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Why the Tories could lose the North Shropshire by-election – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,594

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, first day of the Ashes.

    Wakes up, switches on TV in anticipation of seeing how the first session went.

    Quickly goes for another half hour in bed…

    Its all too predictable. England batsman just aren't good enough.
    The pitch looks terrible, and it’s likely to be a low-scoring match, but to have one out first ball, and be four down at lunch, was not brilliant to put it mildly. We’d have been better off bowling first.

    At least we got past 60, the most memorable Ashes score of recent years.

    Oh, and there goes Buttler. Into the tail now. It’s a good job England bat deep…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    edited December 2021
    Leon said:

    South Korea reports 7,175 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase on record

    France reports 59,019 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase since November 2020

    In the meantime, China has only reported 4,636 deaths in total, this in a nation of 1.4bn, which is the same nation where the novel coronavirus originated (and was probably created). That’s fewer deaths than Ireland, a nation of about 5m (ie a nation 300 times smaller) and about half that of Moldova, a nation of 2m (ie a nation 700 times smaller)

    That’s some impressive quarantining, China. Bravo
    You believe the official death toll in China?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,395
    edited December 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    South Korea reports 7,175 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase on record

    France reports 59,019 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase since November 2020

    In the meantime, China has only reported 4,636 deaths in total, this in a nation of 1.4bn, which is the same nation where the novel coronavirus originated (and was probably created). That’s fewer deaths than Ireland, a nation of about 5m (ie a nation 300 times smaller) and about half that of Moldova, a nation of 2m (ie a nation 700 times smaller)

    That’s some impressive quarantining, China. Bravo
    You believe the official death toll in China?
    Of course not. It’s a fable

    I was being sarcastic
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, first day of the Ashes.

    Wakes up, switches on TV in anticipation of seeing how the first session went.

    Quickly goes for another half hour in bed…

    Its all too predictable. England batsman just aren't good enough.
    Now 118/7.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,594
    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Apparently government advisors are saying the government should bring in vaccine passports. (BBC News paper review).

    Remember when people worried about ID cards.
    There’s plenty in the Civil Service, who have for many years dreamed about being able to introduce digital tracking ID cards. “Vaccine Passports” are their perfect cover to do it with little debate, and they have seen many other countries do just that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    144/9. Wood out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    edited December 2021
    England 147 all out in 51 overs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    It's time to say it again: as a fish rots from its head, so does any organisation, including a political party.

    Labour rotted under Corbyn, and it's taking them years to get back - helped by the fact they were only in opposition under him. The Conservatives are rotting under Boris. And, being in power, the misdeeds and missteps hurt much more.

    And these problems are because of Boris; or, more accurately, his 'management' style.

    The Conservatives need to get rid of him and put someone in place who can actually manage people - and has the desire to. A problem is that most of the cabinet are getting damaged by his leadership, and most of the competent Tories are against him, so will never get promoted.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    It's time to say it again: as a fish rots from its head, so does any organisation, including a political party.

    Labour rotted under Corbyn, and it's taking them years to get back - helped by the fact they were only in opposition under him. The Conservatives are rotting under Boris. And, being in power, the misdeeds and missteps hurt much more.

    And these problems are because of Boris; or, more accurately, his 'management' style.

    The Conservatives need to get rid of him and put someone in place who can actually manage people - and has the desire to. A problem is that most of the cabinet are getting damaged by his leadership, and most of the competent Tories are against him, so will never get promoted.

    interesting sentiments and I share a lot of them... trouble is it is hard to admit a mistake and the Blues will stick with BJ as long as he seen to be a vote-winner (he's not really been tested since his '19 triumph). I have no doubt his time will end sooner rather than later but I cannot see how it will happen.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    You get to know a lot of parents of your kid's class- and year-mates whilst waiting for them outside school. There's one guy I know, who is jovial and friendly with a nice son. The business he works for did quite well over the early months of lockdown.

    Someone has been posting anti-vax and anti-climate change nonsense on a local forum. I thought I recognised the name, so I checked, and it is that parent.

    It's that moment you go from thinking someone is quite a nice guy, to thinking that he's a dangerous idiot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,594
    Andy_JS said:

    England 147 all out in 51 overs.

    You have to feel sorry for the people who have made the trip of a lifetime, endured two weeks of quarantine, and turned up at the Gabba expecting to see more than the two days’ play we’re likely to see here.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    "US to demand halt to Nord Stream 2 if Russia invades Ukraine
    Washington asks Berlin to back threat to gas pipeline to deter Putin from military action

    The US is putting pressure on Germany to block Russia’s Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline as part of a package of sanctions that would be implemented in the event of Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine. The demand for Berlin and Brussels to prevent the pipeline from becoming operational is part of a sanctions package the US is proposing as it tries to stave off further conflict in the region amid fears in the intelligence community that Russia’s president is preparing for military action." (via google search)

    https://www.ft.com/content/d1ed75b0-338f-42f8-836b-f94cb00670ca
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    59,000 cases in France. Their second worst day ever, beaten only (I think) by one anomalous surge in the First Wave

    And this is BEFORE Omicron. And France has rigid vaxport rules and the rest?

    Europe is going into total lockdown, with mandatory jabs

    No it isn't, for Germany and Austria etc it is only vaccine passports and mandatory lockdown for the unvaccinated. Coupled with mandatory vaccinations from next year.

    For the double vaccinated and those who have had their booster it is little different to here
    Having spent three weeks in Germany this year, I can assure you that it is very different from here. France, not so much.

    It seems pretty clear to me that the whole raft of precautions only makes a difference at best around the margins. Each variant is more transmissible and we will probably find that all the mask wearing and the rest makes little difference. Perhaps we are catching it from air droplets into our eyes, who knows?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Boris Johnson is facing accusations of lying after senior No 10 officials were filmed joking about a lockdown Christmas party that Downing Street insists did not take place.

    Johnson and his aides have repeatedly denied that the event, reportedly held for staff at No 10 in December last year, broke Covid rules or took place at all.

    In the leaked video of a mock televised press briefing, an adviser to Johnson is seen joking with Allegra Stratton, the prime minister’s then press secretary, about “a Downing Street Christmas party on Friday night”.

    The footage, obtained by ITV, was shot on 22 December 2020. The Friday before was 18 December, the date on which multiple sources have said there was a staff party inside Downing Street, which would have contravened strict Covid regulations in place at the time.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    The visceral anger over this Downing St party and cover-up is almost indescribable.

    I expect the party faithful on here will try to cover up the impossible rather than having the integrity to own up to the disgraceful episode.

    Expect further slumps in Johnson's ratings.

    "We have a Prime Minister who is socially distanced from the truth". Keir Starmer nailed it.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Its funny how many lefties rage against Boris's lack of honesty but if I say that I don't care if some people die from Covid, that everyone dies eventually and we need to live our lives . . . then I'm attacked for not being "classy" etc

    If you want honesty, how about not insulting people when they give honest answers you dislike? 🤔

    I don't mind your honesty, but I think you're getting carried away to an untenable position. When you say "If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards. People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS." you seem to be welcoming mass deaths, as a way of shortening waiting lists.

    I can see a case for not locking down, and I'm having dinner with half a dozen people on Saturday, so I'm not locking down myself yet. But there's a balance to be struck, and if Omicron proves wildly infectious, we need to start taking more precautions, such as wfh where possible. It does your argument a disservice if you pretend it's a no-brainer and really you don't care if large number die prematurely or not.

    If that was really your position, then you would be a sociopath - albeit a notably honest sociopath.
    Not a sociopath - and I was sober but angry when I wrote that. Had a couple of glasses of wine watching the Ashes now, so calmer but have had a drink now.

    It is a no-brainer. People die, that's part of the circle of life, everyone dies eventually.

    Viruses are natural. If some antivaxxers and vulnerable people die from natural causes then that sucks but its part of life.

    Telling kids to learn from home, telling businesses to shutdown, halting life is quite simply not a price worth paying to postpone by a little while an infection that is still going to be circulating after the restrictions are lifted.

    There was possibly an argument that restrictions were worthwhile pre-vaccines, to get us to a state where vaccines are available, though since that same BS is being pushed post-vaccines now I am beginning to think I was wrong to back that and that people like @contrarian who opposed it last year were right afterall. Mea culpa.

    Post-vaccines it is a no brainer. Stripping years of childhood from kids who need to spend time with other infants, stripping years from teenager or adults or anyone else . . . that is really sociopathic, not being OK with nature taking its course.
    In evolutionary terms, COVID looks like it will be a relatively mild die off.

    In locking down and embarking on an experimental vaccination process we spent vast amounts of money and human well being in trying to defeat nature. But the longer this goes on, the more it looks like it won't work; or it won't be worth the vast cost.

    This is one of those things that a lot of people instinctively know - few people are now taking the rules seriously.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    Heathener said:

    The visceral anger over this Downing St party and cover-up is almost indescribable.

    I expect the party faithful on here will try to cover up the impossible rather than having the integrity to own up to the disgraceful episode.

    Expect further slumps in Johnson's ratings.

    "We have a Prime Minister who is socially distanced from the truth". Keir Starmer nailed it.

    The question is whether ordinary voters care about it. We'll have an opportunity to find out next week in North Shrophshire.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    59,000 cases in France. Their second worst day ever, beaten only (I think) by one anomalous surge in the First Wave

    And this is BEFORE Omicron. And France has rigid vaxport rules and the rest?

    Europe is going into total lockdown, with mandatory jabs

    No it isn't, for Germany and Austria etc it is only vaccine passports and mandatory lockdown for the unvaccinated. Coupled with mandatory vaccinations from next year.

    For the double vaccinated and those who have had their booster it is little different to here
    Having spent three weeks in Germany this year, I can assure you that it is very different from here. France, not so much.

    It seems pretty clear to me that the whole raft of precautions only makes a difference at best around the margins. Each variant is more transmissible and we will probably find that all the mask wearing and the rest makes little difference. Perhaps we are catching it from air droplets into our eyes, who knows?
    Indeed. Omicron might be infectious enough to force the endgame of the crisis, but if it's not then it seems very likely that the Sigma variant or the Taurus variant or whatever is ultimately going to prove so infectious that it'll defeat every NPI - even those that actually seem to do some good, like fresh air circulation and medical grade filtration masks - except for total self-isolation. That's hopeless, given how many people can't avoid being physically present in a workplace or going shopping in a supermarket. FWIW, standing on little dots on the pavement placed two meters apart, putting a piece of blue paper over your gob and obsessional surface cleaning regimes have probably all been so much completely futile juju/displacement activity right from the outset.

    Anyway: if it ultimately turns out that we can't rely on vaccines to put an end to this pandemic, then we'll just have to rely on evolution to do the job instead.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    darkage said:

    Its funny how many lefties rage against Boris's lack of honesty but if I say that I don't care if some people die from Covid, that everyone dies eventually and we need to live our lives . . . then I'm attacked for not being "classy" etc

    If you want honesty, how about not insulting people when they give honest answers you dislike? 🤔

    I don't mind your honesty, but I think you're getting carried away to an untenable position. When you say "If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards. People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS." you seem to be welcoming mass deaths, as a way of shortening waiting lists.

    I can see a case for not locking down, and I'm having dinner with half a dozen people on Saturday, so I'm not locking down myself yet. But there's a balance to be struck, and if Omicron proves wildly infectious, we need to start taking more precautions, such as wfh where possible. It does your argument a disservice if you pretend it's a no-brainer and really you don't care if large number die prematurely or not.

    If that was really your position, then you would be a sociopath - albeit a notably honest sociopath.
    Not a sociopath - and I was sober but angry when I wrote that. Had a couple of glasses of wine watching the Ashes now, so calmer but have had a drink now.

    It is a no-brainer. People die, that's part of the circle of life, everyone dies eventually.

    Viruses are natural. If some antivaxxers and vulnerable people die from natural causes then that sucks but its part of life.

    Telling kids to learn from home, telling businesses to shutdown, halting life is quite simply not a price worth paying to postpone by a little while an infection that is still going to be circulating after the restrictions are lifted.

    There was possibly an argument that restrictions were worthwhile pre-vaccines, to get us to a state where vaccines are available, though since that same BS is being pushed post-vaccines now I am beginning to think I was wrong to back that and that people like @contrarian who opposed it last year were right afterall. Mea culpa.

    Post-vaccines it is a no brainer. Stripping years of childhood from kids who need to spend time with other infants, stripping years from teenager or adults or anyone else . . . that is really sociopathic, not being OK with nature taking its course.
    In evolutionary terms, COVID looks like it will be a relatively mild die off.

    In locking down and embarking on an experimental vaccination process we spent vast amounts of money and human well being in trying to defeat nature. But the longer this goes on, the more it looks like it won't work; or it won't be worth the vast cost.

    This is one of those things that a lot of people instinctively know - few people are now taking the rules seriously.

    The 'experimental vaccine process' has been a massive success. The real 'experiment' would have been to ignore the developments of the vaccines and not use them.

    We can defeat nature.

    Let's take a counter-factual: nowhere in the world did anything about the virus from March '20 and let it rip. We did no lockdowns, no vaccine development. Do you honestly think that we would be in a better position, economically and socially, than we are now?

    Especially given that people would have voluntarily locked down anyway, and the virus may still have mutated in other ways.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,129
    Andy_JS said:

    England 147 all out in 51 overs.

    On the plus side, I shan’t be losing any sleep this week.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    darkage said:

    Its funny how many lefties rage against Boris's lack of honesty but if I say that I don't care if some people die from Covid, that everyone dies eventually and we need to live our lives . . . then I'm attacked for not being "classy" etc

    If you want honesty, how about not insulting people when they give honest answers you dislike? 🤔

    I don't mind your honesty, but I think you're getting carried away to an untenable position. When you say "If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards. People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS." you seem to be welcoming mass deaths, as a way of shortening waiting lists.

    I can see a case for not locking down, and I'm having dinner with half a dozen people on Saturday, so I'm not locking down myself yet. But there's a balance to be struck, and if Omicron proves wildly infectious, we need to start taking more precautions, such as wfh where possible. It does your argument a disservice if you pretend it's a no-brainer and really you don't care if large number die prematurely or not.

    If that was really your position, then you would be a sociopath - albeit a notably honest sociopath.
    Not a sociopath - and I was sober but angry when I wrote that. Had a couple of glasses of wine watching the Ashes now, so calmer but have had a drink now.

    It is a no-brainer. People die, that's part of the circle of life, everyone dies eventually.

    Viruses are natural. If some antivaxxers and vulnerable people die from natural causes then that sucks but its part of life.

    Telling kids to learn from home, telling businesses to shutdown, halting life is quite simply not a price worth paying to postpone by a little while an infection that is still going to be circulating after the restrictions are lifted.

    There was possibly an argument that restrictions were worthwhile pre-vaccines, to get us to a state where vaccines are available, though since that same BS is being pushed post-vaccines now I am beginning to think I was wrong to back that and that people like @contrarian who opposed it last year were right afterall. Mea culpa.

    Post-vaccines it is a no brainer. Stripping years of childhood from kids who need to spend time with other infants, stripping years from teenager or adults or anyone else . . . that is really sociopathic, not being OK with nature taking its course.
    In evolutionary terms, COVID looks like it will be a relatively mild die off.

    In locking down and embarking on an experimental vaccination process we spent vast amounts of money and human well being in trying to defeat nature. But the longer this goes on, the more it looks like it won't work; or it won't be worth the vast cost.

    This is one of those things that a lot of people instinctively know - few people are now taking the rules seriously.

    The 'experimental vaccine process' has been a massive success. The real 'experiment' would have been to ignore the developments of the vaccines and not use them.

    We can defeat nature.

    Let's take a counter-factual: nowhere in the world did anything about the virus from March '20 and let it rip. We did no lockdowns, no vaccine development. Do you honestly think that we would be in a better position, economically and socially, than we are now?

    Especially given that people would have voluntarily locked down anyway, and the virus may still have mutated in other ways.
    The counter factual scenario you describe is real in large parts of the world - looks like the new variant came from Africa, where vaccination rates and health infrastructure is low.

    I don't have any objection to vaccination; and have been vaccinated myself. But the arguments for it have always been that they will stop you from getting seriously ill, rather than that it will stop covid from evolving or otherwise save the human race. That is just faith.
  • I'm assuming that the 'everyone will get Covid, let wise Father Evolution sort it out' lads are spending every spare moment licking hospital door knobs and breathing in the fragrance of used & discarded masks? The herd salutes your sacrifice in aid of our immunity.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,413
    Up early as wife had a 6.30 start. Turns cricket on the radio to sound of blathering. Turns to internet. Regrets.
    Turns to pb. Lots of non experts wetting the bed about scary sounding reductions in neutralisation from one study, missing out the other, more optomistic study. Remembers that although. 41x reduction sounds huge, it still means lots of neutralising... And remembers the huge increase in antibodies from the booster.
    Decide that the evidence is coming that we will be mostly ok. It’s gonna be shit. But ok.
  • ..


  • "Eilish, cheugy and Omicron among 2021's most mispronounced words"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59573797

    I don't know if the BBC has a bet on omicron being the most mispronounced word, but they're certainly trying to help

    "The new Covid variant, named after the Greek letter O, is supposed to be pronounced "OH-mee-kraan""

    WTAF?!?!? kraan??
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    Up early as wife had a 6.30 start. Turns cricket on the radio to sound of blathering. Turns to internet. Regrets.
    Turns to pb. Lots of non experts wetting the bed about scary sounding reductions in neutralisation from one study, missing out the other, more optomistic study. Remembers that although. 41x reduction sounds huge, it still means lots of neutralising... And remembers the huge increase in antibodies from the booster.
    Decide that the evidence is coming that we will be mostly ok. It’s gonna be shit. But ok.

    Yeah, shame about the test though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,959
    edited December 2021
    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.
  • TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    Omega starts with an omega
    Omicron has two omicrons in it
  • TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    Greek letter chi pronounced kaɪ (starting with a chi)
    Chinese energy chi pronounced tʃi (nothing to do with the Greek alphabet)
  • IanB2 said:

    The other aspect of this story coming out now is that it makes another pre-Xmas wobble by the big jelly in the big chair, imposing another lockdown just before we meet family and friends, completely impossible. Which may well be a big part of the motivation for whoever had the scoop.

    Risky if that is the underlying motivation....if that leads to huge numbers of extra deaths.
    If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards.

    People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS.

    No more lockdowns. We did it until vaccines, but now enough is more than enough.

    I don't care if thousands die from Covid on a daily basis. No restrictions ever again.
    Nice. Very classy.
    Its honesty.

    Do you care that millions have had their education disrupted?

    Do you care that millions have had their businesses disrupted?

    If a few thousand die on a daily basis that's nothing compared to millions having their education disrupted that day.

    Be honest about reality. Lockdown is more harmful than some sick people dying.
    You may as well equip yourself with a hunting rifle and start roaming the old people's homes. Start culling the excess! You wouldn't even need telescopic sights!!!

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    edited December 2021
    Second half of the day in Brisbane washed out by rain.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/57163375
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,396
    TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    The notion of a proper way to say things is something for people with notions.

    Consider the different pronunciations we manage to have for words like "tea", "bath" or "Johnson is a f---ing bellend"

    And it's a bit moot when the pronunciation that appears to be gaining ground is "Omnicron", although that might also be a crafty portmanteau of "Omicron omnishambles" I guess.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2021

    ..


    Telegraph: Fury among senior Tories over gaffe

    Government sources outside of Downing Street reacted with fury to the video, which they claimed had tarnished the reputations of ministers who had been instructed to play down the controversy in the media. Several pointed out that ministers and officials across Whitehall had been forced to endure the backlash from industry leaders in their sector over Covid restrictions, on the orders of Number 10.

    Tobias Ellwood, the Tory chairman of the Commons defence committee, suggested that Simon Case, the Cabinet Secretary, should be asked to carry out an investigation into the alleged party and whether it broke Covid-19 rules.

    Others expressed anger that ministers and officials had been required to make personal sacrifices last December, like the public at large to comply with the rules, while at the same time staff in Downing Street had seemingly disregarded them.

    "We’re f-----. How could they be so stupid," one said.

    A former minister said: "It’s a disaster and some extreme humble pie needs to be eaten. I am absolutely furious because we’ve been trying to make the best of it on the basis of assurances and this kind of thing just can’t happen."

    Sir Roger Gale, a senior Tory MP, said the controversy carried echoes of the scandal that embroiled Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s former top aide “The No 10 party has all the hallmarks of another ‘Barnard Castle’ moment,” he said last night. “No 10 clearly has some serious questions to answer. Fast.”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568

    Its funny how many lefties rage against Boris's lack of honesty but if I say that I don't care if some people die from Covid, that everyone dies eventually and we need to live our lives . . . then I'm attacked for not being "classy" etc

    If you want honesty, how about not insulting people when they give honest answers you dislike? 🤔

    I don't mind your honesty, but I think you're getting carried away to an untenable position. When you say "If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards. People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS." you seem to be welcoming mass deaths, as a way of shortening waiting lists.

    I can see a case for not locking down, and I'm having dinner with half a dozen people on Saturday, so I'm not locking down myself yet. But there's a balance to be struck, and if Omicron proves wildly infectious, we need to start taking more precautions, such as wfh where possible. It does your argument a disservice if you pretend it's a no-brainer and really you don't care if large number die prematurely or not.

    If that was really your position, then you would be a sociopath - albeit a notably honest sociopath.
    Not a sociopath - and I was sober but angry when I wrote that. Had a couple of glasses of wine watching the Ashes now, so calmer but have had a drink now.

    It is a no-brainer. People die, that's part of the circle of life, everyone dies eventually.

    Viruses are natural. If some antivaxxers and vulnerable people die from natural causes then that sucks but its part of life.

    Telling kids to learn from home, telling businesses to shutdown, halting life is quite simply not a price worth paying to postpone by a little while an infection that is still going to be circulating after the restrictions are lifted.

    There was possibly an argument that restrictions were worthwhile pre-vaccines, to get us to a state where vaccines are available, though since that same BS is being pushed post-vaccines now I am beginning to think I was wrong to back that and that people like @contrarian who opposed it last year were right afterall. Mea culpa.

    Post-vaccines it is a no brainer. Stripping years of childhood from kids who need to spend time with other infants, stripping years from teenager or adults or anyone else . . . that is really sociopathic, not being OK with nature taking its course.
    +1
  • I'm assuming that the 'everyone will get Covid, let wise Father Evolution sort it out' lads are spending every spare moment licking hospital door knobs and breathing in the fragrance of used & discarded masks? The herd salutes your sacrifice in aid of our immunity.

    No. Philip says "people die so what" and invites people to die on the altar of his personal liberty. Note that he isn't inviting his wife and daughter to die, just other people's wives and daughters.

    Seems reasonable...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750

    Up early as wife had a 6.30 start. Turns cricket on the radio to sound of blathering. Turns to internet. Regrets.
    Turns to pb. Lots of non experts wetting the bed about scary sounding reductions in neutralisation from one study, missing out the other, more optomistic study. Remembers that although. 41x reduction sounds huge, it still means lots of neutralising... And remembers the huge increase in antibodies from the booster.
    Decide that the evidence is coming that we will be mostly ok. It’s gonna be shit. But ok.

    If I read the preprint correctly, that factor of 41 is the geometric mean, but it's actually dominated by a couple of outliers (Fig 1B; two of the three big drops on the plot are apparently samples from the same participant).

    It looks like a drop by a factor of around 10 in 10 out of the 12 participants (both for Pfizer only and Pfizer+first-wave infection), and factors of around 100 and 1000 in the other two participants.

    I can't see anything about the medical history of the participants and I wonder if the outliers may have been HIV-positive.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    Andy_JS said:

    Its funny how many lefties rage against Boris's lack of honesty but if I say that I don't care if some people die from Covid, that everyone dies eventually and we need to live our lives . . . then I'm attacked for not being "classy" etc

    If you want honesty, how about not insulting people when they give honest answers you dislike? 🤔

    I don't mind your honesty, but I think you're getting carried away to an untenable position. When you say "If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards. People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS." you seem to be welcoming mass deaths, as a way of shortening waiting lists.

    I can see a case for not locking down, and I'm having dinner with half a dozen people on Saturday, so I'm not locking down myself yet. But there's a balance to be struck, and if Omicron proves wildly infectious, we need to start taking more precautions, such as wfh where possible. It does your argument a disservice if you pretend it's a no-brainer and really you don't care if large number die prematurely or not.

    If that was really your position, then you would be a sociopath - albeit a notably honest sociopath.
    Not a sociopath - and I was sober but angry when I wrote that. Had a couple of glasses of wine watching the Ashes now, so calmer but have had a drink now.

    It is a no-brainer. People die, that's part of the circle of life, everyone dies eventually.

    Viruses are natural. If some antivaxxers and vulnerable people die from natural causes then that sucks but its part of life.

    Telling kids to learn from home, telling businesses to shutdown, halting life is quite simply not a price worth paying to postpone by a little while an infection that is still going to be circulating after the restrictions are lifted.

    There was possibly an argument that restrictions were worthwhile pre-vaccines, to get us to a state where vaccines are available, though since that same BS is being pushed post-vaccines now I am beginning to think I was wrong to back that and that people like @contrarian who opposed it last year were right afterall. Mea culpa.

    Post-vaccines it is a no brainer. Stripping years of childhood from kids who need to spend time with other infants, stripping years from teenager or adults or anyone else . . . that is really sociopathic, not being OK with nature taking its course.
    +1
    -1

    What Philip wrote is rubbish. For one thing, 'everyone dies eventually' is a truism that can be used to excuse all sorts of horrors or excesses. He wants *his* freedom - and he doesn't care how many people who are not him lose their ultimate freedom.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    The Saj was due to do the media round this morning.

    And now he isn't...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2021
    TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    Oh! you meant like scone and scone?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    IanB2 said:

    The other aspect of this story coming out now is that it makes another pre-Xmas wobble by the big jelly in the big chair, imposing another lockdown just before we meet family and friends, completely impossible. Which may well be a big part of the motivation for whoever had the scoop.

    Risky if that is the underlying motivation....if that leads to huge numbers of extra deaths.
    If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards.

    People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS.

    No more lockdowns. We did it until vaccines, but now enough is more than enough.

    I don't care if thousands die from Covid on a daily basis. No restrictions ever again.
    Nice. Very classy.
    Its honesty.

    Do you care that millions have had their education disrupted?

    Do you care that millions have had their businesses disrupted?

    If a few thousand die on a daily basis that's nothing compared to millions having their education disrupted that day.

    Be honest about reality. Lockdown is more harmful than some sick people dying.
    You may as well equip yourself with a hunting rifle and start roaming the old people's homes. Start culling the excess! You wouldn't even need telescopic sights!!!

    Don't bother replying to him. I'm not one for sending people to Coventry but this guy really isn't worth the aggro he brings to the table.

    Try it. Life is much nicer if you ignore him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    the evidence is coming

    I have to laugh at the phrase. I mean, evidence is empirical so the sentence is like an ouroboros.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    The lying is bad.

    Also that someone both filmed and leaked it suggests as self-serving approach
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    Downing Street still haven’t put up a minister to do the usual morning round of interviews today. It may be that they are struggling to find a willing victim. Several ministers batted for No 10 only to then watch last night’s video.
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1468481153254543360

    Kind of amazed that No.10 have pulled their spokespeople from this morning's media round. Suggests that, after a week of saying a party did not take place which evidently did take place, they currently have no idea how to approach this story.
    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1468480995766718469
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.
  • Heathener said:

    IanB2 said:

    The other aspect of this story coming out now is that it makes another pre-Xmas wobble by the big jelly in the big chair, imposing another lockdown just before we meet family and friends, completely impossible. Which may well be a big part of the motivation for whoever had the scoop.

    Risky if that is the underlying motivation....if that leads to huge numbers of extra deaths.
    If that leads to deaths then whoever dies won't be putting the NHS under pressure anymore. They will have zero NHS demands going forwards.

    People dying is a pressure valve release for the NHS.

    No more lockdowns. We did it until vaccines, but now enough is more than enough.

    I don't care if thousands die from Covid on a daily basis. No restrictions ever again.
    Nice. Very classy.
    Its honesty.

    Do you care that millions have had their education disrupted?

    Do you care that millions have had their businesses disrupted?

    If a few thousand die on a daily basis that's nothing compared to millions having their education disrupted that day.

    Be honest about reality. Lockdown is more harmful than some sick people dying.
    You may as well equip yourself with a hunting rifle and start roaming the old people's homes. Start culling the excess! You wouldn't even need telescopic sights!!!

    Don't bother replying to him. I'm not one for sending people to Coventry but this guy really isn't worth the aggro he brings to the table.

    Try it. Life is much nicer if you ignore him.
    I know I know, but when it's the first thing you read when you wake up.....
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750
    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    Perhaps the Health Secretary feels he needs to be drilled on what this new study means before he faces a barrage of questions about whether vaccines will still work.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    Scott_xP said:

    The Saj was due to do the media round this morning.

    And now he isn't...

    One thing the video shows is why Allegra Stratton never took any press conferences in the White House style, as was originally intended for the briefing room. She just isn't good enough for the barefaced lies needed, for that you need a delusional true believer. Shapps seems to be the Cabinet Minister to defend the indefensible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Andy_JS said:

    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.

    That is an amazing feat of quarantine. Keeping the numbers locked away like that so they can't contaminate the CPC, it's very impressive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Saj was due to do the media round this morning.

    And now he isn't...

    One thing the video shows is why Allegra Stratton never took any press conferences in the White House style, as was originally intended for the briefing room. She just isn't good enough for the barefaced lies needed, for that you need a delusional true believer. Shapps seems to be the Cabinet Minister to defend the indefensible.
    If he's willing to mislead the House over the content of the IPR I suppose lying about a Christmas party must be pretty small beer.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    Report from the Sydney Morning Herald:

    "COVID to have ‘life-long impact on population’ as fertility crashes to record low

    Uncertainty caused by the COVID-19 pandemic has contributed to Australia’s fertility rate falling to its lowest level on record with warnings it may never recover, leaving the nation with a recession-sized hole in its population make-up. Through 2020, 294,369 births were registered across the country, a 3.7 per cent or 11,500 fall on 2019. The fertility rate dropped almost 5 per cent to an all-time low of 1.58 births per woman, a fall larger than Australia experienced during the darkest years of the Great Depression."

    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/covid-to-have-life-long-impact-on-population-as-fertility-crashes-to-record-low-20211208-p59ftu.html
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750
    Andy_JS said:

    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.

    And in this country about 107,000.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,999
    Good morning all.

    Some more scientists’ reactions to the neutralising antibody study (I was asleep last night by the time Leon was demanding Twitter posts), this one from one of the researchers on the study itself:

    https://twitter.com/sigallab/status/1468346776583344132?s=21

    “This was better than I expected” and “it’s a tractable problem with the tools we’ve got”.

    And the cricket is making me nostalgic. England’s all time ashes nadir coincided with the best decade of the last half century. I’d happily put a picture of an ageing and wearied Mike Atherton in my attic if it meant I could relive some of the other bits of the 90s.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    Excellent work by Monbiot again this morning. It really is astounding what the government is up to, out of sight, with the Policing Bill. Now it has added further, open-ended amendments that, subject to the right legal interpretation, could potentially criminalise any public protest in any public spaces. Absolutely astounding.

    This government has to go now. It's not only rotten to the core, but extremely dangerous.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/boris-johnson-grabbing-more-power-amendments-to-oppressive-legislation-uk
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Andy_JS said:

    Report from the Sydney Morning Herald:

    "COVID to have ‘life-long impact on population’ as fertility crashes to record low

    Uncertainty caused by the COVID-19 pandemic has contributed to Australia’s fertility rate falling to its lowest level on record with warnings it may never recover, leaving the nation with a recession-sized hole in its population make-up. Through 2020, 294,369 births were registered across the country, a 3.7 per cent or 11,500 fall on 2019. The fertility rate dropped almost 5 per cent to an all-time low of 1.58 births per woman, a fall larger than Australia experienced during the darkest years of the Great Depression."

    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/covid-to-have-life-long-impact-on-population-as-fertility-crashes-to-record-low-20211208-p59ftu.html

    Well, they had plenty of penetration this morning.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Andy_JS said:

    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.

    If you shoot them before they die surely that is “with” Covid not “of” Covid?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    .@KayBurley confirms that the @sajidjavid morning media round appears to have been cancelled.
    Today was supposed to be day he marked 1 yr anniversary of UK first Covid jab.


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1468482698922668037
    https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1468479272784482304?t=DwvskaPx8Gh5fLtjMv_L6A&s=19
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    Andy_JS said:

    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.

    Certainly a highly monitored authoritarian state has its flaws, but applying public health control methods is not amongst them.

    Whether the figures are accurate, it really does seem that they have not had major outbreaks. Those would have been impossible to hide completely.
  • Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    Oh! you meant like scone and scone?
    Omega is a long o, as in pole. What the Greeks called a 'big o' i.e. o-mega. So it's pronounced with a long o.
    Omicron is a short o, as in pot. What the Greeks called a 'small o', i.e. o-micron. So it's pronounced with a short o.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    Health and safety in the factory? It just puts up costs and makes business harder. It therefore effects *my* life. We need to remove all health and safety in factories legislation, and if a few people die, who cares? Everyone dies eventually.

    But we should keep health and safety in offices. That's really important. Yes, I know I work in an office, but that's irrelevant ...

    For avoidance of doubt: /sarcasm
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    Trivial? This government was holding a boozy No. 10 soirée at the same time it sought to criminalise anyone who wished to see a dying relative before the end. It knows how badly this will play because they’ve spent a week trying to deny and bury the story.

    But think on this. If Omicron is a serious as some fear and we really do need another lockdown to prevent catastrophe, how willing will people be to follow it after this?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,999
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    According to China's official statistics, not a single person has died of Covid-19 for 18 months.

    That is an amazing feat of quarantine. Keeping the numbers locked away like that so they can't contaminate the CPC, it's very impressive.
    Andy_JS said:

    Report from the Sydney Morning Herald:

    "COVID to have ‘life-long impact on population’ as fertility crashes to record low

    Uncertainty caused by the COVID-19 pandemic has contributed to Australia’s fertility rate falling to its lowest level on record with warnings it may never recover, leaving the nation with a recession-sized hole in its population make-up. Through 2020, 294,369 births were registered across the country, a 3.7 per cent or 11,500 fall on 2019. The fertility rate dropped almost 5 per cent to an all-time low of 1.58 births per woman, a fall larger than Australia experienced during the darkest years of the Great Depression."

    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/covid-to-have-life-long-impact-on-population-as-fertility-crashes-to-record-low-20211208-p59ftu.html

    We were already going to see a great reversal in demographics worldwide due to all the other trends pushing that way (particularly in China despite the superhuman defeat of the virus by its apparently hyper-immune master race), but I did suspect we’d see something like the above across the West.

    Covid must be offputting enough for established couples planning births, but accidental pregnancies: must be through the floor.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    People say omega and omega. Is there really a correct way to pronounce Omicron.

    Edit: same as chi and chi.

    Oh! you meant like scone and scone?
    Omega is a long o, as in pole. What the Greeks called a 'big o' i.e. o-mega. So it's pronounced with a long o.
    Omicron is a short o, as in pot. What the Greeks called a 'small o', i.e. o-micron. So it's pronounced with a short o.
    I know. I had to get something from my schooling and the correct way to pronounce the Ancient Greek alphabet is better than nothing
  • eekeek Posts: 28,382
    moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    Trivial? This government was holding a boozy No. 10 soirée at the same time it sought to criminalise anyone who wished to see a dying relative before the end. It knows how badly this will play because they’ve spent a week trying to deny and bury the story.

    But think on this. If Omicron is a serious as some fear and we really do need another lockdown to prevent catastrophe, how willing will people be to follow it after this?
    It would require Boris to go instantly.

    And Omicron is going to be a disaster because I suspect the actual case numbers are going to be at delta’s initial Indian figures once it gets to critical mass
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    GMB have found a Tory to defend the party.

    Matt Hancock...
  • Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    The lying is bad.

    Also that someone both filmed and leaked it suggests as self-serving approach
    It seems a reasonable supposition that the person who has sat on this is also sat on other stuff. So perhaps we will endure a few days of you lot rapidly pitching from "there was no party, all rules were followed" to "there was a party? shocking - but the PM wasn't there" before the same person releases the video showing the PM there with a dunken arm round a pretty aide.

    We KNOW he was there. Because he is as Danny Dyer described David Cameron.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    Crucial question.. have cabinet been pulled off broadcast or are they refusing this morning? One looks bad, one would be v bad sign for No10.
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1468484320067260420
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    .

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    David, I have to ask how you manage to have your sound legal mind clouded like this. An "absolutely trivial affair" - people have had £10k fines handed out for the exact same. My mate gave birth alone and in pain because the hospital refused to allow her husband in. Following the rules. Others had loved ones die, alone, because of the rules. The Queen, sat by herself at the DofE's funeral.

    This is as far from trivial as it gets. A massive FUCK YOU to the entire country.

    Why are you still providing them succour? I'm not saying you should vote against them, just that your party used to have standards and it might be good to see them return. Get this lying idiot out and you can win the next election. Keep him and you're doomed.
    Yes anyone even partially defending this will look back quite embarrassed I suspect
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,672
    Scott_xP said:

    GMB have found a Tory to defend the party.

    Matt Hancock...

    Irony died.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,382
    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    The crime rarely gets you, it’s the incompetent coverup that does for you (see watergate and all similar affairs in the past 50 years).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    ... the indisputably pleasing narrative arc that Boris Johnson's administration seems intent on delivering...
    https://thecritic.co.uk/where-following-boris-leads-you/ https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1468484668597186564/photo/1
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Pfizer jab '40 times less effective' against Omicron
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp4WnyJN4Hc

    Were f##ked. We are all getting it.

    Similar error bars to that German newspaper report on AZ efficacy.
    You need to be very careful about extrapolating from small datasets.

    There's also not just one Pfizer efficiency number, there are a dozen:

    (1) efficiency against symptomatic infection
    (2) efficiency against mild-to-moderate symptoms
    (3) efficiency against serious symptoms
    (4) efficiency against hospitalization
    (5) efficiency against death

    Plus

    (1) efficiency one jab vs two vs three
    (2) efficiency when combined with other vaccines

    Plus

    (1) Efficiency depending on time since the vaccine was administered

    Vid says "up to 40", and gives a range 20-40 times.

    And says the sample is tiny, and that error bars are huge, and does not put numbers on it.

    Very little to see yet.

    PB having kittens Klaxon !

    Morning all.
  • Unfortunately, the breakfast news seems to be conniving with the Government repeatedly saying "the rules were not broken".

    Let's see an investigation into what the rules were in London last December, and how this party may have/have not complied with them. And then ask the minister (when he shows up) specific, forensic questions.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    moonshine said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    David, I have to ask how you manage to have your sound legal mind clouded like this. An "absolutely trivial affair" - people have had £10k fines handed out for the exact same. My mate gave birth alone and in pain because the hospital refused to allow her husband in. Following the rules. Others had loved ones die, alone, because of the rules. The Queen, sat by herself at the DofE's funeral.

    This is as far from trivial as it gets. A massive FUCK YOU to the entire country.

    Why are you still providing them succour? I'm not saying you should vote against them, just that your party used to have standards and it might be good to see them return. Get this lying idiot out and you can win the next election. Keep him and you're doomed.
    Yes anyone even partially defending this will look back quite embarrassed I suspect
    David prosecutes as a lawyer. A defender would have a better feel for what works as mitigation vs what really, really doesn't.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,382
    Scott_xP said:

    GMB have found a Tory to defend the party.

    Matt Hancock...

    Matt Hancock not being in Government can simply say he doesn’t know. And for reasons unknown Matt Hancock has been doing media rounds all week
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    Prof Neil Ferguson tells @BBCr4today that a "Plan B plus" of working from home and other measures could help slow Omicron “so its doubling rather than every 2 to 3 days, every five or six days".
    Says otherwise a fuller lockdown "might be possible at the current time".

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1468484717301440512

    Might have been possible before "the party". Completely fucked now.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Downing Street still haven’t put up a minister to do the usual morning round of interviews today. It may be that they are struggling to find a willing victim. Several ministers batted for No 10 only to then watch last night’s video.
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1468481153254543360

    Kind of amazed that No.10 have pulled their spokespeople from this morning's media round. Suggests that, after a week of saying a party did not take place which evidently did take place, they currently have no idea how to approach this story.
    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1468480995766718469

    Things must be bad if even Shapps or that one with the enormous head won't go out and bend over for this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    A series of ministerial visits with media access today have also been pulled.
    https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1468483951530549250
  • Scott_xP said:

    GMB have found a Tory to defend the party.

    Matt Hancock...

    As far as I could tell, MH may have broken no rules. As long as one of them was living on their own, they could be in a support bubble.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    Trivial? This government was holding a boozy No. 10 soirée at the same time it sought to criminalise anyone who wished to see a dying relative before the end. It knows how badly this will play because they’ve spent a week trying to deny and bury the story.

    But think on this. If Omicron is a serious as some fear and we really do need another lockdown to prevent catastrophe, how willing will people be to follow it after this?
    It would require Boris to go instantly.

    And Omicron is going to be a disaster because I suspect the actual case numbers are going to be at delta’s initial Indian figures once it gets to critical mass
    I had thought that the message to still hold Christmas parties was some cunning plan to build up natural immunity before omicron hits. I’m now sat here unable to conclude anything else that they knew they couldn’t ask everyone to cancel their party with this story about to explode, regardless of public health strategy.

    In short, they have completely lost my confidence on the defining issue of our age. If this view is widespread, the government must surely fall.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996
    The big public health message that Sajid Javid was supposed to promote to millions of people on TV/radio this morning… but now won’t, due to the Christmas party story.
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1468475442147508228
    https://twitter.com/paulmainwood/status/1468470325843218432
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021

    Excellent work by Monbiot again this morning. It really is astounding what the government is up to, out of sight, with the Policing Bill. Now it has added further, open-ended amendments that, subject to the right legal interpretation, could potentially criminalise any public protest in any public spaces. Absolutely astounding.

    This government has to go now. It's not only rotten to the core, but extremely dangerous.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/08/boris-johnson-grabbing-more-power-amendments-to-oppressive-legislation-uk

    And needless to say, there's no absolutely legislative imperative for this whatsoever. The government has already managed to jail a whole host of XR protestors under all the existing legislation.

    This pattern of brazen corruption and rottenness, and repeated, worrying power grabs with contempt for due process, suggests to me they're a threat to all of us, and we should all be protesting against this government.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,672
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Downing Street still haven’t put up a minister to do the usual morning round of interviews today. It may be that they are struggling to find a willing victim. Several ministers batted for No 10 only to then watch last night’s video.
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1468481153254543360

    Kind of amazed that No.10 have pulled their spokespeople from this morning's media round. Suggests that, after a week of saying a party did not take place which evidently did take place, they currently have no idea how to approach this story.
    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1468480995766718469

    Things must be bad if even Shapps or that one with the enormous head won't go out and bend over for this.
    Where you at the party?
    Did you know about the party and help no10 cover it up?

    Both potential resignation issues. No wonder they’re all hiding.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    ... the indisputably pleasing narrative arc that Boris Johnson's administration seems intent on delivering...
    https://thecritic.co.uk/where-following-boris-leads-you/ https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1468484668597186564/photo/1

    There is something fitting about Boris Johnson spending millions on a media suite only for its most significant moment to be catching him in a lie. It’s perfect that it happened during a rehearsal for the televised press conference that his Team Of Geniuses were convinced would Expose The Media. And given the amount of taxpayer money the government has spent on vanity photographers and vanity film crews, it’s especially pleasing that they have finally given us a completely authentic viral video.

    There is a lot going on in that minute of footage. The guilty shared knowledge that they had broken the rules. The astonishing ignorance from the actual prime minister’s actual spokeswoman about what the rules were. The laughter, at a time when some people were dying and a lot of others were desperate. It is very hard to see how anyone in that room can keep their job.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Scott_xP said:

    GMB have found a Tory to defend the party.

    Matt Hancock...

    The dick's out again.

    I'm not sure whether it's Johnson or Hancock that's got it out...
  • Andy_JS said:

    England 147 all out in 51 overs.

    Can someone explain to the England team they're supposed to be playing Cricket, not Snooker?
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Saj was due to do the media round this morning.

    And now he isn't...

    One thing the video shows is why Allegra Stratton never took any press conferences in the White House style, as was originally intended for the briefing room. She just isn't good enough for the barefaced lies needed, for that you need a delusional true believer. Shapps seems to be the Cabinet Minister to defend the indefensible.
    Though even he has ducked the gig today, apparently.

    But what should Allegra have said? The nervous laugh, the awkward joke, the gawping like a stranded fish... It's because, even if there's a legal loophole, it's not one the government can use without destroying itself.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    Andy_JS said:

    England 147 all out in 51 overs.

    Can someone explain to the England team they're supposed to be playing Cricket, not Snooker?
    If you did that, you'd be black balled.

    But it all went to pot this morning.

    Have a good morning.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    The Saj has reportedly withdrawn from a round of broadcast interviews this morning.

    Can’t blame him.

    Palace coup?

    I remain of the view that this "party" is an absolutely trivial affair. The lying, on the other hand....
    The lying is bad.

    Also that someone both filmed and leaked it suggests as self-serving approach
    It was a rehearsal for the actual presser - so entirely reasonable that it be filmed, so they could see how they came across. Unfortunately for them, now so can we.
  • Question - is it worth Starmer going all Max Verstappen at PMQs. "We know you lied, YOU know you lied". Get censured by the speaker. Withdraw "lied" and replace it with alternatives like "mis-spoke", "misdirected", "misremembered", said something that he knew not to be correct" etc etc
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Saj was due to do the media round this morning.

    And now he isn't...

    One thing the video shows is why Allegra Stratton never took any press conferences in the White House style, as was originally intended for the briefing room. She just isn't good enough for the barefaced lies needed, for that you need a delusional true believer. Shapps seems to be the Cabinet Minister to defend the indefensible.
    Though even he has ducked the gig today, apparently.

    But what should Allegra have said? The nervous laugh, the awkward joke, the gawping like a stranded fish... It's because, even if there's a legal loophole, it's not one the government can use without destroying itself.
    Her mistake was clearly in thinking that her job was to answer questions. No wonder she was moved.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,996

    Question - is it worth Starmer going all Max Verstappen at PMQs. "We know you lied, YOU know you lied". Get censured by the speaker. Withdraw "lied" and replace it with alternatives like "mis-spoke", "misdirected", "misremembered", said something that he knew not to be correct" etc etc

    I think "socially distanced from the truth" will get an outing
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Question - is it worth Starmer going all Max Verstappen at PMQs. "We know you lied, YOU know you lied". Get censured by the speaker. Withdraw "lied" and replace it with alternatives like "mis-spoke", "misdirected", "misremembered", said something that he knew not to be correct" etc etc

    No
This discussion has been closed.