UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
Do the experts think Dose 3 will “complete” the programme, or is vaccinator now a job for life?
Plus, of course, our first vaccines were developed quickly, and will be further improved as time goes on. And some things - like tetanus - we get boosters every few years.
My guess is that we'll have annual boosters for a year or two, and then it'll get integrated with the flu shot.
Does anyone actually get their tetanus booster?
I was bitten by a dog a few years ago and had one. Otherwise I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to me.
How's the dog?
It was a ****** little terrier which ran straight out of a terraced house and bit me. I had to summon all my zen like discipline not to boot it back over its useless owners who were trailing behind it and into the house from whence it came.
It seemed fine. It is as always the owners who deserve the opprobrium.
50 yrs ago I had a dog attempt to do that to me and I caught it full on and drop kicked it to the other side of the road. I don't think the old lady was too pleased but I doubt her dog ever did it again. Left me with a new pr of trousers with a rip in them.. bit it was worth it.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
Do the experts think Dose 3 will “complete” the programme, or is vaccinator now a job for life?
Plus, of course, our first vaccines were developed quickly, and will be further improved as time goes on. And some things - like tetanus - we get boosters every few years.
My guess is that we'll have annual boosters for a year or two, and then it'll get integrated with the flu shot.
Does anyone actually get their tetanus booster?
I was bitten by a dog a few years ago and had one. Otherwise I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to me.
How's the dog?
It was a ****** little terrier which ran straight out of a terraced house and bit me. I had to summon all my zen like discipline not to boot it back over its useless owners who were trailing behind it and into the house from whence it came.
It seemed fine. It is as always the owners who deserve the opprobrium.
50 yrs ago I had a dog attempt to do that to me and I caught it full on and drop kicked it to the other side of the road. I don't think the old lady was too pleased but I doubt her dog ever did it again. Left me with a new pr of trousers with a rip in them.. bit it was worth it.
This was the sweetest Japanese couple who evidently had let the dog rule the roost. And a terrier to boot (!) which doesn't need much encouragement. I think they were genuinely fearful I would stamp on it. I hope my shouting at them made them realise the responsibility of having an out of control dog.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Interesting data models this morning. The government data people agree with what some of us have been saying for weeks, we're approaching vaccine+natural herd immunity. It may be a matter of days before cases fall through the floor and everything else follows.
It's interesting that these data models that may be very accurate and paint a "don't panic" picture had to be leaked to the media while the "panic now" models with 7k hospitalisations per day get openly revealed by SPI-M and SAGE.
There has been a real lack of honesty by the scientists doing the work.
Anyway, fingers crossed that they (and we) are right about this.
The other thing that was very interesting was the government data modellers now also believe NPIs serve as displacement activity. When we didn't have vaccines displacement activity was a net positive, now it may be a net negative because those of us who got vaccinated may have waning immunity.
Plan B, lockdown, Plan C. They all may end up making everyone feel good about how virtuous they all are saving lives but could end up doing the opposite as we all sit indoors with our immunity dropping off. I'd rather come into contact with the virus at 90% efficacy than 60%.
The route for all the modelling has been exactly the same, to be fair. It's merely the way the media splash (or do not splash) that has been variable. There have been about three or four further projections of hospitalisations (generally peaking and declining) since the last one the media highlighted as being "newsworthy" enough. I'm actually a bit surprised that they bothered with this latest one - but the publication route and way they've been revealed have been exactly the same every time.
I remember arguing with someone on another forum about the September ones - he thought they should have been held secret.
I am a big advocate of open sourcing the modelling. What is the need for secrecy? Set it free, like the data.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
Got to get the plebs out of their cars and onto the buses, leave the roads for the important people.
To be more serious, there is going to be a huge pushback against the green stuff, when people see it affecting their daily lives. How many low-income workers in key services, have old cars they run on shoestring budgets to get to work? It’s millions across the country.
Two discussions getting disproportionately little space: What are the impacts of trending towards zero emissions on less well off people.
And what is the practical maths of whether it is in fact possible to reach the maximum target levels of CO2 in the timeframe (or at all), and then keep them there by continuing zero emissions.
This second question is by miles objectively the most important and most interesting. The relative absence of popular and political level discussion suggests both a disquieting answer and denial.
Does anyone know if I am right about this?
The least well off people in the world - subsistence farmers in Africa or people in Bangladesh for instance - are the people who stand to lose most from the world not going to net zero. It's up to the UK government to find a way for us to meet our collective obligations while mitigating its impact on the poor here as much as possible. We all have to do our bit and we all have to make some sacrifices. It's worth remembering that the rich have far higher carbon emissions than the poor, in every country, so the rich should make the biggest changes.
I agree with all of that, but it doesn't address the two questions.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Hope you get better soon mate. Took my dad about 3 or 4 days to get over it, said the same thing, it's like the flu. When I had it early on last year in March it was very much not like the flu.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Question is - which flu? The real nasty, can't get out of bed, can barely post on PB flu? Or the feel a bit shit, but I'm ok to go to the pub with my mates and say 'its a touch of flu'?
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
Absolutely, that's why Klopp told the team to take their foot off the gas the moment Pogba was sent off, if it had turned into a 10 nil victory then OGS was getting sacked. Klopp made sure we protected OGS.
I didn't think anything, match game atmosphere wise, would top winning the Champions League or PL but yesterday surpassed it.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Hope you get better soon mate. Took my dad about 3 or 4 days to get over it, said the same thing, it's like the flu. When I had it early on last year in March it was very much not like the flu.
Thanks v much. Yep I can believe there is a world of difference between then and now.
And with all the caveats that for some people it is serious, even when double-jabbed, etc, we must remember that we have to all intents and purposes relegated this to a not overwhelmingly serious illness.
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
TLdr: if vaccine efficacy doesn’t last long and you go first, you need to be first with the follow up, or your advantage disappears. Especially it the vaccine you choose isn’t quite as good.
Though I don't think rcs100's figures are quite right. Germany fully vaccinated 40% of the population on July 7th, the UK would have been 2 or 3 *weeks* before that I think, not 3-4 months. And surely it is the time since the second dose that matters? I haven't checked, but I don't think France or Italy or other western European countries will be very different.
The booster program in Germany is very slow at the moment, but I'm still more worried about the 3.2 million over 60s who haven't had a first dose yet (plus the 12.5 million 18-59 year olds). Most of these won't have immunity from prior infection either.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Question is - which flu? The real nasty, can't get out of bed, can barely post on PB flu? Or the feel a bit shit, but I'm ok to go to the pub with my mates and say 'its a touch of flu'?
And get well soon!
Ha! Thanks v much. For me, so far, the feel a bit shit otherwise you'd never know type of flu.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
I'm not a fan of vaccine passports but if even the sainted Jacinda Ardern is going down that line, you start to wonder. I think we have seriously misconstrued their use in the UK. Clearly its not about stopping the virus in a nightclub or at the footy. Its actually about putting pressure on those who have not yet had the vaccine to get it, or else your life will get a lot shitter.
So maybe the time as come. If we have 5 million refusers then lets put the onus on them, not on everyone else.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
I'm not a fan of vaccine passports but if even the sainted Jacinda Ardern is going down that line, you start to wonder. I think we have seriously misconstrued their use in the UK. Clearly its not about stopping the virus in a nightclub or at the footy. Its actually about putting pressure on those who have not yet had the vaccine to get it, or else your life will get a lot shitter.
So maybe the time as come. If we have 5 million refusers then lets put the onus on them, not on everyone else.
Yes, put pressure on the refusniks - but not in a way that disrupts businesses and the vaccinated.
First time in a few years I didn't go corporate hospitality and went in the away end with the great unwashed.
Loved every moment of it.
The bizarre thing is, everyone was nervous before kick off, no Mane, Matip, and Fabinho, Old Trafford is not the place to make your second appearance as a centre back.
If you’ve been wondering what’s happening in terms of variants, here’s a good thread to catch you up on AY4.2, a variant scientists are starting to take an interest in because it’s holding it’s own against delta and even increasing in frequency in UK
and
Worth pointing out that this is in line with what many scientists expected:
Delta arose independently of Alpha and replaced it. But Delta is so transmissible that it seemed likely any new successful variant would evolve out of Delta. AY.4.2 may be that variant
- eek again
It's worth remembering that all variants start in the UK because we are the people doing the most test to check for new mutations / variants
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
I'm not a fan of vaccine passports but if even the sainted Jacinda Ardern is going down that line, you start to wonder. I think we have seriously misconstrued their use in the UK. Clearly its not about stopping the virus in a nightclub or at the footy. Its actually about putting pressure on those who have not yet had the vaccine to get it, or else your life will get a lot shitter.
So maybe the time as come. If we have 5 million refusers then lets put the onus on them, not on everyone else.
Surely the issue is "the sainted Jacinda" has been acting as if every case is a tragedy.
While here in the UK we've acted with a nonchalance of "OK don't get vaccinated if you don't want to, but you'll probably get Covid and may die"
Now the UK has had for a few months enough herd immunity to prevent exponential growth and the collapse of the NHS - as a result of the "natural immunity" antivaxxers and kids have developed, we're probably going to have enough herd immunity to see cases really start to fall.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
And I am one of those who has now become infected.
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Question is - which flu? The real nasty, can't get out of bed, can barely post on PB flu? Or the feel a bit shit, but I'm ok to go to the pub with my mates and say 'its a touch of flu'?
And get well soon!
Ha! Thanks v much. For me, so far, the feel a bit shit otherwise you'd never know type of flu.
Good question by @turbotubbs and pleased to see that answer. Whereas before I hardly knew anyone with Covid, now practically everyone in my age group (60 - 70) that I know has it. All have mild flu like symptoms, with one exception who ended up in ICU. He is now out, but not well, but he wasn't the healthiest of individuals in the first place.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
The problem here is that both sides were guilty of these misrepresentations. It was a sudden, catastrophic lowering of the quality of political discourse. Outright lying became normalised. And consequently, the people elected Boris Johnson; apparently percieving this political style to be preferable to the naive "democratic socialism" of Jeremy Corbyn. Keir Starmer likes to present himself as being above such antics, representing strong and stable government from an imagined pre 2015 world. But the people don't seem to be particularly interested.
If you’ve been wondering what’s happening in terms of variants, here’s a good thread to catch you up on AY4.2, a variant scientists are starting to take an interest in because it’s holding it’s own against delta and even increasing in frequency in UK
and
Worth pointing out that this is in line with what many scientists expected:
Delta arose independently of Alpha and replaced it. But Delta is so transmissible that it seemed likely any new successful variant would evolve out of Delta. AY.4.2 may be that variant
- eek again
It's worth remembering that all variants start in the UK because we are the people doing the most test to check for new mutations / variants
Yep -its started to make the news now. What would be spiffing if it were more infectious but milder. That may be too much to hope!
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
Absolutely, that's why Klopp told the team to take their foot off the gas the moment Pogba was sent off, if it had turned into a 10 nil victory then OGS was getting sacked. Klopp made sure we protected OGS.
I didn't think anything, match game atmosphere wise, would top winning the Champions League or PL but yesterday surpassed it.
OGS reminds me of Souness-era Liverpool. All the players, none of the tactics.
If you’ve been wondering what’s happening in terms of variants, here’s a good thread to catch you up on AY4.2, a variant scientists are starting to take an interest in because it’s holding it’s own against delta and even increasing in frequency in UK
and
Worth pointing out that this is in line with what many scientists expected:
Delta arose independently of Alpha and replaced it. But Delta is so transmissible that it seemed likely any new successful variant would evolve out of Delta. AY.4.2 may be that variant
- eek again
It's worth remembering that all variants start in the UK because we are the people doing the most test to check for new mutations / variants
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
Do the experts think Dose 3 will “complete” the programme, or is vaccinator now a job for life?
Plus, of course, our first vaccines were developed quickly, and will be further improved as time goes on. And some things - like tetanus - we get boosters every few years.
My guess is that we'll have annual boosters for a year or two, and then it'll get integrated with the flu shot.
Does anyone actually get their tetanus booster?
I was bitten by a dog a few years ago and had one. Otherwise I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to me.
How's the dog?
It was a ****** little terrier which ran straight out of a terraced house and bit me. I had to summon all my zen like discipline not to boot it back over its useless owners who were trailing behind it and into the house from whence it came.
It seemed fine. It is as always the owners who deserve the opprobrium.
My sympathies but some sympathy for the owners too. Dogs are terribly unpredictable. We once had builders leave our gate open and our normally sweet and loveable border collie took the opportunity to bite a passing pug.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
The problem here is that both sides were guilty of these misrepresentations. It was a sudden, catastrophic lowering of the quality of political discourse. Outright lying became normalised. And consequently, the people elected Boris Johnson; apparently percieving that government by an incompetent liar is preferable to the naive "democratic socialism" of Jeremy Corbyn. Keir Starmer likes to present himself as being above such antics, representing strong and stable government from an imagined pre 2015 world. But the people don't seem to be particularly interested.
Hmmm.
Could we have banned force-fed Foie Gras whilst in the EU?
There may be other examples - there are a hell of a lot of derogations for individual EU countries from welfare standards.
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
TLdr: if vaccine efficacy doesn’t last long and you go first, you need to be first with the follow up, or your advantage disappears. Especially it the vaccine you choose isn’t quite as good.
Though I don't think rcs100's figures are quite right. Germany fully vaccinated 40% of the population on July 7th, the UK would have been 2 or 3 *weeks* before that I think, not 3-4 months. And surely it is the time since the second dose that matters? I haven't checked, but I don't think France or Italy or other western European countries will be very different.
The booster program in Germany is very slow at the moment, but I'm still more worried about the 3.2 million over 60s who haven't had a first dose yet (plus the 12.5 million 18-59 year olds). Most of these won't have immunity from prior infection either.
I got some stick for pointing out, earlier in the year, that while vaccinating 90%+ of the vaccinatable population would be a great result, that would still leave millions unprotected.... Which gives us the "exit waves"...
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
As a United supporter since pre Munich, and a season ticket holder for many years until recently, I can only say yesterday's performance was the most abject failure I can ever recall and it has been clear for some time OGS and his staff are simply not upto the job
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
Do the experts think Dose 3 will “complete” the programme, or is vaccinator now a job for life?
Plus, of course, our first vaccines were developed quickly, and will be further improved as time goes on. And some things - like tetanus - we get boosters every few years.
My guess is that we'll have annual boosters for a year or two, and then it'll get integrated with the flu shot.
Does anyone actually get their tetanus booster?
I was bitten by a dog a few years ago and had one. Otherwise I'm sure it wouldn't have occurred to me.
How's the dog?
It was a ****** little terrier which ran straight out of a terraced house and bit me. I had to summon all my zen like discipline not to boot it back over its useless owners who were trailing behind it and into the house from whence it came.
It seemed fine. It is as always the owners who deserve the opprobrium.
My sympathies but some sympathy for the owners too. Dogs are terribly unpredictable. We once had builders leave our gate open and our normally sweet and loveable border collie took the opportunity to bite a passing pug.
These things happen, but owners not best pleased.
On is more forgiving when the offending dog's owners don't hesitate to cover the bill. A lab caused £1000 of vet bills to our cocker and we had to push and push to get them to pay. They did in the end.
If you’ve been wondering what’s happening in terms of variants, here’s a good thread to catch you up on AY4.2, a variant scientists are starting to take an interest in because it’s holding it’s own against delta and even increasing in frequency in UK
and
Worth pointing out that this is in line with what many scientists expected:
Delta arose independently of Alpha and replaced it. But Delta is so transmissible that it seemed likely any new successful variant would evolve out of Delta. AY.4.2 may be that variant
- eek again
It's worth remembering that all variants start in the UK because we are the people doing the most test to check for new mutations / variants
It's a subvariant of delta
And it's how all these epidemics eventually finish - an even more infectious (and hopefully less severe) variant catches all the remaining potential hosts until herd immunity is reached.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
I'm not a fan of vaccine passports but if even the sainted Jacinda Ardern is going down that line, you start to wonder. I think we have seriously misconstrued their use in the UK. Clearly its not about stopping the virus in a nightclub or at the footy. Its actually about putting pressure on those who have not yet had the vaccine to get it, or else your life will get a lot shitter.
So maybe the time as come. If we have 5 million refusers then lets put the onus on them, not on everyone else.
Yes, put pressure on the refusniks - but not in a way that disrupts businesses and the vaccinated.
Emm difficult one. From my trip to France I could see they are really hot on the vaccine certificate. The bar and restaurant owners were livid about it. It was a conversation you ended up having with each of them, so that implies it is having some impact on business, but I couldn't see how. Maybe they were just annoyed that it had been imposed as the places were buzzing and it took just seconds to scan the certificate so there didn't actually seem to be an issue.
I really have missed going to live sporting events during the plague.
Yep, have spent the last few weeks buying loads of sports tickets for the winter. It’s the one thing I’ve really missed during the pandemic.
Really looking forward to England v Australia on Saturday.
Lucky you.
It's the sarcasm/banter I missed a lot.
I swear the biggest cheer of the day from the Liverpool end was when the Ronaldo goal was ruled out by VAR.
We celebrated that louder any of our own goals.
Lucky you too, I know that away tix for OT are proper gold dust.
I’m very happy the ICC moved the T20 World Cup from India, and that no-one seems to want to travel to watch it. There’s still tickets available for most matches.
Also got the Dubai Rugby 7s and the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in the bag, on consecutive weekends around my birthday - that’s going to be the post-pandemic party!
The final scoreline of a match doesn’t always tell the whole story. That has been one of the major themes of football analysis in recent years; the embracing of the ‘expected goals’ metric is, in part, because innovative thinkers realised that game results alone are ‘noisy’ and can sometimes be misleading.
But it’s not just about the underlying numbers. After all, look at the expected goals figures for Manchester United’s 5-0 loss to Liverpool on Sunday (3.44 to 1.50) and you might think they were unfortunate. Around 4-1 would have been more fitting.
But the xG numbers don’t account for the fact Liverpool stopped playing after getting their fifth on 50 minutes, not bothering to try to run up a historic scoreline. Tottenham Hotspur did the same last season in their own five-goal win at Old Trafford, or else United would surely have suffered a club-record defeat on both occasions.
The numbers don’t explain the extent to which United lost their heads, with Cristiano Ronaldo and Harry Maguire flirting with the possibility of a red card before Paul Pogba went over the top with a tackle that was more malicious than it was mistimed.
The numbers don’t fully show United’s complete lack of structure without possession, their approach to pressing being about individuals making pointless lone runs in an attempt to prove to us they’re working hard.
The numbers don’t show that one of Liverpool’s one-on-ones came from Marcus Rashford’s 60-yard through ball in behind his own defence for Mohamed Salah.
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
As a United supporter since pre Munich, and a season ticket holder for many years until recently, I can only say yesterday's performance was the most abject failure I can ever recall and it has been clear for some time OGS and his staff are simply not upto the job
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
Business judgement? The Glazers have all they want - the brand and past glories. There is no money being spent on an increasingly tatty stadium, money for players but specifically to sell shirts, and buckets of money spent on new Manchester United experience venues in China.
What do they care about the results now? OGS is a Legend! Look, he scored the Winner in the Champions League Final and now he just bought Ronaldo! Now but £18 Fish and Chips in our chinese museum thing.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
Got to get the plebs out of their cars and onto the buses, leave the roads for the important people.
To be more serious, there is going to be a huge pushback against the green stuff, when people see it affecting their daily lives. How many low-income workers in key services, have old cars they run on shoestring budgets to get to work? It’s millions across the country.
Two discussions getting disproportionately little space: What are the impacts of trending towards zero emissions on less well off people.
And what is the practical maths of whether it is in fact possible to reach the maximum target levels of CO2 in the timeframe (or at all), and then keep them there by continuing zero emissions.
This second question is by miles objectively the most important and most interesting. The relative absence of popular and political level discussion suggests both a disquieting answer and denial.
Does anyone know if I am right about this?
The least well off people in the world - subsistence farmers in Africa or people in Bangladesh for instance - are the people who stand to lose most from the world not going to net zero. It's up to the UK government to find a way for us to meet our collective obligations while mitigating its impact on the poor here as much as possible. We all have to do our bit and we all have to make some sacrifices. It's worth remembering that the rich have far higher carbon emissions than the poor, in every country, so the rich should make the biggest changes.
I agree with all of that, but it doesn't address the two questions.
A full transition by 2050 is perfectly possible, and there are several detailed economic/technical studies demonstrating that. But it can only happen if sufficient money is directed at the replacement infrastructure required, rather than replacing legacy infrastructure with legacy technology (new coal plants, for example).
Much of the poorer parts of the world ought to be beneficiaries, since they are well located to benefit from renewables.
The problem is that fully committing to the transition worldwide is going to be painful for many in the first decade.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
I don't giveca fuck what any political says. They are all liars. amazing how few people see this.amd expecially whoever happens to be the opposition. Opposition is to oppose even it its wrong.this
If only someone had warned that partnering up with that fourth rate university would be suboptimal for AstraZeneca.
Pfizer = Jürgen Klopp
Oxford AstraZeneca = Ole Gunnar Solskjær
I know you're joking, and I'm a fan of the superior university, but that's really unfair.
Oxford/AZ have produced a vaccine that is cheaper, non-profit, easier to administer around the world, and which AIUI is easier to produce. And they did so very, very rapidly. They deserve plaudits for it, not silly jokes.
Bat up, not down: if you really want to celebrate Cambridge in all this (albeit not directly the uni), then praise all the genomics work that's been centred on the city (or a few miles south). Truly world-beating.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
The issue is making hundreds of thousands of businesses, and tens of millions of vaccinated people, jump through hoops because of the 10% who don’t want to be vaccinated.
Those who did the right thing, should be able to live their lives as normal.
I should add that vaccine passports can be disapplied if not needed, which I believe Denmark has done. It gives that control. In the UK vaccines are nearly good enough on their own to control the epidemic, so it is marginal. Nevertheless hospitalisation rates are way too high for a sustainable basis, leaving aside the unnecessary serious illness and potentially worse.
I really have missed going to live sporting events during the plague.
Yep, have spent the last few weeks buying loads of sports tickets for the winter. It’s the one thing I’ve really missed during the pandemic.
Really looking forward to England v Australia on Saturday.
Lucky you.
It's the sarcasm/banter I missed a lot.
I swear the biggest cheer of the day from the Liverpool end was when the Ronaldo goal was ruled out by VAR.
We celebrated that louder any of our own goals.
Lucky you too, I know that away tix for OT are proper gold dust.
I’m very happy the ICC moved the T20 World Cup from India, and that no-one seems to want to travel to watch it. There’s still tickets available for most matches.
Also got the Dubai Rugby 7s and the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in the bag, on consecutive weekends around my birthday - that’s going to be the post-pandemic party!
Enjoy them.
Although I've come to accept the Dutch shunt (sic) is going to win the F1 title this year.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
You are not. You are free to go to a concert, you just might have to show your vaccine passport, just like I am free to drive on the roads but I might have to show my driving licence, MOT certificate or insurance. No different.
I agree entirely. Vaccine passports and the like don't prevent people from doing things. They give you a choice of doing all those things provided that you agree to do one thing strongly recommended by all the medical advice out there.
You're only prevented from doing things if you fail to make the right choice.
And without vaccine passports, if you exercise your liberty to make the wrong choice under vaccine passports, you will also of course curtail others' liberty. Vaccinated but in many cases still vulnerable people who might wish to resume a normal life will in many cases continue to withdraw from society for fear of running into an unvaccinated numpty.
I'm pretty sure that, 2 centuries on, JS Mill would have seen the merits in vaccine passports.
People eligible for the booster who have had the booster People eligible for the the booster who want the booster but cannot get it People eligible for the booster who don't want the booster (or at least not yet)
Because I know lots in the first group and none in the second.
But its the third group which is the interesting one and which is receiving no publicity.
I really have missed going to live sporting events during the plague.
Yep, have spent the last few weeks buying loads of sports tickets for the winter. It’s the one thing I’ve really missed during the pandemic.
Really looking forward to England v Australia on Saturday.
Lucky you.
It's the sarcasm/banter I missed a lot.
I swear the biggest cheer of the day from the Liverpool end was when the Ronaldo goal was ruled out by VAR.
We celebrated that louder any of our own goals.
Lucky you too, I know that away tix for OT are proper gold dust.
I’m very happy the ICC moved the T20 World Cup from India, and that no-one seems to want to travel to watch it. There’s still tickets available for most matches.
Also got the Dubai Rugby 7s and the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in the bag, on consecutive weekends around my birthday - that’s going to be the post-pandemic party!
Enjoy them.
Although I've come to accept the Dutch shunt (sic) is going to win the F1 title this year.
It does look that way. I’ll be happy as long as it goes down to the last race though. I was there in 2016 as Lewis tried to back Nico into Seb for the last 20 laps, that was a great race to watch.
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
As a United supporter since pre Munich, and a season ticket holder for many years until recently, I can only say yesterday's performance was the most abject failure I can ever recall and it has been clear for some time OGS and his staff are simply not upto the job
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
Business judgement? The Glazers have all they want - the brand and past glories. There is no money being spent on an increasingly tatty stadium, money for players but specifically to sell shirts, and buckets of money spent on new Manchester United experience venues in China.
What do they care about the results now? OGS is a Legend! Look, he scored the Winner in the Champions League Final and now he just bought Ronaldo! Now but £18 Fish and Chips in our chinese museum thing.
For most of the 30 years between League Titles, LFC fans could still hold their heads up high (even if losing) and the club was doing what was best just it didn't work. Except for Hicks and Gillette, if Hicks and Gillette hadn't been forced out then that's the fate that Liverpool would have had too.
As much as its fun to engage in schadenfreude banter, there but for grace go we ...
Mark M Bathgate @m_bathgate · 56m A month after the initial move in prices higher - UK natural gas wholesale prices are still almost 500% higher than the average of the last 5 years. If this continues household prices could rise as much as 150%.
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
As a United supporter since pre Munich, and a season ticket holder for many years until recently, I can only say yesterday's performance was the most abject failure I can ever recall and it has been clear for some time OGS and his staff are simply not upto the job
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
Business judgement? The Glazers have all they want - the brand and past glories. There is no money being spent on an increasingly tatty stadium, money for players but specifically to sell shirts, and buckets of money spent on new Manchester United experience venues in China.
What do they care about the results now? OGS is a Legend! Look, he scored the Winner in the Champions League Final and now he just bought Ronaldo! Now but £18 Fish and Chips in our chinese museum thing.
Rather cynical with an element of truth but the numbers leaving OT before the final whistle and the utter chaos of their play is going to see change not least because their next PL fixtures are Spurs, City, Watford, Chelsea, Arsenal and Palace
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
You are not. You are free to go to a concert, you just might have to show your vaccine passport, just like I am free to drive on the roads but I might have to show my driving licence, MOT certificate or insurance. No different.
I agree entirely. Vaccine passports and the like don't prevent people from doing things. They give you a choice of doing all those things provided that you agree to do one thing strongly recommended by all the medical advice out there.
You're only prevented from doing things if you fail to make the right choice.
And without vaccine passports, if you exercise your liberty to make the wrong choice under vaccine passports, you will also of course curtail others' liberty. Vaccinated but in many cases still vulnerable people who might wish to resume a normal life will in many cases continue to withdraw from society for fear of running into an unvaccinated numpty.
I'm pretty sure that, 2 centuries on, JS Mill would have seen the merits in vaccine passports.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
I really have missed going to live sporting events during the plague.
Yep, have spent the last few weeks buying loads of sports tickets for the winter. It’s the one thing I’ve really missed during the pandemic.
Really looking forward to England v Australia on Saturday.
Lucky you.
It's the sarcasm/banter I missed a lot.
I swear the biggest cheer of the day from the Liverpool end was when the Ronaldo goal was ruled out by VAR.
We celebrated that louder any of our own goals.
Lucky you too, I know that away tix for OT are proper gold dust.
I’m very happy the ICC moved the T20 World Cup from India, and that no-one seems to want to travel to watch it. There’s still tickets available for most matches.
Also got the Dubai Rugby 7s and the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in the bag, on consecutive weekends around my birthday - that’s going to be the post-pandemic party!
Enjoy them.
Although I've come to accept the Dutch shunt (sic) is going to win the F1 title this year.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
I don't giveca fuck what any political says. They are all liars. amazing how few people see this.amd expecially whoever happens to be the opposition. Opposition is to oppose even it its wrong.this
I'm glad that you accept that BJ and his government are liars, I just wish you'd stop tediously giving a fuck about it when people point that out.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Checking I see that people registered for CC pre-July 2020 have their discount grandfathered in. Shouldn't this be you, or do you live in the 'burbs eg Zone 2 ?
I’m in the burbs
How can it cost you £20 each time you drive if you don't live in the CC zone? I live in zone 2 and in the ten years I've lived here I've never paid the CC, for the simple reason that I never drive into Central London. Get the bus!
The primary driving we do is to the Tower. Most other places we walk.
It's a good example of the crap you post if nothing else ....
How? That tweet by Carrie Johnson and Gove's comment were utter nonsense. The EU did not stop us having higher standards. In fact the UK did have a tendency to gold plate EU regulations and then blame the EU for them.
The EU prevented us from failing below minimum standards, it did not prevent us from exceeding them so Gove was being entirely irrational (I suspect intentionally so for those to stupid to realise it).
That such a transparently obvious truth needs explaining shows why Brexit discussions are futile. People believe what they want to believe.
Carrie’s tweet wasn’t utter nonsense. Meaningless and with no predictive value, but accurate.
Leaving doesn’t mean we WILL do x In fact we CAN do y
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Get an ebike
Not taking my kid cycling across central London
For the next 4 years you can get an e-car.
Indeed an extra car is one of Sadiq's Solutions on his website.
I'd expect cycling in London to continue to improve, though there are not enough segregated routes yet.
The first time I did it I forgot to unclip myself from my pedals at the traffic lights in Trafalgar Square.
It's a combination of AZ not being as effective as Pfizer/Moderna - particularly at reducing transmission - and the fact that the UK started earlier.
If you look at the median point - i.e. when 40% of people were jabbed - then the UK got there between three and four months before European countries.
The combination of these two facts means the UK is suffering worst from fading protection.
FORTUNATELY.
This is also happening at the same time that the major transmission vector (schools) is running out of hosts. And the UK is also getting on with getting people booster doses. (Albeit, slightly slower than one might like.) Plus, all the evidence is that AZ + Pfizer/Moderna actually offers the best protection of all.
So long as the UK gets on with booster doses, there is a great deal of reason to be optimistic about the track of cases and hospitalisation.
And what of Europe? Well, right now Eastern Europe (particularly Bulgaria) is being hammered. You also have big outbreaks in Eastern Germany (low levels of vaccination) and in Brussels (ditto).
Most of Europe is not (yet) facing a diminishing vaccine efficacy issue, except for the very old. That will change. But they also have plentiful supplies now, and they have a proven ability to get jabs in arms. They too need to start executing on third doses. They are lucky, however, that they probably have a couple of months on the UK.
Do the experts think Dose 3 will “complete” the programme, or is vaccinator now a job for life?
Plus, of course, our first vaccines were developed quickly, and will be further improved as time goes on. And some things - like tetanus - we get boosters every few years.
My guess is that we'll have annual boosters for a year or two, and then it'll get integrated with the flu shot.
Re tetanus, my father in law was told after going to a minor accident unit recently with a gash from some wire in the garden that he didn't need a booster as he'd had five in his lifetime. According to the nurse, at least, the magic number for tetanus is five.
Mark M Bathgate @m_bathgate · 56m A month after the initial move in prices higher - UK natural gas wholesale prices are still almost 500% higher than the average of the last 5 years. If this continues household prices could rise as much as 150%.
The word "if" is doing a lot of work here. UK natural gas futures for Dec-22 are only a bit over 100% above their average for the last 5 years - so the market is not currently pricing the current levels to be sustained, although of course what is priced is still a substantial increase.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
Liverpool were marvellous yesterday, for 60 minutes anyway. Stunning. But I still think the team of the weekend were Pakistan.
They beat India, the best team in the world, easily. Although Kohli batted for nearly all the India innings, they could still only muster 151. And then Pakistan knocked off the runs without losing a wicket. It was a massacre. India are tougher opponents than Man U.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
Got to get the plebs out of their cars and onto the buses, leave the roads for the important people.
To be more serious, there is going to be a huge pushback against the green stuff, when people see it affecting their daily lives. How many low-income workers in key services, have old cars they run on shoestring budgets to get to work? It’s millions across the country.
Two discussions getting disproportionately little space: What are the impacts of trending towards zero emissions on less well off people.
And what is the practical maths of whether it is in fact possible to reach the maximum target levels of CO2 in the timeframe (or at all), and then keep them there by continuing zero emissions.
This second question is by miles objectively the most important and most interesting. The relative absence of popular and political level discussion suggests both a disquieting answer and denial.
Does anyone know if I am right about this?
The least well off people in the world - subsistence farmers in Africa or people in Bangladesh for instance - are the people who stand to lose most from the world not going to net zero. It's up to the UK government to find a way for us to meet our collective obligations while mitigating its impact on the poor here as much as possible. We all have to do our bit and we all have to make some sacrifices. It's worth remembering that the rich have far higher carbon emissions than the poor, in every country, so the rich should make the biggest changes.
I agree with all of that, but it doesn't address the two questions.
A full transition by 2050 is perfectly possible, and there are several detailed economic/technical studies demonstrating that. But it can only happen if sufficient money is directed at the replacement infrastructure required, rather than replacing legacy infrastructure with legacy technology (new coal plants, for example).
Much of the poorer parts of the world ought to be beneficiaries, since they are well located to benefit from renewables.
The problem is that fully committing to the transition worldwide is going to be painful for many in the first decade.
The technical studies showing what can be done in a perfectly conforming world is a different question. The maths of attaining zero CO2 in the timeframe has to take account of, for example, the current China coal fired programme, the Indian commitment to coal, the Saudi Arabia commitment to zero by 2050 but continuing to produce oil and gas, and the fact that after decades of talk and conferences the output of CO2 has not increased but is now at record levels, and rising.
Best sporting news to see this morning, beating out the fact OGS hasn't been sacked.
As a United supporter since pre Munich, and a season ticket holder for many years until recently, I can only say yesterday's performance was the most abject failure I can ever recall and it has been clear for some time OGS and his staff are simply not upto the job
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
Business judgement? The Glazers have all they want - the brand and past glories. There is no money being spent on an increasingly tatty stadium, money for players but specifically to sell shirts, and buckets of money spent on new Manchester United experience venues in China.
What do they care about the results now? OGS is a Legend! Look, he scored the Winner in the Champions League Final and now he just bought Ronaldo! Now but £18 Fish and Chips in our chinese museum thing.
Ah yes, the People's Game.
Where, for the price of annual membership in a sports club where you actually get to *do* sport, you can buy a t-shirt, covered in advertising.
If you want an actual seat to see a game - get a mortgage.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
Then get vaccinated and you cease to be excluded.
We've all been excluded from society in the recent past. If there needs to be restrictions as a minority who've refused vaccines are overwhelming the NHS then those causing the problem are the only ones who should be excluded, nobody else.
Better to not require vaccine passports. But if they are required, then locking down the unvaccinated is infinitely better than locking down everybody.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
I’m not in favour of them (or any form of compulsion) but there is another point to consider here. Failure to get the vaccine imposes significant extra costs on everyone else. In terms of healthcare, restricted movement, types of clothing, venues available, it is a sizeable impact on the lives of people who have made a different choice.
So if you fail to get vaccinated (‘take a medical treatment’) you are increasing the chances of everyone else being excluded from society, which is what we had when nobody was vaccinated.
Isn’t it better that those who refuse to participate in a public health programme are excluded rather than everyone?
Like I say, not in favour of it - just as I am not in favour of compulsory mask wearing or compulsory vaccination - but it’s on the face of it a perfectly reasonable argument.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Checking I see that people registered for CC pre-July 2020 have their discount grandfathered in. Shouldn't this be you, or do you live in the 'burbs eg Zone 2 ?
I’m in the burbs
How can it cost you £20 each time you drive if you don't live in the CC zone? I live in zone 2 and in the ten years I've lived here I've never paid the CC, for the simple reason that I never drive into Central London. Get the bus!
The primary driving we do is to the Tower. Most other places we walk.
Are you a Beefeater? The Tower of London isn't exactly hard to reach by tube or bus. AIUI the congestion charge is specifically designed to discourage people from taking unnecessary car journeys, and so it sounds like your inconvenience is a feature not a bug. It simply wouldn't occur to me to drive into the CC zone from my home in zone 2.
It's a good example of the crap you post if nothing else ....
How? That tweet by Carrie Johnson and Gove's comment were utter nonsense. The EU did not stop us having higher standards. In fact the UK did have a tendency to gold plate EU regulations and then blame the EU for them.
The EU prevented us from failing below minimum standards, it did not prevent us from exceeding them so Gove was being entirely irrational (I suspect intentionally so for those to stupid to realise it).
That such a transparently obvious truth needs explaining shows why Brexit discussions are futile. People believe what they want to believe.
Carrie’s tweet wasn’t utter nonsense. Meaningless and with no predictive value, but accurate.
Leaving doesn’t mean we WILL do x In fact we CAN do y
You are being too literal, Charles.
The message was unambiguously that once free of the EU shackles the UK could finally introduce higher standards.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I am struggling to see any downsides of Covid passports to put against the four advantages I set out. The liberty argument doesn't work in my view. Surely the freedom not to be infected, get very ill and be treated for any disease, not just Covid, by a functioning healthcare system, trumps the freedom not to comply with a piece of bureaucracy.
You haven't spelled out what displacing infections into tomorrow gets us, other than possible higher severity. You keep banging on about the NHS collapsing but it isn't. Even they say it isn't, they're saying it could if the situation gets worse. It isn't getting worse, we've got no NPIs and this is as bad as it gets and every 1000 people who get infected today are ~950 who won't get infected in the future.
It's a good example of the crap you post if nothing else ....
How? That tweet by Carrie Johnson and Gove's comment were utter nonsense. The EU did not stop us having higher standards. In fact the UK did have a tendency to gold plate EU regulations and then blame the EU for them.
The EU prevented us from failing below minimum standards, it did not prevent us from exceeding them so Gove was being entirely irrational (I suspect intentionally so for those to stupid to realise it).
That such a transparently obvious truth needs explaining shows why Brexit discussions are futile. People believe what they want to believe.
Carrie’s tweet wasn’t utter nonsense. Meaningless and with no predictive value, but accurate.
Leaving doesn’t mean we WILL do x In fact we CAN do y
Yes very clever. Accurate but dancing on a pin head I feel.
Now using your phrasing how about this:
It does however mean we CAN do x (which we shouldn't) And we COULD ALWAYS do y but by say we CAN NOW (as Gove said) rather than just saying we CAN (as you post) implies that we COULDN'T before (which is a lie)
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
You are not. You are free to go to a concert, you just might have to show your vaccine passport, just like I am free to drive on the roads but I might have to show my driving licence, MOT certificate or insurance. No different.
I agree entirely. Vaccine passports and the like don't prevent people from doing things. They give you a choice of doing all those things provided that you agree to do one thing strongly recommended by all the medical advice out there.
You're only prevented from doing things if you fail to make the right choice.
And without vaccine passports, if you exercise your liberty to make the wrong choice under vaccine passports, you will also of course curtail others' liberty. Vaccinated but in many cases still vulnerable people who might wish to resume a normal life will in many cases continue to withdraw from society for fear of running into an unvaccinated numpty.
I'm pretty sure that, 2 centuries on, JS Mill would have seen the merits in vaccine passports.
Mark M Bathgate @m_bathgate · 56m A month after the initial move in prices higher - UK natural gas wholesale prices are still almost 500% higher than the average of the last 5 years. If this continues household prices could rise as much as 150%.
The word "if" is doing a lot of work here. UK natural gas futures for Dec-22 are only a bit over 100% above their average for the last 5 years - so the market is not currently pricing the current levels to be sustained, although of course what is priced is still a substantial increase.
Which in turn is because producers round the world are furiously turning on the taps.... But this takes time for LNG.
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Get an ebike
Not taking my kid cycling across central London
For the next 4 years you can get an e-car.
Indeed an extra car is one of Sadiq's Solutions on his website.
I'd expect cycling in London to continue to improve, though there are not enough segregated routes yet.
The first time I did it I forgot to unclip myself from my pedals at the traffic lights in Trafalgar Square.
No need to incur the capex when my old equipment works fine. It would result in a material increase in productivity.
Maybe, but who give a shit what Carrie Johnson thinks.
Well I don't either, but it is a statement of what Gove said and clearly what he said was either a deliberate lie or he is an idiot. I took it he was deliberately misleading and I prefer that it is that than he is an idiot.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
I don't giveca fuck what any political says. They are all liars. amazing how few people see this.amd expecially whoever happens to be the opposition. Opposition is to oppose even it its wrong.this
Let me get this right:
You support the Conservatives, even though you think they are a bunch of liars, because you perceive that the general public hasn't spotted that Labour are a bunch of liars also. Seems a strange reason for supporting a party.
And this is your main grievance with all this stuff. All your posts are about this.
So if people spot that Labour are a bunch of liars and ignore Conservative lies will you become a Labour supporter then? That seems to be the corollary of your gripe.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
Then get vaccinated and you cease to be excluded.
We've all been excluded from society in the recent past. If there needs to be restrictions as a minority who've refused vaccines are overwhelming the NHS then those causing the problem are the only ones who should be excluded, nobody else.
Better to not require vaccine passports. But if they are required, then locking down the unvaccinated is infinitely better than locking down everybody.
The government insisting you take a personal medical treatment is not something I am comfortable with. It up ends the power relationship between the state and the citizen
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Get an ebike
Not taking my kid cycling across central London
For the next 4 years you can get an e-car.
Indeed an extra car is one of Sadiq's Solutions on his website.
I'd expect cycling in London to continue to improve, though there are not enough segregated routes yet.
The first time I did it I forgot to unclip myself from my pedals at the traffic lights in Trafalgar Square.
Hmm, I got taken out at traffic lights in Trafalgar Square by someone next to me who forgot to unclip. Was it you?
This is three or four years back - I was on a Sadiq cycle so not clipped in. Didn't actually go right over, myself, happily.
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
Then get vaccinated and you cease to be excluded.
We've all been excluded from society in the recent past. If there needs to be restrictions as a minority who've refused vaccines are overwhelming the NHS then those causing the problem are the only ones who should be excluded, nobody else.
Better to not require vaccine passports. But if they are required, then locking down the unvaccinated is infinitely better than locking down everybody.
The government insisting you take a personal medical treatment is not something I am comfortable with. It up ends the power relationship between the state and the citizen
Its not insisting that you take the treatment, but it is making it harder for you to have fun etc if you don't...
Is anyone getting caught by Mayor Sadiq's latest ULEZ wheeze?
£12.50 per day for commuting from Wood Green, Walthamstow, Chiswick or Kew out of London if you have the wrong car. £3k a year for all the working days.
Hmmm.
The other interesting one is that afaik he has not yet restored the 90% discount on the CC for residents of the CC zone. That's an extra £13.50 a day for anyone living in most of Zone 1 and part of Zone 2 every time they use a car.
Electorally relevant? Who may this hurt?
Do those of you living there notice this?
Yes!
He’s also refused to roll back the weekend charge as he promised in the election.
It costs us £20 each time we drive
Checking I see that people registered for CC pre-July 2020 have their discount grandfathered in. Shouldn't this be you, or do you live in the 'burbs eg Zone 2 ?
I’m in the burbs
How can it cost you £20 each time you drive if you don't live in the CC zone? I live in zone 2 and in the ten years I've lived here I've never paid the CC, for the simple reason that I never drive into Central London. Get the bus!
The primary driving we do is to the Tower. Most other places we walk.
Are you a Beefeater? The Tower of London isn't exactly hard to reach by tube or bus. AIUI the congestion charge is specifically designed to discourage people from taking unnecessary car journeys, and so it sounds like your inconvenience is a feature not a bug. It simply wouldn't occur to me to drive into the CC zone from my home in zone 2.
To be fair, if you are not on the "right" tube lines for your destination, travel across London can be a pain.
For example, commuting into Paddington station.....
UK is paying for its governments not introducing proper Covid passports, I think. Potential benefits are (1) driving higher vaccination rates (2) keeping a proportion of infected people out of venues where the disease can easily be passed on (3) enforcing proper tracing if there is an outbreak (4) allowing venues to stay open if further restrictions are required.
Although not directly comparable, I note according to Our World in Data that hospital admissions are running about five times higher in the UK than France, Germany and Italy.
The UK is benefiting from the importance that its government puts on liberty
I'm struggling to think how this takes away your liberty. You don't need to show your passport, but if you don't you can't come in. It is your liberty to choose. I also don't have the liberty to drive on the right side of the road. Do you think I should have the liberty to do so without consequences. You are not allowed to because of the harm you may do to others.
You are not being prevented from driving to A to B.
You are being prevented from participating in normal life.
Nobody is being prevented from participating in normal life.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
Under the proposal, If you are no vaccinated then you can’t go to restaurants, venues, museums etc. You are excluded from society because the government has insisted that you take a medical treatment
If its still the NHS pass we are talking about, we can take a free LFT test. No medical treatment is required whatsoever, although vaccination does save time, and also saves lives.
Against it being mandatory but a lot of venues are already using it and it is fine.
Comments
Tested positive. Double jabbed.
I have been banging on for so long about how for double jabbed people Covid is just like the flu that it is about time I was able to put my money where my mouth is.
Day 2 update: it's just like the flu.
Don't you think such clear misrepresentations should be challenged?
But unlikely, I'm guessing.
They're just being asked to show their vaccine ID, which is bad enough and I oppose it on that ground, but lets not get carried away.
If only someone had warned that partnering up with that fourth rate university would be suboptimal for AstraZeneca.
Pfizer = Jürgen Klopp
Oxford AstraZeneca = Ole Gunnar Solskjær
I've currently lost my voice.
https://twitter.com/Metro_Sport/status/1452363535867158535
And get well soon!
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=317568
I didn't think anything, match game atmosphere wise, would top winning the Champions League or PL but yesterday surpassed it.
And with all the caveats that for some people it is serious, even when double-jabbed, etc, we must remember that we have to all intents and purposes relegated this to a not overwhelmingly serious illness.
The booster program in Germany is very slow at the moment, but I'm still more worried about the 3.2 million over 60s who haven't had a first dose yet (plus the 12.5 million 18-59 year olds). Most of these won't have immunity from prior infection either.
But then 5-0 at OT is an awesome result!
So maybe the time as come. If we have 5 million refusers then lets put the onus on them, not on everyone else.
BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Hundreds refused entry in vaccine passport 'chaos'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59034619
Loved every moment of it.
The bizarre thing is, everyone was nervous before kick off, no Mane, Matip, and Fabinho, Old Trafford is not the place to make your second appearance as a centre back.
https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1452297058392711169
If you’ve been wondering what’s happening in terms of variants, here’s a good thread to catch you up on AY4.2, a variant scientists are starting to take an interest in because it’s holding it’s own against delta and even increasing in frequency in UK
and
Worth pointing out that this is in line with what many scientists expected:
Delta arose independently of Alpha and replaced it.
But Delta is so transmissible that it seemed likely any new successful variant would evolve out of Delta.
AY.4.2 may be that variant
- eek again
It's worth remembering that all variants start in the UK because we are the people doing the most test to check for new mutations / variants
I really have missed going to live sporting events during the plague.
While here in the UK we've acted with a nonchalance of "OK don't get vaccinated if you don't want to, but you'll probably get Covid and may die"
Now the UK has had for a few months enough herd immunity to prevent exponential growth and the collapse of the NHS - as a result of the "natural immunity" antivaxxers and kids have developed, we're probably going to have enough herd immunity to see cases really start to fall.
Really looking forward to England v Australia on Saturday.
Fucking weirdo, is he from Norfolk or something?
Oldham.
You were the best in your row.
These things happen, but owners not best pleased.
Could we have banned force-fed Foie Gras whilst in the EU?
There may be other examples - there are a hell of a lot of derogations for individual EU countries from welfare standards.
It's the sarcasm/banter I missed a lot.
I swear the biggest cheer of the day from the Liverpool end was when the Ronaldo goal was ruled out by VAR.
We celebrated that louder any of our own goals.
He is a legend, not least for his champions league winning goal which I witnessed with my daughter and son in law in Barcelona, but sentiment must not come into cold business judgment
I would just say to all Liverpool supporters, you have a wonderful team and Salah is a magnificent footballer
There is a danger that this match is seen through the eyes of United's capitulation but that is not fair on Liverpool who seemed to relax after the 5th rather than increasing the score quite considerably.
Why do 2 or 3 not suffice?
I’m very happy the ICC moved the T20 World Cup from India, and that no-one seems to want to travel to watch it. There’s still tickets available for most matches.
Also got the Dubai Rugby 7s and the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in the bag, on consecutive weekends around my birthday - that’s going to be the post-pandemic party!
The final scoreline of a match doesn’t always tell the whole story. That has been one of the major themes of football analysis in recent years; the embracing of the ‘expected goals’ metric is, in part, because innovative thinkers realised that game results alone are ‘noisy’ and can sometimes be misleading.
But it’s not just about the underlying numbers. After all, look at the expected goals figures for Manchester United’s 5-0 loss to Liverpool on Sunday (3.44 to 1.50) and you might think they were unfortunate. Around 4-1 would have been more fitting.
But the xG numbers don’t account for the fact Liverpool stopped playing after getting their fifth on 50 minutes, not bothering to try to run up a historic scoreline. Tottenham Hotspur did the same last season in their own five-goal win at Old Trafford, or else United would surely have suffered a club-record defeat on both occasions.
The numbers don’t explain the extent to which United lost their heads, with Cristiano Ronaldo and Harry Maguire flirting with the possibility of a red card before Paul Pogba went over the top with a tackle that was more malicious than it was mistimed.
The numbers don’t fully show United’s complete lack of structure without possession, their approach to pressing being about individuals making pointless lone runs in an attempt to prove to us they’re working hard.
The numbers don’t show that one of Liverpool’s one-on-ones came from Marcus Rashford’s 60-yard through ball in behind his own defence for Mohamed Salah.
https://theathletic.com/2910208/2021/10/25/man-uniteds-5-0-defeat-was-one-of-the-biggest-embarrassments-in-the-premier-league-era-for-any-club/
What do they care about the results now? OGS is a Legend! Look, he scored the Winner in the Champions League Final and now he just bought Ronaldo! Now but £18 Fish and Chips in our chinese museum thing.
But it can only happen if sufficient money is directed at the replacement infrastructure required, rather than replacing legacy infrastructure with legacy technology (new coal plants, for example).
Much of the poorer parts of the world ought to be beneficiaries, since they are well located to benefit from renewables.
The problem is that fully committing to the transition worldwide is going to be painful for many in the first decade.
Oxford/AZ have produced a vaccine that is cheaper, non-profit, easier to administer around the world, and which AIUI is easier to produce. And they did so very, very rapidly. They deserve plaudits for it, not silly jokes.
Bat up, not down: if you really want to celebrate Cambridge in all this (albeit not directly the uni), then praise all the genomics work that's been centred on the city (or a few miles south). Truly world-beating.
Although I've come to accept the Dutch shunt (sic) is going to win the F1 title this year.
You're only prevented from doing things if you fail to make the right choice.
And without vaccine passports, if you exercise your liberty to make the wrong choice under vaccine passports, you will also of course curtail others' liberty. Vaccinated but in many cases still vulnerable people who might wish to resume a normal life will in many cases continue to withdraw from society for fear of running into an unvaccinated numpty.
I'm pretty sure that, 2 centuries on, JS Mill would have seen the merits in vaccine passports.
People eligible for the booster who have had the booster
People eligible for the the booster who want the booster but cannot get it
People eligible for the booster who don't want the booster (or at least not yet)
Because I know lots in the first group and none in the second.
But its the third group which is the interesting one and which is receiving no publicity.
As much as its fun to engage in schadenfreude banter, there but for grace go we ...
@m_bathgate
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56m
A month after the initial move in prices higher - UK natural gas wholesale prices are still almost 500% higher than the average of the last 5 years. If this continues household prices could rise as much as 150%.
Not that Hamilton has been much better.
Leaving doesn’t mean we WILL do x
In fact we CAN do y
Indeed an extra car is one of Sadiq's Solutions on his website.
I'd expect cycling in London to continue to improve, though there are not enough segregated routes yet.
The first time I did it I forgot to unclip myself from my pedals at the traffic lights in Trafalgar Square.
They beat India, the best team in the world, easily. Although Kohli batted for nearly all the India innings, they could still only muster 151. And then Pakistan knocked off the runs without losing a wicket. It was a massacre. India are tougher opponents than Man U.
Where, for the price of annual membership in a sports club where you actually get to *do* sport, you can buy a t-shirt, covered in advertising.
If you want an actual seat to see a game - get a mortgage.
https://www.ft.com/3lJQa6w
worth a quick giggle.
We've all been excluded from society in the recent past. If there needs to be restrictions as a minority who've refused vaccines are overwhelming the NHS then those causing the problem are the only ones who should be excluded, nobody else.
Better to not require vaccine passports. But if they are required, then locking down the unvaccinated is infinitely better than locking down everybody.
So if you fail to get vaccinated (‘take a medical treatment’) you are increasing the chances of everyone else being excluded from society, which is what we had when nobody was vaccinated.
Isn’t it better that those who refuse to participate in a public health programme are excluded rather than everyone?
Like I say, not in favour of it - just as I am not in favour of compulsory mask wearing or compulsory vaccination - but it’s on the face of it a perfectly reasonable argument.
The Tower of London isn't exactly hard to reach by tube or bus. AIUI the congestion charge is specifically designed to discourage people from taking unnecessary car journeys, and so it sounds like your inconvenience is a feature not a bug. It simply wouldn't occur to me to drive into the CC zone from my home in zone 2.
The message was unambiguously that once free of the EU shackles the UK could finally introduce higher standards.
Masks, working from home, etc.
Now using your phrasing how about this:
It does however mean we CAN do x (which we shouldn't)
And we COULD ALWAYS do y but by say we CAN NOW (as Gove said) rather than just saying we CAN (as you post) implies that we COULDN'T before (which is a lie)
You support the Conservatives, even though you think they are a bunch of liars, because you perceive that the general public hasn't spotted that Labour are a bunch of liars also. Seems a strange reason for supporting a party.
And this is your main grievance with all this stuff. All your posts are about this.
So if people spot that Labour are a bunch of liars and ignore Conservative lies will you become a Labour supporter then? That seems to be the corollary of your gripe.
This is three or four years back - I was on a Sadiq cycle so not clipped in. Didn't actually go right over, myself, happily.
For example, commuting into Paddington station.....
Against it being mandatory but a lot of venues are already using it and it is fine.