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Sleazy does it – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 14 in General
Sleazy does it – politicalbetting.com

Boris Johnson has said the UK is "not remotely a corrupt country", but the British public resoundingly disagree. 80% think corruption is either fairly (40%) or very (40%) present in British politics. Only 1% think there is no corruption at allhttps://t.co/SZd3FDoiiN pic.twitter.com/0oI36OWpgP

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    A PM is bound to say the country is not corrupt, what choice does he have?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,080
    The UK is not a corrupt country - which is why Boris will likely get turfed out of No10 in due course.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Nigelb said:

    The UK is not a corrupt country - which is why Boris will likely get turfed out of No10 in due course.

    David Cameron won the 2015 General Election...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    IshmaelZ said:

    A PM is bound to say the country is not corrupt, what choice does he have?

    Indeed, but the riposte has been "The Country is not corrupt, the Government is"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,080
    IshmaelZ said:

    A PM is bound to say the country is not corrupt, what choice does he have?

    There’s always the one of keeping his trap shut.
    Though difficult for him, I guess.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236
    Johnson probably doesn’t know what the word means. The killer comment IMHO, was that from the Nigerian chap.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    I think people may have an over broad view of what constitutes corruption. Other places have much more blatant and serious corruption and that does not excuse the levels we do get or the examples we see, but categorising what we mean is pretty important, so we know how big the problem is, how serious it is, and how we can fix it - since rampant bribery in a political culture requires a different solution to too many conflicts of interest or failure to exlude one's self from decision making, or taking free holidays. Each important to stamp out, but different approaches needed.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 864
    Damn it I missed another Scottish thread.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 867
    edited November 14
    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    kle4 said:

    I think people may have an over broad view of what constitutes corruption. Other places have much more blatant and serious corruption and that does not excuse the levels we do get or the examples we see, but categorising what we mean is pretty important, so we know how big the problem is, how serious it is, and how we can fix it - since rampant bribery in a political culture requires a different solution to too many conflicts of interest or failure to exlude one's self from decision making, or taking free holidays. Each important to stamp out, but different approaches needed.

    I think you take an overly generous view. Greensill was full on corruption.
  • pingping Posts: 1,421
    https://www.ft.com/content/062b5655-28b3-4bf8-9629-c3eac803c3f3

    A great narrative piece in the ft (free to read) about suicide. 3x as many people die from suicide vs road accidents.

    Come on Britain. We can do better than this.
  • Apropos of nothing really except the fact my daughter has just written an article about time. But weird fact of the day:

    If Einstein was right in his theory of General relativity then the centre of the Earth is two and a half years younger than the surface.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    The Economist. Today


  • Cicero said:

    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.

    The trouble is that most of the alternative systems proposed would not make MPs more beholden to the public but instead more beholden to their parties. There are exceptions of course but they don't seem to be the ones most people in favour of electoral reform are campaigning for.
  • Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
  • On topic, it is sad - and to my mind symptomatic of the utter unsuitability of Johnson to be anywhere near political power - that TSE even needs to articulate these obvious facts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    They could just be missing Philip?

    Or maybe Harry.

    Ok. Maybe not the second.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    ping said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/062b5655-28b3-4bf8-9629-c3eac803c3f3

    A great narrative piece in the ft (free to read) about suicide. 3x as many people die from suicide vs road accidents.

    Come on Britain. We can do better than this.

    We could light a fire, maybe sing some songs? I mean, bracing tone you adopt there, but incurable schizophrenia is incurable schizophrenia. It's a lovely idea that with more psychiatrists or whatever the problem would evaporate. It wouldn't.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    Leon said:

    The Economist. Today


    Guilty LOL
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 867
    edited November 14
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    There is no interegnum, The Prince of Wales is King immediately on the passing of Elizabeth II. "The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King!"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    IIRC, and I was at school at the time, it was Long Live the Queen PDQ. Don’t remember when the anthem was first sung, Feb 1962, again it wasn’t long.
    Of course, people hadn’t been expecting it, and the Heir was young and represented something new.
  • I was quite enjoying the tales of which musicians people know a few threads back, as well as the Bob Dylan Appreciation Society ones more recently, and have been reminded of my own friendship tale..

    I met a chap at a gig in London about 15 years ago called Weston Gavin. He's a folk musician and an actor. I've met him at least 20 times since, mostly at gigs but have also met up with him for drinks, met his daughters with him, sung with him on the streets in Soho (just for fun but some people thought we were busking!), and cooked for him once. He's a really lovely old guy and has the most amazing stories.

    He was born in 1935, and when he was three years old folk music legend Woody Guthrie stayed with his parents for a while, and he consequently grew up knowing Guthrie well which got him seriously into music. He signed for Epic in the mid 50s and released a few songs under the name Jimmy Gavin.

    This one is called Hitchhiking Man, and was released in 1956 - the year before Buddy Holly released That'll Be The Day, his first big hit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBwyf6hcQnQ

    He was performing in clubs in Greenwich Village into the early 60s (he shared a bill with John Lee Hooker in 1960 for a couple of weeks), when Dylan moved to New York to meet Woody Guthrie who was very ill in hospital. Weston is sure that Dylan came to at least two of his shows before anyone knew who Dylan was, and he went to Dylan's first NYC show (he wasn't impressed, and thought him a rather derivative Guthrie impersonator, but luckily Dylan got better!)

    Still under the name Jimmy, he was in a folk music/comedy duo called Turtles who in 1964 shared a bill at the Bitter End club with Cass Elliot and the Three Ts (which evolved into the Mugwumps, which split into the Lovin Spoonful and the Mamas and the Papas, the story of which is told in the Ms&Ps Creeque Alley). He released another song that was a minor hit in the UK in the mid 60s called I Sit In My Window, but then got more into his acting.

    He's probably most famous as the mugger in Superman who mugs Clark and Lois, and shoots at Clark who catches the bullet. But he's been in quite a lot of other stuff, including a fair bit of British TV; he was in a couple of episodes of a show from 1986 called Lost Empires with Colin Firth.
    https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0310545/

    I haven't seen him in a few years but we're friends on facebook and I'll definitely be letting him know when I'm next going to a gig in London as it'd be great to catch up.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 867

    Cicero said:

    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.

    The trouble is that most of the alternative systems proposed would not make MPs more beholden to the public but instead more beholden to their parties. There are exceptions of course but they don't seem to be the ones most people in favour of electoral reform are campaigning for.
    So choose the better system! NO lists, No ATV, especially since it makes it harder to elect independents, but STV does answer most of those questions, so choose that.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    I think people may have an over broad view of what constitutes corruption. Other places have much more blatant and serious corruption and that does not excuse the levels we do get or the examples we see, but categorising what we mean is pretty important, so we know how big the problem is, how serious it is, and how we can fix it - since rampant bribery in a political culture requires a different solution to too many conflicts of interest or failure to exlude one's self from decision making, or taking free holidays. Each important to stamp out, but different approaches needed.

    I think you take an overly generous view. Greensill was full on corruption.
    You misunderstand me. I'm not saying we never have full on corruption, but that if that is what people are thinking is happening a lot then they are likely mistaken. It doesn't mean we should be any less harsh in rooting out that type of corruption however uncommon it may be, or that the less direct and obvious forms are not very serious, because they are. But we need to be clear if we are saying we think the country is corrupt, what do we actually think is happening, and are we right about that? Do we think Greensil is commonplace? Because that might be wrong.

    But just because that might be so does not mean lower level stuff and the collapse of standards should be treated complacently - because if we allow people to get away with that it makes to more blatant stuff much more likely to occur.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    Monarchs love it too - history has shown trouble is far more likely when there are formal intervening steps, as people decide to chance their arm. Didn't stop chancers, but instant instututional authority probably helped incumbents I'd guess.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,080
    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/062b5655-28b3-4bf8-9629-c3eac803c3f3

    A great narrative piece in the ft (free to read) about suicide. 3x as many people die from suicide vs road accidents.

    Come on Britain. We can do better than this.

    We could light a fire, maybe sing some songs? I mean, bracing tone you adopt there, but incurable schizophrenia is incurable schizophrenia. It's a lovely idea that with more psychiatrists or whatever the problem would evaporate. It wouldn't.
    What percentage of suicides have schizophrenia ?
    10% ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Again IIRC, EVERYTHING, apart from work shut down. Radio was beyond tedious! We didn’t have a TV, but I think that shut down, too.pretty sure cinemas were closed.
  • tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236
    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably!
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,236

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably!
    Great minds!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022
    As Lord Evans, formerly DG MI5 remarked on Today - the UK is not a corrupt country but must remain vigilant in keeping it that way - which is why this row and acres of press coverage is a decidedly good thing. It's like murders - as long as they make front page news they're not that much of a problem to society at large. It's when they are listed with several others on page 17 in a short column that you've got a problem.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    I think the changing of that song will probably be the strangest part of the succession; it'd be like the lyrics to Bohemian Rhapsody being changed overnight.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited November 14

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    BBC 1, 2 and 4 will be interrupted and revert silently to their respective idents

    Thank goodness for avid viewers of BBC 3, whatever the heck plays on that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Presumably the plans include a point of no return for events. So they wouldn't call off a game with fans in and around the stadium.
  • Cicero said:

    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.

    FPTP turned out to be an excellent way of clearing out the utterly mendacious LibDems from the HoC.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Again IIRC, EVERYTHING, apart from work shut down. Radio was beyond tedious! We didn’t have a TV, but I think that shut down, too.pretty sure cinemas were closed.
    They need to keep the taverns open. So we can suffocate a few choirboys*

    I've just realised that we are going to get horrible videos of Republicans and Irish loons and Britophobes doing celebrations

    We must prepare to drone them

    *old French expression for boozing. I may have got it wrong
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.

    The trouble is that most of the alternative systems proposed would not make MPs more beholden to the public but instead more beholden to their parties. There are exceptions of course but they don't seem to be the ones most people in favour of electoral reform are campaigning for.
    So choose the better system! NO lists, No ATV, especially since it makes it harder to elect independents, but STV does answer most of those questions, so choose that.
    'Choose the better voting system' was probably the best part of the famous 'Choose life' speech in Trainspotting.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Presumably the plans include a point of no return for events. So they wouldn't call off a game with fans in and around the stadium.
    Pass, IIRC the Liverpool v. Newcastle match on the day of Diana's death was called off with just a couple of hours notice. I bet the Geordies loved that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/062b5655-28b3-4bf8-9629-c3eac803c3f3

    A great narrative piece in the ft (free to read) about suicide. 3x as many people die from suicide vs road accidents.

    Come on Britain. We can do better than this.

    We could light a fire, maybe sing some songs? I mean, bracing tone you adopt there, but incurable schizophrenia is incurable schizophrenia. It's a lovely idea that with more psychiatrists or whatever the problem would evaporate. It wouldn't.
    What percentage of suicides have schizophrenia ?
    10% ?
    Incurable depression is incurable depression. And so on.
  • Still cannot believe that Cox was allowed to vote in Parliament while doing his main job in the Virgin Isles.

    The contrast of the pandering to Cox compared with threats to MPs who didn't want to support Paterson must make Mark Spencer a contender for worst Chief Whip ever.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    I think the changing of that song will probably be the strangest part of the succession; it'd be like the lyrics to Bohemian Rhapsody being changed overnight.
    Philatelists would disagree probably.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Again IIRC, EVERYTHING, apart from work shut down. Radio was beyond tedious! We didn’t have a TV, but I think that shut down, too.pretty sure cinemas were closed.
    Was the king's death a shock? While it had been known he had had poor health at 56 he was still pretty young even in 1952.

    At least with HMQ she's a very old lady towards the end of a very active life, so sad, but hardly a surprise.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022
    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Again IIRC, EVERYTHING, apart from work shut down. Radio was beyond tedious! We didn’t have a TV, but I think that shut down, too.pretty sure cinemas were closed.
    They need to keep the taverns open. So we can suffocate a few choirboys*

    I've just realised that we are going to get horrible videos of Republicans and Irish loons and Britophobes doing celebrations

    We must prepare to drone them

    *old French expression for boozing. I may have got it wrong
    That and choking the Jesuit will be the only recreations available. Like lockdown
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...

    Monarchs in this country won't be able to get away with that anymore. As has been noted on here before he'd be a laughing stock if he tried to get us to call him something else after 70+years of being Charles. Lay everything else.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 4,260
    edited November 14
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    I think the changing of that song will probably be the strangest part of the succession; it'd be like the lyrics to Bohemian Rhapsody being changed overnight.
    Philatelists would disagree probably.
    Coins might the the other strange one.

    When people my age were little, you still had old shillings and two shillingses in circulation, as some strange connection to the past. Coins had a monarch on them, but not necessarily our current one.

    But for about twenty thirty years, all our coins have had Elizabeth II on them. It will be odd when that changes.

    (Edit to correct my dodgy maths. How embarrassing.)
  • Britain is a corrupt country but less so than most and a lot less so than some.

    But a bit more so that a few others.

    What is has is a tolerance of misconduct for 'people like us' and a censorious of 'people like them'.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500
    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Yes.
    But for an Evertonian that always applies.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812

    Britain is a corrupt country but less so than most and a lot less so than some.

    But a bit more so that a few others.

    What is has is a tolerance of misconduct for 'people like us' and a censorious of 'people like them'.

    I don't think that is true. Specifically I think Tory ministers have trousered bribes of over a million quid a shot in connection with PPE contracts in the past two years. Nonsense about Cox is cover for them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,006

    Cicero said:

    The problem is that in order to tackle sleaze at the root, we need to institute an electoral system that makes MPs accountable for their actions. FPTP creates safe seats for the parties and therefore for the individual MPs, but if one could vote for ones party without voting for a tainted MP who happens to be wearing the right colour rosette, then MPs would be forced to account for their personal conduct in a way that does not happen at the moment. It is very notable that the MPs with second jobs and those most involved in the current bruhaha are largely in "safe seats". It is this lack of accountability that is the root of the problem. Safe seats are as corrupt a part of FPTP as rotten boroughs were before the Great Reform act of 1832 and as subsequently ammended.

    So reform must begin with a more open electoral system. If greater competition benefits the economy, why would it not be a good thing in politics? In the House of Commons we have the ultimate closed shop with the most extreme Spanish practices and which delivers huge "majorities" often regardless of how the voters actually vote. Unless this is changed then the system will continue to deliver sub par MPs and these MPs neither offer accountability for themselves nor can they themselves hold Whitehall or Downing St to account. The fact that neither the Monarchy not the House of Lords has democratic accountability (which is a deliberate feature, not a bug) means that a PM with a solid majority has untramelled power to do what they like. Again, an open electoral system would mean that Downing St would have to account for itself.

    Any constitutional or political reform without reform to the voting system is a pointless distraction.

    The trouble is that most of the alternative systems proposed would not make MPs more beholden to the public but instead more beholden to their parties. There are exceptions of course but they don't seem to be the ones most people in favour of electoral reform are campaigning for.
    STV in multi-member constituencies would do it.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Again IIRC, EVERYTHING, apart from work shut down. Radio was beyond tedious! We didn’t have a TV, but I think that shut down, too.pretty sure cinemas were closed.
    Was the king's death a shock? While it had been known he had had poor health at 56 he was still pretty young even in 1952.

    At least with HMQ she's a very old lady towards the end of a very active life, so sad, but hardly a surprise.
    I remember that period very well and it was not a shock as was in poor health
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,366
    Afternoon all :)

    As I opined on here yesterday evening and thanks to @Fairliered for the kind word, the sleaze, in and of itself, isn't the problem. What Paterson did, though bad, wasn't a hanging offence and not even the Standards Committee thought that.

    Paterson could have accepted his punishment, served his suspension with a few words of contrition and it's unlikely any recall petition in his constituency would have got off the ground.

    Instead, claiming he hadn't the opportunity to defend himself, which seems implausible, Paterson and his "friends" decided the only way to put a stop to it would be to have Parliament overturn the Standards Committee so they trooped off to No.10 and others and in what I can only conclude was a moment of insanity, the Prime Minister and said others decided with a majority of nearly 80, they could, to quote St Trinians, "do as they damn well please" and not only would they overturn the recommendation of the Standards Committee, they would whip the Conservative Parliamentary Party to ensure that happened.

    Courageously, a dozen or so of the more thoughtful members of the Conservative Parliamentary Party eschewed the invitation to follow the rest of the sheep into the mud but the damage was done.

    It looked bad not because the sleaze was bad but because it smacked of Boris Johnson and others in the Conservative Parliamentary Party looking as though they were no longer bound by the rules and would throw away said rules in order to protect themselves. It was more than an extension of "one rule for you, another for us" and more a case of "we'll do as we like and there's nothing you can do about it".

    The electorate may have given Johnson his majority in December 2019 but that was not carte blanche to treat the checks and balances within our democracy with impunity. As we've seen before, hubris invites nemesis and we now see Owen Paterson's political career in ruins, by-elections in safe seats now looking risky and for the first time the notion of "good old Boris, he's one of us" coming under some serious pressure.

    It breaks the illusion Johnson is "different" - it turns out he's the same, perhaps they are all the same (many think that unwisely) and however contrite the Prime Minister may be from now on, the suspicion will always linger and even for the loyalists who will continue to support him, the notion must now be, as a wise man once said, in Boris Johnson's case "greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his friends for his life".
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500
    Just swum a cheeky kilometre.
    Unlike quite a few of my pre-pandemic habits, bloody hell that is summat I have missed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline

    Yes, I've read it many times, and get the point it wants to make on that, but it is a bit shoehorned in an opinion rather clumsily amongst the detailed facts.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    kle4 said:

    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...

    Monarchs in this country won't be able to get away with that anymore. As has been noted on here before he'd be a laughing stock if he tried to get us to call him something else after 70+years of being Charles. Lay everything else.
    It would look quite pointlessly posh and out of touch, but that's no guarantee against him doing it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Britain is a corrupt country but less so than most and a lot less so than some.

    But a bit more so that a few others.

    What is has is a tolerance of misconduct for 'people like us' and a censorious of 'people like them'.

    I don't think that is true. Specifically I think Tory ministers have trousered bribes of over a million quid a shot in connection with PPE contracts in the past two years. Nonsense about Cox is cover for them.
    Do you have details as to which ministers and what amounts ?

    Though that would fit in with suggestions that people in Westminster would be happy to switch PPE purchases away from factories somewhere up the M1 back to dubious places in Asia and to be arranged by sleazy middle men.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    edited November 14
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    Yes, I've dreamed of her too. She's on the coins and stamps, she is everywhere, she is part of the national DNA, she is a constellation of meaning, emotion, memory.

    A third is a vast underestimate for British people. But Masters was writing in 1972, and the Queen has grown mightily in stature and significance in the 50 years (!!) since then

    I have French friends that will cry when she dies
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,462

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    "The prime minister will be woken, if she is not already awake ..."

    Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future ...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
    In which case you probably have and forgotten about it
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I can't recall having done so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    "The prime minister will be woken, if she is not already awake ..."

    Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future ...
    Indeed. It's unlikely Carrie will ever get any sleep with her husband around.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
    In which case you probably have and forgotten about it
    Yes, but that would still bring the stat of how many have done so (or recollected doing so) down to around that 1/3 level of thereabouts.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500
    Pay me more than £82k or I'll be forced to do a bit of corruption on the side.
    That instinctively seemed entirely reasonable to this bunch of shysters.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,829

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Who'd be on the motorway going to Anfield?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    The closest comparison to the Queen Dying - in other countries - was the death of King Bumibhol in Thailand in 2016, after a 66 year long reign

    He was revered, even adored. Also respected. He saw the country through near civil war and coups aplenty, and was always dignified in a quiet, shy way. Flawless in execution of the job. The similarities with QE2 are quite striking.

    Thais wore black for about a year. Of course we won't do that but there will be real grief.

    Luckily for us we have the dutiful if slightly dreary Charles to take over. He will do OK. The Thais got their version of Prince Andrew. Actually even worse than Andrew

    "Thailand threatens to prosecute Facebook for running a video of the country's heavily tattooed king walking through a shopping mall in a tiny yellow crop-top"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imm9adAf5g0&t=7s
  • MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Who'd be on the motorway going to Anfield?
    Arsenal fans.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited November 14
    Leon said:

    The closest comparison to the Queen Dying - in other countries - was the death of King Bumibhol in Thailand in 2016, after a 66 year long reign

    He was revered, even adored. Also respected. He saw the country through near civil war and coups aplenty, and was always dignified in a quiet, shy way. Flawless in execution of the job. The similarities with QE2 are quite striking.

    Thais wore black for about a year. Of course we won't do that but there will be real grief.

    Luckily for us we have the dutiful if slightly dreary Charles to take over. He will do OK. The Thais got their version of Prince Andrew. Actually even worse than Andrew

    "Thailand threatens to prosecute Facebook for running a video of the country's heavily tattooed king walking through a shopping mall in a tiny yellow crop-top"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imm9adAf5g0&t=7s

    70 years. I've suggested before the Queen loves a good record I bet, she'll want to make it to 27 May 2024 to beat Louis XIV.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Who'd be on the motorway going to Anfield?
    Arsenal fans.
    The Liverpool fans will be on planes from Scandinavia.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    dixiedean said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    I don't like speculating on this, but as this may effect me, I think I have a right to.

    Say an announcement was made next Saturday at noon. And I'm on the motorway going to Anfield. Should I turn around and go home?
    Probably.
    Who'd be on the motorway going to Anfield?
    Arsenal fans.
    The Liverpool fans will be on planes from Scandinavia.
    Whenever I go up to Anfield or Old Trafford, the service stations are always full of Liverpool and United fans.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,641
    I am hoping the Queen holds on, if only because the bathos of starting with Churchill and ending with Boris is too bathetic a metaphor.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    It seems I may have chosen my new blubbing profile pic with accidental foresight.
  • dixiedean said:

    Pay me more than £82k or I'll be forced to do a bit of corruption on the side.
    That instinctively seemed entirely reasonable to this bunch of shysters.

    The one thing that makes me very uneasy is that the vast majority are decent hard working constituency mps, but they all end up being tainted by the actions of a few malign individuals
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,069
    dixiedean said:

    Pay me more than £82k or I'll be forced to do a bit of corruption on the side.
    That instinctively seemed entirely reasonable to this bunch of shysters.

    I suspect it is those MPs who do not have outside earnings who argue the most for a higher salary for MPs.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812

    IshmaelZ said:

    Britain is a corrupt country but less so than most and a lot less so than some.

    But a bit more so that a few others.

    What is has is a tolerance of misconduct for 'people like us' and a censorious of 'people like them'.

    I don't think that is true. Specifically I think Tory ministers have trousered bribes of over a million quid a shot in connection with PPE contracts in the past two years. Nonsense about Cox is cover for them.
    Do you have details as to which ministers and what amounts ?

    Though that would fit in with suggestions that people in Westminster would be happy to switch PPE purchases away from factories somewhere up the M1 back to dubious places in Asia and to be arranged by sleazy middle men.
    I have ideas which I am not sharing, for obvious reasons.
  • Apropos of nothing really except the fact my daughter has just written an article about time. But weird fact of the day:

    If Einstein was right in his theory of General relativity then the centre of the Earth is two and a half years younger than the surface.

    Not the biggest "if" ever posted on pb.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
    I seem to recall that Kingsley Amis and/or Philip Larkin admitted to dreaming about the Queen..er..erotically. In all their much younger and extant years of course.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,812
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
    In which case you probably have and forgotten about it
    Yes, but that would still bring the stat of how many have done so (or recollected doing so) down to around that 1/3 level of thereabouts.
    There is no basis for your parenthesis. For all we know he had data showing that 1 in 6 remember dreaming about HMQ and extrapolated that as many again had not remembered. NB that even people who do remember dreams remember a very small fraction of them
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    OK, on to betting, which major politicians will be seen crying, at some point, during the announcements, the mourning, the funeral?

    My bet

    Boris
    All of the Ulster Unionists
    Starmer will try and fake it
    Ruth Davidson
    Priti Patel
    Someone from Plaid Cymru, to their own surprise


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    Looks like Aus will be chasing about a par score, which is annoying.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Leon said:

    The closest comparison to the Queen Dying - in other countries - was the death of King Bumibhol in Thailand in 2016, after a 66 year long reign

    He was revered, even adored. Also respected. He saw the country through near civil war and coups aplenty, and was always dignified in a quiet, shy way. Flawless in execution of the job. The similarities with QE2 are quite striking.

    Thais wore black for about a year. Of course we won't do that but there will be real grief.

    Luckily for us we have the dutiful if slightly dreary Charles to take over. He will do OK. The Thais got their version of Prince Andrew. Actually even worse than Andrew

    "Thailand threatens to prosecute Facebook for running a video of the country's heavily tattooed king walking through a shopping mall in a tiny yellow crop-top"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imm9adAf5g0&t=7s

    'a video of the country's heavily tattooed king walking through a shopping mall in a tiny yellow crop-top'

    Dunno, grief can do funny things to folk.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 905
    kle4 said:

    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...

    Monarchs in this country won't be able to get away with that anymore. As has been noted on here before he'd be a laughing stock if he tried to get us to call him something else after 70+years of being Charles. Lay everything else.
    William might pick a different name when he gets the gig though - if the British state survives that long intact.

    If he sticks with his own name he'll be known as King William V, but he'll only be the fourth William to be king in Scotland. Cue a tremendous amount of aggrieved wailing.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,732
    edited November 14
    For those looking to bet on the US mid-terms, there is a very good analytical piece on politico.com at the moment:

    "Largely overlooked amid the party’s dismal suburban results in Virginia and New Jersey last week, Republicans regained ground in the vote-rich Philly suburbs after years of losses under Trump. The GOP flipped multiple row offices in populous Bucks County, carried a state Supreme Court race there, and even came close to winning seats on the county council in Delaware County, where Biden romped by nearly 30 points in 2020.

    ...

    "From April to October, Biden’s approval rating fell 14 points among suburban voters in Pennsylvania, according to surveys by Morning Consult. Biden’s favorability saw similar drops in the swing states of Michigan, Wisconsin, Georgia, North Carolina and Florida.

    "Biden’s suburban fade is no small matter. The big margins produced by the suburban Philadelphia counties of Montgomery, Bucks, Delaware, and Chester — where Biden outperformed Hillary Clinton — allowed him to win the state back from Trump in 2020.

    "The most recent election results, however, suggested the GOP is on much favorable footing in these areas now that Trump is out of office. From Loudoun County, Va., to Bucks County, Pa., suburban voters appeared to reject the idea that every Republican candidate is a Trump foot soldier. Just as Virginia Democrats sought to paint Youngkin as a Trump acolyte, Pennsylvania Democrats sought to tie local Republican candidates to the former GOP president — and there were few signs that it worked." [my bold]

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/14/gop-trump-pennsylvania-suburbs-521655
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    O/T but I see ABC/Washington Post have Bidenon 38%, and the Republicans 10% ahead on the generic vote. If that were repeated in 2022, they'd have a majority of about 100 in the House, and 54/55 Senate seats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Sean_F said:

    It's strange how governments make these unforced errors. It ought to have been blindingly obvious that trying to overturn the procedures on behalf of Owen Paterson would turn out far worse (even for Paterson) than his just taking his punishment.

    If there's an explanation beyond arrogance of the large majority I'd love to hear it.

    They convinced themselves that because they had the numbers to do it with a bullshit justification, that people would believe it. As it is, it was immediately apparent that even those who did vote for it didn't buy the explanation (and one of the few non ministers to talk about it admitted it was about what was felled 'owed' to Paterson).
  • pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...

    Monarchs in this country won't be able to get away with that anymore. As has been noted on here before he'd be a laughing stock if he tried to get us to call him something else after 70+years of being Charles. Lay everything else.
    William might pick a different name when he gets the gig though - if the British state survives that long intact.

    If he sticks with his own name he'll be known as King William V, but he'll only be the fourth William to be king in Scotland. Cue a tremendous amount of aggrieved wailing.
    He might also wish to avoid King Billy in Northern Ireland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, I just saw Catherine at the Cenotaph. And then Charles....


    A week or two?

    Please God no!

    I've got a holiday booked in London for the end of the month.
    It is vulgar and distasteful to speculate, but let's face it we are going to speculate. Charles had the same face, today, that he wore when he went to visit the DoE a few days before the old man conked out. I suspect we are very close (I hope I am wrong, ofc, not just for her sake but because it is going to be an emotional hernia for the country)

    So few of us can remember what it is like when a monarch passes.

    eg Do we all immediately switch to "God Save the King"? Or do we wait until Chuck is crowned, or what?
    Chas becomes King the second her majesty passes.

    It is automatic.

    The crowning bit is largely irrelevant. Although certain oaths need to be said in order to cement it regarding upholding church of england iirc.
    So, theoretically, the time of the England South Africa match next weekend, the players could all be belting out "God Save the King"

    The Queen is Dead, Long Live the King

    I kind of like the instant automaticity of it. But I am a monarchist
    IIRC from the London Bridge plans that all major sporting events get postponed up until after the funeral.

    The Rozzers will be needed elsewhere.
    Presumably the funeral plans are all fairly cemented in place. Should be some good music

    Meghan can't skip this one. Awks
    Have a read of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge
    That's a great article, if a bit too fixated on national decline


    This is an insightful passage

    "In 1972, the writer Brian Masters estimated that around a third of us have dreamed about the Queen – she stands for authority and our mothers. People who are not expecting to cry will cry."

    Reckon that's absolutely bang on. The Queen is Mummy. She has always been there, a fixed point in the British heavens, even hardened Republicans will be shaken, perhaps to the point of tears
    A third? Bloody hell, even i have dreamed about the Queen. I'd genuinely put it at the mid 90 %s for people born here.
    I have never dreamed about the Queen, I don't find it hard to believe - I very very rarely remember the details of any dream, maybe 1-2 times per year if that.
    I seem to recall that Kingsley Amis and/or Philip Larkin admitted to dreaming about the Queen..er..erotically. In all their much younger and extant years of course.
    More may have done so through the medium of Claire Foy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    Are there any markets on Charles' regnal name?

    George VII sounds better than Charles III.....

    And although he's not limited to his given names there's a Philip and an Arthur in there too...

    Monarchs in this country won't be able to get away with that anymore. As has been noted on here before he'd be a laughing stock if he tried to get us to call him something else after 70+years of being Charles. Lay everything else.
    William might pick a different name when he gets the gig though - if the British state survives that long intact.

    If he sticks with his own name he'll be known as King William V, but he'll only be the fourth William to be king in Scotland. Cue a tremendous amount of aggrieved wailing.
    But we've already had Elizabeth II and they've not had the first. He could have resolved this by calling his eldest son David, then he would have reigned as David III of the UK, without England having had one.
  • kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The closest comparison to the Queen Dying - in other countries - was the death of King Bumibhol in Thailand in 2016, after a 66 year long reign

    He was revered, even adored. Also respected. He saw the country through near civil war and coups aplenty, and was always dignified in a quiet, shy way. Flawless in execution of the job. The similarities with QE2 are quite striking.

    Thais wore black for about a year. Of course we won't do that but there will be real grief.

    Luckily for us we have the dutiful if slightly dreary Charles to take over. He will do OK. The Thais got their version of Prince Andrew. Actually even worse than Andrew

    "Thailand threatens to prosecute Facebook for running a video of the country's heavily tattooed king walking through a shopping mall in a tiny yellow crop-top"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imm9adAf5g0&t=7s

    70 years. I've suggested before the Queen loves a good record I bet, she'll want to make it to 27 May 2024 to beat Louis XIV.
    Reckon that HM's real personal longevity benchmark, is fact that her mother lived to be 101.

    If she makes it that far - God willing - then methinks she will think she's really achieved something, that she - and her mum - can be proud of.
This discussion has been closed.