films then I can only opine that, re being banned, while It Could Happen to You, you are in many ways now The Rock of PB.com - some might say a National Treasure - and it would require some Adaptation to be Trapped in Paradise (PB.com) without you due to some unfortunate Face/Off between Philip and yourself.
I think we've found Nicholas Cage's biggest fan! I've seen Face/Off out of the ones you mentioned. I'll let others tell me whether I've missed out or dodged bullets with the others.
I liked Adaptation. His younger brother steals screen writers limelight with completely unworthy torture p*rn scripts 🙂
Boris Johnson joined No 10 staff for a party in Downing Street during the first lockdown in May last year, sources have alleged, raising questions about whether there was a culture of flouting the rules over a number of months.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
This is what I posted last week, that I suspected Boris has been "encouraging" the staff to have a drink....working hard chaps and chapesses, we all deserve a drink etc....and this has become a regular thing with the pubs closed etc.
It makes Boris Johnson's defence a fortnight later of the trip to Barnard Castle by Dom Cummings even more disgusting.
Boris Johnson joined No 10 staff for a party in Downing Street during the first lockdown in May last year, sources have alleged, raising questions about whether there was a culture of flouting the rules over a number of months.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
'Asked about Johnson’s comment about “beating back” the virus, and his presence at the alleged party at which No 10 staff were drinking and socialising, his official spokesperson said: “In the summer months Downing Street staff regularly use the garden for some meetings. On 15 May 2020 the prime minister held a series of meetings throughout the afternoon, including briefly with the then health and care secretary and his team in the garden following a press conference.
“The prime minister went to his residence shortly after 7pm. A small number of staff required to be in work remained in the Downing Street garden for part of the afternoon and evening.”'
You do know there are three Christmases before the next GE
And a week is a long time in politics, indeed it was only a few weeks ago the conservatives were leading in the polls then came Paterson
Remember we have an absolute mare of an economic picture for the next couple of years to contend with too. The current difficulties have been an unexpected bonus...on steroids if there really are photos of Johnson partying like it's 1999.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
Pre-covid did you ever have the flu and go on public transport.
I stayed at home mostly because I was ill but I'd still not go into work and make everyone else get it
It's an interesting development - I certainly won't go into work again or meet friends with a cold. Just seems polite.
I appreciate Philip for speaking for a different side of the argument, but if the NHS really will collapse I'm happy with another lockdown and I'll make a few, minor adjustments (masks, lat flows)to slow that down.
I'm just frustrated that the we are in this weird half-way house at the mo. If it's gonna be horrendously bad, as Whitty clearly thinks, have the bravery to make the call.
Also very angry at the un-vaccinated, who will prolong or hasten lockdown.
I had a meeting with teaching staff at my sons school. The head of year, who I really like, said that she isn't wearing a mask, has a bad cough but it isn't covid; and I was fine with that, I took my mask off as well because it would otherwise hamper the communication, we were discussing something really important.
I don't want teachers or anyone else 'WFHing' because they have a cough and don't want to spread it around because COVID. People should live with the flu as we have done forever. The immune system gets stronger by exposure to viruses. The only justification to stop the spread of COVID is because of the pressure on hospitals. That is it. And there are limits to what we should do in pursuit of that. Childrens education is more important. We've got to keep building stuff. We've got to preserve our mental health. Social work needs to continue. And so on. Or else we just have no future.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
In the same way that measures to prevent spread have a diffuse impact on reducing spread, they equally have a diffuse impact on depressing the economy.
Full disclosure, no problem with you isolating - if the government is right however, by xmas day isolation will be absolutely pointless as everyone is already exposed.
Once again, deaths down, mechanical ventilation down, hospitals flat, hospital admissions barely changed vs last week.
New record on cases, much bigger new record on number of tests done - frankly a very encouraging day's data.
I wouldn't yet call it encouraging with that many cases. If in a week hospitalisations have only nudged up a little then it will be fairly clear the pattern. The numbers of hospitalisations in the next week is the key figure to watch in my view.
I'm not sure it's all that encouraging. On the positive side, cases, and admissions, don't seem to be rising as fast as they were, but admissions are already up to 50% of the delta peak, with presumably further to go.
Hospitals are not under any pressure in Guateng (as the premier of Guateng confirmed today), it is completely different to Delta, these charts look a bit scary but the majority of Covid admissions are incidental i.e.they are not being treated for Covid. In a population of 15 million there are only 90 people on ventialtion and out of those some will not be for Covid. Compare and contrast to the number for the previous Delta wave when they run out of beds and oxygen.
Hmm, I think you are being complacent there. The peak in admissions in the Guateng delta wave was around 60 to 80 days after the start of the wave. They are only around 25 days into the omicron wave so far.
We just can't be definitive in our conclusions yet.
See this linear-scale version of the same chart, which is perhaps clearer:
While that's true, the more important question is what is the gap between peak in cases and peak in hospitalizations, surely? If cases have peaked, then one would expect hospitalizations to follow 7 to 14 days later. (Unless it is particularly quick or particularly slow to reach full severity.)
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Give it a fucking rest. There will be people out there who've done the right thing, got their booster say in the last three days but it's not yet at full effect. Stop telling people to infect each other you absolute fucking tart.
I do not share your language but agree with the sentiment
I got my booster on Tuesday. The difference between being exposed today and being exposed in a week could be profound. Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
I do not agree on banning no matter how frustrating another view may be but again I absolutely accept the nuance of your comments
I certainly wouldn't advocate banning just for being frustrating. Hell, I'd be gone in 60 seconds if that was the case.
If we're referencing Cage films then I can only opine that, re being banned, while It Could Happen to You, you are in many ways now The Rock of PB.com - some might say a National Treasure - and it would require some Adaptation to be Trapped in Paradise (PB.com) without you due to some unfortunate Face/Off between Philip and yourself.
I think we've found Nicholas Cage's biggest fan! I've seen Face/Off out of the ones you mentioned. I'll let others tell me whether I've missed out or dodged bullets with the others.
I've seen Gone in 60 seconds (I think, some distant memory), The Rock and National Treasure. And Captain Correlli's Mandolin, god help me. The middle two are fun, at least. I can't remember the first other than it being something about stealing cars. I'd like to forget the last.
The others, I admit, were courtesy of Google.*
Generally, I'd suggest it's better not to see a Cage film and perhaps fear yourself a fool than to pay to see one and remove all doubt
*I'm marking a late submitted dissertation; I'm extremely bored
You do know there are three Christmases before the next GE
And a week is a long time in politics, indeed it was only a few weeks ago the conservatives were leading in the polls then came Paterson
Remember we have an absolute mare of an economic picture for the next couple of years to contend with too. The current difficulties have been an unexpected bonus...on steroids if there really are photos of Johnson partying like it's 1999.
I have expressed concern before about the economic picture into next spring and beyond
And of course if Boris goes the political scene will change as well
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
If you're telling people who want to go out and about that they have to stay at home because they either have or might get a virus, then that is destroying livelihoods.
People should be free to go out, even if they're positive for the virus, and live lives and frequent premises. To say otherwise is what is destroying businesses. If you choose not to, that's fine, I respect free choice. But compelling others not to (which further compels them to not go out even if not positive because they fear ending in isolation) is very wrong.
Interesting that testing is ramping up at more or less the same rate as cases - for example, yesterday's positivity rate was 4.8% - still (just) within WHO guidelines. To keep below 5% we'll need to have done 1.77 million tests to give today's result - up from 1.64 million conducted most recently reported.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
In the same way that measures to prevent spread have a diffuse impact on reducing spread, they equally have a diffuse impact on depressing the economy.
Full disclosure, no problem with you isolating - if the government is right however, by xmas day isolation will be absolutely pointless as everyone is already exposed.
If I WFH for a cold how is that any more or less likely to destroy the likelihoods of Miss Cyclefree? What if by not isolating I give it to her and somebody she gives it to, dies?
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
If you're telling people who want to go out and about that they have to stay at home because they either have or might get a virus, then that is destroying livelihoods.
People should be free to go out, even if they're positive for the virus, and live lives and frequent premises. To say otherwise is what is destroying businesses. If you choose not to, that's fine, I respect free choice. But compelling others not to (which further compels them to not go out even if not positive because they fear ending in isolation) is very wrong.
If you're ill and you go out into the world spreading it around then you're just selfish. End of story.
Boris Johnson joined No 10 staff for a party in Downing Street during the first lockdown in May last year, sources have alleged, raising questions about whether there was a culture of flouting the rules over a number of months.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
This is what I posted last week, that I suspected Boris has been "encouraging" the staff to have a drink....working hard chaps and chapesses, we all deserve a drink etc....and this has become a regular thing with the pubs closed etc.
“will the last one out please switch off the disco lights”
It's not Londoners that are likely to move - it's the people with second homes. There's a whole class of people that lie and cheat. People that actually live in London - one home, and it's here, are not the same.
What exactly is the lying and cheating about.
Well tax obviously. I just bought a flat from a Jewish couple - they were/are clearly rotten to the core (which is very much not my experience of Jewish people). The extensive array of companies (many bust) that they were involved in is really rather interesting, and once I get it all together they're going to jail. They pissed off the wrong person.
Philip is going off the deep end with this anti COVID stuff
I'm not anti-Covid.
I'm anti-restrictions. I'm quite fine to live with Covid, since we have vaccines rolled out. I got my third jab this morning.
I'm positive now and self-isolating. I am not going to go on the bus and give it to people.
And do you think that magically means the people on the bus are never going to get it from anyone else? That's it, Covid is over because you stayed at home?
Its my view you shouldn't have to self-isolate. The virus is going to spread either way. Trying to contain its spread is doing more harm than it spreading.
If all you've got is like the common cold, then you should treat it no differently to how you'd have acted in the past with the common cold.
Thank you Doctor.
The point is well made though. We have had tens of thousands of deaths per year from "flu and pneumonia".
Asian tourists aside I don't remember people not getting the bus or anyone wearing masks previously.
Maybe if they had done, fewer people would have died?
Maybe so. But no one was crying out for fewer deaths so we must assume that was a price people were willing to pay.
Or that we had imperfect knowledge.
I hate masks as much as anyone, but I think we do have to consider the possibility that the Asians were onto something with the idea that basic consideration for others implies you should wear one if you think you might be infectious, eg on public transport, and that now that we know it's potentially a life saving intervention, we should follow suit.
You could catch the flu from someone who had it? This was not commonly known?
We knew it hence the flu jab and no one decided you wear a mask.
No; I meant it wasn't generally known that you could substantially reduce the risk of transmitting it by wearing a mask.
I think we are really stretching the definition of "party"....pizza and beer for 20 people at the end of a busy day...I think most people who have worked for a decent employer have had that, and certainly not considered it a party in anyway. In fact, the opposite, those that don't do that, seen as heartless bosses.
But as I said down thread, I am convinced these kind of things have snowballed into drinking sessions and clearly everybody knew about them and at very least turned a blind eye.
@Philip_Thompson If I went on public transport I could give it to somebody who ended up dying, if I can avoid doing that I will. I don't like your attitude.
It takes two to tango. I don't like your attitude either, there is no avoiding getting the virus and the sooner we stop trashing people's livelihoods in order to prevent the spread of an entirely natural [unless you think it came from a lab] virus is a price not worth paying.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
How does me isolating at home destroy the livelihoods of Miss Cyclefree?
If you're telling people who want to go out and about that they have to stay at home because they either have or might get a virus, then that is destroying livelihoods.
People should be free to go out, even if they're positive for the virus, and live lives and frequent premises. To say otherwise is what is destroying businesses. If you choose not to, that's fine, I respect free choice. But compelling others not to (which further compels them to not go out even if not positive because they fear ending in isolation) is very wrong.
You're forgetting that going out with a virus and giving it to other folk means that the other folk have to stop taking part in the economy, sometimes terminally (granny and flu for instance).
Also, it's shitty thing to do knowingly when you don't have to go out. Going on the pish isn't compulsory.
I'm not sure it's all that encouraging. On the positive side, cases, and admissions, don't seem to be rising as fast as they were, but admissions are already up to 50% of the delta peak, with presumably further to go.
Hospitals are not under any pressure in Guateng (as the premier of Guateng confirmed today), it is completely different to Delta, these charts look a bit scary but the majority of Covid admissions are incidental i.e.they are not being treated for Covid. In a population of 15 million there are only 90 people on ventialtion and out of those some will not be for Covid. Compare and contrast to the number for the previous Delta wave when they run out of beds and oxygen.
Hmm, I think you are being complacent there. The peak in admissions in the Guateng delta wave was around 60 to 80 days after the start of the wave. They are only around 25 days into the omicron wave so far.
We just can't be definitive in our conclusions yet.
See this linear-scale version of the same chart, which is perhaps clearer:
While that's true, the more important question is what is the gap between peak in cases and peak in hospitalizations, surely? If cases have peaked, then one would expect hospitalizations to follow 7 to 14 days later. (Unless it is particularly quick or particularly slow to reach full severity.)
Yep. Some grounds for cautious optimism, I think. With caveats around different populations/vaccination/previous infections (which could cause a differential between the Delta/Omicron comparisions between there and here) and lagged data.
Once again, deaths down, mechanical ventilation down, hospitals flat, hospital admissions barely changed vs last week.
New record on cases, much bigger new record on number of tests done - frankly a very encouraging day's data.
I wouldn't yet call it encouraging with that many cases. If in a week hospitalisations have only nudged up a little then it will be fairly clear the pattern. The numbers of hospitalisations in the next week is the key figure to watch in my view.
The cases is absolutely guaranteed, and will keep going up between now and xmas. By xmas eve people will be in the place they want to spend xmas, will stop doing tests and the number will crater.
It's hospitals and deaths data that is worth watching.
Boris surely is at a pretty low ebb in this. I'm pretty certain that Starmer isn't making any headway. He's doing a little better than his prior paddling-around-in-circles though.
I just do not see Boris in office much longer
At least he is still in the office, as opposed to being next to the pool like some others might be.
Comments
Hundreds of thousands are in exactly the same boat, and millions in a similar boat. Given that PT is advocating behaviour that threatens my life, I have no qualms about either what I said or the way I said it.
In fact, I think he should be banned again. This has spilled over into shouting "fire" in a theatre. How I regret telling Mike Smithson that he shouldn't have banned him. Mike, I apologise.
More seriously I think there is probably some public misconceptions. They are all queuing up for their boosters, which is great, but they never tell people a) how long for it to actually take effect and b) versus omicron it still appears that efficacy against infection is reduced...thus a lot of those getting boostered and then fleeing the capital will be taking it with them.
Also, calling masks "medicine" is just silly.
Not clear what point you are trying to make, or to whom. Yes, the news from ZA is encouraging but also But, there's caveats. We all understand both points.
Pretty clear Omicron is super infectious, so although far less risky than being in a pub with a 100 people, I don't think the above is true (note Dr Foxy goes all FFP3'ed up to the Leicester games).
I mean. There literally was no decision to be made. Not as though there were several bad options and he happened to choose the worst available.
Very much a do I repeatedly slam my head into this wall or not?
Who are really the worst.....
See e.g. this (outdated) report from the Tavistock clinic (main - only? - child GIDS clinic in England)
https://tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/408/gids-service-statistics.pdf
Or this more recent report (same clinic) from the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56539466
EDIT. Sarcasm. As you would be able to see if my HTML tags were visible
Who?
Exactly! 😆
Like the supposed battles between cyclists and motorists, when most cyclists also have cars and most motorists also ride bikes.
That should fund a run for president.
We just can't be definitive in our conclusions yet.
See this linear-scale version of the same chart, which is perhaps clearer:
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1471507639561383948
But now its Christmas, I imagine a lot of people go back to see family and friends anyway, and the anecdotal reports are they are going early, because WFH orders already in place. So they get boostered and then nip off back to where their family is based.
With the vaccines it is highly likely that Covid is similar to the flu. Certainly Delta was and we await cautiously to hear about Omicron. One death I understand so far which is bound to increase dramatically given the cases but as yet we don't know.
If you hear they plan to blow the bridges and impose road block please please let me know.
By this time next week I will have seen horses, ridden horses, got my Land Rover out the garage lock up, and taken my AWESOME HAIRSTYLE up on moor to be blow around in wind.
Very encouraging but let's all isolate and keep safe if we catch it
https://unherd.com/thepost/deep-data-dive-is-omicron-the-end-of-the-pandemic/
My interpretation of the other 2 is that example number 1 is probably gay, flamboyant but not trans - just has a non-traditional approach to masculinity. I think he will have a significantly easier time of his teenage years than he would have done 30 years ago. My guess is that he'd flirting with trans as an ideology because it's fashionable. But, still, I suppose an unwise teenage dalliance with identifying as the other gender is probably less damaging than having your entire teenage years being bullied for being gay. So I'm certainly not saying the old days were better here.
Example #2 is the saddest: she is a (fairly mentally immature) 11 year old whose body has matured very early. She is a girl currently not at home with the body she now has, as presumably has been the case for young girls for centuries. She was a nice kid when I knew her, but not that bright and worryingly easily influenced - always with a slightly desperate look for approval.
I know none of these children well and am rather uncomfortable psychoanalysing them on the internet, so please put massive bloke-in-a-pub-told-me caveats before all of this. I do so only to answer the question i.e. one was always going trans but the other two probably following fashion.
https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1471209740604743687?s=20
Hypocrites the lot of them.
I appreciate Philip for speaking for a different side of the argument, but if the NHS really will collapse I'm happy with another lockdown and I'll make a few, minor adjustments (masks, lat flows)to slow that down.
I'm just frustrated that the we are in this weird half-way house at the mo. If it's gonna be horrendously bad, as Whitty clearly thinks, have the bravery to make the call.
Also very angry at the un-vaccinated, who will prolong or hasten lockdown.
The key finding is that Omicron multiplies 70x faster in the bronchial tract than Delta (which in turn was faster than Original), but that it is more than an order of magnitude less virulent in the lungs. (I.e. the virus replicates at less than one-tenth of the rate of Delta or Original in the lungs.)
This - presumably - is why we're not seeing so many patients on oxygen. Simply, peoples' lungs are not being attacked to the same extent as with earlier variants. It explains why we're Omicron is spreading rapidly, but is highly suggestive that this variant is not going to be as severe as earlier ones.
I am not going to go onto a bus and spread it around, I do not like the concept of "ensure everyone gets it". If you can avoid getting it, avoid it. And go and get jabbed
I do wonder whether we now have the technology - mRNA - to develop and distribute vaccines against the endemic coronaviruses that cause colds. I don't see why not, though there may not be the demand of course.
Must commend my local GP surgery for a hastily arranged, yet highly efficient in&out.
Much, much more efficient than my first two jabs.
Well done NHS, Boris (through gritted teeth) and the ridiculously smart people at Pfizer/BioNTech.
The prime minister spent about 15 minutes with staff at the alleged social gathering on 15 May 2020, telling one aide inside No 10 that they deserved a drink for “beating back” coronavirus, a joint investigation by the Guardian and Independent was told.
Sources claimed about 20 staff drank wine and spirits and ate pizza following a press conference on that day, some in offices inside No 10 and others going into the garden. Some staff stayed drinking until late into the evening, they alleged.
Rules at the time allowed only two people from different households to meet outside, at a distance of 2 metres. Earlier that evening, Matt Hancock, then health secretary, had urged people to “stay at home as much as is possible” and asked them to “please stick with the rules, keep an eye on your family and don’t take risks” during the period of good weather.
The claims follow a string of reports about similar alleged events in Downing Street and elsewhere during the subsequent lockdown last Christmas, and suggests rules might have been broken over a series of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/16/boris-johnson-joined-no-10-party-during-may-2020-lockdown-say-sources
Photos coming this weekend
I've seen Face/Off out of the ones you mentioned. I'll let others tell me whether I've missed out or dodged bullets with the others.
If you think that just because someone has a virus we should be destroying the livelihoods of people like Miss Cyclefree Jr and millions like her, then I don't like your attitude either.
If you want to stay at home voluntarily that should be your choice, but there should be absolutely nothing stopping you from getting on the bus or going to the pub or anything else if that's what you want to do.
And its amusing how someone giving a voice to "live and let live, let the virus spread" is "grating" when we've had nearly two bloody years of "supress the virus" talk which was spoken about with over-conviction.
Why wasn't that irritating, but standing up to the received wisdom is?
New record on cases, much bigger new record on number of tests done - frankly a very encouraging day's data.
[Insert a lot of unparliamentary language here.]
“The prime minister went to his residence shortly after 7pm. A small number of staff required to be in work remained in the Downing Street garden for part of the afternoon and evening.”'
Highest Boosters to date: 745,183 (today)
Nearest estimate: @Cyclefree (723,527)
Next nearest: @Eabhal (825,000)
Eliminated entries:
@Endillion 525,600
@MightyAlex 700,000
They are gonna have to do better than the zoom quiz/bin bag effort
I don't want teachers or anyone else 'WFHing' because they have a cough and don't want to spread it around because COVID. People should live with the flu as we have done forever. The immune system gets stronger by exposure to viruses. The only justification to stop the spread of COVID is because of the pressure on hospitals. That is it. And there are limits to what we should do in pursuit of that. Childrens education is more important. We've got to keep building stuff. We've got to preserve our mental health. Social work needs to continue. And so on. Or else we just have no future.
Full disclosure, no problem with you isolating - if the government is right however, by xmas day isolation will be absolutely pointless as everyone is already exposed.
The others, I admit, were courtesy of Google.*
Generally, I'd suggest it's better not to see a Cage film and perhaps fear yourself a fool than to pay to see one and remove all doubt
*I'm marking a late submitted dissertation; I'm extremely bored
And of course if Boris goes the political scene will change as well
People should be free to go out, even if they're positive for the virus, and live lives and frequent premises. To say otherwise is what is destroying businesses. If you choose not to, that's fine, I respect free choice. But compelling others not to (which further compels them to not go out even if not positive because they fear ending in isolation) is very wrong.
But as I said down thread, I am convinced these kind of things have snowballed into drinking sessions and clearly everybody knew about them and at very least turned a blind eye.
Also, it's shitty thing to do knowingly when you don't have to go out. Going on the pish isn't compulsory.
Just the way I was raised
It's hospitals and deaths data that is worth watching.