There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
Tough. We live in a (flawed) parliamentary democracy.
One which has used of late referendums to settle constitutional issues and therefore set the precedent. While we are at it lets have a referendum on whether we even want to live in a parliamentary democracy as pretty sure none of us were actually asked about that one.
Sure, just elect a government which is committed to doing that.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
In 2017 I voted for Hilary Benn.
In 2019 I voted against Philip Davies.
In 2017 you voted to make Corbyn PM, in 2019 you voted to make Corbyn PM
Back home after an interesting 3 days south of the wall. Curtailed tonight's planned night out as my (10yr old) daughter has Covid. She woke up crying this morning as head and stomach both hurting. LF test was very quickly positive, nobody else in the household is +ive and we've all bee vaccinated apart from her. Currently asleep running a 38.6c fever...
Had a fun* drive home from Sheffield including a blizzard on the A68 at Soutra. I and a transit van were one of the very few vehicles that made it across as literally everyone else got stuck. Although my Outlander is on summer tyres they're fairly fresh. AWD, Mitsubishi's electronics magic and electric motors rather than a gearbox makes putting power down in very icy conditions pretty easy.
When I was young my family often went over Soutra when visiting an elderly relative who lived to the south [for other PBers; a steep hill/pass over Lammermuir Edge, demarcating the Lothian plain and the Southern Uplands]. It had snow fences either side of the road, and my father would never proceed with the trip if there was any snow hinted in the forecast or in the sky. The road is a lot better now, but even so ...
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
In 2017 I voted for Hilary Benn.
In 2019 I voted against Philip Davies.
In 2017 you voted to make Corbyn PM, in 2019 you voted to make Corbyn PM
Says the man who voted to make the current clown PM.
I have never denied I am Boris hardcore in general terms
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
Good news on the test but, honestly... you never miss an opportunity for a plug do you?
Hahah very good
BTW if you are in that part of the world and plague-safe, did you ever go to Abbey Dore = Dore Abbey? Mediaeval abbey turned parish church. I dimly recall local pubs and Grosmont Castle too, but Abbey Dore is quite striking. Or so it seemed to me decades ago. (No idea if open during non-worship, though.)
I grew up here. In Hereford. And spent many many happy months and years camping and fishing (ok, i did fishing just once: too boring) and wild swimming and then, as I got older, motor biking and love making in the meadows (ok, that was just three times) and magic mushroom picking (many many times) and dropping acid (ditto) throughout south and west Herefordshire. It is an English Eden with just the right amount of Celticness. I truly adore it
I thought I knew all the great churches, from Kilpeck to Garway to Dore to Craswall to that Italian one and yet, here we are, a stunner I never knew
I love this place. The rivers, the rivers. The Olchon and the Monnow, the Wye and the Lugg, it is is Britain arguably at its best. Unnoticed, and yet world class. A superb landscape, and largely unspoiled
I'm glad to have confirmed my memory of how special Dore church is. I was amazed to find it as a student having a quiet hike with rucksack from Brecon to Hereford checking off castles and manor houses.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
In 2017 I voted for Hilary Benn.
In 2019 I voted against Philip Davies.
In 2017 you voted to make Corbyn PM, in 2019 you voted to make Corbyn PM
So did Tony Blair!
We cannot be sure, however Blair at least has the excuse he did not vote to make Corbyn Labour leader, though yes on this definition Blair counts as Corbynite hardcore but only because as a former leader of the Labour Party he had to vote Labour, otherwise he would have voted LD as for example Alistair Campbell did in the 2019 Euros which led to his suspension from Labour
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
OK, I'm an odd minority, but as an anti-Johnson fed up currently ex- One Nation Tory, I looked at the maths in my constituency (not Romford in 2019) and voted Labour to try for a small Conservative majority rather than the big one we got. Hey ho.
And that was despite Jez, not because of him, and still wonder if I did the right thing. God knows what I've have done in a more decisive marginal.
Anyone who voted Corbyn in 2017 and 2019 is Corbynite hardcore, including you.
You voted twice to make the socialist Corbyn PM, despite the anti semitism etc, you did not even go LD as an anti Johnsonite you voted full Corbyn Labour
Sorry for not fitting in your categories.
But my calculation really was "two targets, one bullet, which one can I best hit from here?" In my perfect world, I'd have liked both of them to lose.
By the way, I do hope that isn't your doorstep manner.
If in your perfect world you wanted them both to lose you could have voted LD.
However no, you voted full Corbyn Labour, twice, in a seat that had Corbyn won it would have given Labour an overall majority, not just cut the Tory majority.
No Tory, One Nation or other, would ever have voted Corbyn Labour as you did, a handful of Tory One Nation Remainers may have voted LD in 2019 or CUK, not a single one would have voted for Corbyn Labour
Thanks for telling me what I think.
Look, I've explained my working to you. In the constituency I was in, the Lib Dems were clearly irrelevant- it was, and is, a Red/Blue marginal. It was also the sort of place where Labour can win and still be a long way from a majority. Which is why I voted the way I did.
Isn't "why don't you go and join the Tories?" the sort of thing that Jez's disciples were/are rightly pilloried for saying?
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
OK, I'm an odd minority, but as an anti-Johnson fed up currently ex- One Nation Tory, I looked at the maths in my constituency (not Romford in 2019) and voted Labour to try for a small Conservative majority rather than the big one we got. Hey ho.
And that was despite Jez, not because of him, and still wonder if I did the right thing. God knows what I've have done in a more decisive marginal.
Anyone who voted Corbyn in 2017 and 2019 is Corbynite hardcore, including you.
You voted twice to make the socialist Corbyn PM, despite the anti semitism etc, you did not even go LD as an anti Johnsonite you voted full Corbyn Labour
Sorry for not fitting in your categories.
But my calculation really was "two targets, one bullet, which one can I best hit from here?" In my perfect world, I'd have liked both of them to lose.
By the way, I do hope that isn't your doorstep manner.
If in your perfect world you wanted them both to lose you could have voted LD.
However no, you voted full Corbyn Labour, twice, in a seat that had Corbyn won it would have given Labour an overall majority, not just cut the Tory majority.
No Tory, One Nation or other, would ever have voted Corbyn Labour as you did, a handful of Tory One Nation Remainers may have voted LD in 2019 or CUK, not a single one would have voted for Corbyn Labour
Thanks for telling me what I think.
Look, I've explained my working to you. In the constituency I was in, the Lib Dems were clearly irrelevant- it was, and is, a Red/Blue marginal. It was also the sort of place where Labour can win and still be a long way from a majority. Which is why I voted the way I did.
Isn't "why don't you go and join the Tories?" the sort of thing that Jez's disciples were/are rightly pilloried for saying?
You voted Labour to make Corbyn PM, if you equally generally despised Corbyn and Boris you would have stayed home or voted LD.
The fact you voted Corbyn means you would have been OK with a Corbyn government. Jez's disciples would have been fine with you then, it is those Labour MPs and supporters who went LD or CUK in 2019 or even Tory over Corbyn, anti Semitism etc who they despised
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Interesting data issue: very, very low case figures by day of testing from the 2nd of December from Yorkshire. Phenomenon doesn't seem to exactly match planning region: Richmondshire doesn't seem to have the Yorkshire effect, but Bassetlaw, North East Derbyshire, Chesterfield all do. I wonder why this should be so. Might it correspond to hospital regions?
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter. Indeed as you voted for Labour under Blair but have voted Conservative since, one could say 'as BigG goes, so goes the Nation!'
Travellers heading to UK will now have to have Covid test before their departure in effort to limit spread of virus, government says
That is an excellent precaution.
This was the sort of thing an even barely competent opposition should have been demanding days ago.
Why, because foreigners are more likely to be diseased than proper British folk?
@IshmaelZ your marzipan dildo analogy from earlier is looking more apt after this announcement. How quant that we were worried about Vax passports and now what we have is worse. Tests to return to your own country with no allowance for whether you are vaccinated or not.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
Good news on the test but, honestly... you never miss an opportunity for a plug do you?
Hahah very good
BTW if you are in that part of the world and plague-safe, did you ever go to Abbey Dore = Dore Abbey? Mediaeval abbey turned parish church. I dimly recall local pubs and Grosmont Castle too, but Abbey Dore is quite striking. Or so it seemed to me decades ago. (No idea if open during non-worship, though.)
I grew up here. In Hereford. And spent many many happy months and years camping and fishing (ok, i did fishing just once: too boring) and wild swimming and then, as I got older, motor biking and love making in the meadows (ok, that was just three times) and magic mushroom picking (many many times) and dropping acid (ditto) throughout south and west Herefordshire. It is an English Eden with just the right amount of Celticness. I truly adore it
I thought I knew all the great churches, from Kilpeck to Garway to Dore to Craswall to that Italian one and yet, here we are, a stunner I never knew
I love this place. The rivers, the rivers. The Olchon and the Monnow, the Wye and the Lugg, it is is Britain arguably at its best. Unnoticed, and yet world class. A superb landscape, and largely unspoiled
Yes I agree it’s an English (and Welsh) Eden. I lived 8 happy years in Hereford on the cathedral close and at weekends in the cottage my grandfather bought in Much Birch.
I was last there a couple of months ago with friends and you could see how their assumptions about how nice this country can get were being rewritten as we walked by the bathing stretch of the monnow next to Skenfrith castle and the ridiculous Italian pastiche church in Hoarwithy.
It’s the closest Britain gets to rural central France, basically.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
The Associated Press @AP · 38m Donald Trump’s new social media company and its special purpose acquisition company partner say investors have pledged $1 billion. The former president, who has been banned from Twitter, plans to launch a messaging app called "Truth Social."
The Associated Press @AP · 38m Donald Trump’s new social media company and its special purpose acquisition company partner say investors have pledged $1 billion. The former president, who has been banned from Twitter, plans to launch a messaging app called "Truth Social."
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I have actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965, excluding when I twice voted for Blair, and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present, as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
Though the time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
Good news on the test but, honestly... you never miss an opportunity for a plug do you?
Hahah very good
BTW if you are in that part of the world and plague-safe, did you ever go to Abbey Dore = Dore Abbey? Mediaeval abbey turned parish church. I dimly recall local pubs and Grosmont Castle too, but Abbey Dore is quite striking. Or so it seemed to me decades ago. (No idea if open during non-worship, though.)
I grew up here. In Hereford. And spent many many happy months and years camping and fishing (ok, i did fishing just once: too boring) and wild swimming and then, as I got older, motor biking and love making in the meadows (ok, that was just three times) and magic mushroom picking (many many times) and dropping acid (ditto) throughout south and west Herefordshire. It is an English Eden with just the right amount of Celticness. I truly adore it
I thought I knew all the great churches, from Kilpeck to Garway to Dore to Craswall to that Italian one and yet, here we are, a stunner I never knew
I love this place. The rivers, the rivers. The Olchon and the Monnow, the Wye and the Lugg, it is is Britain arguably at its best. Unnoticed, and yet world class. A superb landscape, and largely unspoiled
STOP telling people about Herefordshire. There's enough soakaway of 2nd home londoners from the Coltswolds as it is.
The Associated Press @AP · 38m Donald Trump’s new social media company and its special purpose acquisition company partner say investors have pledged $1 billion. The former president, who has been banned from Twitter, plans to launch a messaging app called "Truth Social."
Back home after an interesting 3 days south of the wall. Curtailed tonight's planned night out as my (10yr old) daughter has Covid. She woke up crying this morning as head and stomach both hurting. LF test was very quickly positive, nobody else in the household is +ive and we've all bee vaccinated apart from her. Currently asleep running a 38.6c fever...
Had a fun* drive home from Sheffield including a blizzard on the A68 at Soutra. I and a transit van were one of the very few vehicles that made it across as literally everyone else got stuck. Although my Outlander is on summer tyres they're fairly fresh. AWD, Mitsubishi's electronics magic and electric motors rather than a gearbox makes putting power down in very icy conditions pretty easy.
When I was young my family often went over Soutra when visiting an elderly relative who lived to the south [for other PBers; a steep hill/pass over Lammermuir Edge, demarcating the Lothian plain and the Southern Uplands]. It had snow fences either side of the road, and my father would never proceed with the trip if there was any snow hinted in the forecast or in the sky. The road is a lot better now, but even so ...
Having had the report from home first that she was unwell and then positive, it was a bit of a flurry having to rearrange the calendar. So I didn't actually check the forecast before setting off...
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I have actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965, excluding when I twice voted for Blair, and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present, as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
Though the time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
He doesn't know the names of all of his children, never mind his candidates.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
Personally I reckon he's annoyed about the Fourth Crusade.
Hardline Greek Orthodox priests like this one consider Catholics and the Pope to be heretics, conservative Catholics and Latin Mass fans are also not great fans of Francis and do not consider this Pope to be true to the Roman Catholic core traditions and values, however they are a minority of Catholics
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
today’s been good. My other half now mixing cocktails and we are going to stay in and watch a film now. 🙋♀️
Whilst I had to bin off tonight's beer and parmo with friends and instead come home, it has still been a good day in the circumstance. I had a bit of an adventure with my Outlander in a blizzard, and got to cuddle my little girl and tell her why me being home for her is more important than anything else.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
Good news on the test but, honestly... you never miss an opportunity for a plug do you?
Hahah very good
BTW if you are in that part of the world and plague-safe, did you ever go to Abbey Dore = Dore Abbey? Mediaeval abbey turned parish church. I dimly recall local pubs and Grosmont Castle too, but Abbey Dore is quite striking. Or so it seemed to me decades ago. (No idea if open during non-worship, though.)
I grew up here. In Hereford. And spent many many happy months and years camping and fishing (ok, i did fishing just once: too boring) and wild swimming and then, as I got older, motor biking and love making in the meadows (ok, that was just three times) and magic mushroom picking (many many times) and dropping acid (ditto) throughout south and west Herefordshire. It is an English Eden with just the right amount of Celticness. I truly adore it
I thought I knew all the great churches, from Kilpeck to Garway to Dore to Craswall to that Italian one and yet, here we are, a stunner I never knew
I love this place. The rivers, the rivers. The Olchon and the Monnow, the Wye and the Lugg, it is is Britain arguably at its best. Unnoticed, and yet world class. A superb landscape, and largely unspoiled
Yes I agree it’s an English (and Welsh) Eden. I lived 8 happy years in Hereford on the cathedral close and at weekends in the cottage my grandfather bought in Much Birch.
I was last there a couple of months ago with friends and you could see how their assumptions about how nice this country can get were being rewritten as we walked by the bathing stretch of the monnow next to Skenfrith castle and the ridiculous Italian pastiche church in Hoarwithy.
It’s the closest Britain gets to rural central France, basically.
Great food now, as well. And you are never far from a magnificent supermarket
For a cultural/walking holiday, devoid of hideous mass tourism, it is hard to beat the Wye Valley and the Marches, anywhere in the world
Every 6-8 miles there is a genuinely fascinating church/castle/garden/stately home/view/ancient monument/Neolithic site - plus, usually, a beautiful pub
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
Another fruitful argument as well would be pointing out the brexit referendum would have been nigh on impossible to get under a pr voting system as there would always have been enough opposition to vote it down.
Back home after an interesting 3 days south of the wall. Curtailed tonight's planned night out as my (10yr old) daughter has Covid. She woke up crying this morning as head and stomach both hurting. LF test was very quickly positive, nobody else in the household is +ive and we've all bee vaccinated apart from her. Currently asleep running a 38.6c fever...
Had a fun* drive home from Sheffield including a blizzard on the A68 at Soutra. I and a transit van were one of the very few vehicles that made it across as literally everyone else got stuck. Although my Outlander is on summer tyres they're fairly fresh. AWD, Mitsubishi's electronics magic and electric motors rather than a gearbox makes putting power down in very icy conditions pretty easy.
So sorry to hear that - I hope she feels better soon.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
Good news on the test but, honestly... you never miss an opportunity for a plug do you?
Hahah very good
BTW if you are in that part of the world and plague-safe, did you ever go to Abbey Dore = Dore Abbey? Mediaeval abbey turned parish church. I dimly recall local pubs and Grosmont Castle too, but Abbey Dore is quite striking. Or so it seemed to me decades ago. (No idea if open during non-worship, though.)
I grew up here. In Hereford. And spent many many happy months and years camping and fishing (ok, i did fishing just once: too boring) and wild swimming and then, as I got older, motor biking and love making in the meadows (ok, that was just three times) and magic mushroom picking (many many times) and dropping acid (ditto) throughout south and west Herefordshire. It is an English Eden with just the right amount of Celticness. I truly adore it
I thought I knew all the great churches, from Kilpeck to Garway to Dore to Craswall to that Italian one and yet, here we are, a stunner I never knew
I love this place. The rivers, the rivers. The Olchon and the Monnow, the Wye and the Lugg, it is is Britain arguably at its best. Unnoticed, and yet world class. A superb landscape, and largely unspoiled
STOP telling people about Herefordshire. There's enough soakaway of 2nd home londoners from the Coltswolds as it is.
It's fine. Herefordshire is immune from all that, just like its Edenic and almost completely hiding-in-plain sight French doppelganger the Maconnais and Beaujolais. Few people get through the neutralising antibodies that stop them even working out where it is on a map, and if they do the T-cells step in to limit any damage.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
Another fruitful argument as well would be pointing out the brexit referendum would have been nigh on impossible to get under a pr voting system as there would always have been enough opposition to vote it down.
Nor would Brexit have ever got done anyway, even in 2019 the Conservatives and Brexit Party combined only got 46% of the vote and there was no majority for any form of Brexit without one party having a majority in Parliament as 2017-19 showed
Back home after an interesting 3 days south of the wall. Curtailed tonight's planned night out as my (10yr old) daughter has Covid. She woke up crying this morning as head and stomach both hurting. LF test was very quickly positive, nobody else in the household is +ive and we've all bee vaccinated apart from her. Currently asleep running a 38.6c fever...
Had a fun* drive home from Sheffield including a blizzard on the A68 at Soutra. I and a transit van were one of the very few vehicles that made it across as literally everyone else got stuck. Although my Outlander is on summer tyres they're fairly fresh. AWD, Mitsubishi's electronics magic and electric motors rather than a gearbox makes putting power down in very icy conditions pretty easy.
So sorry to hear that - I hope she feels better soon.
Have just been cuddling her. Temperature now 37.2 which is a lot less alarming.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
We’ve had the same thing this week. My breathing still hasn’t fully recovered on day 8 though my blood sats have returned to normal. My 1 yr old spent 34 of 36 hours in his cot with it. I’ve not had an illness like it before.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
On the topic of minority government, the US faces a more intractable crisis than do we.
https://fallows.substack.com/p/fools-drunks-and-the-united-states … Thus we have Democratic candidates for president winning the national vote in seven of the eight past elections—but appointing only three of the nine current members of the Supreme Court. Thus we have Senators representing less than one-third of the population blocking proposals supported by most of the public. Thus we have even worse failure-of-democracy structures in many state governments, for instance as laid out by political scientist David Pepper here. Thus we have the voting-restrictions and gerrymandering plans I needn’t detail but that we read about every day.
“Majority rule” should not inherently be a partisan issue, though the Republican party obviously now benefits from this imbalance—and may coldly believe that minority rule is the party’s main hope. For the country, it’s a question of governing viability. Democracies depend in the long term on democratic processes. The U.S. system is now structurally so anti-democratic that it survives only with something like public-spiritedness of all parties.
Which we can’t rely on…
At least we have a constitution that can be amended. The evidence is that’s now impossible in the US.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
A startling thought just occurred. What if the Labour Party in England *never* recovers? What if they are sliding into a Scottish-level extinction event? Where is England headed?
Could the English left-of-centre simply flip over to voting Green? It nearly happened in Germany.
They are at well over 30% in every poll. A long, long way from that day.
Jack McConnell’s Scottish Labour Party got 32% in 2007. Soon they were history.
That's as maybe. But there isn't an SNP in England.
Personally I could keep all county government, merge county and district/borough councils outside the big cities and just have town and parish councils below them. Albeit in the biggest counties there may be a few more unitaries to reflect the urban and rural split.
Currently there are too many layers of local government outside big cities. London for example has only 2 layers of local government, the London Assembly and the boroughs, Manchester and other big cities only have 1 city council.
In more rural counties though like Essex you mostly have 3 layers, county council, distrct/borough councils and town and parish councils
I see what you're saying and where you have active Town and Parish Councils it's a good idea but that isn't universally the case.
@NickPalmer would have more insight but you have Surrey County Council, Waverley District Council and Godalming Town Council in his patch. How well do the three work together? I don't know.
If there were to be a West Surrey Council and a Godalming Town Council, would that be better or easier?
Surrey and Waverley don't get on very well, partly because of party differences and partly because Surrey wanted to abolish Waverley. Waverley and Godalming get along splendidly, with a massive overlap of members.
Personally I think, leaving parties aside, that 2 levels is good and 3 is too many. As you say, town/parish councils are not all effective (and in many areas don't exist), and where they do they are understaffed and short of powers and their unpaid councillors knock themselves out to limited effect. County/borough feels about right.
Having regional mayors would certainly make a difference. Not sure it's a good idea - personalises politics more - but would create rival power bases to the centre, which doesn't seem a very Boris thing to do.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
The last two Christmases I've had a really awful cold, which may have been Covid-19. Hopefully it won't happen again this time.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
My father voted for Heath in 1970, Thorpe in 1974, (I think) Thatcher in 1979, the SDP-Liberal alliance in 1983 and 1987, Major in 1992, Blair in 1997 and 2001, and Lib Dem in 2005 until the present. I think that makes him the ultimate and literal centrist dad.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
You do know that I have actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965, excluding when I twice voted for Blair, and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present, as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
Though the time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
North Staffordshire .... errr.
I expect Boris did get the name of the constituency right, though
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
And yet you were well enough to post (regularly). Not exactly deaths door.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
With PR its highly possible they won't enter into coalition with anyone. The SNP would make demands that unionist parties would struggle to agree to - I expect they will be C&S at best.
Certainly the position for Labour in 2015 was that there wouldn't need to be an SNP deal - ultimately they wouldn't repeat 1979 and vote out a minority Labour government in favour of the Tories. So an informal C&S at best.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
My mother's four favourite politicians in her lifetime were, in no particular order, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Benn, Shirley Williams and Jim Sillars. God only knows what you've had made of my late mother.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
We’ve had the same thing this week. My breathing still hasn’t fully recovered on day 8 though my blood sats have returned to normal. My 1 yr old spent 34 of 36 hours in his cot with it. I’ve not had an illness like it before.
Indeed, my eldest - 15 - had the ‘worst cold of her life’ about 2 weeks ago. LFT negative. Yet deeply unwell. And not normal cold symptoms. Then her mum got it
We are now, I fear, sitting ducks for multiple viruses and bugs that have been waiting, some of them desperately, for us to finally let down our quarantine guards
I hope and trust your family and yourself improve. Likewise any PB-er feeling peculiar in this peculiar time
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
With PR its highly possible they won't enter into coalition with anyone. The SNP would make demands that unionist parties would struggle to agree to - I expect they will be C&S at best.
Certainly the position for Labour in 2015 was that there wouldn't need to be an SNP deal - ultimately they wouldn't repeat 1979 and vote out a minority Labour government in favour of the Tories. So an informal C&S at best.
Effectively the same, a weak government propped up by the SNP.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
With PR its highly possible they won't enter into coalition with anyone. The SNP would make demands that unionist parties would struggle to agree to - I expect they will be C&S at best.
Certainly the position for Labour in 2015 was that there wouldn't need to be an SNP deal - ultimately they wouldn't repeat 1979 and vote out a minority Labour government in favour of the Tories. So an informal C&S at best.
With PR the LDs would almost always be Kingmakers, the SNP and DUP only have a chance of being Kingmakers under FPTP
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
Another good anti FPTP argument is that we ended up with Boris leading a stonking majority despite a minority of the votes.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
My mother's four favourite politicians in her lifetime were, in no particular order, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Benn, Shirley Williams and Jim Sillars. God only knows what you've had made of my late mother.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
Another good anti FPTP argument is that we ended up with Boris leading a stonking majority despite a minority of the votes.
Boris is abysmal, Corbyn would have been catastrophic....we ended up with the lesser of two evils
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
This is the sort of authoritarian nonsense that would get me voting Labour
Most of the working class Redwall Tory 2019 voters however would support a hardline on drug dealers
I like it when I agree with one of your posts.
Lock the feckers up would be the prevailing view.
Yebbut, who makes drug dealership a viable business?
Seriously, I only do mushrooms these days where the entire supply chain is Mother Nature -> me. It is utterly irrational to demand life sentences with added torture for dealers, but regard consumers as slightly naughty but basically ultra cool fun lovers.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
We’ve had the same thing this week. My breathing still hasn’t fully recovered on day 8 though my blood sats have returned to normal. My 1 yr old spent 34 of 36 hours in his cot with it. I’ve not had an illness like it before.
Indeed, my eldest - 15 - had the ‘worst cold of her life’ about 2 weeks ago. LFT negative. Yet deeply unwell. And not normal cold symptoms. Then her mum got it
We are now, I fear, sitting ducks for multiple viruses and bugs that have been waiting, some of them desperately, for us to finally let down our quarantine guards
I hope and trust your family and yourself improve. Likewise any PB-er feeling peculiar in this peculiar time
I'm under the distinct impression that the LF tests under-read - as in can miss Covid and show a negative when the person is infected. Hence the need to back up LF tests with a full fat PCR.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
And yet you were well enough to post (regularly). Not exactly deaths door.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
We wouldn't have done because neither the SNP or LDs would have joined with Corbyn in charge.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
I voted Labour in 1997, LD in 2001 and 2005, Tory in 2010, Labour in 2015, Tory in 2017 and 2019.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
We’ve had the same thing this week. My breathing still hasn’t fully recovered on day 8 though my blood sats have returned to normal. My 1 yr old spent 34 of 36 hours in his cot with it. I’ve not had an illness like it before.
Indeed, my eldest - 15 - had the ‘worst cold of her life’ about 2 weeks ago. LFT negative. Yet deeply unwell. And not normal cold symptoms. Then her mum got it
We are now, I fear, sitting ducks for multiple viruses and bugs that have been waiting, some of them desperately, for us to finally let down our quarantine guards
I hope and trust your family and yourself improve. Likewise any PB-er feeling peculiar in this peculiar time
I'm under the distinct impression that the LF tests under-read - as in can miss Covid and show a negative when the person is infected. Hence the need to back up LF tests with a full fat PCR.
My daughter did 3 LF tests before one showed positive, though we are convinced she already had covid
She is recovering after 3 weeks fatigue and generally feeling lethargic but she is not 100% yet
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
And yet you were well enough to post (regularly). Not exactly deaths door.
Ah fuck off. Seriously. Fuck off and do one
For 48 hours I felt absolutely terrible. Really really shit. I was fairly convinced I had some kind of Covid - because it was all so strange and new and odd
And yet every three or six hours I would wake up and feel OK. And then - because I was ill and still in bed and unable to go to the pub 9 miles away, because I AM ENTIRELY ALONE IN A REMOTE COTTAGE - I came on PB and chatted with you guys, because you are funny and smart and clever albeit quite geeky (like me) and there is nearly always someone around to talk to.
It’s like waking up in a hospital ward full of quirky Cambridge Phds and superb racing tipsters and drunken computer experts happy to chat - it’s great. It is better than any ward.
I am grateful for that. I am grateful for PB being there. I am grateful to TSE and OGH and RCS and everyone else for providing this forum. It has kept me sane these last three days and I hope, if and when you ever get disquietingly ill - you too will be able to rely on this forum as a way of communicating, and of diluting your loneliness. Because that is what it has done for me. And if you do find yourself in that situation, I will be happy to chat to you, because this is what we do. We chat and we argue and somehow we help each other, as a weird by-product.
Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?
Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.
The LD's need radical, distinctive policies which sit outside the mainstream of the Culture War. Expect a speech on Raa Raa the Noisy Lion.
I know I have said it before, but it really is true and Lib Dem’s should seriously consider it. If Ed Davey had a celebrity affair with someone, people would remember his name and listen to him more.
Who should Ed have an affair with to best help the LibDem brand? Would Gemma Collins be a good match for younger voters? Joan Collins would suggest he can attract Conservatives?
Mummy Pig?
I think the script call for an extramarital affair with Mummy Pig that preferably leads to a new family member.
Peppa welcomes her little brother, Lib Dem Pig, could be a classic episode.
Davey Pig surely? With yellow spots.
Peppa Pig did come out in support for Gordon Browns Labour, so can’t complain about becoming a political football.
Is Peppa Pig related to Mr Blobby? Time was when he was the key pink TV star du jour.
Before my time, I had to google mr blobby. What the fuck did they invent that for? 😂
Nice try! First one obviously a pastiche of a public information film, I’m not falling for that it’s likely very recent made to look weird.
I don’t know what to make of the second one other than it made me feel sick.
You need to update your TV history hinterland, and perhaps snap judgement skills .
Both are childrens' TV series from 1975-1977 that ran in the teatime slot. The time that also gave us the Wombles, Ivor the Engine in colour and Paddington Bear. Core childhood territory for middle aged PBers.
Bod is unusual. Ludwig is surreal, and was based around Beethoven's Music - hence the opening Da-Da-Da-Dum.
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
We’ve had the same thing this week. My breathing still hasn’t fully recovered on day 8 though my blood sats have returned to normal. My 1 yr old spent 34 of 36 hours in his cot with it. I’ve not had an illness like it before.
Indeed, my eldest - 15 - had the ‘worst cold of her life’ about 2 weeks ago. LFT negative. Yet deeply unwell. And not normal cold symptoms. Then her mum got it
We are now, I fear, sitting ducks for multiple viruses and bugs that have been waiting, some of them desperately, for us to finally let down our quarantine guards
I hope and trust your family and yourself improve. Likewise any PB-er feeling peculiar in this peculiar time
I'm under the distinct impression that the LF tests under-read - as in can miss Covid and show a negative when the person is infected. Hence the need to back up LF tests with a full fat PCR.
There are lots of issues around both types of test, but in general, and assuming correct technique, lateral flow is less sensitive than PCR. This led to a lot of the epidemiologists not wanting them as they might miss too many positive cases. However they probably show quite well when infectious, and really have a lot going for them. The danger with PCR is over amplification. So traces of disease can read positive when the infection is over and the person no longer infectious.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
This is the sort of authoritarian nonsense that would get me voting Labour
Most of the working class Redwall Tory 2019 voters however would support a hardline on drug dealers
I like it when I agree with one of your posts.
Lock the feckers up would be the prevailing view.
Yebbut, who makes drug dealership a viable business?
Seriously, I only do mushrooms these days where the entire supply chain is Mother Nature -> me. It is utterly irrational to demand life sentences with added torture for dealers, but regard consumers as slightly naughty but basically ultra cool fun lovers.
I'd lock up the users too.
Especially the likes of Toby Young who boast about it.
The users are responsible for all of the death and mayhem in the supply chain. They need to face up to the consequences of their choices.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
We wouldn't have done because neither the SNP or LDs would have joined with Corbyn in charge.
Nor would many of the non-mad MPs. Remember that in 2010 the thing that really killed off the idea of the rainbow coalition was that many Labour MPs did not believe the party should continue. We would have seen the same reticence under Corbyn.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
We wouldn't have done because neither the SNP or LDs would have joined with Corbyn in charge.
So Corbyn stands down and McDonnell steps up which is even worse. At least Corbyn wasn't particularly competent
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
Another good anti FPTP argument is that we ended up with Boris leading a stonking majority despite a minority of the votes.
Boris is abysmal, Corbyn would have been catastrophic....we ended up with the lesser of two evils
Didn't vote for either. Worst possible choice for me. Both catastrophic IMO.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
I voted Labour in 1997, LD in 2001 and 2005, Tory in 2010, Labour in 2015, Tory in 2017 and 2019.
Close but you only voted for Blair once and did not vote Tory in 2015, so still not quite as big a swing voter as BigG
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
Another good anti FPTP argument is that we ended up with Boris leading a stonking majority despite a minority of the votes.
Boris is abysmal, Corbyn would have been catastrophic....we ended up with the lesser of two evils
Didn't vote for either. Worst possible choice for me. Both catastrophic IMO.
Havent voted for tory,labour or ld's since 2010 so we agree on that much
The future of British lithic sex toy carving is secured
You just had a cold. Anyone familiar with your hyperbolic panic about the slightest little thing should have known that from the outset.
I know you’re a boring, humourless, middle brow dickhead, just as i am a hyperbolic twat with a drama queen complex, and I imagine we probably agree on these diagnoses, but on this point I beg to differ.
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
And yet you were well enough to post (regularly). Not exactly deaths door.
Ah fuck off. Seriously. Fuck off and do one
For 48 hours I felt absolutely terrible. Really really shit. I was fairly convinced I had some kind of Covid - because it was all so strange and new and odd
And yet every three or six hours I would wake up and feel OK. And then - because I was ill and still in bed and unable to go to the pub 9 miles away, because I AM ENTIRELY ALONE IN A REMOTE COTTAGE - I came on PB and chatted with you guys, because you are funny and smart and clever albeit quite geeky (like me) and there is nearly always someone around to talk to.
It’s like waking up in a hospital ward full of quirky Cambridge Phds and superb racing tipsters and drunken computer experts happy to chat - it’s great. It is better than any ward.
I am grateful for that. I am grateful for PB being there. I am grateful to TSE and OGH and RCS and everyone else for providing this forum. It has kept me sane these last three days and I hope, if and when you ever get disquietingly ill - you too will be able to rely on this forum as a way of communicating, and of diluting your loneliness. Because that is what it has done for me. And if you do find yourself in that situation, I will be happy to chat to you, because this is what we do. We chat and we argue and somehow we help each other, as a weird by-product.
It is a good thing.
You are a star @Leon ; in all your drama queenery.
There's no way Labour will win again. Thatcher is too popular and Labour is split between hard-left and centrist. There's no way the Tories will ever form a government. Blair and Brown are too popular. The Right are completely split anyway over Europe. A new anti-EU party will ensure they are never elected. Labour will never win again as the Left are being 'left' behind, meaning Labour are only just ahead in the polls. Nothing can change in the next few years until the next election. Yeah?
Lib Dems will disappear as it's been over 5 years since they were in government. FIVE YEARS! Can anyone remember where they were even living then?!??
Starmer not visiting Shropshire is no mistake. A subtle LD-Labour agreement, a la Blair/Ashdown will emerge. I predict a hung parliament with Brown's offer of instant PR imposed, ensuring the Tories will never win again (see above).
They can go swivel with any instant change to the voting system. AV set the bar a constitutional change like that has to goto a referendum and it will get voted down. The voting system does not belong to parties or to parliament it belongs to us the people and if you want to change it you damn well better ask us if it is ok!
It was already offered by Brown without a referendum. Precedes AV. Unless the Supreme Court strikes it down (can't see why), a majority in the HoC, especially if it confers with manifestos (currently favoured by Green, LD, SNP and PC - was also favoured by Ukip), is entirely in line with the FPTP style of government. The ultimate in irony.
Don't care what brown offered, the av referendum sets a precedent. The voting system belongs to us not for parties to change because it gives them an advantage which is exactly what it is. You and your party only want to bring it in without referendum because you know where the electorate will tell you where to shove your preferred voting system,
I don't have a party. I'm a floating voter. Voted for multiple parties, based on what was best at the time. I'm confident though, a majority in parliament with PR in their manifestos would be unchallengeable, no matter what your preference. I also think PR would win. AV was struck down due to LD allying themselves with the Tories. Not because people liked minority rule.
If you are confident it will win then no reason not to ask people before changing it if they are ok with it then is there. Clue I am confident it will be shot down by about the same margin as AV
Which will change the moment campaigning starts and people realise it will mean a lot of labour led governments
And permanent coalitions.
Which will almost always include the SNP. Yeah campaign starts pr is dead in the water
What's wrong with that? SNP MPs are MPs too.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I was merely noting that there is an antipathy to what many see as a party devoted to regional advantage being too big a part of governing
You think the Conservative Party isn't devoted to regional advantage? Or the DUP? Both of which have or had rather a large part of governing of late. But only a gentle comment rather than wanting to start an argument. It's Saturday night, so night all.
It's just most pronounced for the SNP given their numbers, and how they would only ever consider backing one of the two parties. An effective argument for the anti-PR side.
It isn't just the SNP - the harsh reality is that no other party will work with the Tories. The absolute shafting of the DUP is not something that political opponents forget quickly.
lol, as if they would have worked with the Tories before that.
No, the SNP may not. My point is that NO party will work with the Tories, why pull out just the SNP?
Because of the number of their MPs, as I mentioned before. With PR it is highly likely they will always be in coalition government with Labour.
Another good anti pr argument is that in 2017 we would have ended up with a coalition headed by corbyn
In 2015 we would have ended up with Farage kingmaker under PR, with Cameron effectively Nige's puppet
Saw this earlier. Why only date up to July FFS? It’s December? A cynic would suggest the latest data is less skewed to the unvaccinated. It could just be the data is not available, but if so, why not. We are drowning in data.
I think there is only you me and Whispering Oracle gets it on here.
Majority view seems to be that people like SKS and YC are attractive to voters.
I think some Centrists are in for a shock
The issue there is that Labour needs (to win) to BOTH (a) be attractive to 30% of voters (so they actually tun out) and (b) be not alarming to 40% of voters. That gives a decent chance of getting to 40 without the Tories getting even more. Corbyn got (a) but not (b). Starmer has (b) but not (a). It remains possible that he can get to (a) by 2023.
I am an (a) and i will definitely be turning out
To vote anyone but Starmer
And by the way Corbyn got 40% in 2017 nearly all from (a) unfortunately there were plenty of (b)'s within Labour and even the PLP under Corbyn
Corbyn also got some from Remainers in b in 2017 who wanted to stop a hard Brexit, they went LD in 2019 leaving him with the Labour socialist core of 32%
Corbyn did not have a "socialist core" of 32%. Many voters who were repulsed by Johnson held their noses and voted Labour despite Corbyn. Had May or Cameron still been Con. leader that 32% would have been more like 23% or lower.
No. voters who were repulsed by Johnson but despised Corbyn voted LD or SNP in 2019, not Labour.
Why would I do that? The only way to unseat Alun Cairns was vote Labour.
If you wanted neither Boris or Corbyn to become PM obviously you would vote neither Tory nor Labour in 2019.
In 2019 the Labour vote was down 7.9% on 2017, the LD vote was up 4.2% on 2017 and the SNP vote was up 0.8% on 2017.
The Tory vote was up 1.2% in 2019 on 2017, so more 2017 Labour voters went LD than Tory in 2019 because of Corbyn and in Scotland the SNP vote rose while the SCon vote fell on 2017
Some would have voted Labour in an attempt to reduce Johnson's majority on the basis that a wings-clipped Johnson was optimal compared to what we now have.
No, such Remain voters voted Labour in 2017 on the assumption Corbyn would at least oppose a hard Brexit effectively or even campaign for Remain in an EUref2.
In 2019 they did not make that mistake again and most of them voted LD instead.
2019's Labour vote was the Corbynite Labor hardcore, 2017 saw a Labour vote inflated by votes lent by diehard Remainers who went LD in 2019 and are now mostly back voting Starmer Labour (albeit with some Corbynites from 2019 now voting Geen)
As I am neither the Corbynite hardcore nor a diehard Remainer my Labour vote must be something of an outlier then.
You were a Leaver not a Remainer and almost always vote Labour so effectively you count as Corbynite hardcore, neither Tory or centrist LD Remainer.
As you voted for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019 you are certainly Corbynite hardcore
You voted REMAIN in 2016. So you are not a real Tory.
No, plenty of Tories voted Remain, including the leader of the Tory party at the time of the 2016 referendum.
However like him I also accepted the result
Given that most Tories voted Leave in 2016, you are still not a proper Tory.
A proper Tory is someone who votes Tory at every general election.
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
I would just say that I am proud I am not a proper tory as it shows I can be persuaded by a good argument and am not just a blind follower
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Yes, well BigG we don't need to rehash my view that you are not a proper Tory, you are more One Nation Tory./LD/New Labour swing voter
You do know that I actively supported the party and voted for it ever since 1965 and have only voted labour twice under Blair and have never voted lib dems
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
The time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
You are still the closest thing we have to a genuine swing voter on here though BigG.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
I have voted conservative in elections since 1964 including 2019 so your theory is nonsense
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Given I doubt there is a single PBer who voted for Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher, Major, Blair and Tory since I think we can still safely say you are the closest thing we have to a PB swing voter having voted for Blair but for Boris in 2019
I voted Labour in 1997, LD in 2001 and 2005, Tory in 2010, Labour in 2015, Tory in 2017 and 2019.
So far, I've voted, in alphabetical order, Green, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and SSP. I almost moved to Ken Clarke's constituency under Cameron, where I would have considered Tory. No party loyalty. Whoever seems best for the times.
Comments
A Leaver who voted Labour in 2017 and Labour or Brexit Party in 2019 does not count as a proper Tory however
Look, I've explained my working to you. In the constituency I was in, the Lib Dems were clearly irrelevant- it was, and is, a Red/Blue marginal. It was also the sort of place where Labour can win and still be a long way from a majority. Which is why I voted the way I did.
Isn't "why don't you go and join the Tories?" the sort of thing that Jez's disciples were/are rightly pilloried for saying?
As I said to my dear lady this morning if I lived in North Staffs I would vote Lib Dem s in protest against Paterson and Boris's unacceptable behaviour and attempts to rig the process
Johnson faces trust crisis as sleaze shatters faith in MPs https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/04/johnson-faces-trust-crisis-as-sleaze-shatters-faith-in-mps?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
The fact you voted Corbyn means you would have been OK with a Corbyn government. Jez's disciples would have been fine with you then, it is those Labour MPs and supporters who went LD or CUK in 2019 or even Tory over Corbyn, anti Semitism etc who they despised
I was last there a couple of months ago with friends and you could see how their assumptions about how nice this country can get were being rewritten as we walked by the bathing stretch of the monnow next to Skenfrith castle and the ridiculous Italian pastiche church in Hoarwithy.
It’s the closest Britain gets to rural central France, basically.
The Associated Press
@AP
·
38m
Donald Trump’s new social media company and its special purpose acquisition company partner say investors have pledged $1 billion. The former president, who has been banned from Twitter, plans to launch a messaging app called "Truth Social."
However, as I said the other day I am pleased Boris is PM at present, as he is the only person standing against the crescendo of lockdown demands from the broadcasters, so called medical experts, and the labour party
Though the time will come when he is no longer PM and each day that seems to be getting closer
He couldn't even remember the North Staffordshire candidates name yesterday for goodness sake
Orthodox priest shouts 'Pope, you are a heretic' at Francis in Athens
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/orthodox-priest-shouts-pope-you-are-heretic-francis-athens-2021-12-04/
Personally I reckon he's annoyed about the Fourth Crusade.
Most PBers on here either voted Labour or LD or SNP in 2019 or voted Tory in 2019 as they always do, very few voted for Blair and have voted Tory since including for Boris in 2019 (Philip Thompson maybe the other exception but he is more libertarian than the average voter unlike you)
This was not a cold. No sneezing, no runny nose, no sore throat, no temperatures, it attacked my chest FIRST and then left me virtually comatose for 48 hours (I was literally awake for about 90 minutes out of 48 hours). No cold has ever done that. And yet flu - I have had flu - is considerably worse. Intense fevers. Etc
So what was it? I dunno. I feel like I am almost better after being bedridden 12 hours ago. Very strange
I wonder if we will encounter many of these strange ailments. We - as a species (especially in the rich world) have just gone thru an unprecedented experiment in quarantine and isolation. There will be peculiar consequences
This is the sort of authoritarian nonsense that would get me voting Labour
For a cultural/walking holiday, devoid of hideous mass tourism, it is hard to beat the Wye Valley and the Marches, anywhere in the world
Every 6-8 miles there is a genuinely fascinating church/castle/garden/stately home/view/ancient monument/Neolithic site - plus, usually, a beautiful pub
Shit, I just gone and ruined it. Oh well
The only two I voted Blair was 1997 and 2001
Lock the feckers up would be the prevailing view.
https://fallows.substack.com/p/fools-drunks-and-the-united-states
… Thus we have Democratic candidates for president winning the national vote in seven of the eight past elections—but appointing only three of the nine current members of the Supreme Court. Thus we have Senators representing less than one-third of the population blocking proposals supported by most of the public. Thus we have even worse failure-of-democracy structures in many state governments, for instance as laid out by political scientist David Pepper here. Thus we have the voting-restrictions and gerrymandering plans I needn’t detail but that we read about every day.
“Majority rule” should not inherently be a partisan issue, though the Republican party obviously now benefits from this imbalance—and may coldly believe that minority rule is the party’s main hope. For the country, it’s a question of governing viability. Democracies depend in the long term on democratic processes. The U.S. system is now structurally so anti-democratic that it survives only with something like public-spiritedness of all parties.
Which we can’t rely on…
At least we have a constitution that can be amended. The evidence is that’s now impossible in the US.
Standing on a windswept platform at the station - masks compulsory.
Standing in the crowded pub on the station - no mask required.
But there isn't an SNP in England.
Personally I think, leaving parties aside, that 2 levels is good and 3 is too many. As you say, town/parish councils are not all effective (and in many areas don't exist), and where they do they are understaffed and short of powers and their unpaid councillors knock themselves out to limited effect. County/borough feels about right.
Having regional mayors would certainly make a difference. Not sure it's a good idea - personalises politics more - but would create rival power bases to the centre, which doesn't seem a very Boris thing to do.
Especially the white-van drivers. But I guess most of them are users, rather than dealers.
I expect Boris did get the name of the constituency right, though
Certainly the position for Labour in 2015 was that there wouldn't need to be an SNP deal - ultimately they wouldn't repeat 1979 and vote out a minority Labour government in favour of the Tories. So an informal C&S at best.
God only knows what you've had made of my late mother.
We are now, I fear, sitting ducks for multiple viruses and bugs that have been waiting, some of them desperately, for us to finally let down our quarantine guards
I hope and trust your family and yourself improve. Likewise any PB-er feeling peculiar in this peculiar time
Seriously, I only do mushrooms these days where the entire supply chain is Mother Nature -> me. It is utterly irrational to demand life sentences with added torture for dealers, but regard consumers as slightly naughty but basically ultra cool fun lovers.
Statistically, the chances of them holding the balance of power would be reduced.
She is recovering after 3 weeks fatigue and generally feeling lethargic but she is not 100% yet
For 48 hours I felt absolutely terrible. Really really shit. I was fairly convinced I had some kind of Covid - because it was all so strange and new and odd
And yet every three or six hours I would wake up and feel OK. And then - because I was ill and still in bed and unable to go to the pub 9 miles away, because I AM ENTIRELY ALONE IN A REMOTE COTTAGE - I came on PB and chatted with you guys, because you are funny and smart and clever albeit quite geeky (like me) and there is nearly always someone around to talk to.
It’s like waking up in a hospital ward full of quirky Cambridge Phds and superb racing tipsters and drunken computer experts happy to chat - it’s great. It is better than any ward.
I am grateful for that. I am grateful for PB being there. I am grateful to TSE and OGH and RCS and everyone else for providing this forum. It has kept me sane these last three days and I hope, if and when you ever get disquietingly ill - you too will be able to rely on this forum as a way of communicating, and of diluting your loneliness. Because that is what it has done for me. And if you do find yourself in that situation, I will be happy to chat to you, because this is what we do. We chat and we argue and somehow we help each other, as a weird by-product.
It is a good thing.
Especially the likes of Toby Young who boast about it.
The users are responsible for all of the death and mayhem in the supply chain. They need to face up to the consequences of their choices.
SUNDAY TIMES: Doctors’ anger as unjabbed fill emergency beds
90% of those seriously ill needing specialist care are unvaxxed. (Up to July) 20-30% of critical care beds were for COVID, of which 75% are unvaxxed.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1467257888351698946?s=20
. . . the ridiculous Italian pastiche church in Hoarwithy. . . .
Was your grandfather by any chance headmaster at the local public school?
OR was he resident superintendent of moral deportment at a refuge for wayward farmers' daughters?