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Now there’s talk of a confidence move against BJ – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 23 in General
Now there’s talk of a confidence move against BJ – politicalbetting.com

Boris Johnson in danger as 'a dozen Tory MPs send in letters of no confidence' https://t.co/CF4MO8vfXn

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • First.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274
    Not that likely in my opinion
  • Intriguing that the Eastbourne by election by an act of terrorism and all the parties stood, now they don't in similar circumstances.

    If today's precedent had applied in 1990 would Thatcher have been safe?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    A dozen is well short of the needed total?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,975

    A dozen is well short of the needed total?

    For now
  • Still need another 44 MPs.

    I reckon it won't happen for a while because of events but Boris Johnson's doesn't have much going for him if people conclude he's not a vote winner.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274
    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,925
    edited November 23
    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 15 dated letters.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    edited November 23

    Still need another 44 MPs.

    I reckon it won't happen for a while because of events but Boris Johnson's doesn't have much going for him if people conclude he's not a vote winner.

    Johnson has no serious tranche of supporter MPs. He has no group of believers in his philosophy or political strategy, because he has none.

    When it looks like he's no longer a winner amongst the voting public who pay no attention to politics and still love the whole 'Boris the clown who means well' routine he will be brutally dispatched in scenes not far from an episode of Narcos Mexico.

    I reckon you can count the true Boris believers on one or two hands. They are in the Cabinet or in senior posts.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    Really hope they get rid.
    Absolutely finished if they do. They lose all the folk who think he is Brexit. Plus the ones who think he's a laugh.
    Same crap policies with nobody to sell them.
    Or do folk think they'll be any different?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 12 dated letters.
    If I was designing the process I'd explicitly rule that sort of shenanigan out. It's counted when received, no game playing or strategising it, if you think the leader should go say so and stand by your opinion - it's not like its announced to the world so you don't need to be brave.
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Which according to the Sun is Tory MPs.

    Your point being?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Which according to the Sun is Tory MPs.

    Your point being?
    Lot of Boris haters on here still hoping for his downfall - let's see what happens!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited November 23
    A fly-on-the-wall documentary about Boris Johnson and the whole strange, epochal process of Brexit, to be released 50 years hence like the new Beatles footage to be released this Thursday, would make compelling viewing for the next generation.

    How or why did this happen ? Why him ? Who is this character ?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Which according to the Sun is Tory MPs.

    Your point being?
    Lot of Boris haters on here still hoping for his downfall - let's see what happens!
    Increasingly in the Tory-supporting media, previous Tory PMs, Tory MPs etc etc. Some things are just wrong. And some people will excuse anything when their man does it.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,069
    2/1 at Ladbrooks that BJ will be out in 2022.

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1463268162812719112
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 12 dated letters.
    If I was designing the process I'd explicitly rule that sort of shenanigan out. It's counted when received, no game playing or strategising it, if you think the leader should go say so and stand by your opinion - it's not like its announced to the world so you don't need to be brave.
    iirc Brady will ask people whether they wish to withdraw their 'old' letter should the threshold be crossed. Double checking they still hate the bastard etc etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516

    Intriguing that the Eastbourne by election by an act of terrorism and all the parties stood, now they don't in similar circumstances.

    If today's precedent had applied in 1990 would Thatcher have been safe?

    54% of Tory MPs voted for Thatcher in the first ballot in 1990.

    Under today's no confidence vote rules in the Tory party, Thatcher would have survived and been unchallengeble for a year
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,878
    edited November 23
    It would be interesting to know who any letters are actually from.

    What seems clear from recent events is that the old fart Conservative MPs have seriously miscalculated as to both the political mood in the country and to their own influence within the party.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    edited November 23
    dr_spyn said:

    2/1 at Ladbrooks that BJ will be out in 2022.

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1463268162812719112

    What Conservative percentage in the OB&S by election will move that price up? What percentage will move it down?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    edited November 23
    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer by 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    Yes. The speculation over the number of no confidence letters sent to Brady could last for longer than traitorous speculation over the Queen's health.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Which according to the Sun is Tory MPs.

    Your point being?
    Lot of Boris haters on here still hoping for his downfall - let's see what happens!
    Increasingly in the Tory-supporting media, previous Tory PMs, Tory MPs etc etc. Some things are just wrong. And some people will excuse anything when their man does it.
    Does this mean that you are not quite ready to complete your journey from LAB > LD > CON yet?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    It would be interesting to know who any letters are actually from.

    What seems clear from recent events is that the old fart Conservative MPs have seriously miscalculated as to both the political mood in the country and to their own influence within the party.

    I think they prefer to be known as 'grandees' rather than 'old farts'.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
    Who mentioned Labour?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
  • It's evident to me that Corbyn was a disaster - and I say this of course in hindsight but I am prepared to say so.

    There are many Tories here who think Johnson is a disaster, perhaps they're worth listening to and respecting rather than being told they're fake Tories, or "Boris haters"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 12 dated letters.
    If I was designing the process I'd explicitly rule that sort of shenanigan out. It's counted when received, no game playing or strategising it, if you think the leader should go say so and stand by your opinion - it's not like its announced to the world so you don't need to be brave.
    iirc Brady will ask people whether they wish to withdraw their 'old' letter should the threshold be crossed. Double checking they still hate the bastard etc etc.
    Pretty dodgy really. It's one thing if they get cold feet of their own accord and seek to withdraw their letter, but it's putting pressure on MPs to defend the leader to go to them and effectively say 'Look, we're about to hit the threshold - do you really want us to have a vote now? With the locals coming up?" etc etc

    Will persuade some to ignore their own misgivings because it is not the 'time' for a fight.
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Which according to the Sun is Tory MPs.

    Your point being?
    Lot of Boris haters on here still hoping for his downfall - let's see what happens!
    Increasingly in the Tory-supporting media, previous Tory PMs, Tory MPs etc etc. Some things are just wrong. And some people will excuse anything when their man does it.
    Does this mean that you are not quite ready to complete your journey from LAB > LD > CON yet?
    Others believe my destination is the SNP...

    Point is that my "boris hating" is not partisan. I am not ramping Labour nor do I expect them to win the next election. We need politics that works, and right now it is broken. The Prime Minister of the UK should not embarrass the country at the UN by making a climate speech scribbled together on the train to New York that goes on about Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy. Should not patronise the CBI after their heroic efforts battling Covid with "hands up who's been to Peppa Pig World.

    We have standards in this country. OK, some of us have standards.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609
    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Yep. That fabled charisma is looking more than a bit soiled now isn't it?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    I welcome there are a few Boris die hards around. Prevents an echo chamber.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Well, not the most scientific test, but I see where you are coming from.

    Pascal was on about t-cells on R4 this morning I believe.

    And:

    "The Telegraph understands that the pharmaceutical company is preparing to release data showing that its jab offers long term T-cell immunity for older people even after antibodies wane. Mr Soriot said the immunity provided by T-cells may be "more durable"."

    Telegraph (tonight)
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
  • kle4 said:

    It would be interesting to know who any letters are actually from.

    What seems clear from recent events is that the old fart Conservative MPs have seriously miscalculated as to both the political mood in the country and to their own influence within the party.

    I think they prefer to be known as 'grandees' rather than 'old farts'.
    A grandee is a Spanish nobleman:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Grandees_of_Spain

    Whereas Chope, Paterson, Swaine etc are old farts.

    All need clearing out and certainly not to the HoL.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Is there a strong word than schadenfreude?

    We might need it, if it turns out that the BRITISH Oxford jab is way better long term than any other. :smiley:
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 12 dated letters.
    If I was designing the process I'd explicitly rule that sort of shenanigan out. It's counted when received, no game playing or strategising it, if you think the leader should go say so and stand by your opinion - it's not like its announced to the world so you don't need to be brave.
    iirc Brady will ask people whether they wish to withdraw their 'old' letter should the threshold be crossed. Double checking they still hate the bastard etc etc.
    Pretty dodgy really. It's one thing if they get cold feet of their own accord and seek to withdraw their letter, but it's putting pressure on MPs to defend the leader to go to them and effectively say 'Look, we're about to hit the threshold - do you really want us to have a vote now? With the locals coming up?" etc etc

    Will persuade some to ignore their own misgivings because it is not the 'time' for a fight.
    It would be fair enough if he went to the other MPs and said "are you sure you haven't had enough of this nonsense?"
    A non-zero chance he'd get a letter from the Right Hon member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
    What value do you think that Starmer would add as PM? Or his 'high quality' shadow cabinet?
  • As usual, I just wonder the response from the faithful, if a Labour leader was behaving as Johnson was. In fact we know, they called Corbyn out enough
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
    Who mentioned Labour?
    They are the key.

    Thatcher only went in 1990 because she clearly trailed Kinnock, IDS also only went in 2003 as he trailed Blair.

    Unless Starmer clearly and consistently leads Boris, Boris will survive. It is as simple as that
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    ….
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,581

    It's evident to me that Corbyn was a disaster - and I say this of course in hindsight but I am prepared to say so.

    There are many Tories here who think Johnson is a disaster, perhaps they're worth listening to and respecting rather than being told they're fake Tories, or "Boris haters"

    Johnson’s usefulness is over. He won a huge majority, achieved a version o& Brexit. Charitably he may have followed the best path for Covid in opening up in July and not panicking recently. But that’s it. It’s time for an adult to have a go at running the country. I don’t really care who, just not Johnson. Time for him to go and earn stupid sums of cash doing other stuff.
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    You mean on here?

    Based on the evidence (for example, briefing/leaking) the REAL Boris haters are in the cabinet.
  • Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
    What value do you think that Starmer would add as PM? Or his 'high quality' shadow cabinet?
    You aren't listening. This isn't about Starmer or Labour. This is about the Tories. Plenty of other people could be Prime Minister who aren't a disgrace to the office.

    We used to have standards. Apparently you don't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,581

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Well, not the most scientific test, but I see where you are coming from.

    Pascal was on about t-cells on R4 this morning I believe.

    And:

    "The Telegraph understands that the pharmaceutical company is preparing to release data showing that its jab offers long term T-cell immunity for older people even after antibodies wane. Mr Soriot said the immunity provided by T-cells may be "more durable"."

    Telegraph (tonight)
    Shock! The immune system isn’t just antibodies? Who knew? Don’t tell Prof Pesto.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
    What value do you think that Starmer would add as PM? Or his 'high quality' shadow cabinet?
    You aren't listening. This isn't about Starmer or Labour. This is about the Tories. Plenty of other people could be Prime Minister who aren't a disgrace to the office.

    We used to have standards. Apparently you don't.
    43% of voters did not think Boris was a disgrace to the office when they re elected him in 2019, even if you loathed him then and still loathe him now.

    As long as Boris is at least level with Labour then he is not going anywhere
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
    What value do you think that Starmer would add as PM? Or his 'high quality' shadow cabinet?
    Honesty?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.
    What value do you think that Starmer would add as PM? Or his 'high quality' shadow cabinet?
    You aren't listening. This isn't about Starmer or Labour. This is about the Tories. Plenty of other people could be Prime Minister who aren't a disgrace to the office.

    We used to have standards. Apparently you don't.
    LOL I think my standards are higher than yours. Still keep on dreaming...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Standard partisan bilge from you. I don’t hate Boris. He’s just an embarrassment.

    Do you think he graces the office of prime minister?
    Usual high quality response from you :lol:
    We do note that you aren't answering the question though.

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    For 'a dozen' read probably about 2-3. Or it was a dozen, but sent to their own inbox.

    I wonder if they did what they did in 2003 when a few Tory MPs sent letters to Sir Michael Spicer, undated, and told him to date them when he received 12 dated letters.
    If I was designing the process I'd explicitly rule that sort of shenanigan out. It's counted when received, no game playing or strategising it, if you think the leader should go say so and stand by your opinion - it's not like its announced to the world so you don't need to be brave.
    iirc Brady will ask people whether they wish to withdraw their 'old' letter should the threshold be crossed. Double checking they still hate the bastard etc etc.
    Sir Graham Brady Old Lady is a disgrace to his office. It has long been known that he cannot count - a prerequisite of the job - nor locate his top drawer, another key duty.

    Now we hear that he second guesses his correspondents.

    The Old Lady is for turning.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,544
    edited November 23
    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Polling vs PB Tory anecdote, copyright tim 2010-15
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
    Who mentioned Labour?
    They are the key.

    Thatcher only went in 1990 because she clearly trailed Kinnock, IDS also only went in 2003 as he trailed Blair.

    Unless Starmer clearly and consistently leads Boris, Boris will survive. It is as simple as that
    Won't he also survive, even with a Labour lead, unless an alternative polls much better than him?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Isn’t it more that pretty much everyone that qualified for it has already had it?
  • "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.

    The May situation was a bit different. Her downfall was ultimately because she couldn't get the only bit of her agenda that mattered through Parliament. However loud the grumbling, and however grudging the support, Johnson has a fairly big majority and isn't going to have that problem over the course of the year, even if he's severely weakened.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    That’s what I’ll be having. The connoisseur’s cocktail!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    Giuseppe wins Bake Off. Well deserved but there'll always be that question of whether Jurgen would have won if he hadn't been booted out in the semi final.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
    They used data from the COV-BOOST trial.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
    Who mentioned Labour?
    They are the key.

    Thatcher only went in 1990 because she clearly trailed Kinnock, IDS also only went in 2003 as he trailed Blair.

    Unless Starmer clearly and consistently leads Boris, Boris will survive. It is as simple as that
    Won't he also survive, even with a Labour lead, unless an alternative polls much better than him?
    That too.

    That was what saved Major pre 1997, Heseltine, Portillo and Redwood did not poll any better v Blair than he did
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,163
    edited November 23
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    Boris haters are more in line with public opinion than Boris fanbois:
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating
    Does not mean they prefer Labour though, latest poll has the Tories and Labour tied on 37% each

    Voters also prefer Boris to Starmer 41% to 32%, they only prefer Sunak to Starmer by 39% to 32%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-21-november-2021/
    Who mentioned Labour?
    They are the key.

    Thatcher only went in 1990 because she clearly trailed Kinnock, IDS also only went in 2003 as he trailed Blair.

    Unless Starmer clearly and consistently leads Boris, Boris will survive. It is as simple as that
    Won't he also survive, even with a Labour lead, unless an alternative polls much better than him?
    That too.

    That was what saved Major pre 1997, Heseltine, Portillo and Redwood did not poll any better v Blair than he did
    Fair point. The level of talent in the Parliamentary Tory Party is so woeful that there is perhaps nobody better than Boris at the moment - a truly chastening thought. What a steaming pile of utter shite the party is currently, you are absolutely right about that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266

    "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.

    The May situation was a bit different. Her downfall was ultimately because she couldn't get the only bit of her agenda that mattered through Parliament. However loud the grumbling, and however grudging the support, Johnson has a fairly big majority and isn't going to have that problem over the course of the year, even if he's severely weakened.
    We had the discussion about changing the rules to allow another confidence vote. If there was a solid majority against the party leader they'd be able to push a rule change through.

    What the letters to Brady allows is for a minority of MPs who have lost confidence in the leader to make their case to all the others in the open. Unless the leader wins the confidence motion very heavily, isolating the disaffected minority, it will mean that the issue of confidence in the leader never goes away.

    Although it's unlikely to be tested enough times to say definitively one way or the other, my guess is that a large majority of Conservative party leaders who don't win the confidence vote with >75% of the vote will end up losing the leadership before the year is out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,516

    "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.

    The May situation was a bit different. Her downfall was ultimately because she couldn't get the only bit of her agenda that mattered through Parliament. However loud the grumbling, and however grudging the support, Johnson has a fairly big majority and isn't going to have that problem over the course of the year, even if he's severely weakened.
    We had the discussion about changing the rules to allow another confidence vote. If there was a solid majority against the party leader they'd be able to push a rule change through.

    What the letters to Brady allows is for a minority of MPs who have lost confidence in the leader to make their case to all the others in the open. Unless the leader wins the confidence motion very heavily, isolating the disaffected minority, it will mean that the issue of confidence in the leader never goes away.

    Although it's unlikely to be tested enough times to say definitively one way or the other, my guess is that a large majority of Conservative party leaders who don't win the confidence vote with >75% of the vote will end up losing the leadership before the year is out.
    Only 66% of Tory MPs voted for Major in the 1995 Tory leadership election, yet he survived until 1997
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited November 23

    "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.

    The May situation was a bit different. Her downfall was ultimately because she couldn't get the only bit of her agenda that mattered through Parliament. However loud the grumbling, and however grudging the support, Johnson has a fairly big majority and isn't going to have that problem over the course of the year, even if he's severely weakened.
    On the other hand, May didn't seem to need such a strong figure internally, at the very top near her, and within her Downing Street operation, as Johnson. He's never seemed to have been the same without Cummings.

    To extend the possibly counter-intuitive and bizarre Beatles analogy a step further, as on the one hand, I don't think Johnson has been a a positive influence on the UK as they were, but on the other am intrigued to see what is described as their "real story" coming up on TV this week, he's lost his Brian Epstein. May was a devout and ordered Christian traditionalist whose downfall was almost too much robotic order and self-organisation, not too little.
  • kinabalu said:

    Giuseppe wins Bake Off. Well deserved but there'll always be that question of whether Jurgen would have won if he hadn't been booted out in the semi final.

    I want to bake free
    I want to bake free
    I want to bake free from your pies
    You're dough self-satisfied
    I don't kneed you
    I want to bake free
    Cod knows
    Cod knows I want to bake free
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899
    kle4 said:

    I welcome there are a few Boris die hards around. Prevents an echo chamber.

    I also welcome there are a few Boris die hards around. Prevents an... oh. ;-)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
    They used data from the COV-BOOST trial.

    Are there any published data on efficacy? I can only find reports on initial side effects of boosters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899

    Unusually for me, I'm with the HYUFD and Isam gang who think talk of Boris's demise is premature (although I differ in that I want rid of him). It's far too early to tell whether this is mid-term blues or something more seismic.

    I strongly suspect that Tory MPs will hold their fire unless/until there is a reasonably prolonged period in which the Tories have a significant deficit in the opinion polls. I'm also more dubious than many that, if he does have to go, his replacement will fare any better.

    Unfortunately, I think that first point's right.

    Happily, I think the last point is also right.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,266
    "There’s little doubt that the past few weeks have been the worst for BJ since he got the job..."

    This may be true, but the same was said of Tony Blair in November 1997, and he spent another nine and a half years as Prime Minister. It was said so often that it became a running gag. When you start from such a high starting point as an 80-seat majority you can have many "worst weeks" before the situation becomes terminal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Unusually for me, I'm with the HYUFD and Isam gang who think talk of Boris's demise is premature (although I differ in that I want rid of him). It's far too early to tell whether this is mid-term blues or something more seismic.

    I strongly suspect that Tory MPs will hold their fire unless/until there is a reasonably prolonged period in which the Tories have a significant deficit in the opinion polls. I'm also more dubious than many that, if he does have to go, his replacement will fare any better.

    It would have to be a pretty rapid decline for him to be gone in 2022. The stench of a dead leader walking is usually around for a year or more before they are finally put out of our misery, and that starts to get rather close to the next GE.

    I think it will be Starmer vs Johnson at the GE, and that that will be no sooner than 2 years away.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited November 23

    "There’s little doubt that the past few weeks have been the worst for BJ since he got the job..."

    This may be true, but the same was said of Tony Blair in November 1997, and he spent another nine and a half years as Prime Minister. It was said so often that it became a running gag. When you start from such a high starting point as an 80-seat majority you can have many "worst weeks" before the situation becomes terminal.

    Alastair Campbell was there with him every step of the way, though.

    I found it very striking that the counter-briefing yesterday seemed to start from *inside* no.10 first, and then extend outward, first to the cabinet, and then other Tory MP's.

    This dynamic doesn't remind me of May or Blair, or any other Prime Ministers, and again to me seems to point to the crucial point of him having lost his partner in crime from Vote Leave.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
    They used data from the COV-BOOST trial.

    Are there any published data on efficacy? I can only find reports on initial side effects of boosters.
    John Burn-Murdoch at the FT has produced some good charts from the UK government's own data, showing Pfizer efficacy beating AZ at six months.

    That being said, the evidence has been clear for some time that mixing and matching vaccines elicits the strongest immune response, so AZ-AZ-Pfizer may be the best of all worlds.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
    They used data from the COV-BOOST trial.

    Are there any published data on efficacy? I can only find reports on initial side effects of boosters.
    They had their booster five months ago now, so I'm sure they have a lot to go on. Just because us plebs don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    Just back from watching Chelsea thrash Juventus at Stamford Bridge.

    I have seldom seen an English team so completely dominant against a storied European club. They are in a different league (literally and metaphorically)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    You've got to feel sorry for everyone in the EU with all that senseless scaremongering surrounding AZ.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    Abandoned by our government now.
    Indeed. But a) they claim the JCVI has data to show AZx 2 + a Pfizer boost is best b) they had a ton of spare Pfizer shots in the freezer.
    I don't think there can be data on that yet. Boosters only started in September, and there needs to be a couple of weeks for it to work. That leaves only about six weeks or so of exposure. Not enough time to generate that sort of data, let alone analyse it and draw conclusions.
    They used data from the COV-BOOST trial.

    Are there any published data on efficacy? I can only find reports on initial side effects of boosters.
    They had their booster five months ago now, so I'm sure they have a lot to go on. Just because us plebs don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    I object to the word pleb. I'm a bumpkin, thank you very much.

    On the efficacy stuff, it does feel a bit soon, from a bumpkin pov, and there's still an element of 'which country is best' sneaking through a bit. I don't think most people will notice the difference of a few percent here and there though.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,791
    edited November 23
    HYUFD said:

    "The upside for the leader is that if he/she survives a vote then there cannot be another challenge for a year."

    In practice that provision is about as meaningful as the FTPA as May demonstrated in both cases.

    A confidence vote was won by May in December 2018, but she was forced to announce her resignation in May 2019 once it had become clear that the whole country had lost confidence in her.

    Ultimately if confidence is lost no bureaucratic rule will be of any use.

    The May situation was a bit different. Her downfall was ultimately because she couldn't get the only bit of her agenda that mattered through Parliament. However loud the grumbling, and however grudging the support, Johnson has a fairly big majority and isn't going to have that problem over the course of the year, even if he's severely weakened.
    We had the discussion about changing the rules to allow another confidence vote. If there was a solid majority against the party leader they'd be able to push a rule change through.

    What the letters to Brady allows is for a minority of MPs who have lost confidence in the leader to make their case to all the others in the open. Unless the leader wins the confidence motion very heavily, isolating the disaffected minority, it will mean that the issue of confidence in the leader never goes away.

    Although it's unlikely to be tested enough times to say definitively one way or the other, my guess is that a large majority of Conservative party leaders who don't win the confidence vote with >75% of the vote will end up losing the leadership before the year is out.
    Only 66% of Tory MPs voted for Major in the 1995 Tory leadership election, yet he survived until 1997
    Indeed, and May survived for quite some time *after* the 2017 election debacle and subsequent Brexit deadlock.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,755
    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    RobD said:

    Up yours Delores. Or whoever is running France these days...



    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    16m
    Wednesday’s Daily TELEGRAPH: “AstraZeneca vaccine may give longer protection” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    I said on these pages many moons ago that AZ would probably end up being the best of the jabs. It was crystal clear from the hardcore reaction I got from it that it was some zingy shit.
    You've got to feel sorry for everyone in the EU with all that senseless scaremongering surrounding AZ.
    Here's the data from the UK government on Pfizer and AZ efficacy:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1460313047529103365

    Pfizer is better in a two dose regime, but in a post-booster world, it's all much of a muchness.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,454

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Quite a surge round here and especially in Guildford this week, apparently - not sure why. The main hospital has been restricting non-Covid cases to extreme need for some time now.
  • rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    Germany just passed 100,000 dead. Meaningless but emotionally symbolic
  • @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Quite a surge round here and especially in Guildford this week, apparently - not sure why. The main hospital has been restricting non-Covid cases to extreme need for some time now.
    Well there were 15 covid patients last week in your NHS trust:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nhsTrust&areaName=Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust

    so perhaps it should get back to normal and restrict the anti-vaxxers to extreme need instead.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    The peak was 6,000 in March 2020 - you need to expand the graph out.

    For ICU, the difference is even more stark - roughly 5x between March 2020 and now.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    The peak was 6,000 in March 2020 - you need to expand the graph out.

    For ICU, the difference is even more stark - roughly 5x between March 2020 and now.
    The peak in March 2020 is 3,284 and it says the data is not precise.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    The peak was 6,000 in March 2020 - you need to expand the graph out.

    For ICU, the difference is even more stark - roughly 5x between March 2020 and now.
    The peak in March 2020 is 3,284 and it says the data is not precise.
    The data is downloadable as a csv and peaked at slightly over 6,000 in early 2020. Tomorrow I'll copy it into a Google sheet.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,878
    edited November 24
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    The peak was 6,000 in March 2020 - you need to expand the graph out.

    For ICU, the difference is even more stark - roughly 5x between March 2020 and now.
    The peak in March 2020 is 3,284 and it says the data is not precise.
    The data is downloadable as a csv and peaked at slightly over 6,000 in early 2020. Tomorrow I'll copy it into a Google sheet.
    The graph clearly shows a peak at just over 3k in March 2020:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames

    Our World in Data shows likewise:

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-hospital?country=NLD
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @BNODesk
    Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch association for ICU doctors, calls for a hard lockdown as cases continue to rise, says hospitals are approaching "Code Black". Code black means hospitals have exhausted ICU capacity and doctors have to choose who gets treatment.


    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1463288538800267270

    Although according to both Google and the Netherlands own website, the number of patients in ICU with covid in the Netherlands are about 80% below peak:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames
    By the looks of the graphs the Netherlands has 2,052 covid patients (excluding ICU) currently with the peak being 2,159 in 5th January.

    So somewhat worse than the UK currently but with a rapidly worsening situation.
    The peak was 6,000 in March 2020 - you need to expand the graph out.

    For ICU, the difference is even more stark - roughly 5x between March 2020 and now.
    The peak in March 2020 is 3,284 and it says the data is not precise.
    The data is downloadable as a csv and peaked at slightly over 6,000 in early 2020. Tomorrow I'll copy it into a Google sheet.
    The graph clearly shows a peak at just over 3k in March 2020:

    https://coronadashboard.government.nl/landelijk/ziekenhuis-opnames

    Our World in Data shows likewise:

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-hospital?country=NLD
    You and I don't argue much, so I wonder if I've got it wrong, but I downloaded the dataset direct from the Netherlands webpage (albeit I'm from my phone in bed right now).

    I will double check tomorrow morning. My number, fwiw, is both ICU and regular.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,023

    "There’s little doubt that the past few weeks have been the worst for BJ since he got the job..."

    This may be true, but the same was said of Tony Blair in November 1997, and he spent another nine and a half years as Prime Minister. It was said so often that it became a running gag. When you start from such a high starting point as an 80-seat majority you can have many "worst weeks" before the situation becomes terminal.

    Alastair Campbell was there with him every step of the way, though.

    I found it very striking that the counter-briefing yesterday seemed to start from *inside* no.10 first, and then extend outward, first to the cabinet, and then other Tory MP's.

    This dynamic doesn't remind me of May or Blair, or any other Prime Ministers, and again to me seems to point to the crucial point of him having lost his partner in crime from Vote Leave.
    I sense no appetite within the Conservatives to start bloodletting, Boris is a serial philanderer and will plead forgiveness and get it (as he has done many times in the past)... 2022 needs to see some sort of shift which if no progress seen by early summer/May elections I think is more likely to herald a challenge (or a face saving resignation - he's not looking well....health grounds is a genuine possibility)
  • AslanAslan Posts: 733
    Leon said:

    Just back from watching Chelsea thrash Juventus at Stamford Bridge.

    I have seldom seen an English team so completely dominant against a storied European club. They are in a different league (literally and metaphorically)

    Given how well Chelsea's system works, you have to think James and Chilwell will be England's wingbacks in a 3-4-3 at the World Cup.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,320

    Don't stop believing Boris haters! :lol:

    You mean on here?

    Based on the evidence (for example, briefing/leaking) the REAL Boris haters are in the cabinet.
    Could be the same people.
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