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The message is getting through to CON MPs and more are wearing masks – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 21 in General
imageThe message is getting through to CON MPs and more are wearing masks – politicalbetting.com

In one or two posts this week I have been critical of Tory MPs for, in the main, not wearing masks in the chamber.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,831
    First - yet again!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,017
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,742

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
    I'm sure the JCVI will take months over it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,749
    https://twitter.com/alanasemuels/status/1451293071384055808

    The Port of LA tells me there are 75 container ships waiting offshore right now. If that's not an all-time record, it's close.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Not many Tory MP's on the Metro this evening then.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,831
    FPT:
    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    https://twitter.com/alanasemuels/status/1451293071384055808

    The Port of LA tells me there are 75 container ships waiting offshore right now. If that's not an all-time record, it's close.

    Brexit strikes again...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,831
    dixiedean said:

    Not many Tory MP's on the Metro this evening then.

    Or ever, I suspect.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,017
    edited October 21
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
    I'm sure the JCVI will take months over it.
    The sociopath in me suggests a portrait of the JCVI, using the methodology exposed by Morgan Le Fay, for photography, in "A Connecticut Yankee At King Arthurs Court".....
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    A couple of epi-forecasting predictions I find fairly implausible for the UK right now:

    - Daily covid case numbers going up for much longer
    - Daily covid case numbers ever reaching 100k


    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1451288702454583300?s=20

    This is good, but I’m not sure it will make that much difference to the pressures on the NHS. 7 day average covid admissions are 868 per day. Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…

    https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1451291277929103367?s=20

    "Latest average all cause admissions are from April- August 2021 & are 17,000 a day. So covid likely represents ~5% of daily admissions…"

    Without data on how long people are likely to be in hospital, that statistic could be very misleading.

    Imagine if the average stay in hospital for all non-Covid causes was one day, and for Covid it was 30 days. If that were the case (and I'm sure it's not I'm just exaggerating to make my point), then 60% of all the people in hospital would be there with Covid, even though they only accounted for 5% of admissions.
    This is a seriously good point.
    It’s a good point, but of course we know how many are in hospital with Covid. It’s reported on the dashboard (although a fifth have Covid, but are there for something else). I’m not sure if the total patient number though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited October 21
    If they have been double vaccinated who really cares, that will protect them and reduce the spread far more than wearing a mask. Mask wearing should be personal choice as it is everywhere else in the country except the London Underground.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,742
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    I would have chosen Theresa May. She was conscientious and with a scientific background.
    Like most others I'd put Johnson last.

    If she hadn't been so arrogant and If Corbyn had a chance of winning I'd have voted Tory for the first time in my life in 2017.

    I thought she was the closest thing to Angela Merkel we've had and Merkel has to be the best European leader ever

    Could you explain how Merkel making Germany reliant on Russian gas was a good idea?
    How is an additional pipeline into Germany making them more reliant on Russian gas?
    That might not but shutting down the nuclear plants without figuring out an alternative has.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
    I'm sure the JCVI will take months over it.
    The sociopath in me suggests a portrait of the JCVI, using the methodology exposed by Morgan Le Fay, for photography, in "A Connecticut Yankee At King Arthurs Court".....
    Too niche for me! Explain?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    Robert Jenrick says ministers have been willing to turn a 'blind eye' to extremism

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1451285991768080391?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,017

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
    I'm sure the JCVI will take months over it.
    The sociopath in me suggests a portrait of the JCVI, using the methodology exposed by Morgan Le Fay, for photography, in "A Connecticut Yankee At King Arthurs Court".....
    Too niche for me! Explain?
    Some prisoners are being released at the behest of the Yankee...


    When I brought my procession of human bats up into the open world and the glare of the afternoon sun-previously blindfolding them, in charity for eyes so long untortured by light-they were a spectacle to look at. Skeletons, scarecrows, goblins, pathetic frights, every one; legitimatest possible children of Monarchy by the Grace of God and the Established Church. I muttered absently:

    "I wish I could photograph them!"

    You have seen that kind of people who will never let on that they don't know the meaning of a new big word. The more ignorant they are, the more pitifully certain they are to pretend you haven't shot over their heads. The queen was just one of that sort, and was always making the stupidest blunders by reason of it. She hesitated a moment; then her face brightened up with sudden comprehension, and she said she would do it for me.

    I thought to myself: She? why what can she know about photography? But it was a poor time to be thinking. When I looked around, she was moving on the procession with an axe!

    Well, she certainly was a curious one, was Morgan le Fay. I have seen a good many kinds of women in my time, but she laid over them all for variety. And how sharply characteristic of her this episode was. She had no more idea than a horse of how to photograph a procession; but being in doubt, it was just like her to try to do it with an axe.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,017
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    I would have chosen Theresa May. She was conscientious and with a scientific background.
    Like most others I'd put Johnson last.

    If she hadn't been so arrogant and If Corbyn had a chance of winning I'd have voted Tory for the first time in my life in 2017.

    I thought she was the closest thing to Angela Merkel we've had and Merkel has to be the best European leader ever

    Could you explain how Merkel making Germany reliant on Russian gas was a good idea?
    How is an additional pipeline into Germany making them more reliant on Russian gas?
    That might not but shutting down the nuclear plants without figuring out an alternative has.
    That didn't help.

    The real issue with Nord Stream 2, is that it allows Putin & Co to shut off gas in Eastern Europe while keeping the lights on in Germany. So he can blackmail Europe in sections.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 273
    dixiedean said:

    Not many Tory MP's on the Metro this evening then.

    The Metro is a free newspaper. I think you mean the tube or the underground.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    edited October 21
    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    20 year age bands don't help for analysis, but going through over the course of the pandemic the age deaths breakdown (England) is as follows, at a crude rate of 157.6 deaths per day.

    0 - 19 0.07%
    20 - 39 0.82%
    40 - 59 7.61%
    60 - 79 38.54%
    80+ 52.97%

    Between 2010 and 2018, excluding 0 year old deaths, the general breakdown for deaths is, at a crude rate of 1396.2 deaths per day. The average age of death is ~ 78.

    0.36%
    1.73%
    8.39%
    33.76%
    55.76%

    In the second half of 2021, the death breakdown for Covid is, (At a crude rate of 62.7 deaths per day)

    0.30%
    2.08%
    12.34%
    41.89%
    43.39%

    The average age of death is younger than it was at the start of the pandemic, perhaps around 4 years (79 -> 75) though it's hard to be accurate with 20 year banded age stats.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Shame to see the Government fold for this virtue signalling bullshit. The Labour Party never bothered to wear masks at their own shindig because they know its bollocks.

    Shame on them for folding to this pressure so easily.
    image

    They did though. That's the Tory response to covid in a nutshell, always weeks behind playing catch up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Xtrain said:

    dixiedean said:

    Not many Tory MP's on the Metro this evening then.

    The Metro is a free newspaper. I think you mean the tube or the underground.
    There are always plenty of discarded Metros strewn across the Metro.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,749
    edited October 21
    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
    I’m a total novice in this kind of thing, but I can’t shake the suspicion that most middle class drug takers (eg cocaine) spare zero fucks that 250,000 have died in Mexico related to drugs, but get really wound up by Iraq/oil.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,327
    Birmingham and Newark counting tonight; Horsham tomorrow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
    It is excellent

    And yes, I saw that news about Trump. It’s one of those occasions when you think OK he’s crazy but maybe he’s got a point

    Only a large, organised, pretty brutal army can save Mexico, as far as I can see. Mexico cannot save itself. The cartels are gaining power, the violence worsens, and they threaten to destabilise the entirety of Latin America. And menace the USA

    At some point America will have to react
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,017
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Well, the problem with having a coup is that who do you have a coup against?

    The narcos will simply kill & bribe any force opposed to them until they are ineffective.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,327
    Ind gain in Newark.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    edited October 21
    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Amazing stuff. I've watched it.

    Naively I kind assumed it was all a bit relatively ancient history whilst watching.

    Edit: presume you mean the Narcos - Mexico series?

    There was an original Narcos that was Escobar and Col.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,395
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
    It is excellent

    And yes, I saw that news about Trump. It’s one of those occasions when you think OK he’s crazy but maybe he’s got a point

    Only a large, organised, pretty brutal army can save Mexico, as far as I can see. Mexico cannot save itself. The cartels are gaining power, the violence worsens, and they threaten to destabilise the entirety of Latin America. And menace the USA

    At some point America will have to react
    The guy off Rogue One should have stuck to selling Weed
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    HYUFD said:

    If they have been double vaccinated who really cares, that will protect them and reduce the spread far more than wearing a mask. Mask wearing should be personal choice as it is everywhere else in the country except the London Underground.

    A lot of people I know have already had 3 jabs. Should we have lockdowns because some people have refused to have even one?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,476

    Shame to see the Government fold for this virtue signalling bullshit. The Labour Party never bothered to wear masks at their own shindig because they know its bollocks.

    Shame on them for folding to this pressure so easily.
    image

    I feel like signalling virtuous behaviour is one of the jobs the government has, like if it's useful for people to wear masks indoors, MPs should be setting an example by wearing masks indoors, particularly when they're likely to be on national television.

    Am I wrong? I mean, this just seems obvious to me.
    I do think there has been some games played here. The Torres collectively seem pretty anti mask, while labour seems pro, but much more so in the chamber than in their conference. Of course they can talk about testing requirements for entry and ventilation etc, but political parties play politics. It’s what they do, and you can’t blame them.
    Re the current U.K. situation, the bulk of the cases are in the U18’s, and then their parents. There is a panic going on about cases, but the cases will start dropping soon, and without a need for restrictions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
    I’m a total novice in this kind of thing, but I can’t shake the suspicion that most middle class drug takers (eg cocaine) spare zero fucks that 250,000 have died in Mexico related to drugs, but get really wound up by Iraq/oil.
    But it’s not just cocaine now. That’s an old fashioned perspective, to be frank

    The cartels have taken over heroin, and also synthetic drugs: meth, fentanyl. They’re the people filling America’s streets with opioid loons

    As I say, the USA must soon be pro-active rather than reactive
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Amazing stuff. I've watched it.

    Naively I kind assumed it was all a bit relatively ancient history whilst watching.

    Edit: presume you mean the Narcos - Mexico series?

    There was an original Narcos that was Escobar and Col.
    I’ve seen both. And both are really good, the newer Mexican one is probably superior

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    edited October 21
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    According to wiki the ongoing major wars & insurgencies are currently

    Country/Death toll/year

    Yemen, 233k+, 2014
    Syria, 500-600k+, 2011
    Nigeria (Boko Haram), 350k+, 2009
    Democratic Republic Congo (Kivu), 100k+, 2004
    Sudan (Darfur), 300k+, 2003
    Mexico, 150-250k, 2006

    The underreporting of the goings on in Africa & Mexico is quite something
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,580
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    slade said:

    Ind gain in Newark.

    Jenrick - the tide is turning?

    Best stick to Herefordshire.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,526
    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Amazing stuff. I've watched it.

    Naively I kind assumed it was all a bit relatively ancient history whilst watching.

    Edit: presume you mean the Narcos - Mexico series?

    There was an original Narcos that was Escobar and Col.
    I’ve seen both. And both are really good, the newer Mexican one is probably superior

    I dunno, I kind of liked the nonchalant way Wagner Moura plays Pablo Escobar in the original.

    Although iirc he turns up on occasion in Narcos- Mex
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
    I reckon the present ‘drug war’ can now be called a ‘civil war’

    A mighty and powerful force is trying to overthrow the Mexican government, or, at least, make the government its own meaningless puppet. And they are reasonably close to winning, and 250,000 are dead and many more displaced

    How is that not a ‘civil war’?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited October 21
    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Amazing stuff. I've watched it.

    Naively I kind assumed it was all a bit relatively ancient history whilst watching.

    Edit: presume you mean the Narcos - Mexico series?

    There was an original Narcos that was Escobar and Col.
    I’ve seen both. And both are really good, the newer Mexican one is probably superior

    I dunno, I kind of liked the nonchalant way Wagner Moura plays Pablo Escobar in the original.

    Although iirc he turns up on occasion in Narcos- Mex
    Yes, it’s quite confusing

    He was superb as Escobar
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,580
    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
    I reckon the present ‘drug war’ can now be called a ‘civil war’

    A mighty and powerful force is trying to overthrow the Mexican government, or, at least, make the government its own meaningless puppet. And they are reasonably close to winning, and 250,000 are dead and many more displaced

    How is that not a ‘civil war’?
    I’m not disagreeing. I was just surprised Dixiedean thought Mexico hadn’t had any before.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    Does he mean gender? Or biological sex?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
    I reckon the present ‘drug war’ can now be called a ‘civil war’

    A mighty and powerful force is trying to overthrow the Mexican government, or, at least, make the government its own meaningless puppet. And they are reasonably close to winning, and 250,000 are dead and many more displaced

    How is that not a ‘civil war’?
    I think the "civil" in civil war is to distinguish the violence from simple criminality, that it has some aim beyond that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    Mexico needs someone like Putin, or maybe even Xi. An absolute autocrat, willing to kill thousands to stabilise the country. I don’t see any other way out for them, barring armed American intervention (unlikely)
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,327
    LD hold in Birmingham.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 885
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Narcos Mexico is a brilliant series.

    Trump apparently wanted to send US troops in to fight the drug cartels

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-send-troops-mexico-hunt-drug-cartels-2021-10
    It is excellent

    And yes, I saw that news about Trump. It’s one of those occasions when you think OK he’s crazy but maybe he’s got a point

    Only a large, organised, pretty brutal army can save Mexico, as far as I can see. Mexico cannot save itself. The cartels are gaining power, the violence worsens, and they threaten to destabilise the entirety of Latin America. And menace the USA

    At some point America will have to react
    It would help if the US started by banning the sale of guns.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,327
    slade said:

    LD hold in Birmingham.

    Virtually no change since 2018,
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461

    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    4h
    Drives centrist pundits potty but Cummings is sharp on many things. Ruthless focus on core politics & message, & ignoring confected daily 'crises', is something left must learn.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503

    https://twitter.com/alanasemuels/status/1451293071384055808

    The Port of LA tells me there are 75 container ships waiting offshore right now. If that's not an all-time record, it's close.

    It was beaten only by the number off shore during the Global Financial Crisis, where the storage facilities were all full, ship dayrates had collapsed to near zero and it was cheaper to pay the shipping companies to hang around offshore.

    Very different reason now - this is because there aren't enough people to unload the cargo.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    slade said:

    slade said:

    LD hold in Birmingham.

    Virtually no change since 2018,
    which bit?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    edited October 21
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    I would have chosen Theresa May. She was conscientious and with a scientific background.
    Like most others I'd put Johnson last.

    If she hadn't been so arrogant and If Corbyn had a chance of winning I'd have voted Tory for the first time in my life in 2017.

    I thought she was the closest thing to Angela Merkel we've had and Merkel has to be the best European leader ever

    Could you explain how Merkel making Germany reliant on Russian gas was a good idea?
    How is an additional pipeline into Germany making them more reliant on Russian gas?
    That might not but shutting down the nuclear plants without figuring out an alternative has.
    But Germany's natural gas usage has actually fallen (unlike the UK) in the last 15 years. It's gone from 120TwH per year to 92TwH.

    Nuclear is being replaced - mostly - by a combination of renewables and cheap (and highly polluting) lignite.

    (Plus, of course, overall Germany electricity demand has fallen.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    Another sobering even horrifying article: on the meth-P2P-homeless-schizophrenia turmoil in America’s cities, esp the west coast. Just published

    Eeesh

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
    I meant recently.
    Have a sneaking admiration for the PRI. Things arguably went really tits up when they let others win. :)
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    Which side are you on?
    An important question.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    I would have chosen Theresa May. She was conscientious and with a scientific background.
    Like most others I'd put Johnson last.

    If she hadn't been so arrogant and If Corbyn had a chance of winning I'd have voted Tory for the first time in my life in 2017.

    I thought she was the closest thing to Angela Merkel we've had and Merkel has to be the best European leader ever

    Could you explain how Merkel making Germany reliant on Russian gas was a good idea?
    How is an additional pipeline into Germany making them more reliant on Russian gas?
    That might not but shutting down the nuclear plants without figuring out an alternative has.
    That didn't help.

    The real issue with Nord Stream 2, is that it allows Putin & Co to shut off gas in Eastern Europe while keeping the lights on in Germany. So he can blackmail Europe in sections.
    It's a bit more complicated than that.

    It also means that Ukraine has no power over Russia. Previously, it recieved a toll for the gas that passed through, and it could threaten Russia with cutting off their gas exports to Europe.

    So, the people who really get screwed by Nord Stream 2 are the Ukranians.

    I'm not so convinced about Eastern Europe, though. The Baltics have a gas interconnector with Finland, and their own LNG import terminal, specifically to avoid Russia being able to turn off the gas. (Curiously, it was always planned for Finland to be able to export gas to Estonia, but the Estonians did a great job of buying LNG cargoes, and have made out like banditos selling gas to the Finns.)

    Poland also has a large LNG import terminal at Swinoujscie, which it is the process of expanding.

    For the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary, they're on the main European Entsog natural gas network, and they have relatively diversified natural gas purchase agreements.

    Last thing... Germany now looks like it also building an LNG import terminal at Hamburg, so the whole of Europe (including the UK) is much more secure in its long term gas supplies than has previously been the case.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    CatMan said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    Or they could legalize the drugs they're selling and completly destory their businesses overnight
    That is a much more efficient response.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    rpjs said:

    Leon said:

    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Watching Narcos

    Startling fact. 250,000 have died in the Mexican drug wars

    That’s more than died in the Afghan wars of 2001-2021

    And still Mexico burns

    Rather remarkable Mexico hasn't had a coup, revolution or Civil War (though arguably this is one).
    Somehow it struggles on. So far from God. So close to the United States.
    Er, its had all of those things. (Unless you mean “recently”.) Mike Duncan’s Revolutions podcast has covered the Mexican Revolution / civil war of 1910-1920 in depth (and arguably it wasn’t really over for another decade or two).
    I reckon the present ‘drug war’ can now be called a ‘civil war’

    A mighty and powerful force is trying to overthrow the Mexican government, or, at least, make the government its own meaningless puppet. And they are reasonably close to winning, and 250,000 are dead and many more displaced

    How is that not a ‘civil war’?
    I’m not disagreeing. I was just surprised Dixiedean thought Mexico hadn’t had any before.
    I was referring to this century. And in particular to the loosening of the iron grip of the PRI.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    Mexico needs someone like Putin, or maybe even Xi. An absolute autocrat, willing to kill thousands to stabilise the country. I don’t see any other way out for them, barring armed American intervention (unlikely)
    Or the legalisation of drugs in the US.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    Don Winslow's The Power of the Dog is an absolutely fantastic novel based around the rise of the Mexican cartels. I *highly* recommend it.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    Re the header. What market rules is OGH talking about and, since the header does not otherwise mention betting, why?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    Which side are you on?
    An important question.
    It might just be me, but I think killing your opponents and critics, while embezzling billions as you cut your citizens' pensions, is more monstrous.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,924

    Scott_xP said:

    Evening all. I have been offline this week, and I shall be offline some more. Do not be alarmed. Feel free to party :)

    I. for one, have sorely missed your Brexit-related tweets, Scott. :)
    Yes its always best to read the unrealistic and the plain barmy comments from un-likeminded posters on the site. Its largely a question of stance.Lots of people think my defence aagainst some of the downright nasty comments about Boris as barmy...
    Poor Boris.....but you'll get over him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnFlx2Lnr9Q
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    Ban guns legalise drugs.
    Crackdown on homelessness by providing a home. That'll do it,
    I may appear like Lennon, but I ain't smart enough to be Dylan. And who is?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    4h
    Drives centrist pundits potty but Cummings is sharp on many things. Ruthless focus on core politics & message, & ignoring confected daily 'crises', is something left must learn.

    One thing Cummings isn't is "focused". He needs an editor badly.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The next big move would be to remove the age restrictions on booster doses and offer them to everyone 5 months after their second dose. We could conceivably get ~35m people triple jabbed before Xmas. Using my friend's suggestion of 18 weeks would make 41m people eligible by December 20th, getting 35m of those people vaccinated with three doses would be pretty easy IMO and would push us beyond the herd immunity threshold as a nation.

    The flaw is that young may push out the oldsters who really may need this to stop hospitalisation.

    Not really we've got something like 25m Moderna and Pfizer vaccine doses in the country and there's still another 30m Pfizer doses to be delivered this year.
    Strangely, the purchases were made with the aim of having more than one further dose per head of vaccinatable population.....

    Has anyone started asking about 5-11 year olds, yet?
    Andrew
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    edited October 21
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    The Virginia governor election is something I've no interest in and have not looked at, but over the past few days, some PBers have suggested McAuliffe is losing support and that Youngkin can win, yet the betting is roughly 1/3, 3/1. That's not a tip, just saying there might be something there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    And stop the CIA running drugs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    (Reading it now)

    I don't disagree.

    Legalise things that are merely bad for you, and criminalise (and punish *users* severely) for stuff that is more problematic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,635
    HYUFD said:

    Putin slams 'monstrous' West for teaching children they can change their gender, the Russian President saying it is close to a 'crime against humanity' as Russia remains as anti Woke as ever
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10117735/Vladimir-Putin-slams-monstrous-West-teaching-children-change-gender.html

    You have some very strange role models.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    FPT:

    I think a big division here is between people who think the response to this pandemic hasn't been authoritarian enough - and people who think its been too authoritarian. I fall very much now under the latter category, so while I have a lot to criticise Boris over (and think he lifted lockdown-3 months too late), I think all other PM's apart from Thatcher would have handled the pandemic worse.

    If I was to rate the PM's in order I'd say Thatcher first, then Boris. Then Cameron - he always took the NHS seriously given his own personal concerns and I'd be worried he'd go too far down the "protect the NHS" road, but I think Osborne would have been able to keep him in check. Without Osborne by his side I'd be much more worried about Cameron.

    Major just middling.

    Then my rogue's gallery would be Brown, then May and absolutely worst of all Blair.

    Overall as a PM I'd have Blair ahead of Major, Brown and May. But Blair would have been horrendous in this. Even without a pandemic he was prepared to detain people for 90 days without charge. Even without a pandemic he wanted to introduce ID Cards. Under the cover of the pandemic he'd have introduced ID Cards and other restrictions that he tried to push through but failed and the Civil Service would have made them permanent.

    The best person who should be trusted with authoritarian powers is someone who doesn't want to wield them. That's one of the things that makes Boris one of the best possible PMs for this pandemic - and it make Blair the worst possible choice. Even worse than May or Brown.

    Does anyone really think the response hasn't been authoritarian enough?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,861
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,924
    HYUFD said:

    If they have been double vaccinated who really cares, that will protect them and reduce the spread far more than wearing a mask. Mask wearing should be personal choice as it is everywhere else in the country except the London Underground.

    Is it also voluntary on the tube systems in Newcastle and Glasgow?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
    Good food, decent public transport, bit humid in summer, and a bit small, but it's an easy place to like. I'd very happily live in Singapore for a couple of years.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Read that Atlantic article on the latest synthetic drugs. You can’t legalise them. They’re too addictive, potent and dangerous: they literally turn people into schizophrenics, within weeks

    I used to be a legaliser. Now I’m not

    The only countries that have cracked this are the zero tolerance countries. East Asia. Severe sentences and the death penalty.

    The only man to control the Mafia was Mussolini. He did it by killing thousands, often innocent

    A terrible crime. But the drugs problem has reached a stage where alternatives are worse. 250,000 have died already, in Mexico alone
    Reading the story, the simple solution seems to be to legalise ephedrine based meth, and to criminalise and harshly penalise P2P meth.
    I doubt that would work. But I doubt we have the stomach, in the West, for a Singapore solution. So who knows

    In all my life I’ve never known a time like this, where the forces of global evil seem so strong, on so many fronts, and the good guys seem so divided and helpless
    Why don't you move to Singapore then? I'll help you pack.
    Thanks. If it weren’t for fam and friends I’d quite happily live in Singapore
    Good food, decent public transport, bit humid in summer, and a bit small, but it's an easy place to like. I'd very happily live in Singapore for a couple of years.
    I wouldn't like to live anywhere where I couldn't say certain political arguments.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    edited October 22
    Visited Singapore once, in September 2009. They hadn't yet built the amazing hotel with the swimming pool resting on three towers. Wouldn't mind staying there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    It doesn't solve the fundamental issue: there's so much money in illegal drugs, that people are prepared to risk imprisonment and death.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Andy_JS said:

    It's sobering when you think of how well things were going in Latin/South America in the first half of the 20th century. Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the 1930s for instance.

    Although that was because it was a commodity exporter, not because it had decent indigenous industries. It's very easy to be (at least temporarily) rich if you are able to export something the world needs, without any of that tedious work shit.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    edited October 22
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    Unless there are any Pakistani weddings in the vicinity. Those are always fair game for drones.

    ETA and that is always the trouble. Collateral damage. And edge cases. Is the chief torturer's chauffeur innocent?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A harrowing but necessary primer on the rise of the Jalisco cartel


    ‘García, whose son César Ulises disappeared in 2017 and has not been found, described the macabre routine of such relatives as they sifted through excavated remains for those they had loved and lost. “You see these things up on the screen and say to yourself: ‘That arm looks sort of familiar, that head.’ It’s just so terrible – the viciousness that we’re seeing in this state,” she said.

    ‘Nearby stood Cecilia Flores, 54, whose 28-year-old son, Wilians, was taken in 2019. Four months later officials told her some body parts had been recovered from a notorious torture house called El Mirador. “They found a hand, his torso and forearm. I’m still missing the other hand and his legs,” she said.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/02/jalisco-cartel-mexico-rise-guadalajara?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    In fiction the excellent Sicario touched on this although of course it was very watered down for cinema audiences.
    One of the most appalling aspects of this hideous conflict is that the cartel killers film all their sadism and butchery, and put it online. To terrorise, of course

    I’ve seen a few. They’re not hard to find. I don’t ever want to see any more. Maybe I shouldn’t have watched the few I did. But isn’t that itself a kind of cowardice? Looking away, averting the face, pretend it isn’t happening?

    Suffice to say they make the worst ISIS vids look… quaintly medieval
    To be honest I think the US should designate these cartels as terrorist groups and start droning the leaders and members.
    How did the War on Drugs work out last time?
    Apples and Oranges. The War on Drugs wasn't an actual war but an attempt at harsh criminalization at the point of purchase. What they actually need to do is military action at the source combined with legalization at the point of purchase. Start with giving American citizens the same protections as DEA Agents.
    If you legalise, you don't need to do any of that. Glaxo or Philip Morris aren't going to buy from cartels, they'll setup proper manufacturing facilities. The cartels would be out of business in weeks.

    And the US tried the "military attacks" on the cartels in the past. US forces (mostly via Dyncorp) attack coco crops directly in Colombia. And US forces have also engaged in raids in Mexico on cartels.

    None of it makes a difference, because the demand for illegal drugs is so enormous, and the money involved so vast, that all you do is shift it around. If (and it's a big if) you were able to kill all the cartel members in Mexico, all it would do is mean that prices rose (reduced supply), making bringing it in from Asia or growing it in Wyoming was worth the risk.

    If there is demand for an illegal product, there will be supply.

    Edit to add:

    If you really wanted to get rid of the cartels, start locking up middle class Americans for drug offences.
    I am not talking about stopping drug production with drones. I am meaning killing the violent types. Those who are non-violent remain unmolested.
    Unless there are any Pakistani weddings in the vicinity. Those are always fair game for drones.

    ETA and that is always the trouble. Collateral damage. And edge cases. Is the chief torturer's chauffeur innocent?

    Not to mention the fact that the drug cartels are completely paranoid with regards to security. It's not just the DEA they're avoiding, it's other cartels too.

    The idea that the US government knows where to find the bosses and could just snuff them out with a few helicopters of marines is ridiculous.
This discussion has been closed.