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France 2022: An update – politicalbetting.com

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,581

    ydoethur said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    On the French election; my approach has been to back both Zemmour and Le Pen at 10/1.

    So it is 5/1 that one them will a) get through to the final (very likely) and beat Macron (a greater than 20% possibility, in my view).

    Edit - it seems to me that there is more value in this approach than laying Macron at the current odds.

    I think a Le Pen victory over Macron is a very real possibility (certainly greater than a 20% chance, assuming Le Pen v Macron).

    But like Quincel, I don't think much of Zemmour's chances.

    Le Pen is an economic nationalist. I quite like her. I don't think she's a racist or a loon. I don't think her prescription (i.e. more state intervention to ensure business was doing the right thing) would do France much good, but she's a sincere woman, doing her bit for the downtrodden in France, and good for her.

    Zemmour, though, is just another boring bar room anti-Anglo Saxon French intellectual. He's like if Macron, De Gaulle, Chirac or Sarkozy chose to become detached from reality, and started making shit up, because the glory of France is so great that one can forgive everything in it's name.

    What does he offer someone whose job has been lost to globalisation or competition from Eastern Europe?

    Nothing.

    Let me put it another way: it is very lazy to assume that Le Pen and Zemmour are fishing in the same pool.
    Did you see his video? There was a line in there that stood out, he celebrated that French armies had conquered Europe and the world. He’s quite different. He might not win this time, but it’s what follows that bothers me. The fact you can say that you like Le Pen, leading a rebranded National Front, demonstrates how far the world has moved, Who’s to say it is not going to continue to move in that direction and Zemmour will win one day.
    I must say I had to twice check the name of the poster who just gave a relatively flattering description of Le Pen. Not because I think he’s wrong, I don’t follow it closely enough to have a view one way or the other. But because certainly five years ago it would have been gross unthink to have voiced it out loud, her winning being unimaginable to the chattering classes. That there Overton window is shifting for sure.
    I think you'll find that I've written a lot about Le Pen over the years.

    And while I'm sure my views have shifted (if they had not, I would either not be human or be deluding myself), I think you'll find I've always thought her to be very different to her father.

    She's a nationalist, not a racist. She's also a woman who thinks too highly of the state's powers to do good (which has led to rather unfortunate recent pro-EU moves).

    If she became President, she would attempt to run France's industrial policy herself. She would direct what factories were built where, and what the right system of power generation is, etc.

    That is a recipe for disaster.
    I don’t doubt any of that and I don’t intend it as a criticism. It’s just interesting that Le Pen winning is no longer seen by many as some sort of Petain retread, which I’m sure it widely was say 10 years ago. And makes it that much more likely that this time (or the time after) she might win.
    She might very well win.

    Sadly, her principle idea is that the French state is insufficiently involved in making economic decisions on behalf of her citizens.
    I don’t know her platform. But I would definitely support more active involvement by the state in improving national strategic resilience, if necessary through direct ownership of parts of industry and the supply chain. Perhaps this is not the same thing as she is planning. Is she at least going to take France out the euro if she wins (even if she denies it now)?
    She has given speeches about how the EU should be a club of Christian countries standing up against the Islamic East.

    She had never really believed that France should leave the Euro. Her only concern is if Euro membership would prevent her from following a corbyn-esque interventionist economic policy.
    I dunno. Sounds pretty racist to me.
    Many in France have never forgiven the mulslims in Algeria for kicking them out. I think Le Pen and Zemmour are both playing to that constituency. One of the few good reasons for leaving the EU is that the French are gradually going nuts.
    The French spent most of the period from 1788 to 1916 going nuts.

    They got through it somehow....
    Are you familiar with James Barr’s a line in the sand? The 1916 reference seems very precise for France getting over their Nuts period.
    I'd have extended it to 1917 - the year of the mutinies under Nivelle, till Petain took over and introduced a little common sense.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    TIMES: ⁦@RishiSunak plan to slash taxes #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1466887366497513476?s=20

    Somebody making a pitch for the top job? Vrroom vrrroom.

    F**k off on cutting Income Tax. Reverse the NI cut first.

    Cutting Income Tax while having NI higher just further reduces the taxes that are paid on unearned incomes, while further penalising those on earned incomes.
    Not a hope. They are obviously pampering southern houseowners and their middle aged soon to retire children. Look at the increase to IHT threshold being mooted.
    Point of information: Sweden, probably the most consistently left-of-centre country on the planet during the last 100 years, abolished inheritance tax in 2004. The parliamentary vote was unanimous and absolutely nobody is interested in reintroducing it.

    Inheritance tax has got to be the daftest tax still on the books. It serves no one well. Just scrap it.
    Indeed. It really penalises the middle well off and the poor in all sorts of ways - not least if you are not an Epping pensioner, or have nieces and nephews rather than children.

    That's very interesting about the Swedish position.
    I think the tories abolished it didn't they and GB reintroduced it in 1997, and rather surprised everyone by also reintroducing the 7 year loophole
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2021
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    On the French election; my approach has been to back both Zemmour and Le Pen at 10/1.

    So it is 5/1 that one them will a) get through to the final (very likely) and beat Macron (a greater than 20% possibility, in my view).

    Edit - it seems to me that there is more value in this approach than laying Macron at the current odds.

    I think a Le Pen victory over Macron is a very real possibility (certainly greater than a 20% chance, assuming Le Pen v Macron).

    But like Quincel, I don't think much of Zemmour's chances.

    Le Pen is an economic nationalist. I quite like her. I don't think she's a racist or a loon. I don't think her prescription (i.e. more state intervention to ensure business was doing the right thing) would do France much good, but she's a sincere woman, doing her bit for the downtrodden in France, and good for her.

    Zemmour, though, is just another boring bar room anti-Anglo Saxon French intellectual. He's like if Macron, De Gaulle, Chirac or Sarkozy chose to become detached from reality, and started making shit up, because the glory of France is so great that one can forgive everything in it's name.

    What does he offer someone whose job has been lost to globalisation or competition from Eastern Europe?

    Nothing.

    Let me put it another way: it is very lazy to assume that Le Pen and Zemmour are fishing in the same pool.
    Did you see his video? There was a line in there that stood out, he celebrated that French armies had conquered Europe and the world. He’s quite different. He might not win this time, but it’s what follows that bothers me. The fact you can say that you like Le Pen, leading a rebranded National Front, demonstrates how far the world has moved, Who’s to say it is not going to continue to move in that direction and Zemmour will win one day.
    I must say I had to twice check the name of the poster who just gave a relatively flattering description of Le Pen. Not because I think he’s wrong, I don’t follow it closely enough to have a view one way or the other. But because certainly five years ago it would have been gross unthink to have voiced it out loud, her winning being unimaginable to the chattering classes. That there Overton window is shifting for sure.
    We have a poster on here who gladly praises Franco.

    We have multiple, very loud, defenders of liberty, freedom and democracy on here who are perfectly relaxed to see them all attacked by the government they support.

    The new bill on police powers restricting and criminalising peaceful protest should be of much greater concern. Sooner or later Conservatives are going to want to protest.
    Yes. If even the anti-vaxxers, further to the right, also make the connection, there might also be further pushback. So far they seem completely unaware of the politics of collective protest, while focusing on individual liberty in their mass protests.

    It's very worrying, and if even Theresa May is worried about a carte blanche against whatever the authorities choose to label as "disruptive" on the day, you know we have a big problem.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited December 2021

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    According to a quick search; bronze is easier to cast than copper, makes a harder blade, and is more resistant to corrosion.
    Pure copper is certainly bendy af, look at those bracelets

    ETA it's one of those irritating false mnemonics: you would hope bronZe had Zinc in it, but that's actually brass
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,318

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
  • Options
    Is this the Graphene Age?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    malcolmg said:

    *Betting Post *racing post *partially on topic post as involves French runner

    Paging @Stodge @Malky the Super Stud @Topping @Kinny and @anyone who wants to join in PBs Stud Club and talk racing tips

    I did tip a 18-1 hurdle winner last week (sort of, as we now know other outcomes than winning and losing) but Malky is the PB-er Stud Club ‘Super Stud’ at the moment 😍contesting our suggestions with his own - and they all go and win!

    sensible weather this Saturday, breezy with scattered showers here in south, more showers up North.

    There are some big chases at Sandown and Aintree, and a Welsh National dress rehearsal at Chepstow. And I havn’t a clue who is going to win any of those races, though I can’t wait to watch them.

    instead I am sticking to hurdles

    1:30 Aintree - Malakahna (NAP)
    Sandown 15:35 - Samarrive (nb)

    After fun with my not so sleepy long shot last week, I’m going to make case for another long shot.

    1:02 Wetherby - Flexi Furlough (long shot)

    She has only won once and it was a bumper. Has never raced this extra for 3m distance before. Has been in a competitive finish at 2m 5f. In fact nearly always competitive and ground suits her.

    I played back my 18-1 winner in slow mo on my pad, and I think they were generous to dead heat as it kept looking to me other horse won.

    Guys, I am busy today so no time to really look at horses, on a 5 minute look I have done a small yankee just for an interest. No great thought behind it so would not recommend it.

    White Pepper11/8 13:30 Aintree
    Tamar Bridge9/4 15:15 Aintree
    Grange Road7/4 11: 38 Chepstow
    Take Your Time7/4 12:47 Chepstow

    Good luck to everyone.
    Thanks Malky. Best of luck with the Yankee/lucky15 🙂 White Pepper should spice things up a bit, and is great alternate shout with what I went with.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,581

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    I'm not sure anything like *all* infections are included in the numbers. Most of my friends who got Covid (and posted their LFT test results to FB) have never taken a PCR or submitted their infection status anywhere official.
    Selection bias. Heve you considered that your friends are not normal? Most U.K. folk are VERY law abiding and rule obeyers. Hence the fury about others transgressing in lockdown.
    Your fourth sentence does not follow from your third.

    People I know, in the West of England, also keep their infection status to themselves and to those they think need to know.
    Huh? Most people who follow the rules get really annoyed by those who don’t. I don’t see what’s controversial about that?
    I'd have thought there is real utility in knowing whether one has had covid or than some other bug. For example, it is germane to one's decisions as to what to do (e.g. 3 x vax plus covid makes one feel a bit safer). And one's housemates and associates might be quite glad to know.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914

    Is this the Graphene Age?

    Not, I think yet. But time will tell.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    I'm not sure anything like *all* infections are included in the numbers. Most of my friends who got Covid (and posted their LFT test results to FB) have never taken a PCR or submitted their infection status anywhere official.
    Selection bias. Heve you considered that your friends are not normal? Most U.K. folk are VERY law abiding and rule obeyers. Hence the fury about others transgressing in lockdown.
    Your fourth sentence does not follow from your third.

    People I know, in the West of England, also keep their infection status to themselves and to those they think need to know.
    Huh? Most people who follow the rules get really annoyed by those who don’t. I don’t see what’s controversial about that?
    The fact that lots of people who don't follow the rules themselves also get really annoyed by other people who don’t, so sentence 3 is not a complete explanation of sentence 4. Fallacy of the undistributed middle.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,581
    edited December 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    TIMES: ⁦@RishiSunak plan to slash taxes #TomorrowsPapersToday

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1466887366497513476?s=20

    Somebody making a pitch for the top job? Vrroom vrrroom.

    F**k off on cutting Income Tax. Reverse the NI cut first.

    Cutting Income Tax while having NI higher just further reduces the taxes that are paid on unearned incomes, while further penalising those on earned incomes.
    Not a hope. They are obviously pampering southern houseowners and their middle aged soon to retire children. Look at the increase to IHT threshold being mooted.
    Point of information: Sweden, probably the most consistently left-of-centre country on the planet during the last 100 years, abolished inheritance tax in 2004. The parliamentary vote was unanimous and absolutely nobody is interested in reintroducing it.

    Inheritance tax has got to be the daftest tax still on the books. It serves no one well. Just scrap it.
    Indeed. It really penalises the middle well off and the poor in all sorts of ways - not least if you are not an Epping pensioner, or have nieces and nephews rather than children.

    That's very interesting about the Swedish position.
    I think the tories abolished it didn't they and GB reintroduced it in 1997, and rather surprised everyone by also reintroducing the 7 year loophole
    Wasn't it replaced by CTT and then the relevant CTT renamed IHT by previous admins?

    Wiki says:

    "Estate duty was abolished with the passage of the Finance Act 1975, which created the Capital Transfer Tax, with the following characteristics:

    It captured all transfers of value, not made at an arm's length basis, by which the transferor's estate was less in value after the disposition than it was before.[5]
    Value was generally defined as "the price which the property might reasonably be expected to fetch in the open market at that time; but that price shall not be assumed to be reduced on the ground that the whole property is to be placed on the market at one and the same time."[6]
    Transfers (in excess of specified limits, or not otherwise excluded) made during a person's lifetime were accumulated with tax assessed on a sliding scale on the total amount.[7]
    All transfers made at death or within three years before were taxable at a separate, higher sliding scale.[8]
    Where the transferor was domiciled in the United Kingdom, tax was chargeable on all subject property; otherwise, it was chargeable only on property situated in the UK.[9]

    CTT was reduced in scope during the Thatcher years, with most lifetime gifts removed by the Finance Act 1986. The tax was renamed as Inheritance Tax."

    But regardless of the precise dating, your post is very interesting as I hadn'tr realised that CTT had already replaced IHT - a commendable precedent that ought to be followed today.
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    There was. But just imagine that journey with a donkey and a pair of leather sandals.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited December 2021

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    Must be mis remembering
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
    As I said, not a period I know much about. I'm not THAT old! Didn't do much History at school, either; we had the apparently irrevocable choice at 14 of science or arts, and history was an arts subject.
    Maybe I'll add reading up on that to my bucket list.
    Have you got a reference for that video, please?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    malcolmg said:

    It's a lemming in a teaspoon.

    Can anybody recommend a sauce?

    Please god no.

    I can tolerate that this blog rarely talks about political betting, because 98% of the time it is vaguely about politics, current affairs, society and culture, and 1% of the time about betting.

    Please find a “small mammal comedy” blog for your insta rejects.
    Unkind, a few mor enice pictures like that would beat a lot of the drivel written.
    It’s so cute❣️
    Did it leap on a dessert spoon because a Lemmings first instincts is to be part of a death cult?

    Picture if you will an archetypal cliff face - like the white cliffs of Dover, but not the white cliffs of Dover because it’s somewhere else. And there’s a huge pile of lemmings at the bottom of the cliff after throwing themselves off. Away in the distance another large tribe of lemmings racing towards the cliff. But at the very top of the cliff are just two lemmings, looking down. one says - bloody tides out.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243
    edited December 2021

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    The video I watched reckoned the incursions by The Boat People led to a vicious cycle in the breakdown in Mediterranean trade, most notably tin, with only the Egypt of Rameses III able to weather the storm. With that effort marking the start of the long decline in Egypt’s power. All coming hot on the heels of drought/crop failures and several decades of earthquakes weakening the Mycenae and Hittites. Personally I don’t think Western Civilisation is in too robust a place right now if there was a further extraneous event on top of covid.
    Presumably, and it's not a period I know much about, the Boat/Sea People were driven by conditions back on the land..... drought/crop failures etc. AIUI we're also unsure about 'why' the Vikings...... doesn't appear to be crop failures ..... possibly over-population or simply easier/more exciting to steal stuff than grow it!
    According to hieroglyph records, they apparently came with families and livestock, suggesting it was push rather than pull due to climate. Then again, pretty punchy for a bunch of Sardinian and Sicilian peasants to see the glory of the Nile delta and think “yeah that looks a nice spot to settle, let’s get these locals out the way first”. History’s first Vikings perhaps as you say.
    As I said, not a period I know much about. I'm not THAT old! Didn't do much History at school, either; we had the apparently irrevocable choice at 14 of science or arts, and history was an arts subject.
    Maybe I'll add reading up on that to my bucket list.
    Have you got a reference for that video, please?
    I don’t know much either. Just watched a YouTube video
    https://youtu.be/aq4G-7v-_xI

    The one on the same channel about Sparta’s economy and constitution was interesting too.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    There was. But just imagine that journey with a donkey and a pair of leather sandals.
    Cornwall to Phoenicia in an open boat must have been quite a trip as well. Even allowing for coast-hugging.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,318

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
    Absolutely - no side is completely innocent. But there's nothing on the nationally organised scale we're seeing the States.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    edited December 2021
    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,186
    edited December 2021
    NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    Edit - 62 all out
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,198
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    On the French election; my approach has been to back both Zemmour and Le Pen at 10/1.

    So it is 5/1 that one them will a) get through to the final (very likely) and beat Macron (a greater than 20% possibility, in my view).

    Edit - it seems to me that there is more value in this approach than laying Macron at the current odds.

    I think a Le Pen victory over Macron is a very real possibility (certainly greater than a 20% chance, assuming Le Pen v Macron).

    But like Quincel, I don't think much of Zemmour's chances.

    Le Pen is an economic nationalist. I quite like her. I don't think she's a racist or a loon. I don't think her prescription (i.e. more state intervention to ensure business was doing the right thing) would do France much good, but she's a sincere woman, doing her bit for the downtrodden in France, and good for her.

    Zemmour, though, is just another boring bar room anti-Anglo Saxon French intellectual. He's like if Macron, De Gaulle, Chirac or Sarkozy chose to become detached from reality, and started making shit up, because the glory of France is so great that one can forgive everything in it's name.

    What does he offer someone whose job has been lost to globalisation or competition from Eastern Europe?

    Nothing.

    Let me put it another way: it is very lazy to assume that Le Pen and Zemmour are fishing in the same pool.
    Did you see his video? There was a line in there that stood out, he celebrated that French armies had conquered Europe and the world. He’s quite different. He might not win this time, but it’s what follows that bothers me. The fact you can say that you like Le Pen, leading a rebranded National Front, demonstrates how far the world has moved, Who’s to say it is not going to continue to move in that direction and Zemmour will win one day.
    I must say I had to twice check the name of the poster who just gave a relatively flattering description of Le Pen. Not because I think he’s wrong, I don’t follow it closely enough to have a view one way or the other. But because certainly five years ago it would have been gross unthink to have voiced it out loud, her winning being unimaginable to the chattering classes. That there Overton window is shifting for sure.
    We have a poster on here who gladly praises Franco.

    We have multiple, very loud, defenders of liberty, freedom and democracy on here who are perfectly relaxed to see them all attacked by the government they support.

    The new bill on police powers restricting and criminalising peaceful protest should be of much greater concern. Sooner or later Conservatives are going to want to protest.
    Yes, and in North Shropshire they have the perfect opportunity to do so.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914

    NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    All over now! NZ trail by 263.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    edited December 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
  • Options
    Dr. Foxy, tends to make me think of lapis lazuli from Afghanistan showing up in Ancient Egypt (the blue does go very well with gold).
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20


    A North London intellectual snob. Hmm ; is that Boris Johnson, when he was living in Islington, paying effusive tribute in print to London's multiculturalism in order to be elected mayor, and getting paid by the BBC to swan off to Italy to make programmes about the make-up of the Roman Empire ?

    A couple of years later, on other hand, he was in the Commons ranting about a "Surrender Bill" and whipping up the far right, at the behest of Cummings. A Peter Sellers-like chameleon.
  • Options

    NZ 62/9. Ajaz Patel now batting. Need 64 more to avoid follow on.

    All over now! NZ trail by 263.
    NZ only lasted 28.1 overs and scored 62

    Patel bowled 47.5 and conceded 119 for his 10 wickets
  • Options

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    Yes, it reflects the football crowd mentality of much of politics - things our side do may be regrettable but they're still our guys, and sneering at the other side takes precedence. The belief in freedom of expression and fair elections is seen by many as an abstract concept which they take for granted without applying it to anything that's actually happening.

    That applies to the left as well, and I do recognise that we need to rein in the cancel culture stuff. But in the anglosphere, very few on the left have actually thought about conspiring to subvert the electoral process, which is overtly accepted by many Republicans in the US and I think not entirely absent over here.

    But if you start to get to the point where the other side thinks it is being literally prevented from winning elections by unfair means, then they start looking around for non-democratic ways of opposition. Suppose Trump had succeeded in overturning Biden's election. Would it have been unnatural for opponents to start looking at organising riots, carrying arms, etc.?
    There has been at least one high profile left winger in the UK who subverted the electoral process: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648
    Absolutely - no side is completely innocent. But there's nothing on the nationally organised scale we're seeing the States.

    The key difference is that the individual concerned broke the law and was convicted. In countries such as the US, the UK, Hungary and Poland the right is actively legislating to change the law in a way that erodes democracy and freedom.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Surely CCHQ will now be preparing an ad this week saying vote Starmer and Peppa Pig gets it?

  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929
    edited December 2021
    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    A North London intellectual snob - is that Boris Johnson, when he was living in Islington, paying effusive tribute to London's multiculturalism in print in order to be elected mayor of London, and getting paid by the BBC to swan off to Italy to make programmes about the make-up of the Roman Empire ?

    A couple of years later, then again, he was in the Commons ranting about a "Surrender Bill" and whipping up the far right. A man of elastic views.
    Boris can also do populist and likes Peppa Pig and Brexit unlike Starmer.

    Boris was also brought up mainly on Exmoor
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,789
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
  • Options
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019

    You're not a parent, are you HYUFD? :-D

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
    In your haste to gain half a smidgeon of party advantage you've missed the point; SKS said nothing about not liking Peppa herself; it's the 'World' he doesn't like.
    Same, I suspect, applies to Disneyworld and other theme parks.
    I quite enjoyed watching the TV with Youngest Grandchild, and watching her reactions; don't think I'd enjoy a 'World'.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
    Is "left of centre North" like North of North West?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
    I always thought so on Civ 3.
    Remember arguing this with the Head who was subbing, and had clearly prepared a class on the wheel being the most significant invention in history.
    He didn't like me pointing out MesoAmerica thrived without it. Shortly after I was blackballed for the prefect gig.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hang on. Is Peppa Pig the authentic marker of working class identity now?

    Not just working class, Peppa Pig is popular with virtually all parents bar it seems left of centre North London intellectuals
    I hope you are chuckling over your posts and enjoying the reaction to them!
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,227
    First omicron case in my wife's hospital (someone with recent travel to South Africa). They have a PCR machine in the emergency department, everyone admitted gets tested. Then they send all positive cases to a local lab to be sequenced (this has been the procedure for quite a long time already). The idea is to be able to isolate people with different variants separately if they run out of space to isolate everyone individually. But every hospital is a bit different.

    So far as I know, this sequencing isn't being counted by the RKI, or anywhere nationally. But variants of concern should be notified to the state authorities - which is why you hear about omicron cases from Bundesland authorities. It's kind of mad after all this time that the national government doesn't really have a hold on what is going on.

    Anyway, let's see. So far the cases I hear about have mild symptoms (but different to typical symptoms of previous variants)
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,380
    edited December 2021
    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,581
    edited December 2021
    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    As OKC says, it's about PP World not Ms PP. There's the small matter of how much it costs to read a PP book (which might have come from the library, at least for now) versus how much it costs to have a day out at PP World.

    Also - the capital gain is true of anyone who bought a house in London before the recent growth in value. Can't very well blame SKS for that, unless you don't like donkeys.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,898
    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Surely CCHQ will now be preparing an ad this week saying vote Starmer and Peppa Pig gets it?

    Let's hope so!
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    edited December 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are intelligent, fairly serious republicans that go along with Trump because he is a winner. I don’t understand that either. I appreciate that you want to retain your seat, but associating with someone who incited a mob to storm the Capitol at the very least seems risky. They seem to think they can control him and ride the coat tails of a movement that wants to see the world burn.

    The conservative militarists in 30's Germany thought they could control Hitler. That didn't well.
    Trump was the first President in 40 years not to launch a new foreign war. Bandying about Hitler is not a particularly insightful comparison to make and is almost certainly counter productive in winning round Trump voters to your pov.
    OK.

    Obama inherited US military presences in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, you can say that he also ordered drone strikes in Libya, Yemen and Somalia (plus sending helicopters into Pakistan), I didn't notice him launching a new foreign war. Plus, if you're going to say that Trump didn't initiate any, you also have to account for the fact that the number of foreign drone strikes per year were basically unchanged. Only under Biden has the US taken a step back from bombing others,

    Bush (W) - certainly did initiate wars. But prior to the US being actually attacked in 2001, I don't remember the US actually initiating any.

    Clinton. The Balkans. But was that actually a war?

    Bush (HW) - Iraq. But... the again, the US didn't exactly start that either,
    As I understand it Trump not starting a war had more to do with the chiefs of staff rather than Trump’s judgement.

    Trump did not start a war, but controls a Republican party that has all but rejected democracy and embraced violence as a means to secure the outcomes it wants.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/03/republican-party-democracy-political-violence-trumpism

    Across what was once called the Free World, governments and parties of the right are dismantling the democracies, the liberties and freedoms they claim so loudly to believe in. You see it in the US, the UK, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, India, Brazil and so on. It's terrifying, quite frankly. But even more terrifying is that they are doing it with the acquiescence of so many.

    I was watching a video yesterday about the great Bronze Age collapse. As you do. Numerous seemingly strong Mediterranean civilisations all withering away inside a human lifetime.

    What we have is a very fragile thing indeed, arguably even more so than for the ancients, because interconnectedness brings vulnerability as well as wealth and our interconnectedness is beyond compare.

    Which is why I would relegate levelling up behind strategic resilience in my policy agenda. Making sure that the light of reason survives the 21st century in a thriving state should be our very highest priority.
    'Went' to a Zoom recently where the speaker argued that the use of iron in war equipment at the Battle of Kadesh around BC1274 signalled the end of bronze in military weapons and their replacement by iron.
    Somewhat over-simplified, I thought; unlikely that one event was so crucial and anyway, what was happening in other parts of the world.
    He got that from a Wilbur Smith novel. Smith describes very credibly what happens when you take a bronze sword to an iron sword fight, might as well be made of chocolate. Never tried but I can see how it might be true given how bendy copper is.
    It has been an intermittent source of idle questioning for me as to why bronze became so widely used. While it's harder than copper alone, the best 'mixer' tin, isn't that widely available.
    Iron’s melting point is about 500°C hotter than copper’s. There was plenty of tin in Cyprus and Cornwall and bits and price elsewhere. But yes, it did require a stable system of trade to make bigger Bronze Age civs thrive.
    Point noted. I think there was tin in what we now call Afghanistan, wasn't there. Thought Cyprus was copper, hence the name.
    wiki thinks no tin in Cyprus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#Europe

    and

    "While there are a few sources of cassiterite in Central Asia, namely in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan, that show signs of having been exploited starting around 2000 BC (Cierny & Weisgerber 2003, p. 28), archaeologists disagree about whether they were significant sources of tin for the earliest Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East (Dayton 2003; Muhly 1973; Maddin 1998; Stech & Pigott 1986)."
    One thing that we underestimate is how extensive world trade/exchange was before written history started. Great nations rose and fell that we know little of besides a few physical artefacts.
    Stonehenge had visitors from all over Western Europe long before recorded history. Writing seems to have been the big break-through.
    I always thought so on Civ 3.
    Remember arguing this with the Head who was subbing, and had clearly prepared a class on the wheel being the most significant invention in history.
    He didn't like me pointing out MesoAmerica thrived without it. Shortly after I was blackballed for the prefect gig.
    I remember finding somewhere that 'illiterate' Bronze and Iron Age coastal peoples worked out tide tables and required trainee sailors to memorise them. Early Polynesians did very well with rote-learning of star patterns, too.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,380

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Hoddie?

    A bricklayer on the side.

    Very Churchillian!
  • Options
    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    In the other hand, Madame Gazelle, migrant working in a school, definitely Remain and some sort of lefty tactical voter.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Haver you ever been to Peppa Pig World, HYUFD? Many parents have. They know it for rip-off prices, long queues and sub-standard attractions. If the Tories seriously want to attack Starmer for that then it will just emphasise their total lack of seriousness. Good!

  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,898

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Born in Southwark, raised in Surrey, lives in North London and does not like Peppa Pig or Brexit, not exactly tailor made to win back the working class or lower middle class voters for Labour Boris won in 2019
    In your haste to gain half a smidgeon of party advantage you've missed the point; SKS said nothing about not liking Peppa herself; it's the 'World' he doesn't like.
    Same, I suspect, applies to Disneyworld and other theme parks.
    I quite enjoyed watching the TV with Youngest Grandchild, and watching her reactions; don't think I'd enjoy a 'World'.
    All of these ‘fun worlds’ are a living hell, and you don’t need to be a grandfather to know that.
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I have been there a couple of times, when it was known as Paultons Park with Fox Jr and his grandparents. The go carts aren't too bad, but otherwise I am with SKS!
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,581

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Haver you ever been to Peppa Pig World, HYUFD? Many parents have. They know it for rip-off prices, long queues and sub-standard attractions. If the Tories seriously want to attack Starmer for that then it will just emphasise their total lack of seriousness. Good!

    Also invites the memory, and indeed the repeat viewing of innumerable "Mr Johnson's idea of a serious speech to one of the most important groups in UK business" clips.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,898
    Northstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
    Why?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,318
    Cicero said:

    Foxy said:


    The new bill on police powers restricting and criminalising peaceful protest should be of much greater concern. Sooner or later Conservatives are going to want to protest.

    Yes, and in North Shropshire they have the perfect opportunity to do so.
    But then they'll be complicit in the assault on Peppa Pig, won't they? Oh, democratic choice is so HARD.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I thought Starmer was a Surrey boy?
    Besides, most parents reading that will know about Peppa Pig World, and nod along in wry agreement.

    (Been there, done that, got the Daddy Pig hoddie.)
    Hoddie?

    A bricklayer on the side.

    Very Churchillian!
    There was a very successful Essex bowler some years ago nicknamed 'Hoddie' because each winter he'd go back to the family building firm.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,898

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    Quite often your posts are beyond parody. This nonetheless is a high ( or low?) point even for you.

    Strangely you have a hatful of supporters jumping on your bandwagon.

    Peppa Pig World could always sue Starmer, although that would continually remind us of the CBI speech.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,519
    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,898
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    The situation before vaccines was: ""horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the Covid victim. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of covid victims die."
    Sure. The public perception of risk has always been way off kilter. I recall a survey very early in the pandemic showing that those polled believed that 10% of the population had died from Covid. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with my original post or not?
    But that is a gross and obvious error, and if you are happy to deal in unquantified concepts like "tiny minority" you must accept that vaccines are beginning to look as if they are in marzipan dildo utility country.
    Someone liked this post. Out and out anti vax nonsense from a normally intelligent poster.
  • Options

    Northstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Slagging off Peppa Pig World - what a wrong ‘un…

    I doubt Boris’ rambling references to it were somehow a stroke of cryptic genius, but Keir’s response is truly beyond the pale.
    Why?
    My main memory of Peppa Pig World and the adjacent Paulton’s Park is spending time with my kids there, having fun. They grew up watching Peppa Pig - and were excited to go in that way that only kids can be.

    What does SKS find dreadful in that?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Good morning all. I'm in Bradford, on my way to get boosted. While I have an appointment, there is also a walk in facility set up in the main shopping mall offering flu and Covid jabs. A decent queue has formed.

    I shall report back later on which vax I get and any side effects.

    Also, decent level of mask compliance on the train and in the shops. 80% as an estimate. No enforcement.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914
    India are batting again.
  • Options

    India are batting again.

    2 day game probably not good for the BCCI
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    35m
    There really is an Ed Miliband 2012 feel abut Starmer's leadership at the moment. His supporters are convinced he's making progress. Everyone else thinks he's flatlining.

    ===

    Oink, Oink...
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    Anyone with kids knows that parks targeted at children are overpriced, but they charge it because they can.
  • Options
    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
  • Options
    Thread:

    While Alpha and Delta were 'pandemic variants', Omicron might become the first 'endemic variant' of many to come. ....

    .....I don't believe there's much we can do besides encouraging further uptake of vaccines / boosters globally to keep morbidity and mortality as low as possible over the coming months.
    4/


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1467082142677098496?s=20
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929
    edited December 2021

    Have I got this right? The battleground for the next GE is going to be the Party Leaders' opinions of Peppa Pig World?

    Doubtless Ed Davey will sit on the fence and remain studiously neutral.

    The LD's need radical, distinctive policies which sit outside the mainstream of the Culture War.
    Expect a speech on Raa Raa the Noisy Lion.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    Anyone with kids knows that parks targeted at children are overpriced, but they charge it because they can.
    The latter suggests that they are priced correctly!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't get the omigod Omicron affects the double jabbed thing.

    I and plenty of my friends have had Covid since being double jabbed. Like the flu for a couple of days in my case and a bit longer for others.

    This is of course no comment on the potency or otherwise or the transmissibility of Omicron just that it's strange to see such shock headlines.

    Yes every adult I know who has caught Covid recently has been double jabbed. It's mostly not been life threatening (although I know of someone, early 40s, double jabbed, no underlying conditions, who died) but without fail it's been horrible and debilitating and most have been surprised at how long it's taken to fully recover. I am still far from 100% three weeks after catching it.
    Yes, same here, for sure "horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the vaccinated. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of the vaccinated die. We always knew that no vaccine will be 100% effective.

    Yet ALL positives are included in the 4pm gloom-fest new infection figures - despite infections not being remotely equal in significance.

    We need to know how close our medical system is to collapse. Publishing new infection figures is, post-vaccine, way too divorced from this aim and just serves to generate panic, eagerly stoked by the media.
    The situation before vaccines was: ""horrible and debilitating for a few weeks" is the typical experience of the Covid victim. Either that or no symptoms at all. A tiny minority of covid victims die."
    Sure. The public perception of risk has always been way off kilter. I recall a survey very early in the pandemic showing that those polled believed that 10% of the population had died from Covid. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with my original post or not?
    But that is a gross and obvious error, and if you are happy to deal in unquantified concepts like "tiny minority" you must accept that vaccines are beginning to look as if they are in marzipan dildo utility country.
    Someone liked this post. Out and out anti vax nonsense from a normally intelligent poster.
    Yes, I still don't understand why anyone is trying to make sense out of data from 22 cases, of which two had unknown vaccine status and all the ages are completely unknown and which vaccine they had is also completely unknown.

    Just a gentle reminder that AZ has got efficacy of ~50% and Pfizer of ~70% against Delta, we should expect for quite a lot of vaccination people to get Omicron, it's nothing to panic about.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
    Would it be overly callous to talk about cooking the pulled pork?

  • Options
    Keith Kitten -v- Peppa Pig
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,914

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Google reviews with big samples. Peppa Pig world 4.7/5 Legoland 4.1/5
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
    My sister, who lives 50 miles from PPW, has been twice. She says it’s very good.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Massive rip-off but 'popular' = this Conservative Government. Do people go to PPW twice.....?
    Good morning

    If Starmer has said that then it is ill-judged and I agree with @HYUFD
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited December 2021

    Is it antivaxxer hour again on PB?

    Worse than that - Peppa Pigate is kicking off. 🐖

    I’m off to make spicy chicken and lemon pizza.
    Would it be overly callous to talk about cooking the pulled pork?

    So right. Avoid pork today. 😆

    But seriously, HYUFD isn’t being serious (surely) but it is a gaff, because it’s not true. Peppa Pig World is one of the most popular theme parks around, a favourite with children for sure.

    I don’t have kids, but those friends have them aren’t sure Peppa Pig is a good role model. One of my friends is convinced it’s teaching his daughter to rebel, that it’s subconsciously teaching kids anarchism and anti authority. That’s the opposite of what Boris said. Is it Boris has missed something?

    there’s science to pizza topping. Spicy Chicken needs some counterbalances and I have half a lemon left over from yesterday I can squeeze over the top.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,789

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    LOL! He wasn't prepared to say that only women have a cervix but doesn't mind launching a completely unwarranted attack on poor Peppa Pig.

    The general election campaign with SKS is going to be fun... ;)
    Whatever you think of Blair or even Corbyn, neither of them would have made that gaffe. Boris certainly wouldn't have done, they would instinctively have realised it would make them seem aloof and out of touch.

    Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.

    He has made efforts to move Labour back to the centre and is able to use his legal skills to interrogate Boris at PMQs but he still lacks charisma and the common touch.

    “ Starmer may now try and say he was only insulting the theme park not Peppa Pig herself but the damage has been done.”

    Compared to Every screw up the government has done in the last few months, is this all you got now? 🤷‍♀️
    LOL
    So Peppa Pig world is a massive rip-off. The PM enjoyed it, the LOTO recognised it for what it was.
    Our PM is profligate with money, the LOTO is prudent.
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    35m
    There really is an Ed Miliband 2012 feel abut Starmer's leadership at the moment. His supporters are convinced he's making progress. Everyone else thinks he's flatlining.

    ===

    Oink, Oink...
    He is making progress in that Labour is now not completely mad. I doubt there are many Jewish people seriously considering leaving the country because they don't think they will be safe if he become PM?

    So that's progress.

    But SKS himself is obviously a complete dud. He's just there to make Labour sane again and pave the way until someone better comes along.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer gaffe. He just insults the most popular children's TV character of the decade's theme park in the way only a North London intellectual snob could.

    “I have been to Peppa Pig World, of course I have. It’s dreadful.” Keir Starmer

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1467065497304903683?s=20

    I would have thought that's a fairly universal view among parents who've been there. I've not been there but my wife has, she went with friends visiting from the Maldives (Peppa Pig is a global brand) and I think the consensus was that it was a massive rip-off.
    If he'd said it about Legoland, which is brilliant, it would have been a different matter completely...
    Google reviews with big samples. Peppa Pig world 4.7/5 Legoland 4.1/5
    You mean Keir wasn’t instinctively and compellingly articulating a view that chimes with what ordinary people think?

    Colour me shocked!
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    I very much hope that Peppa Pig runs against Johnson & Starmer for PM in G2 2024.

    She'd win easily, no?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,380
    edited December 2021

    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
    Presumably she has swine flu ... or at least swine flew




  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,212
    I would presume that the some of the stuff that Macron has done to please the hard right - hijab bans etc - hasn't gone down well with Starmer.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    MattW said:

    If Peppa Pig made 6bn, she is obviously a capitalist.

    Therefore unacceptable to North London public sector millionaire types who made most of their money through property prices without doing any work for it at all.

    :smile:

    Where does Peppa stand on lockdown for omicron? And has she been vaccinated? We need to know!
    Does she have a cervix Mr Starmer? Have you made any comment about the privatisation of hospital in Bath Mr Starmer?

    Did you call Peppa Pig a Surrealist hair dryer Prime Minister? Is such language appropriate Prime Minister?

    I could present Woman’s Hour 🙂
This discussion has been closed.