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Vote Green, Go Blue? – politicalbetting.com

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    Good news if accurate, alternatively it could be bad news Tuesday.
    Indeed it could. Too early to say. But, I do hope those who were calling for more restrictions will concede if it does turn out to be a turning point.
    It is too early to say. But it's worth pointing out that many of us have said that numbers on previous days that we were expecting a peak - and indeed that it's hard to see how the opposite conclusion was being drawn by 'scientists'. It was clear some regions had already peaked and were on the way down.
    It may turn out to be illusory. But based on a context free reading of the data, this is exactly what one would expect. You'd need some special insight to expect it to continue to climb.
  • KEITA! ⚽
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Alistair said:

    5000 less cases week on week. About 2000 of that fall is the South West alone.

    Come on Alistair, you are smarter than that - “5000 less”??
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MrEd said:

    UK cases
    39,962 today
    45,140 last Sunday

    England cases
    33,221 today
    38,543 last Sunday

    If that's a half term effect its both large and quick.

    Looks like Starmer might have jumped on the more restrictions bus just when cases had peaked.

    Starmer getting it wrong? Jesus, who would have thought that?
    Labour don’t even appear to say what they mean by “Plan B”. I think it’s a pick and mix of the Govt’s (masks, WFH but not vaccine passports)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

    Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

    So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

    Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

    The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.
    Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.
    Where do we draw the line with "every avoidable death" is regrettable?

    Everyone who dies from diabetes having been obese?

    Everyone who dies from cancer having smoked?

    Everyone who dies from cirrhosis having drank?

    Everyone who dies from Covid19 having refused a vaccine?

    Everyone who dies from an accident having gotten behind the wheel?

    Where do you draw the line? Avoidable deaths happen, they're a risk people take whenever they make choices.
    You get cancer even if you have never smoked so up to your usual Tory standards
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

    If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie
    They won't though, they'll just move swiftly onto another line as to why we should lock down.

    Never admit they're wrong. Never concede. That's how they operate.
    It's understandable, if regrettable. There is a lot of funding dependent on civud keeping going on. There are a lot of egos who will suddenly be deprived of attention if it stops. There are a lot of people with an interest in ramping up fear. There are a lot if people with personal stakes in keeping the covid interest going.
    Many public sector or charity lobbies run like this, of course. But most do little worse than quietly leech away at public funds. Few are actively out to make people's lives a misery.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Re: today’s numbers - the doomsayers will revert to talking about “hospitalisation” and deaths for a week or so (which will continue to rise for a bit as a lagging effect) in the hope that the case numbers rise again
  • malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

    Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

    So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

    Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

    The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.
    Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.
    Where do we draw the line with "every avoidable death" is regrettable?

    Everyone who dies from diabetes having been obese?

    Everyone who dies from cancer having smoked?

    Everyone who dies from cirrhosis having drank?

    Everyone who dies from Covid19 having refused a vaccine?

    Everyone who dies from an accident having gotten behind the wheel?

    Where do you draw the line? Avoidable deaths happen, they're a risk people take whenever they make choices.
    You get cancer even if you have never smoked so up to your usual Tory standards
    Yes you can die from cancer (even lung cancer) even if you've never smoked.
    And you can die from respiratory illnesses even if you don't catch Covid.

    Doesn't mean that smoking doesn't cause "avoidable" deaths due to cancer though does it? 🤦‍♂️
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

    Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

    So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

    Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

    The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.
    Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.
    Where do we draw the line with "every avoidable death" is regrettable?

    Everyone who dies from diabetes having been obese?

    Everyone who dies from cancer having smoked?

    Everyone who dies from cirrhosis having drank?

    Everyone who dies from Covid19 having refused a vaccine?

    Everyone who dies from an accident having gotten behind the wheel?

    Where do you draw the line? Avoidable deaths happen, they're a risk people take whenever they make choices.
    You get cancer even if you have never smoked so up to your usual Tory standards
    He said everyone who died of cancer having smoked, not everyone who died of cancer.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

    Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

    What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

    But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.
    Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

    Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

    A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.
    It's not just half term though. Greater Manchester, for example, has seen steady falls for a couple of weeks yet the schools didn't break up until Friday.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

    They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

    Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

    I think they probably get lots more votes by seeming to be a politically neutral party who care about the environment than if most people saw them as far-left, though they're also now picking up some serious left-wingers who actually read party programmes.
    Interesting that you think such an approach would be a vote winner. The default assumption is that they need a broad policy platform to broaden their appeal.

    If I was an ecologist in the Green Party I would be very concerned about lefty entryists trying to move the party even further from the environment and more towards Marx.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    5000 less cases week on week. About 2000 of that fall is the South West alone.

    Come on Alistair, you are smarter than that - “5000 less”??
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_versus_less

    If it is good enough for Alfred the Great then it is good enough for me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited October 2021
    That was comedy fielding from Pakistan. Four overthrows after a free hit.
  • Sandpit said:

    That was comedy fielding from Pakistan. Four overthrows.

    Comedy defending from Manchester United. Man Utd 0 - 2 Liverpool
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    I wonder if people aren’t being quite so honest about COVID to avoid missing out on their holibobs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    That was comedy fielding from Pakistan. Four overthrows.

    Comedy defending from Manchester United. Man Utd 0 - 2 Liverpool
    Awesome! I’m trying to follow cricket, football and motor racing all at the same time, as well as two blogs…
  • Farooq said:

    My bet on United winning 4-2 is looking... well... on life support.

    To be fair, you're a third of the way there. 😂😂😂
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,227
    Cookie said:

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

    Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

    What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

    But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.
    Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

    Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

    A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.
    It's not just half term though. Greater Manchester, for example, has seen steady falls for a couple of weeks yet the schools didn't break up until Friday.
    Running the numbers now, but there is a clear decrease in R across the board, at LTLA level, from yesterday.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,790

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    Indy SAGE crying into their beers tonight.

    We've still got to wait a bit longer to know for sure. What's a known factor is that we've been very close to the herd immunity threshold for a while, the whole "run this thing hot before winter" idea was and remains correct.

    I fear for countries that haven't done what we did over the summer and let the virus find vaccine refusers before the bad flu season we're due.

    If we are on that path (and the evidence for it is definitely growing) then that delay from June to July may look a lot worse in hindsight as we'd be 4 weeks further down the path towards vaccine+natural herd immunity.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,227
    ydoethur said:

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

    If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie
    Bodies do not need sustenance and when have our nationalcommentators ever eaten humble pie?

    iSage is a bit like Ambrose Evans-Pritchard - having predicted 4,565,234 of the last 1 economic crises, he thinks he is a sage for the ages....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    Scott_xP said:
    So a vote to keep the law unamended as its been for many years?

    How is this "news"? Or Brexit related?
    Thought as much.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    My bet on United winning 4-2 is looking... well... on life support.

    To be fair, you're a third of the way there. 😂😂😂
    Perhaps... I don't think I'm seeing that money again. Think of the things I could have done with that tenner instead of wasting it on OGS's ability to organise a midfield.
    Like contribute to the fund for OGS to fail to organise a piss-up in a brewery?

    But don't worry, he's at the wheel.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Cookie said:

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

    Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

    What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

    But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.
    Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

    Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

    A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.
    It's not just half term though. Greater Manchester, for example, has seen steady falls for a couple of weeks yet the schools didn't break up until Friday.
    Both Glasgow nd Edinburgh have beem on a steady fall for over a monyh. When Glasgow's half term started their fall rate increased but Edinburgh, still in schpol, reversed and staryed o icreasing. And now Edinburgh (on half term for last week) has ceased its rise.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

    Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

    What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

    But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.
    Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

    Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

    A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.
    Only look at England numbers. The other countries are all over the place in the consistency of their reporting (rise in deaths on last Sunday for example is because Scotland have gone from 2 to 21)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,131
    edited October 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pant’s out!

    Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".
    Was going to edit to “Pant’s off”.
    If you’d done that you would have been kilt
    Pants Display seems to be a Thing in table tennis. No idea why.

    (English "Pants" not Americanish "Pants")

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705774/Now-s-pants-celebration-Scottish-table-tennis-player-s-huge-reaction-winning-point-Commonwealth-Games-match.html

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pant’s out!

    Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".
    Was going to edit to “Pant’s off”.
    If you’d done that you would have been kilt
    Pants Display seems to be a Thing in table tennis. No idea why.

    (English "Pants" not Americanish "Pants")

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705774/Now-s-pants-celebration-Scottish-table-tennis-player-s-huge-reaction-winning-point-Commonwealth-Games-match.html

    Some ginger thing.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    Indy SAGE crying into their beers tonight.

    We've still got to wait a bit longer to know for sure. What's a known factor is that we've been very close to the herd immunity threshold for a while, the whole "run this thing hot before winter" idea was and remains correct.

    I fear for countries that haven't done what we did over the summer and let the virus find vaccine refusers before the bad flu season we're due.

    If we are on that path (and the evidence for it is definitely growing) then that delay from June to July may look a lot worse in hindsight as we'd be 4 weeks further down the path towards vaccine+natural herd immunity.
    This is one of the problems. Because the Govt couldn’t explicitly articulate the “maximise infection before winter hits” for fear of the political blowback, you have well meaning public heath directors all over the country potentially undermining the policy by instigating new local measures to prevent spread (eg. advice to re form school bubbles etc). Arguably all this is doing is slowing the spread in a counter productive way (particularly where schools are involved).
  • RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

    Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

    So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

    Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

    The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.
    Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.
    Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.
    They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.
    There were also significantly less "other" serious winter ailment like flu pressurising the NHS, because we were working from home or locked in isolation.

    I am not advocating the latter, but surely the likes of RobD have to acknowledge, as Philip Thompson does, in order to keep masks off and workers commuting to the office the price is quite likely to be greater stress on the NHS. Now Philip accepts that is a price worth paying, whereas RobD claims move along, nothing to see. Now RobD may be correct. That certainly looks to be the near future that Johnson and Sunak are banking on.
    Just for the avoidance of any doubt I don't think mask mandates would meaningfully reduce cases (I think social distancing would).

    But I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, even if mask mandates would reduce cases that's not a price worth paying.

    Furthermore I'm also of the opinion that [in the summer and autumn] reducing cases post-vaccines due to artificial restrictions is a bad thing, not a good thing. There is a seasonality to Covid like there is for flu, so the more "natural immunity" achieved now amongst antivaxxers the better placed we'll be in the winter when it'll matter most.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,131
    Omnium said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pant’s out!

    Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".
    Was going to edit to “Pant’s off”.
    If you’d done that you would have been kilt
    Pants Display seems to be a Thing in table tennis. No idea why.

    (English "Pants" not Americanish "Pants")

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705774/Now-s-pants-celebration-Scottish-table-tennis-player-s-huge-reaction-winning-point-Commonwealth-Games-match.html

    Some ginger thing.
    It seems also to be a Chinese thing. Not many gingers in China.

    I deny all further knowledge.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    My bet on United winning 4-2 is looking... well... on life support.

    To be fair, you're a third of the way there. 😂😂😂
    Perhaps... I don't think I'm seeing that money again. Think of the things I could have done with that tenner instead of wasting it on OGS's ability to organise a midfield.
    Like contribute to the fund for OGS to fail to organise a piss-up in a brewery?

    But don't worry, he's at the wheel.
    Oh I'm not worried. Please don't think for a moment I'm a Man U fan.
    hmmm, I can still cash out for half my stake... this isn't dead and buried just yet
    Too late...
  • SALAH!!! ⚽⚽⚽

    MAN UTD 0 - 3 LIV

    10 GAMES IN A ROW FOR SALAH! 🐐


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    Time for OGS to go I think.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,131
    edited October 2021
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So a vote to keep the law unamended as its been for many years?

    How is this "news"? Or Brexit related?
    Thought as much.
    The London Economic is quite an "interesting" source.
  • Time for OGS to go I think.

    I think a few Man Utd managers have been sacked after losing to Liverpool? From memory van Gaal and/or Mourinho?

    Could OGS join that list? Getting hammered at Old Trafford must make it even worse.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

    Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

    What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

    But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.
    Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

    Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

    A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.
    Only look at England numbers. The other countries are all over the place in the consistency of their reporting (rise in deaths on last Sunday for example is because Scotland have gone from 2 to 21)
    There was a reporting delay fir Scotland deaths yesterday. Normaly scotland reports 0 (or close to) deaths on Sundays.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,768
    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

    This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

    "But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

    Only in Guardian-world, does levelling up mean extra benefits - as opposed to investment in infrastructure, and encouragement of private sector job creation and training.
    Only in Tory-world, does levelling up mean making the poor poorer.
    Read the article, it's about a whole lot more than benefits.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,790
    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

    We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

    Indy SAGE crying into their beers tonight.

    We've still got to wait a bit longer to know for sure. What's a known factor is that we've been very close to the herd immunity threshold for a while, the whole "run this thing hot before winter" idea was and remains correct.

    I fear for countries that haven't done what we did over the summer and let the virus find vaccine refusers before the bad flu season we're due.

    If we are on that path (and the evidence for it is definitely growing) then that delay from June to July may look a lot worse in hindsight as we'd be 4 weeks further down the path towards vaccine+natural herd immunity.
    This is one of the problems. Because the Govt couldn’t explicitly articulate the “maximise infection before winter hits” for fear of the political blowback, you have well meaning public heath directors all over the country potentially undermining the policy by instigating new local measures to prevent spread (eg. advice to re form school bubbles etc). Arguably all this is doing is slowing the spread in a counter productive way (particularly where schools are involved).
    Yeah that's probably true. I think the strategy is basically the opposite of the liberal western consensus too which is to keep using NPIs to keep case levels down as part of some dick waving contest about having lower cases than some other countries.

    I really do think when we do the post mortem on this the strategy will be condemned as heartless but we really will be on the other side of it while loads of other countries will still be wearing masks everywhere, still not have everything at full capacity and still be using vaccine passports to go for a coffee.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    The paradox of the Greens is the left equivalent of the paradox of Ukip/ Brexit style parties. A good number of people are prepared to vote for them unless and until they reach the point where they might have more than an indirect influence on government and policy.

    It's all very well to let Farage and co influence exactly one policy - Brexit. But people won't vote for them to run stuff. Same with the Greens. Good to vote for recycling and fewer cars for other people and all that. But their policy of leaving NATO is not something we are going to take chances with.

    BTW, I suspect like Corbynistas, the Greens don't actually want direct power. They might have to put into practice what they say they want to do. That is not, I think, their aim or intention.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    VAR is a complete waste of time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited October 2021

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

    This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

    "But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

    Only in Guardian-world, does levelling up mean extra benefits - as opposed to investment in infrastructure, and encouragement of private sector job creation and training.
    Only in Tory-world, does levelling up mean making the poor poorer.
    Read the article, it's about a whole lot more than benefits.
    It means creating better opportunities for people to improve themselves, rather than keeping the poor reliant on benefits.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,768
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

    This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

    "But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

    Only in Guardian-world, does levelling up mean extra benefits - as opposed to investment in infrastructure, and encouragement of private sector job creation and training.
    Only in Tory-world, does levelling up mean making the poor poorer.
    Read the article, it's about a whole lot more than benefits.
    It means creating better opportunities for people to improve themselves, rather than keeping the poor reliant on benefits.
    Like I said, read the article. It's not just about benefits (although, it's hard to better yourself when you can't afford shoes).
  • SALAH! FOUR!!!

    I did a silly 251/1 punt using a free bet I had on 2+ Liverpool goals per half, 3+ Liverpool corners per half and 2+ United cards per half. Amusingly despite the four goals that bets going to be a loser at half-time because of the lack of Liverpool corners. Not enough United defending so the balls been going into the net instead of behind for a corner. 😂
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    LOL 0-4 :D
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited October 2021
    Manchester United have provoked a number of emotions over the years. This is the first time I’ve ever pitied them.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

    Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

    So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

    Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

    The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.
    Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.
    Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.
    They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.
    There were also significantly less "other" serious winter ailment like flu pressurising the NHS, because we were working from home or locked in isolation.

    I am not advocating the latter, but surely the likes of RobD have to acknowledge, as Philip Thompson does, in order to keep masks off and workers commuting to the office the price is quite likely to be greater stress on the NHS. Now Philip accepts that is a price worth paying, whereas RobD claims move along, nothing to see. Now RobD may be correct. That certainly looks to be the near future that Johnson and Sunak are banking on.
    Just for the avoidance of any doubt I don't think mask mandates would meaningfully reduce cases (I think social distancing would).

    But I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, even if mask mandates would reduce cases that's not a price worth paying.

    Furthermore I'm also of the opinion that [in the summer and autumn] reducing cases post-vaccines due to artificial restrictions is a bad thing, not a good thing. There is a seasonality to Covid like there is for flu, so the more "natural immunity" achieved now amongst antivaxxers the better placed we'll be in the winter when it'll matter most.
    The main issue is the great inefficiancy of the NHS. As such the cost of numbers beyond the capacity are fantastically expensive. We should get much better for our money, and those in the NHS should enjoy far better for their efforts.

    Around GBP180bn in cost and 1.1m staff. 0.4m being medics (36%). So about 450k per annum per person you want to spend money on.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    DougSeal said:

    Manchester United have provoked a number of emotions over the years. This is the first time I’ve ever pitied them.

    Not for me, I cannot pity any side with that financial clout. Problem with supporting a small local team.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,364
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    The paradox of the Greens is the left equivalent of the paradox of Ukip/ Brexit style parties. A good number of people are prepared to vote for them unless and until they reach the point where they might have more than an indirect influence on government and policy.

    It's all very well to let Farage and co influence exactly one policy - Brexit. But people won't vote for them to run stuff. Same with the Greens. Good to vote for recycling and fewer cars for other people and all that. But their policy of leaving NATO is not something we are going to take chances with.

    BTW, I suspect like Corbynistas, the Greens don't actually want direct power. They might have to put into practice what they say they want to do. That is not, I think, their aim or intention.

    Quite a few Conservatives and other right wingers a few weeks ago saying we should leave NATO
    Instead joining a new organisation called NOTA?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Manchester United have provoked a number of emotions over the years. This is the first time I’ve ever pitied them.

    Not for me, I cannot pity any side with that financial clout. Problem with supporting a small local team.
    I support Ipswich mate. This is how bad ManU are.
  • As a United supporter for 63 years and a a previous season ticket holder I have to say that first half display was utterly shocking and embarrassing

    I would compliment Liverpool for their performance and deserve to be well in the lead and play inspirational football

    And to those who know the rivalry between the two teams, it is very hard to say that but it is fair and true

    Ole's time is up
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Pakistan coming out fighting - 38/0 after 5 ovs.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
      
    tlg86 said:

    Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

    The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

    My mum got her booster and flu jab today. Interestingly my dad - who had his second jab around the same time - has heard nothing. I reckon it’s because they have different GPs and his aren’t very good.
    That happened to us. I got my booster yesterday (Moderna) and feel rather under the weather today (sore arm, headache, lethargy). But my wife, who is older than me, has not received an invitation. The fact that she cancelled an invitation to travel some 20 miles for a flu vaccination, which we had at a local pharmacy instead, seems to have erased the health service's willingness to offer her a Covid booster.

  • Looking at Wikipedia it seems the record for largest victory in this fixture is Liverpool 7 - 1 Newton Heath back in the 19th century.

    Could we come close to that today?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    geoffw said:

      

    tlg86 said:

    Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

    The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

    My mum got her booster and flu jab today. Interestingly my dad - who had his second jab around the same time - has heard nothing. I reckon it’s because they have different GPs and his aren’t very good.
    That happened to us. I got my booster yesterday (Moderna) and feel rather under the weather today (sore arm, headache, lethargy). But my wife, who is older than me, has not received an invitation. The fact that she cancelled an invitation to travel some 20 miles for a flu vaccination, which we had at a local pharmacy instead, seems to have erased the health service's willingness to offer her a Covid booster.

    Call them on 119 to book an appointment.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Looking at Wikipedia it seems the record for largest victory in this fixture is Liverpool 7 - 1 Newton Heath back in the 19th century.

    Could we come close to that today?

    Every season I pray that Ipswich’s unwanted 9-0 record is superseded. Won’t happen today but one can only hope.

    (what really pisses me off about it is that we beat Man U 6-0 in March 1980 and missed three penalties while doing it. But no one remembers that…)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    DougSeal said:

    Looking at Wikipedia it seems the record for largest victory in this fixture is Liverpool 7 - 1 Newton Heath back in the 19th century.

    Could we come close to that today?

    Every season I pray that Ipswich’s unwanted 9-0 record is superseded. Won’t happen today but one can only hope.

    (what really pisses me off about it is that we beat Man U 6-0 in March 1980 and missed three penalties while doing it. But no one remembers that…)
    But you are the last side to win at Old Trafford in the league when losing at half time.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    Sajid Javid will be delighted at the decline in Covid cases today, after warning at his press conference last week that cases could well reach 100,000 a day. I guess he was scaremongering as well, along with iSage, lockdown advocates, and Starmer.
  • tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Looking at Wikipedia it seems the record for largest victory in this fixture is Liverpool 7 - 1 Newton Heath back in the 19th century.

    Could we come close to that today?

    Every season I pray that Ipswich’s unwanted 9-0 record is superseded. Won’t happen today but one can only hope.

    (what really pisses me off about it is that we beat Man U 6-0 in March 1980 and missed three penalties while doing it. But no one remembers that…)
    But you are the last side to win at Old Trafford in the league when losing at half time.
    Its an impressive record, but in recent years the home team have maintained it by not winning at half time like today.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

      

    tlg86 said:

    Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

    The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

    My mum got her booster and flu jab today. Interestingly my dad - who had his second jab around the same time - has heard nothing. I reckon it’s because they have different GPs and his aren’t very good.
    That happened to us. I got my booster yesterday (Moderna) and feel rather under the weather today (sore arm, headache, lethargy). But my wife, who is older than me, has not received an invitation. The fact that she cancelled an invitation to travel some 20 miles for a flu vaccination, which we had at a local pharmacy instead, seems to have erased the health service's willingness to offer her a Covid booster.

    Call them on 119 to book an appointment.
    Thanks for the advice. In fact a neighbour with mysterious connections to the NHS powers that be gave her a telephone number which wasn't on any website that we could see and she now has an appointment in a week's time.
  • As a United supporter for 63 years and a a previous season ticket holder I have to say that first half display was utterly shocking and embarrassing

    I would compliment Liverpool for their performance and deserve to be well in the lead and play inspirational football

    And to those who know the rivalry between the two teams, it is very hard to say that but it is fair and true

    Ole's time is up

    Steve Bruce is available

    And it's 5
  • Salah hat-trick. That makes it five!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Now available from Riverford:

    "A generous round of smooth, creamy Cotswold brie, made by artisan organic cheesemakers..."

    We can all sleep soundly, comforted by that news.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Looking at Wikipedia it seems the record for largest victory in this fixture is Liverpool 7 - 1 Newton Heath back in the 19th century.

    Could we come close to that today?

    Every season I pray that Ipswich’s unwanted 9-0 record is superseded. Won’t happen today but one can only hope.

    (what really pisses me off about it is that we beat Man U 6-0 in March 1980 and missed three penalties while doing it. But no one remembers that…)
    But you are the last side to win at Old Trafford in the league when losing at half time.
    Ah, Mich d'Avray…genuinely surprised we still have that record
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Congratulations to Jamie Chadwick, defending her W-Series title with a win at the last race of the season in the USA.

    Star of the weekend, another young British lady (born in 2003!) by the name of Abbi Pulling, with a pole position and a podium finish in only her third race in the series.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    It’s gonna be 6-5. You heard it here first.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    MO SALAH!!!!! ⚽️ ⚽️ ⚽️
  • Now I nearly feel sorry for United. Ronaldo with a wonder kick for a consolation, VAR shows its offside.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    DougSeal said:

    It’s gonna be 6-5. You heard it here first.

    Okay 5-5
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    DougSeal said:

    It’s gonna be 6-5. You heard it here first.

    Hubris is great. Years ago, in the nineties I went with Swindon to Wrexham. It was a title winning season, and we were playing superbly. 2-0 up in 15 mins. The joy. We lost 4-3...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,178
    What a spanking.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    Pulpstar said:

    What a spanking.

    Footballs pretty good too...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    eek said:

    This is a poster at a Tesco depot at the moment for HGV delivery drivers.

    image

    Also unloading times are currently 3-4 hours...

    https://twitter.com/Booneyboone/status/1452289876574052358

    The biggest problem with deliveries isn't the drivers it's the appalling treatment of the drivers by some end customers.

    A driver on a call in to Jeremy vine was saying that at many delivery centres they are not even allowed to use the bathroom

    Can’t blame them for leaving.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    This is a poster at a Tesco depot at the moment for HGV delivery drivers.

    image

    Also unloading times are currently 3-4 hours...

    https://twitter.com/Booneyboone/status/1452289876574052358

    The biggest problem with deliveries isn't the drivers it's the appalling treatment of the drivers by some end customers.

    A driver on a call in to Jeremy vine was saying that at many delivery centres they are not even allowed to use the bathroom

    Can’t blame them for leaving.
    Literally pissed off.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,364
    eek said:

    This is a poster at a Tesco depot at the moment for HGV delivery drivers.

    image

    Also unloading times are currently 3-4 hours...

    https://twitter.com/Booneyboone/status/1452289876574052358

    The biggest problem with deliveries isn't the drivers it's the appalling treatment of the drivers by some end customers.

    I think if I were Tesco I would very quickly be on the phone explaining there’s surplus of managers and stupid ones therefore need not be retained…
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    This could be a red…
  • DougSeal said:

    This could be a red…

    It is
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Sajid Javid will be delighted at the decline in Covid cases today, after warning at his press conference last week that cases could well reach 100,000 a day. I guess he was scaremongering as well, along with iSage, lockdown advocates, and Starmer.

    Of course he was. He was setting a deliberately high bar (which he knew would likely never be approached) for the introduction of restrictions as a means of being able to resist pressure for introducing any restrictions.
  • Pogba red card via VAR. Well deserved red card.

    It looks like my joke bet is going to fail by only the skin of its teeth. £10 at 250/1 that Liverpool get 2+ goals per half, 3+ corners per half, and Man Utd 2+ cards per half. Man Utd have the 4 cards now, it looks like the lack of the ball being hit back for a corner in the first half may have cost me £2,500 !! 😱😱
  • DougSeal said:

    This could be a red…

    It is
    It sums up the day and the buck stops at the manager
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    5-0 down at home to your arch-rival, what could possibly go wrong.

    Oh, a red card!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Last time I saw a red as obvious as that at Old Trafford was Ben Flower in the Rugby League Grand Final in 2014
  • Keita being stretchered off. Hope he's OK and not badly hurt. VAR very justified there to give the red card.
  • DougSeal said:

    Last time I saw a red as obvious as that at Old Trafford was Ben Flower in the Rugby League Grand Final in 2014

    If this was boxing it would be stopped
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Pakistan need 72 from 54, still with all ten wickets.

    Should be an easy win for the chasing team.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,178
    I'm not watching, but Man U have a big problem now, their best player with the ball doesn't do his share of pressing off the ball.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Keita being stretchered off. Hope he's OK and not badly hurt. VAR very justified there to give the red card.

    Same here. Bad challenge.

    However, have to say, this is such a great day. United getting absolutely pulverised. The only sadness will be that Ole has to go post this.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Last time I saw a red as obvious as that at Old Trafford was Ben Flower in the Rugby League Grand Final in 2014

    If this was boxing it would be stopped
    TBF I think boxing was what Ben Flower thought he was doing
  • The crowds deserting Old Trafford says it all

    Ole lost the supporters
  • alex_ said:

    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.

    The only person having a worse day than OGS is Devi Sridhar.
  • alex_ said:

    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.

    The only person having a worse day than OGS is Devi Sridhar.
    And I am not even sure of that
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837
    alex_ said:

    Sajid Javid will be delighted at the decline in Covid cases today, after warning at his press conference last week that cases could well reach 100,000 a day. I guess he was scaremongering as well, along with iSage, lockdown advocates, and Starmer.

    Of course he was. He was setting a deliberately high bar (which he knew would likely never be approached) for the introduction of restrictions as a means of being able to resist pressure for introducing any restrictions.
    Well, we shall have to see what happens as November drags on and the lockdown screaming from all the usual suspects keeps getting louder. But if Javid does succeed in checkmating the ISAGE tendency then you can slash his odds for the Tory succession.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393

    Keita being stretchered off. Hope he's OK and not badly hurt. VAR very justified there to give the red card.

    I’m not a fan of the severity of an injury affecting whether it is a red or yellow card. Sometimes injuries are unlucky. But that was shocking from Pogba. If I were OGS I’d quit tonight, live on tv. Leicester showed what could happen, putting four past them. The only reason this won’t be embarrassing is if Liverpool settle.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708

    alex_ said:

    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.

    The only person having a worse day than OGS is Devi Sridhar.
    Had she made a prediction?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,364
    Sandpit said:

    Pakistan need 72 from 54, still with all ten wickets.

    Should be an easy win for the chasing team.

    Certainly India need something special to turn it round. They could do it, but don’t look like it.

    Stunningly beautiful stadium, a real feat of modern architecture.

    Shame about the pitch which is so slow.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    alex_ said:

    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.

    Let's see what this week and beyond brings, we have had fluctuations before with figures both up and down, we need more data to see if we are heading in a positive direction or not.

    Some people on here months ago said we 'peaked' and that was proven not to be the case. I don't think we know anything concrete yet.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,393
    Farooq said:

    39,000 cases is not the good news some people think it is.
    Covidton window in action here.

    #directionoftravel
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,364

    alex_ said:

    Deathly silence in the media about today's Covid numbers. Doesn't really fit very well with all their headlines from this morning. Guardian appear to have even taken the extreme step of dropping their Covid tracker from their front page.

    The only person having a worse day than OGS is Devi Sridhar.
    Varun Chakravarthy might disagree.

    And we haven’t even had Verstappen’s latest crash yet.
This discussion has been closed.