Vote Green, Go Blue? – politicalbetting.com

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Vote Green, Go Blue? – politicalbetting.com

Green members told us recently they don't want to be seen as a single issue party. But results show that Brits overwhelmingly think they care more about the environment than all other issues (although those most likely to vote Green are more split) https://t.co/BPebOd6fUg pic.twitter.com/QCPYT6YfAV

Read the full story here

another_richard

I'd be interested in which demographics trust the Greens - the urban young, hard leftists or Waitrose belt nimbys might for various differing reasons.

Stark_Dawning

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

FF43

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

another_richard

Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

SandyRentool

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

tlg86

another_richard said:

Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

My mum got her booster and flu jab today. Interestingly my dad - who had his second jab around the same time - has heard nothing. I reckon it’s because they have different GPs and his aren’t very good.

MattW

8th.

IMO the public is evidently rather gullible, trusting the Greens.

another_richard

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Ultimately we run out of anti-vaxxers to infect.

But if we don't then those who oppose modern medicine and prefer 'natural immunity' go to the natural immunity hospitals.

Leaving the modern medicine hospitals for the 90%.

Philip_Thompson

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Listening to Scott on Brexit is like listening to Piers Corbyn on Covid.

RobD

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

Philip_Thompson

another_richard said:

Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

One issue I wonder whether it could be a meaningful factor is younger health care workers who got their first two doses early (due to working in care or the NHS) but are no loner health care workers (because they no longer work in care or the NHS). They'd be showing up in the figures for those who got vaccinated, but ineligible to get a booster now as they'd no longer meet the criteria.

Similarly for the very elderly there must be a fair few who got vaccinated over 6 months ago who have subsequently died. I'd estimate a quarter to a third of a million might apply here?

Are these accounted for in looking at the percentage of people taking up their boosters?

Philip_Thompson

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

williamglenn

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Carnyx

Afternoon all. Full marks to TSE for spotting that there are greens and greens.

That issue of being a green Unionist is a good one, though the implicit colour scheme sounds self-contradictory in a country where the most Unionist area apocryphally has the green part of the traffic lights regularly smashed. More seriously, it may explain Mr Starmer's seeking of the greeny vote when he was up here in Scotland a few months back (you see, the colour schemes get really confusing in traffic light mode).

PS Or indeed fruit colour schemes, as Mr Rentoul pointed out earlier.

another_richard

Philip_Thompson said:

another_richard said:

Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

One issue I wonder whether it could be a meaningful factor is younger health care workers who got their first two doses early (due to working in care or the NHS) but are no loner health care workers (because they no longer work in care or the NHS). They'd be showing up in the figures for those who got vaccinated, but ineligible to get a booster now as they'd no longer meet the criteria.

Similarly for the very elderly there must be a fair few who got vaccinated over 6 months ago who have subsequently died. I'd estimate a quarter to a third of a million might apply here?

Are these accounted for in looking at the percentage of people taking up their boosters?

No, its only a basic calculation of then and now.

There's unfortunately limited data on who is getting the booster vaccinations.

I'd also allow for the number of people who have been infected since their second vaccination who might not think a booster is worth having or at least not yet.

And there might be others in employment who are relaxed about being infected if they expect nothing worse than a couple of weeks off work with minimal symptoms.

Carnyx

Philip_Thompson said:

another_richard said:

Increased numbers of booster doses given in England in the last two days - 248k Friday and 325k Saturday.

The low take up by the younger age groups, which means health care care workers, compared to the oldies continues.

One issue I wonder whether it could be a meaningful factor is younger health care workers who got their first two doses early (due to working in care or the NHS) but are no loner health care workers (because they no longer work in care or the NHS). They'd be showing up in the figures for those who got vaccinated, but ineligible to get a booster now as they'd no longer meet the criteria.

Similarly for the very elderly there must be a fair few who got vaccinated over 6 months ago who have subsequently died. I'd estimate a quarter to a third of a million might apply here?

Are these accounted for in looking at the percentage of people taking up their boosters?

A lot of the now missing health workers will have headed home overseas because of you know what. Is that also taken into account, I wonder?

Sandpit

The Greens getting 9% at the next election would be great news.

For the Conservatives.

another_richard

another_richard said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Ultimately we run out of anti-vaxxers to infect.

But if we don't then those who oppose modern medicine and prefer 'natural immunity' go to the natural immunity hospitals.

Leaving the modern medicine hospitals for the 90%.

And if the booster vaccinations are as effect as I've read they are then the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated in hospitalisations and deaths is going to soar in the next few weeks.

Stocky

SandyRentool said:

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

Had to come in from the garden to "like" that post.

Couldn't agree more - the Green Party is a left wing humanist party much more than it is a party advocating for nature.

Back to the pruning.

FF43

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

MaxPB

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Not really. People have been offered a life saving option. If they have chosen not to accept it then the consequences lie with them. Any regret disappears the moment they refuse the vaccine.

Stark_Dawning

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

Philip_Thompson

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Where do we draw the line with "every avoidable death" is regrettable?

Everyone who dies from diabetes having been obese?

Everyone who dies from cancer having smoked?

Everyone who dies from cirrhosis having drank?

Everyone who dies from Covid19 having refused a vaccine?

Everyone who dies from an accident having gotten behind the wheel?

Where do you draw the line? Avoidable deaths happen, they're a risk people take whenever they make choices.

RobD

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

RobD

Stark_Dawning said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

What nonsense. The whole point of free trade is for both sides to benefit from increased competitiveness.

Aslan

Stark_Dawning said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

What are you talking about? The UK government is not using British taxpayer money to subsidize foreign businesses to compete with our own. That stopped when we left the EU.

NickPalmer

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

Philip_Thompson

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

What nonsense. The whole point of free trade is for both sides to benefit from increased competitiveness.

Its really ironic, Eurozealots like Scot want to be mercantilist anti-traders with Aus, NZ, USA and anywhere else outside of Europe - while believing that free trade is so good in Europe we should spend over ten billion pounds a year to be a part of the Single Market.

RobD

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

A collapse in A&E implies that people are turned away from treatment. If that didn’t happen when hospitalisation was five times higher, it’s not happening now.

NickPalmer

SandyRentool said:

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

I think they probably get lots more votes by seeming to be a politically neutral party who care about the environment than if most people saw them as far-left, though they're also now picking up some serious left-wingers who actually read party programmes.

darkage

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Where do we draw the line with "every avoidable death" is regrettable?

Everyone who dies from diabetes having been obese?

Everyone who dies from cancer having smoked?

Everyone who dies from cirrhosis having drank?

Everyone who dies from Covid19 having refused a vaccine?

Everyone who dies from an accident having gotten behind the wheel?

Where do you draw the line? Avoidable deaths happen, they're a risk people take whenever they make choices.

It is the endless human search for safety. A bug of advanced western societies, particularly our own, it keeps manifesting itself in bad law and bad political decisions. So it is with Covid.

CorrectHorseBattery

Labour are now supporting implementing Plan B which seems sensible.

Booster jabs are absolutely essential and I think vaccine passports should also now be on the cards too.

Taz

Sandpit said:

The Greens getting 9% at the next election would be great news.

For the Conservatives.

They won’t because they don’t have the resources to stand in every seat.

Omnium

At their best the Tories are the Greenest party. Admittedly they're often quite away from that.

Omnium

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Labour are now supporting implementing Plan B which seems sensible.

Booster jabs are absolutely essential and I think vaccine passports should also now be on the cards too.

Plan 'not A' is required.

Sandpit

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

RobD

Omnium said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Labour are now supporting implementing Plan B which seems sensible.

Booster jabs are absolutely essential and I think vaccine passports should also now be on the cards too.

Plan 'not A' is required.

Sounds more like plan A with a couple extra measures.

eek

RobD said:

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

A collapse in A&E implies that people are turned away from treatment. If that didn’t happen when hospitalisation was five times higher, it’s not happening now.

From Foxy on Friday

Foxy said:

The problem of bed capacity is quite severe in my hospitals. We often have 40 or more patients stuck in the Emergency Dept awaiting admission which then backs everything up, into the ambulances.

Individual patient stays have lengthend, but not all to do with covid. If someone winds up ventilated in ICU they usually are there for 2-3 weeks, then weeks more on a respiratory ward for the survivors, but others are in just a few days on oxygen.

Some of the other duration of stay issues are indirect results. For example hip patients with muscle atrophy from being immobile for too long take longer to get moving afterwards.

40 people awaiting admission while sat in A&E isn't normal.

Stark_Dawning

Aslan said:

Stark_Dawning said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

What are you talking about? The UK government is not using British taxpayer money to subsidize foreign businesses to compete with our own. That stopped when we left the EU.

I'm talking about encumbering our own industries so that foreign competitors can move in to take their place. But Philip Thompson is probably better qualified to talk about that - he regards it as a desirable consequence of Brexit.

Sandpit

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Labour are now supporting implementing Plan B which seems sensible.

Booster jabs are absolutely essential and I think vaccine passports should also now be on the cards too.

They need to articulate exactly what policies they are supporting. Rambling on about a vague “Plan B” won’t cut it.

Making the vaccinated jump through hoops is very unpopular.

JBriskin3

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

darkage

NickPalmer said:

SandyRentool said:

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

I think they probably get lots more votes by seeming to be a politically neutral party who care about the environment than if most people saw them as far-left, though they're also now picking up some serious left-wingers who actually read party programmes.

From what I recall, they produce corbyn style manifestos, promising massive spending in every area apart from defence, which would be rolled back to just a border force. In the end I can't vote for the greens because they are just dead wrong about defence. Their embrace of the woke stuff is also a problem now. I've always found it curious that so many educated people go along with such an agenda.

Sandpit

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Dubai, not Oman.

Was at England v WIndies last night, India v Pakistan is on now at the same stadium.

Philip_Thompson

eek said:

RobD said:

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

A collapse in A&E implies that people are turned away from treatment. If that didn’t happen when hospitalisation was five times higher, it’s not happening now.

From Foxy on Friday

Foxy said:

The problem of bed capacity is quite severe in my hospitals. We often have 40 or more patients stuck in the Emergency Dept awaiting admission which then backs everything up, into the ambulances.

Individual patient stays have lengthend, but not all to do with covid. If someone winds up ventilated in ICU they usually are there for 2-3 weeks, then weeks more on a respiratory ward for the survivors, but others are in just a few days on oxygen.

Some of the other duration of stay issues are indirect results. For example hip patients with muscle atrophy from being immobile for too long take longer to get moving afterwards.

40 people awaiting admission while sat in A&E isn't normal.

Isn't it? Any time I've sat in A&E for four hours there always seemed to be at least that many people waiting.

Omnium

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Sean Trellis is not in Oman. Aldi have a purchase history for their chicken nuggets that fly in the face of that.

RobD

eek said:

RobD said:

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

A collapse in A&E implies that people are turned away from treatment. If that didn’t happen when hospitalisation was five times higher, it’s not happening now.

From Foxy on Friday

Foxy said:

The problem of bed capacity is quite severe in my hospitals. We often have 40 or more patients stuck in the Emergency Dept awaiting admission which then backs everything up, into the ambulances.

Individual patient stays have lengthend, but not all to do with covid. If someone winds up ventilated in ICU they usually are there for 2-3 weeks, then weeks more on a respiratory ward for the survivors, but others are in just a few days on oxygen.

Some of the other duration of stay issues are indirect results. For example hip patients with muscle atrophy from being immobile for too long take longer to get moving afterwards.

40 people awaiting admission while sat in A&E isn't normal.

No, and no one suggests that we are currently living in normal times when it comes to healthcare. What’s being debated is whether or not things have collapsed. If they didn’t during a peak five times higher than now, they most certainly haven’t now.

JBriskin3

Sandpit said:

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Dubai, not Oman.

Was at England v WIndies last night, India v Pakistan is on now at the same stadium.

Are all the rest of the games being played in Dubai? I've tried to google with no success.

tlg86

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Labour are now supporting implementing Plan B which seems sensible.

Booster jabs are absolutely essential and I think vaccine passports should also now be on the cards too.

How many jabs to get the passport. Say someone doesn’t bother with a booster when offered, does that mean they are banned from society? Or once you’ve had two jabs you’re fine?

Charles

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

Don’t worry Rob

I reckon that @Stark_Dawning is just a sick puppet. All he ever does is comment on how right @Scott_P is…

JBriskin3

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Dubai, not Oman.

Was at England v WIndies last night, India v Pakistan is on now at the same stadium.

Are all the rest of the games being played in Dubai? I've tried to google with no success.

wiki tells me it's UAE and Oman.

Cricket is confusing.

Charles

Stocky said:

SandyRentool said:

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

Had to come in from the garden to "like" that post.

Couldn't agree more - the Green Party is a left wing humanist party much more than it is a party advocating for nature.

Back to the pruning.

If you were in the garden and could see the post why did you have to cone inside to like it? I call hyperbole…

Sandpit

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Dubai, not Oman.

Was at England v WIndies last night, India v Pakistan is on now at the same stadium.

Are all the rest of the games being played in Dubai? I've tried to google with no success.

There’s four venues. Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Sharjah, all in UAE, plus Muscat in Oman.

Fixture list:
https://www.t20worldcup.com/fixtures/men

There’s still tickets for most matches available, from the same site.

MattW

RobD said:

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

A collapse in A&E implies that people are turned away from treatment. If that didn’t happen when hospitalisation was five times higher, it’s not happening now.

Has there been a collapse in A&E?

I don't see that.

I've had a couple of trips to the local Hosp in the last 2 weeks (blood sample, scan), with 3 more due in the next month, so I'll ask a few people.

OnlyLivingBoy

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

"But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

Charles

MaxPB said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Not really. People have been offered a life saving option. If they have chosen not to accept it then the consequences lie with them. Any regret disappears the moment they refuse the vaccine.

You can regret something with accepting it is necessary.

OnlyLivingBoy

Charles said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

Don’t worry Rob

I reckon that @Stark_Dawning is just a sick puppet. All he ever does is comment on how right @Scott_P is…

A sick puppet? Like in Team America?

Scott_xP

FF43 said:

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

unfortunately we have not yet broken the link between Covid cases and Boris Johnson
https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1451805707943219205

JBriskin3

Sandpit said:

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

JBriskin3 said:

Sandpit said:

Sometimes you have great experiences in life, yet are left wanting more…

I’d have traded last night’s cricket tickets, to be in the stadium now.

Are you seriously in Oman now? How are you getting on with the other fan that is there?

Dubai, not Oman.

Was at England v WIndies last night, India v Pakistan is on now at the same stadium.

Are all the rest of the games being played in Dubai? I've tried to google with no success.

There’s four venues. Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Sharjah, all in UAE, plus Muscat in Oman.

Fixture list:
https://www.t20worldcup.com/fixtures/men

There’s still tickets for most matches available, from the same site.

I can't even afford Sky Sports so I won't be buying tickets - Enjoy the Tournament!

Sandpit

OnlyLivingBoy said:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

"But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

Only in Guardian-world, does levelling up mean extra benefits - as opposed to investment in infrastructure, and encouragement of private sector job creation and training.

MattW

Charles said:

Stocky said:

SandyRentool said:

My problem with the Greens is that they are not a single issue party. Hearing the two new leaders speaking at their conference, they spent more time wibbling on about general lefty social justice issues and assorted wokery than environmental issues.

They get limited air time, and what they do get should be used as a platform for highlighting the wide range of environmental issues our planet faces - not just CO2, and certainly not getting side tracked onto pronouns, bathrooms and dangly bits.

Stop being the Watermelon Party and start being a voice for the natural environment.

Had to come in from the garden to "like" that post.

Couldn't agree more - the Green Party is a left wing humanist party much more than it is a party advocating for nature.

Back to the pruning.

If you were in the garden and could see the post why did you have to cone inside to like it? I call hyperbole…

It was 3 O Clock and time for tea.

Charles

OnlyLivingBoy said:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/24/weve-been-hammered-on-the-breadline-in-burnley-covid-universal-credit

This guy in Burnley sums up the absurdity of the Tories' "levelling up" talk:

"But when they talk about levelling up … well, what we actually want are things that they took away."

I have just finished this incredible, inspiring book.

https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/muhammad-yunus/banker-to-the-poor/9781586485467/

Highly recommended.

He won the Nobel Peace Prize in recognition of his philanthropic work. And is quite clear that welfare benefits are disastrous for those who receive them

Charles

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Charles said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

Don’t worry Rob

I reckon that @Stark_Dawning is just a sick puppet. All he ever does is comment on how right @Scott_P is…

A sick puppet? Like in Team America?

Sock puppet.

But I do quite like the typo as well…

Philip_Thompson

Stark_Dawning said:

Aslan said:

Stark_Dawning said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

The argument is clear enough: Imports are a terrible threat to British businesses, and that proves we need to remove any possble barriers to imports from the EU.

Brexit has now embraced the most extreme form of globalization: the commerce of foreign countries shall be assisted at the expense of one's own.

What are you talking about? The UK government is not using British taxpayer money to subsidize foreign businesses to compete with our own. That stopped when we left the EU.

I'm talking about encumbering our own industries so that foreign competitors can move in to take their place. But Philip Thompson is probably better qualified to talk about that - he regards it as a desirable consequence of Brexit.

How does free trade encumber them?

And if it does, why do you want to pay for that encumbrance in Europe?

You're being hypocritical and don't even see it.

Sandpit

Pant’s out!

Sean_F

Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

Scott_xP

Official figures show the UK has recorded 72 COVID-19 related deaths and 39,962 positive cases of the virus in the latest 24-hour period

For more on this and other news visit http://news.sky.com

another_richard

UK cases
39,962 today
45,140 last Sunday

England cases
33,221 today
38,543 last Sunday

If that's a half term effect its both large and quick.

Looks like Starmer might have jumped on the more restrictions bus just when cases had peaked.

Philip_Thompson

Scott_xP said:

Official figures show the UK has recorded 72 COVID-19 related deaths and 39,962 positive cases of the virus in the latest 24-hour period

For more on this and other news visit http://news.sky.com

So 1 per 9 constituencies in the UK?

Death numbers are still miniscule and people are hyperventilating here like we need to throw away civil liberties, mask up and all other garbage.

Stark_Dawning

Charles said:

RobD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Some interesting posts by Scott_xP on the previous thread. Looks like the Truss's trade deals - Japan, NZ, Aus - are unravelling fast. I thought she'd be the most likely to succeed Boris, but at this rate she'll soon be a Tory pariah - the woman who ruined Brexit.

Not really. It’s just the usual interest groups having a moan. And repeating the same story multiple times does not constitute “unraveling fast”.

Don’t worry Rob

I reckon that @Stark_Dawning is just a sick puppet. All he ever does is comment on how right @Scott_P is…

I don't think I comment on the rightness or wrongness of Scott_xP's posts more than I do anyone else's, so your remark is as silly and as paranoid as it is misspelt.

DougSeal

Scott_xP said:

Official figures show the UK has recorded 72 COVID-19 related deaths and 39,962 positive cases of the virus in the latest 24-hour period

For more on this and other news visit http://news.sky.com

Down about 5,000 from last Sunday. England only cases down as well from this day last week. A tiny little down tick showing on the dashboard too would suggest (fingers crossed) this wavelet has peaked. Let’s see. Lots of LEAs have half term this week coming too.

Scott_xP

GREAT NEWS
My campaign to limit the number of people retweeting this image and causing upset to the Conservatives has made great progress I am now so confident that nobody will RT it that I am going to tag in @Conservatives so they can see how well we're doing.
Thank you.
#marr https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1452188585747173382/photo/1

Philip_Thompson

Come on Liverpool!

This is always one of the best fixtures in the season, hoping for a high (away) scoring game and not a boring 0-0 draw.

Come on Salah, make it ten games in a row!

MaxPB

Missed the R<1 by 3 days. Looks like Friday is the day. I had it as Tuesday earlier in the week but that looks like R 1.03, if we've got to herd immunity then we could see the R fall quite a lot in the next two or three weeks. Fingers crossed!

another_richard

Sean_F said:

Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.

RobD

Scott_xP said:

GREAT NEWS
My campaign to limit the number of people retweeting this image and causing upset to the Conservatives has made great progress I am now so confident that nobody will RT it that I am going to tag in @Conservatives so they can see how well we're doing.
Thank you.
#marr https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1452188585747173382/photo/1

There appears to be a story I missed, or was this a manifesto commitment?

Sandpit

Scott_xP said:

GREAT NEWS
My campaign to limit the number of people retweeting this image and causing upset to the Conservatives has made great progress I am now so confident that nobody will RT it that I am going to tag in @Conservatives so they can see how well we're doing.
Thank you.
#marr https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1452188585747173382/photo/1

Funny to think that that bus is still winding people up, more than five years later.

Taz

Sandpit said:

Scott_xP said:

GREAT NEWS
My campaign to limit the number of people retweeting this image and causing upset to the Conservatives has made great progress I am now so confident that nobody will RT it that I am going to tag in @Conservatives so they can see how well we're doing.
Thank you.
#marr https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1452188585747173382/photo/1

Funny to think that that bus is still winding people up, more than five years later.

It seems to live rent free in so many barking FBPE types heads.

Scott_xP

RobD said:

There appears to be a story I missed, or was this a manifesto commitment?

The manifesto commitment was "Get Brexit Done". This is the result....

Anabobazina

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

MattW

Sandpit said:

Pant’s out!

Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".

Alistair

another_richard said:

Sean_F said:

Covid case numbers are down 5,000 week on week. Is that a turning point?

Its the pattern we saw in the places which were on half term last week.

What happens when the schools return we don't know yet.

But in the meantime millions of booster doses will be given.

Yeah Scotland figures were quite clearly affected by half term, glasgow and Edinburgh having half term on dofferent weeks really helped the A-B experiment. Edinburgh schools back this week coming so we get to see what happens.

Still a chonky fall is nothing to be coughed at.

A warning for the next couple of days, Wales had a zero case day yesterday so a "double" day will appear tomorrow or the day after to distort the day of report figs.

ydoethur

MattW said:

Sandpit said:

Pant’s out!

Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".

Only if you’re brief.

Sandpit

MattW said:

Sandpit said:

Pant’s out!

Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".

Was going to edit to “Pant’s off”.

Big_G_NorthWales

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie

ydoethur

Sandpit said:

MattW said:

Sandpit said:

Pant’s out!

Shouldn't that be "Pant's down".

Was going to edit to “Pant’s off”.

If you’d done that you would have been kilt

RobD

Scott_xP said:

RobD said:

There appears to be a story I missed, or was this a manifesto commitment?

The manifesto commitment was "Get Brexit Done". This is the result....

I was after a link to a story discussing it actually.

ydoethur

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie

Bodies do not need sustenance and when have our nationalcommentators ever eaten humble pie?

Mexicanpete

NickPalmer said:

RobD said:

FF43 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FF43 said:

Looks like UK governments have screwed the pooch on Covid passports - tbf not just Johnson this time - while Macron and others made the right call.

Vaccines are good. They are nearly enough to contain the epidemic on current vaccination rates and general social behaviour But not quite. There's a Micawber principle at play here.

So if vaccines aren't quite good enough, where do you go from here? No-one wants to lock down again. We're missing that vital tool that drives up vaccination rates and allows fine tuned controls on social distancing.

Go for vaccines and 'natural immune systems' combined. Its worked for months already.

The NHS will just have to do the best it can do over the winter.

Unfortunately this may be the case, but it was unnecessary. We are where we are. A&E is collapsing. People who could have been treated will die. More people will die from Covid than would otherwise. Even if many of those were unvaccinated through choice or inaction, every avoidable death is regrettable.

Hospitalisations are far lower than before, and things didn’t collapse then.

They kind of did. Waiting lists shot up through the roof, which will have caused significant suffering and numerous non-Covid deaths. You might decide it was worthwhile, but it can't be just ignored.

There were also significantly less "other" serious winter ailment like flu pressurising the NHS, because we were working from home or locked in isolation.

I am not advocating the latter, but surely the likes of RobD have to acknowledge, as Philip Thompson does, in order to keep masks off and workers commuting to the office the price is quite likely to be greater stress on the NHS. Now Philip accepts that is a price worth paying, whereas RobD claims move along, nothing to see. Now RobD may be correct. That certainly looks to be the near future that Johnson and Sunak are banking on.

Big_G_NorthWales

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie

Bodies do not need sustenance and when have our nationalcommentators ever eaten humble pie?

Fair comment

Philip_Thompson

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

I really hope for everyone this is the decline we all seek

If Boris and HMG have called this right then a large number of bodies and commentators will be eating humble pie

They won't though, they'll just move swiftly onto another line as to why we should lock down.

Never admit they're wrong. Never concede. That's how they operate.

Scott_xP

RobD said:

I was after a link to a story discussing it actually.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/heres-every-tory-who-voted-against-stopping-sewage-dumping-in-rivers-297784/

Mexicanpete

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

Good news if accurate, alternatively it could be bad news Tuesday.

ydoethur

In light of earlier discussions about student loans, this story has considerable relevance.

'My student loan refund took six years'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59011232

She asks why this happened. Easy. It’s because their repayments department are the only people in the world more useless, cowardly and inept than Mitch McConnell. Their boss for many years, Kevin O’Connor, is a very stupid man who is functionally illiterate (as I know from personal correspondence with him). In my case, he also got muddled over the months of the year and tried to persuade me that July was not the month before August.

Any changes to the student loan repayment system should be treated with extreme caution not just because of the ethical and legal implications of retrospective changes but because these utter clowns will probably be incapable of coping and cause a systemic collapse.

Which doesn’t mean the government won’t do it, of course.

Anabobazina

Mexicanpete said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

Good news if accurate, alternatively it could be bad news Tuesday.

Indeed it could. Too early to say. But, I do hope those who were calling for more restrictions will concede if it does turn out to be a turning point.

Sandpit

Mexicanpete said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

Good news if accurate, alternatively it could be bad news Tuesday.

The cases could have halved and the media would stil say it’s bad news, along with a ‘scientist’ who says we need a tracking database, masks on again and pubs all closed next week.

Alistair

5000 less cases week on week. About 2000 of that fall is the South West alone.

Philip_Thompson

Scott_xP said:

RobD said:

I was after a link to a story discussing it actually.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/heres-every-tory-who-voted-against-stopping-sewage-dumping-in-rivers-297784/

So a vote to keep the law unamended as its been for many years?

How is this "news"? Or Brexit related?

ydoethur

Anabobazina said:

Mexicanpete said:

Anabobazina said:

Need more data, but today’s COVID numbers do suggest a feast of humble pie could be in order for some.

We’ll see. Too early to be certain.

Good news if accurate, alternatively it could be bad news Tuesday.

Indeed it could. Too early to say. But, I do hope those who were calling for more restrictions will concede if it does turn out to be a turning point.

That’s the triumph of hope over experience if ever I saw it.

turbotubbs

Alistair said:

5000 less cases week on week. About 2000 of that fall is the South West alone.

Yep, the retesting is winding back down now.

MrEd

another_richard said:

UK cases
39,962 today
45,140 last Sunday

England cases
33,221 today
38,543 last Sunday

If that's a half term effect its both large and quick.

Looks like Starmer might have jumped on the more restrictions bus just when cases had peaked.

Starmer getting it wrong? Jesus, who would have thought that?