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Yvette Cooper really shouldn’t be an MP – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited December 2021 in General
imageYvette Cooper really shouldn’t be an MP – politicalbetting.com

Following her reappointment as Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper became the third or fourth favourite with a few bookies to succeed Sir Keir Starmer as next Labour leader. I’m not keen to back her, in fact I’m a layer in this market.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • France reports 51,624 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase since April 4
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,000
    Andy_JS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Barry Sheerman (Labour, MP for Huddersfield since 1979 GE) has announced earlier this evening that he will stand down at next GE.
    He is the third Labour MP to announce retirement.
    The other 2 are Margaret Hodge (Barking) and Alex Cunningham (Stockton North).

    Labour NEC has recently agreed the timeframe of reselection trigger ballots (which are expected to finish by June 2022). So expect some more announcements by the end of the year from those not wanting to go through the reselection process.

    2 of those 3 are in so-called Red Wall areas.
    How Red Wall is Barking?
    Not much, it's more like an inner-city London seat these days.
    FPT:

    In which case, 'In the North' is not sufficient to equate to Red Wall either. Huddersfield is too fully mapped as urban, too diverse, somewhat studenty, not leavy enough (bang on the national 48.1 to 51.9 according to the main, was it Rawlings did that?, study). no long term trending to Tory. And proposed boundary changes get rid of one village, Kirkheaton which is a mix of red wall / trad Tory, and gain a quite Asian solidly Labour area of the town from Colne Valley.

    Near 12% Labour majority, will be a plum.land for whoever the Labour candidate is.

    On the other hand, Dewsbury, which would lose a lot of its rural hinterland and gains bona fide red wall areas from both Huddersfield and Batley and Spen - could switch back Labour, but will go from a traditional marginal seat with substantial well off rural areas to a very red wall looking seat.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,000
    Meanwhile an army of tree fellers and assorted police work a few hundred yards down the road from me.

    No sleep till Bradford.
  • - “Nigel Farage’s intervention helped Labour”

    Heck, her majority is so small, even the tiny Yorkshire Party’s intervention saved Cooper. She was extremely lucky.

    Maybe being a lucky politician is more important than being a competent politician. See Boris Johnson.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    Next Lab leader looks like the SPoTY market - lay whoever is in the news this week.

    And good luck to Lewis Hamilton, he’s my best result in the Sports Personality market. Hopefully the Dutch Shunt can whack a few more walls today.
  • - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
  • Barry Sheerman (Labour, MP for Huddersfield since 1979 GE) has announced earlier this evening that he will stand down at next GE.
    He is the third Labour MP to announce retirement.
    The other 2 are Margaret Hodge (Barking) and Alex Cunningham (Stockton North).

    Labour NEC has recently agreed the timeframe of reselection trigger ballots (which are expected to finish by June 2022). So expect some more announcements by the end of the year from those not wanting to go through the reselection process.

    Thanks Andrea, especially for your detailed (and complicated) explanation of the CLP “trigger ballots”. Great to see you posting.

    Italian politics as unfathomable as ever.

    I’m amazed that only 4 sitting MPs have announced their retirement at the next GE. Is the number usually not much higher by this point in a parliament?

    The 3 Labour MPs you name, plus the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, Douglas Ross (his Moray constituency is being abolished). Surely there must be a long list of MPs highly unlikely to be candidates at the next GE?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    This assumes somewhat that the red wall will continue to fall. But the tories seem more interested in defending their wealthy southern base.

    Brexit and Corbyn were also probably suppressing Coopers vote in 2019, so in these respects she should recover slightly.



  • I guess a related question is what it would take for Starmer to stay. There's a pretty huge range between making progress on last time and making it to PM (say Con Maj -20 or whatever). I feel like "goes forward but not enough" is kind of the default expectation; If that happens then Cooper probably hangs on - but is there a vacancy?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,869

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
  • I’ve only just noticed that Labour came third(!) in once rock-solid Aberdeen North. They held the seat between 1935 - 2015, with up to 70% share of the vote. They got 13% last time, miles behind the Tories in 2nd place on 20%.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    It makes me think they must have had the vetting done by activists, who as you suggest might not have seen the comments as particularly problematic.

    In the context of a by-election though, they’re trying to get more than just activists to vote for them, and such comments are likely to go down badly across the constituency as a whole.

    The comment she liked is worse than the one she actually wrote herself, but her own comment is a Godwin and easier for her opponent to highlight with their own social media campaign. The Tories are very good at hyper-targeted Facebook ads in particular, and these can be done quite under the radar of national journalists watching.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,869
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    I can't see much wrong with them either, apart from the too easy resort to a nazi analogy. "Othering" people is the first step to other mistreatment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,985
    Foxy said:

    It is not that Yvette has grown in stature, more that everyone around her has shrunken. The repeated elections of the last 6 years with their waves of defeats and purges have greatly diminished capabilities. In time some new talents will appear, but there are few yet apparent.

    I cannot see her as leader, but she may have a role as elder statesman.

    Ummmm…not unless she’s planning to transition as well.

    #topthatPBpedants
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,094
    And yet Cooper is an MP. She is smart and lucky. Good qualities to have.

    Hips may have failed, but at least she tried to make home owning easier and more affordable. That’s a good thing. It’s not the first time that a minister was defeated by a blob of vested interests.
  • Foxy said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
    Surely England needs to look strategically at NHS staff pay and conditions? You are heavily dependent on this group of workers to keep the economy, and thus society, affluent and robust. And yet they are generally treated appallingly by the Westminster government.

    I’m sure most rational people would love to see the overall tax burden go up a couple of points, IF the money went straight to NHS staff.

    Cut white elephants like nuclear weapons and planeless aircraft carrier and there’d be tons of cash to strengthen NHS resilience.

    If staff are “sorely depleted” after only 2 years of this, what is the situation going to look like in 10 years time? New talent must be attracted into the courses and into the job vacancies. Great pay and conditions is a given when young people look at their career options. They are (quite rightly) a fussy generation.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, being lucky can also mean instant defeat when it runs out. See Alexander and Caesar.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,094

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, being lucky can also mean instant defeat when it runs out. See Alexander and Caesar.

    And Boris. 😀 But Labour has been pretty devoid of luck, so it’s worth noting who actually has it.
  • darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
    A shocking thought just occurred to me: Gordon Brown might be right!

    - “For G20 countries to hoard life-saving vaccines and deny them to the poorest countries, while allowing tens of millions of doses to go to waste, is a morally indefensible act of medical and social vandalism that should never be forgotten or forgiven.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/covid19-pandemic-new-global-architecture-for-health-by-gordon-brown-2021-11

    This is the problem with folk who cry wolf: it’s almost impossible to know when they’ve genuinely spotted one.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, being lucky can also mean instant defeat when it runs out. See Alexander and Caesar.

    And Jim Murphy.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
    A shocking thought just occurred to me: Gordon Brown might be right!

    - “For G20 countries to hoard life-saving vaccines and deny them to the poorest countries, while allowing tens of millions of doses to go to waste, is a morally indefensible act of medical and social vandalism that should never be forgotten or forgiven.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/covid19-pandemic-new-global-architecture-for-health-by-gordon-brown-2021-11

    This is the problem with folk who cry wolf: it’s almost impossible to know when they’ve genuinely spotted one.
    Is there any actual evidence, to support his assertion of tens of millions of vaccines being thrown away by G20 countries?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,869

    Foxy said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
    Surely England needs to look strategically at NHS staff pay and conditions? You are heavily dependent on this group of workers to keep the economy, and thus society, affluent and robust. And yet they are generally treated appallingly by the Westminster government.

    I’m sure most rational people would love to see the overall tax burden go up a couple of points, IF the money went straight to NHS staff.

    Cut white elephants like nuclear weapons and planeless aircraft carrier and there’d be tons of cash to strengthen NHS resilience.

    If staff are “sorely depleted” after only 2 years of this, what is the situation going to look like in 10 years time? New talent must be attracted into the courses and into the job vacancies. Great pay and conditions is a given when young people look at their career options. They are (quite rightly) a fussy generation.
    I don't think pay and terms of service are bad at present, the depletion of the system is more a direct result of redeployment and marginalisation of training. My own dept isn't up to further redeployment, people will quit instead.

    Just a couple of days ago GPs were told to abandon Diabetes and other chronic disease monitoring so as to do more vaccines. Everything non-covid is being marginalised because there is no slack in the system.

  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    It makes me think they must have had the vetting done by activists, who as you suggest might not have seen the comments as particularly problematic.

    In the context of a by-election though, they’re trying to get more than just activists to vote for them, and such comments are likely to go down badly across the constituency as a whole.

    The comment she liked is worse than the one she actually wrote herself, but her own comment is a Godwin and easier for her opponent to highlight with their own social media campaign. The Tories are very good at hyper-targeted Facebook ads in particular, and these can be done quite under the radar of national journalists watching.
    Politicians acting “under the radar” of journalists is a good thing? I think not. Here be monsters.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,094
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
    A shocking thought just occurred to me: Gordon Brown might be right!

    - “For G20 countries to hoard life-saving vaccines and deny them to the poorest countries, while allowing tens of millions of doses to go to waste, is a morally indefensible act of medical and social vandalism that should never be forgotten or forgiven.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/covid19-pandemic-new-global-architecture-for-health-by-gordon-brown-2021-11

    This is the problem with folk who cry wolf: it’s almost impossible to know when they’ve genuinely spotted one.
    Is there any actual evidence, to support his assertion of tens of millions of vaccines being thrown away by G20 countries?
    Alas, yes.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,094
    Cooper is a necessary, but insufficient condition for Labour to make progress. She helps reassure and bolsters the political brains in the cabinet. However in this era of politics especially Labour needs to appeal to the heart as well as the head. I am not sure it’s a winning strategy to try to out establishment the Tories.
  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
    A shocking thought just occurred to me: Gordon Brown might be right!

    - “For G20 countries to hoard life-saving vaccines and deny them to the poorest countries, while allowing tens of millions of doses to go to waste, is a morally indefensible act of medical and social vandalism that should never be forgotten or forgiven.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/covid19-pandemic-new-global-architecture-for-health-by-gordon-brown-2021-11

    This is the problem with folk who cry wolf: it’s almost impossible to know when they’ve genuinely spotted one.
    Is there any actual evidence, to support his assertion of tens of millions of vaccines being thrown away by G20 countries?
    My default response to Gordon Brown articles and speeches is to assume he is lying through his teeth, so I’d demand some pretty solid sources for that one.
  • F1: it seems no word as yet on Verstappen's gearbox, so I'm going to start work on the pre-race ramble but, depending what I see betting-wise, it may be posted a bit later than usual.

    His final run was phenomenal, until it wasn't.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    That $25bn figure looks awfully low. The cheapest vaccine available is the AZ at about $3 a shot, so two shots for 7.5bn people comes out at $45bn just for the shots themselves, plus all the staff and infrastructure required to deliver them into everyone’s arms. The actual cost is going to be well north of $100bn, once vaccine mix, distribution and delivery are all factored in.

    If everyone needs three shots, it’s probably north of $250bn total, an order of magnitude higher than the estimate.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,482
    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    Pre Omicron, it appeared the Uk with good penetration of vaccination and minimal to no NPI had reached a steady state of perhaps 30k-50k cases per day. If a new Omicron vaccine is efficacious against infection at 90%, then we might still expect half a billion cases globally a year with normal travel and no NPI, even if every country had “completed” their vaccine programme.

    Which means it’s likely going to continue mutating and providing a baseline to profits for Pfizer and Moderna for a very long time, unless we get lucky with its evolutionary path or we have a further scientific breakthrough. Whether that will matter or not depends on the reliability of immunity beyond sterilising antibodies.
  • F1: markets haven't got going enough yet, so I'll have to bet later.

    One thing I'm going to check is Ferraris not to be classified. Both drivers have had problems already, and there's always the chance of lap 1 woe.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
    Surely England needs to look strategically at NHS staff pay and conditions? You are heavily dependent on this group of workers to keep the economy, and thus society, affluent and robust. And yet they are generally treated appallingly by the Westminster government.

    I’m sure most rational people would love to see the overall tax burden go up a couple of points, IF the money went straight to NHS staff.

    Cut white elephants like nuclear weapons and planeless aircraft carrier and there’d be tons of cash to strengthen NHS resilience.

    If staff are “sorely depleted” after only 2 years of this, what is the situation going to look like in 10 years time? New talent must be attracted into the courses and into the job vacancies. Great pay and conditions is a given when young people look at their career options. They are (quite rightly) a fussy generation.
    I don't think pay and terms of service are bad at present, the depletion of the system is more a direct result of redeployment and marginalisation of training. My own dept isn't up to further redeployment, people will quit instead.

    Just a couple of days ago GPs were told to abandon Diabetes and other chronic disease monitoring so as to do more vaccines. Everything non-covid is being marginalised because there is no slack in the system.

    Redeployment and marginalisation of education and training comes under the term “conditions”, which is much wider than simply terms of service.

    How are aspiring staff and current staff generally treated by training organisations and employers?
    1 Very well?
    2 Quite well?
    3 Barely acceptable?
    4 Poorly?
    5 Appallingly?

    Unless the answer is consistently 1 or 2 then the organisation is in profound trouble.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,869
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    That $25bn figure looks awfully low. The cheapest vaccine available is the AZ at about $3 a shot, so two shots for 7.5bn people comes out at $45bn just for the shots themselves, plus all the staff and infrastructure required to deliver them into everyone’s arms. The actual cost is going to be well north of $100bn, once vaccine mix, distribution and delivery are all factored in.

    If everyone needs three shots, it’s probably north of $250bn total, an order of magnitude higher than the estimate.
    I think the problem is not just money, but also health infrastructure for vaccination. Its buckling in the developed world. Less developed countries will just have to take it on the chin.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    That $25bn figure looks awfully low. The cheapest vaccine available is the AZ at about $3 a shot, so two shots for 7.5bn people comes out at $45bn just for the shots themselves, plus all the staff and infrastructure required to deliver them into everyone’s arms. The actual cost is going to be well north of $100bn, once vaccine mix, distribution and delivery are all factored in.

    If everyone needs three shots, it’s probably north of $250bn total, an order of magnitude higher than the estimate.
    and it isn't completely clear that the vaccines actually stop the virus spreading and mutating.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    It makes me think they must have had the vetting done by activists, who as you suggest might not have seen the comments as particularly problematic.

    In the context of a by-election though, they’re trying to get more than just activists to vote for them, and such comments are likely to go down badly across the constituency as a whole.

    The comment she liked is worse than the one she actually wrote herself, but her own comment is a Godwin and easier for her opponent to highlight with their own social media campaign. The Tories are very good at hyper-targeted Facebook ads in particular, and these can be done quite under the radar of national journalists watching.
    Politicians acting “under the radar” of journalists is a good thing? I think not. Here be monsters.
    Oh indeed. Here’s an article describing the different strategies between Lab and Con at the 2019 electron:

    https://fullfact.org/election-2019/ads/

    What the Tories were doing, is testing thousands of different versions of their ads, each sent to quite a small but very specific audience. As the campaign progressed, they refined the messaging based on response to these thousands of ads, to create ads aimed at larger audiences.

    There was IIRC in 2015, a story that the Tories were running close to £1m a month on Facebook ads, before the election spending rules kicked in.

    Facebook themselves are under pressure to try and stop the very selective targeting, especially in the US election where the spending is massive - but of course, the politicians want to stop only their opponents from effectively getting their messages across, rather than their own!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074

    F1: markets haven't got going enough yet, so I'll have to bet later.

    One thing I'm going to check is Ferraris not to be classified. Both drivers have had problems already, and there's always the chance of lap 1 woe.

    The two F2 races yesterday were as mad as expected, with the safety car keeping itself very busy. The run to the first corner has the track narrowing, which squeezes the cars together.

    That said, I might like to check the lay price for the SC - at the first race at the similar Baku circuit, the top 20 drivers all managed to behave themselves, despite the predictions of chaos and support race havoc. 10/1 might be worth a quid.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    It makes me think they must have had the vetting done by activists, who as you suggest might not have seen the comments as particularly problematic.

    In the context of a by-election though, they’re trying to get more than just activists to vote for them, and such comments are likely to go down badly across the constituency as a whole.

    The comment she liked is worse than the one she actually wrote herself, but her own comment is a Godwin and easier for her opponent to highlight with their own social media campaign. The Tories are very good at hyper-targeted Facebook ads in particular, and these can be done quite under the radar of national journalists watching.
    Politicians acting “under the radar” of journalists is a good thing? I think not. Here be monsters.
    Oh indeed. Here’s an article describing the different strategies between Lab and Con at the 2019 electron:

    https://fullfact.org/election-2019/ads/

    What the Tories were doing, is testing thousands of different versions of their ads, each sent to quite a small but very specific audience. As the campaign progressed, they refined the messaging based on response to these thousands of ads, to create ads aimed at larger audiences.

    There was IIRC in 2015, a story that the Tories were running close to £1m a month on Facebook ads, before the election spending rules kicked in.

    Facebook themselves are under pressure to try and stop the very selective targeting, especially in the US election where the spending is massive - but of course, the politicians want to stop only their opponents from effectively getting their messages across, rather than their own!
    Ta.

    - “As well as continuing the simple “Vote Conservative” messaging, new ads also included accusations that Labour would take SNP support in a future coalition in exchange for a second Scottish independence referendum, as well as running another Brexit referendum.”

    Starmer must really curse Johan Lamont’s disastrous decision to join the Conservative “Better Together” front in 2012. Back then it was big smiles and photo ops all round. In retrospect it was the political equivalent of voluntarily letting the mafiosi set your feet in a concrete block.
  • Mr. Sandpit, and yet look how often we see an Azerbaijan safety car now.

    Not sure behaviour will be splendid given how close both title races and the midfield is.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    edited December 2021

    Mr. Sandpit, and yet look how often we see an Azerbaijan safety car now.

    Not sure behaviour will be splendid given how close both title races and the midfield is.

    Yes, the second race at Baku in 2017 was mayhem, as have been all but the relatively straightforward 2019 event since. Three races of 5 have seen an SC, which is probably lower than you’d think.

    That said, the new race director does seem a little more likely to use the full SC than his sadly departed predecessor, amid rumours that he’s more worried about ‘the show’ than running a straight race.

    I’d be surprised if Max doesn’t need a new gearbox, even as a precaution. Remember when Leclerc decided against changing one after hitting the wall in Monaco qualifying, and it failed on the way to the grid so he didn’t start the race at all?
  • Mr. Sandpit, aye, Masi isn't as good as Whiting was.
  • If we had PR the SNP would only have half as many MPs as they do now.

    Statistically, the chances of them holding the balance of power would be reduced.

    The SNP want zero MPs at Westminster.
    The Scottish Labour Party are much closer to achieving that.
    The difference being that in the case of the Scottish Labour Party it would be involuntary.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,779
    Foxy said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
    The South African Medical Council has published figures on the severity of disease in patients in one hospital in Tshwane District, suggesting that typically it was quite a bit less severe:
    https://www.samrc.ac.za/news/tshwane-district-omicron-variant-patient-profile-early-features

    I thought initially this was getting beyond the level of anecdote we've had previously. But looking at it a bit more closely I'm not sure it is, given that the age profile of the patients was different from previously and that they say the patients with COVID-19 not on oxygen were admitted for other reasons.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114
    Jonathan said:

    And yet Cooper is an MP. She is smart and lucky. Good qualities to have.

    Hips may have failed, but at least she tried to make home owning easier and more affordable. That’s a good thing. It’s not the first time that a minister was defeated by a blob of vested interests.

    Not so for the mugs who spend thousands on HIPs assessors/compilers courses only to not get any return for it.

    Cooper is an accomplished performer, certainly, she seems to antagonise more on the left of,labour than she does in the Tories,
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    Presumably if someone has Omicrom (or whatever it is called) the idea is it would be picked up in the pre departure PCR test, rather than 2+ days after they have arrived in the UK, having spread it around in that time on the plane, at the airport, on the way home, and with whoever they are staying with whilst supposedly in quarantine.

    The theory is fine. But it will kill international travel for most people other than the very rich.
  • Well said TSE and this plays into my thread from yesterday. If there were to be an increased Tory majority at the next election then seats like hers are ones that would be prime to be gained.

    Even if there are net seat losses for the Conservatives then gains like this seat could net away some of the losses.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,085

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    It makes me think they must have had the vetting done by activists, who as you suggest might not have seen the comments as particularly problematic.

    In the context of a by-election though, they’re trying to get more than just activists to vote for them, and such comments are likely to go down badly across the constituency as a whole.

    The comment she liked is worse than the one she actually wrote herself, but her own comment is a Godwin and easier for her opponent to highlight with their own social media campaign. The Tories are very good at hyper-targeted Facebook ads in particular, and these can be done quite under the radar of national journalists watching.
    Politicians acting “under the radar” of journalists is a good thing? I think not. Here be monsters.
    Oh indeed. Here’s an article describing the different strategies between Lab and Con at the 2019 electron:

    https://fullfact.org/election-2019/ads/

    What the Tories were doing, is testing thousands of different versions of their ads, each sent to quite a small but very specific audience. As the campaign progressed, they refined the messaging based on response to these thousands of ads, to create ads aimed at larger audiences.

    There was IIRC in 2015, a story that the Tories were running close to £1m a month on Facebook ads, before the election spending rules kicked in.

    Facebook themselves are under pressure to try and stop the very selective targeting, especially in the US election where the spending is massive - but of course, the politicians want to stop only their opponents from effectively getting their messages across, rather than their own!
    Ta.

    - “As well as continuing the simple “Vote Conservative” messaging, new ads also included accusations that Labour would take SNP support in a future coalition in exchange for a second Scottish independence referendum, as well as running another Brexit referendum.”

    Starmer must really curse Johan Lamont’s disastrous decision to join the Conservative “Better Together” front in 2012. Back then it was big smiles and photo ops all round. In retrospect it was the political equivalent of voluntarily letting the mafiosi set your feet in a concrete block.
    Yes, but the same analysis saw the REMAIN element in Labour's leadership adopt a lukewarm attitude to supporting Cameron/Osborne's campaign in 2016.... damned if you do, damned if you dont. It really was a tumultuous decade.
  • This is a quite startling claim that the migrants who drowned in the English Channel were left to do so by HM Coastguard who knew they were there and in trouble for many hours.

    Has anyone seen this reported elsewhere?

    It would merit criminal charges if true I would have thought.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    ClippP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    I am also very concerned about the language and actions of the Conservative Party and the direction they are taking the UK and its people.

    Helen Morgan is absolutely right. I hope she is elected on the 16th to represent North Shropshire at Westminster.
    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,511
    Foxy said:

    It is not that Yvette has grown in stature, more that everyone around her has shrunken. The repeated elections of the last 6 years with their waves of defeats and purges have greatly diminished capabilities. In time some new talents will appear, but there are few yet apparent.

    I cannot see her as leader, but she may have a role as elder statesman.

    Only if she changes gender, which I guess is possible these days.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,607
    darkage said:

    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.

    The irony being that the swivel eyed xenophobes who voted for Brexit to "take back control of our borders" can't be happy with the way the "conservatives" are dealing with it now
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.

    Her post really isn’t. What language from the govt and media is ‘chilling’, I mean genuinely chilling as opposed to something people disagree with. The linking with Nazism too. Absurd.

    If people want to cancel donations to the RNLI over this that’s up,to,them, and it’s amazing the amount of times we read posts like this of a politician, or celebrity. Recounting what words of wisdom, that just happen to chime with their worldview, that their offspring has spouted.

    I have said here before we should process claims in France and bring people here safely. The current situation cannot continue. People should not be putting their lives at risk to come here in small dinghies but open door migration, as supported by many lib democrats is not the answer either.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,074
    darkage said:

    ClippP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    I am also very concerned about the language and actions of the Conservative Party and the direction they are taking the UK and its people.

    Helen Morgan is absolutely right. I hope she is elected on the 16th to represent North Shropshire at Westminster.
    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.
    Nor the 2019 Labour voters they’re trying to appeal to, as well as the 2019 Tories who they are trying to persuade to at least stay at home.

    Even if you do think the government is genuinely evil, comparing pretty much anything with the worst genocide of the last century is not a good look among floating voters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,985
    edited December 2021

    Foxy said:

    It is not that Yvette has grown in stature, more that everyone around her has shrunken. The repeated elections of the last 6 years with their waves of defeats and purges have greatly diminished capabilities. In time some new talents will appear, but there are few yet apparent.

    I cannot see her as leader, but she may have a role as elder statesman.

    Only if she changes gender, which I guess is possible these days.
    She has Balls attached, of course.

    Now for Richard Burgon so she can have a Dick and Balls.
  • darkage said:

    ClippP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    I am also very concerned about the language and actions of the Conservative Party and the direction they are taking the UK and its people.

    Helen Morgan is absolutely right. I hope she is elected on the 16th to represent North Shropshire at Westminster.
    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.
    True, she isn't going to win the absolute core Tory vote, but then she wasn't going to anyway. Plenty of Conservatives are upset at the government's direction on this, BTW, including right wing Brexiteers like David Davis. So I don't think this is going to harm her.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,069
    Is this seat yet another example of how Brexit occurred despite Nigel Farage instead of because of him? With his MEP salary and expense account he was about as credible in seeking Brexit as an SNP MP supposedly fixed on independence.

    He's struggled for relevance and income ever since. Good while it lasted though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114

    This is a quite startling claim that the migrants who drowned in the English Channel were left to do so by HM Coastguard who knew they were there and in trouble for many hours.

    Has anyone seen this reported elsewhere?

    It would merit criminal charges if true I would have thought.

    Unverified claims from a random Instagram account, need more proof than that.

    If true heads should roll, but they won’t.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,482
    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.

    The irony being that the swivel eyed xenophobes who voted for Brexit to "take back control of our borders" can't be happy with the way the "conservatives" are dealing with it now
    Do you think your life is better or worse for holding so many of your fellow citizens in mistaken angry contempt?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,069

    Foxy said:

    It is not that Yvette has grown in stature, more that everyone around her has shrunken. The repeated elections of the last 6 years with their waves of defeats and purges have greatly diminished capabilities. In time some new talents will appear, but there are few yet apparent.

    I cannot see her as leader, but she may have a role as elder statesman.

    Only if she changes gender, which I guess is possible these days.
    Don't think Ed would appreciate that.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,219
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    That $25bn figure looks awfully low. The cheapest vaccine available is the AZ at about $3 a shot, so two shots for 7.5bn people comes out at $45bn just for the shots themselves, plus all the staff and infrastructure required to deliver them into everyone’s arms. The actual cost is going to be well north of $100bn, once vaccine mix, distribution and delivery are all factored in.

    If everyone needs three shots, it’s probably north of $250bn total, an order of magnitude higher than the estimate.
    I think the problem is not just money, but also health infrastructure for vaccination. Its buckling in the developed world. Less developed countries will just have to take it on the chin.
    Yes, well said. Plenty of idiotic commentators implying that all we need to do is send Africa a big box of Pfizer vaccines and the problem goes away. Deployment is a huge issue.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    This claim depends on how far back you go in to European History. If your main point of reference is the 20th Century, then you may well come to that conclusion; there are also other perspectives though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114
    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.

    The irony being that the swivel eyed xenophobes who voted for Brexit to "take back control of our borders" can't be happy with the way the "conservatives" are dealing with it now
    Talking of swivel eyed there’s your obsession with Bojo and Brexit. 👍
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    That was the one bit of lasting wisdom Cameron came up with.

    To be fair though I don't think those comments will necessarily do much harm to a liberal democrat candidate.
    Nor are they entirely unjustified.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,321
    darkage said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    Presumably if someone has Omicrom (or whatever it is called) the idea is it would be picked up in the pre departure PCR test, rather than 2+ days after they have arrived in the UK, having spread it around in that time on the plane, at the airport, on the way home, and with whoever they are staying with whilst supposedly in quarantine.

    The theory is fine. But it will kill international travel for most people other than the very rich.
    It takes us back to the position in the summer - which had a powerful deterrent effect, as I saw and found myself in Europe, with very few British travellers, tales of widespread cancellations, and the odd anecdote of families having paid large amounts to be able to travel. The logic, I guess, is that people are prevented from getting on a plane and infecting others. The downside is that they can end up stranded, often in unpleasant circumstances (there are some anecdotes from Americans on the TA forums) - a further deterrent to travel for those unable to afford an extended stay in their destination.

    One can only hope these restrictions will be gone not long into next year.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021
    Most ridiculous and disingenuous thing I have read by @TSE on PB all year.

    "...in my humble opinion..."
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,330
    DavidL said:

    Is this seat yet another example of how Brexit occurred despite Nigel Farage instead of because of him? With his MEP salary and expense account he was about as credible in seeking Brexit as an SNP MP supposedly fixed on independence.

    He's struggled for relevance and income ever since. Good while it lasted though.

    I don't know his financial affairs, but he appears to be in demand as a speaker and just did a 2 hour interview with Donald Trump. He seems to want to avoid jumping back in to politics. He comes across as wise. After many years of regarding him as a golf club fascist he is now really going up in my estimation.
  • Taz said:
    From further down that thread:

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,869
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    I have no idea what happens in terms of duration.

    Omicron will be everywhere by Christmas, the only question is how many get sick. There ain't no slack in the system, and after nearly 2 years staff are sorely depleted.
    The South African Medical Council has published figures on the severity of disease in patients in one hospital in Tshwane District, suggesting that typically it was quite a bit less severe:
    https://www.samrc.ac.za/news/tshwane-district-omicron-variant-patient-profile-early-features

    I thought initially this was getting beyond the level of anecdote we've had previously. But looking at it a bit more closely I'm not sure it is, given that the age profile of the patients was different from previously and that they say the patients with COVID-19 not on oxygen were admitted for other reasons.
    Some further analysis in this thread. Tshwane is what used to be Pretoria.

    https://twitter.com/miamalan/status/1467172016918773775?t=DAnrPsnx4yquhTwHOOvjXg&s=19
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 950
    darkage said:

    ClippP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    I am also very concerned about the language and actions of the Conservative Party and the direction they are taking the UK and its people.

    Helen Morgan is absolutely right. I hope she is elected on the 16th to represent North Shropshire at Westminster.
    This is how the liberal democrats probably see the situation; but it isn't going to help them court the votes of conservatives who are concerned about illegal immigration.
    That might be a relevant point, Mr Darkage, if that were the only issue that voters were concerned about. However, I understand that voters in North Shropshire are also concerned about the deterioration in local services and the way they are taken for granted by the Conservatives.

    So if a politician comes along and says effectively that all human beings matter, that all lives matter - then this is an important message. They themselves also matter to the Lib Dems. It is quite different from the Conservative message, which says that the only people who matter are the stinking rich and their chums.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    edited December 2021

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    - the world is “closer to the start of the pandemic than the end”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/04/uks-progress-on-covid-now-squandered-warns-top-scientist

    At what point does the world acknowledge what seems obvious: this virus in now endemic?

    Would love to be proven wrong by any boffins out there. (Foxy?)

    He seems to think that we are going to have to live with covid for much longer, but is also arguing to maintain many of the mon-medical pandemic measures such as distancing, which have a large effect on businesses.

    The new variant seems to make it even more clear that we are all getting it at some point, but thankfully we now have a wide variety of vaccines and treatments available to combat the worst effects of the virus.
    “The longer this virus continues to spread in largely unvaccinated populations globally, the more likely it is that a variant that can overcome our vaccines and treatments will emerge,” he writes. “If that happens, we could be close to square one.

    This is what I have been thinking for a while. If you have half the world treating Covid with indifference as they have no other option, then the virus will surely spread and mutate in these places. Who knows: they may even end up being more resilient and immune to it. The way we have tried to treat Covid may end up being a mass failed experiment that ultimately ruins us.
    A shocking thought just occurred to me: Gordon Brown might be right!

    - “For G20 countries to hoard life-saving vaccines and deny them to the poorest countries, while allowing tens of millions of doses to go to waste, is a morally indefensible act of medical and social vandalism that should never be forgotten or forgiven.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/covid19-pandemic-new-global-architecture-for-health-by-gordon-brown-2021-11

    This is the problem with folk who cry wolf: it’s almost impossible to know when they’ve genuinely spotted one.
    He’s wrong about the ‘hoarding’ of vaccines, but he quite right that it would have been in the developed world’s interest both economically, and from a health point of view to have spent the money required to supply vaccines to poorer countries on the same scale we have supplied ourselves.
    At a time of capacity constraint it was obviously politically impossible to divert vaccines from our own populations, but that excuse expired some time back.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021
    darkage said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    Presumably if someone has Omicrom (or whatever it is called) the idea is it would be picked up in the pre departure PCR test, rather than 2+ days after they have arrived in the UK, having spread it around in that time on the plane, at the airport, on the way home, and with whoever they are staying with whilst supposedly in quarantine.

    The theory is fine. But it will kill international travel for most people other than the very rich.
    And you think the very rich want to spend an extra two weeks wherever they are before they are allowed back into their own country?

    It will affect everyone.

    But at least @Philip_Thompson had a say in this democratic decision by the government.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    darkage said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    Presumably if someone has Omicrom (or whatever it is called) the idea is it would be picked up in the pre departure PCR test, rather than 2+ days after they have arrived in the UK, having spread it around in that time on the plane, at the airport, on the way home, and with whoever they are staying with whilst supposedly in quarantine.

    The theory is fine. But it will kill international travel for most people other than the very rich.
    Can see what you're saying, and while that would apply to flights from SE Asia and, perhaps, the US, (for example) I still don't see how it works on a flight from Paris or even Tenerife. After all, people are masked, uncomfortable though it is. Again, what about. the solo traveller in a road vehicle?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    Absolutely. And we can trace the corrosive rhetoric back to an earlier Conservative government banging on about British jobs for British workers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    "Much of the poorer part of the world is still susceptible to the disease, and as long as it is, many more people will die, and the risk of new and more dangerous variants will remain. In May 2020, the estimated cost of vaccinating the entire planet was $25 billion. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, $20.2 billion is what the US military spent on air-conditioning each year in Afghanistan and Iraq. It might turn out to have been a very stupid $25 billion for the rich world to have saved. Covid is still here, 44 per cent of the world’s population is unvaccinated, and the lock is still rattling."

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n24/john-lanchester/as-the-lock-rattles

    That $25bn figure looks awfully low. The cheapest vaccine available is the AZ at about $3 a shot, so two shots for 7.5bn people comes out at $45bn just for the shots themselves, plus all the staff and infrastructure required to deliver them into everyone’s arms. The actual cost is going to be well north of $100bn, once vaccine mix, distribution and delivery are all factored in.

    If everyone needs three shots, it’s probably north of $250bn total, an order of magnitude higher than the estimate.
    I think the problem is not just money, but also health infrastructure for vaccination. Its buckling in the developed world. Less developed countries will just have to take it on the chin.
    Yes, well said. Plenty of idiotic commentators implying that all we need to do is send Africa a big box of Pfizer vaccines and the problem goes away. Deployment is a huge issue.
    We’ve had two years to work it out.
    It would have been entirely possible given sufficient funding.

    And the economic benefit would have been in the hundreds of billions to the developed world.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 339
    We need to be careful about the unintended consequences of using high technology. I have been watching a film called Geostorm staring Gerard Butler in which a network of satellites that control the weather is sabotaged, causing worldwide catastrophic conditions.

    We know that the new variants of pathogens can emerge in patients with immune system diseases who have received advanced medical treatment, and who are alive but with weakened immune systems. These new variants can have severe consequences for global human health if we are not careful. High technology is a doubled-edged sword and having a very large human global population makes the risks to humanity much higher.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114

    Taz said:
    From further down that thread:

    Fabulous picture. 😂
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,985
    edited December 2021

    Taz said:
    From further down that thread:

    How can she be too short if she's been doing the job for 34 years? Presumably she hasn't suddenly lost 3 inches of height or something.

    Edit - apparently they've redesigned the driving position to accommodate new wing mirrors, without realising that somebody under about 5 foot 5 couldn't see the mirrors and drive the bus at the same time.

    That's pretty impressively incompetent. Heck, even Nicky Morgan wasn't quite that stupid.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    It's a question around 'slippery slopes' surely. And, perchance, 'crying wolf'!
  • On "vaccine inequity":

    Vaccine equity is no longer about lack of vaccine, but state capacity to distribute and vaccine hesitancy.

    https://thetimes.co.uk/article/world-has-stockpiled-more-covid-vaccines-than-it-can-use-qz79rm66n


    https://twitter.com/Cox_A_R
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    edited December 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:
    From further down that thread:

    How can she be too short if she's been doing the job for 34 years? Presumably she hasn't suddenly lost 3 inches of height or something.
    The buses got bigger ?
  • ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    What is the point of masks in supermarkets? Which are hardly a notable vector of transmission. Or indeed in school classrooms (which undoubtedly are)? A report on the subject in Scotland commissioned a year ago remains conspicuous by its absence.

    Many of these actions are done for one thing only - to look as if our lords and masters are doing something.

    The tragedy is they're so mind bendingly incompetent we'd be far better off if they did nothing.
    Dont wear them - i have made up my mind i am not wearing a facemask at all anywhere and nobody has said anything . There will always be a variant , covid around so the logical thing is that we will have facemasks forever until they are mass resisted
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,108
    Taz said:

    This is a quite startling claim that the migrants who drowned in the English Channel were left to do so by HM Coastguard who knew they were there and in trouble for many hours.

    Has anyone seen this reported elsewhere?

    It would merit criminal charges if true I would have thought.

    Unverified claims from a random Instagram account, need more proof than that.

    If true heads should roll, but they won’t.
    I sincerely hope that the claim is untrue, although I agree with you about proof.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,482
    https://twitter.com/reptimburchett/status/1466139425029730321?s=21

    Rep. Tim Burchett (member of Foreign Affairs Committee) in a letter this week to the Pentagon:

    “The American people deserve to know whether we are alone in our galaxy… it is incredibly problematic that we still do not know if these UAPs are simply airborne clutter, advanced adversarial systems, or even advanced technologies not of this world”.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,021
    edited December 2021
    IanB2 said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    Presumably if someone has Omicrom (or whatever it is called) the idea is it would be picked up in the pre departure PCR test, rather than 2+ days after they have arrived in the UK, having spread it around in that time on the plane, at the airport, on the way home, and with whoever they are staying with whilst supposedly in quarantine.

    The theory is fine. But it will kill international travel for most people other than the very rich.
    It takes us back to the position in the summer - which had a powerful deterrent effect, as I saw and found myself in Europe, with very few British travellers, tales of widespread cancellations, and the odd anecdote of families having paid large amounts to be able to travel. The logic, I guess, is that people are prevented from getting on a plane and infecting others. The downside is that they can end up stranded, often in unpleasant circumstances (there are some anecdotes from Americans on the TA forums) - a further deterrent to travel for those unable to afford an extended stay in their destination.

    One can only hope these restrictions will be gone not long into next year.
    I can't think of anyone who in their right mind would chance not being able to return to their own country. How much fun would you have on holiday wondering whether you would have to find another two weeks accommodation at the end of it.

    That said, when I went to Greece last year and had an obligatory LFT test before departure the doc doing it was just about standing on the other side of the room and the swab only just touched my tongue. And moments later it was negative!!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,088
    edited December 2021

    This is a quite startling claim that the migrants who drowned in the English Channel were left to do so by HM Coastguard who knew they were there and in trouble for many hours.

    Has anyone seen this reported elsewhere?

    It would merit criminal charges if true I would have thought.

    I did see something similar reported a week ago on the Guardian online, with the 'allegedly' caveat, but cannot find it now, so maybe they took it down if there was insufficient evidence?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,331
    TOPPING said:

    Most ridiculous and disingenuous thing I have read by @TSE on PB all year.

    "...in my humble opinion..."

    Do recall he is master of irony.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,069

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    It's a question around 'slippery slopes' surely. And, perchance, 'crying wolf'!
    It's contemptible and shows the usual lack of insight. In fairness the liked comment is more extreme in this than her own and I do not disagree that we are struggling to remember the humanity of those willing to risk their lives to come here. But the complacent and ignorant othering of political opponents is a dangerous step down the road that the US has gone far too far down making an extremely unhappy and ungovernable country. This needs to stop if we are to address difficult problems like immigration effectively.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:
    From further down that thread:

    How can she be too short if she's been doing the job for 34 years? Presumably she hasn't suddenly lost 3 inches of height or something.
    The buses got bigger ?
    The position of the mirrors changed. They were moved up a bit.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,664

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning everyone. 'Warmer' this morning, Though from the sound on the roof, it's raining again.

    Quite what is the point of the new travel arrangements? I can, just about, see the point of my Thailand relatives not being allowed to board the plane without a negative test; they are after all going to be in the plane for around twelve hours, and neither I nor they have any issue with them having to have a PCR on arrival, but why does someone on a flight from, say Paris or the Canaries have to do two tests within a very few hours of each other.
    And what will be the arrangements at, again as example, for a lorry driver bringing over a load from Europe via Dover.
    Has the Sec of State for Health got relations running testing kit supply companies?

    What is the point of masks in supermarkets? Which are hardly a notable vector of transmission. Or indeed in school classrooms (which undoubtedly are)? A report on the subject in Scotland commissioned a year ago remains conspicuous by its absence.

    Many of these actions are done for one thing only - to look as if our lords and masters are doing something.

    The tragedy is they're so mind bendingly incompetent we'd be far better off if they did nothing.
    Dont wear them - i have made up my mind i am not wearing a facemask at all anywhere and nobody has said anything . There will always be a variant , covid around so the logical thing is that we will have facemasks forever until they are mass resisted
    Have you been vaccinated and are willing to keep up with boosters? If so, I agree with you.
This discussion has been closed.