Anticipatory whataboutery, what a load of old cock.
Its fair to point out that whilst Labour are screaming about corruption,their own hands might not be entirely clean... they wont do anything about it of course for that very reason.. its just volume.
What does Labour's reaction to anything have to do with the price of fish ?
Surely we should be concerned about grift and corruption in Gov't on its own merits.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
That's a non-sequitur. It's quite possible for 97% of people to recognise that there are less stressful jobs than being an MP, with no particular implications for MPs' salaries.
Not really.
A lot of people in this country, earning considerably less than an MP, for example are running their own small business they have their life's savings invested into. If that fails then they may have nothing. Do you consider that less stressful than being an MP?
That's another non-sequitur. Your reply was to diswagree with "anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money." You are now saying that a lot of people have more stressful jobs. Sure. Nonetheless, it is factually true that there are less stressful ways to earn money than being an MP.
To earn the same amount of money?
Or are you counting earning £10 per hour as the same as earning £80k per year?
Not sure how Johnson can kick an MP out of Parliament even if he wanted to?
And, to be fair, while Roberts is apparently a member of the Conservative party, he isn't a member of the Conservative Parliamentary Group. Not sure whether Claudia Webbe is still a member of the Labour Party, but she's likewise not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
41 hours a month, £400k a year. £813 an hour (less 13.5% chambers’ fees)
Harry Cole deleted his Tweet.
You wouldn't catch me bothering to get out of bed for a mere £813 an hour (especially if chambers' fees are knocked off that).
Me neither!
Funny to watch the Twitterati unquestionably pick up on the nearly £10k an hour figure though, which is ridiculously and unfeasably high, even for a top QC.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
There are, I suspect, a few Express and Telegraph journalists working on the matter as we discuss! Not quite as sure about the Mail these days.
Anticipatory whataboutery, what a load of old cock.
Its fair to point out that whilst Labour are screaming about corruption,their own hands might not be entirely clean... they wont do anything about it of course for that very reason.. its just volume.
What does Labour's reaction to anything have to do with the price of fish ?
Surely we should be concerned about grift and corruption in Gov't on its own merits.
Indeed we should and as my comment made clear. Corruption needs stopping whoever is involved.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
Didn't miss the point at all and if that happens then good. All corruption should be rooted out. I don't think the Tories would be holding back and I wouldn't want them to.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
Is that the reason for cutting funding to the justice system? Why do we need courts and judges and sentencing if we should "judge not?" "Defund the courts," I guess.
Interesting argument; might not go down too well with the Tory faithful.
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
And yet why isn't everybody in the country working in IT in London then?
What makes you think a backbench MP would be good enough to be such an IT worker in London?
What makes you think that an IT worker in London is the contemporary of a backbench MP? Why aren't the other 97% of the country that earn less than MPs their contemporaries?
I've met a few MPs - I would assess them, on average, as senior middle management grade, in general, with some high flyers.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
Didn't miss the point at all and if that happens then good. All corruption should be rooted out. I don't think the Tories would be holding back and I wouldn't want them to.
You are missing the point. If there is Tory corruption, then it's obviously Labour's fault, because some time ago they accepted a donation from Bernie Ecclestone. They started it.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
And don't forget our lord Marcus Rashford who earnt £250,000 this week for playing 15 minutes of football
You really do hate success don't you?
What do you suggest Rashford does? He already contributes far more to society than nearly anyone else I can think of.
You do come over as an envious person.
Another target KJH...
Yep. The two of you are unique (if that is not an oxymoron) to PB in that you are both sad, bitter angry, envious posters. It is sad and I feel sorry for both of you. Neither of you ever post anything positive. Neither of you post with any humour. Both of you rarely engage in debate, but just post rude comments about people or parties. You just slag off people.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
There are, I suspect, a few Express and Telegraph journalists working on the matter as we discuss! Not quite as sure about the Mail these days.
I doubt there are that many reporters to spare, especially on the Express. Enough to ask CCHQ if they've got anything on Labour but not enough to run a thorough investigation of their own.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
I guess we can all look forward to the Daily Mail dredging up its story about the father (who died 27 years ago) of the Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. That was a high point in British journalism.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
Didn't miss the point at all and if that happens then good. All corruption should be rooted out. I don't think the Tories would be holding back and I wouldn't want them to.
You are missing the point. If there is Tory corruption, then it's obviously Labour's fault, because some time ago they accepted a donation from Bernie Ecclestone. They started it.
Have I got that right?
I'm not sure Squareroot2 will have got the sarcasm, but I enjoyed that.
Not sure how Johnson can kick an MP out of Parliament even if he wanted to?
Directly he can't. But indirectly? Expel him from the party (as opposed to welcoming him back with open arms) and publicly call for him to quit. As Labour have done both of these with Webbe and with others before her they do have a best practice track record here.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
And don't forget our lord Marcus Rashford who earnt £250,000 this week for playing 15 minutes of football
You really do hate success don't you?
What do you suggest Rashford does? He already contributes far more to society than nearly anyone else I can think of.
You do come over as an envious person.
Another target KJH...
Yep. The two of you are unique (if that is not an oxymoron) to PB in that you are both sad, bitter angry, envious posters. It is sad and I feel sorry for both of you. Neither of you ever post anything positive. Neither of you post with any humour. Both of you rarely engage in debate, but just post rude comments about people or parties. You just slag off people.
If you don't like my comments as I said before scroll past them. T. As for me I will not respond to anything you post in future.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
And don't forget our lord Marcus Rashford who earnt £250,000 this week for playing 15 minutes of football
You really do hate success don't you?
What do you suggest Rashford does? He already contributes far more to society than nearly anyone else I can think of.
You do come over as an envious person.
Another target KJH...
Yep. The two of you are unique (if that is not an oxymoron) to PB in that you are both sad, bitter angry, envious posters. It is sad and I feel sorry for both of you. Neither of you ever post anything positive. Neither of you post with any humour. Both of you rarely engage in debate, but just post rude comments about people or parties. You just slag off people.
If you don't like my comments as I said before scroll past them. T. As for me I will not respond to anything you post in future.
Nope won't. I'm not letting you get away with the bile you post without responding. Please feel free to ignore, that is your right.
The problem is that being an MP is expensive (unless you are fortunate enough to be the MP for Westminster). Your constituents are - at the very least - a drive away, and could be a flight or long train journey away.
Unless you are in London, you will need two homes, and you will need to travel between them. And you probably need to staff an office.
We have attempted to square this circle by paying MPs a little, but allowing them to claim a lot of expenses. And inevitably this means there are lots of edge cases about what is acceptable behaviour.
You are in Westminster for a HoC vote, and you miss the last train to your constituency in Oxford. Is it acceptable to get a taxi (cost £250) home and to expense it?
I can think of hundreds of little things are at the discretion of MPs, and which may - or may not - be acceptable.
The answer is to have an allowance. No more fiddling expenses.
So the answer is, in other words, to give the MP a huge tax-free sum of public money, for which they are utterly unaccountable?
It’s also what the EU does.
The answer is to give MPs the salary, benefits and allowances that top journalists - say, Peston - get. That way the eejits in the media cannot complain. Or at least, they'd be even more hypocritical to complain ...
I find it quite amazing how, over the course of three or four decades, defence from journalists towards politicians has been replaced by deference by politicians towards journalists.
For example, I would have had every minister asked to interview with Kay Burley or Beth Rigby in recent months, to start with a snide remark about their thinking that rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Doesn’t Peston get something silly like half a million? No way that’s a reasonable salary, and MPs should keep pointing that out too.
Peston works for a private company. They can pay whatever they want to
Yep. Thats the difference between ITV and BBC - my TV licence money goes to BBC journalists even if I don't ever watch BBC (I do, and regard it as value, but would still change the system).
Huw Edwards – £425,000-£429,000 Fiona Bruce – £405,000-£409,999 Andrew Marr – £335,000-£339,999 Emily Maitlis – £325,000-£329,999 George Alagiah – £325,000-£329,999 Jeremy Vine – £295,000-£299,999 Sophie Raworth – £280,000-£284,999 Mishal Husain – £275,000-£279,999 Nick Robinson – £270,000-£274,999 Evan Davis – £270,000-£274,999 Laura Kuenssberg – £260,000-£264,999 Martha Kearney – £250,000-£254,999 Naga Munchetty – £255,000-£259,999 Katya Adler – £220,000-£224,999 Kirsty Wark – £210,000-£214,999
…and probably a few more I missed. All way more than the PM, let alone a lowly MP.
And don't forget our lord Marcus Rashford who earnt £250,000 this week for playing 15 minutes of football
You really do hate success don't you?
What do you suggest Rashford does? He already contributes far more to society than nearly anyone else I can think of.
You do come over as an envious person.
Another target KJH...
Yep. The two of you are unique (if that is not an oxymoron) to PB in that you are both sad, bitter angry, envious posters. It is sad and I feel sorry for both of you. Neither of you ever post anything positive. Neither of you post with any humour. Both of you rarely engage in debate, but just post rude comments about people or parties. You just slag off people.
If you don't like my comments as I said before scroll past them. T. As for me I will not respond to anything you post in future.
No, lets not scroll past them, they are interesting.
You apparently support corruption - your money being handed to Tory shills - because it is the party you support doing it. Whilst I know that people do donate cash to parties doing it in this indirect way is surely inefficient if nothing else.
Whatever happened to right and wrong? You quoted the bible whilst pointing at Labour. OK, so we see that splinter. Now what about that fuckoff great beam sticking out of Johnson's eye?
Interesting that the Reform UK candidate in North Shropshire is going with the line that Owen Paterson is a "man of integrity"! Not the obvious strategy for the by-election...
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
I guess we can all look forward to the Daily Mail dredging up its story about the father (who died 27 years ago) of the Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. That was a high point in British journalism.
Interesting that the Reform UK candidate in North Shropshire is going with the line that Owen Paterson is a "man of integrity"! Not the obvious strategy for the by-election...
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
And yet why isn't everybody in the country working in IT in London then?
What makes you think a backbench MP would be good enough to be such an IT worker in London?
What makes you think that an IT worker in London is the contemporary of a backbench MP? Why aren't the other 97% of the country that earn less than MPs their contemporaries?
I've met a few MPs - I would assess them, on average, as senior middle management grade, in general, with some high flyers.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
Not sure how Johnson can kick an MP out of Parliament even if he wanted to?
And, to be fair, while Roberts is apparently a member of the Conservative party, he isn't a member of the Conservative Parliamentary Group. Not sure whether Claudia Webbe is still a member of the Labour Party, but she's likewise not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Webbe was expelled from the Labour Party the day she was convicted, I believe. Labour have called on her to resign. If there is a recall petition, they've said they'll campaign for a recall. One can ask why did they pick her as a candidate in the first place, but they've taken a clear line in response to what has happened.
Interesting that the Reform UK candidate in North Shropshire is going with the line that Owen Paterson is a "man of integrity"! Not the obvious strategy for the by-election...
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
Not sure how Johnson can kick an MP out of Parliament even if he wanted to?
And, to be fair, while Roberts is apparently a member of the Conservative party, he isn't a member of the Conservative Parliamentary Group. Not sure whether Claudia Webbe is still a member of the Labour Party, but she's likewise not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Webbe was expelled from the Labour Party the day she was convicted, I believe. Labour have called on her to resign. If there is a recall petition, they've said they'll campaign for a recall. One can ask why did they pick her as a candidate in the first place, but they've taken a clear line in response to what has happened.
Why Webbe? 1. A close colleague of Jezbollah 2. Imposed on the CLP to prove the evil of Blairites imposing people on CLPs
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
Didn't miss the point at all and if that happens then good. All corruption should be rooted out. I don't think the Tories would be holding back and I wouldn't want them to.
You are missing the point. If there is Tory corruption, then it's obviously Labour's fault, because some time ago they accepted a donation from Bernie Ecclestone. They started it.
Have I got that right?
It's fascinating to see these "generational" things play out.
For a very long time, every little thing was down to "Thatcher" - a decade or more after she lost power. Before that, she pointed to the failings of what was both Wilson & (to control her wets) Heath, though under the generic label "Labour" - it wasn't so personalised then. We are now in the dying days of everything being "Blair/Brown"'s fault (a decade or so since they were out of power); once Johnson et al pass into history, it will be another decade at least before everything ceases to be Boris's fault. May and Cameron will escape this blame game, I suspect, as they lack star quality.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
You're against Tory corruption? How are we supposed to know that when you are silent on the subject and instead try and deflect onto Labour.
Again, the party you support is doling out peerages and PPE contracts to friends and patrons. Your Tevalyan-esque attempts at deflection away from that don't suggest condemnation.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
Point taken. Although my criticism is exactly the lack of joy in any of SquareSum's post.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
I guess we can all look forward to the Daily Mail dredging up its story about the father (who died 27 years ago) of the Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. That was a high point in British journalism.
That wasn't about corruption though, was it.
No, it was the thing that popped into my head when I thought how desperate conservatives can sometimes be to make Labour seem like Bad News. We might be about to enter a period where conservative like sqrt2 try to pin anything at all on Labour. I'm not overjoyed at the prospect, and I even hope for a little REAL scandal so that the spectacle isn't quite as undignified.
SKS could make hay. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. Labour needs to attack wider government corruption than just Owen Paterson, who will have gone anyway.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
— Matthew 7:1–5 KJV
The Sermon on the Whataboutery? Is that the new Tory spin line or are you urging Boris to sack the Home and Justice Secretaries?
Read what it says on the tin. All I am saying is that when it comes to corruption Labour had better be sure its hands are and have been clean.
There is corruption in all Parties, always has been, always will be.
As you say there is corruption in all parties as there is in all life. That is no excuse for not rooting it out. So yes Labour and LDs and SNP, etc will all have their scandals, but are you saying that we should give a free ride to what is happening because Labour have had issues in the past and will probably do so in the future.
Again if you apply your logic to its ridiculous conclusion (you had a similar example the other day) when a bank robber is in court do you think a defence of 'others have done it' is one that should get him off?
Again there is this appalling cynicism on your part.
Just out of interest if this was a Labour scandal (as I'm sure there will be) would you be criticizing the Tories for attacking Labour? I suspect not.
Morning KJH. You are missing the point deliberately. I will try and put it another way. If Labour start shouting about corruption in the Govt, they should not be too surprised if they find a shower of shit coming their way. If there is corruption it needs rooting out wherever its happening. I expect a few stories about Labour corruption to start surfacing....or being revisited.
Didn't miss the point at all and if that happens then good. All corruption should be rooted out. I don't think the Tories would be holding back and I wouldn't want them to.
You are missing the point. If there is Tory corruption, then it's obviously Labour's fault, because some time ago they accepted a donation from Bernie Ecclestone. They started it.
Have I got that right?
It's fascinating to see these "generational" things play out.
For a very long time, every little thing was down to "Thatcher" - a decade or more after she lost power. Before that, she pointed to the failings of what was both Wilson & (to control her wets) Heath, though under the generic label "Labour" - it wasn't so personalised then. We are now in the dying days of everything being "Blair/Brown"'s fault (a decade or so since they were out of power); once Johnson et al pass into history, it will be another decade at least before everything ceases to be Boris's fault. May and Cameron will escape this blame game, I suspect, as they lack star quality.
No no no. Don't let St Theresa off the hook. It doesn't matter that her response to the "naughtiest thing you have ever done" was so funny because it was probably true. He crimes against dancing and wheat fields are definitely going to be the source of society's problems in 2027. Just you wait and see.
Over the weekend, Belgium and Netherlands overtook us for cases/population. Based on the direction of travel it looks like Denmark, Germany and Poland will do so also in the next week or so. Southern European countries (e.g. Spain, Italy, Portugal) are still fairly low but look to be at the start of a potential exponential increase. Have we done ourselves a favour by having our peak over late Summer and early Autumn?
Not sure how Johnson can kick an MP out of Parliament even if he wanted to?
And, to be fair, while Roberts is apparently a member of the Conservative party, he isn't a member of the Conservative Parliamentary Group. Not sure whether Claudia Webbe is still a member of the Labour Party, but she's likewise not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Webbe was expelled from the Labour Party the day she was convicted, I believe. Labour have called on her to resign. If there is a recall petition, they've said they'll campaign for a recall. One can ask why did they pick her as a candidate in the first place, but they've taken a clear line in response to what has happened.
Why Webbe? 1. A close colleague of Jezbollah 2. Imposed on the CLP to prove the evil of Blairites imposing people on CLPs
In a seat previously held by Keith Vaz - who was a lot of things but I don't think anyone could really call him a Blairite.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
Point taken. Although my criticism is exactly the lack of joy in any of SquareSum's post.
They are a positive ray of sunshine compared to @malcolmg .
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
And yet why isn't everybody in the country working in IT in London then?
What makes you think a backbench MP would be good enough to be such an IT worker in London?
What makes you think that an IT worker in London is the contemporary of a backbench MP? Why aren't the other 97% of the country that earn less than MPs their contemporaries?
I've met a few MPs - I would assess them, on average, as senior middle management grade, in general, with some high flyers.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
If you are highly skilled and educated and your prime motivation is making money, you will go into investment banking or corporate and commercial law or work for one of the Big Tech firms not into politics and government.
Being an MP should not be solely about making money but about public service too, their current wage is about right ie clearly in the top 10% of earners but not enough to make them rich.
Though as I said last night I would raise the pay of the PM and Cabinet a bit to ensure they are clearly in the top 1% of earners given their responsibilities (albeit the PM and Chancellor and Foreign Secretary also get the use of a country house too as well as their residence in London).
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
....at least not without waiting until the allotted time, or @SeanT hour, as we know it.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
On the subject of MPs' pay. We could increase it to £500,000 a year, and we'd end up with the same people.
Yes. The one general lesson I can share from my time managing expenses is that, not always but most often, the more someone is paid to begin with, the more greedy they are for more.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
And yet why isn't everybody in the country working in IT in London then?
What makes you think a backbench MP would be good enough to be such an IT worker in London?
What makes you think that an IT worker in London is the contemporary of a backbench MP? Why aren't the other 97% of the country that earn less than MPs their contemporaries?
I've met a few MPs - I would assess them, on average, as senior middle management grade, in general, with some high flyers.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
What on earth is IT/Tech design?
From examining the work of the chap in question - Design & Technology (as taught in schools) turned into a degree. 3D printing, Raspberry Pi's, Python etc
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
Point taken. Although my criticism is exactly the lack of joy in any of SquareSum's post.
They are a positive ray of sunshine compared to @malcolmg .
Funnily enough I discussed that with @malcolmg yesterday. In my view there is a big difference and one I highlighted in my responses to @squareroot2 and that is humour. I don't think anyone can claim that Malcolm hasn't raised a smile on all our faces at sometime. He does it with panache.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
I see the usual suspects are about. I never said corruption shouldn't be dealt with , in facted I posted that it should. Why anyone should get so aerated by pointing out that the accusers hands might not be clean hands is a mystery.
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
The usual suspects = Most of the people who post here.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
I think most people who post here aren’t paying much attention to this conversation. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
Point of order. It is me who is being rounded on.. i am just defending myself, now ignoring the usual suspects. We are all entitled to our opinions .
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
It's the greens up 5. Cop26 effect
Quite a respectable bump. Has that been seen in the other pollsters? I vaguely recall some commentary from n here regarding a lack of movement for the Greens.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
This is the moment of danger for the Conservatives. It's one thing people being put off by Tory sleaze etc, but if people start to perceive that OTHER PEOPLE are abandoning them, then it can snowball.
There's a chance that you could see Labour on 40% before November is out.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
I'm reasonably wound up this morning so if any LD want an argument I'm up for it just to be provocative and prove you wrong.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
We haven't had an 'eyeball' for quite some time. Back in the day someone called SeanT declined to attend in case he felt obliged to thump someone called tim, so actual fisticuffs were always a possibility.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs
“ The cost of lithium battery cells is rising for the first time after years of decline, with strained lithium supplies adding to rising prices of other cell materials.
“Chinese battery producers are said to be writing to customers looking to renegotiate contracts, including moving away from fixed pricing structures. “
…
“ Benchmark says prices for battery grade lithium carbonate in China have climbed more than 300pc since October 2020, hitting $28,765 in October. Prices for nickel and cobalt, also key battery ingredients, have also climbed, with Benchmark’s cathode price index up by 62.4pc over the year.
“It believes the lithium supply shortages are set to deepen next year and continue through the mid-2020s. “
On the subject of MPs' pay. We could increase it to £500,000 a year, and we'd end up with the same people.
Yes. The one general lesson I can share from my time managing expenses is that, not always but most often, the more someone is paid to begin with, the more greedy they are for more.
There is a remarkably strong case for not paying MPs at all. As, of course, has been the case in most of parliament's history.
Paying them but not in a way which reflects the gravity of supreme power and responsibility for the UK may be the worst way of all.
Instead they could be seen as supreme part time trustees of the UK, unpaid, and payment go to the full timers who do the work.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
Over the weekend, Belgium and Netherlands overtook us for cases/population. Based on the direction of travel it looks like Denmark, Germany and Poland will do so also in the next week or so. Southern European countries (e.g. Spain, Italy, Portugal) are still fairly low but look to be at the start of a potential exponential increase. Have we done ourselves a favour by having our peak over late Summer and early Autumn?
My experience in Andalucia is the Spanish are still doing most things outdoors, restaurants were often empty indoors with everyone on the patio. (Indeed that may have increased, in October it is cool enough to eat outdoors in Seville, not sure about earlier in the year). So it may be a while before they start winter behaviour.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
Over the weekend, Belgium and Netherlands overtook us for cases/population. Based on the direction of travel it looks like Denmark, Germany and Poland will do so also in the next week or so. Southern European countries (e.g. Spain, Italy, Portugal) are still fairly low but look to be at the start of a potential exponential increase. Have we done ourselves a favour by having our peak over late Summer and early Autumn?
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
I'm reasonably wound up this morning so if any LD want an argument I'm up for it just to be provocative and prove you wrong.
I don't count myself as a LD but I did vote for them in the last 2 Westminster elections. And I might be switching to SNP next time. That ought to be enough to provoke a little yellow-on-yellow?
A few days ago I said I was going to listen some more to Chris Bryant.
He was on the radio this morning re: the current imbroglio.
I was impressed.
Yes, he's excellent and has the issues around the Paterson affair completely nailed. Worth watching out for in today's HoC debate; he'll give the government a hard time.
A few days ago I said I was going to listen some more to Chris Bryant.
He was on the radio this morning re: the current imbroglio.
I was impressed.
Chris Bryant's book, The Glamour Boys, about 1930s MPs, mainly gay, mainly Conservative, who supported Churchill in his opposition to Hitler and the government's policy of appeasement, is worth a read, though I do wish Bryant were a better writer.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
Thank you for proving my point!
Remember I spent 13 years campaigning and voting for the Conservatives in opposition, eventually the cycle will turn again but I will still be voting for and backing the blues.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
It's the greens up 5. Cop26 effect
Quite a respectable bump. Has that been seen in the other pollsters? I vaguely recall some commentary from n here regarding a lack of movement for the Greens.
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
It's the greens up 5. Cop26 effect
Quite a respectable bump. Has that been seen in the other pollsters? I vaguely recall some commentary from n here regarding a lack of movement for the Greens.
IPSOS MORI too so not some fly by night newish polling company. Just one poll but continues a general trend, and probably worthy of a new header.
But another example of people being annoyed with the Tories, but not flocking to Labour.
The left of centre vote is strikingly high though now. Even if you exclude the Lib Dems it is implied at over 50%.
Only if you include Scotland and the SNP voteshare, minus Scotland the Tories would likely still have a majority in England and Wales even on the new Ipsos Mori (plus with the DUP in England and Wales and NI).
Though yes it does suggest Starmer would become PM if he could get SNP confidence and supply
This is the moment of danger for the Conservatives. It's one thing people being put off by Tory sleaze etc, but if people start to perceive that OTHER PEOPLE are abandoning them, then it can snowball.
There's a chance that you could see Labour on 40% before November is out.
Labour need to start announcing their own policies, on this and other topics. The time has come. Not buried in some lengthy dissertation or vague hand waving about where we'd like to be, but actual policies that will be immediately popular and push topical buttons. They can work out how actually to implement them later - would be a nice problem to have.
- "Labour's 5 point plan to tackle political corruption and ensure the independence of the parliamentary standards bodies" - Labour's 3 step strategy for "making Brexit work" (can be as full of motherhood and apple pie, even of cakeism, as the leave campaign): - Labour's clean water pledge: "if you elect us we'll force the water companies to release nothing but pure mountain spring water, passed through activated charcoal filters into our beloved watercourses" - Labour's net zero promise: "we'll deliver clean green power to all while capping home energy bills"
"How will you pay for all this?" "Easy, we'll restructure our wasteful and corrupt test and trace system and use the billions saved on that to fund free unicorns for all".
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
Headline: "Sleaze-hit Boris Johnson loses opinion poll lead"
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
It's the greens up 5. Cop26 effect
Quite a respectable bump. Has that been seen in the other pollsters? I vaguely recall some commentary from n here regarding a lack of movement for the Greens.
There are those who'll say "Keir", but I wouldn't be surprised if Insulate Britain has something to do with this. We know that attention is gold-dust in politics, and the focus they bring to a particular Green issue might be valuable.
I think this will probably annoy some people, as there seems to be almost universal disapproval for IB on here, but stop and think about it before you come steaming in with your opinions. We know that being a wind-up merchant has worked for Trump and Boris.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
You have no idea how I will vote in GE24, as at this moment in time, and at my age, I just keep taking my pills and enjoying the near 60 years with my beloved wife and family.
I often recall a very beloved uncle in Scotland who was terminal with cancer responding to me when I asked how he was
'Why should a breathing man complain' and a few weeks later he sadly passed away, bless him
I am not an 'apparatchik' with a 'weird purity' to the party and I do have standards.
The one thing that I am certain about is that the behaviour of a weak Boris, surrounded by idiotic Spartans like JRM, Jenkins, Paterson and Leadsom have done enormous damage to the conservative party.
This shambles has left me praying that the decent hard working 'red wall' mps will exert control over the party and either rein in Boris or if they cannot, replace him
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
Thank you for proving my point!
Remember I spent 13 years campaigning and voting for the Conservatives in opposition, eventually the cycle will turn again but I will still be voting for and backing the blues.
"regardless of how corrupt they are or how far they drift from the principles I believe in"
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
You have no idea how I will vote in GE24, as at this moment in time, and at my age, I just keep taking my pills and enjoying the near 60 years with my beloved wife and family.
I often recall a very beloved uncle in Scotland who was terminal with cancer responding to me when I asked how he was
'Why should a breathing man complain' and a few weeks later he sadly passed away, bless him
I am not an 'apparatchik' with a 'weird purity' to the party and I do have standards.
The one thing that I am certain about is that the behaviour of a weak Boris, surrounded by idiotic Spartans like JRM, Jenkins and Leadsom have done enormous damage to the conservative party.
This shambles has left me praying that the decent hard working 'red wall' mps will exert control over the party and either rein in Boris or if they cannot, replace him
And if they don't replace him with Sunak then that suggests you will indeed vote Labour or LD, your first non Tory vote since Blair was PM (I am sure you have many more years in you)
IPSOS MORI too so not some fly by night newish polling company. Just one poll but continues a general trend, and probably worthy of a new header.
But another example of people being annoyed with the Tories, but not flocking to Labour.
The left of centre vote is strikingly high though now. Even if you exclude the Lib Dems it is implied at over 50%.
Only if you include Scotland and the SNP voteshare, minus Scotland the Tories would likely still have a majority in England and Wales even on the new Ipsos Mori (plus with the DUP in England and Wales and NI).
Though yes it does suggest Starmer would become PM if he could get SNP confidence and supply
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
Thank you for proving my point!
Remember I spent 13 years campaigning and voting for the Conservatives in opposition, eventually the cycle will turn again but I will still be voting for and backing the blues.
"regardless of how corrupt they are or how far they drift from the principles I believe in"
If they lost power the Conservatives would move right anyway and back to core principles in opposition, just as Labour moved left and back to core principles when it lost power in 2010
The Ipsos MORI survey for The Standard put the Conservatives on 35 per cent, down four points on September, Labour unchanged on 36 per cent, the Greens up a startling five points to 11 per cent, and Liberal Democrats unchanged on nine per cent.
It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch PB turn into a slagging match where posters round on each other.
A good swedge is a pb.com highlight. Particularly if it's a tory blue-on-blue.
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
Yep, there's been quite a lot of blue-on-blue discord on here recently. Put Big G, HYUFD and PT in the same room and it would be mayhem.
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
Remember BigG and PT both voted for Blair though unlike me, if Labour got into government again and the Conservatives went into opposition I could see at least BigG shifting back to Labour or the LDs again
You have no idea how I will vote in GE24, as at this moment in time, and at my age, I just keep taking my pills and enjoying the near 60 years with my beloved wife and family.
I often recall a very beloved uncle in Scotland who was terminal with cancer responding to me when I asked how he was
'Why should a breathing man complain' and a few weeks later he sadly passed away, bless him
I am not an 'apparatchik' with a 'weird purity' to the party and I do have standards.
The one thing that I am certain about is that the behaviour of a weak Boris, surrounded by idiotic Spartans like JRM, Jenkins and Leadsom have done enormous damage to the conservative party.
This shambles has left me praying that the decent hard working 'red wall' mps will exert control over the party and either rein in Boris or if they cannot, replace him
And if they don't replace him with Sunak then that suggests you will indeed vote Labour or LD, your first non Tory vote since Blair was PM (I am sure you have many more years in you)
As will a lot of people - unless Boris and his party start to deliver what has been promised.
One of Boris's problems is that come Winter 2023 the large pay rises of Autumn 2021 will be completely forgotten.
The big problem is not how much MPs are paid... 😂"When reading of the latest cock-up, scandal or crony controversy the same question floats to mind: how on earth is this person a member of parliament?"
Oh that's easy - anyone with a brain knows there are way less stressful ways to earn money.
And there are enough constituents who believe they need their problem fixed now that it's now a 24/7 job.
MPs are amongst the top 3% of earners.
Do you think that 97% of the country lacks a brain?
The truth is that MPs are being paid (even including the expense stuff) a wage that is easily achievable within a 5 years of working in IT in London.
A fixed wage - so as they go forward, they fall behind their contemporaries.....
I have a suggestion - what about a system of promotion and pay increases? A career as an MP? At the moment, a back bencher of 30 yeas experience is paid the same as someone 20 minutes into the job....
And yet why isn't everybody in the country working in IT in London then?
What makes you think a backbench MP would be good enough to be such an IT worker in London?
What makes you think that an IT worker in London is the contemporary of a backbench MP? Why aren't the other 97% of the country that earn less than MPs their contemporaries?
I've met a few MPs - I would assess them, on average, as senior middle management grade, in general, with some high flyers.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
Those who can, do. Those who can't, manage.
The Dilbert Principle: the least capable employees are systematically moved to where they can do the least damage - management.
Comments
Surely we should be concerned about grift and corruption in Gov't on its own merits.
What do you suggest Rashford does? He already contributes far more to society than nearly anyone else I can think of.
You do come over as an envious person.
41 hours a month, £400k a year. £813 an hour (less 13.5% chambers’ fees)
Harry Cole deleted his Tweet.
Or are you counting earning £10 per hour as the same as earning £80k per year?
Not sure whether Claudia Webbe is still a member of the Labour Party, but she's likewise not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Funny to watch the Twitterati unquestionably pick up on the nearly £10k an hour figure though, which is ridiculously and unfeasably high, even for a top QC.
Not quite as sure about the Mail these days.
"Defund the courts," I guess.
Interesting argument; might not go down too well with the Tory faithful.
Have you encountered the average white collar worker?
I previously mentioned the example of a chap who turned up for interview. Despite his predicted first in IT/Tech Design, his final year project was something a teenager could have built on a wet afternoon. He hadn't troubled to actually understand the Python code he'd copied and pasted from the internet.
The only good thing about such people is that it comforting to see that my skills are so vastly in excess of other, apparently employable* people.
Back to MPs - that is their job? Are they minor civil servants? Are they 'The Upper 650" who run the country? If the later, we need to recruit, pay, *train* and promote as if they are C-suite.
*My boss found him on LinkedIn - we were startled by him and wanted to see what happened. He is working for a posh law firm now - as a *manager* in their IT department. After 2 years...
Have I got that right?
You apparently support corruption - your money being handed to Tory shills - because it is the party you support doing it. Whilst I know that people do donate cash to parties doing it in this indirect way is surely inefficient if nothing else.
Whatever happened to right and wrong? You quoted the bible whilst pointing at Labour. OK, so we see that splinter. Now what about that fuckoff great beam sticking out of Johnson's eye?
See https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/politics/2021/11/06/first-candidate-in-north-shropshire-by-election-confirmed-as-ex-council-leaders-daughter/
I have also posted that Boris should be got rid of asap.
And the support for your view point is where?
Can't see any of the Tories posting here supporting you can we? I wonder why? Does this never cross your mind?
1. A close colleague of Jezbollah
2. Imposed on the CLP to prove the evil of Blairites imposing people on CLPs
For a very long time, every little thing was down to "Thatcher" - a decade or more after she lost power. Before that, she pointed to the failings of what was both Wilson & (to control her wets) Heath, though under the generic label "Labour" - it wasn't so personalised then. We are now in the dying days of everything being "Blair/Brown"'s fault (a decade or so since they were out of power); once Johnson et al pass into history, it will be another decade at least before everything ceases to be Boris's fault. May and Cameron will escape this blame game, I suspect, as they lack star quality.
Again, the party you support is doling out peerages and PPE contracts to friends and patrons. Your Tevalyan-esque attempts at deflection away from that don't suggest condemnation.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?time=2021-09-20..latest&facet=none&uniformYAxis=0&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ITA~CAN~DEU~GBR~FRA~BEL~NLD~ESP~AUS~NZL~PRT~DNK~POL
Being an MP should not be solely about making money but about public service too, their current wage is about right ie clearly in the top 10% of earners but not enough to make them rich.
Though as I said last night I would raise the pay of the PM and Cabinet a bit to ensure they are clearly in the top 1% of earners given their responsibilities (albeit the PM and Chancellor and Foreign Secretary also get the use of a country house too as well as their residence in London).
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-loses-poll-lead-ipsos-mori-sleaze-scandal-b964945.html
Beginning of the end, or merely the end of the beginning for Boris Johnson?
I would love to see one of them turn into an IRL punch up.
However the Conservatives would still have most seats, electoral calculus gives the Conservatives 293 seats and Labour 269 and the LDs 12 on the new boundaries on this new Mori, so Starmer would need SNP confidence and supply to become PM.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=35&LAB=36&LIB=9&Reform=2&Green=11&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=22.3&SCOTLAB=18.3&SCOTLIB=6.3&SCOTReform=0.7&SCOTGreen=0.7&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=48.3&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
Boris down to a net -27%, Sunak also down to a net -9% and Truss on a net -24%.
Starmer is on a net -16%, so Sunak still better than Starmer even if Boris and Truss behind Starmer now
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-loses-poll-lead-ipsos-mori-sleaze-scandal-b964945.html
Article content: "The poll was largely conducted before the Owen Paterson sleaze scandal exploded at Westminster."
Either the Paterson affair had a huge impact on the small portion of the polling done at the end of the period, or this is picking up on something else. Or it's just noise!
By contrast, the red-on-red action has been pretty tame - just BJO switching sides. As for the yellows, well, they just don't bother arguing with one another.
I think this is a metaphor for wider issues of party unity.
There's a chance that you could see Labour on 40% before November is out.
I think this is known as a Comedic Tragedy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/11/07/electric-cars-get-expensive-battery-costs-soar/
“ The cost of lithium battery cells is rising for the first time after years of decline, with strained lithium supplies adding to rising prices of other cell materials.
“Chinese battery producers are said to be writing to customers looking to renegotiate contracts, including moving away from fixed pricing structures. “
…
“ Benchmark says prices for battery grade lithium carbonate in China have climbed more than 300pc since October 2020, hitting $28,765 in October. Prices for nickel and cobalt, also key battery ingredients, have also climbed, with Benchmark’s cathode price index up by 62.4pc over the year.
“It believes the lithium supply shortages are set to deepen next year and continue through the mid-2020s. “
He was on the radio this morning re: the current imbroglio.
I was impressed.
Paying them but not in a way which reflects the gravity of supreme power and responsibility for the UK may be the worst way of all.
Instead they could be seen as supreme part time trustees of the UK, unpaid, and payment go to the full timers who do the work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
11% is the highest for the Greens this Parliament, and the smooth of the polls suggest a strengthening of Green support during October, but it's quite modest so easy to miss when looking at individual polls.
Though yes it does suggest Starmer would become PM if he could get SNP confidence and supply
- "Labour's 5 point plan to tackle political corruption and ensure the independence of the parliamentary standards bodies"
- Labour's 3 step strategy for "making Brexit work" (can be as full of motherhood and apple pie, even of cakeism, as the leave campaign):
- Labour's clean water pledge: "if you elect us we'll force the water companies to release nothing but pure mountain spring water, passed through activated charcoal filters into our beloved watercourses"
- Labour's net zero promise: "we'll deliver clean green power to all while capping home energy bills"
"How will you pay for all this?"
"Easy, we'll restructure our wasteful and corrupt test and trace system and use the billions saved on that to fund free unicorns for all".
They really need to start setting the narrative.
We know that attention is gold-dust in politics, and the focus they bring to a particular Green issue might be valuable.
I think this will probably annoy some people, as there seems to be almost universal disapproval for IB on here, but stop and think about it before you come steaming in with your opinions. We know that being a wind-up merchant has worked for Trump and Boris.
I often recall a very beloved uncle in Scotland who was terminal with cancer responding to me when I asked how he was
'Why should a breathing man complain' and a few weeks later he sadly passed away, bless him
I am not an 'apparatchik' with a 'weird purity' to the party and I do have standards.
The one thing that I am certain about is that the behaviour of a weak Boris, surrounded by idiotic Spartans like JRM, Jenkins, Paterson and Leadsom have done enormous damage to the conservative party.
This shambles has left me praying that the decent hard working 'red wall' mps will exert control over the party and either rein in Boris or if they cannot, replace him
One of Boris's problems is that come Winter 2023 the large pay rises of Autumn 2021 will be completely forgotten.