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On Smarkets its a 55% chance that Scotland will vote for Independence – politicalbetting.com

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  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Javid was the one who told JCVI to take a shit or get off the pot.

    Otherwise we wold still be waiting for an answer on boosters.
    I'm not a fan.
    He’s a bit thick, but considerably better than Hancock.
    Well because he gave them a kick, we have the booster program running.

    And when the "professionals" were being dilatory about it, he gave them a further kick by handing responsibility for the booster program back to the people who ran the original vaccination program.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    edited November 2021
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    I love the observation on the packet: "delicious with cheese and wine". Indeed they are, indeed they are.

    Not a fan of the original bath olivers, but you can sometimes find them chocolate coated. Cost a fortune, but worth it
    I thought they had stopped making them (the originals and presumably the chocolate-coated ones).
    Still on the Waitrose website.
    Yes. Google to the rescue. They apparently did stop, or pause making them but they were brought back after an outcry, marches on Downing Street, flag burning, etc. Or rather a polite letter to United Biscuits.

    https://www.pressreader.com/uk/western-daily-press/20201008/281539408419088
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983

    Feeling much better today. And spirits are high this week :)

    Great to hear. Keep at it!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    MaxPB said:


    We could be, but aren't yet. I think what's really important to remember is that diluted vaccine efficacy doesn't necessarily mean an increase in hospitalisations and the UK has done almost 17m third doses covering almost all of the key 70+ cohort most likely to get severely ill from it. For example, Beta reduced overall VE for two doses of AZ to 30% but it still showed an 85% reduction in hospitalisations, which is pretty significant. We may end up talking about a reduction from 99% efficacy against severe symptoms to 95% in the end for the triple dosed, which is an increase but maybe not as bad as we think.

    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Mrs Stodge and I are due our booster vaccinations tomorrow.

    Obviously, this new variant is a cause of concern and has spooked the financial markets accordingly. As you say, unless there is clear evidence the current vaccination regimen is ineffective, I'm not going to get too concerned.

    It will be interesting to see how the efficacy of the triple vaccination performs over time especially as the new variant will doubtless gain traction worldwide.

    I suspect we might be looking at fourth vaccinations in April-May?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    And Labour winning by one vote in Wandsworth!
  • This has to be my new avatar

  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    Apparently its all down to local issues and nothing to worry about for Labour. They have only been in opposition to 12 years, swings to the governing party are normal!!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021

    MaxPB said:

    [snip]
    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Yes, that's going to be a very interesting one to watch; we might be lucky on that one compared with countries that relied almost entirely on mRNA vaccines.

    I also agree with your earlier points about bringing forward the third jabs. The case for a reduction of the interval to (say) 5 months was already strong, and it looks to me as though it's now overwhelming.
    We should have mixed and matched, especially the booster.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    This account has been credible on the vaccines throughout and doesn’t seem too alarmed by the new variant.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464222680731820043

    If there is one thing I am going to tell you today it is to IGNORE the media and the clickbait headlines on this new variant. There is NO plausible scenario this will take us back to square one and there is a lot of misinformation currently circulating.

    Yes, worth saying. But also worth saying that 'back to square 1' is at the catastrophic end of possibilities. For me, the bad realistic one is that Nu is highly transmissible AND has a high hospitalization/death effect AND evades the vaccines to a degree that means a new vaccine has to be made and rolled out. Kind of a 'back to square 2 or 3' scenario. But I really hope not.
    Yes, that's the Reasonable Worst Case Scenario, and as Rule 1 of Covid unfortunately tells us, that is generally what happens (with one huge exception: vaccines, there we got the Reasonable Best Case Scenario - effective jabs within a year)
    Chill Winston. To name two. The reasonable worst case fatality ratio was far higher than it’s turned out to be. There was a brief period in April 2020 when it looked like the free pass covid generally gives to kids was about to be revoked.
    Ya sure?

    Various authorities say that Covid has now killed 10-20 million people, worldwide (official figure is 5m but it is clearly nonsense). And a few million more will piss on their chips before we're done

    If you'd asked folk at the outset of Covid how they felt about 20 million dying around the world, and maybe 200,000 in the UK, they would have filed that under "reasonable worst case scenario" if not "get tae fuck, madman"

    I remember the incredulous expression of the Channel 4 News guy when he interviewed Neil Ferguson, as he asked Ferguson how many might die if we don't do lockdowns and stuff. Ferguson said, very carefully, "it could be 500,000, that's a reasonable worse case scenario"

    The C4 dude basically laughed in disbelief. Yet Ferguson was right. 500,000 could easily have died without mitigations
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    This has to be my new avatar

    Alexander Boris de Peppa Johnson
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    More details on the Belgian case:

    The Belgian government has said that one individual has tested positive for the B.1.1.529 variant, the new strain of the coronavirus that was just detected in South Africa.

    Belgium is the first European country to confirm a case of the new variant.

    The individual tested positive for the new variant of Covid-19 on Nov. 22, Health Minister Frank Vandenbroucke said.

    The patient was unvaccinated and had recently travelled from Egypt, tweeted Marc Van Ranst, Belgium’s leading virologist who originally discovered the case.

    Shortly after this announcement, France announced that it is “reinforcing” control at its border with Belgium, the government’s spokesperson told reporters on Friday.


    https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/new-covid-variant-south-africa-11-26-21/index.html

    Elsewhere I read that the double jabbed Hong Kong case was asymptomatic.....

    I really, really think we need to start putting up punishing tariffs on unvaccinated travellers. I'm not in favour of doing it domestically, but letting in unvaccinated people from other countries just strikes me as utterly idiotic.
    I was under the presumption that you needed to be vaccinated to be able to travel in and out of all European countries?

    Edit:- I think some say vaccinated or recovered from covid right? I presume this case might be a reinfection, which from the evidence of Beta variant that was a big concern that it was fairly easy to get reinfected with this variant after having had one of the other ones.
    Exactly. How can you possibly get on a plane without proving you are jabbed? Fuck that shit
    It’s a jab or a negative test plus quarantine at the other end
  • the European Commission's recommendation that EU countries stop travel to and from nations where the variant has been found is a "reasonable precautionary measure" while scientists investigate.

    Including Belgium?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    Apparently its all down to local issues and nothing to worry about for Labour. They have only been in opposition to 12 years, swings to the governing party are normal!!
    ......the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the Opposition
    And could only win it back
    By increased votes. Would it not in that case be simpler
    for the Opposition
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Oh, so at least one of Italy or Portugal won’t be going to Qatar.

    Not sure this format is the best way to produce the most competitive World Cup entrants.
    Not really. It's been fail to win your group and you are in the playoffs for some years now.
    Was a time it was only group winners.
    Italy, Holland, Sweden and the USA missed out last time. There are always notable non-qualifiers. And surprise qualifiers.
    Always have been.
    Mexico in a bit of strife too.
    But they're gerrymandering the playoffs to include two teams (Austria and Czech Republic) that didn't even finish in the top 2 of their groups. Look at the playoffs last time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Second_round

    The eight teams were seeded fairly. Personally, I think they should have seeded the draw so that the three best ranked teams would be kept apart in the finals (i.e. Portugal, Scotland (!), and Italy).
  • the European Commission's recommendation that EU countries stop travel to and from nations where the variant has been found is a "reasonable precautionary measure" while scientists investigate.

    Including Belgium?
    Well who wants to go to Belgium anyway....
  • Scott_xP said:

    Owen Paterson U-turn shows PM could also cave in to pressure over independence referendum, SNP deputy leader claims - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/nov/26/boris-johnson-letter-macron-paris-channel-crossings-deaths-covid-variant-uk-politics-live-latest-updates

    I doubt the government will face as united a HoC or serious rebellion over SindyRef2 as they did over Patterson....
  • MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    He was also in charge when they rammed the care homes full of untested frail elderly just to clear the hospitals.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    the European Commission's recommendation that EU countries stop travel to and from nations where the variant has been found is a "reasonable precautionary measure" while scientists investigate.

    Including Belgium?
    Well who wants to go to Belgium anyway....
    My brother currently lives in Brussels and I am hoping to see him for Christmas.

    We are booked to be in Portugal together.

    I am hoping this new variant does indeed turn out to be a storm in a teacup.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    He was also in charge when they rammed the care homes full of untested frail elderly just to clear the hospitals.
    Yes, I think the inquiry into COVID is not going to be kind to him or the DoH.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021

    the European Commission's recommendation that EU countries stop travel to and from nations where the variant has been found is a "reasonable precautionary measure" while scientists investigate.

    Including Belgium?
    Well who wants to go to Belgium anyway....
    My brother currently lives in Brussels and I am hoping to see him for Christmas.

    We are booked to be in Portugal together.

    I am hoping this new variant does indeed turn out to be a storm in a teacup.
    What terrible thing did he do in a past life to end up living there....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    [snip]
    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Yes, that's going to be a very interesting one to watch; we might be lucky on that one compared with countries that relied almost entirely on mRNA vaccines.

    I also agree with your earlier points about bringing forward the third jabs. The case for a reduction of the interval to (say) 5 months was already strong, and it looks to me as though it's now overwhelming.
    Let's hope Javid reads the riot act to the JCVI tonight and gets them to approve the decision. It would be very helpful to me and my wife as we both had our second doses at the end of June so could get our thirds in December.
    I am extremely glad I had my Moderna jab Wednesday, despite feeling shite for most of yesterday and half of today (much better now). Two AZs and one Moderna does seem a near-optimum mix, as things stand. Thankyou HMG and Saj Javid

    This is interesting from Israel. The PM saying they wargamed this exact Nu Scenario two weeks ago, so they have a plan ready to roll, and they are enacting it

    "NOW - Israel is on the verge of a state of emergency just two weeks after its "Omega War Game" virus exercise, says PM Bennett."


    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1464274356922683413?s=20
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Hancock might have been across the detail, I don’t know, but he lacked gravitas and compensated with pompous self-promotion.

    I tend to believe Cummings that Hancock was grotesquely out of his depth and resorted to just making things up.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    edited November 2021
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    More details on the Belgian case:

    The Belgian government has said that one individual has tested positive for the B.1.1.529 variant, the new strain of the coronavirus that was just detected in South Africa.

    Belgium is the first European country to confirm a case of the new variant.

    The individual tested positive for the new variant of Covid-19 on Nov. 22, Health Minister Frank Vandenbroucke said.

    The patient was unvaccinated and had recently travelled from Egypt, tweeted Marc Van Ranst, Belgium’s leading virologist who originally discovered the case.

    Shortly after this announcement, France announced that it is “reinforcing” control at its border with Belgium, the government’s spokesperson told reporters on Friday.


    https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/new-covid-variant-south-africa-11-26-21/index.html

    Elsewhere I read that the double jabbed Hong Kong case was asymptomatic.....

    I really, really think we need to start putting up punishing tariffs on unvaccinated travellers. I'm not in favour of doing it domestically, but letting in unvaccinated people from other countries just strikes me as utterly idiotic.
    I was under the presumption that you needed to be vaccinated to be able to travel in and out of all European countries?

    Edit:- I think some say vaccinated or recovered from covid right? I presume this case might be a reinfection, which from the evidence of Beta variant that was a big concern that it was fairly easy to get reinfected with this variant after having had one of the other ones.
    Exactly. How can you possibly get on a plane without proving you are jabbed? Fuck that shit
    It’s a jab or a negative test plus quarantine at the other end
    It's got to become: 'an up to date vaccination' or 'a medical cert to show you cannot be vaccinated + a test + quarantine'.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    the European Commission's recommendation that EU countries stop travel to and from nations where the variant has been found is a "reasonable precautionary measure" while scientists investigate.

    Including Belgium?
    Well who wants to go to Belgium anyway....
    My brother currently lives in Brussels and I am hoping to see him for Christmas.

    We are booked to be in Portugal together.

    I am hoping this new variant does indeed turn out to be a storm in a teacup.
    What terrible thing did he do in a past life to end up living there....
    He’s a diplomat.
    Speaks 7 languages.
    Very nice, blameless chap.
  • MaxPB said:

    [snip]
    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Yes, that's going to be a very interesting one to watch; we might be lucky on that one compared with countries that relied almost entirely on mRNA vaccines.

    I also agree with your earlier points about bringing forward the third jabs. The case for a reduction of the interval to (say) 5 months was already strong, and it looks to me as though it's now overwhelming.
    We should have mixed and matched, especially the booster.
    Aren't we? My impression is that rounds 1 & 2 were mainly AZ/AZ and Pfizer/Pfizer while the booster is mainly Moderna.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Come on Ukraine!
    Meanwhile, in the more important world of women's soccer, I noticed last night that Belgium were beating Armenia 12-0 last night.

    After 38 minutes.

    That's a goal every 3 minutes.

    It ended 19-0 so they took mercy in the second half.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    edited November 2021

    MaxPB said:

    [snip]
    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Yes, that's going to be a very interesting one to watch; we might be lucky on that one compared with countries that relied almost entirely on mRNA vaccines.

    I also agree with your earlier points about bringing forward the third jabs. The case for a reduction of the interval to (say) 5 months was already strong, and it looks to me as though it's now overwhelming.
    We should have mixed and matched, especially the booster.
    Aren't we? My impression is that rounds 1 & 2 were mainly AZ/AZ and Pfizer/Pfizer while the booster is mainly Moderna.
    AZ/AZ + Pfizer for Mrs P. and me...

    but the couple after us were surprised to be getting Pfizer after Pfizer/Pfizer for their first two jabs.

    So no, it's not always being mixed and matched.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited November 2021

    Hancock might have been across the detail, I don’t know, but he lacked gravitas and compensated with pompous self-promotion.

    I tend to believe Cummings that Hancock was grotesquely out of his depth and resorted to just making things up.

    I have a couple of cousins who are senior consultants in NHS trusts in London who would agree with Dom as well.

    There's a reason why he got on so well with Boris and Boris tried to hang onto him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021
    Totally off topic, but for the cricket fans out there..."Hitting Against the Spin" apparently will be 99p for Kindle in December. It is literally the book that explains you why everything you think you know about cricket is probably wrong and why the commentators really are clueless especially about T20!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    I tend to believe Cummings that Hancock was grotesquely out of his depth and resorted to just making things up.

    Name a single member of the cabinet (or Cummings himself) for whom that is not true?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    I think he did an outstanding job. He was there in the middle of a total panic, and he was always calm and considered. The huge expenditure from the treasury was undoubtedly in part influenced by him (slightly too much in my view)

    PPE procurement was just about finding something. Some bones can be picked over, and villains found and (my preference) shot.

    Test and Trace was awful. Was that Hancock though? I don't think it was. (Cummings?)

    Vaccination was good. Presumably him.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    He was also in charge when they rammed the care homes full of untested frail elderly just to clear the hospitals.
    Yes, I think the inquiry into COVID is not going to be kind to him or the DoH.
    The initial advice came from PHE.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    I would have thought firing up the old press conference room for one this evening would have been sensible.
    Seriously - to say what? We don't know anything at the moment, and there is nothing to add to what we are doing, unless you just want to impose restrictions again. The pressure on the NHS is currently easing - fewer patients being admitted, fewer in beds with covid. Let calm down a bit and see what the scientists actually find out about Nu, not what lots of pointless scaremongering speculation guesses.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021

    MaxPB said:

    [snip]
    There's also reason to believe that the AZ/AZ/X patients will do very well because of the broad based T-Cell immunity offered and the UK is pretty much alone in the west where 50% of our double jabbed are AZ, especially among the key over 70s cohort.

    Yes, that's going to be a very interesting one to watch; we might be lucky on that one compared with countries that relied almost entirely on mRNA vaccines.

    I also agree with your earlier points about bringing forward the third jabs. The case for a reduction of the interval to (say) 5 months was already strong, and it looks to me as though it's now overwhelming.
    We should have mixed and matched, especially the booster.
    Aren't we? My impression is that rounds 1 & 2 were mainly AZ/AZ and Pfizer/Pfizer while the booster is mainly Moderna.
    Yes, but you ideal mixture is an mRNA and an AZN. All those that had Pfizer first, will just have had mRNA. I have had triple Moderna.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    Scott_xP said:

    I tend to believe Cummings that Hancock was grotesquely out of his depth and resorted to just making things up.

    Name a single member of the cabinet (or Cummings himself) for whom that is not true?
    Carrie?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_xP said:

    I tend to believe Cummings that Hancock was grotesquely out of his depth and resorted to just making things up.

    Name a single member of the cabinet (or Cummings himself) for whom that is not true?
    Rishi is across his detail, even if I disagree with him ideologically. I rate Wallace, Zahawi and Sharma. Coffey a bit less so but she is not awful. Gove I normally rate, but he seems to have gone awol since his demotion.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    Yes
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    Stocky said:

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Come on Ukraine!
    Meanwhile, in the more important world of women's soccer, I noticed last night that Belgium were beating Armenia 12-0 last night.

    After 38 minutes.

    That's a goal every 3 minutes.

    It ended 19-0 so they took mercy in the second half.
    Tsk! Took their foot off the gas!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    BoJo is a lucky PM. When all looks lost, the press come out with a picture of Gendarmes sitting in their car eating sandwiches while some doomed migrants pass before their very eyes launching an equally doomed ship.

    Macron then has a go at the British for causing trouble.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Eleven months into the year, Britons continue to think that Brexit is going badly

    Going well: 18% (n/c)
    Going badly: 52% (-1)
    Neither: 20% (-1)

    Changes from Sept 29

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/11/26/af1f1/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions+&utm_campaign=question_1 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1464278384914141225/photo/1
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    I think he did an outstanding job. He was there in the middle of a total panic, and he was always calm and considered. The huge expenditure from the treasury was undoubtedly in part influenced by him (slightly too much in my view)

    PPE procurement was just about finding something. Some bones can be picked over, and villains found and (my preference) shot.

    Test and Trace was awful. Was that Hancock though? I don't think it was. (Cummings?)

    Vaccination was good. Presumably him.
    T&T is all Hancock and Dido, it was and still is pretty rubbish. Vaccines was the VTF, not Hancock. If anyone in the government is to take credit it's Dom for taking it away from the DoH and Boris for approaching and appointing Kate Bingham who is a specialist in biotech investment (picking winners). PPE was a disaster, we actively ignored UK based PPE manufacturers in favour of Tory donors and cowboys who said they could source PPE and then didn't deliver.

    You seem to have an odd attachment to Hancock, he was useless and the government was drastically improved when he got booted.
  • Arwen is absolutely battering us. Trees down, roof off Tesco in the Broch, sheds demolished - wind gusts hard enough to rock you back onto your heels.

    Fun times :)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    Javid really should be issuing some sort of public health advisory. Wear a mask where you can, don't do so much daft stuff, work from home if there's an option, and if you're croaky, stay home.

    Someone this morning said he looked like a rabbit in the headlights - I think that's right. He rather brushed aside Hancock's work (the actual work). I think Hancock was a far better Health minister though.

    Are you mad? Hancock was completely incapable. Javid overnight forced through a red list decision. With Hancock they gave days of notice each time. He also forced through vaccines for 12-15 year olds and a very, very wide booster programme. Aiui he laid down the law to the JCVI about their remit wrt giving vaccines away and told them to get on with it.
    Mad? Don't think so, but you can be the judge.

    Hancock was completely on the case in my view. Apart of course from where he was otherwise engaged.

    Javid just made a noise. I'd prefer Hancock in charge of health, and I'd much prefer to see Hunt at the helm.
    I honestly can't think of a single scenario where Hancock was on the case. The vaccine procurement was handed to the VTF and a specialist in biotech VC because Hancock wasn't trusted to actually do it properly. He completely bungled PPE procurement and even the roll out of testing was simply turned into a numbers game, on isolation he completely failed to get treasury buy in to make isolation viable for ordinary people and on reopening he was simply unable to see beyond lockdowns. He was and is a complete disaster and whoever leaked that video did the nation a huge favour.
    He was also in charge when they rammed the care homes full of untested frail elderly just to clear the hospitals.
    Yes, I think the inquiry into COVID is not going to be kind to him or the DoH.
    The initial advice came from PHE.
    I will repeat *again) what I was told - that permanent officials were appalled to discover that ministers are planning, when the eventual enquiry comes, to deny responsibility for actions taken against their express instructions.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Dow Jones heading for a daily loss of around 1,000 points
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021
    I have been very busy, but unlike Zahawi, do we ever hear from the new vaccines minister? I can't even remember her name.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    The drenched frillys crown might just have your name on it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    Oh, the irony!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    I have been very busy, but unlike Zahawi, do we ever hear from the new vaccines minister? I can't even remember her name.

    I didn't know it was a her...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Here’s my current Cabinet ranking

    1. Zahawi
    2. Sharma
    3. Wallace
    4. Rishi
    5. Coffey
    6. Gove
    7. Javid
    8. Kwarteng
    9. Truss
    10. Frost
    11. Shapps
    12. Patel
    12. Raab
    13. Johnson

    Others are unknown / unrated.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    If the cases are mild for people with immunity and this is more transmissible then this could be the endgame for COVID. The question is how it presents in unvaccinated people with no natural immunity. If it spreads rapidly and causes severe cases among those with no immunity it could be a very, very bad winter for countries like NZ and Oz who have got little to no reservoir of natural immunity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    I did ask politely before my booster if I could have an AZ vaccine this time, having had the Pfizer for my first two. Nothing wrong with spreading your bets as all the gamblers on here kvow well. Unfortunately, it wasn't possible but I did try
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    IanB2 said:

    Dow Jones heading for a daily loss of around 1,000 points

    Are you all out of the markets?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,096
    Scott_xP said:

    Eleven months into the year, Britons continue to think that Brexit is going badly

    Going well: 18% (n/c)
    Going badly: 52% (-1)
    Neither: 20% (-1)

    Changes from Sept 29

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/11/26/af1f1/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions+&utm_campaign=question_1 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1464278384914141225/photo/1

    Yet ask them if they want to restore EU free movement, UK payments to the EU and ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and stop the UK doing its own trade deals and you would get a rather different answer
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983

    Here’s my current Cabinet ranking

    1. Zahawi
    2. Sharma
    3. Wallace
    4. Rishi
    5. Coffey
    6. Gove
    7. Javid
    8. Kwarteng
    9. Truss
    10. Frost
    11. Shapps
    12. Patel
    12. Raab
    13. Johnson

    Others are unknown / unrated.

    A good list. I'd move Raab further up but he does his best to want to stay down at the bottom.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    Apparently its all down to local issues and nothing to worry about for Labour. They have only been in opposition to 12 years, swings to the governing party are normal!!
    It's perfectly possible for a governing party to win seats in local by-elections.

    A lot depends on the circumstances of the by-election and the ability of any party to get its vote out - the turnouts were (not surprisingly) derisory in some of the contests so a well organised postal vote operation can pay dividends.

    As for @isam's comment on Wandsworth, I explained that down thread - Bedford is a highly marginal Ward.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388

    I have been very busy, but unlike Zahawi, do we ever hear from the new vaccines minister? I can't even remember her name.

    Maggie Throup. AKA The Invisible Woman.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    TOPPING said:

    Here’s my current Cabinet ranking

    1. Zahawi
    2. Sharma
    3. Wallace
    4. Rishi
    5. Coffey
    6. Gove
    7. Javid
    8. Kwarteng
    9. Truss
    10. Frost
    11. Shapps
    12. Patel
    12. Raab
    13. Johnson

    Others are unknown / unrated.

    A good list. I'd move Raab further up but he does his best to want to stay down at the bottom.
    I forgot Dorries who is probably between Raab and Johnson.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Oh, so at least one of Italy or Portugal won’t be going to Qatar.

    Not sure this format is the best way to produce the most competitive World Cup entrants.
    Not really. It's been fail to win your group and you are in the playoffs for some years now.
    Was a time it was only group winners.
    Italy, Holland, Sweden and the USA missed out last time. There are always notable non-qualifiers. And surprise qualifiers.
    Always have been.
    Mexico in a bit of strife too.
    But they're gerrymandering the playoffs to include two teams (Austria and Czech Republic) that didn't even finish in the top 2 of their groups. Look at the playoffs last time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Second_round

    The eight teams were seeded fairly. Personally, I think they should have seeded the draw so that the three best ranked teams would be kept apart in the finals (i.e. Portugal, Scotland (!), and Italy).
    Yes. Fair comment. The problem has arisen largely cos Europe has gained more teams. And been stuck at 13 qualifiers for a while. No system will be perfect, as 13 isn't a great number to play with.
    The previous one was 9 groups and 4 winners of playoffs from the best 8 runners up. Which wasn't great for the ninth best runner up. Especially because they were ninth from being in a strong group.
    Before that a random runner up played an Asian team. Ireland played off against Iran ISTR.
    Personally, the whole system needs a re-think.
    Maybe we should have European pre-qualification groups.
    And then worldwide final stage groups?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    If the cases are mild for people with immunity and this is more transmissible then this could be the endgame for COVID. The question is how it presents in unvaccinated people with no natural immunity. If it spreads rapidly and causes severe cases among those with no immunity it could be a very, very bad winter for countries like NZ and Oz who have got little to no reservoir of natural immunity.
    Yep. I don't think there is much doubt now that it is notably infectious. But severity in vaxxed and/or unvaxxed? That's the key

    However NZ and Oz are now jabbed to the eyeballs, so if it doesn't hit the vaxxed hard, they will be fine

    We need that evasion and severity data

  • More than 25% of the entire UK population has now had a booster (includes >80% of each age group above 70).

    AND - they're working. You can clearly see hospitalisations and deaths are still falling even as cases approach record highs again.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/covid-19-booster-vaccines-drive-down-hospital-admissions-in-uk-1322069


    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1464273914713059331?s=20
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    This account has been credible on the vaccines throughout and doesn’t seem too alarmed by the new variant.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464222680731820043

    If there is one thing I am going to tell you today it is to IGNORE the media and the clickbait headlines on this new variant. There is NO plausible scenario this will take us back to square one and there is a lot of misinformation currently circulating.

    Yes, worth saying. But also worth saying that 'back to square 1' is at the catastrophic end of possibilities. For me, the bad realistic one is that Nu is highly transmissible AND has a high hospitalization/death effect AND evades the vaccines to a degree that means a new vaccine has to be made and rolled out. Kind of a 'back to square 2 or 3' scenario. But I really hope not.
    Yes, that's the Reasonable Worst Case Scenario, and as Rule 1 of Covid unfortunately tells us, that is generally what happens (with one huge exception: vaccines, there we got the Reasonable Best Case Scenario - effective jabs within a year)
    Chill Winston. To name two. The reasonable worst case fatality ratio was far higher than it’s turned out to be. There was a brief period in April 2020 when it looked like the free pass covid generally gives to kids was about to be revoked.
    Ya sure?

    Various authorities say that Covid has now killed 10-20 million people, worldwide (official figure is 5m but it is clearly nonsense). And a few million more will piss on their chips before we're done

    If you'd asked folk at the outset of Covid how they felt about 20 million dying around the world, and maybe 200,000 in the UK, they would have filed that under "reasonable worst case scenario" if not "get tae fuck, madman"

    I remember the incredulous expression of the Channel 4 News guy when he interviewed Neil Ferguson, as he asked Ferguson how many might die if we don't do lockdowns and stuff. Ferguson said, very carefully, "it could be 500,000, that's a reasonable worse case scenario"

    The C4 dude basically laughed in disbelief. Yet Ferguson was right. 500,000 could easily have died without mitigations
    How many millions of schoolchildren have had their education ruined by the lockdown?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2021
    South Africa reports 2,828 new coronavirus cases, an increase of 258% from last week, with a positivity rate of 9.1%

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1464280278197846025?s=20
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    If the cases are mild for people with immunity and this is more transmissible then this could be the endgame for COVID. The question is how it presents in unvaccinated people with no natural immunity. If it spreads rapidly and causes severe cases among those with no immunity it could be a very, very bad winter for countries like NZ and Oz who have got little to no reservoir of natural immunity.
    Yep. I don't think there is much doubt now that it is notably infectious. But severity in vaxxed and/or unvaxxed? That's the key

    However NZ and Oz are now jabbed to the eyeballs, so if it doesn't hit the vaxxed hard, they will be fine

    We need that evasion and severity data

    Their vax rates are about the same as ours, but they have got no natural immunity. I'd much rather be in our position than their position, for sure.

    In any case, I don't think this is going to be that bad, nothing worth warranting another lockdown here.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    Apparently its all down to local issues and nothing to worry about for Labour. They have only been in opposition to 12 years, swings to the governing party are normal!!
    It's perfectly possible for a governing party to win seats in local by-elections.

    A lot depends on the circumstances of the by-election and the ability of any party to get its vote out - the turnouts were (not surprisingly) derisory in some of the contests so a well organised postal vote operation can pay dividends.

    As for @isam's comment on Wandsworth, I explained that down thread - Bedford is a highly marginal Ward.
    Also quite easily in Scottish local by-elections, if the confounding factor of the difference between multivacancy slates (as in normal elections) and single vacancies (as in a by election) happens to be favoiurable to the ruling party.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    I'm trying to work out what he means by "effective reproduction number" - presumably it is not pure R, but some kind of R in the real world, where there is some immunity and mitigation?

    I'm sure I could pass a GCSE in epidemiology now. But not an A Level
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone notice the local by-elections last night? Huge swings to the Tories in Newcastle-under-Lyme and Nuneaton, seats Labour needs to win to get a majority.

    And Labour winning by one vote in Wandsworth!
    In a seat they won easily at the last local elections.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    This account has been credible on the vaccines throughout and doesn’t seem too alarmed by the new variant.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464222680731820043

    If there is one thing I am going to tell you today it is to IGNORE the media and the clickbait headlines on this new variant. There is NO plausible scenario this will take us back to square one and there is a lot of misinformation currently circulating.

    Yes, worth saying. But also worth saying that 'back to square 1' is at the catastrophic end of possibilities. For me, the bad realistic one is that Nu is highly transmissible AND has a high hospitalization/death effect AND evades the vaccines to a degree that means a new vaccine has to be made and rolled out. Kind of a 'back to square 2 or 3' scenario. But I really hope not.
    Yes, that's the Reasonable Worst Case Scenario, and as Rule 1 of Covid unfortunately tells us, that is generally what happens (with one huge exception: vaccines, there we got the Reasonable Best Case Scenario - effective jabs within a year)
    Chill Winston. To name two. The reasonable worst case fatality ratio was far higher than it’s turned out to be. There was a brief period in April 2020 when it looked like the free pass covid generally gives to kids was about to be revoked.
    Ya sure?

    Various authorities say that Covid has now killed 10-20 million people, worldwide (official figure is 5m but it is clearly nonsense). And a few million more will piss on their chips before we're done

    If you'd asked folk at the outset of Covid how they felt about 20 million dying around the world, and maybe 200,000 in the UK, they would have filed that under "reasonable worst case scenario" if not "get tae fuck, madman"

    I remember the incredulous expression of the Channel 4 News guy when he interviewed Neil Ferguson, as he asked Ferguson how many might die if we don't do lockdowns and stuff. Ferguson said, very carefully, "it could be 500,000, that's a reasonable worse case scenario"

    The C4 dude basically laughed in disbelief. Yet Ferguson was right. 500,000 could easily have died without mitigations
    How many millions of schoolchildren have had their education ruined by the lockdown?
    Dude, I totally agree

    Sometimes I still wonder if we shoulda let the whole thing rip
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    Hopefully
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Stocky said:

    Aslan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Come on Ukraine!
    Meanwhile, in the more important world of women's soccer, I noticed last night that Belgium were beating Armenia 12-0 last night.

    After 38 minutes.

    That's a goal every 3 minutes.

    It ended 19-0 so they took mercy in the second half.
    Did you have the correct score?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Much more encouraging


    "However, Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association and a practising GP based in Pretoria, said it was “premature” to make predictions of a health crisis.

    "“It’s all speculation at this stage. It may be it’s highly transmissible but so far the cases we are seeing are extremely mild,” she said. “Maybe two weeks from now I will have a different opinion but this is what we are seeing. So are we seriously worried? No. We are concerned and we watch what’s happening. But for now we’re saying, ‘OK: there’s a whole hype out there. [We’re] not sure why’.”"

    Is it all just panic? Have PB's pathetic knicker-wetters disgraced themselves again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/26/south-africa-b11529-covid-variant-vaccination

    If the cases are mild for people with immunity and this is more transmissible then this could be the endgame for COVID. The question is how it presents in unvaccinated people with no natural immunity. If it spreads rapidly and causes severe cases among those with no immunity it could be a very, very bad winter for countries like NZ and Oz who have got little to no reservoir of natural immunity.
    Yep. I don't think there is much doubt now that it is notably infectious. But severity in vaxxed and/or unvaxxed? That's the key

    However NZ and Oz are now jabbed to the eyeballs, so if it doesn't hit the vaxxed hard, they will be fine

    We need that evasion and severity data

    Their vax rates are about the same as ours, but they have got no natural immunity. I'd much rather be in our position than their position, for sure.

    In any case, I don't think this is going to be that bad, nothing worth warranting another lockdown here.
    But 18 months ago if given the choice of where to be in Dec 2021, we’d have taken their cumulative deaths and relative vaccine levels versus ours. It’s a curious game of tortoise and hare all this and it’s still not clear where the finish line is. Many have been the time when I’ve felt smug to be living in the Uk only to feel soon after that fate had pulled out trousers down again.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    I'm trying to work out what he means by "effective reproduction number" - presumably it is not pure R, but some kind of R in the real world, where there is some immunity and mitigation?

    I'm sure I could pass a GCSE in epidemiology now. But not an A Level
    R of 1.94 in a fully vaccinated population would imply a high level of immunity escape, in a poorly vaccinated population it would be around the same Rt as Delta, maybe a bit higher at Rt 8-9 which is not a disaster, at least not for a country like the UK where there are 51m people with some level of vaccination and a further 8-10m with natural immunity.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited November 2021
    Once again, I think we should all take a moment to realise just how well Kate Bingham did with vaccine procurement. All of those early decisions have come up trumps again. Being able to do ~30m third doses before Xmas this year is a position that so many other countries don't have because their second doses were done in August and September.

    A slightly modified rule we should all live by - vaccinate early and vaccinate often.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200

    Here’s my current Cabinet ranking

    1. Zahawi
    2. Sharma
    3. Wallace
    4. Rishi
    5. Coffey
    6. Gove
    7. Javid
    8. Kwarteng
    9. Truss
    10. Frost
    11. Shapps
    12. Patel
    12. Raab
    13. Johnson

    Others are unknown / unrated.

    Spooky. It's like you're in my head. Any edits would be pure nitpick.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    Of course Rt depends on how much immunity there is in the population, so you can't compare it with the Rt of the original COVID in a population without immunity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    I'm trying to work out what he means by "effective reproduction number" - presumably it is not pure R, but some kind of R in the real world, where there is some immunity and mitigation?

    I'm sure I could pass a GCSE in epidemiology now. But not an A Level
    R of 1.94 in a fully vaccinated population would imply a high level of immunity escape, in a poorly vaccinated population it would be around the same Rt as Delta, maybe a bit higher at Rt 8-9 which is not a disaster, at least not for a country like the UK where there are 51m people with some level of vaccination and a further 8-10m with natural immunity.
    Guy on Twitter reckons this data implies that Nu's R0 is close to measles: R16

    You need 95% immunity to suppress measles, we won't get that until we've all got the Nunu, it will infect everyone vulnerable very fast

    Still not a disaster if it is not severe, indeed possibly the end of the pandemic, as you have said
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,746
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

    You'd need the mean time from exposure to infecting others to be ~3 days for that to be ballpark right, wouldn't you (so in three days your 100 can infect ~ 200 and after another three days tey've infected ~400). Which I understood to be definitely on the short side for current variants. It is of course possible that Nu could make people infectious quicker....

    Of course, depends on population studied too - if that Rt is among double vaccinated, say, then the R0 could be much higher depending how effective vaccines are.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    The oil price has dropped by more than 10% today.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/energy
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    This account has been credible on the vaccines throughout and doesn’t seem too alarmed by the new variant.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464222680731820043

    If there is one thing I am going to tell you today it is to IGNORE the media and the clickbait headlines on this new variant. There is NO plausible scenario this will take us back to square one and there is a lot of misinformation currently circulating.

    Yes, worth saying. But also worth saying that 'back to square 1' is at the catastrophic end of possibilities. For me, the bad realistic one is that Nu is highly transmissible AND has a high hospitalization/death effect AND evades the vaccines to a degree that means a new vaccine has to be made and rolled out. Kind of a 'back to square 2 or 3' scenario. But I really hope not.
    Yes, that's the Reasonable Worst Case Scenario, and as Rule 1 of Covid unfortunately tells us, that is generally what happens (with one huge exception: vaccines, there we got the Reasonable Best Case Scenario - effective jabs within a year)
    Chill Winston. To name two. The reasonable worst case fatality ratio was far higher than it’s turned out to be. There was a brief period in April 2020 when it looked like the free pass covid generally gives to kids was about to be revoked.
    Ya sure?

    Various authorities say that Covid has now killed 10-20 million people, worldwide (official figure is 5m but it is clearly nonsense). And a few million more will piss on their chips before we're done

    If you'd asked folk at the outset of Covid how they felt about 20 million dying around the world, and maybe 200,000 in the UK, they would have filed that under "reasonable worst case scenario" if not "get tae fuck, madman"

    I remember the incredulous expression of the Channel 4 News guy when he interviewed Neil Ferguson, as he asked Ferguson how many might die if we don't do lockdowns and stuff. Ferguson said, very carefully, "it could be 500,000, that's a reasonable worse case scenario"

    The C4 dude basically laughed in disbelief. Yet Ferguson was right. 500,000 could easily have died without mitigations
    How many millions of schoolchildren have had their education ruined by the lockdown?
    Dude, I totally agree

    Sometimes I still wonder if we shoulda let the whole thing rip
    That would overwhelm our health system and send death rates back to the 1800s.

    I do think that schools are the one thing that should have stayed open though. Especially for under 10s.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Eleven months into the year, Britons continue to think that Brexit is going badly

    Going well: 18% (n/c)
    Going badly: 52% (-1)
    Neither: 20% (-1)

    Changes from Sept 29

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/11/26/af1f1/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions+&utm_campaign=question_1 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1464278384914141225/photo/1

    Yet ask them if they want to restore EU free movement, UK payments to the EU and ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and stop the UK doing its own trade deals and you would get a rather different answer
    From which I would conclude: Brexit is still quite popular as an idea but this government is delivering it badly.

    No surprise really.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited November 2021
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scotland will face Ukraine in the World Cup playoff semi-final.

    Winner will face Wales or Austria.

    Oh, so at least one of Italy or Portugal won’t be going to Qatar.

    Not sure this format is the best way to produce the most competitive World Cup entrants.
    Not really. It's been fail to win your group and you are in the playoffs for some years now.
    Was a time it was only group winners.
    Italy, Holland, Sweden and the USA missed out last time. There are always notable non-qualifiers. And surprise qualifiers.
    Always have been.
    Mexico in a bit of strife too.
    But they're gerrymandering the playoffs to include two teams (Austria and Czech Republic) that didn't even finish in the top 2 of their groups. Look at the playoffs last time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Second_round

    The eight teams were seeded fairly. Personally, I think they should have seeded the draw so that the three best ranked teams would be kept apart in the finals (i.e. Portugal, Scotland (!), and Italy).
    Yes. Fair comment. The problem has arisen largely cos Europe has gained more teams. And been stuck at 13 qualifiers for a while. No system will be perfect, as 13 isn't a great number to play with.
    The previous one was 9 groups and 4 winners of playoffs from the best 8 runners up. Which wasn't great for the ninth best runner up. Especially because they were ninth from being in a strong group.
    Before that a random runner up played an Asian team. Ireland played off against Iran ISTR.
    Personally, the whole system needs a re-think.
    Maybe we should have European pre-qualification groups.
    And then worldwide final stage groups?
    So if I were the dictator of football (and I obviously should be), I would let UEFA have their 24 team Euros and say those 24 teams automatically qualify for the World Cup qualifiers. The rest would compete for the remaining 12 places. The likes of San Marino would play-off to get down to 24 teams and I'd draw them from two pots of seeds and non-seeds.

    Obviously the World Cup should stay at 32 teams. I would give the host a place, the holder a place and then:

    UEFA - 12.5 places
    CONMEBOL - 4.5 places
    CAF - 4.5 places
    AFC - 4.5 places
    CONCACAF - 3.5 places
    OCEANIA - 0.5 places

    For UEFA, I'd have six groups of six with the top two teams qualifying automatically and the best third place team going into an intercontinental play-off.

    For the World Cup itself, I'd have eight groups of four as now but only the group winners qualify. Then have two more groups of four with the winners of those groups meeting in the final and the runners-up meeting in the third place play-off. And, I'd give a place at the next world cup to the runner-up and winner of the third place play-off (i.e. to incentivise teams to try to get into that match).

    The runner-up and third place teams would count to their confederation's quota. So if they were both European, UEFA would have 10.5 places, in which case group winners and the best four runners up qualify automatically. The fifth best runner up goes into the intercontinental play-off.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Selebian said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

    You'd need the mean time from exposure to infecting others to be ~3 days for that to be ballpark right, wouldn't you (so in three days your 100 can infect ~ 200 and after another three days tey've infected ~400). Which I understood to be definitely on the short side for current variants. It is of course possible that Nu could make people infectious quicker....

    Of course, depends on population studied too - if that Rt is among double vaccinated, say, then the R0 could be much higher depending how effective vaccines are.
    Yes, as a number alone it's not very useful. We need to know the circumstances of the spread.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    I'm trying to work out what he means by "effective reproduction number" - presumably it is not pure R, but some kind of R in the real world, where there is some immunity and mitigation?

    I'm sure I could pass a GCSE in epidemiology now. But not an A Level
    R of 1.94 in a fully vaccinated population would imply a high level of immunity escape, in a poorly vaccinated population it would be around the same Rt as Delta, maybe a bit higher at Rt 8-9 which is not a disaster, at least not for a country like the UK where there are 51m people with some level of vaccination and a further 8-10m with natural immunity.
    Guy on Twitter reckons this data implies that Nu's R0 is close to measles: R16

    You need 95% immunity to suppress measles, we won't get that until we've all got the Nunu, it will infect everyone vulnerable very fast

    Still not a disaster if it is not severe, indeed possibly the end of the pandemic, as you have said
    Amazing what a few tuna nigiri will do to settle the nerves stomach.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    kinabalu said:

    Here’s my current Cabinet ranking

    1. Zahawi
    2. Sharma
    3. Wallace
    4. Rishi
    5. Coffey
    6. Gove
    7. Javid
    8. Kwarteng
    9. Truss
    10. Frost
    11. Shapps
    12. Patel
    12. Raab
    13. Johnson

    Others are unknown / unrated.

    Spooky. It's like you're in my head. Any edits would be pure nitpick.
    I read that as urinated...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Talking of spooky things - Matt Hancock (for it is he) on PM just now felt a bit strange listening to him.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2021
    Update on the case in Belgium. Unvaccinated and developed flu-like symptoms after being infected with Nu but NO WORSE symptoms 11 days after returning from Egypt. NO other symptomatic individuals in their household. https://assets.uzleuven.be/files/2021-11/genomic_surveillance_update_211126.pdf

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464270976410173441?s=20

    Which is interesting - because Delta went through households like a dose of salts....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Gordon Brown here, just doing that lefty thing of ignoring any uncomfortable facts

    "A new Covid variant is no surprise when rich countries are hoarding vaccines

    "Gordon Brown"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/26/new-covid-variant-rich-countries-hoarding-vaccines


    Doesn't mention South Africa selling off its AZ in some mad delusion. Doesn't mention the fact South Africa has 17m jabs waiting in warehouses, but no arms to put them in, because of vaccine refusal. It's all the fault of the rich countries. Of course
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202

    Update on the case in Belgium. Unvaccinated and developed flu-like symptoms after being infected with Nu but NO WORSE symptoms 11 days after returning from Egypt. NO other symptomatic individuals in their household. https://assets.uzleuven.be/files/2021-11/genomic_surveillance_update_211126.pdf

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1464270976410173441?s=20

    Which is interesting - because Delta went through households like a dose of salts....

    It's almost like there's a bunch of panic, and no actual evidence that the new variant is meaningfully worse
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    Selebian said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    Doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

    You'd need the mean time from exposure to infecting others to be ~3 days for that to be ballpark right, wouldn't you (so in three days your 100 can infect ~ 200 and after another three days tey've infected ~400). Which I understood to be definitely on the short side for current variants. It is of course possible that Nu could make people infectious quicker....

    Of course, depends on population studied too - if that Rt is among double vaccinated, say, then the R0 could be much higher depending how effective vaccines are.
    If it makes people infectious earlier, it also means that LFTs will pick it up earlier.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    Uk cases by specimen date

    image
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,746
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    And then this:



    "Ryan Imgrund
    @imgrund
    BREAKING NEWS The effective reproduction number of the B.1.1.529 variant first found in Gauteng Province, South Africa is 1.94.

    R indicated something may have been awry back on October 29th.

    An Rt of 1.94 corresponds to a quadrupling of cases in just six days."


    https://twitter.com/imgrund/status/1464278502656598020?s=20


    We may just luck out and this variant will be extremely infectious, but relatively mild, and the whole fucking kerfuffle finally fizzles out, as new SuperMild NuNu outcompetes its nastier but less viral peers

    I for one shall say a prayer to Gaia

    An Rt of 1.94 is tiny (actually lower than original COVID), Delta has an Rt of 6.5, for example. Is there any further information?
    I'm trying to work out what he means by "effective reproduction number" - presumably it is not pure R, but some kind of R in the real world, where there is some immunity and mitigation?

    I'm sure I could pass a GCSE in epidemiology now. But not an A Level
    R of 1.94 in a fully vaccinated population would imply a high level of immunity escape, in a poorly vaccinated population it would be around the same Rt as Delta, maybe a bit higher at Rt 8-9 which is not a disaster, at least not for a country like the UK where there are 51m people with some level of vaccination and a further 8-10m with natural immunity.
    Guy on Twitter reckons this data implies that Nu's R0 is close to measles: R16

    You need 95% immunity to suppress measles, we won't get that until we've all got the Nunu, it will infect everyone vulnerable very fast

    Still not a disaster if it is not severe, indeed possibly the end of the pandemic, as you have said
    I think there's a point here that at present the available data are small and dirty (likely misclassification of cases as Nu or others - not all samples are sequenced). So we're in German government report on AZN in old people territory, but worse (at least they knew who was old, they just had a tiny sample). Headline estimates of R for Nu might be 1.9 or 16, but the confidence intervals would range from 0 to 1000* or so.

    *Yes, ridiculous, but pick a number, any number, really.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    UK Local R

    image
This discussion has been closed.