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France 2022: An update – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445

    Is this the Graphene Age?

    Not, I think yet. But time will tell.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    I'm not sure anything like *all* infections are included in the numbers. Most of my friends who got Covid (and posted their LFT test results to FB) have never taken a PCR or submitted their infection status anywhere official.
    Selection bias. Heve you considered that your friends are not normal? Most U.K. folk are VERY law abiding and rule obeyers. Hence the fury about others transgressing in lockdown.
    Your fourth sentence does not follow from your third.

    People I know, in the West of England, also keep their infection status to themselves and to those they think need to know.
    Huh? Most people who follow the rules get really annoyed by those who don’t. I don’t see what’s controversial about that?
    The fact that lots of people who don't follow the rules themselves also get really annoyed by other people who don’t, so sentence 3 is not a complete explanation of sentence 4. Fallacy of the undistributed middle.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,855
    edited December 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    TIMES: ⁦@RishiSunak plan to slash taxes #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1466887366497513476?s=20

    Somebody making a pitch for the top job? Vrroom vrrroom.

    F**k off on cutting Income Tax. Reverse the NI cut first.

    Cutting Income Tax while having NI higher just further reduces the taxes that are paid on unearned incomes, while further penalising those on earned incomes.
    Not a hope. They are obviously pampering southern houseowners and their middle aged soon to retire children. Look at the increase to IHT threshold being mooted.
    Point of information: Sweden, probably the most consistently left-of-centre country on the planet during the last 100 years, abolished inheritance tax in 2004. The parliamentary vote was unanimous and absolutely nobody is interested in reintroducing it.

    Inheritance tax has got to be the daftest tax still on the books. It serves no one well. Just scrap it.
    Indeed. It really penalises the middle well off and the poor in all sorts of ways - not least if you are not an Epping pensioner, or have nieces and nephews rather than children.

    That's very interesting about the Swedish position.
    I think the tories abolished it didn't they and GB reintroduced it in 1997, and rather surprised everyone by also reintroducing the 7 year loophole
    Wasn't it replaced by CTT and then the relevant CTT renamed IHT by previous admins?

    Wiki says:

    "Estate duty was abolished with the passage of the Finance Act 1975, which created the Capital Transfer Tax, with the following characteristics:

    It captured all transfers of value, not made at an arm's length basis, by which the transferor's estate was less in value after the disposition than it was before.[5]
    Value was generally defined as "the price which the property might reasonably be expected to fetch in the open market at that time; but that price shall not be assumed to be reduced on the ground that the whole property is to be placed on the market at one and the same time."[6]
    Transfers (in excess of specified limits, or not otherwise excluded) made during a person's lifetime were accumulated with tax assessed on a sliding scale on the total amount.[7]
    All transfers made at death or within three years before were taxable at a separate, higher sliding scale.[8]
    Where the transferor was domiciled in the United Kingdom, tax was chargeable on all subject property; otherwise, it was chargeable only on property situated in the UK.[9]

    CTT was reduced in scope during the Thatcher years, with most lifetime gifts removed by the Finance Act 1986. The tax was renamed as Inheritance Tax."

    But regardless of the precise dating, your post is very interesting as I hadn'tr realised that CTT had already replaced IHT - a commendable precedent that ought to be followed today.
  • Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    There was. But just imagine that journey with a donkey and a pair of leather sandals.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited December 2021

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    Must be mis remembering
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
    As I said, not a period I know much about. I'm not THAT old! Didn't do much History at school, either; we had the apparently irrevocable choice at 14 of science or arts, and history was an arts subject.
    Maybe I'll add reading up on that to my bucket list.
    Have you got a reference for that video, please?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    malcolmg said:

    It's a lemming in a teaspoon.

    Can anybody recommend a sauce?

    Please god no.

    I can tolerate that this blog rarely talks about political betting, because 98% of the time it is vaguely about politics, current affairs, society and culture, and 1% of the time about betting.

    Please find a “small mammal comedy” blog for your insta rejects.
    Unkind, a few mor enice pictures like that would beat a lot of the drivel written.
    It’s so cute❣️
    Did it leap on a dessert spoon because a Lemmings first instincts is to be part of a death cult?

    Picture if you will an archetypal cliff face - like the white cliffs of Dover, but not the white cliffs of Dover because it’s somewhere else. And there’s a huge pile of lemmings at the bottom of the cliff after throwing themselves off. Away in the distance another large tribe of lemmings racing towards the cliff. But at the very top of the cliff are just two lemmings, looking down. one says - bloody tides out.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    edited December 2021

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
    As I said, not a period I know much about. I'm not THAT old! Didn't do much History at school, either; we had the apparently irrevocable choice at 14 of science or arts, and history was an arts subject.
    Maybe I'll add reading up on that to my bucket list.
    Have you got a reference for that video, please?
    I don’t know much either. Just watched a YouTube video
    https://youtu.be/aq4G-7v-_xI

    The one on the same channel about Sparta’s economy and constitution was interesting too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    There was. But just imagine that journey with a donkey and a pair of leather sandals.
    Cornwall to Phoenicia in an open boat must have been quite a trip as well. Even allowing for coast-hugging.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,530

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
    Absolutely - no side is completely innocent. But there's nothing on the nationally organised scale we're seeing the States.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067
    edited December 2021
    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,919
    edited December 2021
    NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    Edit - 62 all out
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,079
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    On the French election; my approach has been to back both Zemmour and Le Pen at 10/1.

    So it is 5/1 that one them will a) get through to the final (very likely) and beat Macron (a greater than 20% possibility, in my view).

    Edit - it seems to me that there is more value in this approach than laying Macron at the current odds.

    I think a Le Pen victory over Macron is a very real possibility (certainly greater than a 20% chance, assuming Le Pen v Macron).

    But like Quincel, I don't think much of Zemmour's chances.

    Le Pen is an economic nationalist. I quite like her. I don't think she's a racist or a loon. I don't think her prescription (i.e. more state intervention to ensure business was doing the right thing) would do France much good, but she's a sincere woman, doing her bit for the downtrodden in France, and good for her.

    Zemmour, though, is just another boring bar room anti-Anglo Saxon French intellectual. He's like if Macron, De Gaulle, Chirac or Sarkozy chose to become detached from reality, and started making shit up, because the glory of France is so great that one can forgive everything in it's name.

    What does he offer someone whose job has been lost to globalisation or competition from Eastern Europe?

    Nothing.

    Let me put it another way: it is very lazy to assume that Le Pen and Zemmour are fishing in the same pool.
    Did you see his video? There was a line in there that stood out, he celebrated that French armies had conquered Europe and the world. He’s quite different. He might not win this time, but it’s what follows that bothers me. The fact you can say that you like Le Pen, leading a rebranded National Front, demonstrates how far the world has moved, Who’s to say it is not going to continue to move in that direction and Zemmour will win one day.
    I must say I had to twice check the name of the poster who just gave a relatively flattering description of Le Pen. Not because I think he’s wrong, I don’t follow it closely enough to have a view one way or the other. But because certainly five years ago it would have been gross unthink to have voiced it out loud, her winning being unimaginable to the chattering classes. That there Overton window is shifting for sure.
    We have a poster on here who gladly praises Franco.

    We have multiple, very loud, defenders of liberty, freedom and democracy on here who are perfectly relaxed to see them all attacked by the government they support.

    The new bill on police powers restricting and criminalising peaceful protest should be of much greater concern. Sooner or later Conservatives are going to want to protest.
    Yes, and in North Shropshire they have the perfect opportunity to do so.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445

    NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    All over now! NZ trail by 263.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067
    edited December 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
  • Dr. Foxy, tends to make me think of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing up in Ancient Egypt (the blue does go very well with gold).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20


    A North London intellectual snob. Hmm ; is that Boris Johnson, when he was living in Islington, paying effusive tribute in print to London's multiculturalism in order to be elected mayor, and getting paid by the BBC to swan off to Italy to make programmes about the make-up of the Roman Empire ?

    A couple of years later, on other hand, he was in the Commons ranting about a "Surrender Bill" and whipping up the far right, at the behest of Cummings. A Peter Sellers-like chameleon.
  • NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    All over now! NZ trail by 263.
    NZ only lasted 28.1 overs and scored 62

    Patel bowled 47.5 and conceded 119 for his 10 wickets
  • Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
    Absolutely - no side is completely innocent. But there's nothing on the nationally organised scale we're seeing the States.

    The key difference is that the individual concerned broke the law and was convicted. In countries such as the US, the UK, Hungary and Poland the right is actively legislating to change the law in a way that erodes democracy and freedom.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Surely CCHQ will now be preparing an ad this week saying vote Starmer and Peppa Pig gets it?

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    edited December 2021
    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    A North London intellectual snob - is that Boris Johnson, when he was living in Islington, paying effusive tribute to London's multiculturalism in print in order to be elected mayor of London, and getting paid by the BBC to swan off to Italy to make programmes about the make-up of the Roman Empire ?

    A couple of years later, then again, he was in the Commons ranting about a "Surrender Bill" and whipping up the far right. A man of elastic views.
    Boris can also do populist and likes Peppa Pig and Brexit unlike Starmer.

    Boris was also brought up mainly on Exmoor
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
  • HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019

    You're not a parent, are you HYUFD? :-D

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067
    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
    In your haste to gain half a smidgeon of party advantage you've missed the point; SKS said nothing about not liking Peppa herself; it's the 'World' he doesn't like.
    Same, I suspect, applies to Disneyworld and other theme parks.
    I quite enjoyed watching the TV with Youngest Grandchild, and watching her reactions; don't think I'd enjoy a 'World'.
  • HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
    Is "left of centre North" like North of North West?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
    I always thought so on Civ 3.
    Remember arguing this with the Head who was subbing, and had clearly prepared a class on the wheel being the most significant invention in history.
    He didn't like me pointing out MesoAmerica thrived without it. Shortly after I was blackballed for the prefect gig.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
    I hope you are chuckling over your posts and enjoying the reaction to them!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    First omicron case in my wife's hospital (someone with recent travel to South Africa). They have a PCR machine in the emergency department, everyone admitted gets tested. Then they send all positive cases to a local lab to be sequenced (this has been the procedure for quite a long time already). The idea is to be able to isolate people with different variants separately if they run out of space to isolate everyone individually. But every hospital is a bit different.

    So far as I know, this sequencing isn't being counted by the RKI, or anywhere nationally. But variants of concern should be notified to the state authorities - which is why you hear about omicron cases from Bundesland authorities. It's kind of mad after all this time that the national government doesn't really have a hold on what is going on.

    Anyway, let's see. So far the cases I hear about have mild symptoms (but different to typical symptoms of previous variants)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209
    edited December 2021
    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,855
    edited December 2021
    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    As OKC says, it's about PP World not Ms PP. There's the small matter of how much it costs to read a PP book (which might have come from the library, at least for now) versus how much it costs to have a day out at PP World.

    Also - the capital gain is true of anyone who bought a house in London before the recent growth in value. Can't very well blame SKS for that, unless you don't like donkeys.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Surely CCHQ will now be preparing an ad this week saying vote Starmer and Peppa Pig gets it?

    Let's hope so!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    edited December 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
    I always thought so on Civ 3.
    Remember arguing this with the Head who was subbing, and had clearly prepared a class on the wheel being the most significant invention in history.
    He didn't like me pointing out MesoAmerica thrived without it. Shortly after I was blackballed for the prefect gig.
    I remember finding somewhere that 'illiterate' Bronze and Iron Age coastal peoples worked out tide tables and required trainee sailors to memorise them. Early Polynesians did very well with rote-learning of star patterns, too.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Hoddie?

    A bricklayer on the side.

    Very Churchillian!
  • MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    In the other hand, Madame Gazelle, migrant working in a school, definitely Remain and some sort of lefty tactical voter.
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Haver you ever been to Peppa Pig World, HYUFD? Many parents have. They know it for rip-off prices, long queues and sub-standard attractions. If the Tories seriously want to attack Starmer for that then it will just emphasise their total lack of seriousness. Good!

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
    In your haste to gain half a smidgeon of party advantage you've missed the point; SKS said nothing about not liking Peppa herself; it's the 'World' he doesn't like.
    Same, I suspect, applies to Disneyworld and other theme parks.
    I quite enjoyed watching the TV with Youngest Grandchild, and watching her reactions; don't think I'd enjoy a 'World'.
    All of these ‘fun worlds’ are a living hell, and you don’t need to be a grandfather to know that.
  • GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,698
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I have been there a couple of times, when it was known as Paultons Park with Fox Jr and his grandparents. The go carts aren't too bad, but otherwise I am with SKS!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,855

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Haver you ever been to Peppa Pig World, HYUFD? Many parents have. They know it for rip-off prices, long queues and sub-standard attractions. If the Tories seriously want to attack Starmer for that then it will just emphasise their total lack of seriousness. Good!

    Also invites the memory, and indeed the repeat viewing of innumerable "Mr Johnson's idea of a serious speech to one of the most important groups in UK business" clips.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Northstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
    Why?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,530
    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:


    The new bill on police powers restricting and criminalising peaceful protest should be of much greater concern. Sooner or later Conservatives are going to want to protest.

    Yes, and in North Shropshire they have the perfect opportunity to do so.
    But then they'll be complicit in the assault on Peppa Pig, won't they? Oh, democratic choice is so HARD.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Hoddie?

    A bricklayer on the side.

    Very Churchillian!
    There was a very successful Essex bowler some years ago nicknamed 'Hoddie' because each winter he'd go back to the family building firm.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Quite often your posts are beyond parody. This nonetheless is a high ( or low?) point even for you.

    Strangely you have a hatful of supporters jumping on your bandwagon.

    Peppa Pig World could always sue Starmer, although that would continually remind us of the CBI speech.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,385
    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    The situation before vaccines was: ""horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the Covid victim. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of covid victims die."
    Sure. The public perception of risk has always been way off kilter. I recall a survey very early in the pandemic showing that those polled believed that 10% of the population had died from Covid. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with my original post or not?
    But that is a gross and obvious error, and if you are happy to deal in unquantified concepts like "tiny minority" you must accept that vaccines are beginning to look as if they are in marzipan dildo utility country.
    Someone liked this post. Out and out anti vax nonsense from a normally intelligent poster.
  • Northstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
    Why?
    My main memory of Peppa Pig World and the adjacent Paulton’s Park is spending time with my kids there, having fun. They grew up watching Peppa Pig - and were excited to go in that way that only kids can be.

    What does SKS find dreadful in that?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,023
    Good morning all. I'm in Bradford, on my way to get boosted. While I have an appointment, there is also a walk in facility set up in the main shopping mall offering flu and Covid jabs. A decent queue has formed.

    I shall report back later on which vax I get and any side effects.

    Also, decent level of mask compliance on the train and in the shops. 80% as an estimate. No enforcement.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    India are batting again.
  • India are batting again.

    2 day game probably not good for the BCCI
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    35m
    There really is an Ed Miliband 2012 feel abut Starmer's leadership at the moment. His supporters are convinced he's making progress. Everyone else thinks he's flatlining.

    ===

    Oink, Oink...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    Anyone with kids knows that parks targeted at children are overpriced, but they charge it because they can.
  • MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
  • Thread:

    While Alpha and Delta were 'pandemic variants', Omicron might become the first 'endemic variant' of many to come. ....

    .....I don't believe there's much we can do besides encouraging further uptake of vaccines / boosters globally to keep morbidity and mortality as low as possible over the coming months.
    4/


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1467082142677098496?s=20
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    edited December 2021

    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.

    The LD's need radical, distinctive policies which sit outside the mainstream of the Culture War.
    Expect a speech on Raa Raa the Noisy Lion.
  • tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    Anyone with kids knows that parks targeted at children are overpriced, but they charge it because they can.
    The latter suggests that they are priced correctly!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,853

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    The situation before vaccines was: ""horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the Covid victim. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of covid victims die."
    Sure. The public perception of risk has always been way off kilter. I recall a survey very early in the pandemic showing that those polled believed that 10% of the population had died from Covid. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with my original post or not?
    But that is a gross and obvious error, and if you are happy to deal in unquantified concepts like "tiny minority" you must accept that vaccines are beginning to look as if they are in marzipan dildo utility country.
    Someone liked this post. Out and out anti vax nonsense from a normally intelligent poster.
    Yes, I still don't understand why anyone is trying to make sense out of data from 22 cases, of which two had unknown vaccine status and all the ages are completely unknown and which vaccine they had is also completely unknown.

    Just a gentle reminder that AZ has got efficacy of ~50% and Pfizer of ~70% against Delta, we should expect for quite a lot of vaccination people to get Omicron, it's nothing to panic about.
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,582

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
    Would it be overly callous to talk about cooking the pulled pork?

  • Keith Kitten -v- Peppa Pig
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Google reviews with big samples. Peppa Pig world 4.7/5 Legoland 4.1/5
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
    My sister, who lives 50 miles from PPW, has been twice. She says it’s very good.
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
    Good morning

    If Starmer has said that then it is ill-judged and I agree with @HYUFD
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    edited December 2021

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
    Would it be overly callous to talk about cooking the pulled pork?

    So right. Avoid pork today. 😆

    But seriously, HYUFD isn’t being serious (surely) but it is a gaff, because it’s not true. Peppa Pig World is one of the most popular theme parks around, a favourite with children for sure.

    I don’t have kids, but those friends have them aren’t sure Peppa Pig is a good role model. One of my friends is convinced it’s teaching his daughter to rebel, that it’s subconsciously teaching kids anarchism and anti authority. That’s the opposite of what Boris said. Is it Boris has missed something?

    there’s science to pizza topping. Spicy Chicken needs some counterbalances and I have half a lemon left over from yesterday I can squeeze over the top.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    35m
    There really is an Ed Miliband 2012 feel abut Starmer's leadership at the moment. His supporters are convinced he's making progress. Everyone else thinks he's flatlining.

    ===

    Oink, Oink...
    He is making progress in that Labour is now not completely mad. I doubt there are many Jewish people seriously considering leaving the country because they don't think they will be safe if he become PM?

    So that's progress.

    But SKS himself is obviously a complete dud. He's just there to make Labour sane again and pave the way until someone better comes along.
  • HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Google reviews with big samples. Peppa Pig world 4.7/5 Legoland 4.1/5
    You mean Keir wasn’t instinctively and compellingly articulating a view that chimes with what ordinary people think?

    Colour me shocked!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    I very much hope that Peppa Pig runs against Johnson & Starmer for PM in G2 2024.

    She'd win easily, no?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209
    edited December 2021

    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
    Presumably she has swine flu ... or at least swine flew




  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,322
    I would presume that the some of the stuff that Macron has done to please the hard right - hijab bans etc - hasn't gone down well with Starmer.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
    Does she have a cervix Mr Starmer? Have you made any comment about the privatisation of hospital in Bath Mr Starmer?

    Did you call Peppa Pig a Surrealist hair dryer Prime Minister? Is such language appropriate Prime Minister?

    I could present Woman’s Hour 🙂
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,067
    edited December 2021

    I would presume that the some of the stuff that Macron has done to please the hard right - hijab bans etc - hasn't gone down well with Starmer.
    Macron was elected as a classical liberal but is becoming increasingly French nationalist to see off Le Pen and Zemmour.

    Starmer was and is a social democrat, neither a classical liberal nor a nationalist, if he was French he would be supporting Hidalgo as the Socialist Party candidate next year, not Macron and En Marche
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Looks like they don't like 'ordinary people's' entertainment at the Islington dinner parties.

    Keir continues to show he is out of touch with the general public.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,445
    dixiedean said:
    Australia has many of the spiders which are most likely to hurt you!
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Looks like they don't like 'ordinary people's' entertainment at the Islington dinner parties.

    Keir continues to show he is out of touch with the general public.
    Shoulda gone to Eton.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,855

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Looks like they don't like 'ordinary people's' entertainment at the Islington dinner parties.

    Keir continues to show he is out of touch with the general public.
    Bullingdon Club dinners are noted for the enthusiastic discussion of the latest PP volume.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    dixiedean said:

    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.

    The LD's need radical, distinctive policies which sit outside the mainstream of the Culture War.
    Expect a speech on Raa Raa the Noisy Lion.
    I know I have said it before, but it really is true and Lib Dem’s should seriously consider it. If Ed Davey had a celebrity affair with someone, people would remember his name and listen to him more.

    Who should Ed have an affair with to best help the LibDem brand? Would Gemma Collins be a good match for younger voters? Joan Collins would suggest he can attract Conservatives?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,582

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
    Would it be overly callous to talk about cooking the pulled pork?

    So right. Avoid pork today. 😆

    But seriously, HYUFD isn’t being serious (surely) but it is a gaff, because it’s not true. Peppa Pig World is one of the most popular theme parks around, a favourite with children for sure.

    I don’t have kids, but those friends have them aren’t sure Peppa Pig is a good role model. One of my friends is convinced it’s teaching his daughter to rebel, that it’s subconsciously teaching kids anarchism and anti authority. That’s the opposite of what Boris said. Is it Boris has missed something?

    there’s science to pizza topping. Spicy Chicken needs some counterbalances and I have half a lemon left over from yesterday I can squeeze over the top.
    Starmer is just building up to his big announcement - telling kids "there ain't no Santa Clause...."

    It's his new reality-based politics.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
    Good morning

    If Starmer has said that then it is ill-judged and I agree with @HYUFD
    On no. Don’t go there Big G - you are so much more smarter than that. Starmer is only saying it to keep the Peppa Pig thing going.

    I,don’t want to, I got to say it to you now also 😕

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    dixiedean said:

    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.

    The LD's need radical, distinctive policies which sit outside the mainstream of the Culture War.
    Expect a speech on Raa Raa the Noisy Lion.
    I know I have said it before, but it really is true and Lib Dem’s should seriously consider it. If Ed Davey had a celebrity affair with someone, people would remember his name and listen to him more.

    Who should Ed have an affair with to best help the LibDem brand? Would Gemma Collins be a good match for younger voters? Joan Collins would suggest he can attract Conservatives?
    Mummy Pig?

    I think the script call for an extramarital affair with Mummy Pig that preferably leads to a new family member.

    Peppa welcomes her little brother, Lib Dem Pig, could be a classic episode.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,523

    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.

    I'm trying to remember Harold Wilson and Alec Douglas-Home arguing it out over the relative merits of Willum, Bill and Ben and the Woodentops.

    How many seats will the SNP gain if SKS goes on the offensive against Balamory? What happens to the pink vote if he objects to Teletubbies?

This discussion has been closed.