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A CON election majority down to a 36% chance in the betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • 1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    How many of the 60 times it was promised were after the start of the pandemic?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fantastic value on Tory majority. A major over-reaction to the news.

    My predictions would be
    Increased Tory majority 20%
    Smaller Tory majority 55%
    NOM 20%
    Labour majority 5%

    An INCREASED Con majority just as likely as NOM? Gosh, Philip, that's massively contra consensus. So is Con majority of any size at 75%.

    It's a punting view to die for. Can I have it please?

    I'm stuck with Con maj and NOM both around 50%.
    Considering I could lay NOM at better than evens right now, why would I do a multiple of laying NOM and backing an increased majority for evens?

    If you wish to offer interesting terms then I'd consider them.
    No, I mean I'd love to have your view! You can coin it on betfair. That's my point. I'd never try and leg you over on a bet, Philip. What would that make me? A heel, that's what.

    Hey, so the drums are beating a bit more for no big Art 16 shenanigans now, I see. No longer 'likely' but maybe still not quite 'unlikely'. What drama.
    Oh my view? Yes my view is that Con majority is a massive value bet, and I think NOM is majorly overvalued.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907
    edited November 2021
    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    Fantastic value on Tory majority. A major over-reaction to the news.

    My predictions would be
    Increased Tory majority 20%
    Smaller Tory majority 55%
    NOM 20%
    Labour majority 5%

    I can't see an increased Tory Majority (yes Farage cost Boris seats but there will be losses) but a smaller Tory majority (ala 92) has to be the likely outcome
    I actually drafted before the Budget a proposed thread header I was going to email into TSE for the site on why I think an increased Tory majority is possible and looking at odds and betting markets for that.

    I feel silly sending it in right now during this maelstrom though so was waiting for it to blow over.
    Don't feel silly - an increased majority is absolutely possible. Where we may disagree is why and how that can happen. I think Boris is a liability who needs to be replaced if the Tories want that to happen.

    Bin him off, make a public sweep of the worst of the corruption, ping money parcels at the right people and the right places and they can do it. Or, keep him and see their turnout drop enough to throw scores of seats over to Labour / LibDem / SNP.
    One wonders whether the next PM may come from outside the current Cabinet. Hunt I know is the obvious such candidate. But what about a Tugendhat? Or is there a young buck waiting in the wings? Or a grey beard outside of Cabinet I’ve forgotten about?
    I suspect Hunt’s time has passed. But he’s clean as and when the Tories come to their senses
    Would Hunt have won a big majority against Corbyn in 2019 as Boris did? I doubt it, he would have got roughly the same result May did in 2017 and not had the appeal of Boris to voters in the Redwall. The Brexit Party would have stood candidates in Tory held seats which they did not do with Boris as Tory leader so he would have lost some to the LDs too
  • F1: Verstappen fastest in first practice, four-tenths off Gasly and Bottas, Hamilton three-tenths further back.

    I would read very little into that, beyond Gasly performing well again. He and Norris have been the midfield's standout performers this year.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "@patrickkmaguire
    Not much meaningful change in this week's YouGov poll for The Times – Tories regain a negligible lead

    CON 36 (+1)
    LAB 34 (-1)
    LIB DEM 7 (-1)
    GREEN 10 (nc)
    REF UK 5 (+1)

    CON 2019 now Labour: 4 per cent
    CON 2019 now undecided: 17 per cent (-5 on last week)"

    https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1461610988969545730

    All things considered, it's better than the government deserves.
    The tories could not have had a worse November yet they are ahead, and with Reform on 5% they are probably further ahead.
    The similarity with Labour after c. 2 years of Blair Government are quite striking. Plenty of scandals popping up, Hague tearing into Blair at the Dispatch Box and yet almost no difference at the next election. Labour, to many people, are simply unelectable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2021

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    How many of the 60 times it was promised were after the start of the pandemic?
    June last year, certainly.
    They started to go quiet on the usual promises a bit after that, in the runup to the budget.
    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/from-bold-promises-to-disappointment-how-hs2-and-northern-powerhouse-rail-were-scaled-back-3463181
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2021

    F1: Verstappen fastest in first practice, four-tenths off Gasly and Bottas, Hamilton three-tenths further back.

    I would read very little into that, beyond Gasly performing well again. He and Norris have been the midfield's standout performers this year.

    Hamilton quite probably using an older engine - "massively down on power" according to his radio messages.
    Gasly has been great this season.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    Someone's knifing him. Probably Rishi - he can pluck numbers out of his arse to frighten Johnson in the absolute certainty Johnson won't understand them.
    The only thing that makes sense is that Sunak has panicked about interest rate rises whacking the public finances and has therefore somehow scared Johnson into breaking cast iron promises over rail. Even that doesn't make sense as this is investment over decades not day to day spending.

    So we are left with just Sunak trying to help bring forward the day Johnson is booted out.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    edited November 2021

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    The trouble I have with that analysis is that the SNP are already displacing Tories at Westminster fairly [edit] successfully. So if displacing Tories is your aim, why vote Labour? IIRC all the existing Tory seats are Tory-SNP battlegrounds, so again why vote Labour there?
  • Nigelb said:

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    How many of the 60 times it was promised were after the start of the pandemic?
    June last year, certainly.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57282010

    Shapps in May this year as well.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited November 2021

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now. But that's not what he's saying.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    Being more of a Scotch expert than Scottish expert, I thought the 2017 performance was attributed more to Davidson - first time I've heard it suggested that May was popular. Is that wrong? I can see how she could have had more appeal than Johnson or Cameron.

    What you suggest is possible, of course. But does the chain of events (Stugeon goes, Johnson stays*, Conservatives continue to be this inept*) add up to 16% chance of Lab majority?

    *these may also be necessary for the required decent Labour wins in England, even with partial recovery in Scotland, to get a majority?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Apparently beacuse he is now Leader of the Labour Party anything he believed and fought for before the date he was elected Leader is now irrelevant and he can now have completely opposable views to the ones he had a couple of years ago because he can attack the Government with these new views.
    Not really. He was anti HS2 a few years ago as MP for Holburn & St Pancras. He's pro HS2 as leader of the Labour Party now. People will make their minds up about how terrible this is. For example, did he tell all and sundry that he would "lie down in front of the diggers" if necessary to stop it? Stuff like that, while all a bit soapy, can play into perceptions.
    Interviewers of SKS will just bring it up over and over, as a politician you cannot go from someone delivering petetions against something a couple of years ago to now being totally in favour of it and beating the Government for not completing HS2 in its entirety.

    Its very much like his position on 2nd jobs. He now says they shoud be banned even though he has benefited from having one over the past 5 years.
    All a bit petty though. Really small beer. If that's going to be the best the Tories have to offer come the GE after 14 years in power I need to radically uplift my percentage chance of a Labour majority.
    How is it petty? It reminds me of his opposition to Brexit and all the wheezes he tried with that which he is now trying to distance himself from. I think people are more prepared to forgive hopelessness than they are hypocrisy. And he stinks of it. This HS2 conversion is like Greta Thunberg working in a coal mine.
    This is not something he felt strongly about in his youth. he delivered a petition against HS2 a couple of years ago.

    If his line was now "I was opposed to HS2 but now its started I can see the benefits of it" than he might get away with it. But to berate the Government for not delivering something that he signed and delivered a petition against only recently is bizarre. He shows he lacks political nous of the highest order.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    The trouble I have with that analysis is that the SNP are already displacing Tories at Westminster fairly [edit] successfully. So if that is your aim, why vote Labour? IIRC all the existing Tory seats are Tory-SNP battlegrounds, so again why vote Labour there?
    Yougov Scottish subsample today has the SNP on 40% and the Tories on 24%, would be a swing of 2% from SNP to the Tories since 2019 and see the Tories gain Gordon from the SNP.

    Albeit it is only a subsample

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/g8dunbfqqh/TheTimes_VI_211118_W.pdf
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited November 2021
    "Around thirty current and former journalists from the Telegraph were present at the Garrick Club dinner." One of them, ex hypothesi, a bean-spiller. Plus waiting staff.

    Wowser.

    ETA how utterly splendid if his cor lumme public speaking style, and a woman scorned, turn out to be his nemeses.
  • tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now.
    I'm breaking my pledges because I don't give a damn about Yorkshire and the NE.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,126

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    Given what happened to it, 'titanic' is a most apt (!) description for the Labour vote in Scotland.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    Being more of a Scotch expert than Scottish expert, I thought the 2017 performance was attributed more to Davidson - first time I've heard it suggested that May was popular. Is that wrong? I can see how she could have had more appeal than Johnson or Cameron.

    What you suggest is possible, of course. But does the chain of events (Stugeon goes, Johnson stays*, Conservatives continue to be this inept*) add up to 16% chance of Lab majority?

    *these may also be necessary for the required decent Labour wins in England, even with partial recovery in Scotland, to get a majority?
    Ms Davidson (as she was then) was a "Boris"-type figure - a journalist, a TV reporter, knew how to make a media construct of herself, lots of photo opportunities - and, adding to the comparison, attracting quite a few Labour voters in a negative analogue of Get Brexit Done, by having a simple message - going on about no referendum. I'd be surprised if Ms May made much difference. But it's an interesting thought.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    tlg86 said:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    24m
    BREAKING: Austria to go into full lockdown on Monday as Covid surges - and jabs to be COMPULSORY from Feb.

    Are you still confident that it's all over and this could never happen here? Really? Are you *sure* about that?

    It never ends until we say it does

    ===

    Well, I'm certainly not totally confident it wont happen here. But remain reasonably optimistic. I think there's less chance of a lurch in that direction with Javid than Hancock at NHS.

    The pressure for it shouldn't happen here as we've sensibly accepted the exit wave and got much of it done before the winter.

    I doubt the government meant it, but the sleaze and rail stories have actually been brilliant in diverting attention from COVID. Is this the longest we've gone without COVID being the main story in the UK?
    Ironically, the success of the government in avoiding winter restrictions, even if they are brought in elsewhere, is unlikely to make headlines - and the headlines that are being made, are mostly bad news for the government!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,126
    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    I was wondering that too. Best theory I've heard is that to successfully oppose the might of the Treasury even a landslide PM needs to have a real grip on the issue in question and to truly care about it, thus be prepared to invest the time and effort required to win the argument. But this is Boris Johnson.
  • Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799
    edited November 2021
    This seems extremely unlikely and it feels like publicity seeking by dying newspaper that has about 20 readers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,907
    edited November 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Well if it results in Austria getting 100% double vaccination it should ensure they have the lowest Covid death rate in Europe, maybe even the world, from next year.

    However yes I do have concerns about the compulsion element too
  • On Starmer's changed view of HS2 I wonder if he has thought this through

    The whole costs of both HS2 and NPR will now be additional to the total 96 billion announced and in view of his other high spending commitments on home insulation and green investment where is all this money coming from

    It will be popular in metropolitan areas but these are already labour but with just 28% giving it the thumbs up yesterday it may not be the vote winner he thinks it is

    Furthermore his opposition to HS2 is going to be played on repeat and has he thought how the Greens will react as he could lose supporters to the Greens

    In politics nothing is as simple as it seems

    Lets pick this apart:
    1. The "£96bn announced" hasn't been announced. Its a press release statement with nothing behind it. As an example, part of your £96bn is the 12-minute journey time Leeds to Bradford which isn't even yet a project, its an "we'll ask Network Rail" and will then be "subject to a business case" and treasury approval.
    2. When you strip away pre-announced and already budgeted monies the total is £54bn. So no, HS2E / NPR is not additional to the £96bn £54bn -large chunks are still HS2E / NPR
    3. Where the money comes from is where all the money comes from. We borrow money. Invest in something. Receive a return on the investment. Its called "capitalism"
    4. From the sizeable choir of angry red wall Tories and at least one mayor, the areas in question are not already Labour.
    5. Opposition to 2015 Euston plans - which have already been curtailed - is not going to get Boris off the hook. People are not stupid.

    Big_G, you are supposedly past your previous "defend at all costs" position. This isn't even a shit sandwich as they have cancelled the bread roll. All the people celebrating the end of blight on their homes are now realising the blight continues indefinitely. All the people being told "this delivers quicker" can see that the previous 2043 timeline is now a much sooner 2043.

    Please stop. They aren't worth it. Let the remaining PB parrots try and excuse this fiasco.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited November 2021

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    Someone's knifing him. Probably Rishi - he can pluck numbers out of his arse to frighten Johnson in the absolute certainty Johnson won't understand them.
    The only thing that makes sense is that Sunak has panicked about interest rate rises whacking the public finances and has therefore somehow scared Johnson into breaking cast iron promises over rail. Even that doesn't make sense as this is investment over decades not day to day spending.

    So we are left with just Sunak trying to help bring forward the day Johnson is booted out.
    I'm not convinced. I think a more likely scenario is that Johnson wants to be able to make plenty of new expensive promises at the next election, and Sunak has told him he has to jettison some of his expensive promises from the last election first.

    This might sound like a political tactic with diminishing returns, but then I've been continually surprised by the general public's willingness to trust Johnson, so I am ready to be amazed when they do so again.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Fantastic value on Tory majority. A major over-reaction to the news.

    My predictions would be
    Increased Tory majority 20%
    Smaller Tory majority 55%
    NOM 20%
    Labour majority 5%

    Increased Tory majority as we speak is wishful thinking, although that could change (very, very unlikely I would say).

    And your Labour majority figure is 5% too high.
    Odds are not just about "as we speak" though they're about what could happen. As we speak then a reduced Tory majority would be the only real game in town, but over three years things can change.
    Of course it is. Which is why the market is fluctuating for a Tory majority after the last two weeks.

    My Labour 0% is based on fact. And fact that is unlikely to change. The current direction of travel for the Tories is down, which is why your prediction of a Tory increased majority appears counter intuitive. When things change. Boris invents another vaccine, or Sunak replaces Johnson, maybe you wishful prediction will be borne out by the odds.
    An increased Tory majority may be counterintuitive but counterintuitive things can happen and identifying which ones can happen and why is how we identify value.

    Labour 0% is not fact. 0% means its impossible and never say never.

    With a 1997-style swing (unlikely but possible) then Labour could gain a majority via English and Welsh seats, while picking up a handful of Scottish ones. Is that likely? No. Is it possible? Yes - and if its possible its not 0%

    Overturning the Tory majority is going to take such a large swing that an overshoot into Labour majority is possible.
    I one hundred percent agree with no Labour majority, but the numbers are potentially there for NOM.

    As a confirmed punter your longshots are legendary (hat tip for Sunak). An increased Johnson majority due to the collapse of UKIP and boundary changes may come to pass, although current evidence suggests that should be more than offset by the current ****storm. Tories increased seats is a counter intuitive long shot at present that might pay off, but you can't apply 20% to a counter intuitive long shot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,132
    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    I disagree with the Austrian policy, but have much less issue with the French strategy.

    Frankly, banning the unvaccinated from certain activities is not that uncontroversial. After all, the costs of the unvaccinated (such as health care) fall on all the citizens.
  • Nigelb said:

    Anna Soubry
    @Anna_Soubry
    ·
    2h
    Listening to
    @grantshapps on #Today it’s as if he’s taken a mind bending hallucinatory substance. Shapps is spinning the cancellation of #HS2 E leg & #HS3 as being better for passengers & investment/ levelling up than honouring the promise to deliver them both. The arrogance.

    He repeated his 12m from Bradford to Leeds promise this morning, not as an aspiration, but saying "it will happen this decade".
    Ditto tripling the capacity between Leeds and Manchester.
    Its laughable pig ignorance. Why promise stuff that absolutely cannot be delivered?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    Those statistics don't reflect my memory....

    But hey I'm happy that you think HS2 is cancelled and everything is going to be all right.

    I'm looking forward to the screams when people discover everything they were told on Thursday is based on fantasies (all the new "plans") and lies (yup your house is still blighted).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    I disagree with the Austrian policy, but have much less issue with the French strategy.

    Frankly, banning the unvaccinated from certain activities is not that uncontroversial. After all, the costs of the unvaccinated (such as health care) fall on all the citizens.
    Yeah the best policy I've heard on it is making unvaccinated by choice people get additional insurance cover for COVID healthcare costs and if they don't then bill them for the cost of care.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    Nigelb said:

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now.
    I'm breaking my pledges because I don't give a damn about Yorkshire and the NE.
    Red Wall Tory MPs - start job hunting because in 2023 you are going to need to find a new career.
  • Hopefully the story is multiple-sourced. Either way they are standing by it. Perhaps they will respond in the manner of Arkell vs Pressdram?
  • tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    You forget Northern Powerhouse Rail at your peril. Also the absolute bunfights in places like Sheffield over the routing to ensure they get the benefits from it.

    Wish it away if you want...
  • Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Perhaps they could now sue them for stating incorrectly that they were going to sue them????
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    MaxPB said:

    This seems extremely unlikely and it feels like publicity seeking by dying newspaper that has about 20 readers.
    There is that, of course!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    You forget Northern Powerhouse Rail at your peril. Also the absolute bunfights in places like Sheffield over the routing to ensure they get the benefits from it.

    Wish it away if you want...
    Likewise the fact that HS2 now needs to go to Nottingham itself because the station at Toton (which was actually accessible for people) has been scrapped.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Sad news — Anthony Well's UKPollingReport is finally going to shut down. It's been going since 2004. The constituency section of the site hadn't been updated for a long time so it always looked like it might close down.

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/10166/comment-page-1#comments
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    I disagree with the Austrian policy, but have much less issue with the French strategy.

    Frankly, banning the unvaccinated from certain activities is not that uncontroversial. After all, the costs of the unvaccinated (such as health care) fall on all the citizens.
    Yeah the best policy I've heard on it is making unvaccinated by choice people get additional insurance cover for COVID healthcare costs and if they don't then bill them for the cost of care.
    I understand that the Austrian policy is for fines on the unvaccinated. Depending on the level of fine levied it might not turn out far from what you propose, though presented in a more adversarial way.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now.
    I'm breaking my pledges because I don't give a damn about Yorkshire and the NE.
    Red Wall Tory MPs - start job hunting because in 2023 you are going to need to find a new career.
    I sometimes, briefly, wonder what happens to one-term MP's. Fairly easy to go back to their old jobs of course.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Is forcing people to get vaccinated compatible with human rights legislation?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    Someone's knifing him. Probably Rishi - he can pluck numbers out of his arse to frighten Johnson in the absolute certainty Johnson won't understand them.
    The only thing that makes sense is that Sunak has panicked about interest rate rises whacking the public finances and has therefore somehow scared Johnson into breaking cast iron promises over rail. Even that doesn't make sense as this is investment over decades not day to day spending.

    So we are left with just Sunak trying to help bring forward the day Johnson is booted out.
    I'm not convinced. I think a more likely scenario is that Johnson wants to be able to make plenty of new expensive promises at the next election, and Sunak has told him he has to jettison some of his expensive promises from the last election first.

    This might sound like a political tactic with diminishing returns, but then I've been continually surprised by the general public's willingness to trust Johnson, so I am ready to be amazed when they do so again.
    The bridge to Ireland is back on!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    edited November 2021

    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Who would have paid the legal fees [edit] in the purely hypothetical case of a case being brought? HMG or Mr Johnson personally?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    I disagree with the Austrian policy, but have much less issue with the French strategy.

    Frankly, banning the unvaccinated from certain activities is not that uncontroversial. After all, the costs of the unvaccinated (such as health care) fall on all the citizens.
    Yeah the best policy I've heard on it is making unvaccinated by choice people get additional insurance cover for COVID healthcare costs and if they don't then bill them for the cost of care.
    I understand that the Austrian policy is for fines on the unvaccinated. Depending on the level of fine levied it might not turn out far from what you propose, though presented in a more adversarial way.
    Not really, this isn't a fine and people can refuse to get the health insurance if they wanted to, it just means they are potentially liable for the cost of their COVID care if they get seriously ill.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Is forcing people to get vaccinated compatible with human rights legislation?
    I wouldn't have thought so, even where it has been mandated they've done it through no jab/no job measures which are between an employer and employee rather than the state and a citizen.
  • Carnyx said:

    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Who would have paid the legal fees [edit] in the purely hypothetical case of a case being brought? HMG or Mr Johnson personally?
    A Tory donor of course. Funded via the cabinet office and CCHQ in an "of course we haven't declared it" manner.
  • Carnyx said:

    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Who would have paid the legal fees [edit] in the purely hypothetical case of a case being brought? HMG or Mr Johnson personally?
    Future Lord X?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,126

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Apparently beacuse he is now Leader of the Labour Party anything he believed and fought for before the date he was elected Leader is now irrelevant and he can now have completely opposable views to the ones he had a couple of years ago because he can attack the Government with these new views.
    Not really. He was anti HS2 a few years ago as MP for Holburn & St Pancras. He's pro HS2 as leader of the Labour Party now. People will make their minds up about how terrible this is. For example, did he tell all and sundry that he would "lie down in front of the diggers" if necessary to stop it? Stuff like that, while all a bit soapy, can play into perceptions.
    Interviewers of SKS will just bring it up over and over, as a politician you cannot go from someone delivering petetions against something a couple of years ago to now being totally in favour of it and beating the Government for not completing HS2 in its entirety.

    Its very much like his position on 2nd jobs. He now says they shoud be banned even though he has benefited from having one over the past 5 years.
    All a bit petty though. Really small beer. If that's going to be the best the Tories have to offer come the GE after 14 years in power I need to radically uplift my percentage chance of a Labour majority.
    How is it petty? It reminds me of his opposition to Brexit and all the wheezes he tried with that which he is now trying to distance himself from. I think people are more prepared to forgive hopelessness than they are hypocrisy. And he stinks of it. This HS2 conversion is like Greta Thunberg working in a coal mine.
    This is not something he felt strongly about in his youth. he delivered a petition against HS2 a couple of years ago.

    If his line was now "I was opposed to HS2 but now its started I can see the benefits of it" than he might get away with it. But to berate the Government for not delivering something that he signed and delivered a petition against only recently is bizarre. He shows he lacks political nous of the highest order.
    "Starmer's HS2 position is like Greta Thunberg working in a coal mine".

    My wires fuse if I try to process stuff like this.

    Cheers and the best of luck in all you do.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Is forcing people to get vaccinated compatible with human rights legislation?
    Yep - pandemics trump human rights but the question becomes whether vaccination is now a proportional response as we get closer to herd immunity.

    It's a tough one though as the other option is let the unvaccinated have a 10x great chance of dying while the population gets to herd immunity..
  • Carnyx said:

    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Who would have paid the legal fees [edit] in the purely hypothetical case of a case being brought? HMG or Mr Johnson personally?
    A Tory donor of course. Funded via the cabinet office and CCHQ in an "of course we haven't declared it" manner.
    Getting a friendly donor to do it via no win no fee style deal seems easy to arrange and difficult to prove any corrupt intent. The donor can assign an inflated chance of success to make the value appear proportionate to the work effort.
  • malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    That Labour majority figure is way too high - I really can't see how it occurs without a complete Tory collapse.

    For that 16% to make sense the chance of a Tory majority needs to be about 10% not 36%.

    It would need Labour to recover quite dramatically in Scotland
    As much chance of that as me being the next Pope
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, @TheScreamingEagles - how are Liverpool fans tolerating this nonsense:

    https://www.liverpoolfc.com/fans/fan-experience/getting-to-anfield/stadium-checklist

    Make sure you allow enough time for any necessary security checks which may include random searches. Small personal bags are permitted - please ensure your bags are no larger than A5 and only one bag per person is allowed. It is advised you only bring a bag if it is absolutely essential, please see our checklist of what can/cannot be brought in to the stadium here.

    Arsenal tried to do something similar at the start of the season (you could only use a clear bag purchased from the Arsenal shop for £1), but thankfully enough fans kicked off that they reverted to allowing reasonable sized rucksacks in.

    Not happy, the fan groups have been liaising with the club. There kick offs for a couple of pre season friendlies were delayed because the system couldn’t cope.

    The club have offered £2 pints and cheaper food to allow the fans to get to the ground earlier.

    But the teething problems aren’t as bad as they were in July/August.
    Interesting that Liverpool have persisted with the policy. Arsenal folded after a couple of games! I only looked up Liverpool's policy, because I got this email from Arsenal yesterday:

    We have been advised by Liverpool FC that there will be a zero-bag policy enforced (with the exception of medical bags) for supporters entering the stadium on Saturday, November 20, 2021.

    There will be no bag drop/storage facility at the stadium so please avoid bringing a bag with you as you will be refused entry.


    Not a problem for me as I drive to away games outside of London, but it's not great that away fans are being discriminated against in this way.
    Why would you take a bag to the football in any event. That was only necessary when you used to take your own booze to the games , and that was a long time ago.
    A Southampton fan travelling to Newcastle for a midweek 8.00 pm kick-off will need an overnight bag.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    Those statistics don't reflect my memory....

    But hey I'm happy that you think HS2 is cancelled and everything is going to be all right.

    I'm looking forward to the screams when people discover everything they were told on Thursday is based on fantasies (all the new "plans") and lies (yup your house is still blighted).
    I have no idea about HS2 and I have no idea how it will play, but the 28% figure from yesterday does not indicate that it is a widely popular scheme. From this site over the past 2 days you would think that figure would be 90%.
  • malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    That Labour majority figure is way too high - I really can't see how it occurs without a complete Tory collapse.

    For that 16% to make sense the chance of a Tory majority needs to be about 10% not 36%.

    It would need Labour to recover quite dramatically in Scotland
    As much chance of that as me being the next Pope
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, @TheScreamingEagles - how are Liverpool fans tolerating this nonsense:

    https://www.liverpoolfc.com/fans/fan-experience/getting-to-anfield/stadium-checklist

    Make sure you allow enough time for any necessary security checks which may include random searches. Small personal bags are permitted - please ensure your bags are no larger than A5 and only one bag per person is allowed. It is advised you only bring a bag if it is absolutely essential, please see our checklist of what can/cannot be brought in to the stadium here.

    Arsenal tried to do something similar at the start of the season (you could only use a clear bag purchased from the Arsenal shop for £1), but thankfully enough fans kicked off that they reverted to allowing reasonable sized rucksacks in.

    Not happy, the fan groups have been liaising with the club. There kick offs for a couple of pre season friendlies were delayed because the system couldn’t cope.

    The club have offered £2 pints and cheaper food to allow the fans to get to the ground earlier.

    But the teething problems aren’t as bad as they were in July/August.
    Interesting that Liverpool have persisted with the policy. Arsenal folded after a couple of games! I only looked up Liverpool's policy, because I got this email from Arsenal yesterday:

    We have been advised by Liverpool FC that there will be a zero-bag policy enforced (with the exception of medical bags) for supporters entering the stadium on Saturday, November 20, 2021.

    There will be no bag drop/storage facility at the stadium so please avoid bringing a bag with you as you will be refused entry.


    Not a problem for me as I drive to away games outside of London, but it's not great that away fans are being discriminated against in this way.
    Why would you take a bag to the football in any event. That was only necessary when you used to take your own booze to the games , and that was a long time ago.
    A Southampton fan travelling to Newcastle for a midweek 8.00 pm kick-off will need an overnight bag.
    Not for much longer. ShappTrains inc will be running services to get them back before midnight (to be delivered long after he has left office of course).
  • eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    Those statistics don't reflect my memory....

    But hey I'm happy that you think HS2 is cancelled and everything is going to be all right.

    I'm looking forward to the screams when people discover everything they were told on Thursday is based on fantasies (all the new "plans") and lies (yup your house is still blighted).
    I have no idea about HS2 and I have no idea how it will play, but the 28% figure from yesterday does not indicate that it is a widely popular scheme. From this site over the past 2 days you would think that figure would be 90%.
    Also from the angry response of so many red wall Tory MPs presumably from their email boxes from angry constituents.

    Again, if you think yesterday is a Good Thing for your Tories, good luck.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    Those statistics don't reflect my memory....

    But hey I'm happy that you think HS2 is cancelled and everything is going to be all right.

    I'm looking forward to the screams when people discover everything they were told on Thursday is based on fantasies (all the new "plans") and lies (yup your house is still blighted).
    I have no idea about HS2 and I have no idea how it will play, but the 28% figure from yesterday does not indicate that it is a widely popular scheme. From this site over the past 2 days you would think that figure would be 90%.
    This site isn't the general public (heck it's probably one of the most educated sites in the country).
  • Andy_JS said:

    Sad news — Anthony Well's UKPollingReport is finally going to shut down. It's been going since 2004. The constituency section of the site hadn't been updated for a long time so it always looked like it might close down.

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/10166/comment-page-1#comments

    That's a shame. I started following him in about 2004 and was a BTL commentator there originally before moving over here instead eventually. He's done a very good job but wanting to step down is entirely understandable.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    He needs to get on the back benches for the divorce so the alimony is based on £82,000 income

    This incident really says everything that needs saying about him
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    This one thinks he is a just useless tw*t and almost as useless as Boris. I just see him as another useless London donkey. Brown was dour. He is also anti democracy and so how anyone in Scotland would want to vote for him or the fake Scottish Labour party amazes me. At least with SNP it is a Scottish party you are voting for even if full of fakes.
  • While we all focused on east eu and Austria...

    In the US:

    "Average daily case reports have increased more than 20 percent over the past two weeks as outbreaks continue to worsen in the Upper Midwest."

    NY Times
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Is forcing people to get vaccinated compatible with human rights legislation?
    Yep - pandemics trump human rights but the question becomes whether vaccination is now a proportional response as we get closer to herd immunity.

    It's a tough one though as the other option is let the unvaccinated have a 10x great chance of dying while the population gets to herd immunity..
    Your first point definitely isn't true, the Netherlands and other countries in Europe have been hamstrung by human rights laws on implementing lockdown measures last year even with emergency laws in place.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    malcolmg said:


    It would need Labour to recover quite dramatically in Scotland

    As much chance of that as me being the next Pope
    Now that is something I would like to see. Next best thing to Father Jack taking over. :smiley:
  • IshmaelZ said:

    He needs to get on the back benches for the divorce so the alimony is based on £82,000 income

    This incident really says everything that needs saying about him

    You're really taking the New European as a credible source?

    Its a pro-EU zealot Daily Express with no readers.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "ALDC
    @ALDC
    ·
    15m
    BY-ELECTION RESULT

    West Devon DC, Bere Ferrers

    Con: 362
    Lab: 361
    Lib Dem: 216
    Green: 176

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat

    A bruising loss."

    https://twitter.com/ALDC/status/1461668744544112640
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    Selebian said:

    Charles said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    I haven’t been through the report but suspect that is strongly correlated to prior real estate ownership
    Only read the abstract, but it uses matching (with unsuccessful parliamentary candidates) and regression discontinuity (not absolutely convinced the latter makes sense - not enough very close to the win/lose boundary? - but I haven't read the detail; if the discontinuity is election it sounds more like interrupted time series...). Anyway, prior real estate ownership is unlikely to explain, unless successful parliamentary candidates have more than unsuccessful ones. The abstract also states the wealth is mainly from outside employment positions.

    Edit: Had a skim of the article - it is RD on whether elected or not, looking only at 'competitive' candidates. Potentially valid enough. A big caveat though - wealth is based on probate values, so only applies to MPs who have died. So, somewhat historical data and may depend in part on the backgrounds of the respective parties' MPs in that era. Although there's still the point that MPs who got elected did better than unsuccessful candidates. But maybe the Conservative party selected the 'right' kind of people for the more winnable seats...
    My point was more about asset classes

    Since 1980 you have seen massive outperformance of equities and property wages. So people with more wealth on becoming an MP are more likely to increase their wealth regardless of what they do as an MP.

    Basically the analysis is meaningless
    Successful candidates have a motive, and financial assistance, to buy a flat in London. Unsuccessful ones don't.
    Rather the Tories have the cash for the deposits and after that it is all free and paid for by the plebs. They also tend to be greedier and bigger grifters than their equivalents.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Apols if already posted, but this is the result of a LOL council by-election last night (from the LibDem councillors website):

    "BY-ELECTION RESULT

    West Devon DC, Bere Ferrers

    Con: 362
    Lab: 361
    Lib Dem: 216
    Green: 176

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat

    A bruising loss."

    PS - Bere Ferrers is in Sir Geoffrey Cox's constituency.
  • On Starmer's changed view of HS2 I wonder if he has thought this through

    The whole costs of both HS2 and NPR will now be additional to the total 96 billion announced and in view of his other high spending commitments on home insulation and green investment where is all this money coming from

    It will be popular in metropolitan areas but these are already labour but with just 28% giving it the thumbs up yesterday it may not be the vote winner he thinks it is

    Furthermore his opposition to HS2 is going to be played on repeat and has he thought how the Greens will react as he could lose supporters to the Greens

    In politics nothing is as simple as it seems

    Lets pick this apart:
    1. The "£96bn announced" hasn't been announced. Its a press release statement with nothing behind it. As an example, part of your £96bn is the 12-minute journey time Leeds to Bradford which isn't even yet a project, its an "we'll ask Network Rail" and will then be "subject to a business case" and treasury approval.
    2. When you strip away pre-announced and already budgeted monies the total is £54bn. So no, HS2E / NPR is not additional to the £96bn £54bn -large chunks are still HS2E / NPR
    3. Where the money comes from is where all the money comes from. We borrow money. Invest in something. Receive a return on the investment. Its called "capitalism"
    4. From the sizeable choir of angry red wall Tories and at least one mayor, the areas in question are not already Labour.
    5. Opposition to 2015 Euston plans - which have already been curtailed - is not going to get Boris off the hook. People are not stupid.

    Big_G, you are supposedly past your previous "defend at all costs" position. This isn't even a shit sandwich as they have cancelled the bread roll. All the people celebrating the end of blight on their homes are now realising the blight continues indefinitely. All the people being told "this delivers quicker" can see that the previous 2043 timeline is now a much sooner 2043.

    Please stop. They aren't worth it. Let the remaining PB parrots try and excuse this fiasco.
    I am not taking any lectures from someone who is anti anything HMG does and yesterday was fine by me and many others

    Your idea you are always the expert, always right, and attempts to insult those who see things differently referring to them as stupid is arrogant and simply an attempt to close down debate
  • malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    That Labour majority figure is way too high - I really can't see how it occurs without a complete Tory collapse.

    For that 16% to make sense the chance of a Tory majority needs to be about 10% not 36%.

    It would need Labour to recover quite dramatically in Scotland
    As much chance of that as me being the next Pope
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, @TheScreamingEagles - how are Liverpool fans tolerating this nonsense:

    https://www.liverpoolfc.com/fans/fan-experience/getting-to-anfield/stadium-checklist

    Make sure you allow enough time for any necessary security checks which may include random searches. Small personal bags are permitted - please ensure your bags are no larger than A5 and only one bag per person is allowed. It is advised you only bring a bag if it is absolutely essential, please see our checklist of what can/cannot be brought in to the stadium here.

    Arsenal tried to do something similar at the start of the season (you could only use a clear bag purchased from the Arsenal shop for £1), but thankfully enough fans kicked off that they reverted to allowing reasonable sized rucksacks in.

    Not happy, the fan groups have been liaising with the club. There kick offs for a couple of pre season friendlies were delayed because the system couldn’t cope.

    The club have offered £2 pints and cheaper food to allow the fans to get to the ground earlier.

    But the teething problems aren’t as bad as they were in July/August.
    Interesting that Liverpool have persisted with the policy. Arsenal folded after a couple of games! I only looked up Liverpool's policy, because I got this email from Arsenal yesterday:

    We have been advised by Liverpool FC that there will be a zero-bag policy enforced (with the exception of medical bags) for supporters entering the stadium on Saturday, November 20, 2021.

    There will be no bag drop/storage facility at the stadium so please avoid bringing a bag with you as you will be refused entry.


    Not a problem for me as I drive to away games outside of London, but it's not great that away fans are being discriminated against in this way.
    Why would you take a bag to the football in any event. That was only necessary when you used to take your own booze to the games , and that was a long time ago.
    A Southampton fan travelling to Newcastle for a midweek 8.00 pm kick-off will need an overnight bag.
    and google translate
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    Someone's knifing him. Probably Rishi - he can pluck numbers out of his arse to frighten Johnson in the absolute certainty Johnson won't understand them.
    The only thing that makes sense is that Sunak has panicked about interest rate rises whacking the public finances and has therefore somehow scared Johnson into breaking cast iron promises over rail. Even that doesn't make sense as this is investment over decades not day to day spending.

    So we are left with just Sunak trying to help bring forward the day Johnson is booted out.
    I'm not convinced. I think a more likely scenario is that Johnson wants to be able to make plenty of new expensive promises at the next election, and Sunak has told him he has to jettison some of his expensive promises from the last election first.

    This might sound like a political tactic with diminishing returns, but then I've been continually surprised by the general public's willingness to trust Johnson, so I am ready to be amazed when they do so again.
    The bridge to Ireland is back on!
    I thought it was a 3-way tunnel, with a roundabout underneath the Isle Of Man.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2021/11/19/watch-starmers-train-crash-hs2-interview/

    Starmer wanted the London terminus to be at Old Oak Common.

    So he's even more of an idiot than those running the show now.

    Local MP not wanting project their constituents don't want - hardly news.
    Local MP changing mind now work has began, equally not news unless you are utterly stupid.
    Nope, as a local MP he was happy to pander to NIMBYISM - prioritising poshos in London over the North of England. That's the character of the man right there. The Tories should go hard on it.
    OK. Lets consider how that attack line plays out in the context of the Tories just having shafted the north of England and lied to them about having done so...
    All this "shafting the North of England" stuff about HS2, as I said earlier for years so many posters on here have said what a complete waste of money HS2 was, now part of it has been cancelled it is suddenly the greatest engineering project ever.
    The people who think the north has been shafted aren't necessarily the same people you refer to. Look at newspapers up north. TV. Hear red wall Tory MPs. They expected what they were promised. You aren't going to make them happy to keep voting Tory by both shafting them and then sneering at them that they are mistaken in being shafted.
    My point is, is HS2 as popular as this site would seem to think it is since part of it has been cancelled. I would estimate that over the past two years the anti and pro HS2 posts have been 4 to 1 in favour of the anti stance, yet since part of it has been cancelled it has changed to 99 to 1 in favour of HS2.
    Those statistics don't reflect my memory....

    But hey I'm happy that you think HS2 is cancelled and everything is going to be all right.

    I'm looking forward to the screams when people discover everything they were told on Thursday is based on fantasies (all the new "plans") and lies (yup your house is still blighted).
    I have no idea about HS2 and I have no idea how it will play, but the 28% figure from yesterday does not indicate that it is a widely popular scheme. From this site over the past 2 days you would think that figure would be 90%.
    We've established multiple times that this site isn't representative of the public at large. Big deal.

    There have been robust debates over HS2 on here before, and it's normal for those upset about a change to be more vocal about it. Again, I'm just not seeing what point you're making.

    Obviously you always get a couple of people who overreact to anything, and identify it as the straw that will break the back of the camel of the day. It's good to see people excited, even if I expect they will be disappointed.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ..…
  • While we all focused on east eu and Austria...

    In the US:

    "Average daily case reports have increased more than 20 percent over the past two weeks as outbreaks continue to worsen in the Upper Midwest."

    NY Times

    England's going to be one of the few countries in the western Northern hemisphere that isn't in lockdown over winter isn't it?

    What a shame these countries flapped about with masks and restrictions over the summer and autumn. Completely stupid to be wearing masks and doing any activity to suppress infections in the summer post-vaccinations.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    He needs to get on the back benches for the divorce so the alimony is based on £82,000 income

    This incident really says everything that needs saying about him

    You're really taking the New European as a credible source?

    Its a pro-EU zealot Daily Express with no readers.
    I know that.

    The remark was made, or wasn't, in the presence of 40 journalists. I take the report plus the declining to issue legal proceedings, in conjunction, as being about as certain as anything in this life is.

    Allegedly.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    I disagree with the Austrian policy, but have much less issue with the French strategy.

    Frankly, banning the unvaccinated from certain activities is not that uncontroversial. After all, the costs of the unvaccinated (such as health care) fall on all the citizens.
    Yeah the best policy I've heard on it is making unvaccinated by choice people get additional insurance cover for COVID healthcare costs and if they don't then bill them for the cost of care.
    Unfortunately that wouldn't work here but it does sound like a good policy. I am pro-vax too but would not want to force anyone to have the jab.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799

    While we all focused on east eu and Austria...

    In the US:

    "Average daily case reports have increased more than 20 percent over the past two weeks as outbreaks continue to worsen in the Upper Midwest."

    NY Times

    England's going to be one of the few countries in the western Northern hemisphere that isn't in lockdown over winter isn't it?

    What a shame these countries flapped about with masks and restrictions over the summer and autumn. Completely stupid to be wearing masks and doing any activity to suppress infections in the summer post-vaccinations.
    Nah the US won't lockdown. It's not in their nature.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    That Labour majority is starting to tempt me... but it's probably just heart over head nonsense.

    In other news, the financial times unearthed this gem of a political study from 2009: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59819

    Key line "we find that serving in office almost doubled the wealth of Conservative MPs, but had no discernible financial benefits for Labour MPs."

    Labour has 203 seats - to have a majority they need something like 322 (assuming Sinn Fein don't send MPs).

    Where are those 119 seats, given Labours issues in Scotland (which previously sent 50+ labour MPs into Parliament) they just don't exist.
    For political purposes Labour need to win about 119 seats for a majority. For betting purposes it needs to win (net) 122/3 - to be at 325/6.

    This requires a Black Swan. About 26 of their top 150 targets are held by the SNP. Among their top 150 targets (statistically) are seats they will never win - Hexham for example, or Rushcliffe, or Macclesfield. All their top 150 are held by Tories or SNP.

    Their Black Swan requires the following:
    SNP to lose ground to Labour
    The Tories to lose more or less the entire red wall
    The Tories to lose seats to Labour they have never lost in modern times, including in the south - such as Basingstoke.

    While Labour leading the next government is easy - it's about a 50% chance - actually winning remains out of sight for now.

    I don't agree with this at all. It's hardly a black swan when it happened 16 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 24 years ago.
    Fortunes change very quickly in politics, and it's very easy to imagine events that could precipitate such a changeover. Remember, Labour got where they are today. It's hardly beyond the realm of imagination to think the Conservatives can land themselves in a similar situation. A couple of white swans is easily enough to tip the electoral see-saw the other way.
    Labour's problem remains Scotland. They simply can't win enough seats south of the wall to win a majority without it being a landslide win for them. I know those happen now and then but its not an obvious play to sit and wait to win swathes of leafy England again.

    They need Scotland. And I cannot see how they get it back, at least not yet. All political parties falter eventually, but I don't see how the SNP landslide reverses bigly within the next 2 years.
    Yes. To get the sort of landslide shift needed to have a majority of one, (let alone a working majority) Labour have a mountain to climb. In 1997 there were several relevant factors: the Tories had an insoluble problem with both political and moral reputation, like now only worse, in a world which was a generation more moral and less cynical than now. Much of Scotland was still Labour. And Labour had put the work into moderation, presentation and leadership at a level of genius which is miles away from Labour now. Labour still had heavyweight, bruising politicians in it. Compare with now...

    Yep. Starmer no Blair. SNP unlikely to collapse completely, even if Conservatives self-destruct.

    I don't put the likelihood as high as Philip, but there's value in laying Labour and - probably - in the Tory majority (I would put the probability of that > 36%). Only slight wobble on that is the complete ineptitude, political as well as policy, shown over the last few weeks.

    I'm only on Con most seats and laying the Labour majority (both placed some time ago). I'm sticking with that, I think. If I didn't have any bets on next GE I'd be tempted by the Con majority. All those bets are against what I hope will happen, except maybe the Lab majority where I might still prefer a Lib-Lab coalition.
    If Sturgeon is still FM at the time of the next General Election, Labour have little chance in Scotland. She has Reagan levels qualities of Teflon attaching to her and a high personal vote.

    But if she goes, then conceivably Central Belt voters may put (to some extent) the constitutional question to one side, and decide pragmatically that getting rid of the Tories at Westminster can best be achieved by voting Labour. Remember these areas used to deliver a titanic Labour vote and there remains a fair amount of goodwill towards the party.

    Also, Starmer, personally, dour as he is, fits the Scottish psyche pretty well. The one part of the country where Theresa May played well in 2017 was Scotland (12 gains). Scots like dour politicians. Sir Keir may surprise us yet.
    The trouble I have with that analysis is that the SNP are already displacing Tories at Westminster fairly [edit] successfully. So if displacing Tories is your aim, why vote Labour? IIRC all the existing Tory seats are Tory-SNP battlegrounds, so again why vote Labour there?
    Hello Carnyx, you could have just said it was bollox and saved yourself some time.
  • MaxPB said:

    While we all focused on east eu and Austria...

    In the US:

    "Average daily case reports have increased more than 20 percent over the past two weeks as outbreaks continue to worsen in the Upper Midwest."

    NY Times

    England's going to be one of the few countries in the western Northern hemisphere that isn't in lockdown over winter isn't it?

    What a shame these countries flapped about with masks and restrictions over the summer and autumn. Completely stupid to be wearing masks and doing any activity to suppress infections in the summer post-vaccinations.
    Nah the US won't lockdown. It's not in their nature.
    The US won't but I suspect at least a few blue states within the USA will.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    edited November 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?

    Someone's knifing him. Probably Rishi - he can pluck numbers out of his arse to frighten Johnson in the absolute certainty Johnson won't understand them.
    The only thing that makes sense is that Sunak has panicked about interest rate rises whacking the public finances and has therefore somehow scared Johnson into breaking cast iron promises over rail. Even that doesn't make sense as this is investment over decades not day to day spending.

    So we are left with just Sunak trying to help bring forward the day Johnson is booted out.
    I'm not convinced. I think a more likely scenario is that Johnson wants to be able to make plenty of new expensive promises at the next election, and Sunak has told him he has to jettison some of his expensive promises from the last election first.

    This might sound like a political tactic with diminishing returns, but then I've been continually surprised by the general public's willingness to trust Johnson, so I am ready to be amazed when they do so again.
    The bridge to Ireland is back on!
    I thought it was a 3-way tunnel, with a roundabout underneath the Isle Of Man.
    It's an easier fantasy to imagine than the fantasy improvements announced for the ECML?

    https://twitter.com/RAIL is currently trying to identify the flows - and one is literally the need to redesign every station between London and Northallerton followed by Durham and Newcastle (I exclude Darlington only because that's now in progress).

    And most of those projects would be £x00m projects by themselves because it requires redesigning everything.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?


    My best guess is that he has been influenced by Carrie, who is opposed on environmental grounds?

    https://www.endsreport.com/article/1716657/whos-pulling-green-strings-number-10
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    edited November 2021

    On Starmer's changed view of HS2 I wonder if he has thought this through

    The whole costs of both HS2 and NPR will now be additional to the total 96 billion announced and in view of his other high spending commitments on home insulation and green investment where is all this money coming from

    It will be popular in metropolitan areas but these are already labour but with just 28% giving it the thumbs up yesterday it may not be the vote winner he thinks it is

    Furthermore his opposition to HS2 is going to be played on repeat and has he thought how the Greens will react as he could lose supporters to the Greens

    In politics nothing is as simple as it seems

    Lets pick this apart:
    1. The "£96bn announced" hasn't been announced. Its a press release statement with nothing behind it. As an example, part of your £96bn is the 12-minute journey time Leeds to Bradford which isn't even yet a project, its an "we'll ask Network Rail" and will then be "subject to a business case" and treasury approval.
    2. When you strip away pre-announced and already budgeted monies the total is £54bn. So no, HS2E / NPR is not additional to the £96bn £54bn -large chunks are still HS2E / NPR
    3. Where the money comes from is where all the money comes from. We borrow money. Invest in something. Receive a return on the investment. Its called "capitalism"
    4. From the sizeable choir of angry red wall Tories and at least one mayor, the areas in question are not already Labour.
    5. Opposition to 2015 Euston plans - which have already been curtailed - is not going to get Boris off the hook. People are not stupid.

    Big_G, you are supposedly past your previous "defend at all costs" position. This isn't even a shit sandwich as they have cancelled the bread roll. All the people celebrating the end of blight on their homes are now realising the blight continues indefinitely. All the people being told "this delivers quicker" can see that the previous 2043 timeline is now a much sooner 2043.

    Please stop. They aren't worth it. Let the remaining PB parrots try and excuse this fiasco.
    I am not taking any lectures from someone who is anti anything HMG does and yesterday was fine by me and many others

    Your idea you are always the expert, always right, and attempts to insult those who see things differently referring to them as stupid is arrogant and simply an attempt to close down debate
    How about me then? There is nothing in what RD says that isn't 100% accurate no matter how much you dislike the fact..

    But tell me, exactly what actual improvements were announced yesterday that can and will be started within the next 5-10 years?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,571
    Bu**er. Something hit me halfway through my run today. Felt like sh*t after just three miles; struggled to complete a little over 10KM. Stomach ache, headache, nausea. Very unusual symptoms for me.

    Came back to an email from school, saying Covid cases in the little 'uns class had accelerated over the last two days, and that they are encouraging us to book a PCR test for him over the weekend.

    So I've just taken an LFT test, and am awaiting the results. Hoping it was just that the milk I had with my grape nuts this morning was a little off. Or exhaustion from all the running ...
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now.
    I'm breaking my pledges because I don't give a damn about Yorkshire and the NE.
    Red Wall Tory MPs - start job hunting because in 2023 you are going to need to find a new career.
    I sometimes, briefly, wonder what happens to one-term MP's. Fairly easy to go back to their old jobs of course.
    Or, indeed, to new jobs acquired while serving as an MP...

    The ones I feel a bit sorry for are the Con MPs who lost their seats in 2017 only two years into what should have been a five year contract. But then, they should have made a better choice of leader (not that they had much of a choice when it came to the voting, but there must have been someone decent they could have nominated)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    That Labour majority figure is way too high - I really can't see how it occurs without a complete Tory collapse.

    For that 16% to make sense the chance of a Tory majority needs to be about 10% not 36%.

    It would need Labour to recover quite dramatically in Scotland
    As much chance of that as me being the next Pope
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, @TheScreamingEagles - how are Liverpool fans tolerating this nonsense:

    https://www.liverpoolfc.com/fans/fan-experience/getting-to-anfield/stadium-checklist

    Make sure you allow enough time for any necessary security checks which may include random searches. Small personal bags are permitted - please ensure your bags are no larger than A5 and only one bag per person is allowed. It is advised you only bring a bag if it is absolutely essential, please see our checklist of what can/cannot be brought in to the stadium here.

    Arsenal tried to do something similar at the start of the season (you could only use a clear bag purchased from the Arsenal shop for £1), but thankfully enough fans kicked off that they reverted to allowing reasonable sized rucksacks in.

    Not happy, the fan groups have been liaising with the club. There kick offs for a couple of pre season friendlies were delayed because the system couldn’t cope.

    The club have offered £2 pints and cheaper food to allow the fans to get to the ground earlier.

    But the teething problems aren’t as bad as they were in July/August.
    Interesting that Liverpool have persisted with the policy. Arsenal folded after a couple of games! I only looked up Liverpool's policy, because I got this email from Arsenal yesterday:

    We have been advised by Liverpool FC that there will be a zero-bag policy enforced (with the exception of medical bags) for supporters entering the stadium on Saturday, November 20, 2021.

    There will be no bag drop/storage facility at the stadium so please avoid bringing a bag with you as you will be refused entry.


    Not a problem for me as I drive to away games outside of London, but it's not great that away fans are being discriminated against in this way.
    Why would you take a bag to the football in any event. That was only necessary when you used to take your own booze to the games , and that was a long time ago.
    A Southampton fan travelling to Newcastle for a midweek 8.00 pm kick-off will need an overnight bag.
    True but personally I would have dumped it at hotel and had a few beers before the game.
  • Haven't seen any source for this story, just this tweet quoted -

    Paul Delaney
    @coaimpaul
    Priti Patel is to make the political wing of Hamas illegal under the Terrorism Act. It means anyone who expresses support for Hamas or flies their flag will be in breach of the law. Her Israeli handlers are now demanding more from her, while they murder with impunity.
    https://twitter.com/coaimpaul/status/1461614417427288064

    When I googled images of the Hamas flag, lots of them are from a story earlier in the year about Germany introducing the same law earlier this year.

    Are the German government also thought to have Israeli handlers, or is expression of support for Hamas just widely condemned?

    Incidentally I happened to click on the link for the story from Al Jazeera, where the cookie warning seems rather ominous..

    "You rely on Al Jazeera for truth and transparency"

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/25/hamas-flag-banned-in-germany-under-new-terror-rules
  • eekeek Posts: 28,367
    Selebian said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    1. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that NPR (including a new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford) would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    2. Boris gave a cast-iron guarantee that the Eastern leg of HS2 would be built. Yesterday he cancelled it.
    3. Back in 2015 (when he first became an MP) Starmer opposed HS2 because of the impact it would have on his constituency.
    4. Therefore 1. and 2. are Starmer's fault, not Boris's.

    The Tories on here really are desperate today. Boris broke his promises yesterday, simple as.

    Yep, but as he may well say, and has said, he didn't pledge a global pandemic either. Not sure if that line will work but it's not unreasonable given the dosh spent on furloughing etc.
    But surely the point is that Boris is arguing that he hasn't broken his promises on rail. He's lying.
    I, and others, might be more sympathetic if he'd said yes, I'm breaking my pledges because Covid means we can't afford it now.
    I'm breaking my pledges because I don't give a damn about Yorkshire and the NE.
    Red Wall Tory MPs - start job hunting because in 2023 you are going to need to find a new career.
    I sometimes, briefly, wonder what happens to one-term MP's. Fairly easy to go back to their old jobs of course.
    Or, indeed, to new jobs acquired while serving as an MP...

    The ones I feel a bit sorry for are the Con MPs who lost their seats in 2017 only two years into what should have been a five year contract. But then, they should have made a better choice of leader (not that they had much of a choice when it came to the voting, but there must have been someone decent they could have nominated)
    Look at the options - the saner choices were Boris and Gove.

    It's only post 2017 that possible other options have appeared.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Carnyx said:

    Obviously I'm not going not repeat what was alleged to have been said, but could end up in a VERY messy fight.
    Maybe not..

    @PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Downing Street have DENIED they are taking legal action against The New European
    Who would have paid the legal fees [edit] in the purely hypothetical case of a case being brought? HMG or Mr Johnson personally?
    Phone a friend more like, though looks like it would have cost them plenty given the news.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited November 2021
    i look at the Continent and do feel a bit sorry for the population under their weak but authoritarian leaders who shoudl have all lifted restrictions in summer , meanwhile in Free England cases falling (well done boris - great call)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Austria are making vaccination compulsory. That seems completely mental. I'm about as pro-vax as anyone can be but the idea of the state mandating what someone can and can't do with their own body seems crazy. It's ultimately the same reason I'm in favour of abortion, contraception and any other medical intervention based on personal choice.

    We're watching Europe go down a really authoritarian path right now and it's very worrying.

    Well if it results in Austria getting 100% double vaccination it should ensure they have the lowest Covid death rate in Europe, maybe even the world, from next year.

    However yes I do have concerns about the compulsion element too
    They are already at 50% of UK rate per head of population.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Bu**er. Something hit me halfway through my run today. Felt like sh*t after just three miles; struggled to complete a little over 10KM. Stomach ache, headache, nausea. Very unusual symptoms for me.

    Came back to an email from school, saying Covid cases in the little 'uns class had accelerated over the last two days, and that they are encouraging us to book a PCR test for him over the weekend.

    So I've just taken an LFT test, and am awaiting the results. Hoping it was just that the milk I had with my grape nuts this morning was a little off. Or exhaustion from all the running ...

    From my experience if you have a strong case of Covid it will show up on the LFT in less than a couple of minutes.

    Anecdotally where we are Covid is now hitting the primary schools. Before half term it was the secondaries. My Y12 daughter's school of over 1,300 students has just 5 current cases whereas in some weeks before half term they had over 100. My Y4 son's junior school of less than 400 students there are now 12 off in Y6 alone and I suspect more will follow. One of my friend's daughters in Y6 got it and has now spread it to the 2 other children and him.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    Personal announcement. After 21 years, I have decided to move on from the BBC.l leave behind many happy memories and wonderful colleagues. But from the New Year I am moving to Global to write and present political and cultural shows, and to write for newspapers
    https://twitter.com/AndrewMarr9/status/1461676404475666436
  • eek said:

    On Starmer's changed view of HS2 I wonder if he has thought this through

    The whole costs of both HS2 and NPR will now be additional to the total 96 billion announced and in view of his other high spending commitments on home insulation and green investment where is all this money coming from

    It will be popular in metropolitan areas but these are already labour but with just 28% giving it the thumbs up yesterday it may not be the vote winner he thinks it is

    Furthermore his opposition to HS2 is going to be played on repeat and has he thought how the Greens will react as he could lose supporters to the Greens

    In politics nothing is as simple as it seems

    Lets pick this apart:
    1. The "£96bn announced" hasn't been announced. Its a press release statement with nothing behind it. As an example, part of your £96bn is the 12-minute journey time Leeds to Bradford which isn't even yet a project, its an "we'll ask Network Rail" and will then be "subject to a business case" and treasury approval.
    2. When you strip away pre-announced and already budgeted monies the total is £54bn. So no, HS2E / NPR is not additional to the £96bn £54bn -large chunks are still HS2E / NPR
    3. Where the money comes from is where all the money comes from. We borrow money. Invest in something. Receive a return on the investment. Its called "capitalism"
    4. From the sizeable choir of angry red wall Tories and at least one mayor, the areas in question are not already Labour.
    5. Opposition to 2015 Euston plans - which have already been curtailed - is not going to get Boris off the hook. People are not stupid.

    Big_G, you are supposedly past your previous "defend at all costs" position. This isn't even a shit sandwich as they have cancelled the bread roll. All the people celebrating the end of blight on their homes are now realising the blight continues indefinitely. All the people being told "this delivers quicker" can see that the previous 2043 timeline is now a much sooner 2043.

    Please stop. They aren't worth it. Let the remaining PB parrots try and excuse this fiasco.
    I am not taking any lectures from someone who is anti anything HMG does and yesterday was fine by me and many others

    Your idea you are always the expert, always right, and attempts to insult those who see things differently referring to them as stupid is arrogant and simply an attempt to close down debate
    How about me then? There is nothing in what RD says that isn't 100% accurate no matter how much you dislike the fact..

    But tell me, exactly what actual improvements were announced yesterday that can and will be started within the next 5-10 years?
    HS2 is ongoing and other schemes will commence but in a total 96 billion investment, including Birmingham to Manchester, it is going to take a very long time

    However, persuading yourself and others on here is not going to be possible, so I believe we should agree to disagree but not resort to name calling including stupid and other arrogant attitudes
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    To the small extent that I give a fuck about any of this train bollocks the thing that puzzles me is why Johnson is doing it. He's going to be long gone before it's the inevitable expensive fiasco and he clearly doesn't give a toss about spending money so why is he binning it? Is he just pathologically addicted to breaking promises?


    My best guess is that he has been influenced by Carrie, who is opposed on environmental grounds?

    https://www.endsreport.com/article/1716657/whos-pulling-green-strings-number-10
    Carrick dinner was 2 weeks ago, which gives her time to have heard what he said at it, and demand this as reparations.

    Not joking.
  • Haven't seen any source for this story, just this tweet quoted -

    Paul Delaney
    @coaimpaul
    Priti Patel is to make the political wing of Hamas illegal under the Terrorism Act. It means anyone who expresses support for Hamas or flies their flag will be in breach of the law. Her Israeli handlers are now demanding more from her, while they murder with impunity.
    https://twitter.com/coaimpaul/status/1461614417427288064

    When I googled images of the Hamas flag, lots of them are from a story earlier in the year about Germany introducing the same law earlier this year.

    Are the German government also thought to have Israeli handlers, or is expression of support for Hamas just widely condemned?

    Incidentally I happened to click on the link for the story from Al Jazeera, where the cookie warning seems rather ominous..

    "You rely on Al Jazeera for truth and transparency"

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/25/hamas-flag-banned-in-germany-under-new-terror-rules

    Dont really see what this will do and is part of the "something must be seen to be do something and be seen to be able to solve all issues " type of government social media especially encourages - bit like telling people to wear useless facemasks in summer in most of Europe (England an honourable exception)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    IshmaelZ said:

    "Around thirty current and former journalists from the Telegraph were present at the Garrick Club dinner." One of them, ex hypothesi, a bean-spiller. Plus waiting staff.

    Wowser.

    ETA how utterly splendid if his cor lumme public speaking style, and a woman scorned, turn out to be his nemeses.
    Another one of his pathetic jokes gone wrong.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Haven't seen any source for this story, just this tweet quoted -

    Paul Delaney
    @coaimpaul
    Priti Patel is to make the political wing of Hamas illegal under the Terrorism Act. It means anyone who expresses support for Hamas or flies their flag will be in breach of the law. Her Israeli handlers are now demanding more from her, while they murder with impunity.
    https://twitter.com/coaimpaul/status/1461614417427288064

    When I googled images of the Hamas flag, lots of them are from a story earlier in the year about Germany introducing the same law earlier this year.

    Are the German government also thought to have Israeli handlers, or is expression of support for Hamas just widely condemned?

    Incidentally I happened to click on the link for the story from Al Jazeera, where the cookie warning seems rather ominous..

    "You rely on Al Jazeera for truth and transparency"

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/25/hamas-flag-banned-in-germany-under-new-terror-rules

    I appreciate you are quoting but "her Israeli handlers". Is that a serious comment ?
This discussion has been closed.