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The message is getting through to CON MPs and more are wearing masks – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,341
    edited October 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Visited Singapore once, in September 2009. They hadn't yet built the amazing hotel with the swimming pool resting on three towers. Wouldn't mind staying there.

    I've stayed there - not that long after you visited - in 2012/3. There's a nightclub at the top, called something like Ku De Ta. (As in coup d'etat.)
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    It doesn't solve the fundamental issue: there's so much money in illegal drugs, that people are prepared to risk imprisonment and death.
    My "fundamental issue" is different to yours. It's the torture and the terror, not the drug dealing. As you can do the latter without the former, by unleashing hell on those that do the former, you incentivize the rest to try to avoid violence.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    Unless there are any Pakistani weddings in the vicinity. Those are always fair game for drones.

    ETA and that is always the trouble. Collateral damage. And edge cases. Is the chief torturer's chauffeur innocent?

    Amazing how much you fall for the propaganda of a few much cited stories. Drone strikes have far less collateral damage than any form of warfare. And far less than the current reign of terror from the cartels.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    Unless there are any Pakistani weddings in the vicinity. Those are always fair game for drones.

    ETA and that is always the trouble. Collateral damage. And edge cases. Is the chief torturer's chauffeur innocent?

    Not to mention the fact that the drug cartels are completely paranoid with regards to security. It's not just the DEA they're avoiding, it's other cartels too.

    The idea that the US government knows where to find the bosses and could just snuff them out with a few helicopters of marines is ridiculous.
    Because ISIS and other terror groups aren't paranoid about security?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.

    Although that was because it was a commodity exporter, not because it had decent indigenous industries. It's very easy to be (at least temporarily) rich if you are able to export something the world needs, without any of that tedious work shit.
    Argentina had an economy at Western levels, not just resources.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,341
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.

    Although that was because it was a commodity exporter, not because it had decent indigenous industries. It's very easy to be (at least temporarily) rich if you are able to export something the world needs, without any of that tedious work shit.
    Argentina had an economy at Western levels, not just resources.
    That's simply not true.

    https://zaguan.unizar.es/record/84206
  • Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    Unless there are any Pakistani weddings in the vicinity. Those are always fair game for drones.

    ETA and that is always the trouble. Collateral damage. And edge cases. Is the chief torturer's chauffeur innocent?

    Amazing how much you fall for the propaganda of a few much cited stories. Drone strikes have far less collateral damage than any form of warfare. And far less than the current reign of terror from the cartels.
    Is that the standard to which we should hold ourselves?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    A misogynist, homophobe fascist, who'd have guessed he's also transphobic ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    Another bit of the UK's critical infrastructure looking somewhat creaky.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/21/oil-refinery-concern-westminster-financial-backers
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    Alec Baldwin fatally shoots woman with prop gun on movie set
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59005500
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,440
    Jacob Rees-Mogg thinks Tory MPs don't need to wear masks because they have a "convivial, fraternal spirit".

    When someone is so obnoxious, you have to be thankful he's also funny.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 47,341
    Chris said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg thinks Tory MPs don't need to wear masks because they have a "convivial, fraternal spirit".

    When someone is so obnoxious, you have to be thankful he's also funny.

    Well known fact that you can only get infectious diseases from people who aren't friendly to you.

    Everyone knows this.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 2,876
    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg thinks Tory MPs don't need to wear masks because they have a "convivial, fraternal spirit".

    When someone is so obnoxious, you have to be thankful he's also funny.

    Well known fact that you can only get infectious diseases from people who aren't friendly to you.

    Everyone knows this.
    The Government has tied itself up in knots unnecessarily over the dreaded masks.

    There are legitimate reasons for resisting the normalisation of their use, which is what is effectively being proposed by abolishing legislation, yet trying to compel people to keep wearing them indefinitely through social pressure. If we get to the position where masks are meant to be used as a social nicety, or because other people might be frightened by their absence, then we shall be stuck with them for good.

    Ultimately, if they are sufficiently important to be worth using in particular settings then they should be mandated by legislation; Parliament doesn't recommend the use of car seatbelts, for example - it demands them. At least in Scotland everyone knows where they stand on this issue, and can (hopefully) look forward to an end date when the compulsion to shuffle around in the blessed things is removed, and people are allowed to go about their business without being hectored and cajoled to keep going by ministers.

    If, on the other hand, they're not important enough to be worth enforcing, then people should be left in peace to do what they like and the subject ought to be dropped.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    Good morning, my fellow database entry units.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,537
    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Chris said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg thinks Tory MPs don't need to wear masks because they have a "convivial, fraternal spirit".

    When someone is so obnoxious, you have to be thankful he's also funny.

    Well known fact that you can only get infectious diseases from people who aren't friendly to you.

    Everyone knows this.
    The Government has tied itself up in knots unnecessarily over the dreaded masks.

    There are legitimate reasons for resisting the normalisation of their use, which is what is effectively being proposed by abolishing legislation, yet trying to compel people to keep wearing them indefinitely through social pressure. If we get to the position where masks are meant to be used as a social nicety, or because other people might be frightened by their absence, then we shall be stuck with them for good.

    Ultimately, if they are sufficiently important to be worth using in particular settings then they should be mandated by legislation; Parliament doesn't recommend the use of car seatbelts, for example - it demands them. At least in Scotland everyone knows where they stand on this issue, and can (hopefully) look forward to an end date when the compulsion to shuffle around in the blessed things is removed, and people are allowed to go about their business without being hectored and cajoled to keep going by ministers.

    If, on the other hand, they're not important enough to be worth enforcing, then people should be left in peace to do what they like and the subject ought to be dropped.
    I oppose masks because I think it’s pointless when we’re not wearing them all the time. Eventually everyone will come into contact with COVID.

    But I think you make a fair point. If someone from TfL demanded that I put on a mask, I would (I always carry one, just in case). But if they do it to someone else, they may get verbally abused or much worse.
  • The Tory messaging on masks appears confused because it is. Javed appears to have turned into Father Dougal at the press conference the other day ("oh right yeah") when asked about masks. And suddenly the Tory benches are socially distanced and masked. What we need now is a minister doing the media rounds (used to be Jenrick, probably now Shapps Green) saying "we have always worn masks".

    The government has a sticky problem. Having very confidently driven home the message that we can get back to normal they now need us to stop and think. There have been plenty of opportunities where they have been able to just ignore the scientists and the health experts, but they can't do now. The threat of the NHS collapsing isn't one that even the great Boris can Kermit the Frog away. They have to act. Will wind up the Philips and Swanyes of this world no end.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,004

    Good morning, my fellow database entry units.

    At least it's dry this morning. Good game of cricket last night, but I'm sure Scotland will struggle when they come up against the really big boys.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    King Cole, aye, I thought it was raining but, happily, when I took the dog it was actually dry.
  • King Cole, aye, I thought it was raining but, happily, when I took the dog it was actually dry.

    Rain? There's been snow over in Braemar.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,004

    King Cole, aye, I thought it was raining but, happily, when I took the dog it was actually dry.

    Rain? There's been snow over in Braemar.
    I don't know, but I think you might have to expect that in winter in Scotland. Even in late October.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,057
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
    SIngapore’s an awesome city.

    Take everything that’s good about London, Hong Kong and Dubai, and put them all in the same place. It’s walkable, spotlessly clean, everyone’s polite and queues for the metro.

    The downsides are that it’s a pretty small place, and beer is £15 a pint in the bars so you end up chasing happy hours around town. They’re also increasingly making it more difficult to hire expatriate workers in high-skilled jobs, and their handling of the pandemic has been one of the most authoritarian in the world, with compulsory institutional quarantine even for those with ample space of their own.

    I went there for a couple of weeks in 2013, watched the Grand Prix and stayed one night in the Sands hotel with the swimming pool on the roof. Awesome holiday. The casino was full of Chinese paying $100 a bet.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,479
    So the news this morning is blaming people for not taking up their booster shots. Well one solution as raised yesterday by @IanB2 , @GIN1138 and myself is to let us book the bloody thing then in advance. It is daft that you can't book it unless you are passed the 6 month date so it isn't 6 months then is it, it is 6m+
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
    SIngapore’s an awesome city.

    Take everything that’s good about London, Hong Kong and Dubai, and put them all in the same place. It’s walkable, spotlessly clean, everyone’s polite and queues for the metro.

    The downsides are that it’s a pretty small place, and beer is £15 a pint in the bars so you end up chasing happy hours around town. They’re also increasingly making it more difficult to hire expatriate workers in high-skilled jobs, and their handling of the pandemic has been one of the most authoritarian in the world, with compulsory institutional quarantine even for those with ample space of their own.

    I went there for a couple of weeks in 2013, watched the Grand Prix and stayed one night in the Sands hotel with the swimming pool on the roof. Awesome holiday. The casino was full of Chinese paying $100 a bet.
    Many moons ago I lived in Jakarta and when Suharto was overthrown had to evacuate the company expats to Singapore. While some enjoyed Jakarta many used to p*ss & moan that it wasn't as good as Singapore. After two weeks in Singapore most of them were begging to be allowed back to Jakarta....so I said you can come back when your Embassy says its safe - the Brits were quick off the mark, the Americans a lot slower. It is a great city to visit.....to live long term, I'm not so sure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,349
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    To be fair, a Russian leader should be an expert in detecting 'crimes against humanity', given that performing crimes against humanity seem to be a Russian leader's favourite hobby ...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,512
    kjh said:

    So the news this morning is blaming people for not taking up their booster shots. Well one solution as raised yesterday by @IanB2 , @GIN1138 and myself is to let us book the bloody thing then in advance. It is daft that you can't book it unless you are passed the 6 month date so it isn't 6 months then is it, it is 6m+

    But you wouldn’t have been able to actually have the booster yet would you? I’m surprised that it’s lack of demand.
  • Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,512

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised if that is what the ordinary person on the Clapham omnibus thinks, but it a bit sad. There has been enormous levels of information available about why a booster is a good thing for those at risk.
    You know the answer, your not stupid, so why don’t they?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,004

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised if that is what the ordinary person on the Clapham omnibus thinks, but it a bit sad. There has been enormous levels of information available about why a booster is a good thing for those at risk.
    You know the answer, your not stupid, so why don’t they?
    We caught the damn thing about a week before I was due my booster, although my wife could have had hers. As she started with symptoms a day or before I did, wonder if she'd had the booster we'd neither of us have been infected.
    What's odd about that is that in the week before symptoms started we were together all the time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,057
    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    The issue is that state-run healthcare has always been capacity-restrained, so there’s waiting lists to see specialists and for facilities. The pandemic has put a lot of treatment on hold, and the waiting lists have now grown to unmanageable levels.

    A forward-thinking, Conservative Chancellor would reverse the BIK treatment of employer-provided private healthcare, and instead give tax breaks for it, at the same time as allowing an unlimited number of visas for healthcare workers to massively expand the size of the private healthcare sector. Also allow NHS contracting out to facilities overseas for willing patients.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,595
    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    The problem of bed capacity is quite severe in my hospitals. We often have 40 or more patients stuck in the Emergency Dept awaiting admission which then backs everything up, into the ambulances.

    Individual patient stays have lengthend, but not all to do with covid. If someone winds up ventilated in ICU they usually are there for 2-3 weeks, then weeks more on a respiratory ward for the survivors, but others are in just a few days on oxygen.

    Some of the other duration of stay issues are indirect results. For example hip patients with muscle atrophy from being immobile for too long take longer to get moving afterwards.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Question for NHS England COVID QR code holders - what format does this come in? Guernsey has just got round to issuing online QR codes - one for each dose - with an expiry date one month hence (when it can be renewed) - is the NHS England one the same, ie one QR code per dose?

    Note to friends north of the border - cost of this to Guernsey was £0 (about £600,000 less than Scotland spent) because they just lifted the UK one.
  • Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised if that is what the ordinary person on the Clapham omnibus thinks, but it a bit sad. There has been enormous levels of information available about why a booster is a good thing for those at risk.
    You know the answer, your not stupid, so why don’t they?
    Because "vaccinated means go back to normal". They might look at the flu jab programme and think "people get it every year" but most people don't.

    For most people - including the Leader of the House of Commons - Covid is Over. Trying to bring people back to wearing masks and getting another almost mandatory vaccination is going to be very hard.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,595
    Andy_JS said:

    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.

    Yep, that's populist governments featherbedding their client state for you...

    Though there was a bit more to it than that. Galleanos book "the Open Veins of Latin America" covers a lot else of what went wrong.

    In terms of US troops attacking the Mexican cartels, or droning them, I think there would be few faster ways of turning them into national hero's fighting the Yankee aggressor...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,595
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    The issue is that state-run healthcare has always been capacity-restrained, so there’s waiting lists to see specialists and for facilities. The pandemic has put a lot of treatment on hold, and the waiting lists have now grown to unmanageable levels.

    A forward-thinking, Conservative Chancellor would reverse the BIK treatment of employer-provided private healthcare, and instead give tax breaks for it, at the same time as allowing an unlimited number of visas for healthcare workers to massively expand the size of the private healthcare sector. Also allow NHS contracting out to facilities overseas for willing patients.
    Or we could simply build more capacity and improve postgraduate training and prospects (not all of which involves more pay).

    What is it about rightwingers and their desire for cheap immigrant labour and worsening trade balances by exporting service industries?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,504

    Question for NHS England COVID QR code holders - what format does this come in? Guernsey has just got round to issuing online QR codes - one for each dose - with an expiry date one month hence (when it can be renewed) - is the NHS England one the same, ie one QR code per dose?

    Note to friends north of the border - cost of this to Guernsey was £0 (about £600,000 less than Scotland spent) because they just lifted the UK one.

    What do you mean?

    My proof of (double) vaccination is just one single qr code in my Wallet app on my phone.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,107
    edited October 2021
    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    A quick glance at the Coronvirus website tells me that on the 17th April 9.9m at had their second jabs.

    So 9.9million have had all week to book (even have their booster jabs).

    Yet if you look at the top level numbers only 360 people have had booster jabs - now that figure makes no sense but vaccinations given less first dose total less second dose total =360.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    What I suspect is happening is that booster vaccinations aren't being recorded but it's clear that given over 10million people are eligible for booster shots nothing like that number have had them.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095

    Question for NHS England COVID QR code holders - what format does this come in? Guernsey has just got round to issuing online QR codes - one for each dose - with an expiry date one month hence (when it can be renewed) - is the NHS England one the same, ie one QR code per dose?

    Note to friends north of the border - cost of this to Guernsey was £0 (about £600,000 less than Scotland spent) because they just lifted the UK one.

    What do you mean?

    My proof of (double) vaccination is just one single qr code in my Wallet app on my phone.
    For some reason the Guernsey version has two QR codes - one for each dose, and its web based, rather than via wallet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    F1: just 6.7% of fans think the sprint race has improved the show:
    https://twitter.com/superlicense/status/1451430900441370624

    We'll see if the plan for half the races next year to be contaminated with them proceeds.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,706
    Semi on topic, I was at a comedy club last night for the first time in a couple of years (used to go fairly regularly).

    Nobody wearing masks, despite a few signs asking them to do so.

    And a nightmarish audience for the comedians, including a couple of loud and obnoxious parties obviously glad to be out again after a couple of years.
  • Tory MP's aren't as hypocritical as opposition MPs. Opposution MP's are virtue signallers par excellence.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    F1: Vettel's changing his engine so will get a grid penalty.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    Surely the more notable thing about the 2 pictures in the thread header is that there is far more transgenderism on the Tory back benchers than we would have guessed. Having gone for the ethnic minority vote in a big way is Boris going for the Woke vote too?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,112
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    (Reading it now)

    I don't disagree.

    Legalise things that are merely bad for you, and criminalise (and punish *users* severely) for stuff that is more problematic.
    The drugs that are crazy bad for you came about as attempts to get round supply chain problems related to illegality.

    If you legalised, people would move to the safer equivalents.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,112
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    A quick glance at the Coronvirus website tells me that on the 17th April 9.9m at had their second jabs.

    So 9.9million have had all week to book (even have their booster jabs).

    Yet if you look at the top level numbers only 360 people have had booster jabs - now that figure makes no sense but vaccinations given less first dose total less second dose total =360.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    What I suspect is happening is that booster vaccinations aren't being recorded but it's clear that given over 10million people are eligible for booster shots nothing like that number have had them.


    It's my understanding from looking at the data that they aren't displaying booster shots on the dashboard or putting them in the data feed.

    I've got a question for them on that and the issue about children's 1st and only shots....
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,748

    Question for NHS England COVID QR code holders - what format does this come in? Guernsey has just got round to issuing online QR codes - one for each dose - with an expiry date one month hence (when it can be renewed) - is the NHS England one the same, ie one QR code per dose?

    Note to friends north of the border - cost of this to Guernsey was £0 (about £600,000 less than Scotland spent) because they just lifted the UK one.

    There are two different NHS passes. The NHS domestic COVID pass is a single QR code. The international travel one is two codes.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,706
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.

    Yep, that's populist governments featherbedding their client state for you...

    Though there was a bit more to it than that. Galleanos book "the Open Veins of Latin America" covers a lot else of what went wrong.

    In terms of US troops attacking the Mexican cartels, or droning them, I think there would be few faster ways of turning them into national hero's fighting the Yankee aggressor...
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
    SIngapore’s an awesome city.

    Take everything that’s good about London, Hong Kong and Dubai, and put them all in the same place. It’s walkable, spotlessly clean, everyone’s polite and queues for the metro.

    The downsides are that it’s a pretty small place, and beer is £15 a pint in the bars so you end up chasing happy hours around town. They’re also increasingly making it more difficult to hire expatriate workers in high-skilled jobs, and their handling of the pandemic has been one of the most authoritarian in the world, with compulsory institutional quarantine even for those with ample space of their own.

    I went there for a couple of weeks in 2013, watched the Grand Prix and stayed one night in the Sands hotel with the swimming pool on the roof. Awesome holiday. The casino was full of Chinese paying $100 a bet.
    Also the weather is exceptionally humid and unpleasant and it doesn't have much if any character. I much prefer Hong Kong, or did before the Chinese tightened their grip.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 56,095
    Councils across Scotland are poised to bypass Holyrood and win funding for new roads and other local infrastructure projects directly from the UK Government, says @michaelgove

    Full story: https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-councils-bypass-holyrood-bidding-uk-levelling-up-fund-government-1261516 @theipaper


    https://twitter.com/ChrisGreenNews/status/1451450326364663809?s=20
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,955

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    There are some who will say that the arrival of a new variant or sub variant just in time for panicking into another winter of lockdown is incredibly convenient.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    F1: I'll probably mock this at the start of the pre-qualifying waffle, but the sport's official website has declared there's a net positive reaction to sprint races (not providing any numbers here in contrast to just about everything else) and forgetting to mention only 6.7% of fans actually like them.

    *sighs*
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,178
    edited October 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    (Reading it now)

    I don't disagree.

    Legalise things that are merely bad for you, and criminalise (and punish *users* severely) for stuff that is more problematic.
    The drugs that are crazy bad for you came about as attempts to get round supply chain problems related to illegality.

    If you legalised, people would move to the safer equivalents.
    Like many things there are a variety of approaches. The worst (and commonest) is inconsistency, constant publicity exercises, 'crackdowns' (there was one this week) and so on.

    The possible approaches ate inconsistent with each other, so you have to make enemies in choosing. You are treading on toes and vested interests.

    The big options are:
    Legalise, laissez faire.
    Legalise, regulate, tax.
    Criminalise, with the emphasis on the supplier
    Ditto, with the emphasis on the user/purchaser (ie very long sentences merely for small time use and possession).

    We have discovered over decades that the third does not work. The second and fourth have never been tried and, IMHO, are the only ones with any chance at all of success.

    if you are making millions you will risk a 20 year sentence. How many ordinary folks would risk possession and use if the penalty were the same as possession of a firearm?

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    I am sure I read a few months ago was that one of the beneficial effects of the vaccines is that the vaccinated, even when they did require hospitalisation, were in for shorter periods, typically under a week. I think until recently we had been seeing this in that we were seeing roughly 700 a day going into hospital but the number actually in hospital with Covid was pretty static. It seems to have edged up from roughly 6k to 8k more recently though as the number of cases have increased.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,477
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/economy/trucking-short-drivers/index.html

    Brexit, destroying the American supply chain too.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,470
    edited October 2021

    Question for NHS England COVID QR code holders - what format does this come in? Guernsey has just got round to issuing online QR codes - one for each dose - with an expiry date one month hence (when it can be renewed) - is the NHS England one the same, ie one QR code per dose?

    Note to friends north of the border - cost of this to Guernsey was £0 (about £600,000 less than Scotland spent) because they just lifted the UK one.

    What do you mean?

    My proof of (double) vaccination is just one single qr code in my Wallet app on my phone.
    Are you sure?

    There should be a QR code for each of the two jabs.

    And why do they show an expiry date?

    Edit: JohnL clears up first point below.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,013

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/economy/trucking-short-drivers/index.html

    Brexit, destroying the American supply chain too.

    When I read that link my first thought was that the height of the drivers is surely irrelevant and sizest and my second thought, having misread the first word, was that there was no need to be so rude about it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,479

    kjh said:

    So the news this morning is blaming people for not taking up their booster shots. Well one solution as raised yesterday by @IanB2 , @GIN1138 and myself is to let us book the bloody thing then in advance. It is daft that you can't book it unless you are passed the 6 month date so it isn't 6 months then is it, it is 6m+

    But you wouldn’t have been able to actually have the booster yet would you? I’m surprised that it’s lack of demand.
    I can have it next week but can't book it so it won't be next week then.

    This means we are actually over 6m before getting it. That wouldn't be an issue if they weren't complaining about lack of take up. They are generating that lack of take up. This is the same issue with a number of friends of mine and @GIN1138 who told the same story last night re his mother.

    It is frustrating that they are complaining about lack of take up yet are generating the problem themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    .

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    Which is why government should have been way more proactive in making the case.
    Fits the pattern

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised if that is what the ordinary person on the Clapham omnibus thinks, but it a bit sad. There has been enormous levels of information available about why a booster is a good thing for those at risk.
    You know the answer, your not stupid, so why don’t they?
    An energetic government information campaign a month ago might have made a big difference.
    As ever, this govt is reactive, not proactive.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    Alistair said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
    Are you aware of any breakdown of those in hospital between the vaccinated and the terminally stupid?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,125
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    I am sure I read a few months ago was that one of the beneficial effects of the vaccines is that the vaccinated, even when they did require hospitalisation, were in for shorter periods, typically under a week. I think until recently we had been seeing this in that we were seeing roughly 700 a day going into hospital but the number actually in hospital with Covid was pretty static. It seems to have edged up from roughly 6k to 8k more recently though as the number of cases have increased.
    I think that's correct.
    Setting aside the severely immune improvised, of course.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,693
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    The only figures I can readily find are from the beginning of 2021, which give the average hospital stay as around a week.
    Note, though, that there will be a large number discharged after two or three days, while intensive care patients can be in for very much longer. So it's probably more like 1% of admissions which cause the greatest problem.

    Also the difference between this year and last is another year's accumulated backlog of treatment.

    @Foxy can probably shed more light ?
    I am sure I read a few months ago was that one of the beneficial effects of the vaccines is that the vaccinated, even when they did require hospitalisation, were in for shorter periods, typically under a week. I think until recently we had been seeing this in that we were seeing roughly 700 a day going into hospital but the number actually in hospital with Covid was pretty static. It seems to have edged up from roughly 6k to 8k more recently though as the number of cases have increased.
    I think that's correct.
    Setting aside the severely immune improvised, of course.
    Great new category.

  • fox327fox327 Posts: 353
    I believe that wearing a mask should be a personal choice. I will not be voting for a party at the next general election if most of its MPs are wearing masks in the House of Commons chamber.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,115
    re boosters the messaging imo is super unclear. It was for the vulnerable and old oldies wasn't it or something. I don't think there is the same precise targeting and communication as there was for the initial jabs.

    Is that conspiracy or cock up who knows.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,470
    edited October 2021
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
    Are you aware of any breakdown of those in hospital between the vaccinated and the terminally stupid?
    What do you say to someone such as my audiologist's clerk who is unvaccinated because, she says, she can't have it for health reasons? When I enquired further she said "I can't have any vaccination because I have a phobia about being injected".
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,512

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    As I said yesterday the clear messaging has been "vaccinated means go back to normal". So its hardly a surprise that there is a lack of demand - "why do I need a booster?"
    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised if that is what the ordinary person on the Clapham omnibus thinks, but it a bit sad. There has been enormous levels of information available about why a booster is a good thing for those at risk.
    You know the answer, your not stupid, so why don’t they?
    Because "vaccinated means go back to normal". They might look at the flu jab programme and think "people get it every year" but most people don't.

    For most people - including the Leader of the House of Commons - Covid is Over. Trying to bring people back to wearing masks and getting another almost mandatory vaccination is going to be very hard.
    Is it though? Its on the news 24/7. Cases rising, medics screaming for new restrictions. People do watch the news.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,250

    F1: I'll probably mock this at the start of the pre-qualifying waffle, but the sport's official website has declared there's a net positive reaction to sprint races (not providing any numbers here in contrast to just about everything else) and forgetting to mention only 6.7% of fans actually like them.

    *sighs*

    I think they're ok. But frankly the same effect could be done with them starting the race, then pulling up to stop, then starting the race again. The only real impact seems to be at the start with people making or losing places.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    (Reading it now)

    I don't disagree.

    Legalise things that are merely bad for you, and criminalise (and punish *users* severely) for stuff that is more problematic.
    The drugs that are crazy bad for you came about as attempts to get round supply chain problems related to illegality.

    If you legalised, people would move to the safer equivalents.
    Like many things there are a variety of approaches. The worst (and commonest) is inconsistency, constant publicity exercises, 'crackdowns' (there was one this week) and so on.

    The possible approaches ate inconsistent with each other, so you have to make enemies in choosing. You are treading on toes and vested interests.

    The big options are:
    Legalise, laissez faire.
    Legalise, regulate, tax.
    Criminalise, with the emphasis on the supplier
    Ditto, with the emphasis on the user/purchaser (ie very long sentences merely for small time use and possession).

    We have discovered over decades that the third does not work. The second and fourth have never been tried and, IMHO, are the only ones with any chance at all of success.

    if you are making millions you will risk a 20 year sentence. How many ordinary folks would risk possession and use if the penalty were the same as possession of a firearm?

    More than enough to completely overfill our prison system, that's for sure. The Lord Advocate in Scotland recently announced, to very little fanfare, that there would be a strong presumption against any prosecution for simple possession of any illegal drugs. The lack of moaning about this dramatic decision suggests to me that the political balance on this is rapidly moving towards legalisation. Just a few more thousand dead to go.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 103,034
    President Biden says the US would defend Taiwan if China attacked it

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59005300
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,115
    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,758
    Morning all.

    On berserker policemen, remember that this is in part due to an established. At about the time I was stopped and searched for looking like a terrorist by looking at the local area map in Kings Cross Station for 60 seconds, these also happened:

    15 year old school pupil stopped and searched outside Wimbledon Station, when he was doing a school project. Threatened with detention.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081995/Schoolboy-15-held-terror-suspect-taking-photos-railway-station-GCSE-project.html

    The too tall terrorist. Photos in the street. Arrested because at 5'11' a policewoman felt "threatened" by him. About 30% of the male population are of that height.
    https://www.theregister.com/2009/07/22/kent_police/




  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 103,034
    Alec Baldwin fatally shoot a woman on a film set in New Mexico after the misfiring of a prop gun with blanks.


    Tragic story

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59005500
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
    Are you aware of any breakdown of those in hospital between the vaccinated and the terminally stupid?
    What do you say to someone such as my audiologist's clerk who is unvaccinated because, she says, she can't have it for health reasons? When I enquired further she said "I can't have any vaccination because I have a phobia about being injected".
    I say good luck, you're going to need it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    Mr. Slackbladder, I bet Alonso fans love them (he's so-so at qualifying but great wheel-to-wheel) but otherwise the main supporters seem to be F1 bigwigs trying to squeeze more money out of fans with a pretend race in between qualifying and the actual race.

    Mr. HYUFD, we'll see. Perhaps.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 103,034
    fox327 said:

    I believe that wearing a mask should be a personal choice. I will not be voting for a party at the next general election if most of its MPs are wearing masks in the House of Commons chamber.

    Indeed, legally mask wearing is personal choice now everywhere apart from the London Underground.

    If you have been double vaccinated that is the main thing
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,112

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    A quick glance at the Coronvirus website tells me that on the 17th April 9.9m at had their second jabs.

    So 9.9million have had all week to book (even have their booster jabs).

    Yet if you look at the top level numbers only 360 people have had booster jabs - now that figure makes no sense but vaccinations given less first dose total less second dose total =360.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    What I suspect is happening is that booster vaccinations aren't being recorded but it's clear that given over 10million people are eligible for booster shots nothing like that number have had them.


    It's my understanding from looking at the data that they aren't displaying booster shots on the dashboard or putting them in the data feed.

    I've got a question for them on that and the issue about children's 1st and only shots....
    From a response from the dashboard team - "Work is in progress to obtain the booster data for all four UK nations and it will be added to the dashboard as soon as we have it."
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,512
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    So the news this morning is blaming people for not taking up their booster shots. Well one solution as raised yesterday by @IanB2 , @GIN1138 and myself is to let us book the bloody thing then in advance. It is daft that you can't book it unless you are passed the 6 month date so it isn't 6 months then is it, it is 6m+

    But you wouldn’t have been able to actually have the booster yet would you? I’m surprised that it’s lack of demand.
    I can have it next week but can't book it so it won't be next week then.

    This means we are actually over 6m before getting it. That wouldn't be an issue if they weren't complaining about lack of take up. They are generating that lack of take up. This is the same issue with a number of friends of mine and @GIN1138 who told the same story last night re his mother.

    It is frustrating that they are complaining about lack of take up yet are generating the problem themselves.
    I've heard it was 6 months and a week. Plus you may well be able to book for the next day when you get the chance. Be patient?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885

    Good morning, my fellow database entry units.

    At least it's dry this morning. Good game of cricket last night, but I'm sure Scotland will struggle when they come up against the really big boys.

    Morning OKC, sun shining again in God's country.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,489
    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.

    Three health stories in a week - gives up drink, ni, hospital.

    I greatly fear we are being prepared for bad news.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,693
    HYUFD said:

    Alec Baldwin fatally shoot a woman on a film set in New Mexico after the misfiring of a prop gun with blanks.


    Tragic story

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59005500

    I wonder how the props assistant feels about it.

  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,163

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Death's spiking? Did he actually bother to look at the stats? (QTWTAIN)

    Does he also realise that unlike earlier in the pandemic we have almost no restrictions? It is a different phase. Everyone is going to be exposed to it unless they take significant precautions. We have to trust the vaccines and get jabbed as soon as we can.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,416
    Mr. G, it is! I didn't know you were in Yorkshire.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,012
    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.

    Been described as "in good spirits". That generally means you're completely fucked. cf Phil the Greek.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,489
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
    Are you aware of any breakdown of those in hospital between the vaccinated and the terminally stupid?
    What do you say to someone such as my audiologist's clerk who is unvaccinated because, she says, she can't have it for health reasons? When I enquired further she said "I can't have any vaccination because I have a phobia about being injected".
    If you are not her gp you had no business "enquiring further." Did she word it as I have a phobia of pricks?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,112
    HYUFD said:

    Alec Baldwin fatally shoot a woman on a film set in New Mexico after the misfiring of a prop gun with blanks.


    Tragic story

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59005500

    Because film makers want a "real" muzzle flash, they use real guns, with blanks. Anything that gets stuck in the barrel becomes a projectile.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,482
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.

    Three health stories in a week - gives up drink, ni, hospital.

    I greatly fear we are being prepared for bad news.
    Did you see her Secretary's response to the Oldie Magazine which wanted to give her an award for an older person who had materially contributed to public life? He explained that her Majesty believed that you were only as old as you feel and on that basis she did not meet the criteria for the award.
  • MaxPB said:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/economy/trucking-short-drivers/index.html

    Brexit, destroying the American supply chain too.

    I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that Brexit is the only reason there are supply chain issues. Pretending it hasn't been a significant contributory factor doesn't help anyone and makes those who do pretend as such look very foolish. The best that said apologists might say is that the way this hopeless government has implemented Brexit has made it significantly worse than it needed to be.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,115
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.

    Three health stories in a week - gives up drink, ni, hospital.

    I greatly fear we are being prepared for bad news.
    I missed the bit about alcohol. She went in for "preliminary" checks. Seems a strange word to use. What checks next, and why.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,470
    AlistairM said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Death's spiking? Did he actually bother to look at the stats? (QTWTAIN)

    Does he also realise that unlike earlier in the pandemic we have almost no restrictions? It is a different phase. Everyone is going to be exposed to it unless they take significant precautions. We have to trust the vaccines and get jabbed as soon as we can.
    It's become clear for a while that those who supported lockdowns and other authoritarian measures "just until we have vaccines" were either flat out lying or terminally stupid.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,163
    NZ cases are now rapidly rising with a new record of 129 cases and they have now probably reached the point where they no longer have the resources to effectively track infections.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-129-cases-as-pm-unveils-road-map-out-of-lockdown/VEU6XHEZHJJ23QRCHD3LKA72RM/

    They have reached good levels of vaccination but they have a choice to make. Do they live in some kind of ongoing lockdown or do they open up with the cases and deaths which will come with it?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,470
    edited October 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Eric panicking - always a good sign - though he omits to mention that Wales has the mask-social distancing-vaccine passport restrictions advocated as a solution to Tory England (with lower case rate) "disaster":

    BAD SIGN—Something really bad happening in UK —especially notable in Wales — where hospitalization for #COVID19 surging back near record—but for first time since vaccine rollout—DEATHS SPIKING now as well. Possibly new Delta sub variant. Watching. https://bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58973788

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1451442779641557033?s=20

    Despite cases and hospital admissions in Scotland being flat numbers in hospital and (crucially) numbers on ventilators have risen strongly upwards over the last few days.
    Are you aware of any breakdown of those in hospital between the vaccinated and the terminally stupid?
    What do you say to someone such as my audiologist's clerk who is unvaccinated because, she says, she can't have it for health reasons? When I enquired further she said "I can't have any vaccination because I have a phobia about being injected".
    If you are not her gp you had no business "enquiring further." Did she word it as I have a phobia of pricks?
    Perhaps "enquired further " was a bit strong - I think I raised a quizzical eyebrow.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,112
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    On berserker policemen, remember that this is in part due to an established. At about the time I was stopped and searched for looking like a terrorist by looking at the local area map in Kings Cross Station for 60 seconds, these also happened:

    15 year old school pupil stopped and searched outside Wimbledon Station, when he was doing a school project. Threatened with detention.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081995/Schoolboy-15-held-terror-suspect-taking-photos-railway-station-GCSE-project.html

    The too tall terrorist. Photos in the street. Arrested because at 5'11' a policewoman felt "threatened" by him. About 30% of the male population are of that height.
    https://www.theregister.com/2009/07/22/kent_police/

    As a contrast, some years ago, a City of London policeman got curious in my photography... I was the only non tourist taking photos.

    Instead of the whole heavy handed approach, he wandered up and started a conversation.

    Since I had obviously read the same book, I immediately understood he was using the Israeli technique of profiling with some conversational questions.

    We chatted for a minute, then he wandered off.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,127
    Johnson's lock down/Plan B dilemma (with apologies to Christina Aguilera)

    Lock down, Let rip?
    Ohh, whow

    You feel like you've been locked up tight
    For a century of lonely nights
    Waiting for someone to release you
    I'm lickin' my lips
    And blowing kisses your way
    But that don't mean I'm gonna give it away
    Baby, baby, baby (Baby baby baby...)

    Ooohhh, medics are sayin' plan B
    Ooohhh, but my heart is sayin' let's see

    If I wanna win again
    Then I've gotta save the day
    I'm a Boris in a pickle
    You gotta advise me the right way

    If you're gonna stick with me
    It will make my wish come true
    I want another big majority (Oh yeah)
    So please like what I do

    (I'm a Boris in a pickle baby
    Gotta call this the right way honey
    I'm a Boris in a pickle baby
    Lock lock, lock down or let you out?)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,477
    HYUFD said:

    fox327 said:

    I believe that wearing a mask should be a personal choice. I will not be voting for a party at the next general election if most of its MPs are wearing masks in the House of Commons chamber.

    Indeed, legally mask wearing is personal choice now everywhere apart from the London Underground.

    If you have been double vaccinated that is the main thing
    Masks wearing isn't a legal requirement on the underground and people who don't wear them aren't breaking the law. It's in the terms of carriage so the worst that can happen is people can be asked to leave.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,758
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    A quick glance at the Coronvirus website tells me that on the 17th April 9.9m at had their second jabs.

    So 9.9million have had all week to book (even have their booster jabs).

    Yet if you look at the top level numbers only 360 people have had booster jabs - now that figure makes no sense but vaccinations given less first dose total less second dose total =360.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    What I suspect is happening is that booster vaccinations aren't being recorded but it's clear that given over 10million people are eligible for booster shots nothing like that number have had them.

    Where is that 360 number from, please?

    This press release from the NHS on October 15th (a week ago) says that at that date it was 3.1 million in 4 weeks, so probably 4 million now.

    More than three million top up COVID-19 jabs have been delivered in just four weeks, as the NHS vaccination rollout continues to protect those most at risk from coronavirus.

    A total of 3.1 million top ups have been administered with two in five people aged 50 and over who are eligible already coming forward for their extra jab.

    More than a third of health and care workers who are eligible have also had their booster vaccine.

    England’s top GP and deputy lead for the NHS COVID-19 vaccine programme, Dr Nikki Kanani, is one of the three million people to have received her booster vaccine and urged others to get their top up protection ahead of winter.

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/2021/10/nhs-delivers-over-three-million-covid-boosters-in-first-month/

    Is this a terminology thing? Topup vs booster. My surgery distiguishes between the two.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,107
    edited October 2021
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's become very clear this morning that the slow take up of boosters is lack of demand, not supply.
    The government is now apparently planning an advertising campaign... a month or so too late.

    A quick glance at the Coronvirus website tells me that on the 17th April 9.9m at had their second jabs.

    So 9.9million have had all week to book (even have their booster jabs).

    Yet if you look at the top level numbers only 360 people have had booster jabs - now that figure makes no sense but vaccinations given less first dose total less second dose total =360.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    What I suspect is happening is that booster vaccinations aren't being recorded but it's clear that given over 10million people are eligible for booster shots nothing like that number have had them.

    Where is that 360 number from, please?

    This press release from the NHS on October 15th (a week ago) says that at that date it was 3.1 million in 4 weeks, so probably 4 million now.

    More than three million top up COVID-19 jabs have been delivered in just four weeks, as the NHS vaccination rollout continues to protect those most at risk from coronavirus.

    A total of 3.1 million top ups have been administered with two in five people aged 50 and over who are eligible already coming forward for their extra jab.

    More than a third of health and care workers who are eligible have also had their booster vaccine.

    England’s top GP and deputy lead for the NHS COVID-19 vaccine programme, Dr Nikki Kanani, is one of the three million people to have received her booster vaccine and urged others to get their top up protection ahead of winter.

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/2021/10/nhs-delivers-over-three-million-covid-boosters-in-first-month/

    Is this a terminology thing? Topup vs booster. My surgery distiguishes between the two.
    Literally from the coronavirus data front page.

    Total vaccinations - first doses - second doses = 360 vaccines.

    And given that 8.9 million had their second vaccinations by April 15th - there is a lot of a shortfall. Heck even if you look at the data for April 8th (so 6 month wait and 1 week for the vaccination) they've done less than 50% of those eligible for a booster.

    We should be doing 2-3million boosters a week at the moment and it seems that we aren't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,115
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, 95-yr old woman "back at her desk" after hospital check ups.

    Been described as "in good spirits". That generally means you're completely fucked. cf Phil the Greek.
    When the Princess of Hearts was in that car crash doctors described her condition as "grave" and I said oh well that's ok then she'll be fine. To which a doctor friend of mine said no, "grave" means it's all over, might already be.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,479

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    So the news this morning is blaming people for not taking up their booster shots. Well one solution as raised yesterday by @IanB2 , @GIN1138 and myself is to let us book the bloody thing then in advance. It is daft that you can't book it unless you are passed the 6 month date so it isn't 6 months then is it, it is 6m+

    But you wouldn’t have been able to actually have the booster yet would you? I’m surprised that it’s lack of demand.
    I can have it next week but can't book it so it won't be next week then.

    This means we are actually over 6m before getting it. That wouldn't be an issue if they weren't complaining about lack of take up. They are generating that lack of take up. This is the same issue with a number of friends of mine and @GIN1138 who told the same story last night re his mother.

    It is frustrating that they are complaining about lack of take up yet are generating the problem themselves.
    I've heard it was 6 months and a week. Plus you may well be able to book for the next day when you get the chance. Be patient?
    It is not a case of being patient and you can't book in for the next day by all accounts. In Gins case his mother is now booked in for December, several of my friends are well over a month later. That wouldn't be an issue if it was because of a backlog, but it isn't. They can't come on the radio and complain about people not taking up the booster if they are actually blocking them from doing so and this may cause an unnecessary blockage down the line when there is a good uptake of the 50 year olds.

    One positive bit of feedback is that I have heard of GPs doing it properly and booking in advance so you get it on or soon after the 6m date, but as reported this morning many of those that did it before are not now because they are overloaded with flu jabs.

    It is ludicrous that you can't book in advance for a booster for just after the 6 month date so as to prevent a blockage later, when now they have people twiddling their thumbs and plenty of vaccine.
  • MaxPB said:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/economy/trucking-short-drivers/index.html

    Brexit, destroying the American supply chain too.

    *giggles*. So America is has the same number of truck drivers short as the GB does. And we're a quarter of their size? So the Britxit impact which makes our truck driver shortage far more acute than the same in the EU is definitely not Brexit related and look - an American squirrel!
This discussion has been closed.