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Some by-election sensations from yesteryear – politicalbetting.com

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  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    stodge said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Also well done @malcolmg for tipping Buzz over another posters tips which were beaten one soundly.

    Thank you Topping.
    Have I missed a winning 4 legger from you, Malcolm?
    I got a nice Trixie last Sunday , 11/4, 3/1 and 100/30 had forgotten to check and only noticed this morning. I got one today as well but they were all short prices.
    Adds up though if they all come in. My fav acca bet is 5 horses into 10 trebles. It's a good low cost way of sustaining interest through a card with that chance of a big result if things click. Sense of growing excitement if say 2 of the first 3 win. Course if the first 3 lose that's not such a great scenario. You then have to lump on the last 2 as singles just in case.
    I have noted This 2m 3f is the longest distance Buzz has won over, and despite good pressure from the front still found the finish.
    My favourite bet is the Patent or a Lucky 15 if I'm feeling ambitious.

    BUZZ won the Cesarewitch at Newmarket over two and a quarter miles last time. Today's trip was never going to be a problem on the decent ground. You could see him as a real prospect for the Stayers Hurdle (or the World Hurdle as I think it's now called) at Cheltenham if the ground is on the quick side.

    I'm less convinced about him on a soft or heavy surface.

    Performance of the day was A PLUS TARD at Haydock - a real marker for the Gold Cup.
    Thanks. 🙂

    Lovely Yorkshire’s Stodge!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    I think they are holding Isreal to the standards of a European nation, and holding everyone else in the region to the standards of... Saudi Arabia?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100

    The health secretary has begun a review into racial bias in medical equipment amid fears that thousands of ethnic-minority patients died of Covid-19 who should have survived.

    Sajid Javid is working with his American counterpart, Xavier Becerra, on introducing new international standards to ensure that medical devices have been tested on all races before they are allowed to be sold.

    He has commissioned the review after research showed that oximeters, which monitor oxygen levels in the blood and are used to assess whether Covid-19 patients need lifesaving treatment, are less accurate on people with darker skin.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sajid-javid-orders-racial-bias-review-after-covid-deaths-wxtsbsxdc

    Fuck me. They work by shining a little blue light through your finger. The idea they might not work so well in someone with a darker skin tone than mine is hardly fucking rocket science.
    Very good basic questions.

    I wonder if there's much unconscious bias involved.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Which seat (in whole or substantial) has had the most by-elections?

    Good question, not really googlable. I'd say any more than 3 would be exceptional.
    A related question: which seat has gone the longest since it’s last by-election? Are there any that have never had one? (Obviously squinting for boundary changes here)
    And which mainland seat was represented by a DUP MP?
    Basingstoke.
    You only know that cos I told you last time
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    I think they are holding Isreal to the standards of a European nation, and holding everyone else in the region to the standards of... Saudi Arabia?
    Saudi Arabia has standards? It's kept that secret.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100
    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.
    But it's self-hate in a hall of fairground mirrors :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Which seat (in whole or substantial) has had the most by-elections?

    Good question, not really googlable. I'd say any more than 3 would be exceptional.
    A related question: which seat has gone the longest since it’s last by-election? Are there any that have never had one? (Obviously squinting for boundary changes here)
    And which mainland seat was represented by a DUP MP?
    Basingstoke.
    You only know that cos I told you last time
    Not nearly as good as Liverpool Scotland which was represented by the last Irish Nationalist MP in the Commons.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._P._O'Connor
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    edited November 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    I think they are holding Isreal to the standards of a European nation, and holding everyone else in the region to the standards of... Saudi Arabia?
    Saudi Arabia has standards? It's kept that secret.
    You jest sir.

    They have complex, detailed, legally codified standards on how to treat gay people, women etc. And they are quite punctilious in the treatment of same.*

    *Unless the person in question is someone of note in the Royal House, of course.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    You don't seem to have got as far as my comment at 10:03 in which I clearly consider anti-semitism as racism

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including racism. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments"

    And later on where I make clear that we should have no further role in the Israel/Palestine dispute at 10:35

    "Not a word that I have ever encountered. Certainly sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians does spill over to anti-semitism.

    Personally I think that British influence and actions in the Middle East over the last Century or so have been a litany of mistakes in which we have managed to offend all sides. We should steer clear of any further involvement."

    I know that you habitually mis-represent my views on a variety of issues, but to make it perfectly clear, I consider anti-semitism as bad as any other form of racism. I just do not favour "cancelling" people, but rather rebutting their prejudices.

    Here's your view.

    "I thought Thangam Debbonaire quite brilliant in the debate. She is one to watch and a future Leader candidate. I do have a soft spot for Sultana, apart from the usual anti-semitic blind spot. She has quite a strong twitter and tiktok following. She is likely to be the hard left candidate in the next contest."

    A soft spot for an anti-Semite.
    A soft spot for her views on other subjects quite obviously. That is why I specifically excluded her anti-semitism.
    But, as they say, substitute another ethnic group and see how that sounds.

    You do not even seem to see anti Semitism as worthy of anything other than a mild tut.
    Not at all. I don't cancel people for other forms of racism either. Nor a bunch of other prejudices including Transphobia, Islamophobia etc etc.
    Tut-tut - how's @Leon going to manage to categorise you in the Wokist pigeon-hole with attitudes like that?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100

    Charles said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Which seat (in whole or substantial) has had the most by-elections?

    Good question, not really googlable. I'd say any more than 3 would be exceptional.
    Bootle had two in 1990 so could be high on the 'all time' list.
    Can anyone beat Corby which had four different MPs between March 2010 and May 2015?
    Don’t start me on Louise f***ing Bradshawe.
    Who the f*** was she? A maths teacher, good on the times tables?
    She was an one of Cameron's A-listers - a chick-lit novelist who posted here a few times. Before her infamy as a "platinum grade troll"
    Although she has a degree from the House.

    And Career Girls was an amusing read as I knew most of the characters
    Wait, was Topaz Rossi based on you?
    Who has sold more?

    Bagshawe or Dorries?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Which seat (in whole or substantial) has had the most by-elections?

    Good question, not really googlable. I'd say any more than 3 would be exceptional.
    Bootle had two in 1990 so could be high on the 'all time' list.
    Can anyone beat Corby which had four different MPs between March 2010 and May 2015?
    Don’t start me on Louise f***ing Bradshawe.
    Who the f*** was she? A maths teacher, good on the times tables?
    She was an one of Cameron's A-listers - a chick-lit novelist who posted here a few times. Before her infamy as a "platinum grade troll"
    Although she has a degree from the House.

    And Career Girls was an amusing read as I knew most of the characters
    Colleges don't award degrees.
    I know. I was making a more generic point that she was smart
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Bloody hell. Deep.
    It's been fairly commonly observed that Israel is being critiqued in the context of being a "Western" nation, rather than a "Middle Eastern" one.
    Which doesn't map to self-hatred.
    If the people involved are negative nationalists, then it would.


    Negative Nationalism

    1. Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell or when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, ‘enlightened’ opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.


    https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/
    Worth reading his essay on English Antisemitism too:

    https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/antisemitism-in-britain/

    Including this interesting comment:

    "All I would say with confidence is that antisemitism is part of the larger problem of nationalism, which has not yet been seriously examined, and that the Jew is evidently a scapegoat"

  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Evening all :)

    On topic, I have to confess I was only involved in one of the above:

    Newbury 1993 - I canvassed and delivered some leaflets for David Rendel in Thatcham around some of the 1980s housing estates which were swinging strongly LD. I had no idea the final result would be as it was.

    I didn't get involved in Christchurch - I wasn't living in East London in the mid-90s so while I now live next door to Barking, I wasn't at that time. I lived in Bromley in the 80s and some of the Liberal activists I knew when I started out in politics had campaigned in Orpington which had by then acquired an almost legendary status.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Arthur Scargill and the miners?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Magnificently portrayed here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Arthur Scargill and the miners?
    1984 vs 1984.
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/20/fresh-prospect-of-criminal-inquiry-for-boris-johnson-after-jennifer-arcuri-agrees-to-assist-ethics-watchdog

    More potential trouble for the PM in that grey area of sexual and ethical misbehaviour that he seems to find himself straying into repeatedly, like a dog returning to its sick.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Arthur Scargill and the miners?
    1984 vs 1984.
    D'you mean Nineteen Eighty-Four?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Beats me, but I wouldn't claim to speak for "The Left"!

    I think there are a number of reasons, including transparent anti-semitism. Israel is seen as an American client state, it is seen as a relic of colonialism (at least in the occupied territories) it is seen as a bully, etc etc.

    I ran a teaching course for a Palestinian hospital in the West Bank some years ago. Israel is a fascinating place, full of contradictions where the most liberal of ideas sit alongside some of the most archaic and oppressive.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Arthur Scargill and the miners?
    Arthur Scargill permavictim is certainly a challenging thesis.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Hardwired in their psyche. Who was the Daily Hate against in 1984?
    Arthur Scargill and the miners?
    1984 vs 1984.
    D'you mean Nineteen Eighty-Four?
    Not in so many words.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Beats me, but I wouldn't claim to speak for "The Left"!

    I think there are a number of reasons, including transparent anti-semitism. Israel is seen as an American client state, it is seen as a relic of colonialism (at least in the occupied territories) it is seen as a bully, etc etc.

    I ran a teaching course for a Palestinian hospital in the West Bank some years ago. Israel is a fascinating place, full of contradictions where the most liberal of ideas sit alongside some of the most archaic and oppressive.
    Sounds like Israel is a microcosm of humanity then
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Beats me, but I wouldn't claim to speak for "The Left"!

    I think there are a number of reasons, including transparent anti-semitism. Israel is seen as an American client state, it is seen as a relic of colonialism (at least in the occupied territories) it is seen as a bully, etc etc.

    I ran a teaching course for a Palestinian hospital in the West Bank some years ago. Israel is a fascinating place, full of contradictions where the most liberal of ideas sit alongside some of the most archaic and oppressive.
    Sounds like Israel is a microcosm of humanity then
    Yes, perhaps unsurprisingly, as it is constituted of peoples gathered from many countries.



  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,603
    edited November 2021
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former Labour Party members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the "right" (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,773

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    As we were discussing the re-imposition of restrictions in Austria yesterday, we now have the latest polling:

    Changes from the 2019 election:

    Social Democrats: 25% (+4)
    People's Party: 24% (-13)
    Freedom Party: 20% (+4)
    Greens: 13% (-1)
    New Economic Forum: 10% (+2)
    People, Freedoms, Basic Rights (MFG): 3% (+3)

    MFG was set up as an anti-lockdown anti-vaccine passport party and polled 6% in the last survey but has lost ground to the Freedom Party who has reaped the benefit and is now back in a strong third place after the disastrous collapse in the 2019 election following the Ibiza Affair and the fall of Hans Christian Strache.

    The new leader, Herbert Kickl, has benefitted from the problems of the People's Party-Green coalition.

    The People's Party remains in the doldrums after the departure of Kurz as Chancellor (he remains Party leader).

    The other beneficiaries seem to be the Social Democrats under Pamela Rendi-Wagner, whose political career looked to be on the rocks after the dreadful 2019 election result but is now enjoying a renaissance.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Beats me, but I wouldn't claim to speak for "The Left"!

    I think there are a number of reasons, including transparent anti-semitism. Israel is seen as an American client state, it is seen as a relic of colonialism (at least in the occupied territories) it is seen as a bully, etc etc.

    I ran a teaching course for a Palestinian hospital in the West Bank some years ago. Israel is a fascinating place, full of contradictions where the most liberal of ideas sit alongside some of the most archaic and oppressive.
    Sounds like Israel is a microcosm of humanity then
    It is. The good, the bad, the anything. Lose the corruption and the religious hatred, and then all the other stuff. Then we're fixed - it is exactly your microcosm. Now we need to work out where we go with that.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,861
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
  • kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Omnium said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.

    sorry, i forgot to add, if i was a palestinian i would look at the quality of life in Israel and then the surrounding countries and choose an israeli life that allows me to follow my religion and drop the dogma immediately. seriously - israeli standard of life and freedoms or Egypt, Syria, Irag etc etc....
    Beats me, but I wouldn't claim to speak for "The Left"!

    I think there are a number of reasons, including transparent anti-semitism. Israel is seen as an American client state, it is seen as a relic of colonialism (at least in the occupied territories) it is seen as a bully, etc etc.

    I ran a teaching course for a Palestinian hospital in the West Bank some years ago. Israel is a fascinating place, full of contradictions where the most liberal of ideas sit alongside some of the most archaic and oppressive.
    Sounds like Israel is a microcosm of humanity then
    It is. The good, the bad, the anything. Lose the corruption and the religious hatred, and then all the other stuff. Then we're fixed - it is exactly your microcosm. Now we need to work out where we go with that.
    South Africa used to have a tourist slogan of "A world in one country" and that is equally true. It too can be a disconcerting place to visit with plush hotels beloved of the likes of SeanT alongside desperate poverty and degradation. But is it any more honorable to live in such luxury 10 000 miles from such wretchedness as 1 mile?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    Slavery in England was abolished by the Synod of Westminster in 1102.
  • kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    Presumably that is assuming (reasonmably enough) that 'apprenticeship' was glorified slavery? I can't see how it works otherwise.
  • Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    Not just in Germany.
  • Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
    And as for the Conservative and Unionist party..
  • Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    Nimbyism.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,773
    Whilst on the subject of everyone’s favourite lefty, Hitler, has anyone listened to “Nuremberg” on bbc sounds?

    I usually hate dramatised history - no time for a drone camera flying over a Tudor stately home whilst crap actors in dress swan around trying to make the documentary interesting because there is only about five minutes of actual info.

    So I started listening as something to sleep to thinking “oh god it’s a drama/talking book” but bugger me it was amazing. The fact it’s done with actors works because it’s the only way to cram in so much info about the background and events of the Nuremberg trials. There is nothing that isn’t superfluous acting bs - just a means to tell the story.

    It’s a thing I realised I knew absolutely nothing about (yes ok that includes politics etc) but the detail and story is amazing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    IshmaelZ said:

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    Nimbyism.
    I though he was all about building stuff in his backyard - and everyone else's?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157
    IshmaelZ said:

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    Nimbyism.
    He didn't approve of Blair-style devolution.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    Nimbyism.
    I though he was all about building stuff in his backyard - and everyone else's?
    Lebensraum
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,603
    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    Presumably that is assuming (reasonmably enough) that 'apprenticeship' was glorified slavery? I can't see how it works otherwise.
    Slavery in Britain was abolished by the Somerset case of 1772, which I misdated by 10 years.

    Until then, people could be held in slavery if in Britain even if they couldn't be sold or bought.

    But it wasn't until 1837 that the last slaves in the empire were freed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    Read Kershaw and Ulrich as a minimum. Shirer is a great source as he was present in Germany for much of the third Reich, but much greater depth is found elsewhere.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157
    edited November 2021
    Fenman said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    Slavery in England was abolished by the Synod of Westminster in 1102.
    More precisely, de facto in Somersett's Case in 1772, in England, and Joseph Knight's case in 1777, in Scotland.

    Which gives ydoethur's 55 years, as I should have realised, though one could add another 6 for the 'apprenticeship' period as many unsurprisingly now do to 1838.

    PS: just seen ydoethur's post, thanks!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
    Which is why Hitler got rid of Schacht who had noticed this, and put Goering in charge to build a war economy.
  • ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian.

    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
    The BNP are authoritarian, racist left wingers.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
    Also very heavily dependent on looting the comquered territories.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,095

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
    Tooze’s book on this is well worth a read.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian. .
    You don't have to be a socialist to be authoritarian. Franco wasn't, nor was Horthy, or Pilsudski, or Schuschnigg.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,157
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
    Tooze’s book on this is well worth a read.
    Seconded.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,630
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian. .
    You don't have to be a socialist to be authoritarian. Franco wasn't, nor was Horthy, or Pilsudski, or Schuschnigg.
    I quite liked Tolkiens take on the Nazis - "A synthesis of the worst elements of Kaiserism and Bolshevism"
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Banker-Hjalmar-Greeley-Schacht/dp/0316929166/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=0316929166&qid=1637440469&qsid=261-3872803-4529716&sr=8-1&sres=0316929166&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

    Goes into a lot of the detail - the Nazis were playing a shell game with the German economy that was unsustainable.
    Also very heavily dependent on looting the comquered territories.
    That was the "cure" for the shell game....
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian. .
    You don't have to be a socialist to be authoritarian. Franco wasn't, nor was Horthy, or Pilsudski, or Schuschnigg.
    Of course you don't, you can have authoritarian left-wingers and authoritarian right-wingers.

    The Nazis as a whole were authoritarian left-wingers, but for Hitler himself I don't think he gave a damn about left/right. He was a power hungry nationalist narcissist. Left/right doesn't enter into it for him.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    The health secretary has begun a review into racial bias in medical equipment amid fears that thousands of ethnic-minority patients died of Covid-19 who should have survived.

    Sajid Javid is working with his American counterpart, Xavier Becerra, on introducing new international standards to ensure that medical devices have been tested on all races before they are allowed to be sold.

    He has commissioned the review after research showed that oximeters, which monitor oxygen levels in the blood and are used to assess whether Covid-19 patients need lifesaving treatment, are less accurate on people with darker skin.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sajid-javid-orders-racial-bias-review-after-covid-deaths-wxtsbsxdc

    That’s a disaster if he does.

    While I understand the sentiment, it will massively raise the cost and slow down innovation if they need to run parallel trials before selling.

    A PIV (post approval) commitment to a bridging study might work but idiotic to delay approval in the first place because it doesn’t work for everyone
    If nothing else, highlighting the fact that a device/treatment is not certified for group X might save lives.

    If oximeter readings caused misdiagnosis......
    That would be reasonable although the reality you would end up with the majority of products only certified for the majority population
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Which seat (in whole or substantial) has had the most by-elections?

    Good question, not really googlable. I'd say any more than 3 would be exceptional.
    Bootle had two in 1990 so could be high on the 'all time' list.
    Can anyone beat Corby which had four different MPs between March 2010 and May 2015?
    Don’t start me on Louise f***ing Bradshawe.
    Who the f*** was she? A maths teacher, good on the times tables?
    She was an one of Cameron's A-listers - a chick-lit novelist who posted here a few times. Before her infamy as a "platinum grade troll"
    Although she has a degree from the House.

    And Career Girls was an amusing read as I knew most of the characters
    Wait, was Topaz Rossi based on you?
    Who do you think Amanda Pritchard was?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    Read Kershaw and Ulrich as a minimum. Shirer is a great source as he was present in Germany for much of the third Reich, but much greater depth is found elsewhere.
    I've read both. Thanks to others (@malmsbury, @ydoethur ) for sugestions too.

    Shirer as you suggest is the best source because he was there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    edited November 2021

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    I would suggest - although actually I'm not on the political left - there is a difference between the way a country behaves inside its own borders and the way it behaves outside. And that's especially true of Israel, a beacon of democracy in its 1967 borders, and a repressive regime in the occupied territory of the West Bank and the controlled area of Gaza.

    Just as slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire for 55 years after its abolition in Britain.
    I think they are holding Isreal to the standards of a European nation, and holding everyone else in the region to the standards of... Saudi Arabia?
    Saudi Arabia has standards? It's kept that secret.
    You jest sir.

    They have complex, detailed, legally codified standards on how to treat gay people, women etc. And they are quite punctilious in the treatment of same.*

    *Unless the person in question is someone of note in the Royal House, of course.
    Radical ideas of press regulation, though...

    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
    It's a fair argument to say that there's little difference between the totalitarians of the right and left - but it's absurd to argue that the different flavours didn't get there by the two very different routes, and derive their support from one side or other of the political spectrum.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,463
    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,603

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian.

    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
    The BNP are authoritarian, racist left wingers.
    Someone needs to tell Paul Weller. The Jam's back catalogue is thus a bogus narrative.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    Enforced lederhose for a week Comrade!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    People who question Israel's foreign policy, but absolutely nobody else's, need looking at, though.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
    And as for the Conservative and Unionist party..
    As accurate as the Holy Roman Empire
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    Polls are usually embargoed until 2200 aren't they?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    Read Kershaw and Ulrich as a minimum. Shirer is a great source as he was present in Germany for much of the third Reich, but much greater depth is found elsewhere.
    I've read both. Thanks to others (@malmsbury, @ydoethur ) for sugestions too.

    Shirer as you suggest is the best source because he was there.
    Richard Evans' Third Reich Trilogy is a very accessible read for a non-specialist.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
    And as for the Conservative and Unionist party..
    As accurate as the Holy Roman Empire
    Neither holy, roman, or an empire?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    IshmaelZ said:

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    People who question Israel's foreign policy, but absolutely nobody else's, need looking at, though.
    In fairness, they usually question ours as well.
  • ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian.

    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
    The BNP are authoritarian, racist left wingers.
    Someone needs to tell Paul Weller. The Jam's back catalogue is thus a bogus narrative.
    I'm not sure what the connection is between The Jam and the BNP, sorry.

    The Jam broke up when I was six months old, I'm afraid to say they're not a band I'm particularly familiar with. I can think of Town Called Malice and Getting Underground but that's all I can think of from memory.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,463
    IshmaelZ said:

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    People who question Israel's foreign policy, but absolutely nobody else's, need looking at, though.
    Quite agree. I've been a trenchant critic of the USA's foreign policy for 40 years now. And Russia's. And other, less powerful, countries too numerous to mention.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    Read Kershaw and Ulrich as a minimum. Shirer is a great source as he was present in Germany for much of the third Reich, but much greater depth is found elsewhere.
    I've read both. Thanks to others (@malmsbury, @ydoethur ) for sugestions too.

    Shirer as you suggest is the best source because he was there.
    Richard Evans' Third Reich Trilogy is a very accessible read for a non-specialist.
    And for the specialist?
  • ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    People who question Israel's foreign policy, but absolutely nobody else's, need looking at, though.
    In fairness, they usually question ours as well.
    And America's

    But not any nation that isn't a democracy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Any opinion polls tonight? We could do with one to divert us away from the tedious "fascists are really socialists", and "who do left-wingers hate the most?" stuff, let alone the rancorous allegations of anti-semitism aimed at anybody who dares question Israel's foreign policy.

    People who question Israel's foreign policy, but absolutely nobody else's, need looking at, though.
    In fairness, they usually question ours as well.
    And America's

    But not any nation that isn't a democracy.
    Really? I think the left have been quite hard on Saudi foreign policy too.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
    And as for the Conservative and Unionist party..
    As accurate as the Holy Roman Empire
    Neither holy, roman, or an empire?
    That’s the one
  • For purposes of politics and punting, it's fortunate for PBers that both HYUFD (today?) and NPxMP (Monday?) will be canvassing the mean streets of Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    Do we have anyone that's gone to ground (so to speak) in North Shropshire? Leon is (or was) not too far from this turf.

  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian. .
    You don't have to be a socialist to be authoritarian. Franco wasn't, nor was Horthy, or Pilsudski, or Schuschnigg.
    Of course you don't, you can have authoritarian left-wingers and authoritarian right-wingers.

    The Nazis as a whole were authoritarian left-wingers, but for Hitler himself I don't think he gave a damn about left/right. He was a power hungry nationalist narcissist. Left/right doesn't enter into it for him.
    I think only very early Nazis were actual socialists. They soon started to purge people who took that part of the name seriously
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Yeah, and North Korea is democratic because that is in its name too 🙄
    And as for the Conservative and Unionist party..
    As accurate as the Holy Roman Empire
    Neither holy, roman, or an empire?
    I still think it would be a better model for the EU constitution than the current one
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    For purposes of politics and punting, it's fortunate for PBers that both HYUFD (today?) and NPxMP (Monday?) will be canvassing the mean streets of Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    Do we have anyone that's gone to ground (so to speak) in North Shropshire? Leon is (or was) not too far from this turf.

    I went to to school in Ruyton XI Towns in the constituency, but that was a bit ago.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
    That's what Brexiteers do best to be fair
  • History of the Holy Roman Empire by Peter Wilson is a deep, detailed yet broad-ranging dive into this fascinating institution.

    For all its flaws - including fact that it was none of the three things it specifically claimed - the HRE had some positive attributes, such as establishing and preserving a basis for European and German cultural and political cooperation and (dare I say?) unity.

    But the Empire's biggest contribution was giving numerous examples of how NOT to foster cooperation and unity, in contrast to Switzerland and (dare I say?) the UK and even (dare I say?) the USA. Examples which unfortunately in many respects the Euro-establishment in Brussels, Strasbourg, Berlin, Paris and (dare I say?) London either under or never appreciated, or chose to ignore.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Hitler somehow presided over an incredible economic boom. I doubt anything to do with his facial hair was the key.
    Unsustainable though. Without the war, Germany would have been in serious economic trouble in the 1940’s.
    Ok. I don't know if that's true or not.

    My sources are mainly William Shirer, and some other picked up stuff.

    I don't think it is true though. My hunch is that Germany would have thrived no matter what.
    Read Kershaw and Ulrich as a minimum. Shirer is a great source as he was present in Germany for much of the third Reich, but much greater depth is found elsewhere.
    I've read both. Thanks to others (@malmsbury, @ydoethur ) for sugestions too.

    Shirer as you suggest is the best source because he was there.
    Richard Evans' Third Reich Trilogy is a very accessible read for a non-specialist.
    And for the specialist?
    If you need to ask, you're not a specialist, shirley?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2021

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
    Yeah that doesn't make it right wing.

    Incidentally I'm a big believer in the "horseshoe theory" mentioned in the far right article you linked to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
    Yebbutmaonstalin

    What a tedious debate
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    For purposes of politics and punting, it's fortunate for PBers that both HYUFD (today?) and NPxMP (Monday?) will be canvassing the mean streets of Old Bexley and Sidcup.

    Do we have anyone that's gone to ground (so to speak) in North Shropshire? Leon is (or was) not too far from this turf.

    Bless, if @Leon is in the area he will surely be holed up in a Michelin-starred gastropub full of fellow Londoners, writing a puff-piece for the Speccie or Times or whoever pays his travel bill?

    (He says, feeling rather jealous.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
    Yeah that doesn't make it right wing.

    Incidentally I'm a big believer in the "horseshoe theory" mentioned in the far right article you linked to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
    I like that theory too... but no way were the Nazis on the 'far-left' of that horseshoe, any more than Stalin was on the far-right.

    I stand by my original assertion: the fascists were right-wing.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,773
    edited November 2021


    “Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.“

    If only Wikipedia had existed when I was 5 I wouldn’t have needed to go to school or university as it’s an absolutely flawless source of absolute facts compiled only by experts with impeccable credentials and not an open source depository of the opinions of anyone who can be arsed to update it.

    I consider myself educated by an article on Wikipedia - fuck my qualifications I can just say to a potential employer that I have been educated by Wikipedia and therefore I am beyond criticism or nuance in any argument.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    Pretty sure he was a socialist. It was in the party name.
    Drexler was a socialist. Hitler wasn't. Anything but.
    He was an authoritarian.

    .

    Golly, it's lefty bashing night tonight. The traditional self exculpating climax of 'Hitler was a socialist' always a luverly sight.

    I bet all those German conservatives and private industries must have felt right muppets after betting the farm on AH.

    And all the socialists who backed him and made him their party representative too.

    What about AH was right-wing? Was he decentralising and deregulating? Cutting taxes? Rolling back the frontiers of the state?
    There are number of articles including a great one from the Washington Post suggesting you are wrong.

    Where do the EDL and BNP sit on your political illustration?
    The BNP are authoritarian, racist left wingers.
    There's another thing than needs correcting on Wiki then:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

    "The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right, fascist political party in the United Kingdom."</>
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Scott_xP said:
    We can but hope...
  • Who could have predicted this?

    Boris Johnson has shelved his dream for a bridge or tunnel connecting Northern Ireland with Scotland, after a review concluded it would be too technically challenging and expensive.

    The Prime Minister tasked Sir Peter Hendy, the Network Rail chairman, with launching a feasibility study into the idea as part of a wider investigation into upgrading connectivity across the Union.

    The review, expected to be published this coming week, has ruled out the proposal for a fixed-link connecting Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK for the foreseeable future.

    A government source told The Telegraph: “Hendy has examined if this is affordable and practical and he concludes it would be technically very challenging at the moment.

    “That’s not to say it won't become viable at some point in the future, but at the moment it would be very, very difficult and expensive.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/20/pms-irish-sea-bridge-shelved-difficult-expensive/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Monkeys said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Reading some of the earlier thread.

    This comment by @Foxy stood out:

    "Well quite often people have blind spots on specific issues, including [anti-Semitism]. While obviously wrong, it doesn't cancel them completely in my eyes. To restrict politics to those of some impossible standard of being perfect on all measures would make it very difficult to populate Parliaments."

    This after he said that it was only anti-Semitism after all.

    Time to roll out David Baddiel's book again:

    Jews Don’t Count is a searing look at why anti-Semitism is often seen as a lesser form of racism, with a particular focus on the political left. To be Jewish, explains Baddiel, is to be subject to the contradictory belief that “Jews are somehow both sub-human and humanity’s secret masters”. Anti-semitic tropes are everywhere – yet, he argues, few of those who consider themselves alert to racism notice, let alone care.

    That's unfair. The Modern Left have nearly no one left they are allowed to express hatred of. You have to leave them *something*. Otherwise they might burst.....
    The left are allowed to hate: Western culture, all traditional art forms, excellence in universities, equality before the law, private property, the family, Tories, capitalism except the Chinese sort, the concept of objectivity, each other, all western based religious culture, the House of Lords, freedom of thought, enterprise, the correspondence theory of truth, John Stuart Mill, the hereditary principle... the list is endless.

    But that kind of hate has no joy in it. For your proper, visceral hate, from the dark side of the brain (the serious stuff) you need an ethnic group, really.
    It's that sort of self-hatred that leads to the anti-semitism. That is, they are closer to us than the countries surrounding them, so they become a good vessel for the self-hatred described in hating western values. I don't think I've ever heard a single "criticism of israel," that can't be applied, and worse, to the islamic middle-east. Certainly, if the problem that the left might pick out in the West as sexual and gender inequality, Israel is more in line with their views on that than, say Syria, or Jordan.
    Yes, I think Israel is the only country in the Middle East that I could live in. For all its faults it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim.
    OK Foxy, this is what i cannot get at all with "the left". you have it bang on "it is the only country in the region in which it is safe to be politically outspoken against the government, feminist, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, Jew, Bahai or even the wrong sort of Muslim".

    so why the fuck is it that people of "the left" have such a hatred of israel? i am absolutely certain that the majority of the left who aren't hard core islamists, if they had to live under a sharia/islamic state would absolutely hate it and be the biggest victims of it. trans, gay, women who want to drive a frigging car, marry who they want.....

    so they absolutely hate israel/ its apparently not because they are anti-semitic..... its some weird inbuilt bollocks.

    i'm nominally a catholic, don't give a crap about religion but weirdly if i had to choose a religion and culture other than what i've grown up with it would be Judaism. close enough to Christianity with the same "moral base" but also frankly apart from pork products not overly proscriptive over life and enjoying life. drink, dance, be happy, shag beautiful women in Eilat! would you seriously live in a muslim?sharia country?

    so please explain what it is that the left finds so awful about Israel? i mean if its just about occupying contested land then every country western, catholic, muslim, asian has problems if being rational.
    People like Jeremy Corbyn conflate the expansionist tendencies of politicians like Benjamin Netanyahu with the faith of now former members like Luciana Berger.

    Please don't make the mistake yourself of conflating Jeremy Corbyn with everyone on the centre left and beyond who aren't lost in Jeremy Corbyn's Hamas/IRA fog.

    Granted there are rather a lot of SWP/ Corbynista types of the anti Semitic mindset, however there are vastly significantly more people on the political left who are not.

    I seem to recall a man of the right (with a small moustache) was also an anti- Semite.
    Do you mean recalling a national socialist with a small moustache? Not sure which part of the right - small govt, low taxes, free market he was a fan of as opposed to centralised state control?
    The far right is a different beast to that.
    Yes its not right for a starter.
    So fascists are not right-wing?

    I beg to differ.
    No they're not right wing.

    They're authoritarian. What makes an authoritarian socialist "right wing"?
    Some education material for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    I appreciate for those of you on the right that it must be very uncomfortsble to have fascism as an extreme bedfellow but wishing it ain't so doesn't make it not so.
    Yeah that doesn't make it right wing.

    Incidentally I'm a big believer in the "horseshoe theory" mentioned in the far right article you linked to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
    I like that theory too... but no way were the Nazis on the 'far-left' of that horseshoe, any more than Stalin was on the far-right.

    I stand by my original assertion: the fascists were right-wing.
    It’s kind of meaningless though.

    The definition of “far-right” in your link is anti-communist, authoritarian, ultranationalist and with nativist tendencies.

    There’s no particular connection with “right wing” parties such as the Conservatives or the Christian Democrats. Not “anti-communist” by definition, some elements of authoritarianism but plenty of liberals/libertarians, certainly not ultranationalist and barely nativist.

    And yet people try to connect the two, primarily as an attack on the centre right.
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